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Broncos_OTM
12-14-2012, 10:53 PM
Sad day. Can we keep the political bull**** out. Take it to wrp

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 11:33 PM
I'm not religious but your "argument" dumbs down the concept of god to fit your disdain for the concept. You're far more intelligent that I am, and you know that almost all religions believe god created man with free will.

I'm not going to get into god here because I don't feel the need to justify any belief I may have, or denigrate yours.

But I am going to leave this thread, as it's clear that in typical fashion... people are using the death's of children to advance their own political agendas.

Peace.

It has nothing to do with politics. I'm serious about it. Whether humans have free will or not, a benevolent god cannot sit by and watch such things happen. This is what drove me from belief. This kind of disregard for evil. The last straw for me was the tsunami in Japan. A school was swept away with something like 64 children in it. That's when I stop buying into it.

Rohirrim
12-14-2012, 11:36 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

Time and experience are turning me into a stoic.

bpc
12-14-2012, 11:57 PM
Ironic as values decay & the godless continue their attack on religion, the family, etc, things are eradicated from society as we know it, these attacks are starting to multiply. Things that make you go hmmmmmm....

c_lazy_r
12-15-2012, 01:45 AM
Since god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnieverything else (see? I remember my catechism) I'm presuming he was sitting, or standing, or floating somewhere or other, and observed this entire thing taking place. He heard every prayer. Every cry for mercy. Every cry for mommy. In other words, he watched. What's the point of being omnipowerful if you don't take action? And now the community is praying to him to help them get through this? This is why religion requires a leap of faith. Logically, it is insane.

The only way it makes sense is if the crazy ape himself made up this god. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Judgement?

lonestar
12-15-2012, 02:01 AM
Ironic as values decay & the godless continue their attack on religion, the family, etc, things are eradicated from society as we know it, these attacks are starting to multiply. Things that make you go hmmmmmm....

Pretty conservative thinking for OM. Watch your back.

c_lazy_r
12-15-2012, 02:05 AM
It has nothing to do with politics. I'm serious about it. Whether humans have free will or not, a benevolent god cannot sit by and watch such things happen. This is what drove me from belief. This kind of disregard for evil. The last straw for me was the tsunami in Japan. A school was swept away with something like 64 children in it. That's when I stop buying into it.

Your argument about you being "driven from belief" is predicated on the the fact that dying is a bad thing. What if it's not? What if the people that died were, in fact, rewarded in death?

I have 5 kids and, God forbid, anything like this happened to them, I pray that I'd have the strength to believe they were in a better place. That they were chosen because of their belief and being rewarded.

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 02:10 AM
Religion gets blamed for violence and blamed for evil events the god allows to happen. It's obvious that people who have turned their backs and closed their hearts to the love of God just don't understand faith and how free choice plays into that. A world without evil would have no personal challenge of faith. Maybe it is all BS but when believed it gives strength and helps people cope with things like this.

Many of you seem to think the govt can help by limiting guns but i doubt that would be the end of mass killings like this.

Dexter
12-15-2012, 02:20 AM
Your argument about you being "driven from belief" is predicated on the the fact that dying is a bad thing. What if it's not? What if the people that died were, in fact, rewarded in death?

I have 5 kids and, God forbid, anything like this happened to them, I pray that I'd have the strength to believe they were in a better place. That they were chosen because of their belief and being rewarded.

I think it's okay, and good for families to think their children are in a better place and that they will see them again. If this belief helps these poor parents to cope, or gives them any sense of hope and faith to live on, then great.

With that said however, I reject the notion that a life ever taken away is ever a "reward" from god. If these children were chosen to be shot and brutally murdered in that way, it's not a god I'd want to believe in. Religion is a complicated issue, and one in which each person believes differently. I can respect that.

But life is precious, even if there is an afterlife. We shouldn't minimize the huge loss of life by using the word "rewarded." Not to mention, these kids at their young ages most likely never even had chance to "find" themselves and what they truly believe. So to say they were being "rewarded" for their belief seems wrong.

This is just a truly devastating and awful event. One of many that occur frequently around the planet, and in our country. Violence happens every day around the world. Maybe not at this level, but it still happens. So let's put the blame of this on our violent culture and mental illness where it should be and not anything else. People who are claiming it's due to "godlesness" are obviously idiots and ignorant to all of the violence stemming from religion throughout history. Furthermore, to those talking about free will, you can't believe in free will when a gunman decides to murder children, and then say god just wanted them in a better place. How does that make sense?

Action
12-15-2012, 02:41 AM
This has nothing to do with religion or guns.

This has to do with an 20 year old autistic male. He had a condition...he was obviously unable to feel anything for another human being, or anyone else. This isn't about a criminal who went out and sought for guns to plan and scheme this operation. This is about a human who is INCAPABLE of feeling for someone else, and thinking like a "normal" person would.

This is about mental health... guns is a cop out. I have no idea what religion is doing in here.

Beantown Bronco
12-15-2012, 04:57 AM
Ironic as values decay & the godless continue their attack on religion, the family, etc, things are eradicated from society as we know it, these attacks are starting to multiply. Things that make you go hmmmmmm....

Another OMane myth.

Anyone who's studied criminology knows and can back up with data, the fact that crime and, most importantly to this discussion, the rate of mass murders in this country and the world in general have not gone up in the last few years. Thanks to the media and internet, etc, it SEEMS like these horrible things are happening more, but they're not.

Old Dude
12-15-2012, 05:30 AM
I can barely imagine what the parents of the slain children are going through.

st.bernard
12-15-2012, 06:39 AM
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.

gunns
12-15-2012, 07:00 AM
I'm one who believes that heaven is a better, yet obivously unknown place. I would never believe my children were "chosen" to die. I believe God loves EVERYONE equally and because of free agency given to us, God is in mourning over the choice of a young man. But those children were most special to God and were welcomed directly into his arms. As a parent, even with those beliefs, my heart would be torn out, my hopes and dreams shattered. Yes, I would turn to God for some sense of relief but I know only time would make it easier, but would never heal the huge hole in my life.

This was not God's will, it was Adam Lanza's choice. And I feel God is sad about that, for those children and for Adam.

Jekyll15Hyde
12-15-2012, 07:02 AM
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.

Fail

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 07:07 AM
It has nothing to do with politics. I'm serious about it. Whether humans have free will or not, a benevolent god cannot sit by and watch such things happen. This is what drove me from belief. This kind of disregard for evil. The last straw for me was the tsunami in Japan. A school was swept away with something like 64 children in it. That's when I stop buying into it.

meh. if god exists, I wouldn't imagine he solicits your or anyone else's advice on what he can or cannot do. the emotional blowback from catastrophes is certainly understandable, but don't you wonder from where your sense of injustice comes? if an act really is evil, it means good and evil exist, and that infers god. I can't figuratively beat god into a nonentity with the concepts that only a god could ever give me. that's illogical.

Natural disasters are on another level of seeming senselessness, in that there is no human free will involved.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 07:11 AM
This has nothing to do with religion or guns.

This has to do with an 20 year old autistic male. He had a condition...he was obviously unable to feel anything for another human being, or anyone else. This isn't about a criminal who went out and sought for guns to plan and scheme this operation. This is about a human who is INCAPABLE of feeling for someone else, and thinking like a "normal" person would.

This is about mental health... guns is a cop out. I have no idea what religion is doing in here.

sure, but plenty of autistic people never develop an urge to go shoot-up an elementary school. what else is at play?

gunns
12-15-2012, 07:21 AM
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s480x480/67081_438032752917272_757075392_n.jpg

broncobum6162
12-15-2012, 07:38 AM
Religion gets blamed for violence and blamed for evil events the god allows to happen. It's obvious that people who have turned their backs and closed their hearts to the love of God just don't understand faith and how free choice plays into that. A world without evil would have no personal challenge of faith. Maybe it is all BS but when believed it gives strength and helps people cope with things like this.

Many of you seem to think the govt can help by limiting guns but i doubt that would be the end of mass killings like this.

Just ask the people of NY and Chicago how the ban on weapons has affected the crime rate.........

broncobum6162
12-15-2012, 07:41 AM
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.

Taco......where is the like button? "Like" :thumbs:

Kaylore
12-15-2012, 08:17 AM
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s480x480/67081_438032752917272_757075392_n.jpg

Rep.

FantomForce
12-15-2012, 08:54 AM
I'm one who believes that heaven is a better, yet obivously unknown place. I would never believe my children were "chosen" to die. I believe God loves EVERYONE equally and because of free agency given to us, God is in mourning over the choice of a young man. But those children were most special to God and were welcomed directly into his arms. As a parent, even with those beliefs, my heart would be torn out, my hopes and dreams shattered. Yes, I would turn to God for some sense of relief but I know only time would make it easier, but would never heal the huge hole in my life.

This was not God's will, it was Adam Lanza's choice. And I feel God is sad about that, for those children and for Adam.

Well put

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-15-2012, 08:54 AM
Fail

Ridiculously lazy and stupid response to an honest post

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 08:56 AM
Your argument about you being "driven from belief" is predicated on the the fact that dying is a bad thing. What if it's not? What if the people that died were, in fact, rewarded in death?

I have 5 kids and, God forbid, anything like this happened to them, I pray that I'd have the strength to believe they were in a better place. That they were chosen because of their belief and being rewarded.

A true "reward" for these kids would have been to go home to their mommies and daddies and sleep in their own beds. To suggest that such a death can be interpreted as a reward is macabre, at best.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 09:00 AM
It is a truly sad thing that happened. As a father and step-father, it only breaks my heart. But, I do honestly feel that there is a breakdown in our society. A whole list of social ill's that are endemic to what our society has become. No personal responsibility is a biggie. People refusing to get jobs, just living off the public dole. The entire idea of gun control though makes me want to puke. The forefathers of our country I honestly believe would go apoplectic if they could see what we have turned this country into. A person in an earlier thread pointed out the breakdown of families and families eating together. This would be an excellent starting point. Social values have completely broken down. Case in point. Colorado just passed the pot law making maryijuana legal. Really? Violance in everything. We glorify war. The gaming industry makes a great living off of violence. Call of Duty anyone? Gaming is just that, gaming. But it is so pervasive. Parental oversight of our kids. Corporal punishment is frowned on. I do believe that our society has come of the tracks and not sure that it will ever get back on. There are just so many things wrong with society's values today. And, the loss of these values is coming at the top of our government also. Call me old fashioned. But, since I rambled on, mainly from anger and grief at what happened, my thoughts are with those that suffered devastating losses yesterday morning. At Christmas. Peace everyone.

In every generation somebody makes this same lament, that the values and mores of society are breaking down. There was a famous one written by Plato, and another about fifteen hundred years later by Juvenal. Both complained that the young were turning away from the gods and the values of their forefathers. As Vonnegut used to say, "And so it goes."

Requiem
12-15-2012, 09:03 AM
Only simple minded fools would try to link a madman's shooting to the moral decay of society, aka -- an unchristian nation. Take your holier than thou attitude and shove it up your asses and stop trying to justify your belief system because of these tragic events. Using dead children to promote your agenda is ****ing sick.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 09:05 AM
I'm one who believes that heaven is a better, yet obivously unknown place. I would never believe my children were "chosen" to die. I believe God loves EVERYONE equally and because of free agency given to us, God is in mourning over the choice of a young man. But those children were most special to God and were welcomed directly into his arms. As a parent, even with those beliefs, my heart would be torn out, my hopes and dreams shattered. Yes, I would turn to God for some sense of relief but I know only time would make it easier, but would never heal the huge hole in my life.

This was not God's will, it was Adam Lanza's choice. And I feel God is sad about that, for those children and for Adam.

That's the difficulty I suppose, in not believing. There is nowhere to turn to for comfort. This is such a horrible event that I look for a reason, or some kind of rationale, or some kind of explanation, but in reality, there simply isn't one. We are left with empty hands, left to find peace as best we can. As the father of three sons I cannot contemplate such grief as these parents must feel. Shalom.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 09:06 AM
sure, but plenty of autistic people never develop an urge to go shoot-up an elementary school. what else is at play?

Parental failure. How does a kid with a known personality disorder gain access to firearms and know how to use them with such efficiency?

baja
12-15-2012, 09:29 AM
Only simple minded fools would try to link a madman's shooting to the moral decay of society, aka -- an unchristian nation. Take your holier than thou attitude and shove it up your asses and stop trying to justify your belief system because of these tragic events. Using dead children to promote your agenda is ****ing sick.

Christianity has no exclusivity on morality. In fact one could make a case that because of the level of Judgment taught in most religious sects their members are less moral that non secular persons.

gyldenlove
12-15-2012, 09:38 AM
Parental failure. How does a kid with a known personality disorder gain access to firearms and know how to use them with such efficiency?

A combination of poor parenting, easy access to firearms and very difficult access to proper mental health care.

BroncsCheer
12-15-2012, 09:40 AM
I slept in my 4yo's bed with her last night, not wanting to let her out of my grasp. I had hoped to have a kind of clarity this morning when I woke up about this, but all I can think of are the presents under Connecticut trees that won't be opened by their intended recipients, families that have been crippled, and the de facto crowdsourcing that is going on all over the Internet for a solution to the obvious problem. No clarity. .....

Mental health issues are the gorilla in the room.
Drugs, continuous unfiltered information, poor parenting, and personal property and privacy rights are the catalysts that make pinning the gorilla down so difficult.

All of us should say 'I love you' to at least one other person today and every day.

That's all I got.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 09:50 AM
Parental failure. How does a kid with a known personality disorder gain access to firearms and know how to use them with such efficiency?

I just want to let you know, that rep message you sent me was the most vile I've ever received in all the years I've been on this board.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 10:02 AM
meh. if god exists, I wouldn't imagine he solicits your or anyone else's advice on what he can or cannot do. the emotional blowback from catastrophes is certainly understandable, but don't you wonder from where your sense of injustice comes? if an act really is evil, it means good and evil exist, and that infers god. I can't figuratively beat god into a nonentity with the concepts that only a god could ever give me. that's illogical.

Natural disasters are on another level of seeming senselessness, in that there is no human free will involved.

Or it could mean that if man invented god, then he has those attributes in himself and when he imagined a god, he invested him with those, what he considered the best parts of himself?

swaiy
12-15-2012, 10:11 AM
Why does this have to turn into a crusade to cast doubt as to whether God exists or not? If you believe, you believe. If you don't, you don't. You guys need to step off.

No matter what you believe, kids died. It is possible to talk about that tragic event without attacking religious beliefs or lack of them. Good grief.

Pony Boy
12-15-2012, 10:14 AM
I just want to let you know, that rep message you sent me was the most vile I've ever received in all the years I've been on this board.

I just want to let you know (and everyone else on the Mane), that rep message you sent me was the most vile I've ever received in all the years I've been on this board.

Fixed it for you .... I bet you were a tattle-tail in school.......

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 10:16 AM
Only simple minded fools would try to link a madman's shooting to the moral decay of society, aka -- an unchristian nation. Take your holier than thou attitude and shove it up your asses and stop trying to justify your belief system because of these tragic events. Using dead children to promote your agenda is ****ing sick.

Using Dead children to attack an opposing posters belief is hypocritical.

Irish Stout
12-15-2012, 10:23 AM
Just ask the people of NY and Chicago how the ban on weapons has affected the crime rate.........

Crime has done nothing but drop in NYC. I remember hearing a couple years ago that they had the lowest homicides since 1963.

People don't seem to get that there can be gun regulation without gun limitation to law abiding citizens.

Irish Stout
12-15-2012, 10:29 AM
A friend of mine who is extremely religious has posted a picture on Facebook of a sign that reads:

"When they asked why God was not in the school that day, God responded: "because I'm not allowed in schools"".

This doesn't match my beliefs of a loving God. This attitude seems so petty and vengeful that I cannot understand its association to a Christian God. Not to mention its also an incorrect position. There have been millions who've been harmed in the name of God or even killed, raped or tortured in a house of God. It's human will that God gave us that is screwed up - not his will. Whether you believe in a God or not, it's always humans who act and decide.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 10:30 AM
Religion gets blamed for violence and blamed for evil events the god allows to happen. It's obvious that people who have turned their backs and closed their hearts to the love of God just don't understand faith and how free choice plays into that. A world without evil would have no personal challenge of faith. Maybe it is all BS but when believed it gives strength and helps people cope with things like this.

Many of you seem to think the govt can help by limiting guns but i doubt that would be the end of mass killings like this.

IMO many here believe the government is their savior.

They are incapable of knowing better.

Instead they should believe in God.

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 10:33 AM
Crime has done nothing but drop in NYC. I remember hearing a couple years ago that they had the lowest homicides since 1963.

People don't seem to get that there can be gun regulation without gun limitation to law abiding citizens.

I think there is more gun control by choice today than by Political Practice. This I agree with wholeheartedly. However I fear the country that allows those with power to decide how those out of power get to defend themselves. It is a bad practice any way you slice it. More unarmed citizens have been killed by their armed govt than will ever be killed by armed crazy people. It really boils down to how long you think this country will last and stay free. If you think forever than you deny that every govt fails. If you think past your lifetime than you should be good and only your offspring will be in trouble.

I care for my family and reserve the right to do so as violently as it requires.

st.bernard
12-15-2012, 10:33 AM
Only simple minded fools would try to link a madman's shooting to the moral decay of society, aka -- an unchristian nation. Take your holier than thou attitude and shove it up your asses and stop trying to justify your belief system because of these tragic events. Using dead children to promote your agenda is ****ing sick.

You are something else. Generally I like what you have to write about as far as the Broncos go. But if you really think that our society isn't slowly coming apart? Just wow. This has nothing whatsoever to do with being christian or anything else. wow. It even sounds like you were one of the idiots that voted for pot legalization.

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 10:36 AM
People have reversed the role of God. People are made to give glory to God. God is not created to give glory to people.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 10:37 AM
Ridiculously lazy and stupid response to an honest post

Was thinking much the same thing. I guess there has to be some morons to counter balance the good people.

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 10:37 AM
You are something else. Generally I like what you have to write about as far as the Broncos go. But if you really think that our society isn't slowly coming apart? Just wow. This has nothing whatsoever to do with being christian or anything else. wow. It even sounds like you were one of the idiots that voted for pot legalization.

Not sure how those go together. Hard to be more conservative than I am and I voted for Pot Legalization.

Irish Stout
12-15-2012, 10:47 AM
I think there is more gun control by choice today than by Political Practice. This I agree with wholeheartedly. However I fear the country that allows those with power to decide how those out of power get to defend themselves. It is a bad practice any way you slice it. More unarmed citizens have been killed by their armed govt than will ever be killed by armed crazy people. It really boils down to how long you think this country will last and stay free. If you think forever than you deny that every govt fails. If you think past your lifetime than you should be good and only your offspring will be in trouble.

I care for my family and reserve the right to do so as violently as it requires.

I would personally love to see every US citizen or resident be required to take a firearms safety class when they turn 18. At the same time that we have to register for the draft. I think this would be the type of regulation that should not deter actual gun ownership, but could reap many benefits.

I also have a hard time understanding how its so much harder to get a license (you must take a test both written and actual use), buy a vehicle, get it registered and get insurance than it is to get a gun. There is no testing requirement for owning a weapon.

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 10:50 AM
I would personally love to see every US citizen or resident be required to take a firearms safety class when they turn 18. At the same time that we have to register for the draft. I think this would be the type of regulation that should not deter actual gun ownership, but could reap many benefits.

I also have a hard time understanding how its so much harder to get a license (you must take a test both written and actual use), buy a vehicle, get it registered and get insurance than it is to get a gun. There is no testing requirement for owning a weapon.

2 things you must do a test and other things go a license to hunt. Their is no requirement when buying a car.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 10:59 AM
I just want to let you know, that rep message you sent me was the most vile I've ever received in all the years I've been on this board.

It was on par with your post. Cry about it some more though.

Dedhed
12-15-2012, 11:13 AM
I'm one who believes that heaven is a better place.

This is the fallacy of religion and of belief in general. People who are suffering in life take solace in the belief that there must be something better somewhere else or in some future reality. Yet it is that very belief that is often used to justify heinous acts.

I don't think that is the case here; I think this was simply the acting of an ill minded individual.

However, with a belief in any future end one can justify any present means to get there.

Dedhed
12-15-2012, 11:17 AM
I would personally love to see every US citizen or resident be required to take a firearms safety class when they turn 18. At the same time that we have to register for the draft.

Trying so solve individual violence by requiring people to take part in unified violence?

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 11:22 AM
It was on par with your post. Cry about it some more though.

It had nothing to do with my post. I was making a legitimate point about a legitimate question. You were insulting my mother. Would you like to meet somewhere and resolve it, or are you a chicken **** little weasel?

Irish Stout
12-15-2012, 11:27 AM
2 things you must do a test and other things go a license to hunt. Their is no requirement when buying a car.

Hunting license yes. Hunters safety class is fantastic. No test to own a gun.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 11:28 AM
Or it could mean that if man invented god, then he has those attributes in himself and when he imagined a god, he invested him with those, what he considered the best parts of himself?

you're basically casting the human race as "god" in that case. human beings believe a lot of different things, including the belief that there is a god, which would sort out to god (as the human race) believing it wasn't god, in which case god would be wrong, in which case god would not be god.

I find it helpful to think of god independently of any experience I've had with his putative followers. he wouldn't be some bearded bloke in the sky raining down fireballs and helping the Broncos miraculously make the playoffs: he would instead be reality itself, and the force making the physical world and my reasoning in the physical world coherent. to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, if I were to perfectly prove that god does not exist in reality, I would immediately examine how such a reality came to be that I could understand so perfectly. the highest proof and reasoning of god's non-existence would almost serve to perfectly prove his existence. I really don't know.

edit:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_reason

here is an argument from arguably the most quotable human being ever, C.S. Lewis. I believe it's a more eloquent form than my half-formed notion presented above. I also think Hinduism had a pronounced effect on Lewis, as it has a very similar understanding of god.

Requiem
12-15-2012, 11:40 AM
You are something else. Generally I like what you have to write about as far as the Broncos go. But if you really think that our society isn't slowly coming apart? Just wow. This has nothing whatsoever to do with being christian or anything else. wow. It even sounds like you were one of the idiots that voted for pot legalization.

You have my stance all wrong. I think there is a lot wrong in our society. To blame it on a lack of "God" in people's lives is ludicrous, simplistic answer to a very complex problem. I was making remarks towards posters who have pressed in this thread that a lack of Christian principle in our daily lives and furthermore, public education system is causing the degradation of the moral fiber in our society. That is a simply silly. It is also a self-righteous way for them to reinforce their own belief system and elevate themselves above non-believers, when without a doubt, they have plenty of work to do as individuals to become better people. (We all do.)

When I grew up, I was pulled around from church to church. I started out going to Catholic mass when I was just a boy. Most my family had a mass exodus from it in the early 90s and we ended up going to a Missouri Synod (sorry if that isn't the right spelling) Lutheran church that was extremely strict. I didn't like it, refused to join confirmation classes with my school friends and when I was a teenager, we jumped to a Methodist church, which I didn't mind at all -- but I just never really understood why I was drug there all the time against my own will.

I have had many bad experiences with church leaders and organizations who have been extremely judgmental in regards to things regarding my family and me personally. I could never understand how such "good" people could do and say such bad things. It was a major turn off.

Nobody is a perfect person, but I am in firm in my belief that most all Christians today use their faith as a trump/carrying card to profess themselves to be of a higher moral standing than others, when they most certainly are not. They are also doing using their faith as a political tool to try and force feed their systemic beliefs onto other people and the general populous. I think that is very dangerous, especially when we live in a country that embodies a separation from church and state.

Suffice it to say, I have quite a few religious friends, and interestingly enough, they are undoubtedly more judgmental than my non-religious counterparts. It is a true observation that can be demonstrably measured based on the course of events that have taken place in my life. My non-religious friends tend to be more kind, more accepting and apt to free and critical thinking skills.

I saw past the mind control of organized religion years ago and will never go back to it. EVER. And no, I wasn't in WA, CO or OR so I didn't get to vote for pot legalization. I definitely would have if given the chance. There is absolutely not reason for the federal government to be wasting time and resources fighting a plant that has been used by humans cross-culturally for thousands of years.

My 2 cents.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 11:53 AM
It had nothing to do with my post. I was making a legitimate point about a legitimate question. You were insulting my mother. Would you like to meet somewhere and resolve it, or are you a chicken **** little weasel?

Anytime, toughguy.

bpc
12-15-2012, 11:59 AM
Proberbs 22:6:

"Train a child up on the way they should go and when they are old, they will not turn from it."

Demoralizing moral decay and lack of values on many fronts is what is turning these aimless, hopeless, beliefless psychopaths into mass murderers.

Irish Stout
12-15-2012, 12:01 PM
Trying so solve individual violence by requiring people to take part in unified violence?

Firearm safety class does not mean approved firearm use. Lets face it, guns are prevalent in this country and aren't going away. Why not impart knowledge to the masses how to appropriately use them? More k pledge on the subject might make it easier for us to identify problems with individuals and the system.

McDman
12-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Anytime, toughguy.

Fight!

DENVERDUI55
12-15-2012, 12:19 PM
Hunting license yes. Hunters safety class is fantastic. No test to own a gun.

You have to fill out background check.

Requiem
12-15-2012, 12:26 PM
This has nothing to do with religion or guns.

This has to do with an 20 year old autistic male. He had a condition...he was obviously unable to feel anything for another human being, or anyone else. This isn't about a criminal who went out and sought for guns to plan and scheme this operation. This is about a human who is INCAPABLE of feeling for someone else, and thinking like a "normal" person would.

This is about mental health... guns is a cop out. I have no idea what religion is doing in here.

Interesting that you pointed this out. I hadn't heard that he had a condition associated with mental health. Wonder how many pills and psychosomatic drugs they pacified him with in order to change him. In my eyes, that is one of the things that is messed up in our society.

Child a little anxious, rambunctious, etc.? No worries parents, we will give them pill after pill to sedate them!

BroncoDoug
12-15-2012, 12:33 PM
Haven't really read through the thread but there is a special place in hell for the monster that did this. My heart is broken for those kids and family.

Requiem
12-15-2012, 12:38 PM
Haven't really read through the thread but there is a special place in hell for the monster that did this. My heart is broken for those kids and family.

The Cocytus. You must have not read Dante's Inferno.

Pendejo
12-15-2012, 12:41 PM
Anytime, toughguy.

What if he picks a really inconvenient time? Will you counter-offer, or just drop what you're doing and go?

(Edit: You both would have been screwed if he replied with "Right now!". Unless of course you are neighbors. Then the two of you could have received your satisfaction from each other.)

swaiy
12-15-2012, 12:42 PM
Interesting that you pointed this out. I hadn't heard that he had a condition associated with mental health. Wonder how many pills and psychosomatic drugs they pacified him with in order to change him. In my eyes, that is one of the things that is messed up in our society.

Child a little anxious, rambunctious, etc.? No worries parents, we will give them pill after pill to sedate them!

That's a very broad generalization of medication meant to aid mental illness and disorders.

Requiem
12-15-2012, 12:46 PM
That's a very broad generalization of medication meant to aid mental illness and disorders.

Our society is over-medicated, with people being put on mind-altering pills when it really isn't necessary. Not a fan of stuff like that. Do you disagree with the idea that we are over-medicated? A pill for everything! Have six at dinner brah!

lonestar
12-15-2012, 12:53 PM
Using Dead children to attack an opposing posters belief is hypocritical.

He is a punk that has no core values. his one line potshots/attacks on just about anything not juvelinile should tell you just about everything you need to value his commentary.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 12:53 PM
What if he picks a really inconvenient time? Will you counter-offer, or just drop what you're doing and go?

(Edit: You both would have been screwed if he replied with "Right now!". Unless of course you are neighbors. Then the two of you could have received your satisfaction from each other.)

He's in Tulsa. On my way now. Should be there in two hours.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 12:55 PM
Anyway. Anybody who doesn't question the existence of God after an event like this has neither a brain, nor free will.

El Minion
12-15-2012, 12:58 PM
Only simple minded fools would try to link a madman's shooting to the moral decay of society, aka -- an unchristian nation. Take your holier than thou attitude and shove it up your asses and stop trying to justify your belief system because of these tragic events. Using dead children to promote your agenda is ****ing sick.

http://images.wikia.com/xorviel/images/d/d0/Orson_Welles_Citizen_Kane_clapping_.gif

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 01:04 PM
Anyway. Anybody who doesn't question the existence of God after an event like this has neither a brain, nor free will.
Is your concept of God similar to Superman?

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 01:07 PM
Is your concept of God similar to Superman?

The main part I'm having trouble with is the benevolent, loving father part of the god personality. I'm just not seeing much evidence for that lately. Of course, the death of children creates a much stronger, emotional response for me. Especially a death as horrific as this.

g6matty
12-15-2012, 01:09 PM
Yolo

broncocalijohn
12-15-2012, 01:11 PM
Anytime, toughguy.

Did Spider morph into the Doc or is this Spider's Alternate account where he is somewhat normal and smart?

baja
12-15-2012, 01:14 PM
Proberbs 22:6:

"Train a child up on the way they should go and when they are old, they will not turn from it."

Demoralizing moral decay and lack of values on many fronts is what is turning these aimless, hopeless, beliefless psychopaths into mass murderers.

Love is what is missing. ( Love for Self and One [another] ) These current events are a clear sign of the tribulation preceding the death of Duality which is necessary to give way to a New Age of love and understanding of the One (I Am). We are reaping what has been sown and the innocent are not spared. It will get worse before it gets better. It is wise to solace in the eternity of the soul.

This is what is meant by End Times it is not the end of the world but the end of Duality and the cruelty, greed and materialism that it breeds.

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 01:16 PM
The main part I'm having trouble with is the benevolent, loving father part of the god personality. I'm just not seeing much evidence for that lately. Of course, the death of children creates a much stronger, emotional response for me. Especially a death as horrific as this.

Assume for a second that God prevented every tragedy from occurring. How many generations would it take before not one person alive saw any need for a god? Tops 3.

God made people in his image for his glory. God is not made by man for man's glory.

broncocalijohn
12-15-2012, 01:21 PM
Assume for a second that God prevented every tragedy from occurring. How many generations would it take before not one person alive saw any need for a god? Tops 3.

God made people in his image for his glory. God is not made by man for man's glory.

exactly. I amazes me why people say ,"Why would God allow this tragedy to happen?" We are not robots. If you believe in God and follow his way, good things should happen for all. He allows us humans to do what comes from us. Nothing is perfect. We have mental illnesses, desires, lust, etc. Maybe there is a certain episode in life when he will make his presense known and stop a catastrophy. Maybe he already has and we have no way of knowing it.

swaiy
12-15-2012, 01:24 PM
Our society is over-medicated, with people being put on mind-altering pills when it really isn't necessary. Not a fan of stuff like that. Do you disagree with the idea that we are over-medicated? A pill for everything! Have six at dinner brah!

I don't disagree nor do I agree. Your opinion is a ridiculously huge generalization. How do you know it isn't necessary for someone to be on medication? Are you a doctor?

It's the line of thinking that perpetuates some of the stigma behind mental illnesses and disorders.

Old Dude
12-15-2012, 01:33 PM
I know this is an emotional topic, but let's do our best to keep the conversation civil.

Some of the comments, including rep comments, resulting from this thread are already under review. It wouldn't be a good time for anyone to dig a deeper hole.

gunns
12-15-2012, 01:36 PM
Interesting that you pointed this out. I hadn't heard that he had a condition associated with mental health. Wonder how many pills and psychosomatic drugs they pacified him with in order to change him. In my eyes, that is one of the things that is messed up in our society.

Child a little anxious, rambunctious, etc.? No worries parents, we will give them pill after pill to sedate them!

Autism is not a mental illness, it's neurological. Heard that on TV this morning along with parents of autistic kids and a Dr. None of them could believe that Lanza was autistic. I'm not even going to buy into a mental illness as a reason. Along with pills we supply them with mental health excuses for bad behavior. Only the truly retarded are unaware of the result of their actions at times and lack the where with all to plan such an incident.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 01:39 PM
Fixed it for you .... I bet you were a tattle-tail in school.......

Was thinking the same thing.

IMO one of those things better either not said or done in private, reply via rep or PM.
Now it just escalates in the open forum with zero need.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Assume for a second that God prevented every tragedy from occurring. How many generations would it take before not one person alive saw any need for a god? Tops 3.

God made people in his image for his glory. God is not made by man for man's glory.

Well, if that's the case, some of the people are not holding up their end of the bargain, as far as reflecting that "image."

st.bernard
12-15-2012, 01:55 PM
You have my stance all wrong. I think there is a lot wrong in our society. To blame it on a lack of "God" in people's lives is ludicrous, simplistic answer to a very complex problem. I was making remarks towards posters who have pressed in this thread that a lack of Christian principle in our daily lives and furthermore, public education system is causing the degradation of the moral fiber in our society. That is a simply silly. It is also a self-righteous way for them to reinforce their own belief system and elevate themselves above non-believers, when without a doubt, they have plenty of work to do as individuals to become better people. (We all do.)

When I grew up, I was pulled around from church to church. I started out going to Catholic mass when I was just a boy. Most my family had a mass exodus from it in the early 90s and we ended up going to a Missouri Synod (sorry if that isn't the right spelling) Lutheran church that was extremely strict. I didn't like it, refused to join confirmation classes with my school friends and when I was a teenager, we jumped to a Methodist church, which I didn't mind at all -- but I just never really understood why I was drug there all the time against my own will.

I have had many bad experiences with church leaders and organizations who have been extremely judgmental in regards to things regarding my family and me personally. I could never understand how such "good" people could do and say such bad things. It was a major turn off.

Nobody is a perfect person, but I am in firm in my belief that most all Christians today use their faith as a trump/carrying card to profess themselves to be of a higher moral standing than others, when they most certainly are not. They are also doing using their faith as a political tool to try and force feed their systemic beliefs onto other people and the general populous. I think that is very dangerous, especially when we live in a country that embodies a separation from church and state.

Suffice it to say, I have quite a few religious friends, and interestingly enough, they are undoubtedly more judgmental than my non-religious counterparts. It is a true observation that can be demonstrably measured based on the course of events that have taken place in my life. My non-religious friends tend to be more kind, more accepting and apt to free and critical thinking skills.

I saw past the mind control of organized religion years ago and will never go back to it. EVER. And no, I wasn't in WA, CO or OR so I didn't get to vote for pot legalization. I definitely would have if given the chance. There is absolutely not reason for the federal government to be wasting time and resources fighting a plant that has been used by humans cross-culturally for thousands of years.

My 2 cents.

I absolutely commend you for getting out of and staying away from the religious folks. Kudos. Legalizing pot is definately the wrong thing though. Same with someone saying that guns are the problem. I can see that some people think that guns just hop up and shoot people all by themselves. Amazing to me. Personal accountability and no repercussions. Just my opinion.

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 02:01 PM
Crime has done nothing but drop in NYC. I remember hearing a couple years ago that they had the lowest homicides since 1963.

People don't seem to get that there can be gun regulation without gun limitation to law abiding citizens.

The good news is homicide rates are dropping all over not just where guns are banned.

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Interesting that you pointed this out. I hadn't heard that he had a condition associated with mental health. Wonder how many pills and psychosomatic drugs they pacified him with in order to change him. In my eyes, that is one of the things that is messed up in our society.

Child a little anxious, rambunctious, etc.? No worries parents, we will give them pill after pill to sedate them!

Ok Tom Cruise.

Requiem
12-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Autism is not a mental illness, it's neurological. Heard that on TV this morning along with parents of autistic kids and a Dr. None of them could believe that Lanza was autistic. I'm not even going to buy into a mental illness as a reason. Along with pills we supply them with mental health excuses for bad behavior. Only the truly retarded are unaware of the result of their actions at times and lack the where with all to plan such an incident.

That isn't really what I said. :/

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 02:03 PM
The other question this tragedy brings up (again, unfortunately) is how do we protect ourselves from monsters like this without sacrificing some of our freedoms? Frankly, I can't think of a way, especially for a guy like this, or that shooter in Oregon last week, who just goes off out of nowhere without any prior issues or run-ins with the law or mental health. Even with rigid gun control, both of these shooters would have made it through any gun licensing hoops. Keep in mind, one of the most restrictive governments in the world, China, has suffered numerous attacks like this over the last few years. The difference being, they don't have access to guns.

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 02:08 PM
Just ask the people of NY and Chicago how the ban on weapons has affected the crime rate.........

Ok people of Chicago and NY how has the weapons ban affected your crime rate. Hilarious!

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 02:13 PM
Anyway. Anybody who doesn't question the existence of God after an event like this has neither a brain, nor free will.

Wow. What did the church do to you? Did you get alter boyed in the back room by a defrocked priest? You obviously have more against the church then just i don't believe in a god.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 02:21 PM
I don't disagree nor do I agree. Your opinion is a ridiculously huge generalization. How do you know it isn't necessary for someone to be on medication? Are you a doctor?

It's the line of thinking that perpetuates some of the stigma behind mental illnesses and disorders.

Thinking he meant prescribed medications are bad, but booze and weed are good.

Requiem
12-15-2012, 02:26 PM
Thinking he meant prescribed medications are bad, but booze and weed are good.

Think again, retard.

rugbythug
12-15-2012, 04:03 PM
Well, if that's the case, some of the people are not holding up their end of the bargain, as far as reflecting that "image."

Very true

Action
12-15-2012, 04:12 PM
sure, but plenty of autistic people never develop an urge to go shoot-up an elementary school. what else is at play?

Well, we will never know since the mom and guy is dead. With his type of condition, the mom could have easily said, "I need to go to work, it's more important" and in his head he could have heard "The elementary school is more important than me." And he could have just ran with that. This is just an example, not a speculation... what it really boils down to the responsibility of the parent.

But it's difficult to blame this single parent because there are so many irresponsible parents across the nation, or even world. It's not something that you can easily just say parents need to be more responsible...this isn't the case here either.

I don't know what the solution could be, I'm not in politics or a specialist in this field. I do know this is a case of mental illness, not a case of criminal use of guns.

Finger Roll
12-15-2012, 04:15 PM
My Newtown CT family is a mess right now. Three of my cousins ages 20-22 went to High school with him and knew Adam Lanza.

Action
12-15-2012, 04:20 PM
Autism is not a mental illness, it's neurological. Heard that on TV this morning along with parents of autistic kids and a Dr. None of them could believe that Lanza was autistic. I'm not even going to buy into a mental illness as a reason. Along with pills we supply them with mental health excuses for bad behavior. Only the truly retarded are unaware of the result of their actions at times and lack the where with all to plan such an incident.

... you seem like you're very uninformed. Saying autism isn't a mental illness is actually medically correct, however, it's really gives people the same picture of the situation because how uninformed society is.

To make it simple:

Austism is something kids are BORN with...a disorder.

Mental illness is something people DEVELOP.

In this case, he was AUTISTIC. He can't be given a pill to treat his situation. If you do research in aspergers and some others, you will find that people with these conditions cannot feel for other people, they can only feel for themselves. Literally, if they see someone in pain, they can't feel anything for that person. They CAN'T, not that they don't WANT.

Like I said, anything else is a cop out... and individual that is aware on mental health would understand what this situation is about.

Action
12-15-2012, 04:27 PM
Interesting that you pointed this out. I hadn't heard that he had a condition associated with mental health. Wonder how many pills and psychosomatic drugs they pacified him with in order to change him. In my eyes, that is one of the things that is messed up in our society.

Child a little anxious, rambunctious, etc.? No worries parents, we will give them pill after pill to sedate them!

I think at this point there are numerous reports that he had a condition. People describing him in class and the neighbors descriptions were already enough.

It's not something with pills... pills are given to people who can't function without disrupting everyone else or whom have trouble getting through their own day for whatever reason on a daily basis.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 04:43 PM
Anyway. Anybody who doesn't question the existence of God after an event like this has neither a brain, nor free will.

okay? I think we're well past impulsive questioning of god. or I thought we were. I do it everyday. it's a running joke between my brother and I to declare "god is dead" every time some mishap happens.

traffic on the interstate? "god is dead"

some dude orders extra sour cream (the devil's milk) on his burrito? "god is dead"

Willis McGahee fumble? "god is dead"

you get the idea. it's basically ridiculing people who blame god or a
think crappy circumstances in the world prove his nonexistence. the circumstances lose the weight of their crappiness once god is ruled out of the picture, because nothing matters otherwise. I don't know if anything matters, so that's why I don't know if there is a god. I do know that if things do matter, there has to be. it's illogical to think you give meaning to your own existence. a nice little warm feeling perhaps, but illogical nonetheless.

McDman
12-15-2012, 04:44 PM
Ok people of Chicago and NY how has the weapons ban affected your crime rate. Hilarious!

I think they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. NY is at a low they haven't seen since the 60s and Chicago is still extremely high.

Action
12-15-2012, 04:51 PM
Anybody who doesn't question the existence of God after an event like this has neither a brain, nor free will.

So this is what sets people off to question God... not slavery or the Holocaust or all the things that have happened in history... or even history itself.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 04:52 PM
310 million people in the US. 200 million guns. sheer lunacy to think we're gonna vet everyone's mental framework and give them the good doctor's stamp of sanity.

protect yourself and your loved ones! also, if your kid is obviously ****ed up like this Adam cat seemed to be, take some goddamn action!

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 04:54 PM
okay? I think we're well past impulsive questioning of god. or I thought we were. I do it everyday. it's a running joke between my brother and I to declare "god is dead" every time some mishap happens.

traffic on the interstate? "god is dead"

some dude orders extra sour cream (the devil's milk) on his burrito? "god is dead"

Willis McGahee fumble? "god is dead"

you get the idea. it's basically ridiculing people who blame god or a
think crappy circumstances in the world prove his nonexistence. the circumstances lose the weight of their crappiness once god is ruled out of the picture, because nothing matters otherwise. I don't know if anything matters, so that's why I don't know if there is a god. I do know that if things do matter, there has to be. it's illogical to think you give meaning to your own existence. a nice little warm feeling perhaps, but illogical nonetheless.

I wouldn't put what happened at that school in the same sphere as a traffic jam or burrito toppings. Human beings create meaning. It's what they do.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 05:08 PM
I wouldn't put what happened at that school in the same sphere as a traffic jam or burrito toppings. Human beings create meaning. It's what they do.

sure, but the argument applies there more than ever. if those children (still tough to type) mean anything more than random conglomerations of gristle and bone, there has to be a god. their meaning must be a priori to their physical manifestation. a material view of the cosmos would logically ascribe the same meaning to them as it does to a wave crashing on a shore or a breeze through the trees, and there is nothing tragic about either of those things. I bet Adam Lanza saw them in the same light, and it might be his view of god in the cosmos that ultimately led him...to...do this.

if your criteria for meaning is "human beings create it," then basically every fit of passion or ill-informed pipe-dream is valid, including a blind belief in god.

broncosteven
12-15-2012, 05:10 PM
[QUOTE=Kid A;3753284]I totally agree on the importance of strengthening the family unit and everything you said. I just don't agree with cutthemdown that "getting God back in schools" is the solution to such a deep problem; that seems like a simplistic, politically convenient stance to take when so much evidence points to the issues arising from broken homes.


I think many of the statements here today are over simplistic such as "Get a God back in school", this is a religion problem, this is just an American problem and Europe has it better, and crime rates saying we're just like the fifties. It's world wide, for every religious variable there exists a counter secular issue, and crime rates are highly political and manipulated so who knows what is true.

What I do know is there a lot of lost, isolated, scared, and scarred people out there. Religious freaks and secular sickos. You want good kids and citizens be a good parent and citizen yourself. Take care of your kids. Stay with your wives and visa versa. Have sit down dinners and asked your kids how they are doing. Ask the neighborhood kids how they are doing. let them know Being kind is cool. Say hi to your neighbors and strangers. Volunteer at your local schools. Read a book to some students. Fellas, how about joining Watch D.O.G.S. and if your kids school doesn't have it, bring it to the principal attention. Google it. It's a program that promotes dads, granddad, and other male figures involvement in schools, and school safety. You guys are mad, then lets do something. How about mentoring in schools. Our choice if we go to church or not, where we live, if we believe in gun rights, whatever, but its also our choice how we take care of kids and our neighbors. Get mad and do something about this crap.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. We need friends, family's and to be involved in our communities if we want real change.

That means volunteering, and being role models to not only our kids but others as well.

My 10 year old daughter volunteers already, I am on the board of the friends of our local library and an historical site in the area. We sit down to dinner EVERY night and we have blocks of time with no TV on (hard with a 5 and 10 year old). It doesn't mean my kids are perfect but they have a better shot at being more successful or adjusted than most.

I read an article in Time recently that suggested there either be a Mandatory enlistment for an armed force or Mandatory National Service requirement after High School (or age requirement). People would be taught disipline and perform service for others. Kids who didn't learn how to be successful in the home would get it in an enviroment where they help other people and their community.

It feels good to be involved in the community and help others. Try it people.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 05:24 PM
[QUOTE=tesnyde;3753303]

I agree 100% with what you are saying. We need friends, family's and to be involved in our communities if we want real change.

That means volunteering, and being role models to not only our kids but others as well.

My 10 year old daughter volunteers already, I am on the board of the friends of our local library and an historical site in the area. We sit down to dinner EVERY night and we have blocks of time with no TV on (hard with a 5 and 10 year old). It doesn't mean my kids are perfect but they have a better shot at being more successful or adjusted than most.

I read an article in Time recently that suggested there either be a Mandatory enlistment for an armed force or Mandatory National Service requirement after High School (or age requirement). People would be taught disipline and perform service for others. Kids who didn't learn how to be successful in the home would get it in an enviroment where they help other people and their community.

It feels good to be involved in the community and help others. Try it people.

good post.

gunns
12-15-2012, 05:29 PM
... you seem like you're very uninformed. Saying autism isn't a mental illness is actually medically correct, however, it's really gives people the same picture of the situation because how uninformed society is.

To make it simple:

Austism is something kids are BORN with...a disorder.

Mental illness is something people DEVELOP.

In this case, he was AUTISTIC. He can't be given a pill to treat his situation. If you do research in aspergers and some others, you will find that people with these conditions cannot feel for other people, they can only feel for themselves. Literally, if they see someone in pain, they can't feel anything for that person. They CAN'T, not that they don't WANT.

Like I said, anything else is a cop out... and individual that is aware on mental health would understand what this situation is about.

Really? I didn't know you knew him. The reports I'm hearing is that there is no confirmation that he was autistic. I know about autism and the way the children are. It's rare you can give them a hug, or get in their world. I was not associating them to my feelings on mental health at all. I said I was watching a Dr and families with autistic kids and they said they find it hard to believe he was autistic and took this action. Obviously it's rare.

Irish Stout
12-15-2012, 05:43 PM
You have to fill out background check.

That isn't a test. Its one step, but that doesn't give any indication that the individual purchasing the gun knows how to use it safely, store it safely, or will be a responsible gun owner.

Action
12-15-2012, 05:47 PM
Really? I didn't know you knew him. The reports I'm hearing is that there is no confirmation that he was autistic. I know about autism and the way the children are. It's rare you can give them a hug, or get in their world. I was not associating them to my feelings on mental health at all. I said I was watching a Dr and families with autistic kids and they said they find it hard to believe he was autistic and took this action. Obviously it's rare.

All reports say they believe he had a personality disorder/autism. The neighbors also said this.

You cannot be 20 years old and not have a disorder to go and shoot up kids without feeling a damn thing, there is NO POINT. What would one who could feel GAIN for shooting up kids? This is different from school shootings that involve bullying.

And no, just because a kid is autistic doesn't mean you can't hug them or get in their world. There are different spectrums of autisms. There is a SCALE. This is what I'm talking about, just because I put in the word autistic you automatically have a vision of a stereotype. It doesn't function like this.

This is like you saying I know about black people...they're usually athletes and very fast. That's literally what you just said about autism.

Now tell me, do you think society is informed enough about mental conditions?

Families with autistic kids isn't deep enough, some kids might have an autistic kid who can't function. (higher end of the scale). Their child would be irrelevant here since it's not the same condition.

I'm sure the Dr.'s would obviously be surprised it went to this extent, but there are autistic kids who resort to violence once things don't go their way. That's just the seed. I didn't see these doctors, but depending on their specialty and experience, that would play a role too.

You combine this with whatever life this kid has had, what he's been exposed to, and how he thinks about it + having the access of guns/irresponsible mom then you have a situation.

Yes this is a rare case... no one shoots up a school full of kids.

According to reports, they have found what they believe is motive... so that will be interesting.

baja
12-15-2012, 05:51 PM
All reports say they believe he had a personality disorder/autism. The neighbors also said this.

You cannot be 20 years old and not have a disorder to go and shoot up kids without feeling a damn thing, there is NO POINT. What would one who could feel GAIN for shooting up kids? This is different from school shootings that involve bullying.

And no, just because a kid is autistic doesn't mean you can't hug them or get in their world. There are different spectrums of autisms. There is a SCALE. This is what I'm talking about, just because I put in the word autistic you automatically have a vision of a stereotype. It doesn't function like this.

This is like you saying I know about black people...they're usually athletes and very fast. That's literally what you just said about autism.

Now tell me, do you think society is informed enough about mental conditions?

Families with autistic kids isn't deep enough, some kids might have an autistic kid who can't function. (higher end of the scale). Their child would be irrelevant here since it's not the same condition.

I'm sure the Dr.'s would obviously be surprised it went to this extent, but there are autistic kids who resort to violence once things don't go their way. That's just the seed.

You combine this with whatever life this kid has had, what he's been exposed to, and how he thinks about it + having the access of guns/irresponsible mom then you have a situation.

Yes this is a rare case... no one shoots up a school full of kids.

According to reports, they have found what they believe is motive... so that will be interesting.

One question. If what you say is true (no feelings) why did you he kill himself?

Action
12-15-2012, 05:57 PM
One question. If what you say is true (no feelings) why did you he kill himself?

I have no idea, I'm not a specialist nor do I know the details of motive and his true symptoms.

I do know that there are so many forms of autisms that there is a bunch of money in the field, it's just not something that's in public like black people and guns.

I mean, he could have easily got pissed of and said, I'm going to kill all these kids then kill myself because I hate my life and I want to kill these kids because they caused me pain.

Just too many variables... hopefully the details of motive comes out soon.

EDIT
When I say some have no feelings, it means they have no feelings for OTHER people, but they have feelings for themselves.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=tesnyde;3753303]

I agree 100% with what you are saying. We need friends, family's and to be involved in our communities if we want real change.

That means volunteering, and being role models to not only our kids but others as well.

My 10 year old daughter volunteers already, I am on the board of the friends of our local library and an historical site in the area. We sit down to dinner EVERY night and we have blocks of time with no TV on (hard with a 5 and 10 year old). It doesn't mean my kids are perfect but they have a better shot at being more successful or adjusted than most.

I read an article in Time recently that suggested there either be a Mandatory enlistment for an armed force or Mandatory National Service requirement after High School (or age requirement). People would be taught disipline and perform service for others. Kids who didn't learn how to be successful in the home would get it in an enviroment where they help other people and their community.

It feels good to be involved in the community and help others. Try it people.


Glad to know at least one family is functional in the USA.. Only wished that more would be..

as for the time article i did not see it but after my time in the military I have thought the same thing for decades..

Instead of allowing kiddies to go to college right away for many they are not mentally ready to be on their own.. let them serve in the military, job corps as care takers for the elderly or in day cares.. but mainly the former two make them go to a boot camp type function to learn how to do things for themselves, giving back to the country in some manner..

when they are done with their service we pay for matching years of college in a state school or a trade school of some sort..

IMO they will be better motivated to actually learn something in school as well as more mature.. This gives us some service back to the US and just maybe makes them into a real person..


for those not going on to school just perhaps they may figure out this is better than flipping burgers or selling drugs..

Action
12-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Pakistan

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/481465_10151368520870329_394207935_n.jpg

The Joker
12-15-2012, 06:06 PM
So looks like the Westboro Baptist Church are going to picket the funerals.

That'll go well.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 06:09 PM
the problem is when "autism" becomes so comprehensive that the term becomes essentially devoid of meaning. we all probably demonstrate some tendency that could be described as autistic, so I dunno if keying in on that would really solve anything.

sounds like he took his parents' divorce pretty hard.

Action
12-15-2012, 06:13 PM
the problem is when "autism" becomes so comprehensive that the term becomes essentially devoid of meaning. we all probably demonstrate some tendency that could be described as autistic, so I dunno if keying in on that would really solve anything.

sounds like he took his parents' divorce pretty hard.

That's if you're talking about minor situations. He obviously had a DISORDER, not just an autistic tick.

This isn't a minor situation.... there was obviously something wrong with him. His brother hadn't seem him for 2+ years? His dad doesn't see him?

Blighty
12-15-2012, 06:15 PM
Why do people even want guns?

gunns
12-15-2012, 06:16 PM
All reports say they believe he had a personality disorder/autism. The neighbors also said this.

You cannot be 20 years old and not have a disorder to go and shoot up kids without feeling a damn thing, there is NO POINT. What would one who could feel GAIN for shooting up kids? This is different from school shootings that involve bullying.

And no, just because a kid is autistic doesn't mean you can't hug them or get in their world. There are different spectrums of autisms. There is a SCALE. This is what I'm talking about, just because I put in the word autistic you automatically have a vision of a stereotype. It doesn't function like this.

This is like you saying I know about black people...they're usually athletes and very fast. That's literally what you just said about autism.

Now tell me, do you think society is informed enough about mental conditions?

Families with autistic kids isn't deep enough, some kids might have an autistic kid who can't function. (higher end of the scale). Their child would be irrelevant here since it's not the same condition.

I'm sure the Dr.'s would obviously be surprised it went to this extent, but there are autistic kids who resort to violence once things don't go their way. That's just the seed. I didn't see these doctors, but depending on their specialty and experience, that would play a role too.

You combine this with whatever life this kid has had, what he's been exposed to, and how he thinks about it + having the access of guns/irresponsible mom then you have a situation.

Yes this is a rare case... no one shoots up a school full of kids.

According to reports, they have found what they believe is motive... so that will be interesting.

A personality disorder is a mental illness. Autism is not. That's what you did not comprehend in my initial post. I was dogging on the mental illness, not the autism. Why is it when a Muslim kills someone they are a terrorist, when a black or hispanic kills someone they are a gang member but when a white kills they had psychological problems. What I said in my initial post is this mental illness labeling has given these assholes an excuse for bad behavior. They are aware of what they are doing and it's a choice.

Yes, I agree, anyone who does something like this is insane. Anyone. But there are many different interpretations of insane.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 06:23 PM
Why do people even want guns?

many reasons..

for some it is a hobby,
for others it is a vocation, still others use them for hunting food.

for myself to kill the no good clown trying to rob/kill me with the gun/knife/machette they have..

errand
12-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Why do people even want guns?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VYSBEKe4mTk?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have no idea why anyone would want to own a gun.....(sarcasm)

Blighty
12-15-2012, 06:36 PM
many reasons..

for some it is a hobby,
for others it is a vocation, still others use them for hunting food.

for myself to kill the no good clown trying to rob/kill me with the gun/knife/machette they have..

I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

st.bernard
12-15-2012, 06:40 PM
many reasons..

for some it is a hobby,
for others it is a vocation, still others use them for hunting food.

for myself to kill the no good clown trying to rob/kill me with the gun/knife/machette they have..

good answer.
thomas jefferson..no guns, you get to plow for those that have 'em. (paraphrased that)
and just my .02 pennies....why should my govt fear guns in the hands of it's citizens? the answer to that is scary. It is becoming painfully obvious that people don't secure their weapons and others get ahold of them. Trigger Locks, safes...etc

lonestar
12-15-2012, 06:44 PM
I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

Most farmers do not shot corn, or potatoes.

As for checking guns in and out of the copper shop. No way I allow anyone to handle my gun, rifle or weapon but family.

Most hunters are not out for fun they keep and eat their kill.

I realize that you are shown in England and had we had your views on firearms perhaps we would still be a colony.

Most Americans believe that owning a firearms is a right and responsiblity that is a core belief, a right given us by our constitution.

A concept a Limey would never get.

errand
12-15-2012, 06:45 PM
Why do people even want guns?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sNf8v4m5Vdg?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Of course this kind of **** never makes the national headlines....now if this old man had accidently shot a neighbor? Then it would be all over the news....

lonestar
12-15-2012, 06:48 PM
good answer.
thomas jefferson..no guns, you get to plow for those that have 'em. (paraphrased that)
and just my .02 pennies....why should my govt fear guns in the hands of it's citizens? the answer to that is scary. It is becoming painfully obvious that people don't secure their weapons and others get ahold of them. Trigger Locks, safes...etc

Actually I believe that the only reason the government has not done more to infringe rights of its citizens are all of us that own guns.

BTW blighty the average response time for a home invasion for a 911 call to the police is 27 minutes. The response time from my Glock is slightly more than the speed light.

errand
12-15-2012, 06:49 PM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GGOmtyTJ2f0?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

errand
12-15-2012, 06:54 PM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/V9lpJM6GriI?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

After he was robbed, he started carrying his 9mm...and like he says, he isn't looking for trouble...but he is ready in case it comes looking for him. Hopefully this is enough testimony for blighty as to why most people (other than criminals) own guns

Blighty
12-15-2012, 06:57 PM
Most farmers do not shot corn, or potatoes.

As for checking guns in and out of the copper shop. No way I allow anyone to handle my gun, rifle or weapon but family.

Most hunters are not out for fun they keep and eat their kill.

I realize that you are shown in England and had we had your views on firearms perhaps we would still be a colony.

Most Americans believe that owning a firearms is a right and responsiblity that is a core belief, a right given us by our constitution.

A concept a Limey would never get.

I'm sure most farmers wouldn't want their livestock to be picked off by foxes. Why would you be so against someone handling your gun?

Sure it's very difficult/near impossible to stop nutjobs and people with mental disorders, but why wouldn't people want a level of gun control that is similar to that in the UK or around Europe? If the US adopted similar measures then it could save thousands of lives. What's so bad about that.

I really don't understand the machismo that surrounds guns. It has one purpose and that's to kill.

Also, I saw your comments about video games. You do realise that the video games you play, the music you listen to and the movies you watch aren't exclusive to America?

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 07:00 PM
I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

Americans are culturally different than Europeans, and that extends to our attitude towards government. We became a country through drastically different means than cheery ole Albion, and the concepts of self-determination and negative liberty play a large role in our gun laws. The individual conscience is not trifled with, and you can see that borne out in our speech laws as well as our gun laws. We don't ban 'hate speech' like some European countries do, for instance, and we think people have a right to rely on themselves for protection.

Gun control also has a racist background, so it's interesting you equated slavery with possession of a firearm.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=5122

I quote the eminent Ice-T:

"I’ll give up my gun when everybody else does…if there were guns here, would you want to be the only one without one?...It’s legal in the United States. The right to bear arms is because that’s the last form of defense against tyranny, not to hunt. It’s to protect yourself from the police.”

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 07:01 PM
I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

Not quite as archaic as "English tyranny" though. Thanks guns. Suck it, Brits.

Rohirrim
12-15-2012, 07:01 PM
Why do people even want guns?

Because we are an extremely paranoid culture.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 07:01 PM
After he was robbed, he started carrying his 9mm...and like he says, he isn't looking for trouble...but he is ready in case it comes looking for him. Hopefully this is enough testimony for blighty as to why most people (other than criminals) own guns

A story about pulling a gun out on someone who had a gun out.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 07:03 PM
I'm sure most farmers wouldn't want their livestock to be picked off by foxes. Why would you be so against someone handling your gun?

Sure it's very difficult/near impossible to stop nutjobs and people with mental disorders, but why wouldn't people want a level of gun control that is similar to that in the UK or around Europe? If the US adopted similar measures then it could save thousands of lives. What's so bad about that.

I really don't understand the machismo that surrounds guns. It has one purpose and that's to kill.

Also, I saw your comments about video games. You do realise that the video games you play, the music you listen to and the movies you watch aren't exclusive to America?

A rule of thumb in the US farmers till the earth, raise crops. Occasionally raise chickens and pigs.

Ranchers raise livestock, pigs, cows horses.

The firearms real purpose is to defend property. Or to take property (wars). The sport part is just to get better at the former.

st.bernard
12-15-2012, 07:11 PM
Actually I believe that the only reason the government has not done more to infringe rights of its citizens are all of us that own guns.

BTW blighty the average response time for a home invasion for a 911 call to the police is 27 minutes. The response time from my Glock is slightly more than the speed light.

:strong:

I sleep with Mr Casul....comforting....my family is safe and will remain so. 911 is too far away. And yes, I do have a safe where everything is kept except for Big Nasty...lol.....never leave home without it.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 07:20 PM
Americans are culturally different than Europeans, and that extends to our attitude towards government. We became a country through drastically different means than cheery ole Albion, and the concepts of self-determination and negative liberty play a large role in our gun laws. The individual conscience is not trifled with, and you can see that borne out in our speech laws as well as our gun laws. We don't ban 'hate speech' like some European countries do, for instance, and we think people have a right to rely on themselves for protection.

Gun control also has a racist background, so it's interesting you equated slavery with possession of a firearm.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=5122

I quote the eminent Ice-T:

"I’ll give up my gun when everybody else does…if there were guns here, would you want to be the only one without one?...It’s legal in the United States. The right to bear arms is because that’s the last form of defense against tyranny, not to hunt. It’s to protect yourself from the police.”

The first part of Ice-T's quote is hard to fault. Cleaning up guns in America would be an impossible task. We have problems in the UK with knife crime, albeit not on the same scale of gun crime and sure there is gun crime here too.

Maybe it's time for politics and conscience to move on. It's 2012.


Out of interest, those who have firearms, what are you 'packing'? handguns, rifles, shotguns?

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 07:30 PM
Interesting how they were all over the high powered rifle, that he didn't even use? Sounds like he used handguns. So all this talk over a high powered assault weapons ban wouldnt even touch this incident.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 07:32 PM
The first part of Ice-T's quote is hard to fault. Cleaning up guns in America would be an impossible task. We have problems in the UK with knife crime, albeit not on the same scale of gun crime and sure there is gun crime here too.

Maybe it's time for politics and conscience to move on. It's 2012.


Out of interest, those who have firearms, what are you 'packing'? handguns, rifles, shotguns?

lulz, I disagree there. the primacy of the individual conscience is as close as you can come to everlasting truth for me, and "moving on" from that is a profound regression. it's also how terrible **** happens. there's a reason the Swiss mandate gun ownership.

I personally don't own a gun, but I plan on doing so someday when I have a family. I live in Texas and people generally assume I have one anyway.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 07:36 PM
The first part of Ice-T's quote is hard to fault. Cleaning up guns in America would be an impossible task. We have problems in the UK with knife crime, albeit not on the same scale of gun crime and sure there is gun crime here too.

Maybe it's time for politics and conscience to move on. It's 2012.


Out of interest, those who have firearms, what are you 'packing'? handguns, rifles, shotguns?

Yes. And muzzle loaders. And high tech archery.

KO5K
12-15-2012, 07:57 PM
Suck it, Brits.

The Brits aren't reflecting on another school shooting and mourning the death of 20 kids, I'm sure they're perfectly content.

Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion.

It's too late to ban guns, there are too many in circulation.

broncocalijohn
12-15-2012, 07:57 PM
I'm sure most farmers wouldn't want their livestock to be picked off by foxes. Why would you be so against someone handling your gun?

Sure it's very difficult/near impossible to stop nutjobs and people with mental disorders, but why wouldn't people want a level of gun control that is similar to that in the UK or around Europe? If the US adopted similar measures then it could save thousands of lives. What's so bad about that.

I really don't understand the machismo that surrounds guns. It has one purpose and that's to kill.

Also, I saw your comments about video games. You do realise that the video games you play, the music you listen to and the movies you watch aren't exclusive to America?

That is a very good posts blighty. I think the guns at the police station is a great idea. In fact, once the criminals find out they need to leave their guns at the police station, they won't be able to rob you. I mean every criminal is a law abiding citizen and will do what the law says. No fear of protection. Police are there for you at every turn and now criminals don't have guns with their law abiding change in their criminal policy.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 08:08 PM
lulz, I disagree there. the primacy of the individual conscience is as close as you can come to everlasting truth for me, and "moving on" from that is a profound regression. it's also how terrible **** happens. there's a reason the Swiss mandate gun ownership.

I personally don't own a gun, but I plan on doing so someday when I have a family. I live in Texas and people generally assume I have one anyway.

I agree, individuality and our freedom to define norms is perfectly fine (within limits of course). I'm not calling for a big brother state. I really don't see what's so crazy about wanting to eradicate guns and gun ownership.

http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerlands-gun-laws-are-a-red-herring-2012-12

Dr Broncenstein: I can understand the stance that people have about protecting themselves, but why do you have so many? I'd fancy myself more with a single gun than coming out duel-wielding rifles.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 08:12 PM
That is a very good posts blighty. I think the guns at the police station is a great idea. In fact, once the criminals find out they need to leave their guns at the police station, they won't be able to rob you. I mean every criminal is a law abiding citizen and will do what the law says. No fear of protection. Police are there for you at every turn and now criminals don't have guns with their law abiding change in their criminal policy.

I'm talking about non-handguns. Rifles, shotguns, whatever, for people who have them for 'sport'.

tesnyde
12-15-2012, 08:12 PM
Why do people even want guns?

So that tyrant kings don't screw with us, it's my right, and an armed society is a polite society.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 08:19 PM
So that tyrant kings don't screw with us, it's my right, and an armed society is a polite society.

Yeah mate, I'd watch out if I was you. Rumour here is that ol' Queeny is launching a surprise armada any minute now.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 08:21 PM
I agree, individuality and our freedom to define norms is perfectly fine (within limits of course). I'm not calling for a big brother state. I really don't see what's so crazy about wanting to eradicate guns and gun ownership.

http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerlands-gun-laws-are-a-red-herring-2012-12

Dr Broncenstein: I can understand the stance that people have about protecting themselves, but why do you have so many? I'd fancy myself more with a single gun than coming out duel-wielding rifles.

Because I can. I have a rifle collection spanning .22 to .338 win mag. Each has their purpose, depending on what I intend to shoot. A rifle in general wouldnt be my first choice for defence, but certainly would suffice. My 12ga pump shotgun is for defense of my family and home.

KO5K
12-15-2012, 08:26 PM
So that tyrant kings don't screw with us, it's my right, and an armed society is a polite society.

Well of course.

lonestar
12-15-2012, 08:28 PM
The first part of Ice-T's quote is hard to fault. Cleaning up guns in America would be an impossible task. We have problems in the UK with knife crime, albeit not on the same scale of gun crime and sure there is gun crime here too.

Maybe it's time for politics and conscience to move on. It's 2012.


Out of interest, those who have firearms, what are you 'packing'? handguns, rifles, shotguns?

Aye!

lonestar
12-15-2012, 08:31 PM
lulz, I disagree there. the primacy of the individual conscience is as close as you can come to everlasting truth for me, and "moving on" from that is a profound regression. it's also how terrible **** happens. there's a reason the Swiss mandate gun ownership.

I personally don't own a gun, but I plan on doing so someday when I have a family. I live in Texas and people generally assume I have one anyway.

A wise assumption.

Unlike the wimps in Colorado.



Jk

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 08:33 PM
I agree, individuality and our freedom to define norms is perfectly fine (within limits of course). I'm not calling for a big brother state. I really don't see what's so crazy about wanting to eradicate guns and gun ownership.

http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerlands-gun-laws-are-a-red-herring-2012-12

Dr Broncenstein: I can understand the stance that people have about protecting themselves, but why do you have so many? I'd fancy myself more with a single gun than coming out duel-wielding rifles.

don't really see how that's a red herring in the least. basically the article recapitulates my point about Swiss gun ownership and then speculates about how it might change. I actually quite agree with a point brought up earlier in this thread about mandatory conscription in the military for a short time, if only to learn about how to handle and maintain a weapon. I also think society could benefit from GTFOff facebook and instagram for awhile and maybe (temporarily) getting bossed around a bit. whatever, that's the Swiss's prerogative, but I'd personally be wary. human beings don't change, and we're only a few decades removed from one of the darkest periods in human history. a hop, skip, and jump away geographically, too.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 08:47 PM
don't really see how that's a red herring in the least. basically the article recapitulates my point about Swiss gun ownership and then speculates about how it might change. I actually quite agree with a point brought up earlier in this thread about mandatory conscription in the military for a short time, if only to learn about how to handle and maintain a weapon. I also think society could benefit from GTFOff facebook and instagram for awhile and maybe (temporarily) getting bossed around a bit. whatever, that's the Swiss's prerogative, but I'd personally be wary. human beings don't change, and we're only a few decades removed from one of the darkest periods in human history. a hop, skip, and jump away geographically, too.

The redeeming feature about military service is that it can teach people discipline, not about handling and maintaining weapons. I like the idea of people being able to take away what they've learnt and applying it to their life. Valuable life skills although it would be better if other avenues could be explored which weren't focused around promoting the use of the military.

I disagree. Humans do change although we'll always have the same animal instincts.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 08:47 PM
I've been humming "This is England" for the last hour meow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROj_1R36lX0&sns=em

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 08:51 PM
The redeeming feature about military service is that it can teach people discipline, not about handling and maintaining weapons. I like the idea of people being able to take away what they've learnt and applying it to their life. Valuable life skills although it would be better if other avenues could be explored which weren't focused around promoting the use of the military.

I disagree. Humans do change although we'll always have the same animal instincts.

Individual human beings change, but that's the point of life. The human race itself does no such thing, and methinks it's dangerous to assume so.

And I agree, military people are consistently amongst the highest quality I come across in society.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 09:03 PM
The Brits aren't reflecting on another school shooting and mourning the death of 20 kids, I'm sure they're perfectly content.

It's too late to ban guns, there are too many in circulation.

Content? Definitely not. Understandably people aren't as affected as they were with Dunblane and Hungerford, but people here are following what's happened at Sandy Hook quite closely and no doubt people will care a lot more tomorrow as one of the victims was British (breaking news here as of 5 minutes ago).

The British public aren't oblivious to what goes on everyday in America, we do hear about your news and we are sadden. Regardless of what country it happened in, it's sad and ultimately a lot sadder as we know it's going to happen again and again yet nothing will happen due to despicable policies.

I don't want you all to think I'm attacking you for being Americans and what goes on in your country. I'm a person who just so happened to be born in London.

bpc
12-15-2012, 09:09 PM
The hypocrisy of liberals:

If you legalize drugs, drug related crime will go away.

If you criminalize guns, violent gun crimes will go away.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 09:14 PM
Content? Definitely not. Understandably people aren't as affected as they were with Dunblane and Hungerford, but people here are following what's happened at Sandy Hook quite closely and no doubt people will care a lot more tomorrow as one of the victims was British (breaking news here as of 5 minutes ago).

The British public aren't oblivious to what goes on everyday in America, we do hear about your news and we are sadden. Regardless of what country it happened in, it's sad and ultimately a lot sadder as we know it's going to happen again and again yet nothing will happen due to despicable policies.

I don't want you all to think I'm attacking you for being Americans and what goes on in your country. I'm a person who just so happened to be born in London.

They only seem despicable because people aren't informed and are subject to emotional decisions on something requiring extensive study and reasoning. I understand the simple impulse of "someone shot people so let's ban guns," but the theory of gun control and data backing up said theory isn't convincing.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I understand the feeling, I do. It makes me sick to my core what happened yesterday, and if I believed banning guns would prevent those types of things from ever happening again, I would be all for it (constitutional liberties aside). But I don't think banning guns will do anything except exacerbate the problem. Society's ills have been misdiagnosed, and the cheap treatment of gun control that might make us feel better in the short-term only lets us get sicker.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 09:16 PM
Individual human beings change, but that's the point of life. The human race itself does no such thing, and methinks it's dangerous to assume so.

And I agree, military people are consistently amongst the highest quality I come across in society.

I don't think it's dangerous to assume or contemplate the human race or sects of it changing it's collective conscience over time. Maybe it's just wishful thinking!

Btw cheers. I had a pretty annoying song stuck in my head and the Clash has helped get rid.

Pony Boy
12-15-2012, 09:22 PM
I can accept if farmers need them, but why can't hunters have their guns at the local police station, for the guns to be checked in and out? There's absolutely no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle, absolutely no reason whatsoever. If people enjoy it as a hobby then maybe they should join or start a clay pigeon shooting group instead of slaughtering animals 'for fun'.Considering you can't ban people, guns is the obvious suggestion. 'Right to own a firearm', sounds as prehistoric as 'right to own a slave'.

Where did you come up with the term "slaughtering animals for fun"?

You do you realize that there are healthy herds of deer and elk in Colorado and Montana because of strictly regulated hunting seasons. They will often extend a season if there are not enough animals taken in some areas?

baja
12-15-2012, 09:25 PM
Thread title should be changed, 26 died not 27.

Blighty
12-15-2012, 09:29 PM
They only seem despicable because people aren't informed and are subject to emotional decisions on something requiring extensive study and reasoning. I understand the simple impulse of "someone shot people so let's ban guns," but the theory of gun control and data backing up said theory isn't convincing.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I understand the feeling, I do. It makes me sick to my core what happened yesterday, and if I believed banning guns would prevent those types of things from ever happening again, I would be all for it (constitutional liberties aside). But I don't think banning guns will do anything except exacerbate the problem. Society's ills have been misdiagnosed, and the cheap treatment of gun control that might make us feel better in the short-term only lets us get sicker.

Looks interesting, will give it a read sometime tomorrow as it's 4.30am here and I can barely read two sentences. I know that no one wants gun crime or events like yesterday to happen, but it'd be tragic if people admitted defeat to it and accepted the problem as being a norm.

I'm off to bed.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 09:33 PM
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

holy ****

Blighty
12-15-2012, 09:34 PM
Where did you come up with the term "slaughtering animals for fun"?

You do you realize that there are healthy herds of deer and elk in Colorado and Montana because of strictly regulated hunting seasons. They will often extend a season if there are not enough animals taken in some areas?

Yes.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 09:36 PM
Looks interesting, will give it a read sometime tomorrow as it's 4.30am here and I can barely read two sentences. I know that no one wants gun crime or events like yesterday to happen, but it'd be tragic if people admitted defeat to it and accepted the problem as being a norm.

I'm off to bed.

snuggle off, little bugger. finish your tea and be off to repose. make sure you hang up your knickers and say your prayers.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-15-2012, 09:39 PM
Looks interesting, will give it a read sometime tomorrow as it's 4.30am here and I can barely read two sentences. I know that no one wants gun crime or events like yesterday to happen, but it'd be tragic if people admitted defeat to it and accepted the problem as being a norm.

I'm off to bed.

Brush your teeth. For the love of god.

sinuous sausage
12-15-2012, 09:44 PM
http://www.hulu.com/watch/3516

Pony Boy
12-15-2012, 09:48 PM
Looks interesting, will give it a read sometime tomorrow as it's 4.30am here and I can barely read two sentences. I know that no one wants gun crime or events like yesterday to happen, but it'd be tragic if people admitted defeat to it and accepted the problem as being a norm.

I'm off to bed.

Good Night John Boy ..........

KO5K
12-15-2012, 09:52 PM
Brush your teeth. For the love of god.

Bad teeth > dead kid.

baja
12-15-2012, 09:58 PM
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

holy ****


Thanks for posting that. Enlightening.

Willynowei
12-15-2012, 10:23 PM
I generally vote conservative.

But to the people who delude themselves into thinking that the ease of access of guns in this country does not exacerbate greatly the ability of crazies to go on mass killing sprees like this one...

Your'e ****ing stupid, and i hope you get erased from the gene pool soon.

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 10:36 PM
I generally vote conservative.

But to the people who delude themselves into thinking that the ease of access of guns in this country does not exacerbate greatly the ability of crazies to go on mass killing sprees like this one...

Your'e ****ing stupid, and i hope you get erased from the gene pool soon.

I don't think making them harder to buy makes it any better. Also restricting the kinds of guns doesn't help much either because any firearm can kill a lot of people. Was it even the rifle he used for most of the damage or a handgun.

So yes we have to have sane gun laws but I'm not sure that will stop the mass killing incidents. We need the laws just because its a good idea to do whatever we can to stop mentally disabled or criminals from easily buying them.

But gun control really hard to pass outside of token laws to limit high powered military style weapons.

cutthemdown
12-15-2012, 10:41 PM
IMO since we can't get rid of guns 100% we need to think about money to make schools safer and more secure. These are really just domestic terrorists attacks and our schools are targeted. Going to have to make them harder to get into and think about letting principals or school security be armed. That wouldn't stop it either but maybe sometimes an armed principal or school officer can shoot the turd and limit how many get murdered.

Fedaykin
12-15-2012, 11:14 PM
Some imagery that's conforting to people has been posted here, which is great. Here's what brings comfort to me:

Victoria Soto, 27, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., ushered her students into a closet, and in so doing placed her body between them and the assailant.

"She was found huddled over her children, her students, doing instinctively what she knew was the right thing,"

"But Ms Soto, 27, rushed towards the killer, blocking the bullets with her body.

Her cousin, Jim Wiltsie, said police had told him that she was trying to usher her pupils into a storage room when she came face-to-face with Lanza."

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2012/news/121231/victoria-soto-300.jpg

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20656736_20657003,00.html

lonestar
12-15-2012, 11:52 PM
I generally vote conservative.

But to the people who delude themselves into thinking that the ease of access of guns in this country does not exacerbate greatly the ability of crazies to go on mass killing sprees like this one...

Your'e ****ing stupid, and i hope you get erased from the gene pool soon.

Taking guns away or making them illegal has done nothing to stop gun usage in Chicago or new York. While crime may be down the thugs still have guns.

It would have. Been easier to kill folks at the theater months ago by getting into a big rig and mowing them down as they stood in line to get in.

Or bringing in a can of gas and blowing the place up.

There is no way of stopping crazy people from killing others.

Had any of those teachers or front office staff had conceal carry licensees and been armed perhaps no one would have been killed. Or far fewer .. Same goes for the theater in Colorado.

Crazies will find a way. If they are on a mission.

cutthemdown
12-16-2012, 01:57 AM
Lonestar the problem with people carrying guns in public IMO is the fog of war type situations that arise when people start shooting. You could have situations where 2 citizens each think they other was the gunman when in fact both responding to try and help. Then police arrive and everyone has guns how do they know who is gunman, who is citizen etc. IMO the people with the guns need to be in uniform so we know they are supposed to have a gun.

I am all for right to own guns but just letting all of us carry them and expecting that to make things safe is insane.

TomServo
12-16-2012, 03:16 AM
Evil walks among us. even if other forces dont believe in evil. @ 30,000 people die in car wrecks every year. Wrecks! not accidents. someone is at fault. we could lower the max speed limit to 45 mph. but thats not practical. the same people that want gun laws are pretty much the same people that say drug laws are stupid. if a person wants to buy pot or coke can certanly buy a gun.

ghostofjosh
12-16-2012, 06:59 AM
I live in the next town over..i have felt sick to my stomach the last few days..seeing pictures of these kids is heartbreaking..our kids schools went into lockdown as well because of the other guy who was on the loose..longest day of my life...obama is coming here today..its so surreal..gutless peice of **** that guy was

tesnyde
12-16-2012, 07:15 AM
I live in the next town over..i have felt sick to my stomach the last few days..seeing pictures of these kids is heartbreaking..our kids schools went into lockdown as well because of the other guy who was on the loose..longest day of my life...obama is coming here today..its so surreal..gutless peice of **** that guy was

Nothin but time will bring any sort of comfort. We have never lost that sick feeling in Colorado since Columbine and Platt Canyon, we just don't have it 24/7 anymore.

I am bring Rachel's Challange to my school. I already had it scheduled, but more happy than ever to do it. If seen Rachel Scott's dad on TV a lot the last couple of days talking about how he has dealt with his pain. Tough. Time and being proactive against this crap has been his approach.

errand
12-16-2012, 08:13 AM
Lonestar the problem with people carrying guns in public IMO is the fog of war type situations that arise when people start shooting. You could have situations where 2 citizens each think they other was the gunman when in fact both responding to try and help. Then police arrive and everyone has guns how do they know who is gunman, who is citizen etc. IMO the people with the guns need to be in uniform so we know they are supposed to have a gun.



I am all for right to own guns but just letting all of us carry them and expecting that to make things safe is insane.

Supposedly the average number of people killed in a shooting rampage stopped by police is 14+.....just over 2 when it is stopped by private citizens who are armed

Dedhed
12-16-2012, 08:35 AM
Firearm safety class does not mean approved firearm use. Lets face it, guns are prevalent in this country and aren't going away. Why not impart knowledge to the masses how to appropriately use them? More k pledge on the subject might make it easier for us to identify problems with individuals and the system.

I was talking about your draft idea.

baja
12-16-2012, 08:36 AM
Before you guys solve the human being violence problem you should at least fix the incorrect title of the thread.

Dedhed
12-16-2012, 08:47 AM
The other question this tragedy brings up (again, unfortunately) is how do we protect ourselves from monsters like this without sacrificing some of our freedoms?

You're right, it cannot be done, and it's idiocy to try; we seem to try nonetheless. If we make our rules based on the hideous actions of those who entirely lack a moral compass, all we achieve is putting limits on the just people who make up the vast majority of the population.

In this country we spend trillions of dollars to regulate for things that, in the end, we cannot truly be protected from.

Rohirrim
12-16-2012, 08:59 AM
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

holy ****

We deinstitutionalized the mentally ill back in the 80s. That's why you can now bump into some homeless person on the street who couldn't tell you the difference between a dime and a dollar, talking to themselves while pushing around a cart full of trash. Reagan opened up the state mental hospitals under prodding from the ACLU and we started treating the mentally ill with drugs instead of institutionalizing them. Too bad drug therapy doesn't work across the board. I'm sure it creates fat profits for Big Pharma, given how many depression and anxiety drugs are advertised (almost constantly). Many of those state mental hospitals were horrific places. It's a complex issue that would require tax dollars and political cohesion to solve. In other words, ain't gonna happen. What happened in Connecticut? Get used to it.

st.bernard
12-16-2012, 09:14 AM
I generally vote conservative.

But to the people who delude themselves into thinking that the ease of access of guns in this country does not exacerbate greatly the ability of crazies to go on mass killing sprees like this one...

Your'e ****ing stupid, and i hope you get erased from the gene pool soon.

Obviously you are young and have zero experience. Why don't you go get yourself a plane ticket and move to Saudi Arabia. Permanently. The sad part is, you won't. There will come a point in your life when you need to call 911 and need them there in less than 2 seconds. Good Luck with that.

Dedhed
12-16-2012, 09:51 AM
Obviously you are young and have zero experience. Why don't you go get yourself a plane ticket and move to Saudi Arabia. Permanently. The sad part is, you won't. There will come a point in your life when you need to call 911 and need them there in less than 2 seconds. Good Luck with that.

Is this the "love it or leave it" take?

st.bernard
12-16-2012, 10:02 AM
DUI people kill more than guns by far. Lets get rid of cars.
Take it however you want. But when someone blames the gun, time to get on the soapbox. This country exists because of guns. Oversimplified? Maybe. But still true.

Dedhed
12-16-2012, 10:18 AM
DUI people kill more than guns by far. Lets get rid of cars.
Take it however you want. But when someone blames the gun, time to get on the soapbox. This country exists because of guns. Oversimplified? Maybe. But still true.

This is warped analogy. By your logic you're saying we shouldn't regulate and crack down on driving while drunk.

You're failing to distinguish between an accident and violence. Car accidents happen, when alcohol is involved it's no longer an accident. Guns accidentally kill some people, but when you shoot someone, it is not an accident.

It's absurd not to acknowledge the difference.

Rohirrim
12-16-2012, 10:19 AM
I think we should start a national conversation on the question: Are we too violent, as a culture? Look at our movies? Our video games? Our TV shows? If you were to be able to stand back, without any connection to this country (as if you were an alien from another planet) and just look at what we are doing in America, I think you'd be shocked at how violent we are. That's got to be a part of these events. Aren't we teaching that violence is the answer to many problems? Is that our message?

Dedhed
12-16-2012, 10:23 AM
I think we should start a national conversation on the question: Are we too violent, as a culture? Look at our movies? Our video games? Our TV shows? If you were to be able to stand back, without any connection to this country (as if you were an alien from another planet) and just look at what we are doing in America, I think you'd be shocked at how violent we are. That's got to be a part of these events. Aren't we teaching that violence is the answer to many problems? Is that our message?

It is an interesting topic for conversation. There is a fine line between showcasing the effects of violence and reveling in violence. I think there are benefits to the former, and there are certainly consequences that arise from the latter.

Gutless Drunk
12-16-2012, 10:33 AM
DUI people kill more than guns by far. Lets get rid of cars.
Take it however you want. But when someone blames the gun, time to get on the soapbox. This country exists because of guns. Oversimplified? Maybe. But still true.

I see this car accident argument often. The difference, of course, is the automobiles primary design utility is transportation, while the guns primary design utility is to kill. If you can't see why this comparison is not valid, you are clueless.
If this is a subject you are passionate about I suggest you come up with a less intellectually dishonest argument then this crap.

DenverBrit
12-16-2012, 10:42 AM
Had the gunman taken his parents car keys off the counter, then used their car and killed someone in an accident, his parents would have some liability.

If we leave prescription meds out on the counter and our kids use them and overdose, the parents share responsibility.

What is wrong with making gun owners responsible for locking up their weapons and liable when they don't if their guns are used in a crime, or with intent?

We can't anticipate when someone will go off the rails, but we can take responsibility for the easy access to our tools of destruction.

sinuous sausage
12-16-2012, 10:49 AM
Mental health is the issue. Addressing that would benefit not only cases involving these mass murders in the public sphere, but also serial killings and domestic terrorism, things that a handgun ban would have little-to-no effect on.

st.bernard
12-16-2012, 12:16 PM
But it's the cars fault ! Ban them! No difference. They are used to kill. The car is a priviledge, not a right.

Jekyll15Hyde
12-17-2012, 04:40 PM
I see this car accident argument often. The difference, of course, is the automobiles primary design utility is transportation, while the guns primary design utility is to kill. If you can't see why this comparison is not valid, you are clueless.
If this is a subject you are passionate about I suggest you come up with a less intellectually dishonest argument then this crap.

possibly the best post in 18 pages. Its amazing that a tragedy like this cannot at least open the dialog for smarter gun regulation. Everyone assumes that the desired outcome is to just get rid of guns altogether. Hardly. There is a happy medium where is there is a meaningful reduction (but unfortunately not elimination) of these tragedies and law abiding citizens can have guns. Just like with other behaviors, incentives can be provided for or against those activities.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-17-2012, 05:05 PM
One guy makes a shoe bomb that doesn't go off, and we all take off our shoes at the airport now.

A ****load of mass-shootings in public places, and we're not even allowed to talk about changing gun laws.

American Exceptionalism.

gyldenlove
12-17-2012, 05:19 PM
We deinstitutionalized the mentally ill back in the 80s. That's why you can now bump into some homeless person on the street who couldn't tell you the difference between a dime and a dollar, talking to themselves while pushing around a cart full of trash. Reagan opened up the state mental hospitals under prodding from the ACLU and we started treating the mentally ill with drugs instead of institutionalizing them. Too bad drug therapy doesn't work across the board. I'm sure it creates fat profits for Big Pharma, given how many depression and anxiety drugs are advertised (almost constantly). Many of those state mental hospitals were horrific places. It's a complex issue that would require tax dollars and political cohesion to solve. In other words, ain't gonna happen. What happened in Connecticut? Get used to it.

The problem with medication based therapy is that not only are there no fail-safes in case of failed therapy there is also no way to prevent self-discontinuation which is very common and a source of a large number of criminal offences committed by people who are known to be severely mentally ill.

Another factor is of course the glorification of violence - not through computer games, movies and literature, but through the news media. Aside from a few key political figures and a few disgraced celebrities, nobody gets more media attention than criminals and the more heinous the crimes the more attention is given. Donate a kidney to save the life of someone you don't know and it will maybe get a mention in a small local newspaper, save 4 children from a burning house and it will get a mention in the regional paper with a photo and a blurb on local tv news as human interest. Murder 20 children and your face, name and every aspect of your life will be on the front of every national news outlet for weeks.

The amount of news coverage for Newtown is more than the combined media coverage of every single of the roughly 32.000 deaths that will occur in traffic this year in the US. The murderer of those children will be the end of this year have his name mentioned more in the news than the prime ministers of France, the United Kingdom, Canada and Japan combined.

cutthemdown
12-17-2012, 05:53 PM
Supposedly the average number of people killed in a shooting rampage stopped by police is 14+.....just over 2 when it is stopped by private citizens who are armed

But right now only a few citizens are armed. You guys are talking about making it easier for everyone to carry. Those stats might change into 3-4 more people killed by crossfire etc. Also police respond to so many more then a citizen so comparing the two seems like a bit of a reach to me.

But an interesting stat if its accurate.

Still if i heard shooting, then i run out, and 3 people have guns it would be tough to know who to shoot. All 3 could be gunman, or 2 of them, or none of them.

cutthemdown
12-17-2012, 06:04 PM
comparing cars to guns is sort of lame. Why not just say gun deaths acceptable because we want to keep our guns. Selfish but honestly its the truth. Many people would say I want to protect myself if the need arise, and if that means guns are out there for someone to use in a mass killing so be it. People just afraid to admit they are selfish and you want what you want regardless of the repercussions. Trying to tie it to automobiles is just a way of finding something everyone uses for life in the modern world so you can avoid saying I want to keep my guns and little kids getting shot doesn't change that. So instead gun people say well if we were all armed it would be safer. If the principal had an ak-47 things would be different. Or hey cars kill more people lets all ride horses......and carry a shotgun. lol.

I like my few firearms because if someone comes into my house i can shoot them. Or if once a blue moon arises and my friends want to go shoot birds i have a shotgun to do it. Some crazy killing kids should not change those rights so really there is no way to get guns out of populace. Also there is no way we aren't driving our cars. So we will just have to deal with it like a sane nation would.

Safer cars, DUI enforcement, better driver training, more security at schools, try and help strange loners more instead of letting them fall through cracks etc. And yes maybe even saying that every school will have a few teachers or principals with access to a firearm if some mass shooting starts going down. Can of worms right there though but maybe it could help. For sure though we need to make schools harder for people who dont belong there to get into. The question is where does the money come from schools already spending every penny they get.

razorwire77
12-17-2012, 07:13 PM
I think we should start a national conversation on the question: Are we too violent, as a culture? Look at our movies? Our video games? Our TV shows? If you were to be able to stand back, without any connection to this country (as if you were an alien from another planet) and just look at what we are doing in America, I think you'd be shocked at how violent we are. That's got to be a part of these events. Aren't we teaching that violence is the answer to many problems? Is that our message?

Violence" An American Tradition is a pretty interesting documentary which chronicled the history of cultural violence. It was on HBO a while back. Definitely worth watching (I believe it's uploaded to Youtube).

errand
12-17-2012, 07:36 PM
This is warped analogy. By your logic you're saying we shouldn't regulate and crack down on driving while drunk.

You're failing to distinguish between an accident and violence. Car accidents happen, when alcohol is involved it's no longer an accident. Guns accidentally kill some people, but when you shoot someone, it is not an accident.

It's absurd not to acknowledge the difference.

again...cars don't have accidents...people have accidents. Cars don't drink alcohol...people drink alcohol. Guns don't accidently shoot people...people accidently shoot people. Guns don't kill people....people kill people.

Sane responsible people owning guns is not the problem...just as sober responsible people are not the problem with DUI deaths. Psychos obtaining guns is the problem...but keep in mind this clown stole the guns he used. He didn't buy them at a gun show, or gun/pawn shop.

another problem is this psycho had no criminal record...and we cannot just put whack job people like him in the looney bin because he acted weird prior to his killing spree.

As a gun owner, I am responsible...I know that every round that is fired by me, I am going to be held accountable for...and God forbid the day comes that I have to shoot someone and they die as a result...I understand that I will probably be charged with murder until the evidence proves otherwise....the problem is that these nut jobs don't care about laws, or accountability.

Safe sober drivers shouldn't be punished because some idiot drives drunk, nor should safe responsible gun owners be punished because some psycho decides to steal a few guns and go on a killing spree.

errand
12-17-2012, 07:46 PM
But right now only a few citizens are armed. You guys are talking about making it easier for everyone to carry. Those stats might change into 3-4 more people killed by crossfire etc. Also police respond to so many more then a citizen so comparing the two seems like a bit of a reach to me.

But an interesting stat if its accurate.

Still if i heard shooting, then i run out, and 3 people have guns it would be tough to know who to shoot. All 3 could be gunman, or 2 of them, or none of them.

The difference is that an armed citizen could respond immediately to a shooting rampage, the cops take longer to get there and assess the situation waiting on SWAT possibly, etc......

There was a mass murder in a Luby's several years ago...and they interviewed a woman whose parents were killed in it....she was a legal gun owner who had left her gun in her vehicle as she obeyed the sign on the front door that said "no guns allowed". She had just come out of the restroom approximately one minute before the shooting rampage started, and the perps hadn't noticed her...she would have had a clear shot at them, and could have dropped them...if only.

imagine if the principal or one of the teachers/assistants were concealed carriers? This mother****er probably doesn't kill a solitary child as he'd have been dropped liked 3rd period French class as soon as he drew his weapon....

houghtam
12-17-2012, 07:46 PM
Something very bothersome to me here.

I see many people talking about the fact that we need to do better at diagnosing and treating people with mental illness. It's a nice thought, but unless I missed it, no one has really proposed a real solution. Yay, we can start the discussion on it, but mental illness is a health issue, and it's not going to be a simple or quick fix, and it definitely won't be free. Our healthcare system is a shambles as it is. Are people actually proposing putting more money into the healthcare system to deal with this?

I see a lot of people saying we should be arming teachers and principals or beefing up security. I already stated in another thread that I find it hard to believe that you'd find teachers being willing to work in those conditions. Sooo...what? Are we going to just ask for volunteer teachers to pack heat? Are we going to require it? Are we going to pay them for the training needed? Cutthemdown responded that we should fire the worst teacher and hire a security guard and just move that teacher's kids to another classroom, as if class size were not already a big problem. Are we really proposing adding an "armed security" line item to school budgets that are already stretched to the limit?



For all his lunacy, Cut has it right about the Second Amendment folks...they're too cowardly to simply come out and say "a few innocent victims is acceptable collateral damage for my right to own a gun." They camouflage it in analogies to car accidents, knife slayings and bombings, neglecting the fact that, in many cases it takes a completely different psychological profile to pull a trigger than it does to build a bomb or slit a throat. To say that this killer in Connecticut would have just built a bomb or gone on a knife rampage if he couldn't have gotten his hands on some guns is not only over-simplifying a complex situation, it's jumping to a conclusion that no medical professional would...but then again, there goes science again, injecting facts into a discussion fueled by emotions.

I also find it troubling that there are people still viewing this as an isolated incident.

February 22, 2012—Five people were killed in at a Korean health spa in Norcross, Georgia, when a man opened fire inside the facility in an act suspected to be related to domestic violence.

February 26, 2012—Multiple gunmen began firing into a nightclub crown in Jackson, Tennessee, killing one person and injuring 20 others.

February 27, 2012—Three students at Chardon High School in rural Ohio were killed when a classmate opened fire.

March 8, 2012—Two people were killed and seven wounded at a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when a gunman entered the hospital with two semiautomatic handguns and began firing.

March 31, 2012—A gunman opened fire on a crowd of mourners at a North Miami, Florida, funeral home, killing two people and injuring 12 others.

April 2, 2012—A 43-year-old former student at Oikos University in Oakland, California, walked into his former school and killed seven people, “execution-style.” Three people were wounded.

April 6, 2012—Two men went on a deadly shooting spree in Tulsa, Oklahoma, shooting black men at random in an apparently racially motivated attack. Three men died and two were wounded.

May 29, 2012—A man in Seattle, Washington, opened fire in a coffee shop and killed five people and then himself.

July 9, 2012—At a soccer tournament in Wilmington, Delaware, three people were killed, including a 16-year-old player and the event organizer, when multiple gunmen began firing shots, apparently targeting the organizer.

July 20, 2012—James Holmes enters a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises and opens fire with a semi-automatic weapon; twelve people are killed and fifty-eight are wounded.

August 5, 2012—A white supremacist and former Army veteran shot six people to death inside a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

August 14, 2012—Three people were killed at Texas A&M University when a 35-year-old man went on a shooting rampage; one of the dead was a police officer.

September 27, 2012—A 36-year-old man who had just been laid off from Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, Minnesota, entered his former workplace and shot five people to death, and wounded three others before killing himself.

October 21, 2012—45-year-old Radcliffe Frankin Haughton shot three women to death, including his wife, Zina Haughton, and injured four others at a spa in Brookfield, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

December 11, 2012—A 22-year-old began shooting at random at a mall near Portland, Oregon, killing two people and then himself.

December 14, 2012—One man, and possibly more, murders a reported twenty-six people at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, including twenty children, before killing himself.

This is not an isolated incident. The United States is a sick country, and I don't know if banning guns is the cure, but more guns certainly isn't.



But back to cut's point. It would be a lot easier to have a debate if you guns rights advocates actually were a bit more intellectually honest. Just go ahead and say it:

"The twenty murdered children in Newtown, CT are acceptable collateral damage for my right to own a gun, and I'm perfectly okay with that as the status quo."

Which one of you is going to be man enough to put your name next to that quote first?

errand
12-17-2012, 08:05 PM
But back to cut's point. It would be a lot easier to have a debate if you guns rights advocates actually were a bit more intellectually honest. Just go ahead and say it:

"The twenty murdered children in Newtown, CT are acceptable collateral damage for my right to own a gun, and I'm perfectly okay with that as the status quo."

Which one of you is going to be man enough to put your name next to that quote first?

What is odd is that very few are willing to admit that this tragedy could have been prevented at best or been less severe had one or more of those teachers been a law abiding citizen that was armed.

What you left out in your long list of deadly shootings is that those weren't committed by responsible gun owners.....if those whack jobs couldn't obtain a gun legally, they would have still acquired one by either stealing it or buying it from another criminal element.

Law abiding citizens are called such because they obey the law...psychos and criminals unfortunately do not. And when seconds count, remember that the police are minutes away.

As for how I feel...read my avatar. My right to own a gun is what protects your right to tell me I can't own one. I carry a gun because I'm not strong enough to carry a cop around all day....and my life is more valuable to me than the thug trying to harm me. If he valued life at all, he would never have broken into my home, or tried to jack my car, or kill me.

houghtam
12-17-2012, 08:18 PM
What is odd is that very few are willing to admit that this tragedy could have been prevented at best or been less severe had one or more of those teachers been a law abiding citizen that was armed.

What you left out in your long list of deadly shootings is that those weren't committed by responsible gun owners.....if those whack jobs couldn't obtain a gun legally, they would have still acquired one by either stealing it or buying it from another criminal element.

Law abiding citizens are called such because they obey the law...psychos and criminals unfortunately do not. And when seconds count, remember that the police are minutes away.

As for how I feel...read my avatar. My right to own a gun is what protects your right to tell me I can't own one. I carry a gun because I'm not strong enough to carry a cop around all day....and my life is more valuable to me than the thug trying to harm me. If he valued life at all, he would never have broken into my home, or tried to jack my car, or kill me.

So, yes or no? Are those mass shootings acceptable collateral damage? Are you okay with the status quo?

Arkie
12-17-2012, 08:22 PM
http://www.a-human-right.com/ccw/s_dont.jpg

errand
12-17-2012, 08:34 PM
So, yes or no? Are those mass shootings acceptable collateral damage? Are you okay with the status quo?

No, mass murder is not acceptable, but it does happen, and the US Constitution gives me the right to arm myself to ensure it doesn't happen to me or my kids, or anyone else...

Richard Speck killed about a dozen nursing students with a knife and his bare hands, so will you admit you want to continue to have a butcher knife and those nurses are collateral damage? don't be stupid man....

You keep trying to paint people into your template...

once again, if there was one or more law abiding citizens who were armed, those mass shootings are probably prevented or at the least, the death toll greatly reduced...because that ****ing clown that shot those kids might have gotten the principal...he'd have been the next person shot and killed

houghtam
12-17-2012, 08:48 PM
No, mass murder is not acceptable, but it does happen, and the US Constitution gives me the right to arm myself to ensure it doesn't happen to me or my kids, or anyone else...

So you are saying it is acceptable. "Acceptable" doesn't mean you like or encourage it, it means that you acknowledge that you realize there are consequences, but in the end it doesn't matter as long as you get to keep your guns. This is evidenced by the fact that if someone even tries to introduce gun control legislation (not simply banning guns), the gun-worshippers will be the first to preach the good word of the Second Amendment.

Richard Speck killed about a dozen nursing students with a knife and his bare hands, so will you admit you want to continue to have a butcher knife and those nurses are collateral damage? don't be stupid man....

And as I said, in many cases it takes a completely different psychological make-up to kill someone with a knife vs. a bomb vs. a gun. This is over and above the common sense that knives don't quite have the range that guns do, and the fact that the sword that is your argument has two edges...just think of the damage Speck could have done if had used a gun instead.

You keep trying to paint people into your template...

once again, if there was one or more law abiding citizens who were armed, those mass shootings are probably prevented or at the least, the death toll greatly reduced...because that ****ing clown that shot those kids might have gotten the principal...he'd have been the next person shot and killed

Except this isn't Rambo, or Toy Soldiers, or whatever other NRA fantasy circle jerk film you people worship, this is real life. I would be a little more comfortable with concealed and open carry if the people carrying had to go through the same rigorous tests the military does, but they don't. The potential to make an awful situation much worse is just as likely as stopping it entirely. They put a school on lockdown today because some kids were playing with a long umbrella that someone thought was a gun. What do you think would have happened if the teacher who called in the incident was toting a gun?

Bold.

errand
12-17-2012, 08:50 PM
Is innocent life valuable?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, then is innocent life worth protecting?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, should we be allowed to effectively defend or protect our life?

If Yes, then why ban guns?

If No, then in what meaningful sense is your life valuable?

houghtam
12-17-2012, 08:52 PM
Is innocent life valuable?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, then is innocent life worth protecting?

If No, then why ban guns?

If Yes, should we be allowed to effectively defend or protect our life?

If Yes, then why ban guns?

If No, then in what meaningful sense is your life valuable?

Who is advocating banning Guns? (Big G)

errand
12-17-2012, 09:28 PM
Houghtam stated - So you are saying it is acceptable. "Acceptable" doesn't mean you like or encourage it, it means that you acknowledge that you realize there are consequences, but in the end it doesn't matter as long as you get to keep your guns. This is evidenced by the fact that if someone even tries to introduce gun control legislation (not simply banning guns), the gun-worshippers will be the first to preach the good word of the Second Amendment.

Uh, no...it is not acceptable...saying it is acceptable means I think it's OK. If banning guns would prevent murders and mass killings, I'd be all for it. You just need to convince the rapists and thieves and killers and other criminals to turn their guns in first...good luck with that.

I carry a gun, and if I was at Sandy Hook School and saw this creep pull out his gun to shoot innocent people he'd have been dead before he knew what the **** had happened....and guess what "Mr. I have an agenda", there are gun control laws. It's not like you can just walk into a gun store and purchase a gun.....I cannot buy an automatic weapon....I cannot by a sub-machine gun or MG42.

I can however upon passing a background check and registering my weapon in accordance with the gun control laws in the state I reside in legally own a semi-automatic rifle or hand gun

And as I said, in many cases it takes a completely different psychological make-up to kill someone with a knife vs. a bomb vs. a gun. This is over and above the common sense that knives don't quite have the range that guns do, and the fact that the sword that is your argument has two edges...just think of the damage Speck could have done if had used a gun instead.

I'll argue that it takes a whack job to murder someone regardless of the weapon of choice....you for some stupid reason think that nobody ever murdered anyone until the gun was invented....and Speck couldn't have done anymore damage had he had a gun...he still would have killed the nurses. As it ends up he was able to do so quite well without a gun....but pray tell how many would he have been able to kill if one or more of those nurses were carrying a gun themselves? I bet the number is far less than the 12 he did in fact murder

Except this isn't Rambo, or Toy Soldiers, or whatever other NRA fantasy circle jerk film you people worship, this is real life. I would be a little more comfortable with concealed and open carry if the people carrying had to go through the same rigorous tests the military does, but they don't.

Au contraire mother****er! While I can't speak for every state, I can say that those who carry concealed in many of them have to go thru a class and are instructed in the responsible use of hand guns and gun law. And I'm a former Marine, and many many other gun owners are current and former military men and women. Again you are talking about everyone...I'm talking about sane, responsible law abiding citizens who don't act like it's the old wild west, but will defend even your ignorant life should some psycho have a gun or knife coming towards you

The potential to make an awful situation much worse is just as likely as stopping it entirely. They put a school on lockdown today because some kids were playing with a long umbrella that someone thought was a gun. What do you think would have happened if the teacher who called in the incident was toting a gun?

Did you ever hear of the Pearl River, MS school shooting? Sixteen year old Luke Woodham murdered his mother, then went to his high school wearing an orange jumpsuit and trench coat, and shot and killed two people and wounded several others before getting into his mother's car to head towards Pearl river middle school and conduct yet another shooting rampage.....

did the fact that the school was a gun free zone stop him? Nope....

did a law abiding armed citizen (asst. principal Joel Myrick) stop him from committing more murders? Yes....

Once again, a responsible law abiding citizen who was armed prevented middle schoolers from being murdered and reduced the carnage this psycho clown tried to do.

errand
12-17-2012, 09:31 PM
Who is advocating banning Guns? (Big G)

Really? Lie to your friends and family, but please stop lying to me.....

errand
12-17-2012, 09:34 PM
FWIW houghtam....I'll say that almost all of the people who own guns for protection pray that they never have to use them.....just because we're not afraid to defend ourselves or other innocent people doesn't mean we have fantasies of killing intruders or stopping school shootings

Meck77
12-17-2012, 10:17 PM
Just in Colorado they are processing over 4,000 gun purchases PER DAY.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22208917/colorado-gun-background-checks-break-records

Anyone who thinks that any greater gun control is going to make a damn bit of difference in a sea of hundreds of millions of guns is fooling themselves.

Anyone remember the Pearl High School shooting? Didn't think so. The reason is the principal ended the situation even before the police arrived with his own pistol from his car.:thumbsup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Fedaykin
12-18-2012, 12:17 AM
FWIW houghtam....I'll say that almost all of the people who own guns for protection pray that they never have to use them.....just because we're not afraid to defend ourselves or other innocent people doesn't mean we have fantasies of killing intruders or stopping school shootings

As an firearm owner myself (ironically, I probably own and have more involvement -- reloading, restoring, collecting, etc. -- in firearms than some or even most of the NRA 2nd amendment homers on the board) I can say that I've met both types in significant numbers:

* People like you, myself and others that would avoid taking a life, even of an attacker, unless absolutely necessary.
* People that DO lust after the idea of taking out "the bad guys" and being "a hero".

The idea that the second category doesn't exist in significant numbers is just not true.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-18-2012, 06:34 AM
Just in Colorado they are processing over 4,000 gun purchases PER DAY.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22208917/colorado-gun-background-checks-break-records

Anyone who thinks that any greater gun control is going to make a damn bit of difference in a sea of hundreds of millions of guns is fooling themselves.

Anyone remember the Pearl High School shooting? Didn't think so. The reason is the principal ended the situation even before the police arrived with his own pistol from his car.:thumbsup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Cool. It's all over then. Don't bother going out in public; everyone's got guns and there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

America.

Meck77
12-18-2012, 09:20 AM
Cool. It's all over then. Don't bother going out in public; everyone's got guns and there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

America.

That's more dramatic than my 4 year old niece!

If you want a shining example of how well the toughest gun control laws work visit Chicago.

We are spending billions on wars in the middle east and beyond yet most American schools can't even afford a $35,000 a year security guard with a taser. Our children are sitting ducks in gun free zones. The nut jobs know this.

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 09:40 AM
What is odd is that very few are willing to admit that this tragedy could have been prevented at best or been less severe had one or more of those teachers been a law abiding citizen that was armed.

One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.

Meck77
12-18-2012, 09:45 AM
One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.

Mother was home. You know that. Had there been someone trained in the school that could have come at this guy with something other than a book I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


Saw an interview from a guy who has investigated something like 37 mass shooting attempts. Conclusion. Most attackers shoot themselves when they know someone with a gun is near.

See mall shooting in Oregon recently. A young guy with a concealed weapon just pointed it at the shooter and the piece of **** shot himself. The shooter would have shot plenty of more people until the police arrived.

c_lazy_r
12-18-2012, 09:46 AM
again...cars don't have accidents...people have accidents. Cars don't drink alcohol...people drink alcohol. Guns don't accidently shoot people...people accidently shoot people. Guns don't kill people....people kill people.

Sane responsible people owning guns is not the problem...just as sober responsible people are not the problem with DUI deaths. Psychos obtaining guns is the problem...but keep in mind this clown stole the guns he used. He didn't buy them at a gun show, or gun/pawn shop.

another problem is this psycho had no criminal record...and we cannot just put whack job people like him in the looney bin because he acted weird prior to his killing spree.

As a gun owner, I am responsible...I know that every round that is fired by me, I am going to be held accountable for...and God forbid the day comes that I have to shoot someone and they die as a result...I understand that I will probably be charged with murder until the evidence proves otherwise....the problem is that these nut jobs don't care about laws, or accountability.

Safe sober drivers shouldn't be punished because some idiot drives drunk, nor should safe responsible gun owners be punished because some psycho decides to steal a few guns and go on a killing spree.

That is a great post. :thumbs:

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 09:48 AM
As an firearm owner myself (ironically, I probably own and have more involvement -- reloading, restoring, collecting, etc. -- in firearms than some or even most of the NRA 2nd amendment homers on the board) I can say that I've met both types in significant numbers:

* People like you, myself and others that would avoid taking a life, even of an attacker, unless absolutely necessary.
* People that DO lust after the idea of taking out "the bad guys" and being "a hero".

The idea that the second category doesn't exist in significant numbers is just not true.This is a great post. A huge part of the problem is that there are so many people who are completely unwilling to have an honest conversation about the issue. Errand is the perfect example. Not admitting that there are gun owners, in significant numbers, who do have "hero" dreams, is refusing to engage in a real discussion on the issue.

I applaud you for injecting some honesty into the debate.

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 09:49 AM
Mother was home, Dead.

You forgot a detail.

misturanderson
12-18-2012, 10:17 AM
Mother was home. You know that. Had there been someone trained in the school that could have come at this guy with something other than a book I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


Saw an interview from a guy who has investigated something like 37 mass shooting attempts. Conclusion. Most attackers shoot themselves when they know someone with a gun is near.

See mall shooting in Oregon recently. A young guy with a concealed weapon just pointed it at the shooter and the piece of **** shot himself. The shooter would have shot plenty of more people until the police arrived.

Maybe you shouldn't get your news from Facebook. I hear that literally NOTHING posted by right wing nut job Facebook groups is even remotely factually accurate. Ever.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/12/gun-jammed-in-oregon-mall-shooting-as-authorities-id-suspect/?test=latestnews

Fedaykin
12-18-2012, 10:17 AM
Mother was home. You know that. Had there been someone trained in the school that could have come at this guy with something other than a book I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


Saw an interview from a guy who has investigated something like 37 mass shooting attempts. Conclusion. Most attackers shoot themselves when they know someone with a gun is near.

See mall shooting in Oregon recently. A young guy with a concealed weapon just pointed it at the shooter and the piece of **** shot himself. The shooter would have shot plenty of more people until the police arrived.

More weapons in more people's hands may prevent mass suicide killings (I think it's a reasonable argument to make), but do you think it will reduce the overall number of firearm related deaths? Accidents, crimes of passion, hero types shooting kids for stealing purses, etc.?

Rohirrim
12-18-2012, 10:20 AM
More weapons in more people's hands may prevent mass suicide killings (I think it's a reasonable argument to make), but do you think it will reduce the overall number of firearm related deaths? Accidents, crimes of passion, hero types shooting kids for stealing purses, etc.?

And it's only a matter of time before a couple of "hero types" are shooting it out between themselves in public.

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 10:58 AM
More weapons in more people's hands may prevent mass suicide killings (I think it's a reasonable argument to make), but do you think it will reduce the overall number of firearm related deaths? Accidents, crimes of passion, hero types shooting kids for stealing purses, etc.?

All of the studies show this to be the case.

Fedaykin
12-18-2012, 11:02 AM
All of the studies show this to be the case.


links?

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 11:10 AM
links?

https://www.google.com/

Fedaykin
12-18-2012, 11:12 AM
https://www.google.com/

yeahhh, not going to do your research for you.

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 11:12 AM
yeahhh, not going to do your research for you.

No, you just have to do a simple search. Seriously.

So let me google that for you...


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=number+of+guns+lower+gun+crimes

Fedaykin
12-18-2012, 11:18 AM
No, you just have to do a simple search. Seriously.

So let me google that for you...


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=number+of+guns+lower+gun+crimes

That's cute, but ironically the top results don't support your claim. Most of them say that gun ownership doesn't even correlate with crime rates.

But, obviously you aren't interested in real conversation, so bye.

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 11:22 AM
Well, Bye

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 11:24 AM
All of the studies show this to be the case.

Were the days of the Great Frontier included in those studies? Isn't that what the more guns advocates are arguing for?

Everyone had a gun, and we know that no one died from guns in those days.

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Were the days of the Great Frontier included in those studies? Isn't that what the more guns advocates are arguing for?

Everyone had a gun, and we know that no one died from guns in those days.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 11:29 AM
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660

Wow- You found one whole book that argues that point. Great work!

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf

That was easy!

BroncoBeavis
12-18-2012, 11:42 AM
Were the days of the Great Frontier included in those studies? Isn't that what the more guns advocates are arguing for?

Everyone had a gun, and we know that no one died from guns in those days.

I think that era was slightly more marked by the absence of law than the presence of guns.

broncocalijohn
12-18-2012, 12:13 PM
I think that era was slightly more marked by the absence of law than the presence of guns.

Thank God too because look how boring all those Western TV shows and movies would be if it was all nice and ****.

In reality, I doubt the West was quite like how they show us in Hollywood. I read somewhere that many on the Plains or West were black cowboys(Maybe 25%) but you never see that in the movies or shows.

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 12:14 PM
I think that era was slightly more marked by the absence of law than the presence of guns.

I would say it's marked more by taking the law into your own hands than anything.

broncocalijohn
12-18-2012, 12:18 PM
FWIW houghtam....I'll say that almost all of the people who own guns for protection pray that they never have to use them.....just because we're not afraid to defend ourselves or other innocent people doesn't mean we have fantasies of killing intruders or stopping school shootings

Most crime is stopped by simply pointing a firearm at a criminal. For the non nut jobs, they don't want to die and most don't want to kill someone. If I am in that situation, my first thought is protecting my family. That criminal better freeze because I am not positive he has a weapon on him and if so, won't use it.

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 12:58 PM
http://www.bookwormroom.com/2012/12/14/factual-weaponry-for-the-stalwart-foot-soldiers-fighting-on-behalf-of-the-2nd-amendment-in-the-cause-of-common-sense/

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 12:59 PM
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335848/gun-control-ignorance-thomas-sowell#

ColoradoDarin
12-18-2012, 01:07 PM
Wow- You found one whole book that argues that point. Great work!

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf

That was easy!

Sure is...

While reading Ayres and Donohue’s 2003 article in the Stanford Law Review, we noticed that their analysis did not prove what they said it proved.

More (http://www.volokh.com/posts/1231870158.shtml)

JLesSPE
12-18-2012, 01:43 PM
I would say it's marked more by taking the law into your own hands than anything.

Well the next time my life, the life of my family, or my property is threatened I will call the cops and politely look at the perpetrator and say, "You're in big trouble mister! I called the police and they'll be here in 20 minutes or so." I'm sure all will be well and good.

errand
12-18-2012, 03:11 PM
One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.

Yeah, well she never expected her allegedly autistic son to snap, steal her guns as she slept and shoot her in the head....and any reasonable person knows I was talking about at the school when the douchebag started this shooting spree

what you'll never admit is that the only thing that stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun.

bronco militia
12-18-2012, 03:23 PM
EXCLUSIVE: Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fear-being-committed-may-have-caused-connecticut-madman-to-snap/#ixzz2FRd4iaZP

troyjbath
12-18-2012, 04:09 PM
Walmart and Dick's suspend the sale of semi-auto rifles. PR stunt.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/justice/connecticut-dicks-guns/

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 04:26 PM
Yeah, well she never expected her allegedly autistic son to snap, steal her guns as she slept and shoot her in the head....and any reasonable person knows I was talking about at the school when the douchebag started this shooting spreeMMkay...you're one of those Tom Cruise "mental illness doesn't exist" folks I take it.

what you'll never admit is that the only thing that stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun.I freely admit that, but I'd much rather said bad person never got a gun in the first place.

This is still a tragedy if someone shoots the guy when he's only killed 7 kids. You'll never engage in an honest discussion on the topic.

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 04:30 PM
Well the next time my life, the life of my family, or my property is threatened I will call the cops and politely look at the perpetrator and say, "You're in big trouble mister! I called the police and they'll be here in 20 minutes or so." I'm sure all will be well and good.

I'm not trying at all to argue against your right to do that. Like most other pro-gunners you've assumed that anyone who wants gun control is trying to repeal the second amendment and therefore dismiss any discussion with grandiose quotes from Moses.

BroncoBeavis
12-18-2012, 04:52 PM
One teacher was a law abiding citizen who was armed; the killer's mother. Making the argument that more guns would help is just beyond a joke.

Turns out the whole Mom was a Teacher thing was bull****. If this episode has proven anything, its that our media is starting to borderline on criminally negligent.

http://news.yahoo.com/nancy-lanza-reportedly-wasnt-teacher-sandy-hook-elementary-163928460.html

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 04:55 PM
Turns out the whole Mom was a Teacher thing was bull****. If this episode has proven anything, its that our media is starting to borderline on criminally negligent.

http://news.yahoo.com/nancy-lanza-reportedly-wasnt-teacher-sandy-hook-elementary-163928460.html

The media crossed that line a long time ago.

BroncoBeavis
12-18-2012, 05:02 PM
This is still a tragedy if someone shoots the guy when he's only killed 7 kids. You'll never engage in an honest discussion on the topic.

The scale of the thing matters. Unless the argument is we should turn the world into a padded cell where nobody can hurt anyone.

Dedhed
12-18-2012, 05:10 PM
The scale of the thing matters.

Are you willing to apply that same argument to idea of automatic and semi-automatic weapons?

Meck77
12-18-2012, 05:39 PM
EXCLUSIVE: Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fear-being-committed-may-have-caused-connecticut-madman-to-snap/#ixzz2FRd4iaZP

Well like I said on page 9 or so days ago. The mental heath system is jacked up. There is just no easy way to commit someone until they really are dangerous. By then it's often too late. See Connecticut. The mental healthcare system has much more of the blame than the AR-15 itself.

Mom has probably been begging for help for years.

Irish Stout
12-18-2012, 05:48 PM
Well like I said on page 9 or so days ago. The mental heath system is jacked up. There is just no easy way to commit someone. The mental healthcare system has much more of the blame than the AR-15 itself.

Mom has probably been begging for help for years.

I agree with this. The mental healthcare system in this country has always had problems and its an incredibly tough challenge for society to face moving forward. Mental illness is so hard to judge sometimes, even for the professionals... then its sometimes hard to weigh an individuals abilities and freedom to whats actually best for the individual and others.

Gun control is a topic thats not going away... and it may be a band aid fix... but would there be any common ground in looking at mental health evaluations for gun purchasers as part of the control or is that too invasive? I'm sure people would still slip through the cracks and criminals who might already be mentally unstable will still commit crimes and steal guns. However, we have to start somewhere. I actually think this is too invasive... but it would also be something I'd be willing to accept. I'll likely ever own the one shotgun I currently have.

What about a requirement on automatic weapons that you must pass a training course (with or without a mental health eval) and then a trigger lock that requires a finger print ID pad to unlock the weapon? Without a mental health eval its not as invasive and it doesn't hinder people's right...

Just thoughts.

Rohirrim
12-18-2012, 05:54 PM
I agree with this. The mental healthcare system in this country has always had problems and its an incredibly tough challenge for society to face moving forward. Mental illness is so hard to judge sometimes, even for the professionals... then its sometimes hard to weigh an individuals abilities and freedom to whats actually best for the individual and others.

Gun control is a topic thats not going away... and it may be a band aid fix... but would there be any common ground in looking at mental health evaluations for gun purchasers as part of the control or is that too invasive? I'm sure people would still slip through the cracks and criminals who might already be mentally unstable will still commit crimes and steal guns. However, we have to start somewhere. I actually think this is too invasive... but it would also be something I'd be willing to accept. I'll likely ever own the one shotgun I currently have.

What about a requirement on automatic weapons that you must pass a training course (with or without a mental health eval) and then a trigger lock that requires a finger print ID pad to unlock the weapon? Without a mental health eval its not as invasive and it doesn't hinder people's right...

Just thoughts.

Well, we could go all "originalist" like Scalia et al. Since the founders wrote the second amendment when the only available "arms" were rifled muskets, just outlaw everything else but that. ;D

houghtam
12-18-2012, 06:12 PM
Well, we could go all "originalist" like Scalia et al. Since the founders wrote the second amendment when the only available "arms" were rifled muskets, just outlaw everything else but that. ;D

Not even rifled. Good luck hitting anything at more than 25 feet!

;)

broncosteven
12-18-2012, 06:52 PM
Here is the thing I have been thinking about regarding this incident and the gun debate.

During the Conn shooting the kid shoots his mom (with HER Gun) then shoots his way into the school kicking away the glass and crawling through the window. He shoots the 2 who approach him and try to stop him. Then shoots kids and teachers until he hears sirens then shoots himself.

In this instance someone having a hand gun in the glove box of their car is not going to have time to run out there get it and get back, chances are he would have likely been killed fleeing to his car or unable to get back into a building in lock down.

Trying to control guns is not the only answer, nut jobs will find other ways to carry out their plans as has been pointed out here.

The teachers having guns on site means they need to be trained how to use them and have the courage to kill someone else trained to use guns who is crazy and hell bent on death and mayhem, I don't see this working either. Plus if a citizen was packing and did return fire that only complicates the situation when the authorities do arrive. Who is the bad guy? What if a 3rd citizen shows up and returns fire, who does he choose to fire on? Now bullets are firing and no one knows who the bad guy is and even more people could get hurt. I don't think having more guns in this type of situation is the answer.

So I spent all weekend thinking about all these senarios and what would make me feel safer as a parent who is dropping his kids off at school, and I got my answer. Monday morning my daughter had seen the news and we talked about what happened and what she would do if the same thing should happen at her school, she was scared, she hugged me at least 3 times and gave me kisses and you could tell it was hard for her to muster the courage to go to school.

The thing is when we got to her school the principal was out there standing next to a policeman, and suddenly I didn't feel as concerned and I asked my daughter when I picked her up if she felt better have the officer there which she did.

I don't think having a dude(or more) sitting in the hall of every grade and middle school for the whole school day is the solution but having more police on the street, checking in at all public areas (schools, malls, churches, etc...) is a better option than arming the public.

I don't want to pack heat, it would hurt me physically to fire a round due to my disablity, I don't want to go through the training or target practice. I hate guns. I am tired of hearing about kids finding a gun in their house or their friends house and getting hurt or killed. I am tired about hearing of the shooting epidemic in the drug riddled areas of cities like Chicago. I am tired of hearing about multiple armed robberies in my town, which is far from the drug riddled areas of Chicago. I would rather have someone who has been trained and sworn to protect citizens, who knows what to do in shooting or hostage events, do what they were trained and prepared to do.

We will never have a way to stop crime or mass shootings, people have been going nuts and killing masses of other innocent people ever since men have walked the Earth. I think adding to our police and training them to act in events like this give us a better chance to live in a safe and free society. We haven't had armed robberies in our town in the 14 years I lived here and over the summer we had 3, the response was a larger police presence in the locations of the robberies.

The suburb I live in has 30,000 people, it is staffed with only 55 sworn officers, most of them have management roles or are in special roles like drug enforcement, etc... THere are 2 Traffic cops, 2 beat cops, and 29 other officers protecting us 24/7/365. There is one sworn officer to about every 550 citizens, it takes 15 minutes to drive from one end of my village to the other, maybe 6 if your in high persuit and don't get stuck by a train.

I am not sure how long the response time was from the 1st 911 call in Conn to the time the killer shot himself but the killer had enough time to shoot his way into the school, be confronted then kill the principal, then make his way into multiple class rooms killing 20 people along the way before turning the gun on himself. I read in this very thread that most of the people who pull killings like this usually turn the gun on and kill themselves once they hear sirens of approaching police. I really think having more police patroling and interacting with the community would reduce the carnage and possibly stop other events like this.

The shooter had a plan, he knew he would encounter no resistance for at least 3-5 minutes if not more. If you reduce the window nutjobs have to pull off their plan and make them account for the possiblity that the school might have an armed officer checking in at the time or being less than 90 seconds away I bet at the least the body count would be lower. Plus there is the ancillary benefit of other types of crime or confrontations being reduced.

Every year we hear about a police force being reduced or in financial trouble. I would pay more tax to increase our police presences so I can feel safe going to a movie or dropping off my kids at school or even driving late at night and not worrying about drunk drivers.

No one who has guns are going to give them up, if you want to pretend it is still 1776 and you want to hunt and eat what you kill or you think that the movie Red Dawn will come true or the Zombie Apocalypse will happen and you feel safer having a gun then fine. Keep it locked up and away from where kids, criminals, or mentally ill can find it. Make it harder to get a gun, document who comes into the store and inquires about buying a gun and report anyone who leaves because they can't get a gun before the waiting period. If it is true that the shooter walked into a gun store, wanted to buy a gun then left because he had to wait for it then shame on us.

In the meantime put more trained professionals on beats that take them into schools, malls, libraries, business parks, anywhere there are large amounts of people going about their lives. Let criminals and killers see our sworn protection out in places they haven't seen them before and maybe they will think twice about wrecking havoc on innocents.

I volunteer every week at my daughters school in the computer lab, making it harder for me to get in and help is not solving anything when there are nut jobs willing to shoot their way into a building. Increase the police presence and allow them to interact positively with the public and maybe our kids and their kids will have a chance to live their lives and learn in an environment that id less fortress and more fun, caring and nurturing.