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baja
11-24-2012, 07:40 AM
Time to evaluate the two drafts directed by Josh McDaniels for Broncos
POSTED: 11/24/2012 12:01:00 AM MSTBy Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post

Former Broncos coach Josh McDaniels (Denver Post file)
Today's question about the Broncos comes from Michael B. in Los Angeles. To submit a question for consideration, send an e-mail to The Denver Post's Jeff Legwold.

Q: Longtime displaced Broncos fan and I'm wondering what people inside the team really think of Josh McDaniels' drafts now that they are back to being a playoff team?

A: Michael, McDaniels' ill-fated two-year run as the Broncos' head coach and top voice in personnel matters can be seen on the current roster, both positively and negatively.

On the positive side, the two receivers McDaniels selected in the 2010 draft — Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker — are currently the team's top two receivers with 57 and 50 catches, respectively.

Both came into the 2010 draft with medical questions. Thomas had suffered a fractured foot training for the scouting combine that year and couldn't do a full workout for any team before that draft. Decker had missed much of his senior season at Minnesota after surgery to repair a Lisfranc injury in his left foot.

So, many teams pushed them both down the draft board because of that. Decker had also had a concussion to go with rib, ankle and shoulder injuries during his career with the Gophers. And Thomas has also since suffered a torn Achilles tendon and a hand injury in his career with the Broncos.




Read more: Time to evaluate the two drafts directed by Josh McDaniels for Broncos - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22054005/time-evaluate-two-drafts-directed-by-josh-mcdaniels?source=jBar#ixzz2D9fpLXPL
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

cutthemdown
11-24-2012, 07:49 AM
I'd say he's wrong it's not time. That time has passed and we have moved on. no one cares about all the players he drafted we had to cut anymore.

Rohirrim
11-24-2012, 07:53 AM
I'd say, as I said at the time, that trading three picks to move back up for Tebow was the biggest faceplant of McD's drafts.

baja
11-24-2012, 07:55 AM
I'd say, as I said at the time, that trading three picks to move back up for Tebow was the biggest faceplant of McD's drafts.

Turns out you were right but it was fun for 3/4 of a season.


He sure pissed away a bunch of high picks

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 07:58 AM
My grades for the Josh McDaniels drafts:

2009 Broncos Draft:
1 12 Knowshon Moreno - D
1 18 Robert Ayers - C
2 37 Alphonso Smith - F
2 48 Darcel McBath - F
2 64 Richard Quinn - F
4 114 David Bruton - B
4 132 Seth Olsen - F
5 141 Kenny McKinley - D
6 174 Tom Brandstater - C
7 225 Blake Schlueter - F

Overall Grade for 2009: F

2010:
1 22 Demaryius Thomas - A
1 25 Tim Tebow - C
2 45 Zane Beadles - B+
3 80 J.D. Walton - B
3 87 Eric Decker - A
5 137 Perrish Cox - D
6 183 Eric Olsen - D
7 225 Syd'Quan Thompson - C
7 232 Jammie Kirlew - F

Overall Grade for the 2010 draft: B

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2012, 08:02 AM
I'd say, as I said at the time, that trading three picks to move back up for Tebow was the biggest faceplant of McD's drafts.

Well those picks were manufactured earlier in the draft, so he was just positioning. Plus it depends how you want to measure success. Tim provided a very memorable season and a playoff home win.

baja
11-24-2012, 08:05 AM
2009 Broncos Draft:
1 12 Knowshon Moreno - D
1 18 Robert Ayers - C
2 37 Alphonso Smith - F
2 48 Darcel McBath - F
2 64 Richard Quinn - F
4 114 David Bruton - B
4 132 Seth Olsen - F
5 141 Kenny McKinley - not known (died)
6 174 Tom Brandstater - C
7 225 Blake Schlueter - C (to me all 6th and 7th rd picks are a crab shoot so a C is lowest possible)

Overall Grade for 2009: F

So sad to fail in a draft where we had two #1s, three #2s and two #4s.
2010:
1 22 Demaryius Thomas - A
1 25 Tim Tebow - C
2 45 Zane Beadles - B+
3 80 J.D. Walton - B
3 87 Eric Decker - A
5 137 Perrish Cox - D
6 183 Eric Olsen - C
7 225 Syd'Quan Thompson - C
7 232 Jammie Kirlew - C

Overall Grade for the 2010 draft: B

Basically agree though

comoose00
11-24-2012, 08:06 AM
My problem with his draft picks is the fact that he wasted so many of them.

v2micca
11-24-2012, 08:07 AM
Even giving McDaniels credit for taking Thomas and Decker, I would still only be able to give him a D+ at best. His gaffs include:

Drafting Moreno over Orakpo
Trading a 2010 First Round pick to draft Alphonso Smith
Robert Ayers over two other Pro Bowlers at positions of need (And if we are to believe Xanders, completely ignoring him on Clay Matthews)
Darcel McBath over LeSean McCoy
Richard Quinn, Seth Olsen, and the rest of the 2009 draft, none of which are still on the team.
Trading a 4th round pick for Lawrence Maroney(who was about to be cut) when Marshawn Lynch would have been had for the same price.

So, while the 2010 Draft did bring us our starting WRs and a Left Guard that finally has appeared to grow into the role in his 3rd year, It also saw us spending a 1st round pick on Tim Tebow, who we barely managed to flip for a 4th rounder 2 years later. McDaniels may have some skills, drafting was not among them. I'm just glad he was gone before the 2011 draft. I know it is early, but that draft already looks to be the strongest first round in the last decade. McDumbass would have traded us out of the first round for future picks.

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 08:09 AM
The 2009 draft in particular was disastrous -- possibly the worst draft in the history of the franchise, if not the NFL. Two 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders have never yielded so few returns.

Just for fun, here's who we could have taken with those picks, at the same slots:

1 12 Brian Orakpo, LB
1 18 Clay Matthews, LB
2 37 Jarius Byrd, S
2 48 Lesean McCoy, RB
2 64 Mike Wallace, WR

Rohirrim
11-24-2012, 08:12 AM
Well those picks were manufactured earlier in the draft, so he was just positioning. Plus it depends how you want to measure success. Tim provided a very memorable season and a playoff home win.

He tore this franchise apart! Yikes!

baja
11-24-2012, 08:12 AM
The 2009 draft in particular was disastrous -- possibly the worst draft in the history of the franchise, if not the NFL. Two 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders have never yielded so few returns.

Just for fun, here's who we could have taken with those picks, at the same slots:

1 12 Brian Orakpo, LB
1 18 Clay Matthews, LB
2 37 Jarius Byrd, S
2 48 Lesean McCoy, RB
2 64 Mike Wallace, WR

That's almost physically painful.

v2micca
11-24-2012, 08:15 AM
That's almost physically painful.

Yeah, and to make it worse, we could have had Marshawn Lynch over Lawrence Maroney in that ill-fated trade. Can you imagine, McCoy and Lynch both in our backfield. I will now go punch a wall.

Rohirrim
11-24-2012, 08:15 AM
That's almost physically painful.

Yeah. But then we would never have seen Von Miller. The coulda, woulda, shoulda game is fun to indulge in, but whattayagonnado?

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 08:18 AM
Yeah. But then we would never have seen Von Miller. The coulda, woulda, shoulda game is fun to indulge in, but whattayagonnado?

That's true... at the end of the day, this is the chain of events that led to the return of the once and future king (Elway), Von Miller, and Peyton Manning.

At the moment, I wouldn't have it any other way, I suppose.

spdirty
11-24-2012, 08:19 AM
What is nice is thinking about how far we have come in just 2 years. God Bless John Elway.

cutthemdown
11-24-2012, 08:19 AM
LOL Rho without Mcdaniels ruining our team we would not have picked high enough to get Von Miller. I like it man I like it. How come you won't give Bush JR credit for Obama. :)

SaveusElway15
11-24-2012, 08:35 AM
Douche...


http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/McDaniels-Fired.jpg

Punisher
11-24-2012, 09:00 AM
2010 draft was a solid draft. Oh yea Tebow excuse me while i put red lipstick on and take a few sleeping pills.

Natedog24
11-24-2012, 09:04 AM
The 2009 draft in particular was disastrous -- possibly the worst draft in the history of the franchise, if not the NFL. Two 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders have never yielded so few returns.

Just for fun, here's who we could have taken with those picks, at the same slots:

1 12 Brian Orakpo, LB
1 18 Clay Matthews, LB
2 37 Jarius Byrd, S
2 48 Lesean McCoy, RB
2 64 Mike Wallace, WR

Ugh, f*** McDouchebag

lolcopter
11-24-2012, 09:08 AM
Robert Ayers underrated
Eric Decker overrated

Lestat
11-24-2012, 09:09 AM
I'd say, as I said at the time, that trading three picks to move back up for Tebow was the biggest faceplant of McD's drafts.

no no, no no, no no, it always has been and always will be dealing a future first who ended up being Earl Thomas for a 2nd round pick to draft Alphonso Smith who barely spent two years with the team.

lolcopter
11-24-2012, 09:11 AM
no no, no no, no no, it always has been and always will be dealing a future first who ended up being Earl Thomas for a 2nd round pick to draft Alphonso Smith who barely spent two years with the team.

Especially when you consider we traded back like 3 times in order to pull off the tebow move

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 09:32 AM
no no, no no, no no, it always has been and always will be dealing a future first who ended up being Earl Thomas for a 2nd round pick to draft Alphonso Smith who barely spent two years with the team.

We'll have to just agree to disagree on what Josh McDaniel's biggest ****-up was... personally, I think it was trading two mid-3rd rounders for Richard Quinn, Medicine Woman.

Hamrob
11-24-2012, 09:36 AM
I'd have to give him a C- overall regarding drafts. About 1/3 of his picks panned out....and a few of them have a chance to be awesome.

But, you have to factor in...the fact that he totally dismantled one of the leagues best offenses and youngest to boot.

If he just would have added to what we already had...then we may have had something.....but, all he did was replace what we already had....and in most ways failed.

Together you have to give him an F overall! Worst period of time that I can remember as a Broncos Fan. Even worse than the Michelan Man years of Wade Phillips.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-24-2012, 09:41 AM
Tebow was a productive player as a Bronco. Alphonso Smith never amounted to anything. Both cost first round picks to acquire. Only a total moron would think the Tebow move was worse.

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 09:41 AM
I'd have to give him a C- overall regarding drafts. About 1/3 of his picks panned out....and a few of them have a chance to be awesome.

But, you have to factor in...the fact that he totally dismantled one of the leagues best offenses and youngest to boot.

If he just would have added to what we already had...then we may have had something.....but, all he did was replace what we already had....and in most ways failed.

Together you have to give him an F overall! Worst period of time that I can remember as a Broncos Fan. Even worse than the Michelan Man years of Wade Phillips.

We went 9-7 and 7-9 under Wade Phillips.

We went 8-8, then 3-10 before McDaniels was fired.

16-16 versus 11-18. The McDaniels era was quantifiably worse.

Punisher
11-24-2012, 09:45 AM
Robert Ayers underrated
Eric Decker overrated

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PBfTsR7Yi64/Tb9QH0iiuNI/AAAAAAAAAhY/1YuSmZ2CBPA/s1600/smh.gif

Lestat
11-24-2012, 09:49 AM
We'll have to just agree to disagree on what Josh McDaniel's biggest ****-up was... personally, I think it was trading two mid-3rd rounders for Richard Quinn, Medicine Woman.

that didn't have the ramifications of a high first though. the pick ended up being #14 overall. short of it being a top 5 pick there is nothing that could have been worse.

lolcopter
11-24-2012, 09:49 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PBfTsR7Yi64/Tb9QH0iiuNI/AAAAAAAAAhY/1YuSmZ2CBPA/s1600/smh.gif

Ayers is a solid defensive linemen who broncos fans expected Von miller type production from

Decker is a decent receiver who can be counted on to drop at least one pass a game

DT >>>>>> Decker
Stokley > Decker

oubronco
11-24-2012, 10:02 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 10:05 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/josh_mcdaniels(1).jpg

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 10:06 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

http://sportsfullcircle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/mc.jpg

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 10:06 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2009/11/josh-mcdaniels-f-bomb.jpg

Punisher
11-24-2012, 10:07 AM
Ayers is a solid defensive linemen who broncos fans expected Von miller type production from

Decker is a decent receiver who can be counted on to drop at least one pass a game

DT >>>>>> Decker
Stokley > Decker

Stokley drops passes to and Stokley isn't better than Decker ???

Ayers was a 1st round pick of course people expect a lot from him, and hes not underrated hes just an ok player.

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 10:07 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

http://www2.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/nfl_a_mcdaniels_300-1.jpg

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 10:09 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

http://cbssports.com/images/nfl/photogallery/Josh_McDaniels_Broncos_Video_Tape_Investigation.jp g

oubronco
11-24-2012, 10:09 AM
Beadie eyed little prick should've been taken out back and beatin to a pulp...I'm kinda disappointed in you guys that live in Denver and didn't do it

oubronco
11-24-2012, 10:12 AM
http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/joshmcdevil.jpg

oubronco
11-24-2012, 10:16 AM
It's pretty simple

http://www.drewlitton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/drew031809.gif

Lestat
11-24-2012, 10:28 AM
I said it when he was hired and i'll say it again "I Hate McDaniels"

i said it when it was rumored he was the leading candidate, i said it when he was hired, i said it when he was rumored to want Cassell, i said it when he traded Cutler, i said it when we had Orton announced as our starter, i said it when we started 6-0, i said it when he drafted Tebow, i said it when he was fired and i say it every time his name is mentioned or a image of him is shown.

i ****ing hate that little prick!

Rohirrim
11-24-2012, 10:32 AM
Tebow was a productive player as a Bronco. Alphonso Smith never amounted to anything. Both cost first round picks to acquire. Only a total moron would think the Tebow move was worse.

Well. You're the expert on that. :puff:

Dr. Broncenstein
11-24-2012, 10:40 AM
Well. You're the expert on that. :puff:

Lol. That you think Tebow was McJoshie's "biggest draft face plant" doesn't surprise me in the least. Only a total moron would think so.

Jay3
11-24-2012, 10:58 AM
You can always make a draft look bad by comparing players who you didn't take. It happens all the time in every draft.

The real test is just evaluating the players you did draft, and considering if the "hit rate" was high enough.

BowlenBall
11-24-2012, 11:06 AM
You can always make a draft look bad by comparing players who you didn't take. It happens all the time in every draft.

The real test is just evaluating the players you did draft, and considering if the "hit rate" was high enough.

Again, which is why the 2009 draft was historically bad, by any measure.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-24-2012, 11:06 AM
You can always make a draft look bad by comparing players who you didn't take. It happens all the time in every draft.

The real test is just evaluating the players you did draft, and considering if the "hit rate" was high enough.

You can also look at historical production of the players picked. For instance, Tebow led a 1-4 Broncos team to its first post season victory since 2005. Whereas Alphonso Smith cost a 14th pick to acquire and did literally nothing before being sent to Detroit for peanuts. Obviously Tebow was the bigger disappointment.

TheReverend
11-24-2012, 11:08 AM
I'd say, as I said at the time, that trading three picks to move back up for Tebow was the biggest faceplant of McD's drafts.

Ain't got **** on Alphonso

Knowshon and Ayers were far worse selections too if you look at draft value vs actual production.

errand
11-24-2012, 11:14 AM
Even worse than the Michelan Man years of Wade Phillips.


while Wade didn't have the greatest success, we did manage to make the playoffs in one of his two seasons as HC (wild card loss to Raiders 42-24)...and considering he drafted arguably our best K in Elam, he drafted Allen Aldridge who started on our SBXXXII winning team, Keith Burns who was a mainstay on special teams and decent back-up and arguably our greatest C in Tom Nalen, I don't understand why he gets maligned on here like he does.

Add in the free agents he signed like LT- Gary Zimmerman, P- Tom Rouen, Brian Habib,CB-Ray Crockett, and key contributors in one of the better blocking TE's in Dwayne Carswell DE - Harald Hasselback CB- Randy Hilliard....that's 11 players who helped the Broncos win back to back SB's....but yeah, let's say his tenure was almost as bad as McDaniels.

Sometimes I wonder if any of you clowns even know the history of the team at all.

bpc
11-24-2012, 11:24 AM
Can't ever give McD credit. He had 6'5" 230lb. D Thomas returning kicks. Dude was so stupid and terrible at all things football related.

baja
11-24-2012, 11:39 AM
Can't ever give McD credit. He had 6'5" 230lb. D Thomas returning kicks. Dude was so stupid and terrible at all things football related.

God ain't that the truth.

I could not believe my eyes when I saw DT returning kicks

TheReverend
11-24-2012, 11:41 AM
You can also look at historical production of the players picked. For instance, Tebow led a 1-4 Broncos team to its first post season victory since 2005. Whereas Alphonso Smith cost a 14th pick to acquire and did literally nothing before being sent to Detroit for peanuts. Obviously Tebow was the bigger disappointment.

Hate to do this Doc, but you're way off base, man.








































Peanuts would've been WAY more productive than Dan Gronkowski.

Mogulseeker
11-24-2012, 11:55 AM
Baja and BroncoRob have morphed into one.

Mogulseeker
11-24-2012, 11:57 AM
It's pretty simple

http://www.drewlitton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/drew031809.gif

Where's part three where Elway, Fox and Manning come in and glue the pieces back together?

Dr. Broncenstein
11-24-2012, 12:09 PM
Bwahaha TGN is neg rep lurking this thread. What a pathetic little biatch you are. Timmy Tryhard really did a number on you. Haven't heard from you since the playoff win. I guess someone must have talked you off the ledge.

Rohirrim
11-24-2012, 12:14 PM
Lol. That you think Tebow was McJoshie's "biggest draft face plant" doesn't surprise me in the least. Only a total moron would think so.

Well. I try. Of course, I don't play a doctor on the interwebs.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
11-24-2012, 12:16 PM
Are you guys kidding me!?!? You guys can pick Shanahan. two worst draft and still would be better than what McDumbass did.

TheReverend
11-24-2012, 12:18 PM
Well. I try. Of course, I don't play a doctor on the interwebs.

Go sit in the corner, Roh

Dr. Broncenstein
11-24-2012, 12:20 PM
Well. I try. Of course, I don't play a doctor on the interwebs.

So you are going with Tebow was a bigger mistake than Smith? I'm not at all surprised, given you are the barometer of wrong.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
11-24-2012, 12:24 PM
Go sit in the corner, Roh

Ro is in a timeout.

KipCorrington25
11-24-2012, 12:27 PM
The Alphonso Smith debacle is a perfect (and the only) example you need as to why McCheat was a worthless moron. Just the arrogance to think you can outsmart every other organization and then to cut bait and trade the guy for a former 7th round 4th string tight end a year later... it's shocking really when you consider what a moron this arrogant prick really is.

Hamrob
11-24-2012, 12:28 PM
while Wade didn't have the greatest success, we did manage to make the playoffs in one of his two seasons as HC (wild card loss to Raiders 42-24)...and considering he drafted arguably our best K in Elam, he drafted Allen Aldridge who started on our SBXXXII winning team, Keith Burns who was a mainstay on special teams and decent back-up and arguably our greatest C in Tom Nalen, I don't understand why he gets maligned on here like he does.

Add in the free agents he signed like LT- Gary Zimmerman, P- Tom Rouen, Brian Habib,CB-Ray Crockett, and key contributors in one of the better blocking TE's in Dwayne Carswell DE - Harald Hasselback CB- Randy Hilliard....that's 11 players who helped the Broncos win back to back SB's....but yeah, let's say his tenure was almost as bad as McDaniels.

Sometimes I wonder if any of you clowns even know the history of the team at all.Excuse me your holliness! When we moved from Dan Reaves to Wade Phillips it was easy enough for all to see...what a "Stop-gap" coach Wade Phillips was. If you contest that...then, you're the ****ing idiot that knows **** about Broncos history!

Dr. Broncenstein
11-24-2012, 12:32 PM
The Alphonso Smith debacle is a perfect (and the only) example you need as to why McCheat was a worthless moron. Just the arrogance to think you can outsmart every other organization and then to cut bait and trade the guy for a former 7th round 4th string tight end a year later... it's shocking really when you consider what a moron this arrogant prick really is.

He traded away a 26 year old pro bowl quarterback in the process, only after getting being rejected on a deal for Matt Cassel. Obviously, Tebow was the biggest mistake.

Old Dude
11-24-2012, 12:39 PM
It's pretty simple

http://www.drewlitton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/drew031809.gif

One could make a case that the Broncos really needed to be blown up following the 08-09 season and, though certainly not planned, they brought in just the guy to do it.

TheReverend
11-24-2012, 12:56 PM
One could make a case that the Broncos really needed to be blown up following the 08-09 season and, though certainly not planned, they brought in just the guy to do it.

I implore you to attempt to make that case.

Crushaholic
11-24-2012, 12:57 PM
But, But, But...Josh McDaniels set us back TWO DECADES! We'll never recover! Hilarious!

Lestat
11-24-2012, 01:10 PM
You can also look at historical production of the players picked. For instance, Tebow led a 1-4 Broncos team to its first post season victory since 2005. Whereas Alphonso Smith cost a 14th pick to acquire and did literally nothing before being sent to Detroit for peanuts. Obviously Tebow was the bigger disappointment.

i hope Hillis screwed McDaniels wife so hard he rearranged her uterus.

gyldenlove
11-24-2012, 01:13 PM
The 2009 draft in particular was disastrous -- possibly the worst draft in the history of the franchise, if not the NFL. Two 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders have never yielded so few returns.

Just for fun, here's who we could have taken with those picks, at the same slots:

1 12 Brian Orakpo, LB
1 18 Clay Matthews, LB
2 37 Jarius Byrd, S
2 48 Lesean McCoy, RB
2 64 Mike Wallace, WR

That is cherry picking, the 2009 draft was extremely weak across the board. 5 picks in the top 2 rounds should have yielded 2 starters, and the epic failure of this draft can be attributed to the shortened draft prep caused by firing the Goodmen halfway during preparation and going into the draft with two personnel guys who had no experience and an ultra short draft board.

Lestat
11-24-2012, 01:13 PM
One could make a case that the Broncos really needed to be blown up following the 08-09 season and, though certainly not planned, they brought in just the guy to do it.

you're absolutely *record scratch* i'm sorry, but say what now?
how do you figure that? the defense was atrocious but the offense was straight. nothing needed to be done to it, that's why so many wanted the next coach to be a defensive guru and not mess with the O.

we got our wish for a defensive head coach later on with Fox.

Lestat
11-24-2012, 01:14 PM
But, But, But...Josh McDaniels set us back TWO DECADES! We'll never recover! Hilarious!

Elway as a rookie had more sense in his pinky finger than McDaniels during his entire reign as GM and Coach.

uplink
11-24-2012, 01:26 PM
His 1st draft was terrible, 2nd not bad. He did the broncos a big service getting rid of Cutler and Marshall. The stars on the team need to be team players, with good attitudes, who show up to play each week (especially in the big games). Really the broncos are would have been better off even if they got nothing at all for Cutler and Marshall (Marshall would be okay to have only if you have a QB like Manning, Brady, or Brees to keep him in line).

Play2win
11-24-2012, 01:26 PM
Sometimes you have to de-construct first– you got to tear it all down, before you can really build something worthwhile. I think it was at that point, in Shanny's last few years here.

And whatever happened, however it did happen, Who the **** cares– we got PFM now!!!

ZONA
11-24-2012, 01:29 PM
Well we do have to thank Josh for 1 thing, he did run much overrated Jay Cutler out of town. Jay obviously has a huge arm but he lacks so many more important things you need from an elite QB. I mean, just look at Manning, after sitting out an entire year, 4 neck surgeries, playing at 36 with still not full nerve generation in his throwing arm, and he's twice the QB Cutler is, who should be in his prime. If Cutler were here, I'm sure we'd be stuck in mediocrity. The melt down led to Elway coming back, putting together a real team of people who know what they F they are doing. Some guys should never be anything more then coordinators. They're good at that, but it doesn't mean they are HC material. I don't think Josh was ready for HC, but he sure as hell wasn't ready to have control over everything. Bad move by Bowlen, very bad.

Mogulseeker
11-24-2012, 01:33 PM
He traded away a 26 year old pro bowl quarterback in the process, only after getting being rejected on a deal for Matt Cassel. Obviously, Tebow was the biggest mistake.

I never liked the Tebow pick... and losing Cutler suked.

I'd rather have a 36 year old Manning now than a 29 year old Cutler, though.

Play2win
11-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Basically, we got Manning now.

Whatever the cost, it was worth it.

Play2win
11-24-2012, 01:35 PM
I never liked the Tebow pick... and losing Cutler suked.

I'd rather have a 36 year old Manning now than a 29 year old Cutler, though.


Only, Slightly....

gyldenlove
11-24-2012, 01:38 PM
My grades for the Josh McDaniels drafts:

2009 Broncos Draft:
1 12 Knowshon Moreno - F
1 18 Robert Ayers - C
2 37 Alphonso Smith - F
2 48 Darcel McBath - F
2 64 Richard Quinn - F
4 114 David Bruton - C
4 132 Seth Olsen - F
5 141 Kenny McKinley - F
6 174 Tom Brandstater - F
7 225 Blake Schlueter - F

Overall Grade for 2009: F

2010:
1 22 Demaryius Thomas - A+
1 25 Tim Tebow - C
2 45 Zane Beadles - B+
3 80 J.D. Walton - A
3 87 Eric Decker - A
5 137 Perrish Cox - C
6 183 Eric Olsen - D
7 225 Syd'Quan Thompson - D-
7 232 Jammie Kirlew - F

Overall Grade for the 2010 draft: A[/QUOTE]

There are roughly 25 starters on an NFL team counting nickel CB, slot WR, 2nd TE, FB. If the average NFL career is about 9 years, that means you need about 2.5 starters per draft year including undrafted free agents, plus another 2.5 backups including special teamers.

The 2009 draft was horrendous in every way imaginable. Not a single starter was drafted in 10 picks, 5 of which were in the top 2 rounds, that is pretty much a worst case scenario. This draft netted 1 special teamer and 1 backup, for all purposes I will not count Moreno as a backup as I doubt he would find employment if he was cut today. Britton Colquitt was from this draft but is not counted as he was not drafted.

The 2010 draft is a whole different story. 4 outright quality starters, 2 backups with other teams and Tim Tebow who will always hold an awkward place with both Broncos and Jets fans. This draft netted more starters than one would expect, and also enough backups to meet the criteria - Chris Harris is not counted despite also being from this draft year.

I believe the 2010 draft to be in contention with the 2011 and 2006 drafts as the best Broncos draft since 1990.

errand
11-24-2012, 01:51 PM
Excuse me your holliness! When we moved from Dan Reaves to Wade Phillips it was easy enough for all to see...what a "Stop-gap" coach Wade Phillips was. If you contest that...then, you're the ****ing idiot that knows **** about Broncos history!

nobody contested that Wade was hired because Mike turned Bowlen down...everyone knows that.

But that wasn't what you stated...you said Wade Phillips regime was almost as bad as McDaniels. You did not say that Wade was a stop gap.

And while he may have been considered a stop gap, it doesn't diminish his contributions as our HC where he drafted or signed 11 players who helped us win back to back SB's.

But how does 16-17 including playoff loss equate to being almost as bad as 11-17 with no playoffs and his drafts that are laughed at on here all the time?

errand
11-24-2012, 01:58 PM
But, But, But...Josh McDaniels set us back TWO DECADES! We'll never recover! Hilarious!

Ends up it only took us 16 games to recover.....

Blueflame
11-24-2012, 02:46 PM
How tragic is it that he made so many bad coaching decisions that we're now reduced to bickering over which one was the worst?

Giving up a 1st rounder to move up in the 2nd round to take Alphonso Smith... and then letting Smith go to Detoilet for nothing... was the one that ticked me off the most. But then... there is the fact that drafting Tebow also put the team under the intense glare of media attention as well as bringing the circus to town and creating a QB controversy. I'm very thankful that Elway came on board and set things back into order.

baja
11-24-2012, 02:55 PM
His 1st draft was terrible, 2nd not bad. He did the broncos a big service getting rid of Cutler and Marshall. The stars on the team need to be team players, with good attitudes, who show up to play each week (especially in the big games). Really the broncos are would have been better off even if they got nothing at all for Cutler and Marshall (Marshall would be okay to have only if you have a QB like Manning, Brady, or Brees to keep him in line).

That is his one saving grace. If he had used those picks better, considering what happened after he left, Elway, Manning & Fox, it might have been worth it. Hell it was worth it. I love this team & FO

✡✡ JOSHUA ✡✡
11-24-2012, 02:58 PM
4 114 David Bruton - C

What do people expect out of a fourth round pick? A good chunk of them are out of the league by their fourth year.

Bruton is at least a B-.

He's a special teams ace and one of the very best in the league at what he does.

baja
11-24-2012, 03:00 PM
Well we do have to thank Josh for 1 thing, he did run much overrated Jay Cutler out of town. Jay obviously has a huge arm but he lacks so many more important things you need from an elite QB. I mean, just look at Manning, after sitting out an entire year, 4 neck surgeries, playing at 36 with still not full nerve generation in his throwing arm, and he's twice the QB Cutler is, who should be in his prime. If Cutler were here, I'm sure we'd be stuck in mediocrity. The melt down led to Elway coming back, putting together a real team of people who know what they F they are doing. Some guys should never be anything more then coordinators. They're good at that, but it doesn't mean they are HC material. I don't think Josh was ready for HC, but he sure as hell wasn't ready to have control over everything. Bad move by Bowlen, very bad.

If McD didn't run Cutler & Marshall out of town Elway would have. besides if Josh hadn't done that we might have been just good enough that he'd still be here and we'd be a 9 & 7 team saying we are a player of two away just like we said the last several years with Shanny.

lolcopter
11-24-2012, 03:00 PM
And how, exactly, does JD Walton get an A

ColoradoDarin
11-24-2012, 03:07 PM
And how, exactly, does JD Walton get an A

The well known Peyton Manning effect.

baja
11-24-2012, 03:07 PM
We had two bad years under McD, that caused a string of events that caused us to have one of the best teams in the NFL with a very bright future. It could be a lot worse, we could be the Chiefs.

24champ
11-24-2012, 03:12 PM
Problem with the McD era is that McD couldn't develop what he drafted. He didn't have a good staff around him especially after Nolan was let go. McD micromanged everything and there should have been a better organizational structure in place when you have such a young coach. Bowlen/Ellis really dropped the ball on that one.

Bigdawg26
11-24-2012, 03:20 PM
And how, exactly, does JD Walton get an A

I wanted to know that one too!

gyldenlove
11-24-2012, 03:26 PM
What do people expect out of a fourth round pick? A good chunk of them are out of the league by their fourth year.

Bruton is at least a B-.

He's a special teams ace and one of the very best in the league at what he does.

A guy who is very good at being on the field for up to 10 plays per game has the same value of a guy who is very good at being a dime CB or 4th DT.

Husky Jerk
11-24-2012, 03:30 PM
The 2010 draft probably had more to do with Matt Russell than anything McDip**** contributed. I believe he became head of college scouting right after the 2009 draft. Also took charge of pro scouting this year. Russell washed his Patriot stink off on the Eagles first apparently.

lolcopter
11-24-2012, 03:31 PM
A guy who is very good at being on the field for up to 10 plays per game has the same value of a guy who is very good at being a dime CB or 4th DT.

Not even close to bring true. Trindon Holiday instantly makes this team better. Losing Bruton would be a huge blow to our special teams. I'll take the guys who make an impact with their ten plays over the depth guys who do not.


How does JD waltron grade out as an A again?

Also not sure the average NFL career is 9 years... prob more like 3

Lestat
11-24-2012, 03:40 PM
How tragic is it that he made so many bad coaching decisions that we're now reduced to bickering over which one was the worst?

Giving up a 1st rounder to move up in the 2nd round to take Alphonso Smith... and then letting Smith go to Detoilet for nothing... was the one that ticked me off the most. But then... there is the fact that drafting Tebow also put the team under the intense glare of media attention as well as bringing the circus to town and creating a QB controversy. I'm very thankful that Elway came on board and set things back into order.

yeah but Tebow also ramped up national attention on us. got us some games on national TV and sold tickets and jersey's like a mother.

he wasn't a great pick but far from the worst. don't like using a first on him and never did.

Blueflame
11-24-2012, 04:03 PM
yeah but Tebow also ramped up national attention on us. got us some games on national TV and sold tickets and jersey's like a mother.

he wasn't a great pick but far from the worst. don't like using a first on him and never did.

We're getting more national attention now (with Manning) than we did last year (with Tebow)... and more of our games are nationally televised simply because the NFL's audience in general wants to see one of the league's superstars. Yeah, a lot of Tebow jerseys were sold (and a lot of Tebow Jest jerseys have been sold too) but then, we're seeing a lot of orange n' blue Manning jerseys as well.

And again, the move I hated most was giving up a (2010) first rounder to move up in the (2009) second round. Only an idiot or a novice does that. I can't think of a single veteran HC who would have.

✡✡ JOSHUA ✡✡
11-24-2012, 04:03 PM
A guy who is very good at being on the field for up to 10 plays per game has the same value of a guy who is very good at being a dime CB or 4th DT.

Your expectations are way too high for a fourth round pick.

Melton, Hartline and Lang were pretty darn good picks, but none of them were available at the Broncos selection.

I see a lot of guys on this list that are just trying to hang on in the NFL or are role players.

When I look at the list, Bruton is easily one of the top 10-12 selections of the round. That puts him at B- grade like I indicated. That's not an average pick among this group.


101. Dallas: Stephen McGee, QB Out of football
102. Kansas City: Donald Washington, CB Out of football
103. St. Louis: Darell Scott, DT out of football
104: Cleveland: Kaluka Maiava, LB
105: Chicago: Henry Melton, DT
106. Cincinnati: Jonathan Luigs, C out of football
107. Jacksonville: Mike Thomas, WR (now with DET)
108. Miami: Brian Hartline, WR
109: Green Bay: T.J. Lang, OG
110: Dallas: Victor Butler, LB
111: Carolina: Mike Goodson, RB (now with OAK)
112: Houston: Glover Quin, S
113: San Diego: Vaughn Martin, DL
114: Denver: David Bruton, S
115: Detroit: Sammie Lee Hill, DT
116: New Orleans: Chip Vaughn, S out of football
117: Tampa Bay: Kyle Moore, DE (now with BUF)
118: New Orleans: Stanley Arnoux, LB out of football
119: Chicago: D.J. Moore, CB
120: Dallas: Brandon Williams, LB (now with ARZ)
121: Buffalo: Shawn Nelson, TE out of football
122: Houston: Anthony Hill, TE (now with IND)
123: New England: Rich Ohrnberger, OG (now with ARZ)
124: Oakland: Louis Murphy, WR (now with CAR)
125: Atlanta: Lawrence Sidbury, DE
126: Oakland: Slade Norris, LB (Now with DET FOURTH TEAM!!!)
127: Indianapolis: Austin Collie, WR
128: Indianapolis: Tony Fiammeta, FB (now with NE)
129: New York: Andre Brown, RB
130: Tennessee: Gerald McRath, LB
131: Arizona: Greg Toler, CB
132: Denver: Seth Olsen, G (now with IND)
133: San Diego: Tyronne Green, G
134: San Diego: Gartrell Johnson, RB out of football
135: Tennessee: Troy Kropog, OG Vikings practice squad
136: Indianapolis: Terrance Taylor, DT Arena football

Lestat
11-24-2012, 04:05 PM
We're getting more national attention now (with Manning) than we did last year (with Tebow)... and more of our games are nationally televised simply because the NFL's audience in general wants to see one of the league's superstars. Yeah, a lot of Tebow jerseys were sold (and a lot of Tebow Jest jerseys have been sold too) but then, we're seeing a lot of orange n' blue Manning jerseys as well.

And again, the move I hated most was giving up a (2010) first rounder to move up in the (2009) second round. Only an idiot or a novice does that. I can't think of a single veteran HC who would have.

i hated drafting Tebow and love having Manning. i was just pointing out that the media wildfire also helped us out a bit.

baja
11-24-2012, 04:08 PM
We're getting more national attention now (with Manning) than we did last year (with Tebow)... and more of our games are nationally televised simply because the NFL's audience in general wants to see one of the league's superstars. Yeah, a lot of Tebow jerseys were sold (and a lot of Tebow Jest jerseys have been sold too) but then, we're seeing a lot of orange n' blue Manning jerseys as well.

And again, the move I hated most was giving up a (2010) first rounder to move up in the (2009) second round. Only an idiot or a novice does that. I can't think of a single veteran HC who would have.


There must have been 10,000 jerseys at Qualcom in SD with 18 on them. They were everywhere, most a Denver jersey but a lot from Indy and Tenn.

errand
11-24-2012, 04:42 PM
I wanted to know that one too!

Well considering you think Jeremiah Johnson is a better RB than anyone else we have left, do you really think you should laugh at anyone else's opinion of talent?

Lestat
11-24-2012, 04:45 PM
Well considering you think Jeremiah Johnson is a better RB than anyone else we have left, do you really think you should laugh at anyone else's opinion of talent?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8yjkh97tZ1rahd26o1_500.gif

Blueflame
11-24-2012, 05:00 PM
i hated drafting Tebow and love having Manning. i was just pointing out that the media wildfire also helped us out a bit.

There's no doubt about that... however, any time that a QB controversy exists, it does have some effects on locker room cohesion; typically not in a positive way. Some remarks that a few Broncos players have made since Tebow was traded to the Jest have indicated that it might not have been all unicorns and rainbows and a capella renditions of Kumbaya in the locker room last year.

gyldenlove
11-24-2012, 05:09 PM
Not even close to bring true. Trindon Holiday instantly makes this team better. Losing Bruton would be a huge blow to our special teams. I'll take the guys who make an impact with their ten plays over the depth guys who do not.


How does JD waltron grade out as an A again?

Also not sure the average NFL career is 9 years... prob more like 3

Your point is that losing a player who is on the field is a blow to the team? I think you are right about that, but losing Bruton wouldn't be any worse than losing Leonhard, Trevarthan, Unrein or Brooking.

There are 15-20 good centers in the entire NFL - Walton is one of them, center is the 2nd most difficult position to draft on offense behind QB. Since Walton went down our rush offense has been down, despite having a few games with Chris Kuper at RG instead of Ramirez which is clearly an upgrade.

The median career length of an NFL starter is roughly 7 years, but enough outliers like Champ Bailey and Peyton Manning drive up the average, which is why you need to replace your starters at a clip of around 2.5 per year.

gyldenlove
11-24-2012, 05:35 PM
Your expectations are way too high for a fourth round pick.

Melton, Hartline and Lang were pretty darn good picks, but none of them were available at the Broncos selection.

I see a lot of guys on this list that are just trying to hang on in the NFL or are role players.

When I look at the list, Bruton is easily one of the top 10-12 selections of the round. That puts him at B- grade like I indicated. That's not an average pick among this group.


101. Dallas: Stephen McGee, QB Out of football
102. Kansas City: Donald Washington, CB Out of football
103. St. Louis: Darell Scott, DT out of football
104: Cleveland: Kaluka Maiava, LB
105: Chicago: Henry Melton, DT
106. Cincinnati: Jonathan Luigs, C out of football
107. Jacksonville: Mike Thomas, WR (now with DET)
108. Miami: Brian Hartline, WR
109: Green Bay: T.J. Lang, OG
110: Dallas: Victor Butler, LB
111: Carolina: Mike Goodson, RB (now with OAK)
112: Houston: Glover Quin, S
113: San Diego: Vaughn Martin, DL
114: Denver: David Bruton, S
115: Detroit: Sammie Lee Hill, DT
116: New Orleans: Chip Vaughn, S out of football
117: Tampa Bay: Kyle Moore, DE (now with BUF)
118: New Orleans: Stanley Arnoux, LB out of football
119: Chicago: D.J. Moore, CB
120: Dallas: Brandon Williams, LB (now with ARZ)
121: Buffalo: Shawn Nelson, TE out of football
122: Houston: Anthony Hill, TE (now with IND)
123: New England: Rich Ohrnberger, OG (now with ARZ)
124: Oakland: Louis Murphy, WR (now with CAR)
125: Atlanta: Lawrence Sidbury, DE
126: Oakland: Slade Norris, LB (Now with DET FOURTH TEAM!!!)
127: Indianapolis: Austin Collie, WR
128: Indianapolis: Tony Fiammeta, FB (now with NE)
129: New York: Andre Brown, RB
130: Tennessee: Gerald McRath, LB
131: Arizona: Greg Toler, CB
132: Denver: Seth Olsen, G (now with IND)
133: San Diego: Tyronne Green, G
134: San Diego: Gartrell Johnson, RB out of football
135: Tennessee: Troy Kropog, OG Vikings practice squad
136: Indianapolis: Terrance Taylor, DT Arena football

You say 10 from the top puts you at B-? considering 10 from the bottom is still an F, that must by the by the no child left behind standard of grading. Sadly there are no attendance marks in the NFL.

2011: Quinton Carter, Julius Thomas
2009: David Bruton, Seth Olsen
2008: Kory Lichtensteiger, JMFW
2007: Marcus Thomas
2006: Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Dominik Hixon
2003: Quintin Griffin, Nick Eason, Bryant Mcneal
2002: Sam Brandon

10 years worth of Broncos 4th rounders. Of that group Lichtensteiger, Marshall and Dumervil are starters and Carter would probably be one if he was healthy. Hixon, Bruton, Olsen and Thomas are still in the league (but for how much longer that is the case for Thomas and Olsen is difficult to say). JMFW, Griffin, Eason, Mcneal, Marcus Thomas and Brandon are all long gone.

That makes 7 players out of football, 3 starters, 1 contributing depth player (Hixon), 1 backup (Olsen), 1 special teamer (Bruton) and 1 presumed starter (Carter).

A+ for Marshall and Dumervil
B+ for Lichtensteiger
B for Carter
B- for Hixon
C for Bruton
D for Olsen (I got this wrong in my initial post, got him confused with Eric Olsen)

lolcopter
11-24-2012, 06:32 PM
Your point is that losing a player who is on the field is a blow to the team? I think you are right about that, but losing Bruton wouldn't be any worse than losing Leonhard, Trevarthan, Unrein or Brooking.

There are 15-20 good centers in the entire NFL - Walton is one of them, center is the 2nd most difficult position to draft on offense behind QB. Since Walton went down our rush offense has been down, despite having a few games with Chris Kuper at RG instead of Ramirez which is clearly an upgrade.

The median career length of an NFL starter is roughly 7 years, but enough outliers like Champ Bailey and Peyton Manning drive up the average, which is why you need to replace your starters at a clip of around 2.5 per year.


Bruton is one of the best special teams gunners in the league and Walton is a below average C who is worse than Koppen

✡✡ JOSHUA ✡✡
11-24-2012, 07:02 PM
You say 10 from the top puts you at B-? considering 10 from the bottom is still an F, that must by the by the no child left behind standard of grading. Sadly there are no attendance marks in the NFL.

2011: Quinton Carter, Julius Thomas
2009: David Bruton, Seth Olsen
2008: Kory Lichtensteiger, JMFW
2007: Marcus Thomas
2006: Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Dominik Hixon
2003: Quintin Griffin, Nick Eason, Bryant Mcneal
2002: Sam Brandon

10 years worth of Broncos 4th rounders. Of that group Lichtensteiger, Marshall and Dumervil are starters and Carter would probably be one if he was healthy. Hixon, Bruton, Olsen and Thomas are still in the league (but for how much longer that is the case for Thomas and Olsen is difficult to say). JMFW, Griffin, Eason, Mcneal, Marcus Thomas and Brandon are all long gone.

That makes 7 players out of football, 3 starters, 1 contributing depth player (Hixon), 1 backup (Olsen), 1 special teamer (Bruton) and 1 presumed starter (Carter).

A+ for Marshall and Dumervil
B+ for Lichtensteiger
B for Carter
B- for Hixon
C for Bruton
D for Olsen (I got this wrong in my initial post, got him confused with Eric Olsen)

Please! 10/36 is hardly a no child left behind standard of grading.

Marshall and Dumervil are once in a generation fourth round picks. One would have to go back to Rick Upchurch, Tiny Tom Jackson and Lyle Alzado to find two comparable hits in that round.

Lichensteiger and Hixon were hits, but what have they done for the Broncos?

Bruton is in his fourth year as a Bronco, he has twice as much time accrued as those two in a Denver uniform.

Bottom line, good special teams players are a part of a championship level team and you have to find them somehow. A fourth round pick is not a bad investment for a top notch special teams specialist who brings tenure to your organization. Detron Smith, who made the Pro Bowl as a special teamer in 1999, was drafted as a fullback with us and he rarely contributed in that area. But he played an integral role on those Super Bowl title teams as Mike Shanahan dubbed him, "the human bowling ball" for his licks in special teams coverage.

No1BroncoFan
11-24-2012, 07:07 PM
We'll have to just agree to disagree on what Josh McDaniel's biggest ****-up was... personally, I think it was trading two mid-3rd rounders for Richard Quinn, Medicine Woman.

C'mon. We all know McDip****'s biggest ****-up was accepting a job he was in no way ready for.

uplink
11-24-2012, 07:09 PM
I thought Nick Eason was still playing for the Cards? He wasn't a bust since he stayed in the league all these years and has been playing.

Old Dude
11-24-2012, 07:37 PM
I implore you to attempt to make that case.

Sure. Why not?

Denver finished 8-8 but it was an 8-8 on an elevator headed down.

Denver’s defense finished that year ranked 29th in yards surrendered and 30th in points allowed. By definition, one of the worst three in the league.

The takeaway/giveaway ratio was -17, ranked 31st in the league.

The final point differential was -78 (25th in the league)

Only three Broncos made it to the pro-bowl that year: Casey Weigmann, Cutler and Marshall, and as we have discovered since, Cutler and Marshall were both were catastrophic head-cases. Cutler still throws far too many interceptions and is known primarily for his pouting. Marshall did his best to get his butt traded from Denver, and he was already a problem under Shanahan. He was also a bust in Miami. This year, he may be finally coming around in Chicago, but I wouldn’t want to bet on it. And it’s just a matter of time before he draws another another off-the-field suspension. To repeat, other than Weigmann, these were our only pro-bowlers that year.

Here’s a list of roster disappointments and outright busts from that year: Jarvis Moss; Jamie Winborn; Marquand Manuel; Nate Webster; Dre’ Bly; Boss Bailey; Josh Bell; John Engelberger; Marlon McCree; Dewayne Robertson; Chad Mustard; Josh Barrett; Calvin Lowry; Vernon Fox; Nic Clemons; Jack MF Williams; Louis Green; Roderick Rogers; Nate Jackson; Niko Koutouvides; Josh Shaw; Andre Hall; Keary Colbert; Herana-Daz Jones; Darrell Jackson; Cory Boyd; Chad Jackson; P.J. Pope; Cliff Russell; Patrick Ramsey; Michael Pittman, Kenny Peterson and Glenn Martinez.

Not exactly names that struck fear into the rest of the league. That’s more than half the roster.

I could probably add Tim Crowder, Ryan Torain, Kory Lichtensteiner, Karl Paymah, Tyler Polumbus, and Hamza Abdullah to that list, although I guess they eventually found homes on some other team’s rotation. None of them ever had any impact here.

I could easily make the case that Tatum Bell and Ben Hamilton were over the hill. Bell was already out the NFL when the Broncos had to bring him back. Hamilton was a formerly solid player who got concussed too many times.

Selvin Young turned out to be a flash in the pan. Denver’s best running back was arguably Peyton Hillis. That says a lot right there.

Denver’s best defensive lineman that year was Ebenezer Ekuban – decent run-stopper, but slow on the pass rush.

Eddie Royal never really lived up to expectations. Nor did Marcus Thomas. I could make the same case about Ryan Harris. Daniel Graham was vastly overpaid. Jeb Putzier and Tony Scheffler had problems staying healthy – or – in Putzier’s case – conscious.

The real talent on that that team was pretty limited: Ryan Clady (just a rookie), a young Chris Kuper; a young Elvis Dumervil (5 sacks on the year), DJ Williams (still controversial), Wesley Woodyard; Spencer Larsen (a Swiss army knife), Mario Haggan (borderline backup); Matt Prater; an aging Casey Weigmann (see above), Brandon Stokley, Champ Bailey and the two aforementioned head cases.

Denver lost its final three games that season and two of those were blowouts. 10-30 to Carolina and 21-52 to the Chargers. The other was a loss to the consistently mediocre Bills. (7-9 that year.)

In retrospect, in a year when Denver had maybe 13 legitimate football players on the roster (three of whom were mostly special teamers) and two of the defining starters were lifelong problem children and head cases, maybe it WAS time to blow things up.

Your witness, counselor.

DivineLegion
11-24-2012, 07:55 PM
It starts at the top. Ask yourself what Mike Shanahans drafts were like before the Goodmans, then think about the McDaniels drafts with Xander's, and finally make a preemptive assessment of John Elways work with Fox.

2011:

1. Von Miller A+
2. Rahim Moore B+ (?)
2. Orlando Franklin A
3. Nate Irving C
4. Quinton Carter C+/B
4. Julius Thomas F
6. Mike Mohamed F
7. Virgil Green C

(Too early to tell really, but its worth a look)

2012:

2. Derek Wolfe B+
2. Brock Osweiler ?
3. Ronnie Hillman C+ (?)
4. Omar Boldin C
4. Phillip Blake C
5. Malik Jackson C+/B
6. Danny Trevathan B+


This draft is way to recent, and almost impossible to evaluate.

Action
11-24-2012, 08:17 PM
Honestly, McDaniels had 0 time to evaluate for the 2009 draft, I'd almost give him a pass for that but the fact that he had 0 time to evaluate and still traded a 1st round pick for Alphonso Smith was horrible.

McDaniels does have a certain eye for offensive talent... Taking Demaryius Thomas over Dez will be his imprint on this team.

baja
11-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Sure. Why not?

Denver finished 8-8 but it was an 8-8 on an elevator headed down.

Denver’s defense finished that year ranked 29th in yards surrendered and 30th in points allowed. By definition, one of the worst three in the league.

The takeaway/giveaway ratio was -17, ranked 31st in the league.

The final point differential was -78 (25th in the league)

Only three Broncos made it to the pro-bowl that year: Casey Weigmann, Cutler and Marshall, and as we have discovered since, Cutler and Marshall were both were catastrophic head-cases. Cutler still throws far too many interceptions and is known primarily for his pouting. Marshall did his best to get his butt traded from Denver, and he was already a problem under Shanahan. He was also a bust in Miami. This year, he may be finally coming around in Chicago, but I wouldn’t want to bet on it. And it’s just a matter of time before he draws another another off-the-field suspension. To repeat, other than Weigmann, these were our only pro-bowlers that year.

Here’s a list of roster disappointments and outright busts from that year: Jarvis Moss; Jamie Winborn; Marquand Manuel; Nate Webster; Dre’ Bly; Boss Bailey; Josh Bell; John Engelberger; Marlon McCree; Dewayne Robertson; Chad Mustard; Josh Barrett; Calvin Lowry; Vernon Fox; Nic Clemons; Jack MF Williams; Louis Green; Roderick Rogers; Nate Jackson; Niko Koutouvides; Josh Shaw; Andre Hall; Keary Colbert; Herana-Daz Jones; Darrell Jackson; Cory Boyd; Chad Jackson; P.J. Pope; Cliff Russell; Patrick Ramsey; Michael Pittman, Kenny Peterson and Glenn Martinez.

Not exactly names that struck fear into the rest of the league. That’s more than half the roster.

I could probably add Tim Crowder, Ryan Torain, Kory Lichtensteiner, Karl Paymah, Tyler Polumbus, and Hamza Abdullah to that list, although I guess they eventually found homes on some other team’s rotation. None of them ever had any impact here.

I could easily make the case that Tatum Bell and Ben Hamilton were over the hill. Bell was already out the NFL when the Broncos had to bring him back. Hamilton was a formerly solid player who got concussed too many times.

Selvin Young turned out to be a flash in the pan. Denver’s best running back was arguably Peyton Hillis. That says a lot right there.

Denver’s best defensive lineman that year was Ebenezer Ekuban – decent run-stopper, but slow on the pass rush.

Eddie Royal never really lived up to expectations. Nor did Marcus Thomas. I could make the same case about Ryan Harris. Daniel Graham was vastly overpaid. Jeb Putzier and Tony Scheffler had problems staying healthy – or – in Putzier’s case – conscious.

The real talent on that that team was pretty limited: Ryan Clady (just a rookie), a young Chris Kuper; a young Elvis Dumervil (5 sacks on the year), DJ Williams (still controversial), Wesley Woodyard; Spencer Larsen (a Swiss army knife), Mario Haggan (borderline backup); Matt Prater; an aging Casey Weigmann (see above), Brandon Stokley, Champ Bailey and the two aforementioned head cases.

Denver lost its final three games that season and two of those were blowouts. 10-30 to Carolina and 21-52 to the Chargers. The other was a loss to the consistently mediocre Bills. (7-9 that year.)

In retrospect, in a year when Denver had maybe 13 legitimate football players on the roster (three of whom were mostly special teamers) and two of the defining starters were lifelong problem children and head cases, maybe it WAS time to blow things up.

Your witness, counselor.


Don't think I have ever read a better argued position in 11 years of posting here.

Action
11-24-2012, 08:34 PM
:sunshine:Sure. Why not?

Denver finished 8-8 but it was an 8-8 on an elevator headed down.

Denver’s defense finished that year ranked 29th in yards surrendered and 30th in points allowed. By definition, one of the worst three in the league.

The takeaway/giveaway ratio was -17, ranked 31st in the league.

The final point differential was -78 (25th in the league)

Only three Broncos made it to the pro-bowl that year: Casey Weigmann, Cutler and Marshall, and as we have discovered since, Cutler and Marshall were both were catastrophic head-cases. Cutler still throws far too many interceptions and is known primarily for his pouting. Marshall did his best to get his butt traded from Denver, and he was already a problem under Shanahan. He was also a bust in Miami. This year, he may be finally coming around in Chicago, but I wouldn’t want to bet on it. And it’s just a matter of time before he draws another another off-the-field suspension. To repeat, other than Weigmann, these were our only pro-bowlers that year.

Here’s a list of roster disappointments and outright busts from that year: Jarvis Moss; Jamie Winborn; Marquand Manuel; Nate Webster; Dre’ Bly; Boss Bailey; Josh Bell; John Engelberger; Marlon McCree; Dewayne Robertson; Chad Mustard; Josh Barrett; Calvin Lowry; Vernon Fox; Nic Clemons; Jack MF Williams; Louis Green; Roderick Rogers; Nate Jackson; Niko Koutouvides; Josh Shaw; Andre Hall; Keary Colbert; Herana-Daz Jones; Darrell Jackson; Cory Boyd; Chad Jackson; P.J. Pope; Cliff Russell; Patrick Ramsey; Michael Pittman, Kenny Peterson and Glenn Martinez.

Not exactly names that struck fear into the rest of the league. That’s more than half the roster.

I could probably add Tim Crowder, Ryan Torain, Kory Lichtensteiner, Karl Paymah, Tyler Polumbus, and Hamza Abdullah to that list, although I guess they eventually found homes on some other team’s rotation. None of them ever had any impact here.

I could easily make the case that Tatum Bell and Ben Hamilton were over the hill. Bell was already out the NFL when the Broncos had to bring him back. Hamilton was a formerly solid player who got concussed too many times.

Selvin Young turned out to be a flash in the pan. Denver’s best running back was arguably Peyton Hillis. That says a lot right there.

Denver’s best defensive lineman that year was Ebenezer Ekuban – decent run-stopper, but slow on the pass rush.

Eddie Royal never really lived up to expectations. Nor did Marcus Thomas. I could make the same case about Ryan Harris. Daniel Graham was vastly overpaid. Jeb Putzier and Tony Scheffler had problems staying healthy – or – in Putzier’s case – conscious.

The real talent on that that team was pretty limited: Ryan Clady (just a rookie), a young Chris Kuper; a young Elvis Dumervil (5 sacks on the year), DJ Williams (still controversial), Wesley Woodyard; Spencer Larsen (a Swiss army knife), Mario Haggan (borderline backup); Matt Prater; an aging Casey Weigmann (see above), Brandon Stokley, Champ Bailey and the two aforementioned head cases.

Denver lost its final three games that season and two of those were blowouts. 10-30 to Carolina and 21-52 to the Chargers. The other was a loss to the consistently mediocre Bills. (7-9 that year.)

In retrospect, in a year when Denver had maybe 13 legitimate football players on the roster (three of whom were mostly special teamers) and two of the defining starters were lifelong problem children and head cases, maybe it WAS time to blow things up.

Your witness, counselor.

After reading this post, at first I was like http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2804/lebronoface.png

Then I was like http://imageshack.us/a/img137/4835/tebowhah.png at all the people who think Shanahan is a good GM or HC. Any Shanahan defender must be stuck in the 90s.

DivineLegion
11-24-2012, 09:02 PM
:sunshine:

After reading this post, at first I was like http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2804/lebronoface.png

Then I was like http://imageshack.us/a/img137/4835/tebowhah.png at all the people who think Shanahan is a good GM or HC. Any Shanahan defender must be stuck in the 90s.

Mikes fatal flaw, his neglect of accumulating defensive talent, is becoming obvious in Washington. Mike has an amazing knack for developing young offensive talent, but its never enough. I don't know what it is about the guy, but he thinks he can plug in career back ups/washed up players into starting roles on defense, and coaching will sort them out. Exasterbating this trend is his failure to hire quality defensive coaches to work with his players. Again most of his coaching talent is focused on the offensive side of the ball i.e. Bobby Turner, Kyle Shanahan, Rich Dennison, Gary Kubiak, Jermey Bates, Alex Gibbs, and Ike Hilliard. Mike inherited a good defense, and hasn't done anything to round it into form. Granted injuries have derailed them this season, they show many of the same flaws Mikes later Broncos teams did; lack of secondary depth, poor line play, and complete neglect of the safety position. To me Mikes the same coach he was 5 years ago, and I'm glad we started moving in a different direction.

Kaylore
11-24-2012, 09:14 PM
Mike's not even that good at getting offensive talent. let's remember he drafted Lelie, Watts, Eddie Royal, Marcus Nash, George Foster, Herb Haygood, Tatum Bell and Maurice Clarett.

The dude sucked at drafting period. His free agents sucked too. The two areas Shanahan could do well in terms of personnel was undrafted rookies and trades. He usually did better than most in that area.

The problem is Shanahan could figure what an offensive player was good at and use it with amazing ability in his offense over and over again. He is the best in the league at working with nothing. Shanahan had pretty crappy teams - teams lesser game day coaches would have finished with 2-4 wins Shanny coached into 7-10 win teams. However by the end of the season, when all the tricks are played out, and especially in the post season, they got exposed. This meant we always were just out of range of the real blue chip players, and Shanahan believed his players were better than they were because of his coaching.

Shanahan is a very good coach, but he's a horrible personnel guy. When you add in his coaching hires are often rooted in nepotism and it's pretty easy to see why he hasn't found the success that was there for him earlier in his coaching career.

Old Dude
11-24-2012, 09:15 PM
I have a lot of respect for Mike Shanahan.

He's still the only coach in Denver history to win a Super Bowl and he did it twice. Many of the things he instituted in Denver were copied by other teams.

The team suffered a huge blow when the career of Terrell Davis was cut short. Yet, year after year, under Shanahan's system, he found ways to keep Denver a dominant rushing team. The Clinton Portis pick was a steal, and the subsequent trade for Bailey was arguably an even bigger steal.

After just one down year in 99, Shanahan had the Broncos back in the playoffs in 2000, where they had the double misfortune of losing their starting QB late in the season, plus playing the eventual world champs in the first round.

That was followed by a couple of mediocre years, but they bounced back again with two 10-6 playoff seasons (ended by Peyton Manning) and a 13-3 trip to the AFC Championship game.

Then three mediocre seasons where they went 9-7, 7-9 (Cutler's first full season) and 8-8.

Thing is that when you spend the better part of a decade drafting in the latter part of the draft, it's not easy to find franchise players.

I also think that when they lost Elway, they lost more than a player. They lost an attractor for NFL free agents. No more bargains.

Combine that with a few big free agent busts and an attempt to shift the whole paradigm of the offense from a zone running / rollout scheme to a high-powered pocket passer (with mixed results) and struggles by a series of defensive coordinators all having different approaches with different types of players, and more than your share of devastating injuries along the way, and eventually you wind up depleting the talent cupboard.

Now it may be that if Denver had stuck with Shanahan, we'd be in the exact same situation today. It's all really just speculation.

All I'm saying is that sometimes you do have to blow up most of a team to make more than slight progress.

lonestar
11-24-2012, 11:50 PM
Mike's not even that good at getting offensive talent. let's remember he drafted Lelie, Watts, Eddie Royal, Marcus Nash, George Foster, Herb Haygood, Tatum Bell and Maurice Clarett.

The dude sucked at drafting period. His free agents sucked too. The two areas Shanahan could do well in terms of personnel was undrafted rookies and trades. He usually did better than most in that area.

The problem is Shanahan could figure what an offensive player was good at and use it with amazing ability in his offense over and over again. He is the best in the league at working with nothing. Shanahan had pretty crappy teams - teams lesser game day coaches would have finished with 2-4 wins Shanny coached into 7-10 win teams. However by the end of the season, when all the tricks are played out, and especially in the post season, they got exposed. This meant we always were just out of range of the real blue chip players, and Shanahan believed his players were better than they were because of his coaching.

Shanahan is a very good coach, but he's a horrible personnel guy. When you add in his coaching hires are often rooted in nepotism and it's pretty easy to see why he hasn't found the success that was there for him earlier in his coaching career.

Good post.

I had always wondered:

why an offensive genius could not reverse engineer defenses. If he was great at attacking them how could he not be able to build one.

Why he could not give up the GM duties and hire a real GM that could bring him in real talent in the coaching ranks as well as players.


God only knows how many rings he could have had.

24champ
11-25-2012, 12:06 AM
Honestly, McDaniels had 0 time to evaluate for the 2009 draft, I'd almost give him a pass for that but the fact that he had 0 time to evaluate and still traded a 1st round pick for Alphonso Smith was horrible.

McDaniels does have a certain eye for offensive talent... Taking Demaryius Thomas over Dez will be his imprint on this team.

Not to mention the org (Ellis/Pat) were absolutely stupid in canning the Goodmans and elevating cap geek/numbers guy Xanders prior to the 2009 draft.

That really put McD behind the 8 ball, the more you peel back the layers the more you find that the organization was structurally a cluster**** because prior to that, Shanahan was the org.

lonestar
11-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Let me add I've posted these stats before but seems like a great place to repeat them.

Where most good to great teams build via the draft BAL, NE, PIT. Mikey got caught up in the early success getting cheap UFA for his super bowl runs.
Then they got expensive as it is a copy cat league.

His track record on what used to be day one choices rounds 1-3 was laughable.
Of the 41 choices he took in those rounds. The ones that most teams build the foundation on their teams, and fill in with a seasoned UFA veteran or really old ones in NE.

He Was only able to resign 6 of them. 5 of those 6 were from drafts 1999 or before. Only DJ was the one pick after to resign and mikey FUBARED that contract, overpaying him for a slightly above average LB. IMO
The others he resigned were mobley, Wilson, Neil , Griese and pryce, btw four of those guys were primarily LBs in college. So I guess one could say his area of expertise was lb.

It was recently reported that he said he took players over the objections of his coaches, GM and scouts saying that the players he wanted would be better than they were in college and graded as good but not great, because mikey would coach them up. " they have not been coached by me"

Glad he is screwing up WAS now and not my Broncos.

lonestar
11-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Let me add I've posted these stats before but seems like a great place to repeat them.

Where most good to great teams build via the draft BAL, NE, PIT. Mikey got caught up in the early success getting cheap UFA for his super bowl runs.
Then they got expensive as it is a copy cat league.

His track record on what used to be day one choices rounds 1-3 was laughable.
Of the 41 choices he took in those rounds. The ones that most teams build the foundation on their teams, and fill in with a seasoned UFA veteran or really old ones in NE.

He Was only able to resign 6 of them. 5 of those 6 were from drafts 1999 or before. Only DJ was the one pick after to resign and mikey FUBARED that contract, overpaying him for a slightly above average LB. IMO
The others he resigned were mobley, Wilson, Neil , Griese and pryce, btw four of those guys were primarily LBs in college. So I guess one could say his area of expertise was lb.

It was recently reported that he said he took players over the objections of his coaches, GM and scouts saying that the players he wanted would be better than they were in college and graded as good but not great, because mikey would coach them up. " they have not been coached by me"

Glad he is screwing up WAS now and not my Broncos.

lonestar
11-25-2012, 12:21 AM
Not to mention the org (Ellis/Pat) were absolutely stupid in canning the Goodmans and elevating cap geek/numbers guy Xanders prior to the 2009 draft.

That really put McD behind the 8 ball, the more you peel back the layers the more you find that the organization was structurally a cluster**** because prior to that, Shanahan was the org.

The reason they were fired was when Josh asked them to reevaluate the players already scouted based on his standards of what he was looking in players, there seemed to be an issue.

Granted the first year was not stellar, after his guys were in place the next year the second year was pretty good graded against most othe GMs save Elway who sure looks like a genius so far..

Broncos_OTM
11-25-2012, 12:47 AM
It starts at the top. Ask yourself what Mike Shanahans drafts were like before the Goodmans, then think about the McDaniels drafts with Xander's, and finally make a preemptive assessment of John Elways work with Fox.

2011:

1. Von Miller A+
2. Rahim Moore B+ (?)
2. Orlando Franklin A
3. Nate Irving C
4. Quinton Carter C+/B
4. Julius Thomas F
6. Mike Mohamed F
7. Virgil Green C

(Too early to tell really, but its worth a look)

2012:

2. Derek Wolfe B+********C+**********
2. Brock Osweiler ?
3. Ronnie Hillman C+ (?)*********D**********
4. Omar Boldin C. ********D**********
4. Ph,illip Blake C
5. Malik Jackson C+/B
6. Danny Trevathan B+


This draft is way to recent, and almost impossible to evaluate.
I agree with you i did add a grade in there

Action
11-25-2012, 01:26 AM
Not to mention the org (Ellis/Pat) were absolutely stupid in canning the Goodmans and elevating cap geek/numbers guy Xanders prior to the 2009 draft.

That really put McD behind the 8 ball, the more you peel back the layers the more you find that the organization was structurally a cluster**** because prior to that, Shanahan was the org.

This is true, it's not all McDaniels fault if you're really looking at the overall picture.

They gave the keys to the organization to someone who was young and an OC just for a few years... full GM and front office control.

They should have kept a GM, and gave McDaniels full control of the offense while handing the defense to someone else. Then again, who knows if he would have taken the job under those circumstances.

I personally think McDaniels will still be a great HC one day. It was all fun and games when everyone on here was laughing at McDaniels for not being able to get that Rams offense going even though it was plagued with injuries and no olineman... however he's leading the NFL's #1 offense this year that is putting up 37 ****in points per game, and no one is talking about him now...:~ohyah!:

But I think the Broncos organization really benefited more than anything else from John Elway taking over... he seems to be aware and conscious of what it takes to win and how to build an organization. I thought it was fantastic to use Champ Bailey as an example of what can happen if you stay loyal to the organization... in the end Broncos were better off because now the organization is in the hands of someone who *seems* to know how to build from within.

Dexter
11-25-2012, 01:54 AM
It starts at the top. Ask yourself what Mike Shanahans drafts were like before the Goodmans, then think about the McDaniels drafts with Xander's, and finally make a preemptive assessment of John Elways work with Fox.

2011:

1. Von Miller A+
2. Rahim Moore B+ (?)
2. Orlando Franklin A
3. Nate Irving C
4. Quinton Carter C+/B
4. Julius Thomas F
6. Mike Mohamed F
7. Virgil Green C

(Too early to tell really, but its worth a look)

2012:

2. Derek Wolfe B+
2. Brock Osweiler ?
3. Ronnie Hillman C+ (?)
4. Omar Boldin C
4. Phillip Blake C
5. Malik Jackson C+/B
6. Danny Trevathan B+


This draft is way to recent, and almost impossible to evaluate.

This is a good take. Lets not forget the Undrafted Free Agents.

Chris Harris - A+
Steven Johnson -?
Aaron Brewer A - Saved us a lot of money from not overpaying paxton.


You may even throw Tony Carter in there as players they kept on that many teams wouldn't continue to evaluate.

DivineLegion
11-25-2012, 06:07 AM
Mike's not even that good at getting offensive talent. let's remember he drafted Lelie, Watts, Eddie Royal, Marcus Nash, George Foster, Herb Haygood, Tatum Bell and Maurice Clarett.

The dude sucked at drafting period. His free agents sucked too. The two areas Shanahan could do well in terms of personnel was undrafted rookies and trades. He usually did better than most in that area.

The problem is Shanahan could figure what an offensive player was good at and use it with amazing ability in his offense over and over again. He is the best in the league at working with nothing. Shanahan had pretty crappy teams - teams lesser game day coaches would have finished with 2-4 wins Shanny coached into 7-10 win teams. However by the end of the season, when all the tricks are played out, and especially in the post season, they got exposed. This meant we always were just out of range of the real blue chip players, and Shanahan believed his players were better than they were because of his coaching.

Shanahan is a very good coach, but he's a horrible personnel guy. When you add in his coaching hires are often rooted in nepotism and it's pretty easy to see why he hasn't found the success that was there for him earlier in his coaching career.


Mike was good at accumulating offensive talent because of his system. Just like the Steelers defensive system that is probably locked in a vault somewhere next to the Coke recipe. It started up front with the zone blocking scheme, and a coaching staff that was using the table scraps of the league to make it work. Mike was able to identify, and utilize athletic undersized offensive linemen that most teams overlooked. This was a product of his relationship with Alex Gibbs, and it eventually brought on the success of Rich Dennison;. it also lead to a whole host of successful running backs for the Broncos.

Terrell Davis, Orlandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Rubin Draughns, Tatum Bell were all benificiaries of Mike/Alex's system. Granted some were more talented than others, and one in particular was all world, they can all attribute their success to the Broncos commitment to zone blocking. This is where the legendary Bobby Turner steps in, and takes bow. Bobby had a knack for identifying talent (not necisarrily attitude, Maurice Clarrette), and teaching guys to read their blocks so the system thrived. Hints Bobbies position as the assistant head coach/running backs coach of the Washington Redskins.

The evidence of these two points is prominent in Mikes demise as head coach of the Denver Broncos. it started with the departure of Alex Gibbs, then Kubiak, and was derailed when Rich left. Mike knew how to find his diamond in the rough offensive linemen and off the radar running backs, but he lost the coaches to make them flourish. As a talent evaluator it was easy to take risks on the first two rounds of a given draft when you knew you could find solid depth, or starters in the later rounds. When the interchangable nature of the system lost its luster, and players were not developing because of a lack of structure the system turned on Mike. The last two years were miserable for the once vaunted Broncos running game.

Wide Recievers are a diffrent story. Though they benifited from the system as well, as long as the play action was effective, Mike was never able to draft the position. If it weren't for the longevity of Rod Smith, the Broncos would have maintained a lame presence at the position. Ashly Lelie was a good contributor, and made a solid impact on the 05' team, but he was never great. Enter the Goodmans. Brandon Marshall, and Eddie Royal were Goodman specials, subsequently they were the only special WRs drafted by Mikes staff in the 2000s. Either way Shanahan had a very hard time drafting on both sides of the ball outside of the tackle box; Corners, and Recievers were the Bain of his existence.

What it really comes down to is coaching philosophy, and system. Mike knew how to plug players into his offensive system by drafting accordingly. He could nail the mid to late round linemen, and the occasional back. Outside of that he was helpless, but most coaches are this way. John Fox is not a great offensive talent evaluator. In Carolina he build a Defensive system, similar to Mikes offensive system, where he could plug almost anyone into his front seven, and finish in the top 15. Luckily for Fox he has an offensive savvy VP in John Elway to counter his conservative defensive philosophy. Granted most of our offensive talent is product of Josh McDaniels shoddy rebuild, John has done a great job filling out the entirety of the roster.

Look at the current starting 11 on offense:

QB: Manning FA Elway
RB: McGahee FA Elway
WR: Thomas 1A McDaniels
WR: Decker 4 McDaniels
WR: Stokley FA Shanahan/Manning
LT: Clady 1 Shanahan/Goodman
LG: Beadles 3 McDaniels
C: Koppen FA Elway (Walton 4 McDaniels)
RG: Kuper 4 Shanahan
RT: Franklin 2B Elway
TE: Tamme/Dreeson FA Elway


Most of the current roster has been put together trough the draft by Mike and Josh, and was finished by John with FAs.


Defense:

RE: Dumervil 4 Shanahan/Goodman
DT: Bannan FA McDaniels/Fox
DT: Vickerson FA McDaniels
LE: Wolfe 2A Fox
SLB: Miller 1 Fox
MLB: Brooking FA Fox
WLB: Woodyard UFA Shanahan
DB: Bailey T Shanahan
DB: Harris UFA Fox
DB: Carter UFA Fox
S: Moore 2A Fox
S: Adams FA Fox


Look at the comprehensive turnover in defense compared to the carry over in offense. It shows you how devoid of defensive talent this team was after to offensive minded coaches neglected that side of the ball. On the offensive side you can see that we have benifited greatly with young talent as a result. There was a good young core of offensive talent in place that Elway filled out with superb FA aquisitions, and now were in the hunt.

DivineLegion
11-25-2012, 06:11 AM
This is a good take. Lets not forget the Undrafted Free Agents.

Chris Harris - A+
Steven Johnson -?
Aaron Brewer A - Saved us a lot of money from not overpaying paxton.


You may even throw Tony Carter in there as players they kept on that many teams wouldn't continue to evaluate.

Good point, they have done a great job with scouting.

DivineLegion
11-25-2012, 06:11 AM
I agree with you i did add a grade in there

A little harsh on the early grades eh'?

CEH
11-25-2012, 06:49 AM
Honestly, McDaniels had 0 time to evaluate for the 2009 draft, I'd almost give him a pass for that but the fact that he had 0 time to evaluate and still traded a 1st round pick for Alphonso Smith was horrible.


This is true, it's not all McDaniels fault if you're really looking at the overall picture.

They gave the keys to the organization to someone who was young and an OC just for a few years... full GM and front office control.

They should have kept a GM, and gave McDaniels full control of the offense while handing the defense to someone else. Then again, who knows if he would have taken the job under those circumstances.

I personally think McDaniels will still be a great HC one day. It was all fun and games when everyone on here was laughing at McDaniels for not being able to get that Rams offense going even though it was plagued with injuries and no olineman... however he's leading the NFL's #1 offense this year that is putting up 37 ****in points per game, and no one is talking about him now...:~ohyah!:

But I think the Broncos organization really benefited more than anything else from John Elway taking over... he seems to be aware and conscious of what it takes to win and how to build an organization. I thought it was fantastic to use Champ Bailey as an example of what can happen if you stay loyal to the organization... in the end Broncos were better off because now the organization is in the hands of someone who *seems* to know how to build from within.

Wow maybe a guy named Tom Brady has more to do with the offense than Josh.
Josh fired the scouting staff before the draft so to say he gets a pass in 09 because he had no time to prepare is just not true. Teams let scouts go all the time yet they do it after the draft

The little nazi didn't know what he was doing

Josh will never sniff another HC job unless he replaces BB in NE.

Powderaddict
11-25-2012, 07:25 AM
Alphonso Smith was 100 times worse than Tebow.

Even if Tebow's biggest contribution was getting Orton off the field (and it isnt), He's a better use of a first round pick than trading one to draft Alphonso Smith.

baja
11-25-2012, 07:49 AM
Alphonso Smith was 100 times worse than Tebow.

Even if Tebow's biggest contribution was getting Orton off the field (and it isnt), He's a better use of a first round pick than trading one to draft Alphonso Smith.

Ya I gotta go along with the group that believes Alphonso Smith was the biggest draft screw up.


McD had no staff or time to evaluate his first draft so what does he do, he trades NEXT YEARS 1ST RD pick for a player that year. So ya that was his top bone head draft move.

errand
11-25-2012, 08:44 AM
C'mon. We all know McDip****'s biggest ****-up was accepting a job he was in no way ready for.

wouldn't that have been Bowlen's biggest screw up?

Bronco Rob
11-25-2012, 09:16 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=106729


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=105007



:thumbs:

TheReverend
11-25-2012, 02:00 PM
Sure. Why not?

Denver finished 8-8 but it was an 8-8 on an elevator headed down.

Denver’s defense finished that year ranked 29th in yards surrendered and 30th in points allowed. By definition, one of the worst three in the league.

The takeaway/giveaway ratio was -17, ranked 31st in the league.

The final point differential was -78 (25th in the league)

Only three Broncos made it to the pro-bowl that year: Casey Weigmann, Cutler and Marshall, and as we have discovered since, Cutler and Marshall were both were catastrophic head-cases. Cutler still throws far too many interceptions and is known primarily for his pouting. Marshall did his best to get his butt traded from Denver, and he was already a problem under Shanahan. He was also a bust in Miami. This year, he may be finally coming around in Chicago, but I wouldn’t want to bet on it. And it’s just a matter of time before he draws another another off-the-field suspension. To repeat, other than Weigmann, these were our only pro-bowlers that year.

Here’s a list of roster disappointments and outright busts from that year: Jarvis Moss; Jamie Winborn; Marquand Manuel; Nate Webster; Dre’ Bly; Boss Bailey; Josh Bell; John Engelberger; Marlon McCree; Dewayne Robertson; Chad Mustard; Josh Barrett; Calvin Lowry; Vernon Fox; Nic Clemons; Jack MF Williams; Louis Green; Roderick Rogers; Nate Jackson; Niko Koutouvides; Josh Shaw; Andre Hall; Keary Colbert; Herana-Daz Jones; Darrell Jackson; Cory Boyd; Chad Jackson; P.J. Pope; Cliff Russell; Patrick Ramsey; Michael Pittman, Kenny Peterson and Glenn Martinez.

Not exactly names that struck fear into the rest of the league. That’s more than half the roster.

I could probably add Tim Crowder, Ryan Torain, Kory Lichtensteiner, Karl Paymah, Tyler Polumbus, and Hamza Abdullah to that list, although I guess they eventually found homes on some other team’s rotation. None of them ever had any impact here.

I could easily make the case that Tatum Bell and Ben Hamilton were over the hill. Bell was already out the NFL when the Broncos had to bring him back. Hamilton was a formerly solid player who got concussed too many times.

Selvin Young turned out to be a flash in the pan. Denver’s best running back was arguably Peyton Hillis. That says a lot right there.

Denver’s best defensive lineman that year was Ebenezer Ekuban – decent run-stopper, but slow on the pass rush.

Eddie Royal never really lived up to expectations. Nor did Marcus Thomas. I could make the same case about Ryan Harris. Daniel Graham was vastly overpaid. Jeb Putzier and Tony Scheffler had problems staying healthy – or – in Putzier’s case – conscious.

The real talent on that that team was pretty limited: Ryan Clady (just a rookie), a young Chris Kuper; a young Elvis Dumervil (5 sacks on the year), DJ Williams (still controversial), Wesley Woodyard; Spencer Larsen (a Swiss army knife), Mario Haggan (borderline backup); Matt Prater; an aging Casey Weigmann (see above), Brandon Stokley, Champ Bailey and the two aforementioned head cases.

Denver lost its final three games that season and two of those were blowouts. 10-30 to Carolina and 21-52 to the Chargers. The other was a loss to the consistently mediocre Bills. (7-9 that year.)

In retrospect, in a year when Denver had maybe 13 legitimate football players on the roster (three of whom were mostly special teamers) and two of the defining starters were lifelong problem children and head cases, maybe it WAS time to blow things up.

Your witness, counselor.

I'm away from home so just wrote a thorough reply of how horrid this post is but it erased somehow :/

I'll dismantle it properly tomorrow when I get home but until then, I'll give an example of your glaring inaccuracies.

You knock Lichtensteiger... Meanwhile he's been a multi year starter and may very well see the pro bowl this year. Just a microcosm for how terrible most of the out of context details of your post are.

I'll finish up when I can!

Old Dude
11-25-2012, 02:16 PM
Lichtensteiger... "a multi year starter"?

That's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

When the Broncos waived him in 2009, he was picked up by the Vikings.

Who also waived him.

He reunited with Shanahan in 2010, and did start that year. On a team that finished 6-10. Okay, that's one.

In 2011, he went on injured reserve six games into the season. That's not quite one and a half.

One and a half seasons = multi-year starter? Okay. Whatever. Good luck with that.

Action
11-25-2012, 02:59 PM
I'm away from home so just wrote a thorough reply of how horrid this post is but it erased somehow :/

I'll dismantle it properly tomorrow when I get home but until then, I'll give an example of your glaring inaccuracies.

You knock Lichtensteiger... Meanwhile he's been a multi year starter and may very well see the pro bowl this year. Just a microcosm for how terrible most of the out of context details of your post are.

I'll finish up when I can!

How about you dismantle your reading skills and replace it with some hooked on phonics. Probably replace your Shanahan pride with something else too.

You mention Lichtensteiger but this is exactly what he said...


I could probably add Tim Crowder, Ryan Torain, Kory Lichtensteiner, Karl Paymah, Tyler Polumbus, and Hamza Abdullah to that list, although I guess they eventually found homes on some other team’s rotation. None of them ever had any impact here.


Is that not true?

So out of all the "dismantling" you're hyping up, your example of one was horrid.

Shanahan was a horrible GM. Just look at all his drafts since he's been here and how many have stuck with the team and for how long they've stuck with the team.

He was even a worse HC when it came to DCs... as a matter of fact he was nothing short of McDaniels in the ego avenue when it came to DCs.

No one wants to admit that.

TheReverend
11-25-2012, 06:36 PM
Again, I'll address this thoroughly when I get home but

OD - Kory started in 10,11,and now in 12. That's literally the definition of multi year genius.

Action aka Freak6 /vonqkilla (how many usernames can you get banned and hated in btw?) - the entire premise is the team needed to be blown up... Considering this player in this example is even playing for that very same coach... Well everyone knows you're a moron so no need to point it out again

Again, I'll finish this when I can. I'm still laughing over your examples using starters that are playing very well like Lichtensteiger and Polumbus. Damn near intentional levels of ignorance.

Old Dude
11-25-2012, 07:24 PM
Again, I'll address this thoroughly when I get home but

OD - Kory started in 10,11,and now in 12. That's literally the definition of multi year, genius.

...

16 + 6 + 10 = "multi-year" starter. That's like calling Captain Hook "multi-limbed."

The reason it's significant is this.

Since you're the one claiming it's absurd to think that the Broncos needed to be blown up, you've got the burden of showing that the 8-8 season was a mere aberration and that Denver would have been a playoff team in 09, 10 and 11 under Shanahan as well as this year.

Well, guess what. You don't get to use "Kory" in 09 or for the 10-game majority of 2011. So I'll be interested to see which of the other Bronco linemen you'll be using to protect Cutler's worthless ass for the other 26 games.

baja
11-25-2012, 07:34 PM
16 + 6 + 10 = "multi-year" starter. That's like calling Captain Hook "multi-limbed."

The reason it's significant is this.

Since you're the one claiming it's absurd to think that the Broncos needed to be blown up, you've got the burden of showing that the 8-8 season was a mere aberration and that Denver would have been a playoff team in 09, 10 and 11 under Shanahan as well as this year.

Well, guess what. You don't get to use "Kory" in 09 or for the 10-game majority of 2011. So I'll be interested to see which of the other Bronco linemen you'll be using to protect Cutler's worthless ass for the other 26 games.

BAM

baja
11-25-2012, 07:38 PM
I'm away from home so just wrote a thorough reply of how horrid this post is but it erased somehow :/

I'll dismantle it properly tomorrow when I get home but until then, I'll give an example of your glaring inaccuracies.

You knock Lichtensteiger... Meanwhile he's been a multi year starter and may very well see the pro bowl this year. Just a microcosm for how terrible most of the out of context details of your post are.

I'll finish up when I can!

Not sure I'll be able to sleep...

BroncoBuff
11-25-2012, 08:27 PM
Just for fun, here's who we could have taken with those picks, at the same slots:

1 12 Brian Orakpo, LB
1 18 Clay Matthews, LB
2 37 Jarius Byrd, S
2 48 Lesean McCoy, RB
2 64 Mike Wallace, WR

Argghh that hurts, where's the "fun" in that?

BroncoBuff
11-25-2012, 09:08 PM
FWIW, Lichtensteiger has been the starter since Week 3 in 2010.



2010: Kory replaced Derrick Dockery in Week 3 and started 14 straight to finish 2010
2011: Started the first 5 games. but was lost to IR with a knee injury
2012: Has started all 11 games this season


As with Ryan Torain and others though, there may be some Shanahan favoritism .

DENVERDUI55
11-26-2012, 12:18 AM
Multiyear starter doesn't mean crap especially with shanny. For christ sakes he used Nate Webster, John Engelberger, Eric Pears types.