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View Full Version : Denver has number 2 scoring offense, number 4 scoring defense


Kaylore
12-11-2012, 09:21 AM
I prefer to look at these stats after all the games have been played in a week *cough*Baja*cough*

Scoring > yardage because points count and yards don't.

Us and the Colts are the only teams with a winning record who are in the negative in turnover differential.

FYI After that beat down last night. NE's number 1 scoring offense is almost ten points ahead of us, and they now have the number 11 scoring defense and still lead the league in turnovers.

g6matty
12-11-2012, 09:32 AM
Lonestar will be here to point out the weak schedule and the amount of points scored on us againt texans pats and atl. Then tell us we're a year or two away from the superbowl.

CEH
12-11-2012, 09:39 AM
Point differiantial is another quality stat. Takes into account how both sides of the ball compliment each other. I think Denver is #3 right now at 9.1
NE is just crazy at 15.1 followed by SF at 10.1

Next week SF at NE will be interesting.

Inkana7
12-11-2012, 09:43 AM
Was just looking at some stats. NE has a pretty middling defense, but have forced 31 fumbles, recovering 19, which is 2 more recoveries than we have FFs, and we're at the top of the NFL in FFs. Just one of those years when an average defense becomes elite because they can force turnovers.

pricejj
12-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Sounds good, but none of the stats probably matter anymore after 5 days, when the Broncos playoff seeding is basically set.

After that, it comes down to execution, and if the Broncos can begin to play 'perfect' games in the playoffs on the road in order to reach the Superbowl.

It's a tall order, and nearly impossible, but a fate that the Broncos had to know they were going to perpetually face, ever since they were blown out in the playoffs last year.

bronco_diesel
12-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Lonestar will be here to point out the weak schedule and the amount of points scored on us againt texans pats and atl. Then tell us we're a year or two away from the superbowl.

Thank you for being here to tell us what Lonestar will probably say.

pricejj
12-11-2012, 10:05 AM
Was just looking at some stats. NE has a pretty middling defense, but have forced 31 fumbles, recovering 19, which is 2 more recoveries than we have FFs, and we're at the top of the NFL in FFs. Just one of those years when an average defense becomes elite because they can force turnovers.

Belicheat coaches them to force fumbles, because the law of averages determines that the more fumbles you force, the more you recover. The more fumbles you recover, the more you win.

Jetmeck
12-11-2012, 10:21 AM
Thank you for being here to tell us what Lonestar will probably say.


Cold reality is tough for some to take.

If last night and the NE game earlier didn't enlighten your ass nothing will.

It will take a perfect game to win in NE.............

Tombstone RJ
12-11-2012, 10:22 AM
Belicheat coaches them to force fumbles, because the law of averages determines that the more fumbles you force, the more you recover. The more fumbles you recover, the more you win.

Doesn't every team coach the defense to strip the ball or cause a fumble whenever possible? Pretty sure that's football 101. Conversely, ever team teaches/coaches and practices holding onto the ball when on offense, or ball security.

bronco_diesel
12-11-2012, 10:24 AM
Cold reality is tough for some to take.

If last night and the NE game earlier didn't enlighten your ass nothing will.

It will take a perfect game to win in NE.............

Of course I realize that...It would be the playoffs and in NE. Not that hard to figure out, but thanks.

Tombstone RJ
12-11-2012, 10:24 AM
Cold reality is tough for some to take.

If last night and the NE game earlier didn't enlighten your ass nothing will.

It will take a perfect game to win in NE.............

oh, the wisdom of the omane. This, this is why I come here. Yes, it's for enlightening wisdom like the above post. "Cold reality", please give me another gatorade dumping of some of your brilliant insight. :yayaya:

CEH
12-11-2012, 10:32 AM
NE defense reminds me of the Broncos D in 2005. They created a ton of turnovers int he season and their playoff game against Brady. When the defense failed to generate a turnover against Pittsburgh they were mauled on 3rd down

I could see NE defense suffer the same fate. Don't turn the ball over and play NE straight up

Last night that bogus PI really took the momentum from HOUS and placed it right back on NE . Really a turnover as it allowed NE to continue a drive

pricejj
12-11-2012, 10:44 AM
Last night that bogus PI really took the momentum from HOUS and placed it right back on NE . Really a turnover as it allowed NE to continue a drive

There were several penalties that sustained drives for NE. That is something that every visiting team has been facing in Foxborough since Belicheat became coach, and something Denver will likely face too.

This weekend is the Broncos last chance to practice perfection on the road.

All other road games the remainder of the season will be DO or DIE.

Kaylore
12-11-2012, 11:00 AM
This weekend is the Broncos last chance to practice perfection on the road.

All other road games the remainder of the season will be DO or DIE.

Are you saying this because it's our last road game until the playoffs?

pricejj
12-11-2012, 11:01 AM
Doesn't every team coach the defense to strip the ball or cause a fumble whenever possible?

No, they don't. Some teams obviously devote more practice time to it than others. The Patriots practice it, and study film about how to force and recover fumbles, everyday single day at practice.

http://www.csnchicago.com/11/30/12/Forcing-fumbles-something-Patriots-pract/new_landing_cubs.html?blockID=808177&tagID=9226

The Broncos don't do that.


When Shanahan was coaching the Broncos during the Superbowl years, the Defense was supposed to try to strip the ball from fellow Broncos Offensive players during plays (in practice), after plays, walking back to the huddle, and in the locker room.

Kaylore
12-11-2012, 11:06 AM
No, they don't. Some teams obviously devote more practice time to it than others. The Patriots practice it, and study film about how to force and recover fumbles, everyday single day at practice.

http://www.csnchicago.com/11/30/12/Forcing-fumbles-something-Patriots-pract/new_landing_cubs.html?blockID=808177&tagID=9226

The Broncos don't do that.

Yes they do. In fact it was one of the few things they worked on specifically last week for the Raider game. You don't get toward the top of the league in any stat in any pro sport without working on it.

baja
12-11-2012, 11:18 AM
The biggest mis match between the Broncos and the Patriots is coaching. Belichick and yes McDaniels are the best in the business while Fox and Company are above average with JDR & Manning making them top five. Trouble is Belichick & McD will find your weakness and game plan something innovative to take advantage of it. That is why they consistently score early in their games. Figure what they are doing early (before half time) and we can beat them.

Tombstone RJ
12-11-2012, 12:12 PM
No, they don't. Some teams obviously devote more practice time to it than others. The Patriots practice it, and study film about how to force and recover fumbles, everyday single day at practice.

http://www.csnchicago.com/11/30/12/Forcing-fumbles-something-Patriots-pract/new_landing_cubs.html?blockID=808177&tagID=9226

The Broncos don't do that.


When Shanahan was coaching the Broncos during the Superbowl years, the Defense was supposed to try to strip the ball from fellow Broncos Offensive players during plays (in practice), after plays, walking back to the huddle, and in the locker room.

Ok, so it was just teams I played on in pee-fuggen-wee football that coached this. Got it, thanks!

pricejj
12-11-2012, 01:08 PM
Ok, so it was just teams I played on in pee-fuggen-wee football that coached this. Got it, thanks!

Let me get this straight. You think all NFL teams dedicate the same exact amount of practice time and resources to forcing fumbles, and the Patriots are just "lucky"?

Even you could agree that your claim is not competitively nor mathematically possible. The same as it's not possible for every team to spend the same exact amount of time in redzone situations, or defending the hurry-up run game.

IAOFM.com claims that recovering fumbles is pure dumb luck, I contend that it's not. If it was, the story would not have came out that the Broncos began to practice "scooping" fumbles before the Raider game (no reason to practice if it's pure dumb luck right?).

Likewise, forcing fumbles, is also not just pure dumb luck, otherwise teams would not practice forcing fumbles. Belicheat plays the law of averages (that's why he defers kickoffs at the start of games), and that's why he devotes so much practice time to forcing fumbles.

Kaylore
12-11-2012, 01:14 PM
Forcing fumbles isn't luck. Recovering them has been show to be so.

sinuous sausage
12-11-2012, 01:28 PM
I'd say recovering fumbles only seems like luck, as it's past the capacity of the human mind to calculate all the forces in play when a ball is knocked loose. In theory, all the physical data is ascertainable. Von Miller might be a defensive demigod but I don't think even he could process all the data (angle and force of blow, orientation and strength of ballcarrier, field conditions, etc.) necessary to determine the ball's location at a certain instant in time.

sinuous sausage
12-11-2012, 01:29 PM
then there's the metaphysical aspect to account for. that's where people like the Teebs come in

rugbythug
12-11-2012, 01:51 PM
Let me get this straight. You think all NFL teams dedicate the same exact amount of practice time and resources to forcing fumbles, and the Patriots are just "lucky"?

Even you could agree that your claim is not competitively nor mathematically possible. The same as it's not possible for every team to spend the same exact amount of time in redzone situations, or defending the hurry-up run game.

IAOFM.com claims that recovering fumbles is pure dumb luck, I contend that it's not. If it was, the story would not have came out that the Broncos began to practice "scooping" fumbles before the Raider game (no reason to practice if it's pure dumb luck right?).

Likewise, forcing fumbles, is also not just pure dumb luck, otherwise teams would not practice forcing fumbles. Belicheat plays the law of averages (that's why he defers kickoffs at the start of games), and that's why he devotes so much practice time to forcing fumbles.



And if next year this falls to league avg has he stopped coaching it?

Tombstone RJ
12-11-2012, 01:54 PM
Let me get this straight. You think all NFL teams dedicate the same exact amount of practice time and resources to forcing fumbles, and the Patriots are just "lucky"?

Even you could agree that your claim is not competitively nor mathematically possible. The same as it's not possible for every team to spend the same exact amount of time in redzone situations, or defending the hurry-up run game.

IAOFM.com claims that recovering fumbles is pure dumb luck, I contend that it's not. If it was, the story would not have came out that the Broncos began to practice "scooping" fumbles before the Raider game (no reason to practice if it's pure dumb luck right?).

Likewise, forcing fumbles, is also not just pure dumb luck, otherwise teams would not practice forcing fumbles. Belicheat plays the law of averages (that's why he defers kickoffs at the start of games), and that's why he devotes so much practice time to forcing fumbles.

What I'm saying is that coaching up defensive players to strip the ball is common practice, that is, every team coaches this stuff in one way or another. If Bellichick devotes more time to this than other teams ok fine. Is Bellichick coaching a strip technique that no one else knows about? I doubt it. As Kaylor said, forcing fumbles is not dumb luck and yes, some teams are better at it than others. However recovering said fumble is another issue dependent on random factors.

ZONA
12-11-2012, 02:21 PM
There were several penalties that sustained drives for NE. That is something that every visiting team has been facing in Foxborough since Belicheat became coach, and something Denver will likely face too.

This weekend is the Broncos last chance to practice perfection on the road.

All other road games the remainder of the season will be DO or DIE.

That PI probably should not have been called but how stupid was that defender? That was NOT going to be a completion and he has good position and he runs in front of the defender cutting him off. What a dumb ass.

pricejj
12-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Forcing fumbles isn't luck. Recovering them has been show to be so.

Whether or not recovering fumbles is pure dumb luck, or not, the more fumbles you force, the more you will recover (which is why the Patriots practice it so much).

And if next year this falls to league avg has he stopped coaching it?

If doing a certain activity (like practicing forcing fumbles for x amount of time), is proven to help you win games...then why would you stop doing it?

It could be that the rest of the league practices ball security more leading up to games against the Patriots...equalling out the advantage that Belicheat would have gained...which is when he will start spending more time practicing other ways to beat you, and less time practicing forcing fumbles. It's all about opportunity costs, and the law of decreasing marginal returns. Some of it is based on your opponent (and their preparation), and some of it isn't.

lonestar
12-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Thank you for being here to tell us what Lonestar will probably say.

He Seems a bit OCD to me.

Agamemnon
12-11-2012, 04:35 PM
Was just looking at some stats. NE has a pretty middling defense, but have forced 31 fumbles, recovering 19, which is 2 more recoveries than we have FFs, and we're at the top of the NFL in FFs. Just one of those years when an average defense becomes elite because they can force turnovers.

What's weird is I never see them really doing anything that actually "forces" turnovers. At least no more than other teams. The way teams turnover the ball against them is really hard for me to understand. I'm tempted to call it luck.

Agamemnon
12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
Forcing fumbles isn't luck. Recovering them has been show to be so.

Outside of actual strips or hard hits that pop the ball out, I'm hard-pressed to agree with you on this. If an opposing back or receiver isn't practicing good ball security and a routine tackle causes a fumble, your defense lucked out. If a QB laterals the ball like **** and you are able to jump on the loose ball, your defense lucked out. A lot of fumbles aren't really "forced", let's be honest. They're just the offense ****ing up.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Outside of actual strips or hard hits that pop the ball out, I'm hard-pressed to agree with you on this. If an opposing back or receiver isn't practicing good ball security and a routine tackle causes a fumble, your defense lucked out. If a QB laterals the ball like **** and you are able to jump on the loose ball, your defense lucked out. A lot of fumbles aren't really "forced", let's be honest. They're just the offense ****ing up.

I tend to agree, but the Pats seem to always do it, year after year, so there might be something to it. What always annoys me is how teams never seem to bring their A-game against them. And im not talking about getting their ass kicked, im talking about dropping passes, missing wide open guys. Hell, even McGahee dropped that wide open 4th and 1 against them

lonestar
12-11-2012, 06:10 PM
I tend to agree, but the Pats seem to always do it, year after year, so there might be something to it. What always annoys me is how teams never seem to bring their A-game against them. And im not talking about getting their ass kicked, im talking about dropping passes, missing wide open guys. Hell, even McGahee dropped that wide open 4th and 1 against them

I would beleive that since they are the team to beat more pressure is on NOT to make mistakes.

The more the veteran team, with constants in the front office, (the same coaching staff for more than a year) the better the odds of coaching more advanced principles than the basics most of this year year for us has been.

While hanging on to the seems basic, loads more pressure to do so, means trying to hard sometimes.

Whereas the Pats have been doing it for going on a decade with only the very newbies with butter fingers. Even then it is not a new scheme AGAIN this year for everyone.

cutthemdown
12-11-2012, 06:29 PM
Teams that hustle get more fumbe recoveries. Pats always are running after the play, they hustle, they get recoveries.

Then the flip side is luck also plays into it.

Hamrob
12-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Denver's 8 game winning streak:

1. Chargers
2. Saints
3. Bengals
4. Panthers
5. Chargers
6. Chiefs
7. Bucs
8. Raiders

Other wins:

1. Oak
2. Pitt

Losess:

1. Texans
2. Falcons
3. Pats

Exactly how many Playoff caliber teams have we faced...and how many of those teams have we beat???

Look, stats are stats....but, I wouldn't put much into our rankings until we start playing playoff teams.

Shoemaker
12-11-2012, 08:37 PM
Denver's 8 game winning streak:

1. Chargers
2. Saints
3. Bengals
4. Panthers
5. Chargers
6. Chiefs
7. Bucs
8. Raiders

Other wins:

1. Oak
2. Pitt

Losess:

1. Texans
2. Falcons
3. Pats

Exactly how many Playoff caliber teams have we faced...and how many of those teams have we beat???

Look, stats are stats....but, I wouldn't put much into our rankings until we start playing playoff teams.

We lost to the Falcons and the Texans by six points each in Peyton's first three games with the team (and it took him throwing 3 picks in the one quarter for us to lose to the Falcons), and I think everybody would agree that this team has only gotten better since then.

One of the wild cards is almost certainly going to the Steelers or the Bengals, and we beat both of them.

The only two teams to beat the Falcons this year are the Saints and the Panthers, and we dominated both of them. Plus, the Buccaneers have been in contention for a playoff spot for most of the season until recently, so they're playoff-caliber.

I dislike the argument that we haven't beaten anybody. The Patriots lost to Seattle, Baltimore, and Arizona(!) and were this close to losing to Buffalo and the Jets, it's not like their schedule has been a gauntlet either.

footstepsfrom#27
12-12-2012, 09:26 AM
I prefer to look at these stats after all the games have been played in a week *cough*Baja*cough*

Scoring > yardage because points count and yards don't.
Total yardage is an overrated stat but an underated one is something I've never seen the NFL chart at all...that's how many yards did the offense gain as a percentage of total yards needed to score a TD on every possession. In other words, if you get the ball 10 times and the average field position is your own 30 yard line then there are 700 total yards available to gain if you scored a TD every time. How much of that total is gained is a significant stat while total yardage without that information can be missleading.

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-12-2012, 09:35 AM
I wouldn't put too much into that atl game. Manning just getting used to playing again, admitting he had road jitters? It showed with the forced TOs. And still almost pulled it out.

The team has to play turnover free football against great teams.

Kaylore
12-12-2012, 09:44 AM
Total yardage is an overrated stat but an underated one is something I've never seen the NFL chart at all...that's how many yards did the offense gain as a percentage of total yards needed to score a TD on every possession. In other words, if you get the ball 10 times and the average field position is your own 30 yard line then there are 700 total yards available to gain if you scored a TD every time. How much of that total is gained is a significant stat while total yardage without that information can be missleading.

That's actually a great point. If someone scores a couple TD's when they got their ball back on a defensive turnover on their opponent's 20, it's not the same as the long drive from your own five. Manning has had both this year. They could flip it the other way to and grade a defense higher for stopping a team from a TD when their offense fumbled the ball in their own redzone.

footstepsfrom#27
12-12-2012, 10:00 AM
That's actually a great point. If someone scores a couple TD's when they got their ball back on a defensive turnover on their opponent's 20, it's not the same as the long drive from your own five. Manning has had both this year. They could flip it the other way to and grade a defense higher for stopping a team from a TD when their offense fumbled the ball in their own redzone.
This is why special teams as the forgotten third leg of a complete team are an under appreciated part of the game. It's a game of field position more than anything.

CEH
12-12-2012, 10:26 AM
I believe Denver's Red Zone offense and defense is only middle of the pack with the offense scoring a RZ TD every 56%. That number need to be higher come playoff time. last 3 games Denver is only at 40 %.

Bacchus
12-12-2012, 04:18 PM
NE defense reminds me of the Broncos D in 2005. They created a ton of turnovers int he season and their playoff game against Brady. When the defense failed to generate a turnover against Pittsburgh they were mauled on 3rd down

I could see NE defense suffer the same fate. Don't turn the ball over and play NE straight up

Last night that bogus PI really took the momentum from HOUS and placed it right back on NE . Really a turnover as it allowed NE to continue a drive

If Denver does not turn the ball over or wins the turnover battle they will win the SB.