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View Full Version : Ok, so let's analyze this one


cmhargrove
12-03-2012, 10:47 AM
Some people aren't as interested in this as me (I understand). However the Schiano kneel down antics deserve a little analysis. I found this sped up "three stooges version" of the kneel down play. It's kind of ineresting to analyze.

It looks like we did game plan for this (as we should have), but it also doesn't look like Tampa Bay has the right strategy. I would be going for the ball/snapping arm, but it looks like their theory is to knock the Center back into the QB.

Anyone ever seen this type of play work, even in college? It just looks like they were trying to be "punitive" rather than really getting a good shot at a turnover. Maybe, by having both our Guards dive in we just took the play away. Anyway, thought it was worth a look or three.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1820965/bucsportsmanship.gif

Requiem
12-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Those guys are losers for doing it.

Rohirrim
12-03-2012, 10:53 AM
No class organization and coach.

55CrushEm
12-03-2012, 10:55 AM
We should have returned the lack of class by having DT flare out to the left....Peyton lob him a short pass....then see DT easily take it to the house for a score.

pricejj
12-03-2012, 10:57 AM
I love how we basically laid out half their squad both times they tried it. Like, "Go ahead, do it. You will be throat punched to the ground."

edog24
12-03-2012, 10:58 AM
I don't get it. If they want to be pricks then just can the center during the game and get a scrum going.

Doing at the end of the game is just cowardly and it's obviously the coach who is pushing this. It's only a matter of time before their lineman start getting chopped and speared by other teams.

canadianbroncosfan
12-03-2012, 11:00 AM
No class organization and coach.

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bucs/article1228005.ece

I wouldn't say "No class"

cmhargrove
12-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Another thing I noticed. Their two edge players 29 and 31 either couldn't find the ball if it were stuffed up their ass, or they were just looking for a fight to begin with. How does neither one of those guys even look at Peyton standing there with the ball?

Douches.

pricejj
12-03-2012, 11:01 AM
Knowshon and Gronk pushed all their LB's onto their backs...with Deebo threatening to rip the facemask off of anyone who tried to start crap.

pricejj
12-03-2012, 11:03 AM
Another thing I noticed. Their two edge players 29 and 31 either couldn't find the ball if it were stuffed up their ass, or they were just looking for a fight to begin with. How does neither one of those guys even look at Peyton standing there with the ball?

Douches.

Those ****ers knew if they touched Manning, they would be dismembered and drug through the streets of Denver.

enjolras
12-03-2012, 11:05 AM
I can't be the only one who has absolutely no problem with this. It very nearly worked against the Giants and it gives them at least a shot to win the game. It ain't over until the clock hits zero after all. I never understood why you just have to accept the outcome when the other team takes a knee.

Bronco Boy
12-03-2012, 11:06 AM
They were trying to win the game. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2012, 11:09 AM
They were trying to win the game. I don't see anything wrong with it.

If that were only true.

As was already mentioned, if you watched half of their guys, they're really not attempting to go for the ball or strip it away. They're just flailing around, some with their backs to the actual play or nowhere near where the ball would even be. It's just stupid execution.

gyldenlove
12-03-2012, 11:09 AM
I would try a fake kneel down to see if I could get a cheap TD if they did it more than once.

Bronco Boy
12-03-2012, 11:10 AM
If that were only true.

As was already mentioned, if you watched half of their guys, they're really not attempting to go for the ball or strip it away. They're just flailing around, some with their backs to the actual play or nowhere near where the ball would even be. It's just stupid execution.

I don't think execution is the discussion here.

Chris
12-03-2012, 11:11 AM
They were trying to win the game. I don't see anything wrong with it.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Dg7sPOdVN4k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 11:11 AM
I can't be the only one who has absolutely no problem with this. It very nearly worked against the Giants and it gives them at least a shot to win the game. It ain't over until the clock hits zero after all. I never understood why you just have to accept the outcome when the other team takes a knee.

It almost worked against the Giants because no one had tried it before. It won't work anymore because teams will be like the Broncos and ready for it - so it now accomplishes nothing. I don't wish injury on anyone, but I'd tell my OL to just fire at the DL's knees on these plays.

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-03-2012, 11:11 AM
Knowshon and Gronk pushed all their LB's onto their backs...with Deebo threatening to rip the facemask off of anyone who tried to start crap.

I love Moreno on this play!

cmhargrove
12-03-2012, 11:12 AM
Back to the effectiveness question. Has anyone seen this work anywhere else? College? High School? CFL? Anywhere?

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-03-2012, 11:13 AM
It almost worked against the Giants because no one had tried it before. It won't work anymore because teams will be like the Broncos and ready for it - so it now accomplishes nothing. I don't wish injury on anyone, but I'd tell my OL to just fire at the DL's knees on these plays.

One of their Dlineman is going to get hurt. Then what are they going to say.

ludo21
12-03-2012, 11:13 AM
i dont mind the attempt whatsoever, small small chance of working, but you gotta try.. you never know

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-03-2012, 11:14 AM
Back to the effectiveness question. Has anyone seen this work anywhere else? College? High School? CFL? Anywhere?

I've never seen it done other than TB.

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2012, 11:14 AM
I don't think execution is the discussion here.

It's prominently featured in the OP, and in more than one reply.

Pick Six
12-03-2012, 11:15 AM
This became funny, when I realized that Manning kept the ball. You had all these Buc players trying to strip a non-existing ball...ROFL!

Drunken.Broncoholic
12-03-2012, 11:16 AM
i dont mind the attempt whatsoever, small small chance of working, but you gotta try.. you never know

I think they need to concentrate more on how to prevent victory formations from happening, instead of how to blow up a victory formation.

Rabb
12-03-2012, 11:18 AM
It isn't a classless organization, it's more a reflection on the head coach. It's cheap, gimmicky "look at how tough my team is" crap and it's going to result in an injury and subsequent rule change.

What pisses me off more than anything is, the penalty Von took (thanks Brady) in comparison to crap like this.

WolfpackGuy
12-03-2012, 11:19 AM
I think they need to concentrate more on how to prevent victory formations from happening, instead of how to blow up a victory formation.

Yeah, really.

We were hoping to see someone take off down the field and have Manning hit them with a bomb.

jmz313
12-03-2012, 11:20 AM
Just line up in a normal formation and kneel it out. they are playing to the end, do the same. if they don't line up on WR, complete the pass.

Rock Chalk
12-03-2012, 11:21 AM
I've never seen it done other than TB.

Rutgers did it all the time under Schiano.

fdf
12-03-2012, 11:22 AM
I can't be the only one who has absolutely no problem with this. It very nearly worked against the Giants and it gives them at least a shot to win the game. It ain't over until the clock hits zero after all. I never understood why you just have to accept the outcome when the other team takes a knee.

I agree. If they force a fumble, recover and run it back, all it takes is a two point conversion to tie the game. The game isn't over. Why should they quit?

Rock Chalk
12-03-2012, 11:23 AM
Is this really any different than in basketball teams fouling at the end of the game despite the fact that they are down 3+ scores?

No.

I dont agree with it, but I dont get outraged by it either. There is time on the clock, you keep playing. I always thought the "Victory" formation was stupid anyway. Run a ****ing play pussies.

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 11:27 AM
Is this really any different than in basketball teams fouling at the end of the game despite the fact that they are down 3+ scores?

No.

I dont agree with it, but I dont get outraged by it either. There is time on the clock, you keep playing. I always thought the "Victory" formation was stupid anyway. Run a ****ing play pussies.

It is a play, it's QB rush for -1 yards.

Rock Chalk
12-03-2012, 11:29 AM
It is a play, it's QB rush for -1 yards.

Fair enough.

Its a play. And the other team trying to go for a strip is a play.

WTF is the problem?

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2012, 11:31 AM
Fair enough.

Its a play. And the other team trying to go for a strip is a play.

WTF is the problem?

If we want to be technical, we could argue that they're going after the QBs knees, which is illegal. That's exactly what happened to Eli.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-03-2012, 11:34 AM
Why not kneel down from pistol or shotgun formation? Seems like an easy fix to me, plus it makes them look like a bunch of d!cks.

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 11:35 AM
Fair enough.

Its a play. And the other team trying to go for a strip is a play.

WTF is the problem?

And the NFL instituted a rule that the D couldn't line up over the C on extra points because of player safety. Someone is going to get a knee torn up over this and it will never result in a turnover.

55CrushEm
12-03-2012, 11:36 AM
Why not kneel down from pistol or shotgun formation? Seems like an easy fix to me, plus it makes them look like a bunch of d!cks.

Exactly. Kneel from the shotgun. Does it matter if the play goes for minus-1 yard, or for minus-7, if all you're doing is killing clock?

gyldenlove
12-03-2012, 11:40 AM
Why not kneel down from pistol or shotgun formation? Seems like an easy fix to me, plus it makes them look like a bunch of d!cks.

Just have all your blockers do cut blocks, see how many knees you can blow out.... I bet they will stop doing it if they lose someone to a torn ACL every time they try.

teknic
12-03-2012, 11:40 AM
They were trying to win the game. I don't see anything wrong with it.

The problem is that a scrum like that with the lineman has a very high probability for unnecessary injuries. The game is over, stop being a sore loser and taking cheap shots at players.

Let's be real, the chance of a fumble is negligible. It has never happened in the history of the NFL. The very small chance at causing a fumble is not worth risking injuries and looking like a douchebag in the process.

Play2win
12-03-2012, 11:42 AM
Tampa is Thug-central. No surprise there. And their football team is pretty low-class, too.

It would have been hilarious to see a TE slip out, and Manning hit him for a wide open TD.

Kaylore
12-03-2012, 11:47 AM
Is this really any different than in basketball teams fouling at the end of the game despite the fact that they are down 3+ scores?

No.

I dont agree with it, but I dont get outraged by it either. There is time on the clock, you keep playing. I always thought the "Victory" formation was stupid anyway. Run a ****ing play pussies.

This is how I view it. I think the kneel down is ghey. The players play to the whistle. I don't think it's going to ever accomplish anything, but their coach is a big reason the Buccs have turned things around and finishing is something he's put a lot of emphasis on this season.

I actually thought the coach was pretty cool. He spoke with Manning saying he wasn't trying to hurt him and I liked the way he slapped Manning on the helmet during the game when he converted that third down where he basically spiked the ball at Moreno and Moreno caught it. I've never seen an opposing coach do that. And Manning has never had it happen.

That said, I would re-think it. All you're going to do is hurt someone. So it's not worth it, IMO and it pisses a lot of tightly wound coaches off. Fox was kind of "whatever" about it. Coughlin went all "how DARE you, sir!." I would re-think it. It doesn't bother me, but it's probably something that isn't worth the reputation that comes with it and it's barely affecting the game.

Play2win
12-03-2012, 11:51 AM
Guess what? The modern NFL is ghey...

If they are going to keep the "giving up on a play" QB slide,

Then the NFL should put a rule in for the "giving up on a play" Kneel down.

underrated29
12-03-2012, 11:52 AM
I have no problem with it. There is nothing wrong there and it is no more gimmicky or worse then when a team does a random onside kick- aka saints superbowl....yeah. Same thing.

I am sure that if we were in the playoffs against he pats that you guys would not mind us trying it and getting the ball and tying the game or winning. Like everyone has said before, you play til the whistle. Well guess what, you play til the clock strikes 0:00.

Did you see how careful manning had to be to do this? Nerves easily could have had him drop the ball or miss the snap. Plus, in college this has worked a few times. This is a mans sport and top of the line, if you want to win easy watch a different sport. As for me, there is nothing wrong with it.


I would agree it would be nice to see us send a TE or WR out and let them burn those chumps for an easy score to rub it in, but from their side of things I completely get it.

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2012, 11:54 AM
I'd just alter my victory formation if I were facing these guys.

Go spread: 4 wide, shotgun, with a RB behind Manning just in case of a bad snap. Go silent count, so the defense has nothing to go off of. If anyone's uncovered, you throw it. Otherwise, kneel it down.

ZONA
12-03-2012, 12:08 PM
I can't be the only one who has absolutely no problem with this. It very nearly worked against the Giants and it gives them at least a shot to win the game. It ain't over until the clock hits zero after all. I never understood why you just have to accept the outcome when the other team takes a knee.

Wrong - it did NOT nearly work against the Giants. Who cares if the QB falls down because of the surge. The center to QB snap is over with in less then a second. The defense has absolutely NO chance at causing a fumble, especially if you make it a weekly thing and teams know that you're going to try that crap. The QB has the ball securely in in hand before the defense even reacts to the snap. There is a reason why why it has become normal in the NFL for the kneel down and the defense respecting it. The ONLY thing that will happen is injuries. I seriously hope the lose somebody to an injury while doing this and then maybe that lame ass HC will learn something about the NFL.

ZONA
12-03-2012, 12:13 PM
I have no problem with it. There is nothing wrong there and it is no more gimmicky or worse then when a team does a random onside kick- aka saints superbowl....yeah. Same thing.

I am sure that if we were in the playoffs against he pats that you guys would not mind us trying it and getting the ball and tying the game or winning. Like everyone has said before, you play til the whistle. Well guess what, you play til the clock strikes 0:00.

Did you see how careful manning had to be to do this? Nerves easily could have had him drop the ball or miss the snap. Plus, in college this has worked a few times. This is a mans sport and top of the line, if you want to win easy watch a different sport. As for me, there is nothing wrong with it.


I would agree it would be nice to see us send a TE or WR out and let them burn those chumps for an easy score to rub it in, but from their side of things I completely get it.

It's never worked in the NFL and it may have worked once or twice in college. So if you take the thousands upon thousands of Kneel downs over all those years, the % of a defense causing a fumble is like .000000000000001%. Yeah, let's stop pretending that it's going to work. It won't, it doesn't, it's foolish. When you say Manning could have EASILY got nervous and muffed the snap, I think that % shows you that your FOS.

I think we should have got lined up, make all those defensive players get in their ultra low stance, hold them there for 30 seconds and then take a penalty for delay of game. Do that 5 of 6 times and make their legs just burn for 30 seconds each time. Then take your last kneel down and deal with their BS.

sinuous sausage
12-03-2012, 12:13 PM
I'd just alter my victory formation if I were facing these guys.

Go spread: 4 wide, shotgun, with a RB behind Manning just in case of a bad snap. Go silent count, so the defense has nothing to go off of. If anyone's uncovered, you throw it. Otherwise, kneel it down.

that's exactly what they want, tho. kinda defeats the purpose of a victory formation.

I say they just hand the ball off on a stretch play or something

sinuous sausage
12-03-2012, 12:14 PM
It's never worked in the NFL and it may have worked once or twice in college. So if you take the thousands upon thousands of Kneel downs over all those years, the % of a defense causing a fumble is like .000000000000001%. Yeah, let's stop pretending that it's going to work. It won't, it doesn't, it's foolish. When you say Manning could have EASILY got nervous and muffed the snap, I think that % shows you that your FOS.

but the defenses usually don't attempt this tactic

Rabb
12-03-2012, 12:19 PM
I all but guarantee that if we lost a starter from this, the opinions would be a lot different.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't see how this is a safer play than the crap Von was called for earlier in the game. Be consistent NFL.

broncosteven
12-03-2012, 12:33 PM
The NFL has been kneeling to ice games for as long as I have been watching football, some 40 years.

For some teams like the Giants back in the late 70's it is hard to do. Snaps can still get fumbled hence the 2 guys behind the QB now. An Ice play still needs to be executed.

I have no problem with a couple kneels at the end of the game to run out clock especially after a team picks up a 1st down to ensure another set of downs that will run out the clock.

I think it goes back to player safety who wants to see an RB or QB get a knee blown out running 3 plays to end a game they are leading and controlling?

I think from a player safety point they will have to make a rule change to prevent this type of play. If you watch it the TB players are just looking to go down fighting. They were no where near Manning nor were they trying to get the ball plus they had guys going out of their way to jump into the pile well after the play ended.

Officals in the mean time can blow a quick whistle once the QB kneels then throw flags for PF's for jumping into the pile. Once the league starts fining guys and it is ineffective it will die.

I think Schaino(?) will be a pretty good HC in the league, no need to ruin his rep by pulling stupid **** the rest of the league doesn't like or want to see.

Bronco Boy
12-03-2012, 12:34 PM
Back to the effectiveness question. Has anyone seen this work anywhere else? College? High School? CFL? Anywhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jQz4BFbgARI

Br0nc0Buster
12-03-2012, 12:43 PM
A. Manning should of been taking the final snaps from the shotgun; don't give them a chance to bum rush and knock someone over
B. I wouldnt mind if we line up 5 wide instead and Manning take a shot downfield if they wanna do that

teknic
12-03-2012, 12:48 PM
I all but guarantee that if we lost a starter from this, the opinions would be a lot different.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't see how this is a safer play than the crap Von was called for earlier in the game. Be consistent NFL.

Yup.

Imagine if one of the offensive lineman was hurt because a defensive player dove at his legs. Just an unnecessary injury risk.

After they did it the first time against Peyton, I was hoping he would send someone on a route and run up the score.

Chris
12-03-2012, 12:55 PM
This is how I view it. I think the kneel down is ghey. The players play to the whistle. I don't think it's going to ever accomplish anything, but their coach is a big reason the Buccs have turned things around and finishing is something he's put a lot of emphasis on this season.

I actually thought the coach was pretty cool. He spoke with Manning saying he wasn't trying to hurt him and I liked the way he slapped Manning on the helmet during the game when he converted that third down where he basically spiked the ball at Moreno and Moreno caught it. I've never seen an opposing coach do that. And Manning has never had it happen.

That said, I would re-think it. All you're going to do is hurt someone. So it's not worth it, IMO and it pisses a lot of tightly wound coaches off. Fox was kind of "whatever" about it. Coughlin went all "how DARE you, sir!." I would re-think it. It doesn't bother me, but it's probably something that isn't worth the reputation that comes with it and it's barely affecting the game.

That and Schiano has the proportions of a Pixar character.

jerseyguy4
12-03-2012, 01:06 PM
I think it will never work in the NFL and is pretty dumb. However, that's his right to call the play. Whatever.

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bucs/article1228005.ece
I wouldn't say "No class"
I never saw this before. I don't really like Schiano in general. But that was pretty awesome. I might even have teared up a bit reading that

That One Guy
12-03-2012, 01:08 PM
If you watch it the TB players are just looking to go down fighting. They were no where near Manning nor were they trying to get the ball plus they had guys going out of their way to jump into the pile well after the play ended.



This my issue with it. Do they really want to offer that many opportunities to get last minute grudges out? The defense has nothing to lose.

As for those saying shotgun, there's no real loss at this point with getting an offsides call. Defensive players can keep trying to jump the snap, bump the center, and get a fumble. It's unlikely but what would you have to lose in trying it? Seems like more bad snaps would occur in shotgun than under center.

mkporter
12-03-2012, 01:19 PM
I think it's a legit play. Most of the response I see here for how to counteract this involve using shotgun, or running a regular play. This is exactly the outcome the the bucs should want. Forcing teams into riskier (if only slightly) play calls at the end of a game.

baja
12-03-2012, 01:21 PM
A. Manning should of been taking the final snaps from the shotgun; don't give them a chance to bum rush and knock someone over
B. I wouldnt mind if we line up 5 wide instead and Manning take a shot downfield if they wanna do that

This^ Was thinking the same thing and it would be hilarious

Rabb
12-03-2012, 01:24 PM
There's a reason none of the other teams do it, but what do I know.

baja
12-03-2012, 01:37 PM
Other teams will try and run the score up on Schiano and he will learn his lesson. Don't try and make a name for yourself (at the risk of unnecessary injuries) as a rookie coach in the NFL

edog24
12-03-2012, 01:39 PM
I guess it's a bad sign when your team is known for something when the victory formation is lined up against you.

i4jelway7
12-03-2012, 01:44 PM
props to them for playing to the final whistle, props to the broncos for being ready for it

That One Guy
12-03-2012, 01:45 PM
Other teams will try and run the score up on Schiano and he will learn his lesson. Don't try and make a name for yourself (at the risk of unnecessary injuries) as a rookie coach in the NFL

Unfortunately, Belicheck is probably the only coach willing to run it up on someone. Everyone else is too worried about offending someone, it seems.

errand
12-03-2012, 01:47 PM
Back to the effectiveness question. Has anyone seen this work anywhere else? College? High School? CFL? Anywhere?

If memory serves me right Schiano did the same thing at Rutgers and caused a fumble to win the game.....

That One Guy
12-03-2012, 01:49 PM
If memory serves me right Schiano did the same thing at Rutgers and caused a fumble to win the game.....

I believe I read after he first did it in week 2 that it worked 3 times at Rutgers but one was called back due to a penalty of some sort.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2012, 01:52 PM
I think they need to concentrate more on how to prevent victory formations from happening, instead of how to blow up a victory formation.

This.

underrated29
12-03-2012, 01:53 PM
It's never worked in the NFL and it may have worked once or twice in college. So if you take the thousands upon thousands of Kneel downs over all those years, the % of a defense causing a fumble is like .000000000000001%. Yeah, let's stop pretending that it's going to work. It won't, it doesn't, it's foolish. When you say Manning could have EASILY got nervous and muffed the snap, I think that % shows you that your FOS.

I think we should have got lined up, make all those defensive players get in their ultra low stance, hold them there for 30 seconds and then take a penalty for delay of game. Do that 5 of 6 times and make their legs just burn for 30 seconds each time. Then take your last kneel down and deal with their BS.


So because it has never happened in the victory formation my opinion is full of ****? Yeah, that..........wait.....no, no it doesnt make sense.

Fact is, that QBs muff snaps under center all the freaking time! Where is the percentage of that? Care to pull those up for us?- yes, they happen a bunch and when the game is tight and on the line- lets refer to the great elway back in '97 after the D stopped favre on 4th down. What was the very first thing he said to his center before they took the kneel down formation?.............."make sure I get this snap"...........!!!!!

So I am going to have to call bull**** on this one! It may not have happened yet but if elway was nervous enough- like I just said a QB might be- well then....maybe it just might happen afterall. You never know until you try.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2012, 01:54 PM
Just so we're crystal clear...

Von Miller gets flagged for diving and landing on a QB's knees, on a play that does actually work sometimes.

The Tampa D doesn't get flagged for literally diving at the O-line's knees with the game in hand.

You can win with class and you can lose with class. Schiano and his junior college bull**** is classless.

Rohirrim
12-03-2012, 02:02 PM
The original intent of the kneel down was to show a team that was already defeated that the winning team was not going to continue to try and score just to rub their faces in it. Schiano should no longer expect that courtesy.

swaiy
12-03-2012, 02:03 PM
I forget who the Bucs were playing (maybe the raiders) but, when they had the game in hand, Josh Freeman snapped from the shotgun and took a knee.

Stan
12-03-2012, 02:10 PM
If the situation is that they are within one score of tying the game I don't have a problem with it unless they are just using it to take cheap shots. The refs need to watch closely for these and throw plenty of flags if that is the case and not just penalize them with yards. I am talking about fines and/or suspensions. The only real way this is going to work for them though is with the element of surprise. Now that everyone knows it is coming the chances of it actually working is incredibly small. It looked like Denver had worked on it ahead of time. Manning didn't just take a knee when he received the snap, he took a few quick steps before kneeling and then got the ball to the refs.

Mile High Salute
12-03-2012, 02:17 PM
I'd like to hear one instance, just ONE, of this garbage actually working. Until then, Schiano's just a classless jerk and I hope he gets run over by a truck.

WolfpackGuy
12-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Just be ready for it, I guess.

I'd rather not see the Broncos have to break the shotgun snap out in those situations though because they did happen to botch one earlier in the game.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
12-03-2012, 02:22 PM
Knowshon and Gronk pushed all their LB's onto their backs...with Deebo threatening to rip the facemask off of anyone who tried to start crap.

LOL!

broncosteven
12-03-2012, 02:29 PM
I think it's a legit play. Most of the response I see here for how to counteract this involve using shotgun, or running a regular play. This is exactly the outcome the the bucs should want. Forcing teams into riskier (if only slightly) play calls at the end of a game.

It cracks me up that people think a shotgun snap would end the discussion. Bad snaps happen all the time. Plus the reason they don't call a run play in victory situations is to prevent a fumble.

Does anyone here feel comfortable with any of our RB's carrying the ball while a D is desperate and holding them up to go for the strip?

Best play is to be ready for it and for the coaches to complain to the league office afterward. I thought it was dirty that TB was jumping the pile well after the whistle blew.

Aftermath
12-03-2012, 02:51 PM
They were trying to win the game. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Agreed. We shouldn't of quit trying to score, so sick of conservative play calling at the end to allow the teams within one score. Finish em off like the Pats. I don't mind the Bucs strategy at all.

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2012, 03:05 PM
Fact is, that QBs muff snaps under center all the freaking time! Where is the percentage of that? Care to pull those up for us?-

Ummm, what?

All the time? Please.

There are between 40,000 and 50,000 offensive snaps in the average NFL calendar year and there are less than 50 muffed snaps all season long, league wide.

Rabb
12-03-2012, 03:14 PM
I would bet the number of injuries from doing this every week is a lot larger than the number of times it actually works and created a turnover. All it will take is some marquee player being injured for the league to step in on it, matter of time really.

colorado jones
12-03-2012, 03:18 PM
I have no problem with it.

But it is funny that was the hardest the Tampa DL fired off the line all day.

Action
12-03-2012, 03:30 PM
I have no problem with it.

But it is funny that was the hardest the Tampa DL fired off the line all day.

You must have not seen any of the running plays the Broncos ran.

teknic
12-03-2012, 03:32 PM
I would bet the number of injuries from doing this every week is a lot larger than the number of times it actually works and created a turnover. All it will take is some marquee player being injured for the league to step in on it, matter of time really.

Exactly.

The solution people have been posting in this thread, to take a knee out of shotgun, does nothing to mitigate the injury risk from their defensive players firing themselves into the offensive lineman. Either a player is going to get seriously hurt from those scrums, or they will eventually escalate to a big fight.

Rabb
12-03-2012, 03:35 PM
Exactly.

The solution people have been posting in this thread, to take a knee out of shotgun, does nothing to mitigate the injury risk from their defensive players firing themselves into the offensive lineman. Either a player is going to get seriously hurt from those scrums, or they will eventually escalate to a big fight.

Yep. I am never one to wish injury on any athlete at all...that is just not sporting and bad karma but the only thing other than the league that may stop this guy is one of his own players being hurt on these plays.

ChampJesusBailey
12-03-2012, 03:45 PM
After the first one we should have had Baybay act like he would protect Peypey and then leak out down the field for the easiest touchdown ever. See how they like that. I mean, if they can play hard until the clock says 0 why shouldn't an offense?

baja
12-03-2012, 03:50 PM
Exactly.

The solution people have been posting in this thread, to take a knee out of shotgun, does nothing to mitigate the injury risk from their defensive players firing themselves into the offensive lineman. Either a player is going to get seriously hurt from those scrums, or they will eventually escalate to a big fight.

This will never be a rule but someone might make a phone call.

mkporter
12-03-2012, 04:26 PM
Exactly.

The solution people have been posting in this thread, to take a knee out of shotgun, does nothing to mitigate the injury risk from their defensive players firing themselves into the offensive lineman. Either a player is going to get seriously hurt from those scrums, or they will eventually escalate to a big fight.

Isn't that what happens essentially every play? Don't defensive lineman aggressively collide into offensive lineman? I can see the concern if you have guys doing extra curricular stuff, but I really don't see why this play is so much worse than any other. If you don't like so many lineman crowding the ball, than do your victory formation with 5 wide or something.

TheReverend
12-03-2012, 04:28 PM
After the first one we should have had Baybay act like he would protect Peypey and then leak out down the field for the easiest touchdown ever. See how they like that. I mean, if they can play hard until the clock says 0 why shouldn't an offense?

Repped.

Fox shouldve slapped Schiano in the stupid ****ing face.

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 04:46 PM
Repped.

Fox shouldve slapped Schiano in the stupid ****ing face with his d!ck.

Added to your post.

underrated29
12-03-2012, 05:11 PM
Ummm, what?

All the time? Please.

There are between 40,000 and 50,000 offensive snaps in the average NFL calendar year and there are less than 50 muffed snaps all season long, league wide.



So even then, 50 divided by 16 games is 3.125 times a week it happens. Obviously that number goes down as I am sure its not 50. That added with the way our team loves to fumble the ball....I think my point stands.

Bacchus
12-03-2012, 06:08 PM
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1820965/bucsportsmanship.gif
Check out Gronk on this play!! The guy came to fight!!!

Bacchus
12-03-2012, 06:10 PM
I believe this is the 4th game this year where they have done this. They have not accomplished anything from doing it. So will they continue?

ZONA
12-03-2012, 06:11 PM
So because it has never happened in the victory formation my opinion is full of ****? Yeah, that..........wait.....no, no it doesnt make sense.

Fact is, that QBs muff snaps under center all the freaking time! Where is the percentage of that? Care to pull those up for us?- yes, they happen a bunch and when the game is tight and on the line- lets refer to the great elway back in '97 after the D stopped favre on 4th down. What was the very first thing he said to his center before they took the kneel down formation?.............."make sure I get this snap"...........!!!!!

So I am going to have to call bull**** on this one! It may not have happened yet but if elway was nervous enough- like I just said a QB might be- well then....maybe it just might happen afterall. You never know until you try.

First off, QB's don't muff snaps "all the time". It's happens but it's rare. Now, let's take into account what we're talking about. The type of play they are taking a snap for. There's no having to read a defense, there's no having to turn around and hand the ball off, no having to drop back and pass. There's nothing else for the QB to think about but kneeling down. There is a reason why no NFL QB's muff victory formation snaps in the NFL. Don't try and compare this unique play with any other play in which a QB might muff a snap. You can argue all you want about play to the whistle, whatever, that's fine. But don't try and make a case that there is a decent probability of them causing a fumble.

Even the Bucs players don't like do this. Broncos player said on radio today when the went up to the line they told the defensive players not to do it and they said in return they have to or it's their butt.

So some scrub QB for some scrub team in college didn't see it coming and they got caught off guard. The honeymoon is over, everybody knows it's coming, there is no way in hell it will work for them.

Honestly I think there coach knows the chances are worse then a snowball in hell. I think he's trying to teach his team to play hard until the end. But there is a better way of doing that then risking injury to them and the other team when the other team is being classy about winning.

Vine
12-03-2012, 06:17 PM
Just a bunch of ****ing crybabies in this thread. Last time I checked, a football game is 60 minutes long. If they are truly worried about a cheap injury, then don't kneel. Do a simple handoff.

errand
12-03-2012, 06:19 PM
Yeah, well at least it's not as bad as this one....

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q5lT7o8EuD8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

gyldenlove
12-03-2012, 06:21 PM
It's just a good reason for teams to run up the score against Tampa - don't risk having to take the knee and get someone injured.

DENVERDUI55
12-03-2012, 06:23 PM
Back to the effectiveness question. Has anyone seen this work anywhere else? College? High School? CFL? Anywhere?

It worked a time or two at Rutgers for Schiano. I actually like him and think he is a great coach but this type of play of bush league. That is the only thing I don't like. I liked that he gave Manning props on the pass to Slowshon where he was on the ground. He patted him and smiled.

Vine
12-03-2012, 06:27 PM
Just so we're crystal clear...

Von Miller gets flagged for diving and landing on a QB's knees, on a play that does actually work sometimes.

The Tampa D doesn't get flagged for literally diving at the O-line's knees with the game in hand.

You can win with class and you can lose with class. Schiano and his junior college bull**** is classless.

The Tampa D was NOT diving at the Lineman's knees. They were diving at the snap, the area behind the center and the qb hand's receiving the handoff. If anyone is intentionally diving at players knees, then they should be suspended a few games.

DENVERDUI55
12-03-2012, 06:29 PM
If anyone's uncovered, you throw it. Otherwise, kneel it down.

That would be retarded. Sometimes it takes 3 kneel downs to kill it and as soon as you throw it a wide open Decker would drop it. Go shotgun as you say and just knee it down.

errand
12-03-2012, 06:39 PM
A. Manning should of been taking the final snaps from the shotgun; don't give them a chance to bum rush and knock someone over
B. I wouldnt mind if we line up 5 wide instead and Manning take a shot downfield if they wanna do that

or better yet, put Holliday in the shotgun, snap it to him and let him run wild all over the field (just don't take a safety) and make those mother ****ers chase him for about 12 seconds.....

Aftermath
12-03-2012, 06:42 PM
Yeah, well at least it's not as bad as this one....

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q5lT7o8EuD8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hahahahahah

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 06:52 PM
or better yet, put Holliday in the shotgun, snap it to him and let him run wild all over the field (just don't take a safety) and make those mother ****ers chase him for about 12 seconds.....

And if it's a home game have the stadium play the Benny Hill Theme song!

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/MK6TXMsvgQg?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/MK6TXMsvgQg?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

yerner
12-03-2012, 06:56 PM
I feel bad for the Tampa players. You know they don't want to do this dumb stuff. They're forced to by their idiot head coach and have their jobs on the line.

jmz313
12-03-2012, 07:06 PM
Its professional football. Tampa does this, figure out a way to negate it... Isn't that what sports are? Beating the other team at what they do?

Protect the players by playing hard for 60 minutes not 59:20.

Broncobiv
12-03-2012, 07:15 PM
Just read through the whole thread and one thing is still unclear...has anyone thought to simply pass it deep for an easy, uncovered TD? That would show 'em.

Bacchus
12-03-2012, 07:20 PM
Just read through the whole thread and one thing is still unclear...has anyone thought to simply pass it deep for an easy, uncovered TD? That would show 'em.

Well, they wouldn't be uncovered there would be in single coverage on wide receivers. Has anyone thought about what would happen if Manning dropped back to pass and a Defensive player bursts through the line untouched forcing Manning to fumble. Then the defensive player picks it up and runs it in for a TD? Has anyone talked about that yet?

sinuous sausage
12-03-2012, 09:12 PM
Tampa's goal in all this is to prevent the victory formation from ever occurring. Jedi mind tricks with Bey Bey and PFM doing snap reads of the defense and goofing off with the football are exactly what the Bucs want.

Sciano is gambling. He'll risk losing by a wider margin if it means there is a chance he can force an error from the offense. He's basically said "run the score up on me if you can." I think teams start obliging in the near future.

Agamemnon
12-03-2012, 09:21 PM
People defending this stupidity are dip****s. That is all.

sinuous sausage
12-03-2012, 09:26 PM
People defending this stupidity are dip****s. That is all.

Reality is the man has and will continue to pull the maneuver and said maneuver is within the rules of the game. I think bubble screens are stupid and intellectually indefensible, but I also think teams should face the fact they exist.

That One Guy
12-03-2012, 09:47 PM
Also, the NFL has said they have no issues with this occurring so I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere. God forbid it ever succeeds, though, or it'll be the next icing the kicker fad.

Irish Stout
12-04-2012, 08:56 AM
Just read through the whole thread and one thing is still unclear...has anyone thought to simply pass it deep for an easy, uncovered TD? That would show 'em.

That was mentioned twice on the first page. I think its a genius idea to have DT in the backfield and if the team does this just have many jump back with the ball and drop it off to a DT who is going long.

Beantown Bronco
12-04-2012, 09:25 AM
That was mentioned twice on the first page.

He was being sarcastic.

Broncobiv
12-04-2012, 05:23 PM
He was being sarcastic.

^5

Especially considering it was also mentioned at least once on every other page after the first, too! ROFL!

cabronco
12-04-2012, 05:52 PM
Even makes me more mad that we let off the gas on this TB coach. Should have run the score up on them, instead of letting our gassed defense go back out on the field w/ quick 3 and outs.

That One Guy
12-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Even makes me more mad that we let off the gas on this TB coach. Should have run the score up on them, instead of letting our gassed defense go back out on the field w/ quick 3 and outs.

Well I read somewhere that they were selectively resting players because of the quick turnaround for Thursday's game. Better to play it safe in that case, if true.

Rocket 7
12-04-2012, 11:18 PM
Do what Buddy Ryan did

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0qDWxTsl4rI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Missouribronc
12-04-2012, 11:27 PM
The pistol formation solves all of this dumb crap.

StugotsIII
12-04-2012, 11:43 PM
The game is 60 minutes last time I checked…and the game wasn't over.


I have no problem with them trying to cause a turnover.

Mogulseeker
12-04-2012, 11:54 PM
Some people aren't as interested in this as me (I understand). However the Schiano kneel down antics deserve a little analysis. I found this sped up "three stooges version" of the kneel down play. It's kind of ineresting to analyze.

It looks like we did game plan for this (as we should have), but it also doesn't look like Tampa Bay has the right strategy. I would be going for the ball/snapping arm, but it looks like their theory is to knock the Center back into the QB.

Anyone ever seen this type of play work, even in college? It just looks like they were trying to be "punitive" rather than really getting a good shot at a turnover. Maybe, by having both our Guards dive in we just took the play away. Anyway, thought it was worth a look or three.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1820965/bucsportsmanship.gif

Tom Nalen was talking about this on ESPN radio... he basically said that the strategy is to push the center back into the QB, and he said if he were facing off against Schiano's Bucs, he would tell his guards "do whatever it takes - within or outside of the rules to keep their lineman off me."

dekers
12-05-2012, 12:22 AM
I would try a fake kneel down to see if I could get a cheap TD if they did it more than once.

i would do the same thing, kinda like you want to play to the end ok here you go :wave: