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jerseyguy4
12-03-2012, 09:26 PM
It's one of the least exciting things to happen in a game. A simple 5 yards and no auto-first down. Rarely a game changer. But who else enjoys the shat out of these when Peyton catches other teams?!?

Having watched Manning his whole career, I will say...this is normal. In 2010 I had emailed the indystar and asked Mike Chappell if they kept stats on this penalty. He said they didn't. He looked and I looked, and we didn't find it anywhere. But at some point, someone needs to go back and dig up those numbers. Peyton holds a bucket full of records already, and no doubt holds this one also.

Guessing, I think he has at least 8 this season? Maybe 10? Anyone?
Again guessing, I think he has averaged about 1 per game over his last 3 seasons.
I love each of them. Its like a staple I wait for every game, disappointed if I don't get one. Fired up when I see two in one night.

DC's must know this is coming. Are they embarrassed when they get caught?

spdirty
12-03-2012, 09:31 PM
I use to hate it. Use to say it was chickenshlt football. Now I love it. :)

Kaylore
12-03-2012, 09:32 PM
If they aren't going to sub, why should they let the defense?

jerseyguy4
12-03-2012, 10:06 PM
It's also part of a bigger picture. He always has the offense lining up quickly. More important than 5 yard penalties is being ready and looking for weakness (be that 12 men on the field, a defender ready to blitz, or whatever). To be great you need an edge, and every advantage is a good one.

Ratboy
12-03-2012, 10:42 PM
If they aren't going to sub, why should they let the defense?

Anyone else catch Manning flipping **** when Moreno subbed out? ****ing hilarious.

His reaction was priceless.

s0phr0syne
12-04-2012, 10:03 AM
This is a total n00b question but it's something I haven't understood despite watching football for so long now:

Obviously, I understand the penalty for defense having 11+ players on the field AT THE SNAP. What I don't get it is when well in advance of the snap, there is a penalty for defense having too many on the field? In what circumstances is this illegal such that there is a penalty BEFORE THE SNAP? Broncos seem to have had this called against us a few times this season, and I don't think I get when the penalty is called at the snap versus whistling the play dead well in advance.

enjolras
12-04-2012, 10:12 AM
This is a total n00b question but it's something I haven't understood despite watching football for so long now:

Obviously, I understand the penalty for defense having 11+ players on the field AT THE SNAP. What I don't get it is when well in advance of the snap, there is a penalty for defense having too many on the field? In what circumstances is this illegal such that there is a penalty BEFORE THE SNAP? Broncos seem to have had this called against us a few times this season, and I don't think I get when the penalty is called at the snap versus whistling the play dead well in advance.

The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.

s0phr0syne
12-04-2012, 10:15 AM
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.


Thanks!

baja
12-04-2012, 10:23 AM
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.

In that 12 man play lat Sunday I thought the 12th man WAS running off the field

s0phr0syne
12-04-2012, 10:37 AM
The extra player(s) were running off the field, that's why PM rushed the snap, essentially knowing it would be a free play.

(of course it took a challenge to confirm this)

So it fell into what enjolras described as being the rule: if the players are aware that they are on the field and thus trying to get off of it, the refs wait and allow the play to occur. If the D has 11+ players and don't seem to be aware of it, instead just lined up in formation that way, then they whistle the play dead.

jerseyguy4
12-04-2012, 11:19 AM
The extra player(s) were running off the field, that's why PM rushed the snap, essentially knowing it would be a free play.

(of course it took a challenge to confirm this)

So it fell into what enjolras described as being the rule: if the players are aware that they are on the field and thus trying to get off of it, the refs wait and allow the play to occur. If the D has 11+ players and don't seem to be aware of it, instead just lined up in formation that way, then they whistle the play dead.

It is sort of like the difference between being lined in the neutral zone (not blown dead) and unabated to the QB (blown dead). I would guess the rule change was meant to protect the offense.

enjolras
12-04-2012, 01:03 PM
It is sort of like the difference between being lined in the neutral zone (not blown dead) and unabated to the QB (blown dead). I would guess the rule change was meant to protect the offense.

It was instituted after the superbowl last year. Late in the game the Giants had 12 men on defense and the Patriots ran a play. The play took quite awhile (8 seconds I think) and resulted in an incomplete pass. The argument was that the Giants had the luxury of an extra defender which made the play less likely to succeed, but still took a bunch of time off the clock.

So they changed it to a dead-ball foul so no time runs off unless the defender is running off because that gives the offense an advantage (a free play with 11-on-11).

Orange_Beard
12-04-2012, 03:16 PM
I use to hate it. Use to say it was chickenshlt football. Now I love it. :)

Agree 100%

baja
12-04-2012, 03:28 PM
Agree 100%


Ya Manning is even a lot better looking than he used to be and all of a sudden I like his commercials and his head doesn't seen as big.... well maybe not that.

Mogulseeker
12-04-2012, 03:31 PM
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.

There's a 12 men in the huddle penalty, too, no?

enjolras
12-04-2012, 03:38 PM
There's a 12 men in the huddle penalty, too, no?

I believe that is an offensive penalty (I'm not aware of any rules that recognize a defensive huddle).

Mediator12
12-04-2012, 03:46 PM
I believe that is an offensive penalty (I'm not aware of any rules that recognize a defensive huddle).

That is correct. 12 men in the huddle does not allow the defense time to substitute properly, even after one runs off....

The Joker
12-04-2012, 04:16 PM
I don't like it personally, but I won't complain too much as it's helping us!

However, I would have thought that if you are going to do it you'd be better off launching a deep pass down the field and hoping for a long completion/defensive PI.

If it's a free play you may as well try and go for a big gain knowing that any INT will be coming back. Maybe there wasn't enough time to communicate that to a WR?

That One Guy
12-04-2012, 04:23 PM
I don't like it personally, but I won't complain too much as it's helping us!

However, I would have thought that if you are going to do it you'd be better off launching a deep pass down the field and hoping for a long completion/defensive PI.

If it's a free play you may as well try and go for a big gain knowing that any INT will be coming back. Maybe there wasn't enough time to communicate that to a WR?

This x 1 gazillion.

I've been ranting about this plenty but to intentionally run a crappy play just for the sake of getting 5 easy yards is silly when you consider that the ref has to catch it. There's been at least twice that we've had to burn timeouts because he wanted the cheap yards and, in doing so, he was unable to call a successful play in the haste.

Someone made the argument that challenges aren't what they used to be and that's a very valid point but, still, I'd rather they earn the yards (or at least try to) rather than keep letting this attempt to be slick blow up in their faces. The time we have no challenge will be the time it really makes a difference.

enjolras
12-04-2012, 07:01 PM
I don't like it personally, but I won't complain too much as it's helping us!

However, I would have thought that if you are going to do it you'd be better off launching a deep pass down the field and hoping for a long completion/defensive PI.

If it's a free play you may as well try and go for a big gain knowing that any INT will be coming back. Maybe there wasn't enough time to communicate that to a WR?

I think the bigger issue is that there is no time to call a protection. The idea is to just snap the ball, get your penalty, and don't risk Peyton getting steamrolled because you didn't have an protection in place.

jerseyguy4
12-04-2012, 07:05 PM
...I'd rather they earn the yards (or at least try to) rather than keep letting this attempt to be slick blow up in their faces. The time we have no challenge will be the time it really makes a difference.
It's not often a challenge or a timeout is involved in getting the 5 yarder. These were exceptions, not the norm.

The point isn't to be slick. They're lining up fast anyway. If they're lined up and the opportunity presents itself, they may as well take advantage

Fedaykin
12-04-2012, 07:17 PM
On the one hand it seems like a b**** move; on the other hand the defense subbing could be used as a tactic to slow down the hurry up offense so might as well make 'em jump.

That One Guy
12-04-2012, 08:26 PM
It's not often a challenge or a timeout is involved in getting the 5 yarder. These were exceptions, not the norm.

The point isn't to be slick. They're lining up fast anyway. If they're lined up and the opportunity presents itself, they may as well take advantage

Those instances where a challenge was burnt particularly stand out to me so I can't say the numbers of times it's happened (oh, and I've not had a lot of games on local TV) so you may be right that it was minimal. It just didn't seem like it to me.

That said, my biggest concern is just that the plays aren't run in a way that really allows any major benefit aside from the 5 yard gain. If you watch Rodgers in GB when he gets someone offsides, you can bet money that it's gonna be thrown 40 yards downfield. Every. Single. Time. If the team (Read: Peyton) were to institute a rule where this scenario instantly meant Hail Mary or something, I'd be all for it. They'd just have to announce it fast and execute in a way Peyton doesn't get destroyed.

I just don't like risking killing a drive if the refs don't catch it or if somehow the guy gets off the field because the plays I've seen it attempted with were generally basic run up the gut plays that this team just can't turn into much.

That One Guy
12-04-2012, 08:27 PM
On the one hand it seems like a b**** move; on the other hand the defense subbing could be used as a tactic to slow down the hurry up offense so might as well make 'em jump.

That's a good point. Peyton could be using it just to deter them from subbing because they'll be paranoid.