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View Full Version : League needs to change this challenge thing


ZONA
11-22-2012, 07:40 PM
Right now, games are being lost/won over blown calls that were challenged but because the challenge was not allowed, they just don't review the play? How insane is this rule? If coaches throw that challenge flag in error, it should be a penalty, like 15 yards. It should not be the case where the play stands and they don't review the play at all. I mean, the challenge flag is not affecting the play while it's happening. The refs are clearly not blowing whistles many times because they want the play to be able to be challenge or reviewed. Because of this, the way it's set up now, it's way too severe a penalty and they need to change this next year.

Thoughts.

baja
11-22-2012, 07:46 PM
Right now, games are being lost/won over blown calls that were challenged but because the challenge was not allowed, they just don't review the play? How insane is this rule? If coaches throw that challenge flag in error, it should be a penalty, like 15 yards. It should not be the case where the play stands and they don't review the play at all. I mean, the challenge flag is not affecting the play while it's happening. The refs are clearly not blowing whistles many times because they want the play to be able to be challenge or reviewed. Because of this, the way it's set up now, it's way too severe a penalty and they need to change this next year.

Thoughts.

It's so unfair it should be changed before the next week of games.

lolcopter
11-22-2012, 07:48 PM
Coach should know the rules, no matter how stupid they are

errand
11-22-2012, 08:03 PM
Coach should know the rules, no matter how stupid they are

This^

Every coach should be a student of the game...and should know the NFL rule book inside and out..

USMCBladerunner
11-22-2012, 08:10 PM
I see it both ways...but in the end I just think the coaches need to learn the rules of their game...they are only paid millions of dollars...

it only sucks today because the Broncos are collateral damage to the grossly negligent head coaching of the Detroit Lions...

ZONA
11-22-2012, 08:11 PM
This^

Every coach should be a student of the game...and should know the NFL rule book inside and out..

Agreed. Players also should know how to play the game but that doesn't mean they won't make a mistake and get a penalty now and then. Everybody is human and we make mistakes, coaches are no different. Why should their mistake be so costly? Doesn't make any sense at all. Nobody is saying that they shouldn't know the rules. But if you don't think this is something that needs addressed next year something is very wrong. All you have to do is just imagine it happens to your team, we'll see how you feel then.

baja
11-22-2012, 08:12 PM
I see it both ways...but in the end I just think the coaches need to learn the rules of their game...they are only paid millions of dollars...

it only sucks today because the Broncos are collateral damage to the grossly negligent head coaching of the Detroit Lions...

Well that's reason enough to change it. When it effects other innocent teams

ZONA
11-22-2012, 08:14 PM
Well that's reason enough to change it. When it effects other innocent teams

You know, refs make mistakes too, there were too many occasions where it was costing games. So the league gave us instant replay, so you could limit the mistakes and how severe the penalty was if you got them wrong. This is no different. I'm not advocating change the rule midseason, the coaches should know the rules. But looking ahead, I think it's a rule that should be addressed in the offseason and changed.

You watch, I betcha it gets changed.

USMCBladerunner
11-22-2012, 08:16 PM
Well that's reason enough to change it. When it effects other innocent teams

I don't hold the league responsible for Swartz's ineptitude...it's just back luck...this wasn't even the first time that this came up this season and he still ****ed it up...it's on the head coach and only the head coach and I'll betcha even he knows it is.

baja
11-22-2012, 08:18 PM
You know, refs make mistakes too, there were too many occasions where it was costing games. So the league gave us instant replay, so you could limit the mistakes and how severe the penalty was if you got them wrong. This is no different. I'm not advocating change the rule midseason, the coaches should know the rules. But looking ahead, I think it's a rule that should be addressed in the offseason and changed.

You watch, I betcha it gets changed.

They could change the auto review part for scoring plays now and it wouldn't effect anything going forward except the injustice

gyldenlove
11-22-2012, 08:24 PM
This needs to be changed, it is too easy to abuse. In a situation when a TD is called on the field that you think will be overturned, you throw the red rag, take the 15 yard penalty on the kickoff but keep the TD.

MagicHef
11-22-2012, 08:26 PM
If your team scored a TD on a play that was called in error, could the HC throw his flag to stop a challenge and keep the TD? In other words, could Kubiak have thrown his flag if Schwartz didn't?

USMCBladerunner
11-22-2012, 08:33 PM
This needs to be changed, it is too easy to abuse. In a situation when a TD is called on the field that you think will be overturned, you throw the red rag, take the 15 yard penalty on the kickoff but keep the TD.

interesting...and I think you are right...it needs to be fixed for sure then, if you are...

baja
11-22-2012, 08:35 PM
This needs to be changed, it is too easy to abuse. In a situation when a TD is called on the field that you think will be overturned, you throw the red rag, take the 15 yard penalty on the kickoff but keep the TD.

Excellent point / good thinking

Jekyll15Hyde
11-22-2012, 09:03 PM
Sure the coach was wrong but how on earth does is make sense that the ref cant go make the correct call? Give him a penalty after the outcome of the play. But get the call correct.

titan
11-22-2012, 09:23 PM
I like the college system better. No challenges - just the booth stopping play if they see a play that needs to be reviewed. It doesn't slow the college game down too much.

The Detroit/Houston game was a good one - one of the better Thanksgiving Day games in recent memory.

OBF1
11-22-2012, 10:00 PM
Right now, games are being lost/won over blown calls that were challenged but because the challenge was not allowed, they just don't review the play? How insane is this rule? If coaches throw that challenge flag in error, it should be a penalty, like 15 yards. It should not be the case where the play stands and they don't review the play at all. I mean, the challenge flag is not affecting the play while it's happening. The refs are clearly not blowing whistles many times because they want the play to be able to be challenge or reviewed. Because of this, the way it's set up now, it's way too severe a penalty and they need to change this next year.

Thoughts.


This rule is so rare, not a single person here knew it existed.... Even the coaches may not have known or had forgotten the rule. Now that everyone learned it the hard way it should never happen again. Not a problem IMHO

baja
11-22-2012, 10:57 PM
This rule is so rare, not a single person here knew it existed.... Even the coaches may not have known or had forgotten the rule. Now that everyone learned it the hard way it should never happen again. Not a problem IMHO

It just happened last week to Atlanta (I think it was them) so many here did know about it. I know I did. It was all over the sports news so no it's not obscure and yes the coaches should have known about it as it
occurred just last week.

Jetmeck
11-22-2012, 10:59 PM
Actually this just happened to Atlanta last week so fix this stupidity.

Throwing the flag by mistake should have nothing whatsoever to do with actually reviewing a scoring play which is another rule.

lonestar
11-22-2012, 11:42 PM
This^

Every coach should be a student of the game...and should know the NFL rule book inside and out..

The coach is seen walking towards someone saying I was wrong.

PK has sources saying it will be fixed in the next rules committee meetings.

Just like some players did not know games could end in a tie, it is a learning experience.

Everyone thinks that would have been the game winning points.

Texans are 10-1 for a reason. They find ways to win. If those would have been overturned they most likely continue down the field to score. In doing so eaten more clock time.

Yes you are absolutely correct. The coach should know better, IIRC one of our old coaches was quick to throw the flag, he had to resort to putting in his sock, to slow down the process.

OBF1
11-22-2012, 11:45 PM
If the rule is there AND the same thing happened last week, then the entire coaching staff are full of idiots. 1 of them should have known better and handled it correctly instead of pulling the stupid move for a second week in a row. If guys on the mane know all about it, million dollar coaching staffs should as well. You guys are making my point for me.

ZONA
11-23-2012, 12:07 AM
Sure the coach was wrong but how on earth does is make sense that the ref cant go make the correct call? Give him a penalty after the outcome of the play. But get the call correct.

When all is said and done, this is what you want. You want the outcome to be the correct call. The PLAY is the most important thing. Any screw up by a coach challenging should be a 15 yard penalty. Heck, if you want to make it even more severe, 15 yards plus a loss of timeout. But get play on the field called correct.

Anybody arguing that the coaches are ignorant for not knowing the rules, well that's not the point. Of course they should know the rules and it's their fault for screwing it up. But that doesn't mean the rule should not be changed next year, and apparently it will be, so I guess that solves that.

extralife
11-23-2012, 12:18 AM
This needs to be changed, it is too easy to abuse. In a situation when a TD is called on the field that you think will be overturned, you throw the red rag, take the 15 yard penalty on the kickoff but keep the TD.

what would the coach of the team who scored the TD be challenging, genius? you think the refs are going to allow that?

Boobs McGee
11-23-2012, 12:21 AM
Could someone explain to me exactly whats being talked about? Didn't get to see the game ...

ZONA
11-23-2012, 12:28 AM
what would the coach of the team who scored the TD be challenging, genius? you think the refs are going to allow that?

Yeah, I think he outsmarted himself on that comment.

ZONA
11-23-2012, 12:30 AM
Could someone explain to me exactly whats being talked about? Didn't get to see the game ...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_LIoCR8gHtI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ZONA
11-23-2012, 12:35 AM
Honestly, for the life of me, I can't figure out how this screwed up technicality got past the rules commission in the 1st place. How do you not go over this scenario and say, yeah, wow that sounds unfair. So their official view must have gone something like this "Who cares about getting the play right, let's just roll with this and see how it goes". Talk about oversight. I think half the mane here could come up with a better set of rules then these clowns.

What a bunch of overpaid tools.

Boobs McGee
11-23-2012, 12:38 AM
Thanks for the link!
So, you're (a coach) not allowed to challenge a scoring play?

Play2win
11-23-2012, 12:56 AM
What happens if he throws the flag before the actual score, just after runner's knee hits. He's just challenging whether the runner is down or not. Would this stupid rule still apply?

HAT
11-23-2012, 01:59 AM
what would the coach of the team who scored the TD be challenging, genius? you think the refs are going to allow that?

Time on the clock when the ball carrier crossed the goal line.

baja
11-23-2012, 02:08 AM
If the rule is there AND the same thing happened last week, then the entire coaching staff are full of idiots. 1 of them should have known better and handled it correctly instead of pulling the stupid move for a second week in a row. If guys on the mane know all about it, million dollar coaching staffs should as well. You guys are making my point for me.

Of course the HC should know the rule and I bet it doesn't happen again but what if as gyldenlove pointed out the Houston coach threw the flag to stop the clear reversal of the bad call insuring the TD stands for Houston?

The rule is flawed and needs to be addressed now.

boltaneer
11-23-2012, 04:13 AM
I'm pretty sure the competition committee meets in the off-season to go over rule changes. Nothing will change mid-season.

Schwarts has always been a hothead. Dude should have learned from what Mike Smith did last week.

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 04:36 AM
Thanks for the link!
So, you're (a coach) not allowed to challenge a scoring play?

Anything that's autoreviewed (scoring or turnovers or anything within the last 2 minutes) cannot be challenged or it's a penalty and stops the autoreview.

I, personally, really like the way it's written now. It adds a new dynamic. And those people saying he accidentally threw the flag are silly. It's not like the thing fell out of his hand. Expecting the coaches to know what rules they can or can not challenge is not too difficult a task so the rule should be fine to stay as it is.

Beantown Bronco
11-23-2012, 04:43 AM
Texans are 10-1 for a reason. They find ways to win. If those would have been overturned they most likely continue down the field to score. In doing so eaten more clock time.


Detroit had all the momentum prior to that play, which changed the entire complexion of the game. There's absolutely no way you can say that they "most likely" score on that drive regardless.

troya900
11-23-2012, 04:58 AM
Anything that's autoreviewed (scoring or turnovers or anything within the last 2 minutes) cannot be challenged or it's a penalty and stops the autoreview.

I, personally, really like the way it's written now. It adds a new dynamic. And those people saying he accidentally threw the flag are silly. It's not like the thing fell out of his hand. Expecting the coaches to know what rules they can or can not challenge is not too difficult a task so the rule should be fine to stay as it is.

Honestly, this is one of the dumbest posts I've read in a while. The whole objective for all this replay and challenge flag crap should be to get the damn call on the field correct. The nfl shows us once again how amateurish they look with these convoluted rules that are just ridiculous. A team shouldnt be gifted a td they clearly didnt earn.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-23-2012, 06:39 AM
Honestly, for the life of me, I can't figure out how this screwed up technicality got past the rules commission in the 1st place. How do you not go over this scenario and say, yeah, wow that sounds unfair. So their official view must have gone something like this "Who cares about getting the play right, let's just roll with this and see how it goes". Talk about oversight. I think half the mane here could come up with a better set of rules then these clowns.

What a bunch of overpaid tools.

This.

it's a bad rule, one which never should have seen the field in the first place.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-23-2012, 06:41 AM
Anything that's autoreviewed (scoring or turnovers or anything within the last 2 minutes) cannot be challenged or it's a penalty and stops the autoreview.

I, personally, really like the way it's written now. It adds a new dynamic. And those people saying he accidentally threw the flag are silly. It's not like the thing fell out of his hand. Expecting the coaches to know what rules they can or can not challenge is not too difficult a task so the rule should be fine to stay as it is.

You're not serious.

"I witnessed a murder. Please investigate."

"Sorry. We investigate all murders. This call means we can't now. And you're under arrest."

Yeah, good rule. If you're a ****ing moron.

Jason in LA
11-23-2012, 07:01 AM
The coach needs to know the rule, so his bad on that one. He cost them the game.

But at the same time the rule needs to be changed. I do not understand the logic in taking away the ability to use instant replay just because the coach threw the flag. The 15 yard penalty is enough. Really thinking about it, I don't think it needs a penalty at all. Just tell the coach to pick up the flag because it is not needed.

Kaylore
11-23-2012, 07:06 AM
This thread should be titled "I'm upset about the Lions game."

gyldenlove
11-23-2012, 07:07 AM
what would the coach of the team who scored the TD be challenging, genius? you think the refs are going to allow that?

He can challenge the catch or that the runner was out of bounds, doesn't matter. As long as he attempts to challenge, he will get a 15 yard penalty and the official review will be cancelled.

rodr88
11-23-2012, 07:23 AM
The logic for the rule is that the team committing the penalty cannot benefit from committing the penalty. Schwartz throws the challenge flag in the wrong spot gets a the 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. The rules say he cannot benefit from committing the penalty, therefore they won't allow the replay because the penalized team could benefit from their infraction. So no replay. If Schwartz holds his water the play will be reviewed, it's a scoring play, the review is automatic. Instead he acts like a teenage boy who can't control himself, pops off with the challenge flag and the only satisfied people are on the Texans sidelines


Bottom line, if the coach doesn't know the rules he's going to screw the pooch on a call and hurt his team. Yea it sucks for the team, and it even sucks for the Broncos, but this is on Schwartz, and I saw him saying that several times on the sidelines after the play. He cost his team by not knowing the rules.

Jason in LA
11-23-2012, 07:30 AM
The logic for the rule is that the team committing the penalty cannot benefit from committing the penalty. Schwartz throws the challenge flag in the wrong spot gets a the 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. The rules say he cannot benefit from committing the penalty, therefore they won't allow the replay because the penalized team could benefit from their infraction. So no replay. If Schwartz holds his water the play will be reviewed, it's a scoring play, the review is automatic. Instead he acts like a teenage boy who can't control himself, pops off with the challenge flag and the only satisfied people are on the Texans sidelines


Bottom line, if the coach doesn't know the rules he's going to screw the pooch on a call and hurt his team. Yea it sucks for the team, and it even sucks for the Broncos, but this is on Schwartz, and I saw him saying that several times on the sidelines after the play. He cost his team by not knowing the rules.

That's an interesting point, but I don't think it applies here because the refs were going to review the play anyways. I could see the point if the team committed a penalty to buy themselves extra time to decide if they want were going to challenge or not, but that's not the case here. It was going to be challenged anyway.

DENVERDUI55
11-23-2012, 07:32 AM
Well it may need to be changed but a HC making millions doesn't need to be so stupid. Why would you risk losing challenge anyways on a play that is auto reviewed even if it wasn't a penalty.

baja
11-23-2012, 07:34 AM
Anything that's autoreviewed (scoring or turnovers or anything within the last 2 minutes) cannot be challenged or it's a penalty and stops the autoreview.

I, personally, really like the way it's written now. It adds a new dynamic. And those people saying he accidentally threw the flag are silly. It's not like the thing fell out of his hand. Expecting the coaches to know what rules they can or can not challenge is not too difficult a task so the rule should be fine to stay as it is.

Should the head coach of an NFL football team know the rule and penalty for tossing a errant challenge flag? Sure he should, the point is the penalty is too excessive.

He could have cold cocked an official and not lost points, He could have walked out into the middle of the field and took a piss on the fifty yard line and not lost points. He could have mooned the crowd and not lost points yet because he tossed a little red flag at the wrong time his opponent gets a free 7 and he loses the game.

In the world of ill conceived ideas that's right up there will replacement refs.

baja
11-23-2012, 07:37 AM
Hell he could have called a time out he didn't have and only got a 15 yard penalty

rodr88
11-23-2012, 07:48 AM
That's an interesting point, but I don't think it applies here because the refs were going to review the play anyways. I could see the point if the team committed a penalty to buy themselves extra time to decide if they want were going to challenge or not, but that's not the case here. It was going to be challenged anyway.

I see what you are saying, but the rules say a team cannot receive a benefit from committing a penalty. Do I think its excessive, yes, but I think that PI can be excessive too, but that isn't going to change. Schwartz should have kept his emotions in check, the call would have been reversed and Houston would have had to continue the drive after a 7 yard run. IMHO this is a case of several people screwing up, the officials, and Schwartz, Schwartz just screwed up bigger because he took away the officials means of making the call right.

I'm not going to lie, if that had been Fox doing that I would have been mad as hell at the officials, but then mad as hell at Fox for not knowing the rules. Since I have have no real emotional investment in this game I just enjoyed Schwartz looking like a fool, again.

DENVERDUI55
11-23-2012, 08:10 AM
Should the head coach of an NFL football team know the rule and penalty for tossing a errant challenge flag? Sure he should, the point is the penalty is too excessive.

He could have cold cocked an official and not lost points, He could have walked out into the middle of the field and took a piss on the fifty yard line and not lost points. He could have mooned the crowd and not lost points yet because he tossed a little red flag at the wrong time his opponent gets a free 7 and he loses the game.

In the world of ill conceived ideas that's right up there will replacement refs.

It is excessive but it didn't lose the game for them. Detroit had plenty of chances and Hanson missed fg to win it. Vandenbosh dropped INT that would of probably won the game.

baja
11-23-2012, 08:13 AM
It is excessive but it didn't lose the game for them. Detroit had plenty of chances and Hanson missed fg to win it. Vandenbosh dropped INT that would of probably won the game.

It wasn't fair and it certainly didn't help.

You can come up with all the 'ya buts' you want but the rule is ridiculously excessive in it's punishment

ludo21
11-23-2012, 08:49 AM
You're not serious.

"I witnessed a murder. Please investigate."

"Sorry. We investigate all murders. This call means we can't now. And you're under arrest."

Yeah, good rule. If you're a ****ing moron.

:rofl:

only on the OMane does someone say something this stupid.

lonestar
11-23-2012, 09:13 AM
If the rule is there AND the same thing happened last week, then the entire coaching staff are full of idiots. 1 of them should have known better and handled it correctly instead of pulling the stupid move for a second week in a row. If guys on the mane know all about it, million dollar coaching staffs should as well. You guys are making my point for me.

He admitted he knew the rule but was so hot under the collar he reacted to fast.

Dedhed
11-23-2012, 09:14 AM
The logic for the rule is that the team committing the penalty cannot benefit from committing the penalty. Schwartz throws the challenge flag in the wrong spot gets a the 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. The rules say he cannot benefit from committing the penalty, therefore they won't allow the replay because the penalized team could benefit from their infraction. So no replay. If Schwartz holds his water the play will be reviewed, it's a scoring play, the review is automatic. Instead he acts like a teenage boy who can't control himself, pops off with the challenge flag and the only satisfied people are on the Texans sidelines


Bottom line, if the coach doesn't know the rules he's going to screw the pooch on a call and hurt his team. Yea it sucks for the team, and it even sucks for the Broncos, but this is on Schwartz, and I saw him saying that several times on the sidelines after the play. He cost his team by not knowing the rules.

I agree completely that the coach is resposnsible for knowing the rules, but the logic behind this rule makes zero sense. Why is it unsportsmanlike to ask for a challenge on a play that is already under review? There's no reason to make that an unsportsmanlike act unless we're simply more concerned with the ref's egos than we are with getting the call correct. It's like the league is saying they want to get credit for fixing a mistake and if anyone else tries to take credit they're out of order.

Are they going to start throwing a flag when WRs make the first down signal before the ref as well?

This rule doesn't affect the game at all in a positive way, all it does is add a layer of confusion and lead to more ways that the game can be adversley effected by poor calls. If the play is under review, and the cahllenge flag is thrown, just pick the flag up and move on with the review. Remove a challenge if you want to just for throwing the flag, but it doesn't effect anything and should not be considered unsportsmanlike. What's the deal?

lonestar
11-23-2012, 09:22 AM
Detroit had all the momentum prior to that play, which changed the entire complexion of the game. There's absolutely no way you can say that they "most likely" score on that drive regardless.

No where did I say absolutely.

Unfortunately I supposedly live in Texans country even though they are 900 miles from here, so I get a lot of their games even though I live closer to the Cards and Broncos.

So I watch their games and that is one hell of a team, with as much time as was on the clock I think they would have found away to Win.

The more I think about Kubes he may have been a bigger factor in winning in DEN than most folks realize.

ZONA
11-23-2012, 10:13 AM
I see what you are saying, but the rules say a team cannot receive a benefit from committing a penalty. Do I think its excessive, yes, but I think that PI can be excessive too, but that isn't going to change. Schwartz should have kept his emotions in check, the call would have been reversed and Houston would have had to continue the drive after a 7 yard run. IMHO this is a case of several people screwing up, the officials, and Schwartz, Schwartz just screwed up bigger because he took away the officials means of making the call right.

I'm not going to lie, if that had been Fox doing that I would have been mad as hell at the officials, but then mad as hell at Fox for not knowing the rules. Since I have have no real emotional investment in this game I just enjoyed Schwartz looking like a fool, again.


But PI is a play or action that happened on the field of play, by the players. Something a coach does is not an action of the play on the field. Yeah sure, if you want to call it a penalty, but really it's not a playing penalty made by players and maybe right there we should have that distinction.

As Baja pointed out, what if the coach walks up to the ref and knocks his hat off and spits in his face and tells him he's going to kick his MF ugly ass. That's a penalty on the coach, probably ejected from the game even. But that doesn't mean you don't try and get a play on the field called correctly. Throwing a challenge flag is not the same type of penalty as an on the field penalty by players. This so called "it cannot benefit the team" crap should not apply in this case. It's not ****in rocket science here. It's broken, they will fix it.

KipCorrington25
11-23-2012, 10:20 AM
Agreed. Players also should know how to play the game but that doesn't mean they won't make a mistake and get a penalty now and then. Everybody is human and we make mistakes, coaches are no different. Why should their mistake be so costly? Doesn't make any sense at all. Nobody is saying that they shouldn't know the rules. But if you don't think this is something that needs addressed next year something is very wrong. All you have to do is just imagine it happens to your team, we'll see how you feel then.

McDaniels is not human I refuse to recognize him as such.

Jetmeck
11-23-2012, 10:59 AM
This thread should be titled "I'm upset about the Lions game."


Aren't you ?

That would have helped us.

Jetmeck
11-23-2012, 11:03 AM
Bad juju for the NFL. Non union scrubs screwed up the first few games and now this.....................

As someone said in this thread the bottom line is to get the call correct..............I don't give a **** if every player on the Detroit Lions threw their jock on the field it still should have been reviewed and corrected.

DENVERDUI55
11-23-2012, 11:17 AM
It wasn't fair and it certainly didn't help.

You can come up with all the 'ya buts' you want but the rule is ridiculously excessive in it's punishment

I don't disagree that its not excessive but Detroit very easily could of one that game. Your kicker missed a 40 yard fg to win it. A player drops an INT that would of left a short fg to win. There was well over 30 minutes of football after the Schwartz f up.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-23-2012, 11:21 AM
Don't have a problem with it. Everyone knows that all scoring plays are automatically reviewed and it happened the week before in Atlanta. This is on Schwartz, and no one else.

Jetmeck
11-23-2012, 01:37 PM
Don't have a problem with it. Everyone knows that all scoring plays are automatically reviewed and it happened the week before in Atlanta. This is on Schwartz, and no one else.



No your dead wrong. The bottom line is getting the call right....especially a possible game changing one.

Throwing a red hankie at the wrong time shouldn't be cause for losing the game.

ZONA
11-23-2012, 01:50 PM
Don't have a problem with it. Everyone knows that all scoring plays are automatically reviewed and it happened the week before in Atlanta. This is on Schwartz, and no one else.

So your fine with the play on the field was called wrong and has to stay wrong because of this rule? Well why don't we keep going that direction even more. Let's just get rid of instant replay so even more plays on the field can be called wrong and with no chance of being corrected. There ya go, that's real logic for you.

Honestly, say it back to yourself really slow and see if it makes a great deal of sense. A play is going to be reviewed, who cares if it's from a challenge flag or an automatic review. What is so damn wrong with a coach throwing a challenge flag? I don't get why that has to be unsportsmanlike. The only intent that coach is trying to achieve is just the opposite. He's looking to get the play corrected. There's no intent to cheat or anything. Sorry dude, it's a stupid rule the way it's set up now. All the guys on NFL network are saying they hate it, that it's wrong and has to be changed. I would say 95% of people think it needs to be changed. If you're in the 5%, well way to be maverick I guess.

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 02:47 PM
Holy moly, some people here need to go to an analogy and metaphor refresher course. There's little to no logical relationship between the scenarios being presented as comparable.

Now, that said, I don't disagree that it's a very harsh penalty. I think there's a half dozen different rules that I could present are more unfair than this rule. There's 3 instances in which a coach can't throw that flag and it's punishable. Any other scenario (simply unreviewable play), they give the flag back and explain it's not reviewable. They could have "Turnover, scoring play, inside 2 minutes" written on their palm and be safe from penalty for this situation. I just don't take pity on a coach that can't keep calm long enough to make a sensible decision when he has 46 players that he's trying to hold accountable for their every decision in a football game.

The fact that Schwartz denied Suh's nutshot after the game is just more evidence that the guy's an idiot and deserves to be punished for his stupidity.

Fix everything else then worry about not overpunishing for blatantly stupid mistakes.

Vine
11-23-2012, 02:56 PM
Just wait until this rule is EXPLOITED by an opposing coach for his gain. For example, imagine if Jim Schwartz did NOT throw his red flag, but Texan's coach Gary Kubiak throw his red challenge flag on purpose to negate any chance of this play being reviewed. Yeah, he'll gladly take a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty and keep a cheap touchdown his team shouldn't have.

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 02:58 PM
Just wait until this rule is EXPLOITED by an opposing coach for his gain. For example, imagine if Jim Schwartz did NOT throw his red flag, but Texan's coach Gary Kubiak throw his red challenge flag on purpose to negate any chance of this play being reviewed. Yeah, he'll gladly take a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty and keep a cheap touchdown his team shouldn't have.

You really think they'd be so gullible as to fall for such a blatant exploit of the rules?

Vine
11-23-2012, 02:59 PM
I like the college system better. No challenges - just the booth stopping play if they see a play that needs to be reviewed. It doesn't slow the college game down too much.

The Detroit/Houston game was a good one - one of the better Thanksgiving Day games in recent memory.


Good point, and maybe this fiasco could end up resulting in an overhaul in how replay is handled on the NFL level.

baja
11-23-2012, 03:02 PM
Holy moly, some people here need to go to an analogy and metaphor refresher course. There's little to no logical relationship between the scenarios being presented as comparable.

Now, that said, I don't disagree that it's a very harsh penalty. I think there's a half dozen different rules that I could present are more unfair than this rule. There's 3 instances in which a coach can't throw that flag and it's punishable. Any other scenario (simply unreviewable play), they give the flag back and explain it's not reviewable. They could have "Turnover, scoring play, inside 2 minutes" written on their palm and be safe from penalty for this situation. I just don't take pity on a coach that can't keep calm long enough to make a sensible decision when he has 46 players that he's trying to hold accountable for their every decision in a football game.

The fact that Schwartz denied Suh's nutshot after the game is just more evidence that the guy's an idiot and deserves to be punished for his stupidity.

Fix everything else then worry about not overpunishing for blatantly stupid mistakes.


I wouldn't mind seeing that.

baja
11-23-2012, 03:04 PM
Just wait until this rule is EXPLOITED by an opposing coach for his gain. For example, imagine if Jim Schwartz did NOT throw his red flag, but Texan's coach Gary Kubiak throw his red challenge flag on purpose to negate any chance of this play being reviewed. Yeah, he'll gladly take a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty and keep a cheap touchdown his team shouldn't have.

What would be his cover reason for doing that?

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 03:08 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing that.

I'll start you with when a team commits a regular penalty and then a personal foul. You have to decline the regular penalty and accept the personal foul or vice versa. For that kind of penalty, they should stack. Otherwise, particularly on a big penalty like PI, why not go "The Replacements" and start suplexing everyone?`

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 03:09 PM
And to present a bit more than foolish screaming in this thread, I went looking for an actual analysis of the rule and found the following. Apparently it's not the act of throwing the flag, it's the act of incurring ANY penalty that prevents it.

"The rule was put in place really to prevent a team in a challenge situation from creating a delay," Blandino said, according to NFL.com. "They're thinking about challenging the play, they commit a foul, jump offside, false start, now they've given themselves more time to make that decision.

"So we tell our coaches, 'Don't throw the flag.' Our officials should get to the sideline, explain to them that the play is not challengeable, and then the replay official is looking at it and he will stop the game and look at it if he deems that it needs to be stopped."

The New York Times cited a specific example of a team of puposely incurring a foul in a Giants-Redskins game in 2010. In essence, the Giants recovered a fumble but there was doubt as to whether the Redskins player had been down. While Washington contemplated a challenge, an official spotted the ball and Redskins linebacker London Fletcher kicked it and was flagged for delay of game. During that course of time, Redskins coach Mike Shanahan challenged the ruling of a fumble.

According to The Times, the competition committee acknowledged the benefit of time a team could gain by committing a penalty in this scenario, so the rule was changed.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8664826/nfl-competition-committee-reconsider-challenge-rule

Vine
11-23-2012, 03:13 PM
You really think they'd be so gullible as to fall for such a blatant exploit of the rules?

The NFL has a knack for enforcing stupid rules that often seem to defy common sense. I wouldn't put it past the NFL.

baja
11-23-2012, 03:14 PM
The play in question on Sunday was going to be automatically reviewed.

Apples & oranges

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 03:15 PM
The NFL has a knack for enforcing stupid rules that often seem to defy common sense. I wouldn't put it past the NFL.

A quick example of something that'd be so blatantly silly?

Vine
11-23-2012, 03:17 PM
What would be his cover reason for doing that?

Does there have to be one? I always thought NFL coaches could challenge any play they want to, so if we want to enforce rules with obscure technicalities, then I can easily imagine an opposing coach abusing this obscure technicality, and the NFL, with their stubbornness when it comes to enforcing rules and situations, would have no choice but to allow such a scenario develop.

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 03:17 PM
The play in question on Sunday was going to be automatically reviewed.

Apples & oranges

It stops any and all review. Teams in the past have called timeouts within the last two minutes and while the timeout was going, the replay guy has buzzed down for an automatic review. It's just an across the board rule.

I could still see if they changed it to exempt scoring/turnover plays but it gives some insight as to why the rule exists.

Now, all that aside, it's the VERY RULE under which this game changing ruling was determined. How can that be apples and oranges unless you're a stupid dickwad trying to be argumentative, as usual?

baja
11-23-2012, 03:18 PM
Does there have to be one? I always thought NFL coaches could challenge any play they want to, so if we want to enforce rules with obscure technicalities, then I can easily imagine an opposing coach abusing this obscure technicality, and the NFL, with their stubbornness when it comes to enforcing rules and situations, would have no choice but to allow such a scenario develop.

What exactly would see Kupes challenging

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Does there have to be one? I always thought NFL coaches could challenge any play they want to, so if we want to enforce rules with obscure technicalities, then I can easily imagine an opposing coach abusing this obscure technicality, and the NFL, with their stubbornness when it comes to enforcing rules and situations, would have no choice but to allow such a scenario develop.

The lack of common sense in this thread is telling me to go do something else...

baja
11-23-2012, 03:21 PM
It stops any and all review. Teams in the past have called timeouts within the last two minutes and while the timeout was going, the replay guy has buzzed down for an automatic review. It's just an across the board rule.

I could still see if they changed it to exempt scoring/turnover plays but it gives some insight as to why the rule exists.

Now, all that aside, it's the VERY RULE under which this game changing ruling was determined. How can that be apples and oranges unless you're a stupid dillwad trying to be argumentative, as usual?

I'd explain it to you but you are not worth the effort (should be self evident anyway)

see ya sonny.

Vine
11-23-2012, 03:22 PM
A quick example of something that'd be so blatantly silly?

Uhh, the Texan TD that was ultimately allowed to stand only because the opposing coach prematurely threw his challenge flag even though it was so obvious to anyone watching the game that the Texan player was tackled down by contact.

Another example is to continue to allow the very strict NFL touchdown catch rule to continue to be the rule.

Cito Pelon
11-23-2012, 03:24 PM
The NFL sure comes up with some ridiculous rules. Remember the short-lived rule where the defense could be penalized because the home crowd was too loud when the road offense was on the field? And just a couple years ago they tried to do some jimmy-jack thing where the back judge had to not only spot the ball but run back into position ten yards behind the LOS before the ball could be snapped. That got changed mid-season.

Vine
11-23-2012, 03:25 PM
The lack of common sense in this thread is telling me to go do something else...

There is more common sense in this thread than the NFL has.

extralife
11-23-2012, 03:44 PM
He can challenge the catch or that the runner was out of bounds, doesn't matter. As long as he attempts to challenge, he will get a 15 yard penalty and the official review will be cancelled.

so the coach <i>of the team that scored</i> is going to challenge the ruling on the field of a catch? and he's going to do that with a straight face? and the refs are going to allow it?

Vine
11-23-2012, 03:57 PM
so the coach <i>of the team that scored</i> is going to challenge the ruling on the field of a catch? and he's going to do that with a straight face? and the refs are going to allow it?

Yes. The rules state that the officials have to honor it.


Here is a plausible situation in which a coach exploits this ridiculous rule for his own gain:

Imagine that the quarterback on a passing down is WAY PAST the line of scrimmage, by like 3 yards when he throws a pass that results in a touchdown, and every ref somehow misses it, and the call on the field is a touchdown. The HC of the offensive team, obviously knows that the automatic review is going to negate the touchdown, so he throws a challenge flag knowing that this challenge flag is going to negate any official review. He gladly takes a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty on the kickoff in exchange for a badly blown missed illegal forward pass call that cannot be challenged because the HC smartly threw his red flag preventing an official review from being able to occur.

lonestar
11-23-2012, 04:03 PM
they are going to change the rule in the off season.. NEXT rules committee meeting..

A mistake was made as being what they thought at the time was to stop Challenges being made to keep it from delaying the game..

it is not the ND of the world, like some of you are making it out to be..

The fact is the coach knew the rule and in the heat of the game made a mistake.... SO he and his team paid for it..

Unlike IMO that it would have made any difference.. HOU would have just went down and scored and instead of one play it would have been 6 or 8..

They are that good of a team, it was matter of time before they kicked into gear....

Play2win
11-23-2012, 04:12 PM
What would be his cover reason for doing that?

Duh... to win the ****ing game.

Vine
11-23-2012, 04:14 PM
they are going to change the rule in the off season.. NEXT rules committee meeting..

A mistake was made as being what they thought at the time was to stop Challenges being made to keep it from delaying the game..

it is not the ND of the world, like some of you are making it out to be..

The fact is the coach knew the rule and in the heat of the game made a mistake.... SO he and his team paid for it..

Unlike IMO that it would have made any difference.. HOU would have just went down and scored and instead of one play it would have been 6 or 8..

They are that good of a team, it was matter of time before they kicked into gear....

No. This was a 180 degree complete game-changing momentum play. The Detroit had all the momentum, there defense was playing decent at that point, and they were up by 10, and if the player would have been ruled down, I think it would have been 3rd and long (correct me if I'm wrong). Yes, there was a lot of game to be played after that, and yes, the Lions blew several chances to win it anyway, but I do not at all see the Texans winning that game if they were not gifted that ridiculous touchdown.

baja
11-23-2012, 04:16 PM
Duh... to win the ****ing game.

You need a challenge to throw the challenge flag what would have Kubes challenged?

It's not really that hard is it?

Play2win
11-23-2012, 04:18 PM
You need a challenge to throw the challenge flag what would have Kubes challenged?

It's not really that hard is it?

He could just challenge whether the runner was down or not.

baja
11-23-2012, 04:21 PM
He could just challenge whether the runner was down or not.

LOL it was called a TD for his team. So you are saying he'd challenge it wasn't.


Kubes, " thanks for the TD Ref. but I think the guy was down and we don't want that TD cause, you know, we didn't earn it.

lonestar
11-23-2012, 04:22 PM
No. This was a 180 degree complete game-changing momentum play. The Detroit had all the momentum, there defense was playing decent at that point, and they were up by 10, and if the player would have been ruled down, I think it would have been 3rd and long (correct me if I'm wrong). Yes, there was a lot of game to be played after that, and yes, the Lions blew several chances to win it anyway, but I do not at all see the Texans winning that game if they were not gifted that ridiculous touchdown.

who had the BALL when this happened and what were they doing, they were starting a drive..

YOU may not want to get it but KUBES is a hell of a coach..

probably made mikey look better than he really was..

there is little doubt in my mind that HOU would have won that game..

But you can believe what you want.. Right now all playoffs go through HOU or NE as it stands..

ZONA
11-23-2012, 04:33 PM
And to present a bit more than foolish screaming in this thread, I went looking for an actual analysis of the rule and found the following. Apparently it's not the act of throwing the flag, it's the act of incurring ANY penalty that prevents it.

"The rule was put in place really to prevent a team in a challenge situation from creating a delay," Blandino said, according to NFL.com. "They're thinking about challenging the play, they commit a foul, jump offside, false start, now they've given themselves more time to make that decision.

"So we tell our coaches, 'Don't throw the flag.' Our officials should get to the sideline, explain to them that the play is not challengeable, and then the replay official is looking at it and he will stop the game and look at it if he deems that it needs to be stopped."

The New York Times cited a specific example of a team of puposely incurring a foul in a Giants-Redskins game in 2010. In essence, the Giants recovered a fumble but there was doubt as to whether the Redskins player had been down. While Washington contemplated a challenge, an official spotted the ball and Redskins linebacker London Fletcher kicked it and was flagged for delay of game. During that course of time, Redskins coach Mike Shanahan challenged the ruling of a fumble.

According to The Times, the competition committee acknowledged the benefit of time a team could gain by committing a penalty in this scenario, so the rule was changed.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8664826/nfl-competition-committee-reconsider-challenge-rule


It doesn't matter. Again, the main thing to do is get the call right. If there is a play in question on a turnover or a score, the league should not be worried about game pace. Those are too important of plays to just throw to the wind just because of game pace.


And to the other guys point who is asking why couldn't Kubiac challenge the play? WTF? He would have to give a reason to challenge. What's he going to challenge? That his player was NOT down by contact? Please, try to make some sense.

ZONA
11-23-2012, 04:34 PM
who had the BALL when this happened and what were they doing, they were starting a drive..

YOU may not want to get it but KUBES is a hell of a coach..

probably made mikey look better than he really was..

there is little doubt in my mind that HOU would have won that game..

But you can believe what you want.. Right now all playoffs go through HOU or NE as it stands..

Little doubt you say? Dude, the Lions FG bounced off the upright. Translation, they were inches from winning the game. How does that translate in your brain as there is little doubt the Texans were going to win? Explain.

baja
11-23-2012, 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunk idiot kicker
He could just challenge whether the runner was down or not.



baja;
it was called a TD for his team. So you are saying he'd challenge it wasn't.


Kubes, " thanks for the TD Ref. but I think the guy was down and we don't want that TD cause, you know, we didn't earn it.




WELL!

Play2win
11-23-2012, 04:56 PM
LOL it was called a TD for his team. So you are saying he'd challenge it wasn't.




Who cares?

Yes.

Play2win
11-23-2012, 04:59 PM
WELL!

LOL! Some people are busy doing things...

baja
11-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Who cares?

Yes.

Not me but what you said was pretty silly, don't you agree?

Play2win
11-23-2012, 05:17 PM
not as silly as asking me if I think what I just said was silly. That's beyond silly.


Look, its simple chess to me. All that matters is the final outcome.

Unless there's some other NFL rule that I am also unaware of.... LOL

Beantown Bronco
11-23-2012, 05:24 PM
I still don't understand the inconsistencies in the league's rules.

There are plenty of instances of coaches throwing the challenge flags out there on unreviewable calls. What happens? Refs pick them up and hand them back with an explanation as to why it's not reviewable.

But God help you if you actually throw the flag on a reviewable play. You not only get a penalty, but now they won't even review it.

Vine
11-23-2012, 05:26 PM
I still don't understand the inconsistencies in the league's rules.

There are plenty of instances of coaches throwing the challenge flags out there on unreviewable calls. What happens? Refs pick them up and hand them back with an explanation as to why it's not reviewable.

But God help you if you actually throw the flag on a reviewable play. You not only get a penalty, but now they won't even review it.

Yeah, it is absolutely absurd. And some people defend this crap?

Beantown Bronco
11-23-2012, 05:27 PM
so the coach <i>of the team that scored</i> is going to challenge the ruling on the field of a catch? and he's going to do that with a straight face? and the refs are going to allow it?

Technically, they have to, unless there's something in the rule book that says you can only challenge calls that go against you. I'll bet there isn't.

Jetmeck
11-23-2012, 05:34 PM
Little doubt you say? Dude, the Lions FG bounced off the upright. Translation, they were inches from winning the game. How does that translate in your brain as there is little doubt the Texans were going to win? Explain.


Logic never ever enters the area between lonestar's ears.................

Jetmeck
11-23-2012, 05:34 PM
I still don't understand the inconsistencies in the league's rules.

There are plenty of instances of coaches throwing the challenge flags out there on unreviewable calls. What happens? Refs pick them up and hand them back with an explanation as to why it's not reviewable.

But God help you if you actually throw the flag on a reviewable play. You not only get a penalty, but now they won't even review it.



This boils it down to it......good post

baja
11-23-2012, 05:39 PM
not as silly as asking me if I think what I just said was silly. That's beyond silly.


Look, its simple chess to me. All that matters is the final outcome.

Unless there's some other NFL rule that I am also unaware of.... LOL

So let me get this straight. You say Kubes should challenge his own TD so it won't be overturned. Essentially cheating on national TV.

Do you have any idea the shiit storm that would start. Evidently not.


And you can me silly for pointing that out. OK

baja
11-23-2012, 05:45 PM
Technically, they have to, unless there's something in the rule book that says you can only challenge calls that go against you. I'll bet there isn't.

Sure they would have to follow the rules and not review the play but....


I doubt there is a HC out there that would do that for 7 points. Likely the league would make his team forfeit, fine him heavily and probably suspend his ass for a few games, all for 7 points? I doubt that deeply. ;D



Well maybe the Mastermind.

DarkHorse30
11-23-2012, 05:45 PM
I see it both ways...but in the end I just think the coaches need to learn the rules of their game...they are only paid millions of dollars...

it only sucks today because the Broncos are collateral damage to the grossly negligent head coaching of the Detroit Lions...

Bingo. If Linehan is such a freaking offensive genius, he should know how to run the ball a few times when you're at the 35, running time off the clock and putting your team up TWO scores. Instead the georgia doughface throws every time (In com plete) except for once when he gets sacked that pushes them out of range. This happened TWICE. Holy cow Detroit is fulla idiots.

Play2win
11-23-2012, 06:06 PM
I still don't understand the inconsistencies in the league's rules.

There are plenty of instances of coaches throwing the challenge flags out there on unreviewable calls. What happens? Refs pick them up and hand them back with an explanation as to why it's not reviewable.

But God help you if you actually throw the flag on a reviewable play. You not only get a penalty, but now they won't even review it.

The Houston Texans are the NEW Dallas Cowboys.

jmz313
11-23-2012, 06:08 PM
The rule is terrible because it simply takes the game out of the 22 players on the field's hands. He was tackled. Get the call right then disipline the rule offender. Its a professional sport. Let the players earn the outcome.

Play2win
11-23-2012, 06:15 PM
Or maybe The Houston Texans are the New NE Patriots, who were the New Dallas Cowboys.

The ever-evolving face of "America's Team"... LOL

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 06:42 PM
Uhh, the Texan TD that was ultimately allowed to stand only because the opposing coach prematurely threw his challenge flag even though it was so obvious to anyone watching the game that the Texan player was tackled down by contact.

Another example is to continue to allow the very strict NFL touchdown catch rule to continue to be the rule.

Neither are anywhere close to the same level. Not. At. All.

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 06:43 PM
Yes. The rules state that the officials have to honor it.


Here is a plausible situation in which a coach exploits this ridiculous rule for his own gain:

Imagine that the quarterback on a passing down is WAY PAST the line of scrimmage, by like 3 yards when he throws a pass that results in a touchdown, and every ref somehow misses it, and the call on the field is a touchdown. The HC of the offensive team, obviously knows that the automatic review is going to negate the touchdown, so he throws a challenge flag knowing that this challenge flag is going to negate any official review. He gladly takes a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty on the kickoff in exchange for a badly blown missed illegal forward pass call that cannot be challenged because the HC smartly threw his red flag preventing an official review from being able to occur.

Evidence please. I don't think there's any rule that says "If a team challenges something and it's clear they're trying to pull a fast one, you must honor their request".

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 06:48 PM
I still don't understand the inconsistencies in the league's rules.

There are plenty of instances of coaches throwing the challenge flags out there on unreviewable calls. What happens? Refs pick them up and hand them back with an explanation as to why it's not reviewable.

But God help you if you actually throw the flag on a reviewable play. You not only get a penalty, but now they won't even review it.

Well, what competitive advantage is gained by throwing a flag when no review is allowed? None that I can think of.

Now, what competitive advantage is gained by throwing a flag when the review isn't in your hands? You could be buying the review guy more time, you could be trying to influence a review (or at least the occurrence of a review), etc.

I can understand if they take away the provision of disqualifications applying to automatically reviewed plays but how else do you prevent teams from doing like they did in the link I posted before?

That One Guy
11-23-2012, 06:51 PM
The rule is terrible because it simply takes the game out of the 22 players on the field's hands. He was tackled. Get the call right then disipline the rule offender. Its a professional sport. Let the players earn the outcome.

One could easily argue the head coach is just as influential on the game as the players are. To claim a team losing because a head coach makes a mistake is wrong just doesn't make any sense to me.

jmz313
11-23-2012, 08:20 PM
One could easily argue the head coach is just as influential on the game as the players are. To claim a team losing because a head coach makes a mistake is wrong just doesn't make any sense to me.

A coach throwing a red peice of fabric on the ground has no baring on what happened while the clock was running and the players were playing NFL football. The RB was down by contact, tackled by a defender doing his job, period.

....."integrity" of the game.

ZONA
11-23-2012, 08:42 PM
Now, what competitive advantage is gained by throwing a flag when the review isn't in your hands? You could be buying the review guy more time, you could be trying to influence a review (or at least the occurrence of a review), etc.

I can understand if they take away the provision of disqualifications applying to automatically reviewed plays but how else do you prevent teams from doing like they did in the link I posted before?

Well you can't gain an advantage throwing a challenge flag trying to give the reviewer more time. If he feels he needs more time he just signals the ref on the field and they hold up play until the review is made. There is no advantage for the other coach throwing the flag, and he would have to give reason of what he's challenging. If there is none, he doesn't get a challenge. That argument is very weak.

HAT
11-23-2012, 08:47 PM
Well you can't gain an advantage throwing a challenge flag trying to give the reviewer more time. If he feels he needs more time he just signals the ref on the field and they hold up play until the review is made. There is no advantage for the other coach throwing the flag, and he would have to give reason of what he's challenging. If there is none, he doesn't get a challenge. That argument is very weak.

A coach could simply throw it and say there should be 1 more (or less) second on the clock when the ball broke the plane.

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2012, 03:57 AM
Well, what competitive advantage is gained by throwing a flag when no review is allowed? None that I can think of.


An extra timeout for your defense.

More time to lobby the officials, thus potentially influencing future "makeup calls."

That One Guy
11-24-2012, 04:51 AM
Well you can't gain an advantage throwing a challenge flag trying to give the reviewer more time. If he feels he needs more time he just signals the ref on the field and they hold up play until the review is made. There is no advantage for the other coach throwing the flag, and he would have to give reason of what he's challenging. If there is none, he doesn't get a challenge. That argument is very weak.

The rule is a general one which applies to any and all reviews. This includes inside the 2 minute warning booth reviews and regular coach's reviews. The rule has to stand for those instances. For instances where a play has to be confirmed before play can continue, I could definitely see there to be a difference. I'm just saying the rule itself doesn't need to go, they just need to take out the automatically reviewed plays, if anything.

That One Guy
11-24-2012, 04:55 AM
A coach throwing a red peice of fabric on the ground has no baring on what happened while the clock was running and the players were playing NFL football. The RB was down by contact, tackled by a defender doing his job, period.

....."integrity" of the game.

90% of unsportsmanlike conduct calls don't actually impact the game. They're a punishment for being unsportsmanlike.

I agree that no true harm could be done by throwing a flag on a play that has to be confirmed before the game can continue. I see that. However, I think the rule needs to stay on the books for the other types of reviews so if it's a matter of taking the rule out entirely for the season or leaving it in entirely, I'd much rather they leave it in. It just shouldn't be that hard to not throw a flag when you aren't allowed to throw it.

That One Guy
11-24-2012, 04:58 AM
An extra timeout for your defense.

More time to lobby the officials, thus potentially influencing future "makeup calls."

Those things aren't timing critical in the way delaying a game trying to get a review from the booth is. Those things both happen entirely outside the scope of the challenge scenario just the same.

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2012, 06:33 AM
I'd much rather they leave it in. It just shouldn't be that hard to not throw a flag when you aren't allowed to throw it.

Once again, there are of instances of coaches throwing flags on plays that ARE NOT reviewable every week and there's no penalty. They simply pick up the flag, hand it to the coach and explain why it's not reviewable.

The rule is inconsistent in its current form.

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2012, 06:34 AM
Those things aren't timing critical in the way delaying a game trying to get a review from the booth is. Those things both happen entirely outside the scope of the challenge scenario just the same.

The rule doesn't specify "critical" or not. It simply specifies "delay in the game". By definition, throwing a flag and essentially gaining an extra timeout is a "delay in the game".

baja
11-24-2012, 07:25 AM
I think the rule will be changed but going forward what coach is stupid enough to throw the flag at the wrong time now.

Dedhed
11-24-2012, 08:03 AM
And to present a bit more than foolish screaming in this thread, I went looking for an actual analysis of the rule and found the following. Apparently it's not the act of throwing the flag, it's the act of incurring ANY penalty that prevents it.

"The rule was put in place really to prevent a team in a challenge situation from creating a delay," Blandino said, according to NFL.com. "They're thinking about challenging the play, they commit a foul, jump offside, false start, now they've given themselves more time to make that decision.

"So we tell our coaches, 'Don't throw the flag.' Our officials should get to the sideline, explain to them that the play is not challengeable, and then the replay official is looking at it and he will stop the game and look at it if he deems that it needs to be stopped."

The New York Times cited a specific example of a team of puposely incurring a foul in a Giants-Redskins game in 2010. In essence, the Giants recovered a fumble but there was doubt as to whether the Redskins player had been down. While Washington contemplated a challenge, an official spotted the ball and Redskins linebacker London Fletcher kicked it and was flagged for delay of game. During that course of time, Redskins coach Mike Shanahan challenged the ruling of a fumble.

According to The Times, the competition committee acknowledged the benefit of time a team could gain by committing a penalty in this scenario, so the rule was changed.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8664826/nfl-competition-committee-reconsider-challenge-rule

How does this apply at all? If the penalty is for throwing the challenge flag they aren't creating a delay to see if they want to challenge. They are challenging.

If the play is under review they aren't creating a delay either. It's a nonsense rule that only creates an opportunity for the type of game changing blunder we saw Thursday.

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2012, 08:21 AM
How does this apply at all? If the penalty is for throwing the challenge flag they aren't creating a delay to see if they want to challenge. They are challenging.

If the play is under review they aren't creating a delay either. It's a nonsense rule that only creates an opportunity for the type of game changing blunder we saw Thursday.

Exactly. This x 100.

baja
11-24-2012, 08:27 AM
There is talk the league might review and change that rule NOW.

They are talking about it on Sirius

DHallblows
11-24-2012, 08:47 AM
How does this apply at all? If the penalty is for throwing the challenge flag they aren't creating a delay to see if they want to challenge. They are challenging.

If the play is under review they aren't creating a delay either. It's a nonsense rule that only creates an opportunity for the type of game changing blunder we saw Thursday.

^This

That One Guy
11-24-2012, 10:20 AM
Once again, there are of instances of coaches throwing flags on plays that ARE NOT reviewable every week and there's no penalty. They simply pick up the flag, hand it to the coach and explain why it's not reviewable.

The rule is inconsistent in its current form.

I never thought you to be the kind to purposely take something out of context like that. I'm not gonna play your games anymore if you're just trying to argue.

That One Guy
11-24-2012, 10:23 AM
How does this apply at all? If the penalty is for throwing the challenge flag they aren't creating a delay to see if they want to challenge. They are challenging.

If the play is under review they aren't creating a delay either. It's a nonsense rule that only creates an opportunity for the type of game changing blunder we saw Thursday.

It's just a generally written rule at this point. Maybe the rule needs rewritten but the premise for the rule is sound. That's how it applies. It's not just some silly ruling that doesn't make sense at all.

The current rule says ANY penalty means previous plays cannot be reviewed. Whether incorrectly throwing a flag should trigger that rule or not could be reconsidered. Discarding the rule in its entirety should not be considered, however.

Dedhed
11-24-2012, 11:07 AM
It's just a generally written rule at this point. Maybe the rule needs rewritten but the premise for the rule is sound. That's how it applies. It's not just some silly ruling that doesn't make sense at all.

The current rule says ANY penalty means previous plays cannot be reviewed. Whether incorrectly throwing a flag should trigger that rule or not could be reconsidered. Discarding the rule in its entirety should not be considered, however.

The premise is not at all sound. The rule states that the team cannot benefit from a delay that a penalty causes. In this case the penalty is a complete fabrication because the play is already under review. It's a completely silly rule that doesn't make any sense.

What you're failing to acknowldege is the difference between causing a delay to then challenge, and challenging and then being flagged. The decision is over and done with; therefore the team is not benefitting from the penalty.

"The rule was put in place really to prevent a team in a challenge situation from creating a delay,"

This is the premise you cited, and it's not at all applicable to this sitaution.

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2012, 02:25 PM
I never thought you to be the kind to purposely take something out of context like that. I'm not gonna play your games anymore if you're just trying to argue.

Not at all what I'm doing. You need to read back through the exchange objectively.