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baja
11-22-2012, 07:46 AM
It's now about the math for the Broncos which means it's now about solving the problems for the rest of the AFC West. Denver took control of the division this past Sunday as the Broncos completed a season sweep of the Chargers.
At 7-3, the Broncos have created an enormous gap between themselves and the rest of the division and they have also created plenty of unrest in the wake of that.
Things are to the boiling point in Kansas City and San Diego with Oakland Raiders managing general partner Mark Davis having also made it clear he's not happy with his team's performance in the first year of their own rebuilding project.
So, after a look at the video and conversations with scouts and personnel executives around the league, here is a look at the AFC West:
KANSAS CITY CHIEFS
The lowdown: Run your finger down the list of the league's leading receivers and it takes until you get to No. 26 in yards receiving (626) and you will go No. 23 for catches (49) before you find the name of a Chiefs player.
They have the 28th- and 38th-ranked quarterbacks in the league in Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn. They have three starting offensive linemen who are injured at the moment left tackle Branden Albert (back), center/guard Ryan Lilja (knee) and guard Jon Asomoah (thumb).
And they have thrown more interceptions (15) and lost more fumbles (16) than any team in the league.
So it's no real surprise the Chiefs are now the lowest scoring offense in the NFL at just over 15 points a game.
But this isn't a new problem. They were 31st in scoring last season (13.3 points per game) and were 31st in 2007 (14.1).
It's a far cry from the offense that scored 58 touchdowns in 2004, the same year current Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning threw 49 touchdown passes for the Colts. But the steady erosion of talent is staggering from a team that had three 55-catch receivers and three 500-yard rushers less than a decade

Brady Quinn will start for the Chiefs against the Broncos on Sunday. But does it matter? (Getty Images)
ago.
And simply running Matt Cassel out of town won't fix it. NFL personnel people questioned the Chiefs depth chart before the season started, many privately chuckling at so many public predictions of a playoff team.
Those criticisms have proven true and the team's recent injuries and lack of quality replacements on the two-deep have only made it even more glaring.
Good to know: Cornerback Stanford Routt was released by both the Raiders and the Chiefs in a 10-month span, with Kansas City having sent him on his way earlier this month.
But Routt, who hasn't played in the last two games since his Nov. 5 release, is still tied for the team lead in interceptions with two. Brandon Flowers also has two.
A good read: The Chiefs' disconnect with their angry fan base grows deeper. Sam Mellinger on the continued, and growing, divide between the team and its fans.
OAKLAND RAIDERS......


Read more: AFC West: Denver Broncos' success has division scrambling - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22045082/afc-west-denver-broncos-success-has-division-scrambling#ixzz2Cy07JVF9
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

baja
11-22-2012, 08:07 AM
Chiefs’ disconnect with angry fan base grows deeper

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/11/18/3924303/sam-mellinger-chiefs-disconnect.html#storylink=cpy

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/11/18/3924303/sam-mellinger-chiefs-disconnect.html

baja
11-22-2012, 08:08 AM
Oakland Raiders' latest debacle leaves Mark Davis fuming


http://www.insidebayarea.com/raiders/ci_22023582

baja
11-22-2012, 08:09 AM
Chargers fans not amused by team's 15% off sale


http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/nov/19/chargers-fans-amusing-not-amused-teams-15-sale/

SpringStein
11-22-2012, 08:14 AM
By next year, Fox will be the "senior" HC in the AFC West.

Hamrob
11-22-2012, 09:14 AM
I think all of these so called analysts are no more experts than we are. I love that they are now chuckling about the Chiefs and saying that they lack the depth to compete. Same crap they were saying about the Broncos.

You know what the differnce is? Peyton Manning. Sure we have some great talent: Von, Doom, Champ, Thomas etc. But, the Chiefs have some great players too.

To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff!

In my opinion....the Chiefs should have kept Orton....and drafted a young guy in last years draft. That would have been thier best shot. Orton is better than both Cassel and Quinn...and could have been servicable with the talent they do have on that football team.

And for Rivers, and Palmer...those guys are not top-10 caliber guys....not right now anyway...and it's not because of the talent around them. Both guys have plenty of play makers in my opinion.

My top 10:

Manning
Brady
Rogers
Brees
Ryan
Roethlesberger
Manning
RG III
Luck
Freeman

On the fringe:
Flaco, Schaub, Romo, Cutler, Newton, Stafford, Rivers

**The Ravens and Texans are the only teams that contradict my opnion. I believe both Flaco and Schaub are above average, but not special. Each of the guys I have on the Fringe could move up depending on more experience or fewer mistakes...but, I think they are who they are. I think my top 7 guys would instantly make most teams better. RG III, Luck, and Freeman all have what it takes to be in that same category within the next few years.

BroncoMan4ever
11-22-2012, 09:29 AM
I think all of these so called analysts are no more experts than we are. I love that they are now chuckling about the Chiefs and saying that they lack the depth to compete. Same crap they were saying about the Broncos.

You know what the differnce is? Peyton Manning. Sure we have some great talent: Von, Doom, Champ, Thomas etc. But, the Chiefs have some great players too.

To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff!

In my opinion....the Chiefs should have kept Orton....and drafted a young guy in last years draft. That would have been thier best shot. Orton is better than both Cassel and Quinn...and could have been servicable with the talent they do have on that football team.

And for Rivers, and Palmer...those guys are not top-10 caliber guys....not right now anyway...and it's not because of the talent around them. Both guys have plenty of play makers in my opinion.

My top 10:

Manning
Brady
Rogers
Brees
Ryan
Roethlesberger
Manning
RG III
Luck
Freeman

On the fringe:
Flaco, Schaub, Romo, Cutler, Newton, Stafford, Rivers

**The Ravens and Texans are the only teams that contradict my opnion. I believe both Flaco and Schaub are above average, but not special. Each of the guys I have on the Fringe could move up depending on more experience or fewer mistakes...but, I think they are who they are. I think my top 7 guys would instantly make most teams better. RG III, Luck, and Freeman all have what it takes to be in that same category within the next few years.
Why is Luck considered elite by so many? He has as many INTs as TDs (12) a below 60% completion rate, 8 fumbles and a passer rating of 77. He has shown flashes but right now is not a top 10 QB. Schaub and Stafford are top 10 and should be listed ahead of Luck, Freeman and RGIII.

NFLBRONCO
11-22-2012, 09:59 AM
If Peyton played on all 4 teams in AFC West. The AFC West would be the toughest division overnight.

baja
11-22-2012, 10:06 AM
If Peyton played on all 4 teams in AFC West. The AFC West would be the toughest division overnight.

Plus he's have a shiit load of frequent flier miles. ;D

NFLBRONCO
11-22-2012, 10:13 AM
Plus he's have a shiit load of frequent flier miles. ;D

LOL

He can have more Pappa John franchises too

Kaylore
11-22-2012, 10:53 AM
I expected the Broncos to surge ahead to a 10 win team. I didn't expect every single other team in the division to regress so horribly. That is a surprise. You would think at least one team would be improving. The Raiders, for example, were starting to get better and now have regressed. The Chargers have improved in some things but still suck in a lot of others. And the Chiefs have just been absolute garbage. You were thinking they might be like the Kyle Boller Ravens of the early 2000's; Great defense, horrible offense.

For some reason the entire AFC West is garbage.

baja
11-22-2012, 10:56 AM
I expected the Broncos to surge ahead to a 10 win team. I didn't expect every single other team in the division to regress so horribly. That is a surprise. You would think at least one team would be improving. The Raiders, for example, were starting to get better and now have regressed. The Chargers have improved in some things but still suck in a lot of others. And the Chiefs have just been absolute garbage. You were thinking they might be like the Kyle Boller Ravens of the early 2000's; Great defense, horrible offense.

For some reason the entire AFC West is garbage.

The Broncos play in the AFC West. ;D

OrangeSe7en
11-22-2012, 11:10 AM
I think all of these so called analysts are no more experts than we are. I love that they are now chuckling about the Chiefs and saying that they lack the depth to compete. Same crap they were saying about the Broncos.

You know what the differnce is? Peyton Manning. Sure we have some great talent: Von, Doom, Champ, Thomas etc. But, the Chiefs have some great players too.

To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff!

In my opinion....the Chiefs should have kept Orton....and drafted a young guy in last years draft. That would have been thier best shot. Orton is better than both Cassel and Quinn...and could have been servicable with the talent they do have on that football team.

And for Rivers, and Palmer...those guys are not top-10 caliber guys....not right now anyway...and it's not because of the talent around them. Both guys have plenty of play makers in my opinion.

My top 10:

Manning
Brady
Rogers
Brees
Ryan
Roethlesberger
Manning
RG III
Luck
Freeman

On the fringe:
Flaco, Schaub, Romo, Cutler, Newton, Stafford, Rivers

**The Ravens and Texans are the only teams that contradict my opnion. I believe both Flaco and Schaub are above average, but not special. Each of the guys I have on the Fringe could move up depending on more experience or fewer mistakes...but, I think they are who they are. I think my top 7 guys would instantly make most teams better. RG III, Luck, and Freeman all have what it takes to be in that same category within the next few years.

You're just reverse engineering your QB ratings from team success.

The Jets have been to two AFC Ch games with Sanchez at QB. Yeah, we all know that the league has tailored its game to favor the passing game through several iterations of rule changes that makes the game barely recognizable to what it was 15 years ago. And it definitely helps to have a good QB. But perhaps the more glaring reality is that you can't have poor QB play. If you have everything else plus competent (not elite) QB play, you can still win. Houston continued winning last year with a rookie 3rd stringer...and even won a playoff game with Yates. Yates isn't elite. Actually, neither is Schaub.

lonestar
11-22-2012, 11:58 AM
I think all of these so called analysts are no more experts than we are. I love that they are now chuckling about the Chiefs and saying that they lack the depth to compete. Same crap they were saying about the Broncos.

You know what the differnce is? Peyton Manning. Sure we have some great talent: Von, Doom, Champ, Thomas etc. But, the Chiefs have some great players too.

To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff!

In my opinion....the Chiefs should have kept Orton....and drafted a young guy in last years draft. That would have been thier best shot. Orton is better than both Cassel and Quinn...and could have been servicable with the talent they do have on that football team.

And for Rivers, and Palmer...those guys are not top-10 caliber guys....not right now anyway...and it's not because of the talent around them. Both guys have plenty of play makers in my opinion.

My top 10:

Manning
Brady
Rogers
Brees
Ryan
Roethlesberger
Manning
RG III
Luck
Freeman

On the fringe:
Flaco, Schaub, Romo, Cutler, Newton, Stafford, Rivers

**The Ravens and Texans are the only teams that contradict my opnion. I believe both Flaco and Schaub are above average, but not special. Each of the guys I have on the Fringe could move up depending on more experience or fewer mistakes...but, I think they are who they are. I think my top 7 guys would instantly make most teams better. RG III, Luck, and Freeman all have what it takes to be in that same category within the next few years.

:thumbs:

I agree mostly but also believe that great players playing in a poor scheme, poor coaching will kill their talent..

KC has a bunch of talent, but something is not right.. I thought Crennell would make the difference but perhaps he is what he is a DC ONLY..

lonestar
11-22-2012, 12:01 PM
I expected the Broncos to surge ahead to a 10 win team. I didn't expect every single other team in the division to regress so horribly. That is a surprise. You would think at least one team would be improving. The Raiders, for example, were starting to get better and now have regressed. The Chargers have improved in some things but still suck in a lot of others. And the Chiefs have just been absolute garbage. You were thinking they might be like the Kyle Boller Ravens of the early 2000's; Great defense, horrible offense.

For some reason the entire AFC West is garbage.

As for SAN did you see Rivers falling apart so often in games like he has?

While not a top five guy when he is on he is damned good..

OrangeSe7en
11-22-2012, 12:03 PM
:thumbs:

I agree mostly but also believe that great players playing in a poor scheme, poor coaching will kill their talent..

KC has a bunch of talent, but something is not right.. I thought Crennell would make the difference but perhaps he is what he is a DC ONLY..

Seeing what has become of Cassel, really puts into perspective what a clownshow that McDaniels was.

If McDaniels had been successful in acquiring that turd, the Broncos probably wouldn't have Manning now and Denver would be in the same position as the Chiefs.

NUB
11-22-2012, 12:23 PM
I still believe the Chiefs are a talented team, player wise. But a bad headcoach can be very destructive; just look at how the 49ers turned around with Harbaugh after the Singletary debacle. And everybody knows it's difficult to get anywhere with a mediocre QB (see: Browns who are also a talented team, IMO). It wouldn't surprise me to see the Chiefs make some HC/QB changes this coming offseason and be a AFCW title contender next year.

The Chargers just look like they're imploding, though. I hope they keep Norv Turner, but they probably won't. Not now.

lonestar
11-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I still believe the Chiefs are a talented team, player wise. But a bad headcoach can be very destructive; just look at how the 49ers turned around with Harbaugh after the Singletary debacle. And everybody knows it's difficult to get anywhere with a mediocre QB (see: Browns who are also a talented team, IMO). It wouldn't surprise me to see the Chiefs make some HC/QB changes this coming offseason and be a AFCW title contender next year.

The Chargers just look like they're imploding, though. I hope they keep Norv Turner, but they probably won't. Not now.

:thumbs:

Then there is OAK with a bad owner part duex

Mogulseeker
11-22-2012, 01:39 PM
I expected the Broncos to surge ahead to a 10 win team. I didn't expect every single other team in the division to regress so horribly. That is a surprise. You would think at least one team would be improving. The Raiders, for example, were starting to get better and now have regressed. The Chargers have improved in some things but still suck in a lot of others. And the Chiefs have just been absolute garbage. You were thinking they might be like the Kyle Boller Ravens of the early 2000's; Great defense, horrible offense.

For some reason the entire AFC West is garbage.

Every time the Raiders finally get something going, they fire their coach.

Agamemnon
11-22-2012, 01:45 PM
I still believe the Chiefs are a talented team, player wise. But a bad headcoach can be very destructive; just look at how the 49ers turned around with Harbaugh after the Singletary debacle. And everybody knows it's difficult to get anywhere with a mediocre QB (see: Browns who are also a talented team, IMO). It wouldn't surprise me to see the Chiefs make some HC/QB changes this coming offseason and be a AFCW title contender next year.

The Chargers just look like they're imploding, though. I hope they keep Norv Turner, but they probably won't. Not now.

In today's NFL your roster needs to be absolutely loaded when you have QB's like Cassel and Quinn. The Chiefs roster has some talent here and there, but they are miles from being loaded.

And really, until Manning retires none of the other AFC West teams have much of a chance of really contending for the division.

lonestar
11-22-2012, 01:58 PM
Every time the Raiders finally get something going, they fire their coach.

Gruden was the real mistake. They had a team primed for long term winning.

But the EGO of the owner got in the way because John wanted to do it his way instead of the aldaviss way. he was building a nice team and had the talent to work with. IIRC the next year Gruden cleaned Oaks clock in the super bowl.

Bacchus
11-22-2012, 03:20 PM
If Peyton played on all 4 teams in AFC West. The AFC West would be the toughest division overnight.

Another thing. Whatever team he played for in the West that team would win the division, Kansas City, S.D. and Oakland. Whatever team signed him was going to win the division.

Hamrob
11-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Why is Luck considered elite by so many? He has as many INTs as TDs (12) a below 60% completion rate, 8 fumbles and a passer rating of 77. He has shown flashes but right now is not a top 10 QB. Schaub and Stafford are top 10 and should be listed ahead of Luck, Freeman and RGIII.Luck, RG III, and Freeman have the upside of being great. The guys that I listed on the fringe...are very good QB's, but not great.....they are not going to win Super Bowls for their teams. If they get a ring....it will be because of the rest of the team. Go ahead and try to make an argument that Schaub is a franchise QB....good luck! Take a way Johson, and Foster.........DONE. Plug PM in with any of the AFC West teams and they would be a playoff team. Luck has the potential....these others guys have already shown who they are.

Hamrob
11-22-2012, 05:19 PM
You're just reverse engineering your QB ratings from team success.

The Jets have been to two AFC Ch games with Sanchez at QB. Yeah, we all know that the league has tailored its game to favor the passing game through several iterations of rule changes that makes the game barely recognizable to what it was 15 years ago. And it definitely helps to have a good QB. But perhaps the more glaring reality is that you can't have poor QB play. If you have everything else plus competent (not elite) QB play, you can still win. Houston continued winning last year with a rookie 3rd stringer...and even won a playoff game with Yates. Yates isn't elite. Actually, neither is Schaub.I'm not reverse engineering SHOOOT. I believe those 10 guys are the guys who are true franchise QB's....the botton 3 have the talent and the ability...and for now should be included. The guys I've listed on the fringe...either have shown that they have issues, or just aren't that caliber of QB.

If Schaub were QB'ing the Chiefs....what would be their record??? Would they be a playoff team?? If I were the GM of the Chiefs...I'd take everyone of those top 10 guys before the guys I've listed on the fringe...for various reasons.

The moral of this story is: Franchise QB's are the #1 needed ingredient to winning championships and competing for one year in and year out. If you don't understand that...then, you don't understand the NFL. That's why even Jim Harbaugh is making a QB change with Alex Smith having a top 5 QB rating. Harbaugh knows that Smith is good but not elite...and winning a championship with him will be very difficult.

Hamrob
11-22-2012, 05:20 PM
:thumbs:

I agree mostly but also believe that great players playing in a poor scheme, poor coaching will kill their talent..

KC has a bunch of talent, but something is not right.. I thought Crennell would make the difference but perhaps he is what he is a DC ONLY..The biggest issue with K.C. is that they do not have a Franchise QB. Put Manning on that team...and they're in our position!

Kaylore
11-22-2012, 06:20 PM
Seeing what has become of Cassel, really puts into perspective what a clownshow that McDaniels was.

If McDaniels had been successful in acquiring that turd, the Broncos probably wouldn't have Manning now and Denver would be in the same position as the Chiefs.

We picked second overall. We were thar bad. Remember that Raider loss?

BroncoMan4ever
11-22-2012, 06:29 PM
Luck, RG III, and Freeman have the upside of being great. The guys that I listed on the fringe...are very good QB's, but not great.....they are not going to win Super Bowls for their teams. If they get a ring....it will be because of the rest of the team. Go ahead and try to make an argument that Schaub is a franchise QB....good luck! Take a way Johson, and Foster.........DONE. Plug PM in with any of the AFC West teams and they would be a playoff team. Luck has the potential....these others guys have already shown who they are.
They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

baja
11-22-2012, 06:35 PM
They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

I'd say with the way RGIII is playing you got to put him at the bottom of the top list.

Boltjolt
11-22-2012, 07:20 PM
I think all of these so called analysts are no more experts than we are. I love that they are now chuckling about the Chiefs and saying that they lack the depth to compete. Same crap they were saying about the Broncos.

You know what the differnce is? Peyton Manning. Sure we have some great talent: Von, Doom, Champ, Thomas etc. But, the Chiefs have some great players too.

To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff!

In my opinion....the Chiefs should have kept Orton....and drafted a young guy in last years draft. That would have been thier best shot. Orton is better than both Cassel and Quinn...and could have been servicable with the talent they do have on that football team.

And for Rivers, and Palmer...those guys are not top-10 caliber guys....not right now anyway...and it's not because of the talent around them. Both guys have plenty of play makers in my opinion.

My top 10:

Manning
Brady
Rogers
Brees
Ryan
Roethlesberger
Manning
RG III
Luck
Freeman

On the fringe:
Flaco, Schaub, Romo, Cutler, Newton, Stafford, Rivers

**The Ravens and Texans are the only teams that contradict my opnion. I believe both Flaco and Schaub are above average, but not special. Each of the guys I have on the Fringe could move up depending on more experience or fewer mistakes...but, I think they are who they are. I think my top 7 guys would instantly make most teams better. RG III, Luck, and Freeman all have what it takes to be in that same category within the next few years.

What? Arguably the worst OL in the league, worst HC, a RB who doesnt play most downs when he should, especially in crunch time(again, HC) WR's that havent been very good. Meachum and Royal have stunk this year and are getting outplayed badly buy a guy they got off the street who had no TC with them. Meachum has been a big disapointment.

Norv Turner is the biggest problem as Rodney Harrison pointed out rather forcefully the other day. Cant wait till he gets fired and if we have to lose every game the rest of the year to make it happen...ill all for it.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-22-2012, 07:36 PM
Meh. You guys will have a fun, pointless year or two with Manning.

Chiefs will control this division for 15 years with Geno Smith.

Hamrob
11-22-2012, 07:53 PM
What? Arguably the worst OL in the league, worst HC, a RB who doesnt play most downs when he should, especially in crunch time(again, HC) WR's that havent been very good. Meachum and Royal have stunk this year and are getting outplayed badly buy a guy they got off the street who had no TC with them. Meachum has been a big disapointment.

Norv Turner is the biggest problem as Rodney Harrison pointed out rather forcefully the other day. Cant wait till he gets fired and if we have to lose every game the rest of the year to make it happen...ill all for it.I've watch enough chargers games this year to see that...the team has plenty of talent. The defense is plenty solid, the running game is better than average...regardless of whether Mathews is in there or not, and they have good enough receivers to get the job done. Not to mention a HOF TE. Phillip Rivers has been absolutely pathetic. Some of the throws he's made are Tebowesk! How many picks has he thrown??? Looks like another 20+ int year...that's 2 in a row. Say what you want...but, he's regressed big time!

Hamrob
11-22-2012, 07:55 PM
They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take????????

baja
11-22-2012, 07:57 PM
O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take????????

For just this season?

BroncoMan4ever
11-22-2012, 08:18 PM
O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take????????

Am I playing to win now or am I looking to build a team from the ground up?

If I have a Broncos getting Peyton in an all in win now move I am taking Schaub. He has shown that he can get the job done and has more NFL experience.

If I am looking to build a franchise from the ground up I take RGIII. I take him for his pure athletic ability that makes him one of the most dangerous players, leadership ability and charisma.

Look, I'm not saying Luck, RGIII and Freeman are bad or won't amount to anything. I am saying that 10 games is not enough to be proclaimed a top 10 QB. And in the case of Freeman he has been too hot and cold for my liking

BroncoMan4ever
11-22-2012, 08:26 PM
I'd say with the way RGIII is playing you got to put him at the bottom of the top list.

I agree he has looked good, but in my mind he is still just a rookie and needs to do more than be a fantasy stud to be considered elite. In my eyes as a passer he at times looks like he plays not to make a mistake instead of going all out.

lonestar
11-22-2012, 08:32 PM
They have the POTENTIAL to be great, they aren't great now. Take Wayne away from Luck and he looks like Blaine Gabbert. Take Jackson from Freeman and he looks like the QB that people weren't sute he could be a franchise guy.

Potential is a funny thing. Quinn, Russell, Akili, Harrington, Carr are all guys who had potential but for whatever reason flamed out. Now I'm not saying that Luck, RGIII, and Freeman will go that way, but it is still to soon to put them ahead of a guy like Schaub or Flacco that have won games and played more than half a season.

Take Newton as an example he was unstoppable last year. Not so much this year. He carried that team last year, is ordinary this year. Even with loads of talent around him, nothing special.

delany
11-23-2012, 07:52 AM
I
To me, the bottom line is this: You have to have a top-10 QB to compete in this league. Teams that do....make the playoffs....teams that don't draft high until they find one. How's that for analysis? Pretty easy stuff

Agreed. It is so important that you still need to draft a super young guy like Twilight even after getting Peyton and trying to make a Super Bowl run.

The pipeline never should be empty for a top ten potential QB on your roster. If Brock doesn't work out, get another one and another one etc. If Peyton retires and you still haven't found your guy that has top ten ability, break the bank on a FA one if you can. It is that important for success.

I love all the shots in game of Brock sitting right next to Peyton on the sidelne. Glued at the hip and soaking it all in. I love hearing the stories of Peyton stopping the film in the pre-season and quizzing Brock on different things.

Brock isn't assured of being a top ten QB....but he has the raw talent and he is being coached up the right way. Hopefully Denver will not have to worry about this for a long time.

Tombstone RJ
11-23-2012, 02:32 PM
O.K. smart guy....your the GM:

You get the choice of Schaub, or:

Luck
RGIII
Freeman

Who do you take????????

Luck, and there's really no point in discussing it any further.

Cache Glades
11-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Take Newton as an example he was unstoppable last year. Not so much this year. He carried that team last year, is ordinary this year. Even with loads of talent around him, nothing special.

I know right. Nothing special. Man I was going to say the same thing man!!

lonestar
11-23-2012, 08:29 PM
I know right. Nothing special. Man I was going to say the same thing man!!

I think he was great last year because they could not stop him. this year a DC figured out how to ans since then NaDA.

Next year it will be rg3 and Lucks turn. Although Luck maybe the real deal, baby Peyton.

Boltjolt
11-26-2012, 07:26 PM
I've watch enough chargers games this year to see that...the team has plenty of talent. The defense is plenty solid, the running game is better than average...regardless of whether Mathews is in there or not, and they have good enough receivers to get the job done. Not to mention a HOF TE. Phillip Rivers has been absolutely pathetic. Some of the throws he's made are Tebowesk! How many picks has he thrown??? Looks like another 20+ int year...that's 2 in a row. Say what you want...but, he's regressed big time!

I guess you havent watched enough no matter what you claim. First and foremost, Norv Turner is the biggest problem with the team. The OL is second and is just absolutely horrible.

Our running game isnt good at all. We havent had a 100 yard rusher all year and are 25th in rushing with only 4 rushing TD's,... averaging under 4 YPC when Mathews last year was near 5 YPC . The running game was crap from week 1 of preseason and has never got untracked.

Rivers you can say has regressed but id also say it is in big part because of the OL. He has been sacked 32 times, hurried probably a hundred times and knocked down who knows how many times. He is lucky he isnt hurt to be quite honest.
Gates has only 32 receptions to this point. The top three in receptions this season,.. two are RB's, Floyd is the top guy. Meachum and Royal have been pretty non existant.

When is the last time in years have you seen our offense struggle like it has? Its because of the awful OL. Yes Rivers has been making bad decisions and imo he is trying to hard to make plays whe he shouldnt be throwing some passes. He didnt do that yesterday and didnt have any INT's. Made good decisions but again, he was harrassed all day long.

boltaneer
11-26-2012, 11:04 PM
I've watch enough chargers games this year to see that...the team has plenty of talent. The defense is plenty solid, the running game is better than average...regardless of whether Mathews is in there or not, and they have good enough receivers to get the job done. Not to mention a HOF TE. Phillip Rivers has been absolutely pathetic. Some of the throws he's made are Tebowesk! How many picks has he thrown??? Looks like another 20+ int year...that's 2 in a row. Say what you want...but, he's regressed big time!

Of course he's regressed. No QB would be successful behind this line, especially a pocket passer like Rivers.

Look at how Vick has regressed this year. Not that he was ever that great but it looked like he was finally starting to see the light after arriving in Philly a couple of years ago. But their o-line woes started last year and has become atrocious this year. Turnovers are going to happen more frequently as the QB gets hurried, hit and sacked more.

Meachem is a bust. They miss Vincent Jackson. Gates is just not the same but he's still often getting double teamed and he's a complete non-factor now. They never found a replacement for Sproles. Injuries to Royal and Vincent Brown leave them with no slot receiver. Floyd is a nice player but he's a long-strider and Rivers doesn't have time to throw many deep balls this year. With the running game being non-existent, there's really nothing left for the offense though Alexander has really emerged these past couple of weeks. He may become Vincent Jackson-lite for them.

Norv Turner isn't doing Rivers any favors either by constantly calling his trademark slow developing seven-step drop plays. He stubbornly refuses to adapt his playcalling due to the circumstances.

It's just a perfect storm of injures, a crappy o-line, a terrible head coach/playcalling and a QB who feels the pressure of having to do more than he can.

Jetland
11-26-2012, 11:41 PM
Of course he's regressed. No QB would be successful behind this line, especially a pocket passer like Rivers.

Look at how Vick has regressed this year. Not that he was ever that great but it looked like he was finally starting to see the light after arriving in Philly a couple of years ago. But their o-line woes started last year and has become atrocious this year. Turnovers are going to happen more frequently as the QB gets hurried, hit and sacked more.

Meachem is a bust. They miss Vincent Jackson. Gates is just not the same but he's still often getting double teamed and he's a complete non-factor now. They never found a replacement for Sproles. Injuries to Royal and Vincent Brown leave them with no slot receiver. Floyd is a nice player but he's a long-strider and Rivers doesn't have time to throw many deep balls this year. With the running game being non-existent, there's really nothing left for the offense though Alexander has really emerged these past couple of weeks. He may become Vincent Jackson-lite for them.

Norv Turner isn't doing Rivers any favors either by constantly calling his trademark slow developing seven-step drop plays. He stubbornly refuses to adapt his playcalling due to the circumstances.

It's just a perfect storm of injures, a crappy o-line, a terrible head coach/playcalling and a QB who feels the pressure of having to do more than he can.

would love to sit down with Edward and see how all this is working out for him

eddie mac
11-27-2012, 12:20 AM
Has one team always been so dominant division wise in the AFC???

Denver - 4 game lead
Houston - 3 game lead
New England - 3 game lead
Baltimore - 3 game lead

Bacchus
11-27-2012, 12:44 AM
Has one team always been so dominant division wise in the AFC???

Denver - 4 game lead
Houston - 3 game lead
New England - 3 game lead
Baltimore - 3 game lead

The NFC isn't very close either.

Old Dude
11-27-2012, 05:28 AM
Chargers get the Fork, joining the Chiefs and Raiders:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000101552/article/stick-a-fork-in-them-2012-san-diego-chargers

Drek
11-27-2012, 08:30 AM
When is the last time in years have you seen our offense struggle like it has? Its because of the awful OL. Yes Rivers has been making bad decisions and imo he is trying to hard to make plays whe he shouldnt be throwing some passes. He didnt do that yesterday and didnt have any INT's. Made good decisions but again, he was harrassed all day long.

I'd agree that Rivers' problems have more to do with the OL, the receivers, lack of a running game, and inability to win field position battles on defense than with his own sudden inability to play football.

But you know what, the same could have been said for Marc Bulger not so long ago in his time with the Rams. He was a standout QB for a few years, then the greatest show on turf crew started to retire one by one and Bulger started taking a lot of hits. He never returned to what he used to be, even for the infrequent years when the Rams OL wasn't horrible and when Jackson was an elite RB.

What Chargers fans need to be concerned with isn't whether Rivers is the problem or not. You guys should be worried about how many years the beating Rivers has taken the last couple years has shaved off the prime of his career. He's almost 31 years old. Every statistical analysis pegs the athletic peak of most athletes as the years between 27-31. Rivers is on the wrong side of that now and has spent the last two years getting used and abused. I wouldn't be so quick to bet that simply improving the deficiencies around him will suddenly return him to his peak performances of old.

Best path forward for the Chargers if you ask me is to look for an elite feature back and get back to a commitment on defense. They aren't replacing Rivers any time soon but he's also probably not returning to perennial pro-bowl contender levels any time real soon either. Another person who can single handedly put up points is needed, and in today's NFL if you do that via the running game you need to supplement the slower rate of scoring v. passing offenses with a strong D.

boltaneer
11-27-2012, 09:01 AM
Yeah, Bulger crumbled because of injuries.

That hasn't happened to Rivers (yet). Same style of offense though. I hope whoever comes in, installs a new type of offense. The Coryell offense was innovative and great in the day but I think it's time to move on as the NFL changes.

Inkana7
11-27-2012, 09:08 AM
Can Rivers even physically play a different kind of offense? He always looks uncomfortable and retarded when throwing passes that aren't 15+ yards downfield and was always best when throwing it up to Jackson and Gates. I just don't see him succeeding in a non-Coryell offense.

Drek
11-27-2012, 09:57 AM
Yeah, Bulger crumbled because of injuries.

That hasn't happened to Rivers (yet). Same style of offense though. I hope whoever comes in, installs a new type of offense. The Coryell offense was innovative and great in the day but I think it's time to move on as the NFL changes.

Rivers hasn't missed games, it doesn't mean he isn't getting physically abused.

Bulger's problem wasn't the injuries taking away physical talent, it was all the hits and the collapsing pockets making him hear footsteps from all sides and play like who knows he's about to get hit all the time.

A lot like Rivers is currently playing, FYI.

That is a hard thing to unlearn once it's been (literally) beaten into you. Rivers hasn't taken the shellacking Bulger did in terms of both duration of inferior OL play and actual hits, but damage has clearly been done. He's talented enough to where his chances to bounce back are greater than most, but what will he bounce back to? What is the new ceiling for Rivers? He's getting older at the same time here, keep that in mind. 31 or 32 year old Phillip Rivers isn't going to be able to do quite the same things that 28 year old Phillip Rivers could.

You've got to protect aging QBs if you want them to age with any grace at all. The Chargers aren't doing that at all with Rivers. He could be leading the league in passing right now and the current level of protection he gets would still be an ominous sign of things to come.

CEH
11-27-2012, 10:08 AM
If I'm a new HC the first hire I make is to get the best Oline coach I can find

Boy the OLine play after starters go down is just putrid around the NFL

I'm not sure if Rivers is shot or just bad Oline play.

boltaneer
11-27-2012, 02:22 PM
As of three weeks ago, Rivers has been sacked 20 times and his average time per sack is 2.4 seconds, which is 2nd worst in the NFL only to Arizona. He's since been sacked 12 times since then. The six sacks from Baltimore this week came at 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.3, 2.3, and 4.6 seconds.

Terrible o-line combined with Norv's deep, slow developing plays = poor quarterback play. Like I said, no QB would be successful under these circumstances.

FearLanier
11-27-2012, 02:40 PM
As of three weeks ago, Rivers has been sacked 20 times and his average time per sack is 2.4 seconds, which is 2nd worst in the NFL only to Arizona. He's since been sacked 12 times since then. The six sacks from Baltimore this week came at 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.3, 2.3, and 4.6 seconds.

Terrible o-line combined with Norv's deep, slow developing plays = poor quarterback play. Like I said, no QB would be successful under these circumstances.

SD needs one of the OT's from A&M bad.

Bacchus
11-27-2012, 02:48 PM
As of three weeks ago, Rivers has been sacked 20 times and his average time per sack is 2.4 seconds, which is 2nd worst in the NFL only to Arizona. He's since been sacked 12 times since then. The six sacks from Baltimore this week came at 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.3, 2.3, and 4.6 seconds.

Terrible o-line combined with Norv's deep, slow developing plays = poor quarterback play. Like I said, no QB would be successful under these circumstances.

Good stats wehere did you find those at?

socalorado
11-27-2012, 02:51 PM
As of three weeks ago, Rivers has been sacked 20 times and his average time per sack is 2.4 seconds, which is 2nd worst in the NFL only to Arizona. He's since been sacked 12 times since then. The six sacks from Baltimore this week came at 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.3, 2.3, and 4.6 seconds.

Terrible o-line combined with Norv's deep, slow developing plays = poor quarterback play. Like I said, no QB would be successful under these circumstances.

http://0.media.sportspickle.cvcdn.com/32/27/68dfabcd3c2493964639dae89a021768-philip-rivers-face-concealed.jpg