PDA

View Full Version : Shooting at Conn Elementary 27 dead including kids


Pages : [1] 2 3 4

gunns
12-14-2012, 10:18 AM
http://news.msn.com/us/children-among-dead-in-shooting-at-conn-school

Unbelievable

razorwire77
12-14-2012, 10:19 AM
Good God. At least 20 dead, including 10 children.

*Edit* Now the AP is saying 18 children dead.

Connecticut Bronco Fan
12-14-2012, 10:20 AM
I live pretty close to Newtown and some friends of mine have kids that go to Sandy Hook. This is awful.

Smiling Assassin27
12-14-2012, 10:25 AM
Hug your kids tonight. This is absolutely horrific.

Br0nc0Buster
12-14-2012, 10:28 AM
Has there been an increase in shootings, or is there just more coverage on them?

Wasnt there just a mall shooting like a week ago?

****

Heyneck
12-14-2012, 10:28 AM
awful... just awful! All from the range from 5-10. Sick ****ing people!!!

gunns
12-14-2012, 10:28 AM
It happens so often anymore it seems we are getting numb. But when it's kids it really strikes your heart. And this close to Christmas makes it even sadder. Just so depressing.

Finger Roll
12-14-2012, 10:33 AM
I live about 20 minutes away and have cousins who went to that school.

RedskinBronco
12-14-2012, 10:34 AM
unreal, you cannot go anywhere anymore.

SouthStndJunkie
12-14-2012, 10:37 AM
What a ****ing chicken****....why would you shoot innocent children like that?

Boobs McGee
12-14-2012, 10:38 AM
****ing people. This is just so sick and unnecessary. Prayers/thoughts to all involved

gunns
12-14-2012, 10:40 AM
They are saying it's a parent. A 20 year old

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 10:41 AM
why, God?

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
12-14-2012, 10:41 AM
wtf is wrong with some people these days . those are children.
has the world gone insane???

rideco
12-14-2012, 10:43 AM
This is just so sad. I am starting to believe that mandatory mental evaluation might be needed to purchase a gun in the future. I own guns and love them but we really need to start looking at different solutions.

Smiling Assassin27
12-14-2012, 10:45 AM
They are saying it's a parent. A 20 year old

Yeah, allegedly two shooters, one in custody and the other dead. Multiple shooters could point to something like a terrorist act.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 10:45 AM
This is just so sad. I am starting to believe that mandatory mental evaluation might be needed to purchase a gun in the future. I own guns and love them but we really need to start looking at different solutions.

They could do a lot of things to ensure that crazy people don't get guns. Unfortunately, they don't. I'd venture to say that there is a good portion of people who own a firearm that aren't trained well enough or have a good reason to have them other than trying to be "tough." This story is absolutely tragic. All incidents like this are, but these are little kids. Innocent to the world. Sad. Prayers for all.

crush17
12-14-2012, 10:47 AM
This is just so sad. I am starting to believe that mandatory mental evaluation might be needed to purchase a gun in the future. I own guns and love them but we really need to start looking at different solutions.

Ya think?

Broncomutt
12-14-2012, 10:48 AM
I'm was on the phone with a client in Connecticut from 11am to 11:30 this morning. In the background I heard a fire truck go by, then another, then another, then another, with what sounded like ambulances or police cars as well. Lasted the entire 30 minute conversation.

I asked jokingly if a nuclear bomb had gone off or something. He said he didn't know. I wonder if it was the response to this ****?

So sad.

enjolras
12-14-2012, 10:48 AM
wtf is wrong with some people these days . those are children.
has the world gone insane???

It's the end-result of a culture that embraces violence as a positive quality. We fight wars and wave flags. Our biggest movies are *about* violence. Our video games are by and large *about* violence. When I think about the world I was raised in, it's stunning.

So you put someone who is mentally on edge in that culture and then give them easy access to guns. What happens next is no surprise.

razorwire77
12-14-2012, 10:51 AM
I really try to view humanity in a positive light, but days like today make it hard.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 10:52 AM
crazy people happen. you've probably met an untold number of psychos over your lifetime. I'd personally DQ many from maintaining a firearm, but that's not gonna happen so the question turns to what can I do to protect myself and my loved ones from the inevitable loons I meet in society?

plus mental evaluations are notoriously subjective. there's no acid test for sanity.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 10:54 AM
It's the end-result of a culture that embraces violence as a positive quality. We fight wars and wave flags. Our biggest movies are *about* violence. Our video games are by and large *about* violence. When I think about the world I was raised in, it's stunning.

So you put someone who is mentally on edge in that culture and then give them easy access to guns. What happens next is no surprise.

I'm not really a fan of this line of thought. it's like when people blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine. the ****ers who shot up the place are the responsible party. you start singling out peripheral causes and pretty much the whole of human existence is on the table.

LonghornBronco
12-14-2012, 10:56 AM
Crazy ****ed up world we live in!

Requiem
12-14-2012, 10:58 AM
I'm not really a fan of this line of thought. it's like when people blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine. the ****ers who shot up the place are the responsible party. you start singling out peripheral causes and pretty much the whole of human existence is on the table.

Our culture does embrace violence. It is a FACT.

pootz22
12-14-2012, 11:02 AM
Absolutely sickening! Most kids are in one kindergarden class. Someone in school office turned onP/A system as principle was arguing with shooter. Saved lives. I live in rocky hill area 70 miles northeast.

Having a newborn, 4 & 7 yr olds, its absolutely horrifing

SonOfLe-loLang
12-14-2012, 11:02 AM
It's the end-result of a culture that embraces violence as a positive quality. We fight wars and wave flags. Our biggest movies are *about* violence. Our video games are by and large *about* violence. When I think about the world I was raised in, it's stunning.

So you put someone who is mentally on edge in that culture and then give them easy access to guns. What happens next is no surprise.

I def. think it has something to do with it. We, as a society, glorify it.

enjolras
12-14-2012, 11:03 AM
I'm not really a fan of this line of thought. it's like when people blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine. the ****ers who shot up the place are the responsible party. you start singling out peripheral causes and pretty much the whole of human existence is on the table.

This is the second mass shooting THIS FREAKING WEEK. There have been three of these in the last six months.

Something is clearly and unbelievably wrong. We're shooting up elementary schools now for crying out loud. Yes it was a crazy person, but you seriously don't think external cultural influences..you know, influence people?

The problem with the Marilyn Manson connection is that it's placing the blame on a specific figure. No one person is the problem, our collective obsession with violence is.

Ultimately the gunman is responsible but that and a nickel will net you a nickel and a bunch of dead kids. Until Americans accept that we've culturally gone way off the rails, this crap will keep happening.

I've lived and travelled extensively outside of this country. These incidents are extremely rare in Europe (where I have the most experience). Yes they do happen (see Norway), but one in the last decade is a pretty good track record compared to the madness we have.

Are we as Americans just more mentally unstable? Are we worse people? Or is there a cultural difference that keeps their crazy people from killing as many people as possible on a regular basis? Is it access to guns (which in Europe is pretty much non-existent)?

My wife works in a setting well known for it's issues with these types of shooting, and there isn't a day that goes by I don't worry about one of the idiots she deals with coming in and pointing that gun at her.

gunns
12-14-2012, 11:03 AM
Absolutely sickening! Most kids are in one kindergarden class. Someone in school office turned onP/A system as principle was arguing with shooter. Saved lives. I live in rocky hill area 70 miles northeast.

Having a newborn, 4 & 7 yr olds, its absolutely horrifing

With the reports that the parent was 20 years old, sense of dread it was his child's classroom adding to the horror

Pony Boy
12-14-2012, 11:03 AM
They could do a lot of things to ensure that crazy people don't get guns. Unfortunately, they don't. I'd venture to say that there is a good portion of people who own a firearm that aren't trained well enough or have a good reason to have them other than trying to be "tough." This story is absolutely tragic. All incidents like this are, but these are little kids. Innocent to the world. Sad. Prayers for all.

Sadly this is a reflection on the society we live in today. Citizens have been armed since the since the constitution was put on paper and made the law of the land. This type of violence could have happened 60 years ago but didn't because our moral fiber wasn't the same as today. Violent movies, video games and the lack of any kid of moral conscience plays a major factor in the world as we know it today.

ElwayMD
12-14-2012, 11:04 AM
Our culture does embrace violence. It is a FACT.

Most of us also understand that while we embrace violence, we don't try to recreate the violence we see on television, movies, video games, etc. It takes a disturbed individual to take a gun and shoot up an Elementary School.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 11:06 AM
Our culture does embrace violence. It is a FACT.

against children?!? I mean, I just don't see the connection of 'violent videogames = school shootings.' if there is, it's a superficial one and doesn't strike at the root of the problem, and without doing that the problem will just manifest itself in different, maybe even more depraved, ways (tho it is tough to imagine something more depraved than shooting up an elementary school). human history is one long, tragic, violent exercise: why?

Rock Chalk
12-14-2012, 11:07 AM
It happens so often anymore it seems we are getting numb. But when it's kids it really strikes your heart. And this close to Christmas makes it even sadder. Just so depressing.

Im not getting numb. In fact, I dont think I have ever been this furious over a school shooting before.

bronco militia
12-14-2012, 11:10 AM
my wife found out about the shooting on here way to pick up our 7 year old. I guess most of the victims are 1st graders. It definitely makes you think about home schooling.

my thoughts and prayers go out to all those families.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 11:15 AM
This is the second mass shooting THIS FREAKING WEEK. There have been three of these in the last six months.

Something is clearly and unbelievably wrong. We're shooting up elementary schools now for crying out loud. Yes it was a crazy person, but you seriously don't think external cultural influences..you know, influence people?

The problem with the Marilyn Manson connection is that it's placing the blame on a specific figure. No one person is the problem, our collective obsession with violence is.

Ultimately the gunman is responsible but that and a nickel will net you a nickel and a bunch of dead kids. Until Americans accept that we've culturally gone way off the rails, this crap will keep happening.

I've lived and travelled extensively outside of this country. These incidents are extremely rare in Europe (where I have the most experience). Yes they do happen (see Norway), but one in the last decade is a pretty good track record compared to the madness we have.

Are we as Americans just more mentally unstable? Are we worse people? Or is there a cultural difference that keeps their crazy people from killing as many people as possible on a regular basis? Is it access to guns (which in Europe is pretty much non-existent)?

My wife works in a setting well known for it's issues with these types of shooting, and there isn't a day that goes by I don't worry about one of the idiots she deals with coming in and pointing that gun at her.

I agree we've culturally gone way off the rails, but banning guns won't address that. it's like treating cancer with a band-aid. external events undoubtably influence people, but I find it foolhardy to think human beings have much control over those. we can't whitewash society. we can't whitewash existence. angst, trials, mishaps, and catastrophes are part of life, and the question should focus more on the proper means to grapple with that. society isn't about grappling with hard questions nowadays, tho: it's about instant-gratification and fun-fixes and feeling good in the moment. give that enough time, and **** like this happens.

I know Switzerland and Austria mandate gun ownership for their of-age males. something to do with getting blitzkrieged back in the 30's.

ElwayMD
12-14-2012, 11:16 AM
my wife found out about the shooting on here way to pick up our 7 year old. I guess most of the victims are 1st graders. It definitely makes you think about home schooling.

my thoughts and prayers go out to all those families.

This is why schools are becoming more and more like prisons. The school I work at requires you to have a micro-chipped id card to get in the door and people who do not have id's must be buzzed in by office workers who also can see the person wanting entry on a video screen. While not fool proof, it does keep unwanted people out of the school.

rideco
12-14-2012, 11:20 AM
This is why schools are becoming more and more like prisons. The school I work at requires you to have a micro-chipped id card to get in the door and people who do not have id's must be buzzed in by office workers who also can see the person wanting entry on a video screen. While not fool proof, it does keep unwanted people out of the school.

At this point I would not be apposed to adding a man trap with a body scanner used before anyone is let in my children's school including all students. What has this world come to.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 11:22 AM
At this point I would not be apposed to adding a man trap with a body scanner used before anyone is let in my children's school including all students. What has this world come to.

when I have kids, I'm homeschooling the living **** out of them

DenverBrit
12-14-2012, 11:24 AM
This is the second mass shooting THIS FREAKING WEEK. There have been three of these in the last six months.

Something is clearly and unbelievably wrong. We're shooting up elementary schools now for crying out loud. Yes it was a crazy person, but you seriously don't think external cultural influences..you know, influence people?

The problem with the Marilyn Manson connection is that it's placing the blame on a specific figure. No one person is the problem, our collective obsession with violence is.

Ultimately the gunman is responsible but that and a nickel will net you a nickel and a bunch of dead kids. Until Americans accept that we've culturally gone way off the rails, this crap will keep happening.

I've lived and travelled extensively outside of this country. These incidents are extremely rare in Europe (where I have the most experience). Yes they do happen (see Norway), but one in the last decade is a pretty good track record compared to the madness we have.

Are we as Americans just more mentally unstable? Are we worse people? Or is there a cultural difference that keeps their crazy people from killing as many people as possible on a regular basis? Is it access to guns (which in Europe is pretty much non-existent)?

My wife works in a setting well known for it's issues with these types of shooting, and there isn't a day that goes by I don't worry about one of the idiots she deals with coming in and pointing that gun at her.

Absolutely.

As long as the 'disturbed' have easy access to guns, these horrific incidents will continue. If the mentally unstable in Europe had guns, we might be reading about similar incidents.

To put it in perspective, in 1979, when I arrived here, N Ireland's terrorist campaigns were in full swing and it was basically a war zone. Houston, which had a similar population size, had four times the murder rate.

That same year in the UK, which had a population of 52 million, there were six handgun murders. To this day, the beat cop still doesn't need to carry guns.

So yes, I believe the easy access to guns does explain many of these incidents. And why do we need to allow automatic weapons? That is unconscionable.

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 11:27 AM
Unbelievable. What will the crazy apes do next?

El Minion
12-14-2012, 11:36 AM
Ryan Lanza ID’d As Newtown School Shooting Gunman (http://www.inquisitr.com/438676/ryan-lanza-idd-as-newtown-school-shooting-gunman/)


http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2012/12/ryan-lanza-newtown.jpeg
The Newtown school shooting (http://www.inquisitr.com/438542/school-shooting-in-connecticut-press-conference-underway-in-newtown-liveblog/) suspect has been identified as Ryan Lanza, and a “likely Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/rlanza)” for the alleged gunman has been located.

Ryan Lanza lists his hometown as Newtown, but indicates he most recently resided in Hoboken. CNN (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/) and Slate have identified Lanza as the probable gunman, and the man’s Facebook page simply displays a photo with a friend’s comment:


“Look like you’re about to buy an Ale, but then paint a picture of it… very mixed… all good, though. Kinda like if Solid Snake was wearing a Neo trenchcoat. This can only turn out awesome.”
Earlier reports that the gunman was a father of a Sandy Hook Elementary student appear to have been erroneous, but Lanza’s connection to the school has not yet been revealed.
Little is known about how Lanza was identified as the shooter or on what information news stations are basing reports on, but initial reports also indicate that a parent of the alleged gunman was found dead at another location.

Below is the Facebook picture for alleged gunman Ryan Lanza:
http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2012/12/newtown-school-shooting-ryan-lanza.jpeg

Pick Six
12-14-2012, 11:36 AM
They are saying it's a parent. A 20 year old

24-year old Ryan Lanza...

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/12/14/fox-news-confirms-suspected-connecticut-school-shooter-was-24-year-old-ryan-lanza/

gunns
12-14-2012, 11:38 AM
Im not getting numb. In fact, I dont think I have ever been this furious over a school shooting before.

That's what I said, when it's kids it strikes our hearts.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 11:38 AM
what a pussy

lonestar
12-14-2012, 11:42 AM
Absolutely.

As long as the 'disturbed' have easy access to guns, these horrific incidents will continue. If the mentally unstable in Europe had guns, we might be reading about similar incidents.

To put it in perspective, in 1979, when I arrived here, N Ireland's terrorist campaigns were in full swing and it was basically a war zone. Houston, which had a similar population size, had four times the murder rate.

That same year in the UK, which had a population of 52 million, there were six handgun murders. To this day, the beat cop still doesn't need to carry guns.

So yes, I believe the easy access to guns does explain many of these incidents. And why do we need to allow automatic weapons? That is unconscionable.

Without guns then it just as easliy could be a gallon of gas and match, banning guns, knives or forks will not stop someone from doing bad things..

BTW getting a guns is not like walking in the grocery store and picking one up.. there are checks and balances involved already.. Obviously not enough..

Fedaykin
12-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Things like this happening make me wish hell actually did exist. Shooting up elementary kids? Not that any mass shooting is anything but horrible, but that's beyond the pale.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
12-14-2012, 11:48 AM
It's the end-result of a culture that embraces violence as a positive quality. We fight wars and wave flags. Our biggest movies are *about* violence. Our video games are by and large *about* violence. When I think about the world I was raised in, it's stunning.

So you put someone who is mentally on edge in that culture and then give them easy access to guns. What happens next is no surprise.

this never happen when i went to school 1972-86.
there was a shooting at mcdonalds way back then some postal shootings.but nothing never like this, and dont go blaming video games i play shooters and other video games since 85 i never went postal, VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT TO BLAME nor are TV SHOWS .
the shooter or shooters are evil son of a bitches and need to be put to death so very slowly.

Kaylore
12-14-2012, 11:50 AM
Im not getting numb. In fact, I dont think I have ever been this furious over a school shooting before.

This. I haven't been this upset about a tragedy since maybe 911. Little children, and entire classroom, murdered. I'm having trouble just being at work...

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
12-14-2012, 11:50 AM
he killed his own mother too wow that guy was so full of hate

AK Broncomaniac
12-14-2012, 11:51 AM
I really try to view humanity in a positive light, but days like today make it hard.

Collective humanity is not a positive force... We live in our bubble and we hope that we are protected from horrific events like the one today, but the truth is that evil is all around us. When the lives of pure innocents are so brutally taken, it seems even more heinous. May God send His peace and comfort to all those affected. :(

TheChamp24
12-14-2012, 11:54 AM
This is beyond freakin terrible. And no punishment of the shooter(s) would be enough.
So sad :(

Tell me why only America has such an issue with gun violence?
I'm not saying straight ban guns, but automatic weapons, why does an individual need one?
There needs to be a lot stricter gun regulations, and I hate to say it but stricter things to put in Gun Free zones. I mean, are we going to need to either carry a handgun with us at all times, or have metal detectors/etc. to walk through every single place we go?

broncocalijohn
12-14-2012, 11:56 AM
^ Gun free zones mean tougher prosecution but also means no self defense. Obviously, a shooter and suicide minded shooter looks at that and knows that no one will be defending themselves. It is a catch 22 scenario.

CEH
12-14-2012, 11:57 AM
Without guns then it just as easliy could be a gallon of gas and match, banning guns, knives or forks will not stop someone from doing bad things..

BTW getting a guns is not like walking in the grocery store and picking one up.. there are checks and balances involved already.. Obviously not enough..

Man in China today stabbed 22 school children.
Children it's just sicking to think this kids had no chance

Pseudofool
12-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Without guns then it just as easliy could be a gallon of gas and match, banning guns, knives or forks will not stop someone from doing bad things..Forking a person to death is a different mental process than polling a trigger. If you can't see the difference between killing with drones or your bare hands, you're probably also unwilling to deal with this problem from any psychological perspective.

Kaylore
12-14-2012, 12:00 PM
Forking person to death is a different mental process than polling a trigger. If you can't see the difference between killing with drones or your bare hands, you're probably also unwilling to deal with this problem from any psychological perspective.

You really think someone that did this will be stopped if you made guns illegal? Killing people is illegal too.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 12:04 PM
I mean, are we going to need to either carry a handgun with us at all times

some see it this^ way

myMind
12-14-2012, 12:07 PM
Police say the shooters mother, a teacher at the school, is one of those found dead.
****s going all to hell.

pootz22
12-14-2012, 12:08 PM
God bless all those touched by this event, including the brave first responders who witness things no one should. None of those children could have done anything to anyone.

Absolutely horrible events with malls, schools, movie theatres...

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 12:08 PM
This is horrible. I'm a high school principal and this is my biggest fear. Prayers. I would add that to say Europe is better than us and immune to this is completely false. Germany, Finland, Scotland, and Russia have all had school shootings. Many other European countries have had other types of Mass shootings, many this last decade. Research it and check your facts. This is not just an American problem. A Mass school shooting recently happened in Brazil and countries such as Canada, India, Israel, and Argentina have had them as well, and this not complete list.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 12:09 PM
Police say the shooters mother, a teacher at the school, is one of those found dead.
****s going all to hell.

I mean, what can you do with such a person? protect yourself, pretty much.

Pseudofool
12-14-2012, 12:11 PM
You really think someone that did this will be stopped if you made guns illegal? Killing people is illegal too.
We don't know the details, but yes, I think making access more difficult to weapons that can kill with ease would curb killing. I'm not suggesting banning guns, but certainly semi-automatic, and concealable weapons shouldn't be available at your local gun show. It's a slippery slope no matter where we draw the line in legality of weaponry, but I think we can make sensible policy without giving up our second amendment rights.

We don't know how deeply the murderous desire runs in any individual, but making killing more difficult can only help that desire run out before it results in more death.

It's important to note that often the people responsible for these kinds of mass shootings were not criminals before hand. And we often find a track record of pleas for help...

Look, alternatively, I'd love to have robust, public mental health access for everyone, but that will be expensive and this a generalization, but usually those who fight for gun rights the most rabidly, also don't care for taxes or social welfare. If we want to allow easy access to dangerous weapons, let's have a more access to mental health care.

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 12:17 PM
No small part of this ugly barbarization has been due to sheer physical congestion: a diagnosis now partly confirmed with scientific experiments with rats – for when they are placed in equally congested quarters, they exhibit the same symptoms of stress, alienation, hostility, sexual perversion, parental incompetence, and rabid violence that we now find in the Megalopolis. Lewis Mumford

Jason in LA
12-14-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this. Having a child in high school, this type of stuff makes me worry, because I can't always be there to protect him, and he's at an age where he's able to go out on his own more often.

In this case, small children, the thought of them being helpless. As a parent you drop your kid off and you would never imagine something like this. The thought of not being their to protect your child, that's just a horrible feeling.

razorwire77
12-14-2012, 12:20 PM
This is horrible. I'm a high school principal and this is my biggest fear. Prayers. I would add that to say Europe is better than us and immune to this is completely false. Germany, Finland, Scotland, and Russia have all had school shootings. Many other European countries have had other types of Mass shootings, many this last decade. Research it and check your facts. This is not just an American problem. A Mass school shooting recently happened in Brazil and countries such as Canada, India, Israel, and Argentina have had them as well, and this not complete list.

Really don't think now is an appropriate time or place to have this conversation. The issue is frequency of said attacks occurring in this country when compared to many of the countries mentioned (and the number of people compared to the population killed in this fashion). But again, a time and a place for everything.

Jason in LA
12-14-2012, 12:20 PM
It's almost unfair that this guy is dead, and not around to answer for this, and then get the crap beat out of him everyday in prison until he meets his end there, in a painful fashion. He got off easy.

Pseudofool
12-14-2012, 12:24 PM
No small part of this ugly barbarization has been due to sheer physical congestion: a diagnosis now partly confirmed with scientific experiments with rats – for when they are placed in equally congested quarters, they exhibit the same symptoms of stress, alienation, hostility, sexual perversion, parental incompetence, and rabid violence that we now find in the Megalopolis. Lewis MumfordThat's interesting, but a simplification, and sadly cynical.

Jekyll15Hyde
12-14-2012, 12:24 PM
Without guns then it just as easliy could be a gallon of gas and match, banning guns, knives or forks will not stop someone from doing bad things..

BTW getting a guns is not like walking in the grocery store and picking one up.. there are checks and balances involved already.. Obviously not enough..

Seeing these stories happening all the time in Europe.

The European results speak for themselves.

Br0nc0Buster
12-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Not sure if they ID'd the wrong guy or if someone hacked his FB account

But the Ryan Lanza guy started posting on his FB that he was not the shooter and was at work before his FB page dissapeared

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 12:32 PM
That's interesting, but a simplification, and sadly cynical.

Actually, it was based on a study of rats in 1962. When you place a number of rats in an environment that can easily sustain them, it is a peaceable kingdom. As you add more rats, they become crazier and crazier until finally, with enough rats, the entire social fabric disintegrates and they resort to murder and cannibalism.

We have a whole generation of twenty somethings now, many of whom are finding out that the economy has no place for them, there are no jobs, and they have no value. Expect more of this, not less.
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/09-062836/en/index.html

elsid13
12-14-2012, 12:32 PM
Man, this leave me absolutely numb. Today is kinda of day that I hope there is hell and this ****er will experience those horrors forever.

ColoradoBuff
12-14-2012, 12:34 PM
killed his father in NJ then drove to Conn for the rampage. what a piece of crap to take the lives of innocent children. go off yourself in your basement or somewhere else. leave innocent kids out it. hug your children! sad sad day

mkporter
12-14-2012, 12:34 PM
Awful. As a father, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Two thoughts (the first being more important, IMO):
1) We really need to put a lot more emphasis (and a lot less stigma) on mental health care in this country. Seeing a therapist should be as normal as seeing your primary care physician. I have been seeing one regularly for the past year or so, and it has been very helpful, although I still feel some shame for doing so. (Even though I understand there is no reason for that) Most of these horrific incidents could have been averted had these people sought/been provided help.

2) I'm not an anti-gun crusader, but we do really have an issue with guns in this country. There are 300 million guns in private hands in the US. Far and away more per capita than any where else in the world:

Guns per 100 people (Top ten countries):
United States 88.8
Serbia 58.2
Yemen 54.8
Switzerland 45.7
Cyprus 36.4
Saudi Arabia 35
Iraq 34.2
Finland 32
Uruguay 31.8
Sweden 31.6

Every time an incident like this come up, I see an argument that, "It could have been prevented had some one else had a gun to stop them." I'm sorry, but the answer can not be that we need _more_ guns. We need fewer guns, and fewer assault weapons out there, and stricter checks to getting them (no gun show loopholes, etc). It isn't going to stop all of these things from happening, but it is going to prevent some of them. We should be working towards creating a more responsible gun culture instead of creating a larger and more heavily armed gun culture.

My heart goes out to all the parents in Connecticut today. I don't have the words.

Pseudofool
12-14-2012, 12:37 PM
Actually, it was based on a study of rats in 1962. When you place a number of rats in an environment that can easily sustain them, it is a peaceable kingdom. As you add more rats, they become crazier and crazier until finally, with enough rats, the entire social fabric disintegrates and they resort to murder and cannibalism.

We have a whole generation of twenty somethings now, many of whom are finding out that the economy has no place for them, there are no jobs, and they have no value. Expect more of this, not less.
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/09-062836/en/index.htmlOh I get the import, but it's still cynical and simplistic. Humans aren't rats, and while the economic sustainability is deplorable, I'm not sure that the close quarters of people had much to do with the shooting. Perhaps in our growing number we can neglect the margins and let crazy grow unfettered, but that's a shame not erased by the fact there are too many of us.

That said, yes, I generally agree, things are ****ed.

Kid A
12-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Man in China today stabbed 22 school children.
Children it's just sicking to think this kids had no chance

Worth noting, none of those kids in China died, only wounded. Terrible incident to be sure, proof there are sick people all over, but we also have a clear case of two men setting out to kill a bunch of kids, only one of them had access to a semi-automatic.

Guns are simply many many times more effective at killing people than knives. Ignoring this fact, even if you do ultimately come down on the side of defending current gun rights, is insane. When a sick person has an outburst and decides to attack a school in a country where it is hard to access guns vs a country that does everything it can to make that easy...the results speak for themselves.

Pony Boy
12-14-2012, 12:38 PM
The worst mass school murder in American history took place on May 18,1927 in Bath Township, Mich., when a former school board member set off three bombs that killed 45 people.

ColoradoBuff
12-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Another relative, who was not identified, was found shot to death at a home in Newtown, officials said.
Lanza’s younger brother was being questioned to see if he knew anything about the mass killing, NBC News reported.

55CrushEm
12-14-2012, 12:47 PM
The worst mass school murder in American history took place on May 18,1927 in Bath Township, Mich., when a former school board member set off three bombs that killed 45 people.

Yeah. Read this too.

But guns are the problem. ::)

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 12:47 PM
Oh I get the import, but it's still cynical and simplistic. Humans aren't rats, and while the economic sustainability is deplorable, I'm not sure that the close quarters of people had much to do with the shooting. Perhaps in our growing number we can neglect the margins and let crazy grow unfettered, but that's a shame not erased by the fact there are too many of us.

That said, yes, I generally agree, things are ****ed.

No. We're not rats. Our reactions are probably far more complex, and maybe more individualized, but the guy who shot up the mall in Oregon the other day was another twenty something who had reached a dead end. No doubt we'll hear the same thing about this guy, that all his friends are shocked, he's never done anything violent, and nobody foresaw him doing such a thing.

Our society is not working.

Pseudofool
12-14-2012, 12:51 PM
Our society is not working.Agreed. But maybe there's no such thing as a 'working' society; they'll always be a balance of detriments.

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 12:55 PM
Really don't think now is an appropriate time or place to have this conversation. The issue is frequency of said attacks occurring in this country when compared to many of the countries mentioned (and the number of people compared to the population killed in this fashion). But again, a time and a place for everything.

I didn't bring up other countries. It was already on the table and I was just responding. See posts 28, 35, 38, and 39. I'm trying to understand the boundaries stated in your post and projected at me but I don't. My point was this...it is a shared human problem, and in reference to your statement, regardless of quantifiable data, frequency, or other numbers, it's an international epidemic with real people that is happening in many countries. Schools world wide are facing issues about safety. Parents send their most precious possessions to people in my role and I take that very serious, as well as other educators regardless of borders. Countries' education systems are always compared and rated against each other in all areas including safety and academics but usually without all the facts. I was adding facts to help develop a better understanding.

I work with SROs and other principals everyday, I have presented at conferences with them, and we spend time studying these tragedies, particularly Columbine and Beslan, and go through table top exercises. We know this is a problem that victimizes people across bounderies, cultures, and varying degrees of gun laws. Its complex and each time is gut wrenching.

ColoradoBuff
12-14-2012, 12:55 PM
A law enforcement official says the suspect is 24-year-old Ryan Lanza and that his younger brother is being held for questioning as a possible second shooter. The law enforcement official says the boys' mother, Nancy Lanza, works at the school as a teacher.


Read more: Connecticut school shooting: At least 27 dead, including 18 children - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22193175/connecticut-school-shooting-27-people-dead-including-14#ixzz2F3ux6160) http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22193175/connecticut-school-shooting-27-people-dead-including-14#ixzz2F3ux6160
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

ColoradoBuff
12-14-2012, 12:56 PM
Photos: Connecticut school shooting

http://mediacenter.smugmug.com/photos/i-7S2g5R7/0/Th/i-7S2g5R7-Th.jpg (http://photos.denverpost.com/2012/12/14/photos-27-dead-in-connecticut-school-shooting/)
View a slideshow of photos from the Connecticut elementary school shooting (http://photos.denverpost.com/2012/12/14/photos-27-dead-in-connecticut-school-shooting/)


The official also said Ryan
Lanza's girlfriend and another friend are missing in New Jersey.

Read more: Connecticut school shooting: At least 27 dead, including 18 children - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22193175/connecticut-school-shooting-27-people-dead-including-14#ixzz2F3v5e9WL) http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22193175/connecticut-school-shooting-27-people-dead-including-14#ixzz2F3v5e9WL
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

mkporter
12-14-2012, 12:56 PM
Yeah. Read this too.

But guns are the problem. ::)

Yeah, the guy with the bombs would have totally been stopped if more people were carrying bombs.

baja
12-14-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't even know what to say. What happened to our society? Where does it end? How do you fix this?

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:01 PM
We need to get prayer and God back into our schools. The kids lack a moral compass and the teachings of Jesus Christ about our lord would help. We had guns back in the 50's and this studd didn't happen. The only real difference in schools since then is lack of religion. How many private religious schools have had these sorts of problems? I think i remember a couple but for sure not as many. By teaching kids about the love of Jesus Christ you can give them faith and hope. Something which we lack more and more of each decade.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:05 PM
I don't even know what to say. What happened to our society? Where does it end? How do you fix this?

Society went godless. We fix it by getting religion back into schools.

Jason in LA
12-14-2012, 01:07 PM
1) We really need to put a lot more emphasis (and a lot less stigma) on mental health care in this country. Seeing a therapist should be as normal as seeing your primary care physician. I have been seeing one regularly for the past year or so, and it has been very helpful, although I still feel some shame for doing so. (Even though I understand there is no reason for that) Most of these horrific incidents could have been averted had these people sought/been provided help.



I recently heard about a kid who is about 10. His parents cannot handle him, and his teachers are having major problems dealing with him. He's not a big kid, but he bullies everybody. The kid has even threatened teachers. When the father gets on his case, the kid gives the father the evil eye, and has even threatened him. The kid is on meds, but the parents can't really afford anything more. The person telling me the story, who is in med school, said that this kid has the make up of a future criminal.

It's kind of scary. We really don't know who we are dealing with.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-14-2012, 01:09 PM
Society went godless. We fix it by getting religion back into schools.

Is this serious? Because I can point to a whole section of the world in which religion is the source of violence

There's no answer here, unfortunately. Society has grown quicker than we know how to deal with it. I honestly think part of the problem is social media and the 24/7 newscycle. we're constantly being fed information. Obviously those things have plenty of positives too, but he's an example of a negative

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-14-2012, 01:10 PM
Society went godless. We fix it by getting religion back into schools.

That's not going to happen. Family values and Christian beliefs are being snuffed out by the offended.

BowlenBall
12-14-2012, 01:11 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/92953800532a4b138bc864d8f0fb0e73/tumblr_mf1gehOSG91qgq1t9o1_500.jpg

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:14 PM
Is this serious? Because I can point to a whole section of the world in which religion is the source of violence

There's no answer here, unfortunately. Society has grown quicker than we know how to deal with it. I honestly think part of the problem is social media and the 24/7 newscycle. we're constantly being fed information. Obviously those things have plenty of positives too, but he's an example of a negative

In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

LOL then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 01:14 PM
Awful. As a father, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Two thoughts (the first being more important, IMO):
1) We really need to put a lot more emphasis (and a lot less stigma) on mental health care in this country. Seeing a therapist should be as normal as seeing your primary care physician. I have been seeing one regularly for the past year or so, and it has been very helpful, although I still feel some shame for doing so. (Even though I understand there is no reason for that) Most of these horrific incidents could have been averted had these people sought/been provided help.

2) I'm not an anti-gun crusader, but we do really have an issue with guns in this country. There are 300 million guns in private hands in the US. Far and away more per capita than any where else in the world:

Guns per 100 people (Top ten countries):
United States 88.8
Serbia 58.2
Yemen 54.8
Switzerland 45.7
Cyprus 36.4
Saudi Arabia 35
Iraq 34.2
Finland 32
Uruguay 31.8
Sweden 31.6

Every time an incident like this come up, I see an argument that, "It could have been prevented had some one else had a gun to stop them." I'm sorry, but the answer can not be that we need _more_ guns. We need fewer guns, and fewer assault weapons out there, and stricter checks to getting them (no gun show loopholes, etc). It isn't going to stop all of these things from happening, but it is going to prevent some of them. We should be working towards creating a more responsible gun culture instead of creating a larger and more heavily armed gun culture.

My heart goes out to all the parents in Connecticut today. I don't have the words.

Really interesting to see Sweden on that list, considering their low crime rate.

DENVERDUI55
12-14-2012, 01:14 PM
Worth noting, none of those kids in China died, only wounded. Terrible incident to be sure, proof there are sick people all over, but we also have a clear case of two men setting out to kill a bunch of kids, only one of them had access to a semi-automatic.

Guns are simply many many times more effective at killing people than knives. Ignoring this fact, even if you do ultimately come down on the side of defending current gun rights, is insane. When a sick person has an outburst and decides to attack a school in a country where it is hard to access guns vs a country that does everything it can to make that easy...the results speak for themselves.

Guns may be more effective but I could also hit a farm store buy a 50 gallon drum of fertilizer and mix with diesel fuel and create quite the bomb. It's failed parenting and sick people that kill people not guns, knives etc.

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 01:15 PM
In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

LOL then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

http://kmpunksays.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/seinfeld.gif

dbfan21
12-14-2012, 01:16 PM
Today's tragedy reminded me of a quote from author, Donald Miller, in his book "Searching for God Knows What." For me, it helps explain why evil like this exists in our world. Maybe it will make sense to you too.

“I happened to see Larry King interview Billy Graham shortly after the shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. I had read an article the previous month about violent video games and their effects on the minds of children, desensitizing them to the act of killing. Larry King asked Billy Graham what was wrong with the world, and how such a thing as Columbine could happen. I knew, because Billy Graham was an educated man, he had read the same article I had read, and I began calculating his answer for him, that violence begets violence, and that we live in a culture desensitized to the beauty of human life and the sanctity of creation. But Billy Graham did not blame video games. Billy Graham looked Larry King in the eye and said, 'Thousands of years ago, a young couple lived in a garden called Eden, and God placed a tree in the Garden and told them not to eat from the tree...' And I knew in my soul he was right.”



We need to pray for those affected families and our depraved world!
RIP

SonOfLe-loLang
12-14-2012, 01:17 PM
In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

LOL then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

I was never a christian, I was raised athiest, all my friends are basically the same, not one of them is a criminal.

Most mideastern terrorists cite God when they carry out their work.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:18 PM
That's not going to happen. Family values and Christian beliefs are being snuffed out by the offended.

Some call it seperation of church and state but the result is people without the moral center we used to rely on. People are all about being politically correct and tolerant but have lost their way when it comes to god. They don't realize that without god when people hit rock bottom they have nothing. The state will not help you but god he can change your life.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 01:18 PM
Really interesting to see Sweden on that list, considering their low crime rate.

A lot of those #'s come from the fact that Sweden used to have compulsory military service.

Kid A
12-14-2012, 01:20 PM
We need to get prayer and God back into our schools. The kids lack a moral compass and the teachings of Jesus Christ about our lord would help. We had guns back in the 50's and this studd didn't happen. The only real difference in schools since then is lack of religion. How many private religious schools have had these sorts of problems? I think i remember a couple but for sure not as many. By teaching kids about the love of Jesus Christ you can give them faith and hope. Something which we lack more and more of each decade.

Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

Jetland
12-14-2012, 01:20 PM
Today's tragedy reminded me of a quote from author, Donald Miller, in his book "Searching for God Knows What." For me, it helps explain why evil like this exists in our world. Maybe it will make sense to you too.

“I happened to see Larry King interview Billy Graham shortly after the shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. I had read an article the previous month about violent video games and their effects on the minds of children, desensitizing them to the act of killing. Larry King asked Billy Graham what was wrong with the world, and how such a thing as Columbine could happen. I knew, because Billy Graham was an educated man, he had read the same article I had read, and I began calculating his answer for him, that violence begets violence, and that we live in a culture desensitized to the beauty of human life and the sanctity of creation. But Billy Graham did not blame video games. Billy Graham looked Larry King in the eye and said, 'Thousands of years ago, a young couple lived in a garden called Eden, and God placed a tree in the Garden and told them not to eat from the tree...' And I knew in my soul he was right.”



We need to pray for those affected families and our depraved world!
RIP

well we can't argue with such hard scientific fact

Requiem
12-14-2012, 01:21 PM
Some call it seperation of church and state but the result is people without the moral center we used to rely on. People are all about being politically correct and tolerant but have lost their way when it comes to god. They don't realize that without god when people hit rock bottom they have nothing. The state will not help you but god he can change your life.

You can not adhere to religion and still have a moral compass. Basic principles of morality existed long before organized religion did.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:22 PM
Places like Switzerland its the law that men of a certain age have an assault rifle. Thats how they insure safety that every man can grab his gun and go fight if need me.

Sweden may be same way. Thats why the gun numbers so high. Remember though many countries with low crime also have low mixed races and not a high population. When have 250 million, compared to 10 million, there really isn't much in common. Many of the Euro countries are like an American city with all white people that have money. Sure the crime is low. Try being the USA with a melting pot of different cultures, almost 300 million people etc etc. Not saying that excuses us just saying America is not Europe.

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 01:23 PM
Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2012, 01:25 PM
Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

razorwire77
12-14-2012, 01:25 PM
I didn't bring up other countries. It was already on the table and I was just responding. See posts 28, 35, 38, and 39. I'm trying to understand the boundaries stated in your post and projected at me but I don't. My point was this...it is a shared human problem, and in reference to your statement, regardless of quantifiable data, frequency, or other numbers, it's an international epidemic with real people that is happening in many countries. Schools world wide are facing issues about safety. Parents send their most precious possessions to people in my role and I take that very serious, as well as other educators regardless of borders. Countries' education systems are always compared and rated against each other in all areas including safety and academics but usually without all the facts. I was adding facts to help develop a better understanding.

I work with SROs and other principals everyday, I have presented at conferences with them, and we spend time studying these tragedies, particularly Columbine and Beslan, and go through table top exercises. We know this is a problem that victimizes people across bounderies, cultures, and varying degrees of gun laws. Its complex and each time is gut wrenching.
I'm also in education and hold Masters Degrees in Secondary Language Arts Curriculum and Educational Administration. I wasn't "projecting" anything at you per se (sorry if it appeared as though I was). It was meant as a general statement about the immediacy of the tragedies and how people instantly try to fit the context of the situation to their own political agendas and belief systems (again something I'm not accusing you of, but just in a general sense.) I agree that it's a "shared human problem," but there are a number of variables that make this problem much more prevalent in this country than others. I'm so upset/angry about this particular shooting (as I'm sure everyone here is) that I don't want to engage in a discussion about the social complexities or get into a debate, because at this point I think it minimizes the immediate tragedy itself.

Thank you for your service as an educator. Today was tough one.

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 01:26 PM
"We were better off in the 50's" Said no woman, Asian, Hispanic, Jew, physically/mentally disabled, single parent, or gay person, ever.....

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

Yup.

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 01:27 PM
I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

Northern Europe has the largest refugee diaspora in the world... next theory...

mkporter
12-14-2012, 01:28 PM
In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

LOL then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

Nor should they, because if you weren't white, straight, christian and male, it isn't true.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 01:29 PM
You can not adhere to religion and still have a moral compass. Basic principles of morality existed long before organized religion did.

Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

Requiem
12-14-2012, 01:30 PM
Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

You can pray silently in school all you want. People did it all the time, people still do. Stating that there is a rise in violence in our school system due to a lack of prayer is a disingenuous argument and you know it.

razorwire77
12-14-2012, 01:31 PM
"We were better off in the 50's" Said no woman, Asian, Hispanic, Jew, physically/mentally disabled, single parent, or gay person, ever.....

As we age, many people always seem pine for an imaginary "Golden Era" even though each generation makes the same mistakes as the next. They also want to portray each younger generation as being "lost."

SonOfLe-loLang
12-14-2012, 01:35 PM
Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

Its silly to think thats the correlation

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 01:37 PM
Then why don't Western Europe (which is far more secular and stern about separating church and state) or Asia (they don't worship our God at all) have a problem with school shootings? I don't begrudge you looking for a cause, but I think it's more complicated (and less convenient) than a change in school prayer policy.

I'm a Christian and high school principal. On a personal level, I believe teaching family values would be a plus, however, the leading indicator for a student to be a success academically, socially and healthy is a complete family ; mommy and daddy still together and involved in their kids lives. If you want to take it a step further, entact families who actually have sit down dinners with each other have the highest rate of successful and well adjusted kids. So guys and gals stay together and have dinner together if you really want to provide the best statistical chance for your kids to be successful academically, socially, and healthy. The leading indicator for collegiate success is the formation/joining of a study group. College kids who join a study group have the highest statistical chance of graduating.

Br0nc0Buster
12-14-2012, 01:38 PM
I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

I am sorry but almost every study done regarding violance and religious beliefs have proven that to be false

If anything there tends to be a positive correlation of violence within a population and religious belief

orangeatheist
12-14-2012, 01:40 PM
We need to get prayer and God back into our schools. The kids lack a moral compass and the teachings of Jesus Christ about our lord would help. We had guns back in the 50's and this studd didn't happen. The only real difference in schools since then is lack of religion. How many private religious schools have had these sorts of problems? I think i remember a couple but for sure not as many. By teaching kids about the love of Jesus Christ you can give them faith and hope. Something which we lack more and more of each decade.

I have two kids. And you're an idiot of the highest caliber.

houghtam
12-14-2012, 01:40 PM
You can not adhere to religion and still have a moral compass. Basic principles of morality existed long before organized religion did.

Exactly.

A cave man could rationalize that killing a member of his tribe would leave less people to hunt for food.

Morality is not dependent upon religion or belief in God. Never has been, never will be. In fact, what some would describe as "morality", others would call "pragmatism". Depending on what you believe, "morality" is either endowed to you by a magical being no one can see, or by hundreds of thousands of years of natural selection.

broncocalijohn
12-14-2012, 01:44 PM
I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.

http://www.pewforum.org/how-religious-is-your-state-.aspx
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf
http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html

Here are the top religious states and their violent crime per 100k residents

1) Mississippi 306.7
2) Alabama 459.9
3) Arkansas 530.3
4) Lousiana 628.4 (New Orleans of course-maybe diff since Katrina)
5) Tennessee 666 (that is a fitting number)
6) South Carolina 675.10
42)Conneticut 300.5
43) Maine 119.9
44) Massachusetts 465.6
45) Alaska 632.6
46) Vermont/NH 135.1

Some states were added together.

Besides the crazyness of Alaska, many of the safest states are much different then the ones that are religious. Maine, Vermont, Conn and New Hampshire do not have many urban areas.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-14-2012, 01:50 PM
Do you think school violence was less when prayer was done in school or has it gone up without it?

Right. Because they're totally related.

cutthemdown has the answer to every problem: praying to skygod.

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 01:52 PM
[QUOTE=Mightysmurf;3753226]I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.[/

Cities with highest violent crime rates:
1 Detroit
2 St. Louis
3 0akland (figures)
4 Memphis
5 Birmingham
6 Atlanta
7 Baltimore
8 Stockton
9 Cleveland
10 Buffalo

Not exactly a list of cities exclusive to the Bible Belt states.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/10/18/detroit-tops-the-2012-list-of-americas-most-dangerous-cities/

Chris
12-14-2012, 01:53 PM
The fact that there can't be a legitimate national discussion on gun control because the NRA has some hot shot lawyers is offensive, disrespectful to all the victims of gun violence and a real stain on this country.

55CrushEm
12-14-2012, 01:53 PM
Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.

broncocalijohn
12-14-2012, 02:00 PM
The fact that their can't be a legitimate national discussion on gun control because the NRA has some hot shot lawyers is offensive, disrespectful to all the victims of gun violence and a real stain on this country.

how many more gun laws do you want? As we take guns out of law abiding hands, it is free reign for the criminals. Let me know when a criminal is going to listen to a gun law and therefore, no longer be that criminal?

baja
12-14-2012, 02:01 PM
Society went godless. We fix it by getting religion back into schools.

Sadly it is not that simple.

So many strong forces moving this, violence on TV, video games, movies, broken families and yes moral teaching. Availability of weapons. All contribute. Even the way the story is being covered contributes. The worst part is this seems to be occurring with more and more frequency. Unfortunately this will result in more fear based legislation rather than looking closely at the root problems and correcting them. Sad day for us all. God help us.

baja
12-14-2012, 02:09 PM
Homicide and general crime rates were basically the same in the 50s as they are today. If there's one thing my degrees in criminology have taught me is pretty much the only thing that's changed is the media coverage and the Internet.

I find that hard to believe.

There must be statics on that.

Bacchus
12-14-2012, 02:15 PM
24-year old Ryan Lanza...

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/12/14/fox-news-confirms-suspected-connecticut-school-shooter-was-24-year-old-ryan-lanza/

Surprise surprise, another angry white guy. WTF is wrong with you people!!!!!!

Bacchus
12-14-2012, 02:16 PM
Man in China today stabbed 22 school children.
Children it's just sicking to think this kids had no chance

Yeah, but most of them survived... Huge difference between gun and knife violence.

elsid13
12-14-2012, 02:18 PM
Just reported that the children were killed execution style, after the ****er shot his mother. WTF

Mogulseeker
12-14-2012, 02:19 PM
[QUOTE=Mightysmurf;3753226]I just wanted to make one point and then I'm out....

You don't even have to look at Europe or Asia. You can just look at the US itself, and consider that the states with the higher violent crime rates tend to be the more religious ones.[/

Cities with highest violent crime rates:
1 Detroit
2 St. Louis
3 0akland (figures)
4 Memphis
5 Birmingham
6 Atlanta
7 Baltimore
8 Stockton
9 Cleveland
10 Buffalo

Not exactly a list of cities exclusive to the Bible Belt states.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/10/18/detroit-tops-the-2012-list-of-americas-most-dangerous-cities/

St. Louis, Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta - that's four of the top six - are in Bible Belt states.

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 02:20 PM
I find that hard to believe.

There must be statics on that.

Freakenomics had an interesting chapter on the manipulation of the crime for political gain. I'd recommend it. They also take further with many experts chiming in...

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/06/08/freakonomics-quorum-why-during-a-bad-economy-does-crime-continue-to-fall/

mkporter
12-14-2012, 02:23 PM
how many more gun laws do you want? As we take guns out of law abiding hands, it is free reign for the criminals. Let me know when a criminal is going to listen to a gun law and therefore, no longer be that criminal?

Where do criminals get guns? If they are buying them from stores or gun shows, then stricter laws help. If they are stealing them from law-abiding individuals, then having fewer guns in the hands of law abiding individuals helps.

Since you think fewer guns is not the answer, is more guns the answer? Is 2x the gun ownership rate of the rest of the world not enough? Or did we magically land on exactly the right number of guns in his country?

Kid A
12-14-2012, 02:28 PM
I'm a Christian and high school principal. On a personal level, I believe teaching family values would be a plus, however, the leading indicator for a student to be a success academically, socially and healthy is a complete family ; mommy and daddy still together and involved in their kids lives. If you want to take it a step further, entact families who actually have sit down dinners with each other have the highest rate of successful and well adjusted kids. So guys and gals stay together and have dinner together if you really want to provide the best statistical chance for your kids to be successful academically, socially, and healthy. The leading indicator for collegiate success is the formation/joining of a study group. College kids who join a study group have the highest statistical chance of graduating.

I totally agree on the importance of strengthening the family unit and everything you said. I just don't agree with cutthemdown that "getting God back in schools" is the solution to such a deep problem; that seems like a simplistic, politically convenient stance to take when so much evidence points to the issues arising from broken homes.

Now, even as a non-believer, I do see and respect how religion can play a role in a healthy family life. I just don't think rolling back laws to require a morning prayer in public schools is going to reverse damage of broken marriages, or violence in our culture as a whole. If religious people want to advocate using God to heal the problems in this nation, they should start by working on a community level to create marriages that last and healthy parent-child relationships, not picking a political fight to get the 10 Commandments posted in front of federal buildings.

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=tesnyde;3753260]

St. Louis, Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta - that's four of the top six - are in Bible Belt states.

Two of the top three incuding number one are not in the Bible Belt. All banter aside, the issue is one for many locations and is not isolated to just "religious" states.

Prodigal19
12-14-2012, 02:32 PM
I think our country has more of a religious history, more built on the principals of that religion. Then also I believe in the EU they aren't the melting pot as much as we are. It's not easy mixing together all these different cultures, different religions, different socio economic conditions into a smooth running country.

Look at France they are starting to have a lot of problems. Mostly because as the immigrant population grows and economy is stagnant you get problems.

Obviously it takes more the school prayer. But you can't argue as America gets less religious we are also getting more violent. A lot of those European countries people hold up for example dont let immigrants in unless they have money. Hard to compare then to us. How about we stick to comapring countries with at least 150 million people. Way more logical IMO.

Sure we can. Americas violent crime rate was at an all time high in the early 1990s and have dropped by about 35% since then, with the murder rate dropping nearly 50%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

In that same time period America has become quite a bit less religious.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/128276/increasing-number-no-religious-identity.aspx

It's pretty ridiculous try to draw together any sort of causation here but its even more ridiculous when the actual data correlation does not align with what you are stating.

maher_tyler
12-14-2012, 02:35 PM
Sadly it is not that simple.

So many strong forces moving this, violence on TV, video games, movies, broken families and yes moral teaching. Availability of weapons. All contribute. Even the way the story is being covered contributes. The worst part is this seems to be occurring with more and more frequency. Unfortunately this will result in more fear based legislation rather than looking closely at the root problems and correcting them. Sad day for us all. God help us.

I've watched countless amounts of violent TV shows/movies along with countless hours of Call of Duty and other violent video games. I have never gone to a school, mall etc and shot anyone. The thought that people do this because of the violence they see in a video game or on TV is a little ignorant. Parents need to do better jobs of seeing that maybe something isn't right. For someone to do something this crazy you would have to think their are some signs.

broncocalijohn
12-14-2012, 02:35 PM
Where do criminals get guns? If they are buying them from stores or gun shows, then stricter laws help. If they are stealing them from law-abiding individuals, then having fewer guns in the hands of law abiding individuals helps.

Since you think fewer guns is not the answer, is more guns the answer? Is 2x the gun ownership rate of the rest of the world not enough? Or did we magically land on exactly the right number of guns in his country?

LOL! Criminals don't buy from stores. They don't want their name associated with a gun. I was stating people cannot use them to protect themselves or others in public. That is what my post was stating.

maher_tyler
12-14-2012, 02:37 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/C6cmh5ebOKI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 02:40 PM
Sure we can. Americas violent crime rate was at an all time high in the early 1990s and have dropped by about 35% since then, with the murder rate dropping nearly 50%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

In that same time period America has become quite a bit less religious.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/128276/increasing-number-no-religious-identity.aspx

It's pretty ridiculous try to draw together any sort of causation here but its even more ridiculous when the actual data correlation does not align with what you are stating.

Sorry you forgot to add in all the babies abortions kill. :)

edog24
12-14-2012, 02:40 PM
Sadly it is not that simple.

So many strong forces moving this, violence on TV, video games, movies, broken families and yes moral teaching. Availability of weapons. All contribute. Even the way the story is being covered contributes. The worst part is this seems to be occurring with more and more frequency. Unfortunately this will result in more fear based legislation rather than looking closely at the root problems and correcting them. Sad day for us all. God help us.

I agree with you. I really think desensitizing everyone now has something to do with it, along with the ease of getting the weapons. The access people have to methods of how to pull something like this off (the internet), along with the weapons required to do so, is really a frightening scenario. I am glad I didn't have access to this amount of information when I was younger, it would have been overwhelming.

How about mandatory 2 year enlistment into the military? That way young kids (I'm talking 18-21 year olds) get to learn that shooting guns is not some fun video game, but in reality you are dealing with human life and once you pull the trigger, the consequences.

baja
12-14-2012, 02:41 PM
I've watched countless amounts of violent TV shows/movies along with countless hours of Call of Duty and other violent video games. I have never gone to a school, mall etc and shot anyone. The thought that people do this because of the violence they see in a video game or on TV is a little ignorant. Parents need to do better jobs of seeing that maybe something isn't right. For someone to do something this crazy you would have to think their are some signs.

My point is it is a contributing factor. Most likely you are a well balanced mentally healthy individual, not everyone is. It is those ill people that are most influenced by countless hours of violence available along with the other issues I mentioned. Like I said there is no easy answer. I sure don't have one.

Kid A
12-14-2012, 02:42 PM
Sure we can. Americas violent crime rate was at an all time high in the early 1990s and have dropped by about 35% since then, with the murder rate dropping nearly 50%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

In that same time period America has become quite a bit less religious.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/128276/increasing-number-no-religious-identity.aspx

It's pretty ridiculous try to draw together any sort of causation here but its even more ridiculous when the actual data correlation does not align with what you are stating.

Exactly. The US (along with most the world) has gotten significantly less violent over the last century. These mass shootings are an outlier phenomenon to a generally very good trend for our society. Which only increases the need for us to figure out why they happen and how best to stop them.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 02:43 PM
I've watched countless amounts of violent TV shows/movies along with countless hours of Call of Duty and other violent video games. I have never gone to a school, mall etc and shot anyone. The thought that people do this because of the violence they see in a video game or on TV is a little ignorant. Parents need to do better jobs of seeing that maybe something isn't right. For someone to do something this crazy you would have to think their are some signs.

what if violent imagary like video games only effects 1 in 10 thousand brains though? So you could have tons of examples of kids who played them with no problems, and it could still be a problem.

tesnyde
12-14-2012, 02:52 PM
[QUOTE=Kid A;3753284]I totally agree on the importance of strengthening the family unit and everything you said. I just don't agree with cutthemdown that "getting God back in schools" is the solution to such a deep problem; that seems like a simplistic, politically convenient stance to take when so much evidence points to the issues arising from broken homes.


I think many of the statements here today are over simplistic such as "Get a God back in school", this is a religion problem, this is just an American problem and Europe has it better, and crime rates saying we're just like the fifties. It's world wide, for every religious variable there exists a counter secular issue, and crime rates are highly political and manipulated so who knows what is true.

What I do know is there a lot of lost, isolated, scared, and scarred people out there. Religious freaks and secular sickos. You want good kids and citizens be a good parent and citizen yourself. Take care of your kids. Stay with your wives and visa versa. Have sit down dinners and asked your kids how they are doing. Ask the neighborhood kids how they are doing. let them know Being kind is cool. Say hi to your neighbors and strangers. Volunteer at your local schools. Read a book to some students. Fellas, how about joining Watch D.O.G.S. and if your kids school doesn't have it, bring it to the principal attention. Google it. It's a program that promotes dads, granddad, and other male figures involvement in schools, and school safety. You guys are mad, then lets do something. How about mentoring in schools. Our choice if we go to church or not, where we live, if we believe in gun rights, whatever, but its also our choice how we take care of kids and our neighbors. Get mad and do something about this crap.

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 02:54 PM
In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

LOL then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

God knows, Christianity has a long and hallowed history of peace and tranquility.

http://drtorgo.fastmail.fm/spanis04.jpg

Chris
12-14-2012, 03:04 PM
Exactly. The US (along with most the world) has gotten significantly less violent over the last century. These mass shootings are an outlier phenomenon to a generally very good trend for our society. Which only increases the need for us to figure out why they happen and how best to stop them.

So has the majority of the world. That doesn't mean the US doesn't suffer from significantly more gun violence than all the other developed nations.

Prodigal19
12-14-2012, 03:06 PM
Sorry you forgot to add in all the babies abortions kill. :)

Im pretty sure you realize you are being ridiculous but Ill entertain you anyways.
Abortion rates have been dropping for the past 30 years.

http://www.mccl.org/us-abortion-stats.html
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html

Lycan
12-14-2012, 03:11 PM
We need to get prayer and God back into our schools. The kids lack a moral compass and the teachings of Jesus Christ about our lord would help. We had guns back in the 50's and this studd didn't happen. The only real difference in schools since then is lack of religion. How many private religious schools have had these sorts of problems? I think i remember a couple but for sure not as many. By teaching kids about the love of Jesus Christ you can give them faith and hope. Something which we lack more and more of each decade.

To turn this into an excuse to force your religion onto people is just sick man.

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-14-2012, 03:18 PM
Where do criminals get guns? If they are buying them from stores or gun shows, then stricter laws help. If they are stealing them from law-abiding individuals, then having fewer guns in the hands of law abiding individuals helps.

Since you think fewer guns is not the answer, is more guns the answer? Is 2x the gun ownership rate of the rest of the world not enough? Or did we magically land on exactly the right number of guns in his country?

If someone wants to kill they will find a gun. They aren't going to just bottle up their evil and say "**** it. I can't find a gun so I guess I won't shoot anyone."

rugbythug
12-14-2012, 03:33 PM
If I knew that getting rid of my guns would save a kids life I would. However currently I'm thinking it will save more if I have them. I know where they are and what they are for.

mkporter
12-14-2012, 03:37 PM
If someone wants to kill they will find a gun. They aren't going to just bottle up their evil and say "**** it. I can't find a gun so I guess I won't shoot anyone."

Sometimes this is true, sometimes not. There are plenty of crimes of passion, in which the perpetrator would have chosen an alternate resolution if a gun had not been readily available. Look at the Jovan Belcher mess. He and his lady get into a fight about who the real baby-daddy is, and, oh look there are guns laying all over the house.

If it is harder to acquire assault weapons, it will at least take longer for people to acquire them. That leaves time for them to reconsider, or from someone to notice and intervene.

I agree that more effective gun control is not the ultimate answer to all of violent crime problems, nor is the prevalence of guns the cause of our violent crime problems. I do believe having more effective gun control reduces the frequency and severity of gun violence.

Destigmatizing and encouraging mental health care is our best answer, IMO, but we still have way too many guns.

El Minion
12-14-2012, 03:45 PM
Right. Because they're totally related.

cutthemdown has the answer to every problem: praying to skygod.

I see you haven't been touched by His Noodly Appendage as Cutthemdown has:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090119201511/fallout/images/e/e5/User_800px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

rugbythug
12-14-2012, 04:04 PM
I see you haven't been touched by His Noodly Appendage as Cutthemdown has:

http://images1.wikia.nocook
ie.net/__cb20090119201511/fallout/imagesUser_800px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

Any reason you need to be a dick?

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 04:05 PM
I've become comfortably numb.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 04:17 PM
Im pretty sure you realize you are being ridiculous but Ill entertain you anyways.
Abortion rates have been dropping for the past 30 years.

http://www.mccl.org/us-abortion-stats.html
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html

a pretty sizable decrease for white women. not so much in minority communities, tho they've historically been at ~4x higher rate for African-American women and ~2x higher rate for Hispanic women.

Irish Stout
12-14-2012, 04:43 PM
how many more gun laws do you want? As we take guns out of law abiding hands, it is free reign for the criminals. Let me know when a criminal is going to listen to a gun law and therefore, no longer be that criminal?

I'm not trying to be a d-bag with this question, but I do want to know. When have guns come out of the hands of law abiding citizens? My right to own a gun has never been hindered, so I don't know how gun regulation (not limitation) has effected us.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 04:49 PM
a lot of shoddy analysis going down in this thread, IMO, so mine will fit right in.

the belief that our godless society has enabled this is simultaneously misguided and insightful. being 'godless' as an informed or philosophical POV is actually something I encourage, but the problem is most 'godless' ppl today are godless simply because they don't care enough about those types of questions to actually ever attempt answering them. it's a de facto type of godlessness due to shallow ignorance, not any kind of enlightened study. I also think religious institutions are a net societal good, and that there are plenty of good reasons to believe in god and engage in community, not the least of which is a sense a belonging and developing meaningful relationships with other human beings. I imagine it a chore to be a mass murderer if you're constantly barraged with goodwill and messages of love. I hypothesize that basically just being concerned with existence and making honest attempts to understand it would raise the level of discourse and behavior in society. I don't care whether the fear of god or a deeper realization of your identity as a human being is what keeps you in line, just as long as it's effective. too many live for the next 15 minutes, and I'm among the worse.


in respect to the tiff about where and why violence takes place, I would remind those who somehow think "Bible Belt = violent anarchy" to consider the many different factors contributing to a violence rate. the American south is generally poorer and more ethnically diverse than the midwest, northeast, mountain west, or northwest part of the country. most of the violence is young, poor, black men committing crimes against other young, poor, black men. these tragedies are the lion's share of murders and robberies every year, and the evaluation as to why and how would probably not include religious turf wars. I think the stats show white, christian, southern suburbia to consistently be amongst the safest places in the country. another interesting thing to note is the prevalence of these mass shootings (Aurora, Wisconsin, Oregon, and now Connecticut) to be in affluent, white communities safely out of the Bible Belt. I don't really have a plausible theory as to why, but blaming this on Bubba doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.


it's a goddamn tragedy what happened today. I'm visibly agitated and was on the verge of tears while sitting in traffic on my commute home. I tuned into NPR and they were interviewing all these criminologists and psychologists who basically said there is no profile for this type if thing. perfectly sane people demonstrate the same personality quirks and behaviors as these killers. the next one could be anybody, and the frequency of these types of crimes is consistent across decades. these sadists aren't going anywhere, and I'd prefer to preserve the option to blow one away should the opportunity arise, for myself and for my community.

Agamemnon
12-14-2012, 04:51 PM
This isn't about guns people. This is about the degrading mental health of people in the modern world. Who knows what the solution is, but getting rid of guns is trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

extralife
12-14-2012, 04:57 PM
This isn't about guns people. This is about the degrading mental health of people in the modern world. Who knows what the solution is, but getting rid of guns is trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

this is true

but treating the symptoms is also what every doctor in the world does, and is in fact taught to do. kind of sucks, but its also kind of effective, kind of necessary, and certainly better than nothing. there comes a point where the childish whims of caprice and the irrational bonds of selfish self-identification are simply no longer worth it. losing your little toys, codified as a tragedy because someone with money in the market told you (general you) it was about the constitution, which you or I don't actually care about, is simply Not A Big Deal. you still got trucks and beer and the R lever. make do. we have too many guns in this country, and those guns shoot people who then die. one step at a time.

the real reason serious gun regulation will never happen in this country is because there is too much money moving around, which is the exact same reason anything that ever does or does not happen does, in fact, happen or not happen. we have to take responsibility for the society we live in. part of that is guns. part of that is money. part of that is our social makeup, which breeds the kind of alienation and destabilization that leads to these kinds of things with frightening and growing regularity. I'm sick of it. the now-standard response of mourn-the-victims-on-TV/forget-the-killer/argue-about-easily-defined-political-issues cycle that follows these events is a cancer, it is a means of writing everything off as an acceptable loss so that we can have a reason to go do what we were going to do anyway. it is about narcissism, about making everything about our own whims and pre-installed belief systems.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 05:04 PM
this is true

but treating the symptoms is also what every doctor in the world does, and is in fact taught to do. kind of sucks, but its also kind of effective, kind of necessary, and certainly better than nothing. there comes a point where the childish whims of caprice and the irrational bonds of selfish self-identification are simply no longer worth it. losing your little toys, codified as a tragedy because someone with money in the market told you (general you) it was about the constitution, which you or I don't actually care about, is simply Not A Big Deal. you still got trucks and beer and the R lever. make do. we have too many guns in this country, and those guns shoot people who then die. one step at a time.

this is assuming ppl don't believe guns can protect and deter from violent aggression. that they're crucial to living independently and well.

gun control is more like palliative care geared towards ephemeral comfort than any kind of actual healing.

Arkie
12-14-2012, 05:05 PM
Exactly. The US (along with most the world) has gotten significantly less violent over the last century. These mass shootings are an outlier phenomenon to a generally very good trend for our society. Which only increases the need for us to figure out why they happen and how best to stop them.

Mass murderers are seeking attention. I think increased media attention has attracted more copycats.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2012/07/21/shootings-gun-control-reuters-0721-art-g5jiarlo-10721gfx-mass-shootings-since-1999-eps.jpg

Agamemnon
12-14-2012, 05:05 PM
this is true

but treating the symptoms is also what every doctor in the world does, and is in fact taught to do. kind of sucks, but its also kind of effective, kind of necessary, and certainly better than nothing. there comes a point where the childish whims of caprice and the irrational bonds of selfish self-identification are simply no longer worth it. losing your little toys, codified as a tragedy because someone with money in the market told you (general you) it was about the constitution, which you or I don't actually care about, is simply Not A Big Deal. you still got trucks and beer and the R lever. make do. we have too many guns in this country, and those guns shoot people who then die. one step at a time.

I personally don't own any guns. But if you think that gun control is going to fix things you are delusional. Most hardened criminals already purchase their weapons through illicit means, and while it might reduce these kinds of shootings somewhat, it won't fix gun crime in general. If anything it will simply expose many law abiding citizens to more gun violence.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 05:05 PM
Humans can be so goddamn terrible it defies belief. I have four kids and this is literally my worst imaginable fear in real life.

extralife
12-14-2012, 05:13 PM
this is assuming ppl don't believe guns can protect and deter from violent aggression. that they're crucial to living independently and well.

gun control is more like palliative care geared towards ephemeral comfort than any kind of actual healing.

guns are not crucial to anything. you don't hunt for sustenance, you go buy your food at wal mart and then dream about hunting for sustenance. you don't protect your neighbors from <s>black people</s> violent sociopaths, you dream about the possibility of protecting your neighbors from violent sociopaths, so that you can then pretend you are a hero. there is no independence here. there is only fantasy. the gun represents an extension of the way you see yourself. find a new representation, because the reality of this fantasy is that people who actually do think about shooting living things in terms of reality are aided by your narcissism.

your post above is a pretty good one. where it doesn't veer into apology for a certain lifestyle, I think you are right. but if your argument is that guns deter from violent aggression, you will have to ask yourself, and genuinely believe the answer, whether or not the presence of a gun on the person of a victim or possible victim has ever saved as many lives as were just lost today, never mind all other days. we hear stories about violent people shooting up public places twice a year. have you ever heard a story about a violent person attempting to shoot up a public place, only he was stopped by your average fantasy suburbanite packing heat? and do you truly believe that the people vehemently against gun regulation are against it because they truly believe that guns are a net good? or do they just want to have a gun because guns are ****ing cool?

Agamemnon
12-14-2012, 05:13 PM
Mass murderers are seeking attention. I think increased media attention has attracted more copycats.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2012/07/21/shootings-gun-control-reuters-0721-art-g5jiarlo-10721gfx-mass-shootings-since-1999-eps.jpg

No doubt there's probably something to that. They'd be mentally deranged either way, but the constant media exposure of these events almost certainly influences them to take this course of action rather than something less massive in scope.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 05:15 PM
i guess Obama is saying when the grieving is over gun control is back on the table. its going to be such a year of working together in DC, can't wait to watch them errrrr, come together.

baja
12-14-2012, 05:16 PM
I am still trying to get my head around the vision of a human being murdering five year old kids one by one in cold blood. I know we are all different but this is a monster. How did he not get noticed? How can a human be that deranged and blend in with the rest society?

extralife
12-14-2012, 05:22 PM
Most hardened criminals already purchase their weapons through illicit means, and while it might reduce these kinds of shootings somewhat, it won't fix gun crime in general. If anything it will simply expose many law abiding citizens to more gun violence.

and most hardened criminals don't shoot up elementary schools.

the reason your movie-fantasy "hardened criminal" is able to purchase firearms through illicit means is because there are hundreds of millions of legally made, legally purchased guns in the United States. that's the end of the story. that's the reality.

expose law abiding citizens, yeah, right. because so often you hear of victims leaving this reality to enter a movie world where they are threatened only to jump behind a trash can, pull out their piece, and take down all the bad guys. so often you hear of potential criminals backing out of a life of crime because they're like yo, man, old man winters might be packin, I'm not risking it. no, what you hear about is is old man winters leaving his drawer unlocked so little boy winters can accidentally kill himself. what you hear about are young people in poor neighborhoods taking their legally owned guns and fleeing to the streets in order to have a better shot. what you hear about are disagreements leading to tragedies because one or more of the parties in question happen to own firearms. what you hear about are prisons packed with more black people than schools are. it's not worth it, I'm sorry.

extralife
12-14-2012, 05:22 PM
How did he not get noticed? How can a human be that deranged and blend in with the rest society?

everyone wants to ask these questions, but no one wants to know the answers

houghtam
12-14-2012, 05:25 PM
Mass murderers are seeking attention. I think increased media attention has attracted more copycats.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2012/07/21/shootings-gun-control-reuters-0721-art-g5jiarlo-10721gfx-mass-shootings-since-1999-eps.jpg

I agree, and I think instituting a ban on showing victim interviews, suspect information, etc. would have a much greater effect on curbing mass shootings than any sort of increased gun control would.

Not saying it's what we should do, just saying if we were to do something, that would be a better option than simply banning guns.

Cito Pelon
12-14-2012, 05:27 PM
The Christian God obviously has no input in this situation. No all-powerful "God" would permit such a situation. Same with that Norway thing. God's will, my ass. Allahu Akbar, my ass. Human will makes these things happen, God has nothing to do with it other than giving us free will in the first place. It's just a big game to see who comes out on top, that's the only sense I can make of it.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 05:29 PM
I am still trying to get my head around the vision of a human being murdering five year old kids one by one in cold blood. I know we are all different but this is a monster. How did he not get noticed? How can a human be that deranged and blend in with the rest society?

Throughout human history, the occasional truly evil a-hole has always existed. How is a gun any different than zyklon-B, a Ryder truck full of explosives, or a hijacked commuter jet? Its a different means to the same end. Humans are capable of the most incredibly evil stuff. Always have been, always will be.

El Minion
12-14-2012, 05:34 PM
Any reason you need to be a dick?

You Jesus Evangelical Freaks bring it upon yourselves. :wave:

gunns
12-14-2012, 05:34 PM
This isn't about guns people. This is about the degrading mental health of people in the modern world. Who knows what the solution is, but getting rid of guns is trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

I'm reading through this thread, about religion, about gun control, and this is the first one that mentions mental illness. But I'm not thinking that we need to treat the mental illness. I think THAT is the problem. The mental health society has infiltrated our society and made us all believers. What I see in my work is that these mental health "professionals" have a very subjective job and wonder at times if some of these "diagnosis" are to keep that money rolling in. I think we have given people an excuse for their bad behavior, you are mentally ill.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 05:39 PM
guns are not crucial to anything. you don't hunt for sustenance, you go buy your food at wal mart and then dream about hunting for sustenance. you don't protect your neighbors from <s>black people</s> violent sociopaths, you dream about the possibility of protecting your neighbors from violent sociopaths, so that you can then pretend you are a hero. there is no independence here. there is only fantasy. the gun represents an extension of the way you see yourself. find a new representation, because the reality of this fantasy is that people who actually do think about shooting living things in terms of reality are aided by your narcissism.

your post above is a pretty good one. where it doesn't veer into apology for a certain lifestyle, I think you are right. but if your argument is that guns deter from violent aggression, you will have to ask yourself, and genuinely believe the answer, whether or not the presence of a gun on the person of a victim or possible victim has ever saved as many lives as were just lost today, never mind all other days. we hear stories about violent people shooting up public places twice a year. have you ever heard a story about a violent person attempting to shoot up a public place, only he was stopped by your average fantasy suburbanite packing heat? and do you truly believe that the people vehemently against gun regulation are against it because they truly believe that guns are a net good? or do they just want to have a gun because guns are ****ing cool?

It's true, I harbor an especial loathing for hunting. It has more to do with subjecting myself to the elements and the fact I hate killing stuff needlessly than guns, tho. I think you inject a little too much bias into the psychology of why someone would want to own a gun. Self-preservation and an evolutionary impulse to ensure my genes propagate into the future seem the most obvious. I used to be staunchly anti-gun, ascribing similar caricatures as the one you described above to gun owners. "Who would want one? It's their little misguided fantasy," I thought. One night while visiting my aunt and uncle in North Carolina there was a break-in. I was posted up on the guest couch and about crapped my pants when I realized I wasn't alone. The dude vamoosed but after that I could totally see why someone would like to maintain a firearm. If you do a little digging, I also think you'd be surprised at the number of sane, sensible people who own one. Sometimes violent force only responds to violent force. We could take this macro and look at policies of appeasement and saber-rattling on the international scene, today and throughout history.

Would you admit that if you were to try to imagine yourself as a psychotic killer, the allure of a defenseless public arena (like a gun-free school zone) might be a prime target? I'm truly not angling for anything with a Q like that, because I really wanna know. If I wanna kill as many people as possible, my odds of surviving long enough to shed real blood would plummet if I was under the impression every person I attempted to kill was able to meet me with an equally lethal force? In fact, mass shootings might decrease as I would be outnumbered and outgunned at the outset. I imagine it very difficult, if not impossible, to prove the deterrence of these types of sadistic shenanigans
that might result from an armed society, but surely you can see the weight behind the theory? Pussies like the shooter today are drawn to weakness, even if that weakness happens to be ****ing elementary school students.

errand
12-14-2012, 05:41 PM
Since February 2, 1996, there have been 259 people shot or killed in other countries around the world in these type of shootings.....meanwhile 398 people have been shot or killed in the US.

Keep in mind that there were several US shootings that while they happened on school grounds weren't really "school shootings" per se....as a few were gang related killings, arguments over a ex-girlfriend screwing a new guy or disgruntled employee who shot the principal, etc...but I counted them anyways. One of the murders was a 6 yr. old who was shot by a classmate who was also 6 yrs. old....

what does it all mean...nothing I guess other than this happens around the world more than people on here have claimed.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 05:41 PM
The Christian God obviously has no input in this situation. No all-powerful "God" would permit such a situation. Same with that Norway thing. God's will, my ass. Allahu Akbar, my ass. Human will makes these things happen, God has nothing to do with it other than giving us free will in the first place. It's just a big game to see who comes out on top, that's the only sense I can make of it.

the problem of evil is as old as time, man. no free will without it, tho

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 05:50 PM
You Jesus Evangelical Freaks bring it upon yourselves. :wave:


evangelical atheists blow just as hard. at least the Jesus freaks often have pretty girls as part of the ensemble.

baja
12-14-2012, 05:54 PM
Throughout human history, the occasional truly evil a-hole has always existed. How is a gun any different than zyklon-B, a Ryder truck full of explosives, or a hijacked commuter jet? Its a different means to the same end. Humans are capable of the most incredibly evil stuff. Always have been, always will be.

What you say is true but for me there is something particularly heinous about this. Executing one by one little children in their school. Aside from the horror of the ones that lost their lives imagine the trauma all young school children will now live with everyday the enter their school for a very long time.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 06:09 PM
What you say is true but for me there is something particularly heinous about this. Executing one by one little children in their school. Aside from the horror of the ones that lost their lives imagine the trauma all young school children will now live with everyday the enter their school for a very long time.

My wife and I were already considering home schooling our kids. This is possibly the tipping point. I can't imagine what those poor parents are having to deal with right now. Five year olds, executed...

Arkie
12-14-2012, 06:15 PM
I think it may be a little irresponsible for an otherwise responsible law-abiding American not to own a gun because of the millions of other guns floating around. All gun fatalities are due to careless or criminal behavior.

Fedaykin
12-14-2012, 06:18 PM
In our country, our main religions don't teach that and we were better off back in the 50's when we were all Christians. But now we teach kids Christianity dumb, hey kid would you believe in a spaghetti monster you can't see.

LOL then people are surprised when kids turn into evil little things and shoot up a school.

So, there was no mass violence comparable to this in the 50's or before, huh?

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
12-14-2012, 06:27 PM
nothing short of building a time machine would of prevented this evil.
maybe if you had armed guards then maybe

JPPT1974
12-14-2012, 06:29 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with those that lost their loved ones in this tragedy. It is beyond words!

Remember the victims and their families!:Whaaaa!:

Bacchus
12-14-2012, 06:33 PM
My wife and I were already considering home schooling our kids. This is possibly the tipping point. I can't imagine what those poor parents are having to deal with right now. Five year olds, executed...

Then your kids die in a Mall shooting or at the movie theater. Instead of running and trying to hide, people need to take action.

Bronco X
12-14-2012, 06:35 PM
There is something that seems different about what is happening now versus atrocities of the past. Now killing is happening for the sake of killing... no other motivation other than too kill... no ideology but blood lust. There are probably examples in the past of this but honestly, the earliest example I can think of is Charles Whitman. Regardless it seems to be escalating, every act more heinous, more incomprehensible.

We need to put back into our world what the sick and twisted are trying to take away from us. We can't do anything about what they do. But we can control our own actions. There is no way to respond to acts like this other than countering them with our own acts of love, compassion and kindness. Sounds hokey perhaps, but there's something wrong out there, and we all need to step it up.

baja
12-14-2012, 06:37 PM
I think it may be a little irresponsible for an otherwise responsible law-abiding American not to own a gun because of the millions of other guns floating around. All gun fatalities are due to careless or criminal behavior.

It is with much sadness I must agree with this sentiment.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 06:39 PM
Then your kids die in a Mall shooting or at the movie theater. Instead of running and trying to hide, people need to take action.

In a mall or movie theater they are protected by their heat-packing parents. Same as in the home.

baja
12-14-2012, 06:39 PM
Then your kids die in a Mall shooting or at the movie theater. Instead of running and trying to hide, people need to take action.

What action?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 06:47 PM
What action?

The root cause of all societal ill is lack of parenting... especially from the father. How about we make it as tough to father kids as it is to buy a handgun from a retail store?

lonestar
12-14-2012, 06:53 PM
Man in China today stabbed 22 school children.
Children it's just sicking to think this kids had no chance




Forking a person to death is a different mental process than polling a trigger. If you can't see the difference between killing with drones or your bare hands, you're probably also unwilling to deal with this problem from any psychological perspective.

See post quoted above yours.. knife or fork just about the same they can inflict death or maiming on kids....

BTW nimrood I used a fork as an example.. Weapons are available everywhere.. a gallon of gas and a blasting cap or even a firecracker kills more..

for that matter a gallon of gas and a match, something you can get at the 7-11 down the street on your way to the school.. NO FBI background check is necessary..

lonestar
12-14-2012, 06:54 PM
The root cause of all societal ill is lack of parenting... especially from the father. How about we make it as tough to father kids as it is to buy a handgun from a retail store?

you mean money and an FBI background check?

baja
12-14-2012, 06:54 PM
The root cause of all societal ill is lack of parenting... especially from the father. How about we make it as tough to father kids as it is to buy a handgun from a retail store?


I agree that the break down of the family is the root cause of these types of deplorable acts but how to you implement something like you suggest.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 06:58 PM
you mean money and an FBI background check?

I realize it isn't stringent, but it does exclude convicted felons / domestic offenders / those under protective orders / drug convicts... which describes just about every POS absentee father.

Archer81
12-14-2012, 07:00 PM
Evil has a human face.

Prayers for the lost and the families of the victims.

:Broncos:

lonestar
12-14-2012, 07:01 PM
This is for all of you self righteous far left liberals.
how many of you will admit to having a gaming console with at least one shootem up game on them? Sorry I do not know the games out there today so fill in the blanks..

IMO those are the games that have driven society farther into the toilet .

I have yet to attend a Conceal Carry License class that does not teach gun responsibility, safety and sanity..

Had a parent or teacher had a CCL and been armed could any of that been stopped?

Posting a sign saying guns or from that matter weapons of any sort are not allowed is silly.. it will not stop things like this from happening.. If anything it empowers those nut jobs..

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:01 PM
I agree that the break down of the family is the root cause of these types of deplorable acts but how to you implement something like you suggest.

Its rhetorical. But we already have an accepted form of newborn male genital mutilation in the form of circumcision. Why not add a vasectomy then make everyone apply for a reversal which requires a background check and gainful employment? Again, rhetorical.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:03 PM
Aw shucks, another circumcision is bad rant.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:05 PM
This is for all of you self righteous far left liberals.
how many of you will admit to having a gaming console with at least one shootem up game on them? Sorry I do not know the games out there today so fill in the blanks..

IMO those are the games that have driven society farther into the toilet .

I have yet to attend a Conceal Carry License class that does not teach gun responsibility, safety and sanity..

Had a parent or teacher had a CCL and been armed could any of that been stopped?

Posting a sign saying guns or from that matter weapons of any sort are not allowed is silly.. it will not stop things like this from happening.. If anything it empowers those nut jobs..

I wonder what would have become to the teacher or parent who willfully carried a concealed weapon on those premises (despite the laws and signs against firearms in schools), and then successfully stopped this monster? Life in prison?

lonestar
12-14-2012, 07:05 PM
I realize it isn't stringent, but it does exclude convicted felons / domestic offenders / those under protective orders / drug convicts... which describes just about every POS absentee father.

not sure POS absentee fathers are quite covered in that list.. but should narrow the odds a bit..

Fedaykin
12-14-2012, 07:07 PM
Aw shucks, another circumcision is bad rant.

It is bad.

Not at all comparable to female circumcision (just a minor boo-boo in comparison), but call me crazy but I fully on board with not cutting parts off of _any_ children.

lonestar
12-14-2012, 07:07 PM
I wonder what would have become to the teacher or parent who willfully carried a concealed weapon on those premises (despite the laws and signs against firearms in schools), and then successfully stopped this monster? Life in prison?

Depends on the jury.. I would think they would be found not guilty but you can bet your ass that they would be charged and tried in the democratic socialist state of Connecticut..

Archer81
12-14-2012, 07:08 PM
This is for all of you self righteous far left liberals.
how many of you will admit to having a gaming console with at least one shootem up game on them? Sorry I do not know the games out there today so fill in the blanks..

IMO those are the games that have driven society farther into the toilet .

I have yet to attend a Conceal Carry License class that does not teach gun responsibility, safety and sanity..

Had a parent or teacher had a CCL and been armed could any of that been stopped?

Posting a sign saying guns or from that matter weapons of any sort are not allowed is silly.. it will not stop things like this from happening.. If anything it empowers those nut jobs..


A video game is not the reason people decide to murder someone. To say violent games = more violent people is simplistic. Banning guns, banning video games, banning movies or books or music does not suddenly make the violence stop. People are violent, our history is littered with pain and destruction and inflicted misery. That existed before guns and games. It will exist 1,000 years from now.

:Broncos:

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:09 PM
Aw shucks, another circumcision is bad rant.

You find another surgery -- one that is elective/medically unnecessary which is performed on a patient that is unable to give informed consent -- that isn't classified as battery and/or malpractice, and I'll eat my hat.

baja
12-14-2012, 07:10 PM
Its rhetorical. But we already have an accepted form of newborn male genital mutilation in the form of circumcision. Why not add a vasectomy then make everyone apply for a reversal which requires a background check and gainful employment? Again, rhetorical.

I know it was rhetorical. None the less it is a valid point. All that currently is required is sticking one's dick in a vagina and moving around a bit. Hell you have to get a license to catch a fish

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:11 PM
It is bad.

Not at all comparable to female circumcision (just a minor boo-boo in comparison), but call me crazy but I fully on board with not cutting parts off of _any_ children.

Well I don't remember it!

http://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads/2009/02/dreamstime_4530123.jpg

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:11 PM
Depends on the jury.. I would think they would be found not guilty but you can bet your ass that they would be charged and tried in the democratic socialist state of Connecticut..

So guaranteed jail time and financial ruin, in lieu of possible lifetime imprisonment.

lonestar
12-14-2012, 07:11 PM
Since February 2, 1996, there have been 259 people shot or killed in other countries around the world in these type of shootings.....meanwhile 398 people have been shot or killed in the US.

Keep in mind that there were several US shootings that while they happened on school grounds weren't really "school shootings" per se....as a few were gang related killings, arguments over a ex-girlfriend screwing a new guy or disgruntled employee who shot the principal, etc...but I counted them anyways. One of the murders was a 6 yr. old who was shot by a classmate who was also 6 yrs. old....

what does it all mean...nothing I guess other than this happens around the world more than people on here have claimed.


considering the rest of the world vs little old USA this takes the winds out of the sails of the anti gun nuts..

thanks for the research..

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 07:12 PM
I know it was rhetorical. None the less it is a valid point. All that currently is required is sticking one's dick in a vagina and moving around a bit. Hell you have to get a license to catch a fish

There was this guy once who wanted to say who could have a baby and who could not......hmmmm i forget what was his name again. Adolph something?

But now its not racial purity we seek. That would be wrong and racist. We now seek financial purity!

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:13 PM
You find another surgery -- one that is elective/medically unnecessary which is performed on a patient that is unable to give informed consent -- that isn't classified as battery and/or malpractice, and I'll eat my hat.

I understand it is more of a cultural thing, but damn I have a sexy penis.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 07:13 PM
considering the rest of the world vs little old USA this takes the winds out of the sails of the anti gun nuts..

thanks for the research..

yeah buts thats all the other countries combined lol.

lonestar
12-14-2012, 07:13 PM
So guaranteed jail time and financial ruin, in lieu of possible lifetime imprisonment.

Not necessarily NO responsible parent would ever convict this guy/gal for saving lives..

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:15 PM
I understand it is more of a cultural thing, but damn I have a sexy penis.

It would make more sense to perform neonatal mastectomies on everyone. About the same amount of tissue loss and pain, completely eliminate breast cancer.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:17 PM
It would make more sense to perform neonatal mastectomies on everyone. About the same amount of tissue loss and pain, completely eliminate breast cancer.

I'm Google'in photos and I'm about to puke!

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Not necessarily NO responsible parent would ever convict this guy/gal for saving lives..

Financial ruin and some jail time no matter what the jury's verdict.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:21 PM
Don't most schools have armed police officers nowadays anyways? I know that I did in middle school and high school -- which I think was pushed big time after Columbine. I wonder if this school did. . . probably not because it was an elementary school.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 07:21 PM
I agree that the break down of the family is the root cause of these types of deplorable acts but how to you implement something like you suggest.

I've actually heard a good deal about this o'er the last year or so. Some sociologist-type of bloke named Charles Murray penned a book detailing the rupture between cultural elite America and cultural lowerclass America. Basically how rich, white yuppies still get married and engage with their respective religious institutions, etc., whereas poorer, blue-collar whites are increasingly forming an underclass of single parents and endemic unemployment, etc. The irony in it is how the elites see themselves as drivers of social policy, and that social policy o'er the last 30-40 years has been one that tears at the traditional social fabric of society: marriage, childbirth, religion, and industriousness have all been frequent targets of progressives for years, even though it turns out they aren't taking their own advice. I guess the theory is economic stratification and societal malaise might be sizably affected by cultural causes like primacy of the family unit.

http://on.wsj.com/zmvMyS

baja
12-14-2012, 07:23 PM
There was this guy once who wanted to say who could have a baby and who could not......hmmmm i forget what was his name again. Adolph something?

But now its not racial purity we seek. That would be wrong and racist. We now seek financial purity!

Watch this to see where we are headed if we don't come up with something;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 07:27 PM
It would make more sense to perform neonatal mastectomies on everyone. About the same amount of tissue loss and pain, completely eliminate breast cancer.

I actually wanna become a neonatologist. :yayaya:

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:28 PM
I actually wanna become a neonatologist. :yayaya:

OBGYN is my dream!

Meck77
12-14-2012, 07:30 PM
The root cause of all societal ill is lack of parenting... especially from the father. How about we make it as tough to father kids as it is to buy a handgun from a retail store?

Unbelievably sad day for our country.

Agreed doc. I'm not sure sure being born with a pecker means you have the right to breed. I've said it before. When you adopt a dog from the pound they at least interview you and some of them even check your property. Any dude with a pecker can spread his seed and walk away no questions asked.

On a serious note I think the problem isn't so much as gun control as the mental health of our nation. Not sure what policy is now but years ago someone had to be a danger to themselves or others before someone could be admitted against their will for healthcare. Maybe that's changed. Bottom line is we have a lot of sick people walking around.

sinuous sausage
12-14-2012, 07:33 PM
OBGYN is my dream!

I hear it's a speciality you either love or hate. I just finished my app cycle for med school this past summer, so it's not like I have any kind of firsthand evidence. Emphasis on "hand"?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:37 PM
OBGYN is my dream!

Lol. No, it isn't. Spend about 5 minutes on an OB/GYN rotation and you will quickly change your mind. I have some stories that would blow your mind and render your involuntarily circumcised penis permanently flaccid.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:40 PM
Lol. No, it isn't. Spend about 5 minutes on an OB/GYN rotation and you will quickly change your mind. I have some stories that would blow your mind and render your involuntarily circumcised penis permanently flaccid.


I was just kiddin' Doc. Hilarious! Don't make me spit out my coffee. NOT NOW. NOT DURING FOOTBALL.

baja
12-14-2012, 07:41 PM
Lol. No, it isn't. Spend about 5 minutes on an OB/GYN rotation and you will quickly change your mind. I have some stories that would blow your mind and render your involuntarily circumcised penis permanently flaccid.

This post means nothing without pictures.

gunns
12-14-2012, 07:41 PM
Don't most schools have armed police officers nowadays anyways? I know that I did in middle school and high school -- which I think was pushed big time after Columbine. I wonder if this school did. . . probably not because it was an elementary school.

They had recently put in a security system which included having to ring a door bell to get into the building. They are wondering how he got in. I'm thinking they knew him as the son of one of the teachers and may have let him in. But have to wonder with the way they said he was dressed.

Fedaykin
12-14-2012, 07:44 PM
Lol. No, it isn't. Spend about 5 minutes on an OB/GYN rotation and you will quickly change your mind. I have some stories that would blow your mind and render your involuntarily circumcised penis permanently flaccid.

Yeah, the number of healthy, hot 18-35 somethings visiting an OBGYN are probably pretty small.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:44 PM
Unbelievably sad day for our country.

Agreed doc. I'm not sure sure being born with a pecker means you have the right to breed. I've said it before. When you adopt a dog from the pound they at least interview you and some of them even check your property. Any dude with a pecker can spread his seed and walk away no questions asked.

On a serious note I think the problem isn't so much as gun control as the mental health of our nation. Not sure what policy is now but years ago someone had to be a danger to themselves or others before someone could be admitted against their will for healthcare. Maybe that's changed. Bottom line is we have a lot of sick people walking around.

I used to moonlight in various emergency rooms during my surgical residency, and frequently had to deal with the suicidal / homicidal threat types. I would call the local mental health and law enforcement agencies, thus transferring the liability away from myself.... but it usually took an egregious act to get an involuntary emergency detention. Just acting crazy and saying you want to kill yourself and/or others rarely qualified.

baja
12-14-2012, 07:46 PM
They had recently put in a security system which included having to ring a door bell to get into the building. They are wondering how he got in. I'm thinking they knew him as the son of one of the teachers and may have let him in. But have to wonder with the way they said he was dressed.

The buzzer system only goes into effect at 9;30 AM before that anyone can get in. Don't understand that one?

The killer's mother also worked at the school so they probably knew him.

Cito Pelon
12-14-2012, 07:47 PM
I wonder what would have become to the teacher or parent who willfully carried a concealed weapon on those premises (despite the laws and signs against firearms in schools), and then successfully stopped this monster? Life in prison?

A knife in the right hands can stop a gunman. Less than 3 1/2 inch blades are legal. There's many a knife with less than 3 1/2 inch blades that are pretty badass. Just saying.

Requiem
12-14-2012, 07:49 PM
They had recently put in a security system which included having to ring a door bell to get into the building. They are wondering how he got in. I'm thinking they knew him as the son of one of the teachers and may have let him in. But have to wonder with the way they said he was dressed.

:( Who would let someone dressed like that in?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:50 PM
This post means nothing without pictures.

Picture yourself standing in completely saturated socks and shoes. The wetness derived from meconium stained amniotic fluid.

baja
12-14-2012, 07:55 PM
Picture yourself standing in completely saturated socks and shoes. The wetness derived from meconium stained amniotic fluid.
Dude I just ate!!!!!

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 07:59 PM
Dude I just ate!!!!!

That's nothing in comparison to some other shiat that I probably need therapy to get over. I had to do a month on OB/GYN as a med student, then another month as an intern. Worst two months of my life.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2012, 08:01 PM
Don't most schools have armed police officers nowadays anyways? I know that I did in middle school and high school -- which I think was pushed big time after Columbine. I wonder if this school did. . . probably not because it was an elementary school.

Sure, if you go to school in Barter Town.

I honestly don't think any schools in the entire state of Mass have full time armed police officers, no matter how bad the area. Especially not elementary schools.

I'd be shocked if more than 10% of schools in the country had armed officers permanently in place in them.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-14-2012, 08:11 PM
Sure, if you go to school in Barter Town.

I honestly don't think any schools in the entire state of Mass have full time armed police officers, no matter how bad the area. Especially not elementary schools.

I'd be shocked if more than 10% of schools in the country had armed officers permanently in place in them.

If it were up to me, I'd say that any place that bans concealed weapons must provide armed security and metal detection check-in like an airport or court house... otherwise law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves by any means.

gunns
12-14-2012, 08:22 PM
The buzzer system only goes into effect at 9;30 AM before that anyone can get in. Don't understand that one?

The killer's mother also worked at the school so they probably knew him.

Yeah that's what I said about the mother. But now they are reporting that she was unemployed. She was actually a teachers aid. So many different stories.

Rother8
12-14-2012, 08:39 PM
I wonder if the people in the middle east with children killed by drone strikes (often completely innocent) will get this much attention and empathy.

gunns
12-14-2012, 08:40 PM
Just have to say that I held it together today, primarily being in shock, over this deplorable act. But seeing some of the parents who experienced the greatest loss of their lives, experiencing every parents greatess nightmare, took away the shock and brought the unbearable reality of what these parents are going through. It is a freak of nature to lose a child and in such a horrific way I can only imagine from being a mother the depths of their grief. I never ever want to know that reality and my prayers will include those parents tonight. As someone said, these children were all of our children today and that is true. My heart is truly broken.

gunns
12-14-2012, 08:43 PM
I wonder if the people in the middle east with children killed by drone strikes (often completely innocent) will get this much attention and empathy.

C'mon dude. Many of us have felt anguish of what happens to any innocent child in situations like that. People can mourn without pages on a message board. I really don't feel this is the time or place for you to start condemning people for your perceived opinion.

colorado jones
12-14-2012, 08:55 PM
I wonder if the people in the middle east with children killed by drone strikes (often completely innocent) will get this much attention and empathy.

You should move there and find out.

Don't forget to write. :wave:

Rother8
12-14-2012, 09:02 PM
C'mon dude. Many of us have felt anguish of what happens to any innocent child in situations like that. People can mourn without pages on a message board. I really don't feel this is the time or place for you to start condemning people for your perceived opinion.


I do agree that one was in poor taste. I'll start over.

I think it's awful that senseless murders are being committed anywhere on the globe.


Perhaps with all the attention tragedies like these generate over the internet that people will become less and less accepting of anything involving human suffering that's not 100% necessary. Immediate, global response to these horrible outcomes is something that wasn't here 20 years ago and hopefully, through shared experiences and common sense, we can better prepare society towards not tolerating any of this kind of bull ****.

Popps
12-14-2012, 09:07 PM
I do agree that one was in poor taste. I'll start over.

I think it's awful that senseless murders are being committed anywhere on the globe.



It's simple, natural, logical human nature for pack animals (humans) to tend to their own.... those close in proximity. It's literally a function of nature.

Let people here grieve and keep your political bull**** out.

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 09:10 PM
Since god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnieverything else (see? I remember my catechism) I'm presuming he was sitting, or standing, or floating somewhere or other, and observed this entire thing taking place. He heard every prayer. Every cry for mercy. Every cry for mommy. In other words, he watched. What's the point of being omnipowerful if you don't take action? And now the community is praying to him to help them get through this? This is why religion requires a leap of faith. Logically, it is insane.

The only way it makes sense is if the crazy ape himself made up this god. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Popps
12-14-2012, 09:24 PM
Since god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnieverything else (see? I remember my catechism) I'm presuming he was sitting, or standing, or floating somewhere or other, and observed this entire thing taking place. He heard every prayer. Every cry for mercy. Every cry for mommy. In other words, he watched. What's the point of being omnipowerful if you don't take action? And now the community is praying to him to help them get through this? This is why religion requires a leap of faith. Logically, it is insane.

The only way it makes sense is if the crazy ape himself made up this god. Then, it makes perfect sense.

I'm not religious but your "argument" dumbs down the concept of god to fit your disdain for the concept. You're far more intelligent that I am, and you know that almost all religions believe god created man with free will.

I'm not going to get into god here because I don't feel the need to justify any belief I may have, or denigrate yours.

But I am going to leave this thread, as it's clear that in typical fashion... people are using the death's of children to advance their own political agendas.

Peace.

Beantown Bronco
12-14-2012, 09:24 PM
Since god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnieverything else (see? I remember my catechism) I'm presuming he was sitting, or standing, or floating somewhere or other, and observed this entire thing taking place. He heard every prayer. Every cry for mercy. Every cry for mommy. In other words, he watched. What's the point of being omnipowerful if you don't take action? And now the community is praying to him to help them get through this? This is why religion requires a leap of faith. Logically, it is insane.

The only way it makes sense is if the crazy ape himself made up this god. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Pacino explains it perfectly here:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jARp24AJWLk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 09:27 PM
Go talk to a minister about why god lets bad things happen. We have free will and there is a fight between good and evil. And if god isnt real believing in him can still be for good because the tenets of the religion are good ones. More religion and prayer in school wouldn't stop things like this but it could help some. Also belonging to a church is a good support group for millions of people. Even if your not religious you have to see that the church does a lot of good for people.

cutthemdown
12-14-2012, 09:28 PM
It seems like every week there is a new tragedy of the week on the Mane. Be nice for a week to go by without some earth shattering type tragedy so we can just talk football.

lonestar
12-14-2012, 09:41 PM
If it were up to me, I'd say that any place that bans concealed weapons must provide armed security and metal detection check-in like an airport or court house... otherwise law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves by any means.

:thumbs:

Jekyll15Hyde
12-14-2012, 09:53 PM
Since god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnieverything else (see? I remember my catechism) I'm presuming he was sitting, or standing, or floating somewhere or other, and observed this entire thing taking place. He heard every prayer. Every cry for mercy. Every cry for mommy. In other words, he watched. What's the point of being omnipowerful if you don't take action? And now the community is praying to him to help them get through this? This is why religion requires a leap of faith. Logically, it is insane.

The only way it makes sense is if the crazy ape himself made up this god. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus