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View Full Version : Is this the best team Peyton Manning has played on?


enjolras
12-02-2012, 07:24 PM
I'm curious, has Peyton Manning ever had a better team around him than he does right now? Thinking back, he may have had a better offense during the Edgerrin James prime years...but he's never had a team this good in all 3 phases has he?

sinuous sausage
12-02-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm curious, has Peyton Manning ever had a better team around him than he does right now? Thinking back, he may have had a better offense during the Edgerrin James prime years...but he's never had a team this good in all 3 phases has he?

Some of those Indy squads were juggernauts. Especially in the playoffs. Against the Broncos.

tsiguy96
12-02-2012, 07:29 PM
from what i recall, his indy defenses were so good because his offense was so good. they would get up, defense could attack and was built to play from ahead. they couldnt, however, take over a game and win it on their own like this defense can.

baja
12-02-2012, 07:29 PM
Doubt he ever had a better defense

That One Guy
12-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Some of my favorite games were the games involving those Colt teams with no D. The Mike Bell Indy game really stands out. Those were fun.

But best in terms of all three phases being balanced? Possibly. The Ds were always a different beast though when... whoever that safety was that was always hurt was on the field. It was particularly when he was out that they really struggled.

Slade
12-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Bob Sanders. In 2007 he was DPOY

tsiguy96
12-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Some of my favorite games were the games involving those Colt teams with no D. The Mike Bell Indy game really stands out. Those were fun.

But best in terms of all three phases being balanced? Possibly. The Ds were always a different beast though when... whoever that safety was that was always hurt was on the field. It was particularly when he was out that they really struggled.

bob sanders

That One Guy
12-02-2012, 07:36 PM
bob sanders

That guy!

He made a huge difference and many of the Ds we associate with the Manning Colts were only as bad as they were because Sanders made the D viable. Sanders, Mathis, and Freeney were a force for quite some time.

teknic
12-02-2012, 07:36 PM
The best defense probably.

It's not even close on offense though.

Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Stokely, Clark, Edge in their prime was pretty unreal (2004).

Dr. Broncenstein
12-02-2012, 07:37 PM
Marvin Harrison + Reggie Wayne + Dallas Clark + Edgerrin James >> current skill positions

Dr. Broncenstein
12-02-2012, 07:38 PM
The best defense probably.

It's not even close on offense though.

Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Stokely, Clark, Edge in their prime was pretty unreal (2004).

Oh man you just beat me

frerottenextelway
12-02-2012, 07:39 PM
Some of those Indy squads were juggernauts. Especially in the playoffs. Against the Broncos.

Oh God, I just remembered that Roc Alexander existed.

sinuous sausage
12-02-2012, 07:44 PM
Marvin Harrison + Reggie Wayne + Dallas Clark + Edgerrin James >> current skill positions

No way. Knowshon > Edge.

























Kidding, everyone.

Bronco X
12-02-2012, 08:17 PM
Peyton Manning has played on a team that won the Super Bowl. If this team accomplishes that feat, we can start this discussion.

NFLBRONCO
12-02-2012, 08:23 PM
I love Thomas and Decker but, Indy's weapons were better. I think Indy's DL was better too but, rest yes

bronco militia
12-02-2012, 08:34 PM
Dallas Clark still looks better than Tamme or Dreessen

Saturday is still better the Koppen

theAPAOps5
12-02-2012, 08:42 PM
Marvin Harrison + Reggie Wayne + Dallas Clark + Edgerrin James >> current skill positions

Only one that may be better on Denver is Demaryius Thomas. He has now emerged as a top notch #1 WR. Man I have never been so happy to be wrong about a player than him. He is so fun to watch now. His blocking is a thing of beauty.

teknic
12-02-2012, 08:56 PM
Only one that may be better on Denver is Demaryius Thomas. He has now emerged as a top notch #1 WR. Man I have never been so happy to be wrong about a player than him. He is so fun to watch now. His blocking is a thing of beauty.

Gotta love DT's stiff-arms too! He's a tough receiver to bring down.

Kid A
12-02-2012, 09:03 PM
Marvin Harrison + Reggie Wayne + Dallas Clark + Edgerrin James >> current skill positions

I think the real big edge also comes in those guys being together for a lot of seasons. It has been amazing how quick the system has gelled here, Decker and DT have shown themselves as legit WRs and Tamme has been very solid, but those great Colts teams were really on the same page. There's still a lot of learning on the job going on with our offense this year.

jerseyguy4
12-02-2012, 09:10 PM
Defense is better than he ever had in Indy, hands down.
No mention of special teams? Indy always had good kickers and punters, but TERRIBLE coverage and return. Holiday has as many good run backs as Peyton had seen in all his Indy years combined

I'm not gonna bite too much on the Sanders comments. The guy was great when he played. But he was like a glass version of Troy Palamalu

g6matty
12-02-2012, 09:14 PM
i think if manning was 5 years younger and had a chance to grow with DT he could of been better then wayne and harrison. the guys size speed talent ratio is un real. i hope he blossoms into what his full potential can be. i dont see him as a calvin johnson but more of an andre johnson. he doesnt really have that pluckability of a larry fitzgerald. although manning doesnt really give him a chance at jump balls he hits him in stride so nicely.

DENVERDUI55
12-02-2012, 09:24 PM
The team in 2005 when Pittsburgh beat them allowing us afc championship game was his best in my opinion. They were stacked and Manning was untouchable that year. This teams D is better than his Indy teams.

Broncolt
12-02-2012, 10:37 PM
offense no, but with peyton manning, he can make any offense click, and DT and decker have really stepped it up this year and been very consistent solid playmaking WRs.

the defense, the only years i remember our colts D being anywhere near as good as this squad is 2006 playoffs to 2007. but i really think this is the best team manning has had and i truly see this squad in the superbowl

g6matty
12-02-2012, 10:43 PM
offense no, but with peyton manning, he can make any offense click, and DT and decker have really stepped it up this year and been very consistent solid playmaking WRs.

the defense, the only years i remember our colts D being anywhere near as good as this squad is 2006 playoffs to 2007. but i really think this is the best team manning has had and i truly see this squad in the superbowl

see this is what makes me mad about analysts/fans. they think that manning made DT and decker like these stud receivers but the truth is the talent was always there the QB getting them the ball was not. DT was riddled with injuries his first two years and he was playing well even with teblow at QB last year. skip bayless repeatedly said decker wasnt even a top 50 receiver last year and he blamed tebows ****ty completion percentage on bad WR play. these guys needed someone to tie them all together and manning is that key.

BowlenBall
12-02-2012, 10:53 PM
2007 Indianapolis Colts: 5th overall in offense, 3rd overall in defense.

Manning's Colts teams were consistently top-5 on offense, but 2007 was the only year where they were above-average on defense.

So, yeah... this team has a shot to be the best Manning's ever played on.....

Agamemnon
12-02-2012, 11:39 PM
Overall I'd say they are better in theory. The problem is that McCoy is a god awful OC.

sinuous sausage
12-02-2012, 11:46 PM
Overall I'd say they are better in theory. The problem is that McCoy is a god awful OC.

You really think so? I've been impressed with his demonstrated ability to win games utilizing schemes across the offensive spectrum. Most calls I've been annoyed at this season, like Lance Ball draw plays on 3rd-and-Kansas, are audibled into by PFM.

And I have seen McCoy's name floated as a top HC prospect in the NFL.

Agamemnon
12-02-2012, 11:56 PM
You really think so? I've been impressed with his demonstrated ability to win games utilizing schemes across the offensive spectrum. Most calls I've been annoyed at this season, like Lance Ball draw plays on 3rd-and-Kansas, are audibled into by PFM.

And I have seen McCoy's name floated as a top HC prospect in the NFL.

God I'm tired of hearing about what Manning did or did not audible into. Manning acts like he's calling an audible all the time, but just because he's calling out some random words doesn't mean he's actually calling an audible. If you think Manning is calling run audibles on all the stupid run calls we've had this season, you are certifiably insane.

And every time someone acts like McCoy did anything but undermine Tebow as a passer with his garbage half-ass option scheme, two receiver sets, and constant runs except when the game was all but lost, it makes me want to choke some one.

So yes I'm certain McCoy is an awful OC, and I really, really, really hope some idiot owner somewhere is too stupid to see it and hires him to be a head coach. I want the guy gone like a man on fire wants to be thrown in the ocean.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-02-2012, 11:56 PM
Overall I'd say they are better in theory. The problem is that McCoy is a god awful OC.

You mean the same OC that has the #3 offense in Yards Per Game and Points Per Game?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=SCORING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2012&seasonType=REG

BTW this is the same OC that squeezed production out of the QB that will not be named and Orton. How about the OC that has turned a 30+ RB into a 1000 yard back.

Agamemnon
12-02-2012, 11:59 PM
You mean the same OC that has the #3 offense in Yards Per Game and Points Per Game?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=SCORING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2012&seasonType=REG

BTW this is the same OC that squeezed production out of the QB that will not be named and Orton. How about the OC that has turned a 30+ RB into a 1000 yard back.

Hilarious!

sinuous sausage
12-03-2012, 12:04 AM
God I'm tired of hearing about what Manning did or did not audible into. Manning acts like he's calling an audible all the time, but just because he's calling out some random words doesn't mean he's actually calling an audible. If you think Manning is calling run audibles on all the stupid run calls we've had this season, you are certifiably insane.

And every time someone acts like McCoy did anything but undermine Tebow as a passer with his garbage half-ass option scheme, two receiver sets, and constant runs except when the game was all but lost, it makes me want to choke some one.

So yes I'm certain McCoy is an awful OC, and I really, really, really hope some idiot owner somewhere is too stupid to see it and hires him to be a head coach. I want the guy gone like a man on fire wants to be thrown in the ocean.

but I imagine PFM has the authoritah to audible in those situations, so even a fake-audible is his seal of approval on the crap play. I get the sense he's running the show out there.

He squeezed more of out the Tesus than anyone on the Jets has thus far. granted, it's a small sample size, but Tim couldn't move the O at all in the preseason.

I'm inclined to give the man some benefit of the doubt. one thing you can't call him is egotistical. I won't mourn his loss, but I won't air hump anything, either.

Agamemnon
12-03-2012, 12:12 AM
but I imagine PFM has the authoritah to audible in those situations, so even a fake-audible is his seal of approval on the crap play. I get the sense he's running the show out there.

He squeezed more of out the Tesus than anyone on the Jets has thus far. granted, it's a small sample size, but Tim couldn't move the O at all in the preseason.

I'm inclined to give the man some benefit of the doubt. one thing you can't call him is egotistical. I won't mourn his loss, but I won't air hump anything, either.

Being Manning's OC seems to be the cushiest job ever. When the offense does well as it inevitably will because Manning is just that good, you get the credit. When you call stupid ass plays and they don't go so well, everyone just shrugs and says "Manning audibled into it so you can't blame the coach". It's hilarious really.

Oh and as far as squeezing anything out of Tebow, the fact is that only calling pass plays on 3rd down and/or when the game was all but lost is the worst thing you can do to a young, developing QB. I don't get how people don't understand that.

sinuous sausage
12-03-2012, 12:25 AM
Being Manning's OC seems to be the cushiest job ever. When the offense does well as it inevitably will because Manning is just that good, you get the credit. When you call stupid ass plays and they don't go so well, everyone just shrugs and says "Manning audibled into it so you can't blame the coach". It's hilarious really.

it's all on Manning, by my reckoning. he's good enough to chart the course and steer the ship.

methinks you're unduly criticizing McCoy. it takes a righteous kind of bloke to navigate the shoals of a high-pressure gig like an NFL offensive coordinator w/o so much as one complaint, especially considering how scattered the offensive philosophy has been the last few years. most guys at that level would have thrown their egos around a bit. but he produced, or at least got nominal credit for, winning gameplans thru circumstances that could not have been more different. I find that impressive. plus you hear nothing but good things about him.

bowtown
12-03-2012, 03:37 AM
Agamemnon will forever hate McCoy for not allowing Tebow to throw more balls in the dirt. You can't rationalize with that.

Rock Chalk
12-03-2012, 05:27 AM
Dallas Clark still looks better than Tamme or Dreessen

Saturday is still better the Koppen

I disagree. Saturday is hugely over-rated.

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 05:56 AM
I think it is, the O might not be quite up there with the Colts in their prime, but it's only 12 games into his tenure here and they're meshing nicely, I expect next years O to be the absolute best Peyton has played on. The D is probably better than anything he had previously, even when the mighty glass Sanders played. The ST is far better all around.

We'll make a good run this year, but I'm not expecting a Superbowl just yet - we'll go back to back the following 2 years and then try to talk Peyton into going for the 3peat just to show Elway once and for all who is the GOAT :D

jerseyguy4
12-03-2012, 06:50 AM
Being Manning's OC seems to be the cushiest job ever. When the offense does well as it inevitably will because Manning is just that good, you get the credit. When you call stupid ass plays and they don't go so well, everyone just shrugs and says "Manning audibled into it so you can't blame the coach". It's hilarious really.
Incorrecto.
I'm sure it's nice to be the OC behind Manning. It's exciting and you're practically guaranteed a winning record.
But cushy? No. Manning may/does have a huge say in the called plays, gameplan, and game management. But there is no way he would allow an OC to sit on their haunches and ride the wagon. If he thought McCoy wasn't pulling his weight or wasn't an asset, he'd be gone. Bank it.

Bigdawg26
12-03-2012, 07:23 AM
Yeah the 04 Colts had a really great offense, but you have to look at the youth and talent we have. We have two bookend tackles that are 26 and 24. Two big young receivers who are only one year into this system and really never had a QB that can get them the ball. Stokley, Tamme, and Dressen who just find ways to make cluth catches. Now, Willis was great chain moving RB for this team so hopefully gets backs, but could have been a 1000 yard runner. I think next year or the end of the year, they may be up there with the 04 colts.

BroncoBeavis
12-03-2012, 07:28 AM
Had the '05 Colts finshed well instead of one-n-done'ing in the playoffs, they would've gone down as one of the greatest ever. Instead, they're a footnote.

Moral of the story... way too soon to answer this question.

DENVERDUI55
12-03-2012, 07:30 AM
Overall I'd say they are better in theory. The problem is that McCoy is a god awful OC.

Yeah he is so bad he can't design offenses for his players. He just plays Madden and footage the plays. Teams are going to be interviewing him for HC he is so bad.

Punisher
12-03-2012, 08:16 AM
Best looking team I can tell that baby!

theAPAOps5
12-03-2012, 08:51 AM
Agamemnon will forever hate McCoy for not allowing Tebow to throw more balls in the dirt. You can't rationalize with that.

YAHTZEE!

Bmore Manning
12-03-2012, 09:16 AM
Peyton makes everyone around him better, whether they had natural talent or not. Sure DT and Decker had the talent, but it is Peyton who is making these guys run clean routes, and focus on all the aspects of the game THEY have control over.. You can't teach all aspects of ones position, but Peyton will make you perfect everything you have control over.. Note DTs touchdown where he put his hands up at the last minute. I have been so pleasantly surprised with DTs growth! He has the potential to be better than any Colt ever was for Manning. A nice dynamic slot WR could really help this offense as well as a young fresh RB.. Then we could be talking best offense. These guys PM had, he made them superstars by utilizing their strengths in the best situations. If you think that's not true how did/are these guys doing/did on other teams? Or need I say 2011 Colts..?

Defensively it's not even close..

Special Teams it's not even close.. Indy had an idiot kicker who cost them a Superbowl appearance, playoff games, regular season games. They never had a dynamic return man.

When I first joined this forum I said how excited I was for this teams potential. Imagine what another draft/free agency offseason, and another year of gelling is going to do for this team.. Think what a couple of years will do! If Peyton plays 5 years, which I hope he does at least that, we could be talking about 5 years of dominance!

comoose00
12-03-2012, 09:23 AM
God I'm tired of hearing about what Manning did or did not audible into. Manning acts like he's calling an audible all the time, but just because he's calling out some random words doesn't mean he's actually calling an audible. If you think Manning is calling run audibles on all the stupid run calls we've had this season, you are certifiably insane.

And every time someone acts like McCoy did anything but undermine Tebow as a passer with his garbage half-ass option scheme, two receiver sets, and constant runs except when the game was all but lost, it makes me want to choke some one.

So yes I'm certain McCoy is an awful OC, and I really, really, really hope some idiot owner somewhere is too stupid to see it and hires him to be a head coach. I want the guy gone like a man on fire wants to be thrown in the ocean.

Agreed I hate McCoy. I also hope some idiot is snow jobbed by this retard. If you think McCoy is all that and a bag of chip, just wait you will see next year when is a HC for someone else.

Mediator12
12-03-2012, 09:31 AM
God I'm tired of hearing about what Manning did or did not audible into. Manning acts like he's calling an audible all the time, but just because he's calling out some random words doesn't mean he's actually calling an audible. If you think Manning is calling run audibles on all the stupid run calls we've had this season, you are certifiably insane.

And every time someone acts like McCoy did anything but undermine Tebow as a passer with his garbage half-ass option scheme, two receiver sets, and constant runs except when the game was all but lost, it makes me want to choke some one.

So yes I'm certain McCoy is an awful OC, and I really, really, really hope some idiot owner somewhere is too stupid to see it and hires him to be a head coach. I want the guy gone like a man on fire wants to be thrown in the ocean.

Wow, every time you post things like this, you lose all credibility. None of these points make any sense, especially the Tebow ones. As for Manning, he does not audible every time, but he does assess the defense every time and have the ability to change the play if it does not look good pre-snap. That means he takes them out of any play that does not look good against the set defense presnap. He keeps them out of these supposed bad plays better than any QB in the game. Its still execution error or situational football like handing the ball off the last 6 plays when a PA pass probably wins the game or scores against those run defenses. However, Fox is a real conservative in those situations and it would be rare for him to be aggressive like Belichick has been with the game on the line.

I know you have this biased view of McCoy, but he has done an incredible coaching job the last 2 years, running an offense in both cases that is not his own but fits his personnel. The guy is not an offensive genius or an elite playcaller like Sean Payton or Mike McCarthy, but he has done an unreal job with his personnel and getting the most out of them the last 2 years.

In short, you hate the guy. We get it. However, make some valid points or move on. These are simply nothing new and wrong.

Mediator12
12-03-2012, 09:34 AM
Agreed I hate McCoy. I also hope some idiot is snow jobbed by this retard. If you think McCoy is all that and a bag of chip, just wait you will see next year when is a HC for someone else.

The worst evaluation people can do is to take a Coordinator and say that he can become a great head coach or will suck based on how good a Coordinator he was.

The skills are completely different, and you have your hands on completely different things during the season than when you run a side of the ball. I hate it when people think they can predict if a guy will succeed or fail based on this. No one knows, until these guys get a shot.

R8R H8R
12-03-2012, 09:46 AM
Peyton Manning has played on a team that won the Super Bowl. If this team accomplishes that feat, we can start this discussion.

This. The reality is that this team is not better if they don't go to and win the SB. Until they do that, there is no argument.

ColoradoDarin
12-03-2012, 10:03 AM
The worst evaluation people can do is to take a Coordinator and say that he can become a great head coach or will suck based on how good a Coordinator he was.

The skills are completely different, and you have your hands on completely different things during the season than when you run a side of the ball. I hate it when people think they can predict if a guy will succeed or fail based on this. No one knows, until these guys get a shot.

We'll call it The Dick LeBeau Rule.

Agamemnon
12-03-2012, 06:36 PM
Wow, every time you post things like this, you lose all credibility. None of these points make any sense, especially the Tebow ones. As for Manning, he does not audible every time, but he does assess the defense every time and have the ability to change the play if it does not look good pre-snap. That means he takes them out of any play that does not look good against the set defense presnap. He keeps them out of these supposed bad plays better than any QB in the game. Its still execution error or situational football like handing the ball off the last 6 plays when a PA pass probably wins the game or scores against those run defenses. However, Fox is a real conservative in those situations and it would be rare for him to be aggressive like Belichick has been with the game on the line.

I know you have this biased view of McCoy, but he has done an incredible coaching job the last 2 years, running an offense in both cases that is not his own but fits his personnel. The guy is not an offensive genius or an elite playcaller like Sean Payton or Mike McCarthy, but he has done an unreal job with his personnel and getting the most out of them the last 2 years.

In short, you hate the guy. We get it. However, make some valid points or move on. These are simply nothing new and wrong.

I stopped reading when you said my Tebow point made no sense. You don't take a young, developing QB and only ever let him throw on 3rd down or when the game was almost lost. In case you aren't aware, third down is the hardest down to throw on. It was one of the worst jobs by an OC I've ever seen, and people who laud it have their heads up their asses.

maher_tyler
12-03-2012, 07:08 PM
God I'm tired of hearing about what Manning did or did not audible into. Manning acts like he's calling an audible all the time, but just because he's calling out some random words doesn't mean he's actually calling an audible. If you think Manning is calling run audibles on all the stupid run calls we've had this season, you are certifiably insane.

And every time someone acts like McCoy did anything but undermine Tebow as a passer with his garbage half-ass option scheme, two receiver sets, and constant runs except when the game was all but lost, it makes me want to choke some one.

So yes I'm certain McCoy is an awful OC, and I really, really, really hope some idiot owner somewhere is too stupid to see it and hires him to be a head coach. I want the guy gone like a man on fire wants to be thrown in the ocean.

I agree. Only difference this year is we have a HoF QB at the helm. When we go 3-4 straight series in a row with no points, its usually because their is zero rhythm in the play calling. They keep trying to run Hillman between the tackles and it almost always ends in a no gain or loss. They take Moreno out and put him in on 2nd and short and got stuffed. Dumb! It happens every week. I will not miss McCoy if he gets hired some other place.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-03-2012, 09:49 PM
Hilarious!

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr03/2012/11/30/13/anigif_enhanced-buzz-31963-1354299284-1.gif

maven
12-03-2012, 10:49 PM
Peyton Manning has played on a team that won the Super Bowl. If this team accomplishes that feat, we can start this discussion.

Have to agree with this post.

extralife
12-03-2012, 11:19 PM
2005 Colts scared the hell out of me, 2004 Colts had Peyton in god mode, 2007 Colts had a statistically elite defense, 2006 Colts won the super bowl. At least one of those teams was better than this team. Take your pick.

Mogulseeker
12-03-2012, 11:48 PM
Yeah he is so bad he can't design offenses for his players. He just plays Madden and footage the plays. Teams are going to be interviewing him for HC he is so bad.

What are the chances Tom Moore is our OC next year?

theAPAOps5
12-04-2012, 12:25 AM
I stopped reading when you said my Tebow point made no sense. You don't take a young, developing QB and only ever let him throw on 3rd down or when the game was almost lost. In case you aren't aware, third down is the hardest down to throw on. It was one of the worst jobs by an OC I've ever seen, and people who laud it have their heads up their asses.

Well when it still takes him 30 seconds to read one side of the field on simplified play calling you have to be a genius to keep him in the game and still win. Your problem is you are delusional and think one of the ****tiest QBs in the league was being held back. Yet it was a smart OC who realized he had one of the best athletes in the league and used that. No ere is where you will just make false statements in reply, or use a smilie face like this....l ROFL! Because you have no real clue.

R8R H8R
12-04-2012, 12:53 AM
What are the chances Tom Moore is our OC next year?

If McCoy gets a HC gig next year, then the chances might be pretty good, I suppose. However, I personally would like to see Adam Gase get a shot at it. OTOH, it's probably PM's call anyway, don't you think? ;)

jerseyguy4
12-04-2012, 07:57 AM
What are the chances Tom Moore is our OC next year?
I love Moore, but he is 74. Time to pack it in and enjoy the grandkids (or great grandkids)

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-04-2012, 10:42 AM
What are the chances Tom Moore is our OC next year?

I'm not fan of Moore. Not because of his offenses. Its because of how he's trained the backups to Peyton Manning over the years. Moore has never developed a QB behind Manning to step into the starting roll...ever. I'd like the QB coach from Houston. Didn't the 3rd string QB win a playoff game for them? Of course they had a very good running game, so that made managing the game much easier. Just spitballing.

Edit: red. Stupid proof reading.

Mountain Bronco
12-04-2012, 10:44 AM
Did someone say "young developing QB" in reference to Tebow??????????????? BWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Not only should you not let Tebow throw on a regular basis, you should only let Tebow throw if the Steeler's are playing zero safety.

baja
12-04-2012, 10:46 AM
I'm fan of Moore. Not because of his offenses. Its because of how he's trained the backups to Peyton Manning over the years. Moore has never developed a QB behind Manning to step into the starting roll...ever. I'd like the QB coach from Houston. Didn't the 3rd string QB win a playoff game for them? Of course they had a very good running game, so that made managing the game much easier. Just spitballing.

I hope McCoy stays because I hate fixing what is not broken. A part of why Manning chose Denver was because of conversations he had with McCoy. Unfortunately McCoy is on a lot of short lists to become a head coach.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-04-2012, 03:00 PM
I hope McCoy stays because I hate fixing what is not broken. A part of why Manning chose Denver was because of conversations he had with McCoy. Unfortunately McCoy is on a lot of short lists to become a head coach.

Me either. I'd to see what he can do with Osi. But like you say he on a lot of peoples short list for HC. I know a lot of people would like to us hire from inside like QBC Gase. However, he's a McDumbass guy and to me all McDumbass guys are subject to review.

I have question for Gase. During the preseason Osi had one good game one ok game and one horrible game.

Mediator12
12-05-2012, 07:23 AM
I stopped reading when you said my Tebow point made no sense. You don't take a young, developing QB and only ever let him throw on 3rd down or when the game was almost lost. In case you aren't aware, third down is the hardest down to throw on. It was one of the worst jobs by an OC I've ever seen, and people who laud it have their heads up their asses.

And, that is your problem. You think your Tebow point makes sense. Here is why it does not:

1. McCoy was not tied to either of the offenses the Broncos ran last year, and had no offseason in order to install either one. The fact that Tebow did anything last year at all is a credit to the coaching of McCoy. He realized how Tebow could make the most impact and Severely limited his playcalling options with him.

2. He installed an offense that Tebow ran in College that he had never personally ran as a OC before. And, he put it together in 4 weeks. If you have ever coached football, you would understand how insanely hard that can be. Especially since you were running an entirely different offense with totally different parameters 2 weeks ago. He had to teach the rest of the offense the offense and simply let Tim run what he knew.

3. You must never have gameplanned before, or you would understand that it was not just McCoy who decided to run the ball on the first 2 downs most of the time. It was the entire Offensive staff with the blessing of John Fox. Fox would have veto power on those decisions and even the playcalls on gameday. There is a reason those guys wear headsets. Fox is a very conservative HC and he wanted to stay in games and give Tim a chance to win them at the end. Those issues you ascribe to McCoy, were really collaborated with Fox and his whole staff. They decided to be ultra conservative, because they saw how poorly Tim responded when the team was down and they had to chase the game with him throwing all the time (DET in week 8). And, what they did was effective.

4. Tebow was always going to be a project throwing the ball in the NFL. He struggles mightily in the short and intermediate routes because of the smaller windows and need for timing and accuracy. There was no way to build the timing in with those WR's on that short notice. He also struggled making NFL reads in the pocket and getting the ball out quickly. Why would you play to the weakness of a developing player as a Coach? So you could lose games and let him "develop"? No. Simply no. Negative outcomes are much worse in developing players than positive outcomes.

5. Finally, your premise is entirely off. The goal of every coach is to maximize the players strengths and let them play to it, not emphasize their weaknesses and develop them. Every coach has to play to win the next game, not make the player better in the NFL. That is up to the player. the player has to commit to spend the time, hone their craft, and improve. If the coach loses while developing players he is fired.

McCoy not only did a great Job of this, he got Tebow to Win games. Period. He found a way, when most guys would have failed to be effective. Was his playcalling predictable. Yes. Was it simple and conservative. Yes. Was it effective. Yes. The last point is all that matters in coaching. Wins matter. The team rallied around the persona and challenge of Tebow last year. He made them better, because there was no room for error! The defense elevated its play because they knew every point counted.

In short, McCoy is on all these short lists for HC because he has taken 3 different situations and been highly successful in making them work. That is the essence of good coaching. Look at New Orleans without Sean Payton this year. They are a shell of the team without his influence in the team. Look at GB without its stars around Rogers. This has been one of McCarthy's best coaching jobs to date, very similar to their SB with a 9-7 record. Same thing with Tom Coughlin and the Giants. 2 SB's with less than 10 win regular seasons.

Good Coaching is a lot more than what you want it to be.

BroncoBeavis
12-05-2012, 07:30 AM
2. He installed an offense that Tebow ran in College that he had never personally ran as a OC before. And, he put it together in 4 weeks.

This one's my favorite because it's so easy to dismantle.

Show me the 2009 Florida game where Timmy was under center, tight formation, blocking TE's in and 2 wide.

It should be easy to show Meyer's Florida team looking anything like the 2011 Denver Broncos since McCoy "used their offense" Show me where it happened.

Mediator12
12-05-2012, 07:32 AM
As for the original question, no this team is nowhere near the best team Manning has ever played. Having watched all of them here in INDY up close I feel quite confident in saying that. However, this is a very good team that is playing better in certain areas every week. It needs time, but we will see how good they are when they play at BAL.

I certainly think they could be contenders this year. They have obtained the first step, they are in the playoffs with a division win. Beat BAL, get a little help from HOU or SF with NE, and we could get a bye and a home game. Then, HOU could lose and DEN gets the AFCCG at home again. Let's just hope that would turn out better than last time!

Mediator12
12-05-2012, 07:36 AM
This one's my favorite because it's so easy to dismantle.

Show me the 2009 Florida game where Timmy was under center, tight formation, blocking TE's in and 2 wide.

It should be easy to show Meyer's Florida team looking anything like the 2011 Denver Broncos since McCoy "used their offense" Show me where it happened.

Its also easy as hell to repudiate that. They used Florida's offensive principles, not their playbook. They ran a college style Spread offense that Tebow was familiar in handling the reads. Of course they did not run the exact same offense as Florida, their personnel was entirely different and suited to what DEN ran. We are talking scheme here, not playbook and execution.

Bacchus
12-05-2012, 07:39 AM
As for the original question, no this team is nowhere near the best team Manning has ever played. Having watched all of them here in INDY up close I feel quite confident in saying that. However, this is a very good team that is playing better in certain areas every week. It needs time, but we will see how good they are when they play at BAL.

I certainly think they could be contenders this year. They have obtained the first step, they are in the playoffs with a division win. Beat BAL, get a little help from HOU or SF with NE, and we could get a bye and a home game. Then, HOU could lose and DEN gets the AFCCG at home again. Let's just hope that would turn out better than last time!

I kinda want to see Denver go down to Houston and kick their ass. Otherwise I like that scenario.

BroncoBeavis
12-05-2012, 07:42 AM
Its also easy as hell to repudiate that. They used Florida's offensive principles, not their playbook. They ran a college style Spread offense that Tebow was familiar in handling the reads. Of course they did not run the exact same offense as Florida, their personnel was entirely different and suited to what DEN ran. We are talking scheme here, not playbook and execution.

You do realize what the word "spread" in "spread offense" refers to don't you. It would be difficult to design an offense more completely at odds with Meyers' Florida spread option than what McCoy put together last year.

I'm not sure its possible to bunch a formation more tightly. Unless maybe you run all your plays out of Field Goal formation. :)

Mediator12
12-05-2012, 08:04 AM
You do realize what the word "spread" in "spread offense" refers to don't you. It would be difficult to design an offense more completely at odds with Meyers' Florida spread option than what McCoy put together last year.

I'm not sure its possible to bunch a formation more tightly. Unless maybe you run all your plays out of Field Goal formation. :)

I realize that the scheme is completely the same, yet the formations and what works for Florida and at the college level is completely different than what would work for DEN and the NFL. That is called adaptive coaching. The philosophy and the reads were the same and something Tebow could understand and keep very simple.

No, DEN did not run the playbook of Florida or even a lot of their formations. Never said that. I said they took the scheme with its simplified principles and Tebow having knowledge of the reads already and made it work in the NFL. In fact, the offense resembled CAR's Spread from Fox's days there, more than Florida's in formation.

The point being, Tebow was not going to be familiar with an NFL offense on short notice. So, McCoy adapted the College scheme from florida, not COPIED IT, adapted it and rolled it into what Fox had alredy been doing in CAR. That is great coaching. He gave Tebow something he could work with that was familiar, but was adapted for the next level of play in the NFL.

BroncoBeavis
12-05-2012, 08:38 AM
I realize that the scheme is completely the same, yet the formations and what works for Florida and at the college level is completely different than what would work for DEN and the NFL. That is called adaptive coaching. The philosophy and the reads were the same and something Tebow could understand and keep very simple.

No, DEN did not run the playbook of Florida or even a lot of their formations. Never said that. I said they took the scheme with its simplified principles and Tebow having knowledge of the reads already and made it work in the NFL. In fact, the offense resembled CAR's Spread from Fox's days there, more than Florida's in formation.

The point being, Tebow was not going to be familiar with an NFL offense on short notice. So, McCoy adapted the College scheme from florida, not COPIED IT, adapted it and rolled it into what Fox had alredy been doing in CAR. That is great coaching. He gave Tebow something he could work with that was familiar, but was adapted for the next level of play in the NFL.

So he "adapted" a spread shotgun offense designed to get as many defenders away from the ball as possible (for isolation like clearing one side of the floor in basketball) to one where as many people as possible are bunched around the ball at all times (like taking a pure point guard and bunching him up in the post with every other player on the floor surrounding him.)

You're abusing the word "adapted" at some point. I could show you 20 NFL offenses that had more in common with Florida than what McCoy did last season.

baja
12-05-2012, 08:40 AM
I realize that the scheme is completely the same, yet the formations and what works for Florida and at the college level is completely different than what would work for DEN and the NFL. That is called adaptive coaching. The philosophy and the reads were the same and something Tebow could understand and keep very simple.

No, DEN did not run the playbook of Florida or even a lot of their formations. Never said that. I said they took the scheme with its simplified principles and Tebow having knowledge of the reads already and made it work in the NFL. In fact, the offense resembled CAR's Spread from Fox's days there, more than Florida's in formation.

The point being, Tebow was not going to be familiar with an NFL offense on short notice. So, McCoy adapted the College scheme from florida, not COPIED IT, adapted it and rolled it into what Fox had alredy been doing in CAR. That is great coaching. He gave Tebow something he could work with that was familiar, but was adapted for the next level of play in the NFL.

Given the massive offensive retool you describe isn't a bit strange they were so hot to ship Orton to Miami. It would seem to make more sense for them to look to go with Orton. Odd.