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View Full Version : Two turnover blown calls?


Archie
12-06-2012, 09:05 PM
So - I'm wondering if two key turnovers were blown calls.

The first is the pick on Manning where Adams, who intercepted it, lands at the 1/2 yard line and slides into the endzone. The ball was placed at the Raiders 20. I believe the ball should have been placed at the 1/2 yard line. You only get the touchback if the turnover possession occurs in the endzone. But the possession occurs at the 1/2 hard line.

The second was the Palmer fumble on the Von Miller sack. Looking at it again in the replays after the game it looks a bit like a "tuck rule" situation to me. He's moved his hand forward and is bringing it back when hit and the ball hits a helmet and comes loose.

Of course I liked the 2nd blown call and was pissed about the 1st one. Thoughts on the proper application of the rules?

Requiem
12-06-2012, 09:06 PM
We won.

Mogulseeker
12-06-2012, 09:07 PM
#2 was a fumble...

#1 could be interpreted as a 1.2 yard line spot, but I could see that going either way because he was sliding as he came down.

I'm sure there are rule gurus on here that will correct me...

Hercules Rockefeller
12-06-2012, 09:08 PM
His momentum took him into the end zone, hence the touchback.

Vine
12-06-2012, 09:14 PM
His momentum took him into the end zone, hence the touchback.

He was touched at the 1 yard line. One angle showed this conclusively. Touched by a defender before momentum taking him into the end zone. This was a terrible miss opportunity by the Broncos to challenge this spot. 19 yards is HUGE when the difference is the 20 yard line or the 1 yard line.

Archie
12-06-2012, 09:32 PM
Ok, found it..... being touched by the opposing team (us in this case) is not relevant. This is from the NFL Rule Book.

Section 28 Safety
blah blah (we know it's not a safety, but after describing what is a safety it has this note on Momentum

Note: It is not a safety if a defensive player in the field of play intercepts a pass; catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his teams possession. Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered. (11-5-1 Exc. 2)

RhymesayersDU
12-06-2012, 09:34 PM
Speaking of blown calls, here's one that absolutely blew my mind. We were on defense, and we got a ton of pressure on Palmer. Champ ends up getting flagged for holding, but one of the interior defensive linemen definitely hit Palmer on the helmet, and no flag.

Obviously we caught a break, but I was shocked since stuff like that with the QB is such a point of emphasis.

Archie
12-06-2012, 09:39 PM
I think that was the first penalty of the game and was the Champ hold. I did expect them to ring us up when I saw Palmer's helmet off...

Vine
12-06-2012, 09:50 PM
Ok, found it..... being touched by the opposing team (us in this case) is not relevant. This is from the NFL Rule Book.

Section 28 Safety
blah blah (we know it's not a safety, but after describing what is a safety it has this note on Momentum

Note: It is not a safety if a defensive player in the field of play intercepts a pass; catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his teams possession. Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered. (11-5-1 Exc. 2)

So it was a blown call by the refs. A huge blown call that thankfully had no effect on the final result.

Jekyll15Hyde
12-06-2012, 10:18 PM
So it was a blown call by the refs. A huge blown call that thankfully had no effect on the final result.

No, its the momentum rule. Touchback is correct

Kaylore
12-06-2012, 10:25 PM
If they didn't account for momentum then every time that happened it would be a safety for the intercepting team, which makes no sense.

Fedaykin
12-06-2012, 10:32 PM
All turnovers are automatically reviewed, so there's no point in throwing a flag.

Prodigal19
12-06-2012, 10:45 PM
No, its the momentum rule. Touchback is correct

I think you missed this part of the momentum rule.

"Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered."

And to be honest the momentum rule is irrelevant since he was touched down in the field of play. At that point the play is dead. It doesnt matter if he continues to go into the endzone.

Fedaykin
12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
Speaking of blown calls, did we ever get an explanation why the endzone PI call against the Bucs was placed at the 6 yard line instead of the 1?

chadta
12-07-2012, 03:50 AM
Speaking of blown calls, here's one that absolutely blew my mind. We were on defense, and we got a ton of pressure on Palmer. Champ ends up getting flagged for holding, but one of the interior defensive linemen definitely hit Palmer on the helmet, and no flag.

Obviously we caught a break, but I was shocked since stuff like that with the QB is such a point of emphasis.

Thats what i thought the flag was for on that play too

Vine
12-07-2012, 05:25 AM
I think you missed this part of the momentum rule.

"Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered."

And to be honest the momentum rule is irrelevant since he was touched down in the field of play. At that point the play is dead. It doesnt matter if he continues to go into the endzone.

That is exactly what I was saying, but it seems some of us have reading comprehension issues in this forum.

WolfpackGuy
12-07-2012, 05:36 AM
That is exactly what I was saying, but it seems some of us have reading comprehension issues in this forum.

I also thought the receiver (Willis or Caldwell) touched him before he crossed the goalline.

I was surprised to see the ball spotted at the 20 after the commercial break.

enjolras
12-07-2012, 06:50 AM
Speaking of blown calls, did we ever get an explanation why the endzone PI call against the Bucs was placed at the 6 yard line instead of the 1?

For pass interference the ball is placed at the spot of initial contact (not where the ball ended up). They ruled (correctly I think) that contact occurred around the 6.

As a side note: When they talk about Champ being a "savvy vetaran corner", taking advantage of this is one of the things they're talking about. When Champ is beat withut safety help he'll interfere really early in the play. Usually it's a defensive hold (5 yards) or a much shorter interference play.

enjolras
12-07-2012, 06:57 AM
RE tuck rule: That wasn't a tuck rule situation since Palmer brought the ball back down after the pump fake and then re-established his throwing position.

gyldenlove
12-07-2012, 06:58 AM
So - I'm wondering if two key turnovers were blown calls.

The first is the pick on Manning where Adams, who intercepted it, lands at the 1/2 yard line and slides into the endzone. The ball was placed at the Raiders 20. I believe the ball should have been placed at the 1/2 yard line. You only get the touchback if the turnover possession occurs in the endzone. But the possession occurs at the 1/2 hard line.

The second was the Palmer fumble on the Von Miller sack. Looking at it again in the replays after the game it looks a bit like a "tuck rule" situation to me. He's moved his hand forward and is bringing it back when hit and the ball hits a helmet and comes loose.

Of course I liked the 2nd blown call and was pissed about the 1st one. Thoughts on the proper application of the rules?

The tuck rule only comes into play when the ball is not forced lose. If he had begun his forward throwing motion and then tucked it back and dropped it, it would be considered a forward pass - however since the ball came lose as a result of contact it is considered a fumble. The same is true if a QB goes to throw the ball, tucks it and the ball is swatted free - then it should be ruled a fumble.

Beantown Bronco
12-07-2012, 07:06 AM
The tuck rule only comes into play when the ball is not forced lose. If he had begun his forward throwing motion and then tucked it back and dropped it, it would be considered a forward pass - however since the ball came lose as a result of contact it is considered a fumble. The same is true if a QB goes to throw the ball, tucks it and the ball is swatted free - then it should be ruled a fumble.

Ummm, what? The original Brady tuck rule ruling stated the exact opposite. The ball came loose as a DIRECT result of the contact from the defender. He didn't just drop it on his own.

Goobzilla
12-07-2012, 07:59 AM
Virgil Green got tackled in the end zone on 1st and Goal at the 1. Elvis and Von were being held repeatedly No calls??? Crap field, crap refs, crap fans.

cmhargrove
12-07-2012, 08:42 AM
I just imagined Palmer screaming like a girl while he was being pinballed around on that play and coughed it up.

It puts me in my happy place....

cmhargrove
12-07-2012, 08:44 AM
Virgil Green got tackled in the end zone on 1st and Goal at the 1. Elvis and Von were being held repeatedly No calls??? Crap field, crap refs, crap fans.

Virgil was just nervous and blew that one. He did get tackled, but it was after his feet went all funny and failed to get separation. He is a bigger, better player than that, but his inexperience showed on that play.

crowebomber
12-07-2012, 08:44 AM
If they didn't account for momentum then every time that happened it would be a safety for the intercepting team, which makes no sense.

He was touched before he slid into the endzone so it would not have been a safety, he would have been down at the 1. This rule exists to avoid safeties as you said, but that wasn't the case here.

oubronco
12-07-2012, 09:37 AM
The tuck rule only applies to the Patriots.

FIFY

Archie
12-07-2012, 10:40 AM
On the fumble and how I see it in the replay, Palmer has pumped once and pulled it back then pumps again and "as he is pulling his hand back" he is hit and the ball contacts a helmet and comes free.

So... this raises a bigger issue. The NFL is "supposedly" reviewing all turnovers and scoring plays. Is the Replay Official's disinterest causing very key situations to be ignored since the interested team is effectively disallowed from requesting a review. By rule, if they do, there is no review. So they can only hope the disinterested person catches it in time.

Think back to the Holliday return TD against the Panthers where he tosses the ball before entering the end zone and the play should have been ruled a touchback. If the Panthers could have reviewed that, do you think they would have? Maybe a coach in the booth is screaming, he had to let it go early. But, they can't even ask. Instead they can only hope the disinterred individual in the booth happens to see something.

Maybe most of the time it's going to be glaring. But these are big plays that are not being caught.

LRtagger
12-07-2012, 01:17 PM
Palmer was holding the ball up while he was getting pinballed around and it hit his lineman's helmet and came loose. He wasn't trying to tuck it

Pick Six
12-07-2012, 01:24 PM
I thought the same way, on the interception. He was downed at the 1/2 yard line. I figured that the Raiders would start, from there...:kiddingme