Likelihood of 2012 as hottest CONUS year ever is at 99.99999999%

[W*GS]

http://www.climatecentral.org/images/uploads/news/12-13-12-CC-Annual-Average-Temp-lineschart-final.jpg

Book It: 2012, The Hottest U.S. Year on Record (http://www.climatecentral.org/news/book-it-2012-the-hottest-year-on-record-15350)

[cutthemdown]

So your saying we are paying more for energy so we can go green and its not even helping? Imagine that. Geoengineering is the only solution.

[W*GS]

So your saying we are paying more for energy so we can go green and its not even helping? Imagine that.

Are we paying more for energy?

Are we serious about renewables? No.

Geoengineering is the only solution.

Which of the different approaches to geoengineering do you favor? What problems does geoengineering not solve? How do you propose to address those?

[cutthemdown]

The most exciting way IMO is using nano sized disks which would be made of a reflective material that breaks down over time, or vaporizes etc. The volcano method of injecting sulfer IMO seems like a neanderthal way of going about it. IMO that phenomanon was only the key to showing us that upper stratosphere particles can have a cooling effect.

The point isn't that i know all that WIGSS, I don't. The point is environmentalists care more about how its done, then getting it done. They don't want to hear we could make strides and not have to give up our energy demands.

As to what kind of cooling? I admit I don't know the different types you want to discuss. Maybe geoengineering isnt a fixall, but a cooler earth would realistically lead to cooler poles, more ice, cooler oceans. I know you have more school when it comes to this stuff but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of scientists pushing geoengineering as a piece of this solution. Its just my opinion that the world wont be reducing co2 anytime in my lifetime.

[Rohirrim]

I hope we come together as a species and do something about this. The world's coral reefs are dying. Now it appears that we might lose the Sequoia and Redwoods.

We are not a very intelligent species.

[houghtam]

I hope we come together as a species and do something about this. The world's coral reefs are dying. Now it appears that we might lose the Sequoia and Redwoods.

We are not a very intelligent species.

Hey, we got a lot of money and guns, though.

So that's pretty awesome.

[cutthemdown]

So since co2 reduction not working what do you want to do?

[W*GS]

So since co2 reduction not working what do you want to do?

Since CO2 isn't decreasing, how can you say that CO2 reduction is a failure?

[cutthemdown]

Since CO2 isn't decreasing, how can you say that CO2 reduction is a failure?

because you can't show may any information that says the world will be able to produce less co2 anytime soon. We may be able to go further in debt pushing more expensive energy production but you won't get China, India, Indonesia, Brazil to play along because they are still in the developing stage. But all the models show the Earths co2 going up so in the meantime what do yo suggest. And if nothing else then i don't see overall co2 production dropping while the world keeps growing.

[W*GS]

because you can't show may any information that says the world will be able to produce less co2 anytime soon. We may be able to go further in debt pushing more expensive energy production but you won't get China, India, Indonesia, Brazil to play along because they are still in the developing stage. But all the models show the Earths co2 going up so in the meantime what do yo suggest. And if nothing else then i don't see overall co2 production dropping while the world keeps growing.

That others aren't doing the Right Thing is no excuse for us not to do so.

[cutthemdown]

how could spending a ton on energy, letting is drag our economy down, losing out to countries like China be the right thing? You are saying even though our co2 reduction won't help the overall co2 amounts and won't cool the earth we should do it anyways?

[W*GS]

how could spending a ton on energy, letting is drag our economy down, losing out to countries like China be the right thing? You are saying even though our co2 reduction won't help the overall co2 amounts and won't cool the earth we should do it anyways?

Sigh.

Never mind.

[cutthemdown]

geoengineering is the best chance to actually cool the temps. Co2 will be rising for the next 20 yrs at least.

[houghtam]

how could spending a ton on energy, letting is drag our economy down, losing out to countries like China be the right thing? You are saying even though our co2 reduction won't help the overall co2 amounts and won't cool the earth we should do it anyways?

Weren't you the one who wanted to buy Chinese solar panels?

Make up your mind.

[cutthemdown]

I'm not against solar. If we didn't do the tarriffs we could have at least had cheap panels that would maybe make it payoff to install them. I'm just pro fossil fuel, not anti solar. Even with all Obamas protections, tarrffs, the domestic based solar panels aren't doing really well.

[houghtam]

I'm not against solar. If we didn't do the tarriffs we could have at least had cheap panels that would maybe make it payoff to install them. I'm just pro fossil fuel, not anti solar. Even with all Obamas protections, tarrffs, the domestic based solar panels aren't doing really well.

So "losing out to China" is okay with you, then.

Then stop bringing it up like it's a bad thing. Unless of course you're not okay with it, in which case, stop advocating buying solar panels from China.

Just choose a stance, one way or the other.

[orinjkrush]

its correlated with the fiscal cliff.

and gun sales.

and Obamacare costs.

and the price of gold.

and West Bank settlements.

and the large hadron supercollider.

and Apple stock.

go figure.

[cutthemdown]

So "losing out to China" is okay with you, then.

Then stop bringing it up like it's a bad thing. Unless of course you're not okay with it, in which case, stop advocating buying solar panels from China.

Just choose a stance, one way or the other.

Actually I see it different. Of course i don't want to lose to China. But you have to pick your battles carefully. If China wants to sell panels so cheap they make no profit we should oblige them by buying them. We get jobs installing them and maybe save money using the electricity. Instead Obama tried to compete buy saying we are going to be a manufactuer of panels. An industry that can't seem to even sell them at a profit without govt money. We should have let China waste their money selling them cheap in the USA. Its not a smart investment for them.

[houghtam]

Actually I see it different. Of course i don't want to lose to China. But you have to pick your battles carefully. If China wants to sell panels so cheap they make no profit we should oblige them by buying them. We get jobs installing them and maybe save money using the electricity. Instead Obama tried to compete buy saying we are going to be a manufactuer of panels. An industry that can't seem to even sell them at a profit without govt money. We should have let China waste their money selling them cheap in the USA. Its not a smart investment for them.

If they made no profit on them, they wouldn't sell them. It's not like buying a car where they make no money on the car but make up for it by selling you floor mats.

They may make less money than on other things, but they're still making a profit, and they're likely making a ton of money (or laying the groundwork to do so) by mass-producing something that is now or will soon be in large demand. They do this with shoes, clothing, toys, electronics, building materials...pretty much everything they export. I'm assuming your laughing at how stupid they are for selling all those items at such a low profit margin, as well?

The Chinese are not stupid. They realize that oil and coal will not be around forever, which is why, although they are among the world's largest consumers of fossil fuels, they are also investing much more than most in renewable energy.

[cutthemdown]

If they made no profit on them, they wouldn't sell them. It's not like buying a car where they make no money on the car but make up for it by selling you floor mats.

They may make less money than on other things, but they're still making a profit, and they're likely making a ton of money (or laying the groundwork to do so) by mass-producing something that is now or will soon be in large demand. They do this with shoes, clothing, toys, electronics, building materials...pretty much everything they export. I'm assuming your laughing at how stupid they are for selling all those items at such a low profit margin, as well?

The Chinese are not stupid. They realize that oil and coal will not be around forever, which is why, although they are among the world's largest consumers of fossil fuels, they are also investing much more than most in renewable energy.

Read up on the assertation made by Obama to warrant the tarrif. The charge was they were unlaoding panels cheaper then cost in an effort to drive American makers, and Canadian makers out of the market. Whats funny is they drove them out anyways.

[cutthemdown]

Since Houghtan i know you would want to be informed.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323894704578105123838714546.html

The U.S. government has been collecting the tariffs on a provisional basis since March, based on a finding that Chinese producers with state backing were selling at prices below production costs in order to drive U.S. competitors out of business.



Also it didn't work. China shifted a lot of final production to Canada I heard to move around the tarrif.

Its bad business to sell them cheaper then it costs to make them. Let China expoit workers and do that. It won't work out for them. We should let them sell them as cheap as possible and just not get into the solar game unless its profitable.

Meanwhile burn coal and natural gas, install cheap solar panels, anything that is economically viable because that is how we will beat China. Trade wars never work.