Secession petitions filed in 20 states

[W*GS]

Idiots.

Secession petitions filed in 20 states (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/secission-petitions-filed-20-states-190210006.html)

The money quote:

Peter Morrison, treasurer of the Hardin County (Texas) Republican Party, wrote a post-election newsletter in which he urges the Lone Star State to leave the Union:"We must contest every single inch of ground and delay the baby-murdering, tax-raising socialists at every opportunity. But in due time, the maggots will have eaten every morsel of flesh off of the rotting corpse of the Republic, and therein lies our opportunity... Why should Vermont and Texas live under the same government? Let each go her own way in peace, sign a free trade agreement among the states and we can avoid this gut-wrenching spectacle every four years."

Good luck with that, dickhead.

[elsid13]

Guess we know who really honors the sacrifices of those that bleed for this country and those that are whining bitches.

[Meck77]

I'd be fine with texicans becoming part of mexico. Not sure what it is about those ****ers when they visit Colorado but they want everyone to know they are from Texas. Loud ass twangy bastards, wearing jeans and starter jackets on our slopes. WTF!?

[bpc]

Freedom is not paying more than others in taxes. That's a form of indentured servitude and is not acceptable.

[Fedaykin]

Freedom is not paying more than others in taxes. That's a form of indentured servitude and is not acceptable.

So you agree that me and you paying 40%+ in taxes while the upper 1% pay <15% is wrong?

[cutthemdown]

Fed is lying no way you are paying 40% to the feds.

[Fedaykin]

Fed is lying no way you are paying 40% to the feds.

Didn't say 40% to the feds. I said 40%.

about 18% income, 12-16% payroll (taking into account employer portion), 4% state income, 7% sales tax

18+12+4+7 = 41%
18+16+4+7 = 45%

The upper 1% don't have significant payroll, income or sales tax. They pay almost exclusively LTCG, which is 15%.

I know you want to remain willfully ignorant of the tax system, but after a while explaining this **** to you gets old.

[Rohirrim]

Stupid people do stupid things. I guess those folks in Mississippi don't realize that without the federal government propping them up, they would sink like a stone. I wholly approve of this motion in the case of Texas, however. Losing them would be no loss to the United States.

[cutthemdown]

Didn't say 40% to the feds. I said 40%.

about 18% income, 12-16% payroll (taking into account employer portion), 4% state income, 7% sales tax

18+12+4+7 = 41%
18+16+4+7 = 45%

The upper 1% don't have significant payroll, income or sales tax. They pay almost exclusively LTCG, which is 15%.

I know you want to remain willfully ignorant of the tax system, but after a while explaining this **** to you gets old.

BS rich people pay state income tax and sales tax also.

[Fedaykin]

BS rich people pay state income tax and sales tax also.

They don't pay ****ing income tax anywhere if they get their money from capitol gains, idjit.

As for sales tax, they pay a pittance because they spend nowhere near the same % of their income as regular folk do. Most people spend nearly 100% of their income each year (see the savings rate figures). This means they pay very close to the full sales tax rate.

The upper 1% don't spend anywhere near 100%, meaning they pay an equally tiny amount in taxes compared to their income.

Seriously. This is not a ****ing hard concept. Are you really this daft?

[Play2win]

Hope Florida Secedes... but wait til I GTFO first!!

[ScottXray]

Obviously these idjits also haven't taken a History class either.
The ability of any state to secede from the union was decided
by the civil war ( 1861-1865) and there is NO secession allowed,
by law.

Its kind of like the mafia...once you are in you are in for good.
Your kids are in, your grandkids, etc. No going back.

[houghtam]

Even if they could secede, they wouldn't last 30 seconds, even with "the 15th largest economy in the world".

Who subsidizes student loans for college students in Texas?

Who subsidizes the interstate system in Texas?

How many times has Texas filed for federal money due to natural disasters?

And the piece de resistance: What do you think is going to happen to all the citizens and businesses that are located there solely because of relaxed state tax laws?

I hope they secede, to be honest. That way all the rest of the idiots in the south and the GOP can actually see firsthand what the federal government does for them.

[Odysseus]

This is just a tragic replay of the civil war. The election state map shows that clearly.

[Arkie]

Obviously these idjits also haven't taken a History class either.
The ability of any state to secede from the union was decided
by the civil war ( 1861-1865) and there is NO secession allowed,
by law.


There's more to history classes than the civil war. I'm sure there was no secession allowed for the American colonies, by law. The same goes for Soviet states seceding from the Soviet Union.

[Arkie]

This is just a tragic replay of the civil war. The election state map shows that clearly.

Oregon, Michigan, Minnesota, and several other blue states have petitions too.

[houghtam]

Crazy people in Oregon, Michigan, Minnesota, and several other blue states have submitted petitions too.

FYP

[swaiy]

So I guess these states would be pretty vulnerable not being part of the US. You know, with no UNITED STATES MILITARY and all...

[lonestar]

Obviously these idjits also haven't taken a History class either.
The ability of any state to secede from the union was decided
by the civil war ( 1861-1865) and there is NO secession allowed,
by law.

Its kind of like the mafia...once you are in you are in for good.
Your kids are in, your grandkids, etc. No going back.

I think you are incorrect since Texas was a sovereign Nation before joining, it retains the right to..

In fact the the state flag in Texas IIRC fly's at the same height that Old Glory does.. unlike every other state whose flag fly's lower than it..

Just as a side note Texas' GDP is a good portion of the USA'..

To late to look it all up, but Texans are proud group of people pretty sure those comments made above are indeed facts....

Night night..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think you are incorrect since Texas was a sovereign Nation before joining, it retains the right to..

In fact the the state flag in Texas IIRC fly's at the same height that Old Glory does.. unlike every other state whose flag fly's lower than it..

Just as a side note Texas' GDP is a good portion of the USA'..

To late to look it all up, but Texans are proud group of people pretty sure those comments made above are indeed facts....

Night night..

Don't let the door hit ya... :wave:

[cutthemdown]

They don't pay ****ing income tax anywhere if they get their money from capitol gains, idjit.

As for sales tax, they pay a pittance because they spend nowhere near the same % of their income as regular folk do. Most people spend nearly 100% of their income each year (see the savings rate figures). This means they pay very close to the full sales tax rate.

The upper 1% don't spend anywhere near 100%, meaning they pay an equally tiny amount in taxes compared to their income.

Seriously. This is not a ****ing hard concept. Are you really this daft?

Capital gains are less because investments don't always make money. They are risky. Take my brother in law for example. He is a software engineer and now works for a company making good money. Wasn't always so though. He tried to strike it big working for a start up back in the early 90's. He worked for only 60 grand a yr but got a ton of stock options. Had the company done well he would have made a ton of money. Unfortunately it didn't work out and in the end the stock was worthless.

That is why capital gains is lower, it encourages people to go for it, to try and make a splash in the world.

You ask me why don't i understand. Let me ask you do you understand that investements are risky and don't always make money?

Now if someone can show me how we can stop a CEO from accepting his pay in stock that is already super valuable, then maybe I could go along with it. I do agree a very small % of CEO in the right position are skirting paying their fair share by taking stock options in low risk, or no risk situations and paying less % then they probably should be. But that is a low % of the overall captial gains taxes going on in the country.

[cutthemdown]

Capital gains is a touchy one to screw with because you don't want to make investors say maybe building that shopping center not worth it right now etc etc.

it should only be raised ever so slightly if at all IMO.

[Rohirrim]

Bunch of ****ing traitors. Get the **** out.

[Smiling Assassin27]

It's all posturing. But interestingly, I don't recall you or anyone else starting a thread or ridiculing the idea when counties filed for secession when W was in office. Was it 'legitimate dissent' back then and utterly retarded now?

Secession is foolish. Nullification is where it's at.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's all posturing. But interestingly, I don't recall you or anyone else starting a thread or ridiculing the idea when counties filed for secession when W was in office. Was it 'legitimate dissent' back then and utterly retarded now?

Secession is foolish. Nullification is where it's at.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534661_558823897476459_1447736369_n.jpg

[DenverBrit]

BS rich people pay state income tax and sales tax also.

Is that a CA thing?

Investors.....who make up the majority of the 1%, don't pay a dime.

Those tax rates are 15% or less.......and you'll have difficulty finding the 'job creators' amongst them, despite the disinformation to the contrary.

[Rohirrim]

It's all posturing. But interestingly, I don't recall you or anyone else starting a thread or ridiculing the idea when counties filed for secession when W was in office. Was it 'legitimate dissent' back then and utterly retarded now?

Secession is foolish. Nullification is where it's at.

Nullification is just as unconstitutional, stupid and treasonous as secession.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

Isn't desiring secession, like, treason and stuff?

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/please-assist-all-secessionists-moving-somewhere-texas-then-let-them-secede-rest-us-are-tired/jH9dr3y4#thank-you=p

[Rohirrim]

Isn't desiring secession, like, treason and stuff?

It would be nice to see the Justice Department prosecute a couple of these low-lifes, just for entertainment purposes. ;D

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

ok im all for it colorado is now manningstan all non bronco fans gtfo NOW !!!

[Pony Boy]

They don't pay ****ing income tax anywhere if they get their money from capitol gains, idjit.

As for sales tax, they pay a pittance because they spend nowhere near the same % of their income as regular folk do. Most people spend nearly 100% of their income each year (see the savings rate figures). This means they pay very close to the full sales tax rate.

The upper 1% don't spend anywhere near 100%, meaning they pay an equally tiny amount in taxes compared to their income.

Seriously. This is not a ****ing hard concept. Are you really this daft?

31761

[Fedaykin]

31761

Income tax is only applied to taxable wages, not capital gains.

Of course, whatever miniscule (in comparison to the capgains) amount of taxable wages they have they'll pay income tax on, but not the capgains.

This is why, for example, Steve Jobs took $1 salary a year. So he could completely avoid income tax. Most aren't that extreme, but the vast bulk of the upper 15 earnings is in capgains.

[Arkie]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-withdraw-district-colombia-union-allow-several-states-live-peace-and-prosperity/WRxrCmkD

Peacefully withdraw the District of Colombia from the Union to allow the Several States to live in Peace and Prosperity.

LOL

[El Guapo]

I'd be fine with texicans becoming part of mexico. Not sure what it is about those ****ers when they visit Colorado but they want everyone to know they are from Texas. Loud ass twangy bastards, wearing jeans and starter jackets on our slopes. WTF!?

I hate you too. :welcome:

[cutthemdown]

Answer this. Should capital gains tax be less then income tax?

Remember the house you sell for a profit could have went down in value. The stock could have crashed. The business you didn't build could have went under. So when these people make money remember they could have lost money.

So should capital gains be raised? Maybe a smart move would be to target just the CEO's taking stock options instead of pay, for companies whose stock is already worth a lot of money. IMO start ups are different. You people realize sometimes a software engineer, etc will work for next to nothing hoping the stock option he is paid in become worth millions. But it doesn't always work out.

So many varibles to different investments and dollars that come through capital gains. it will take a sharp knife making minute adjustments to it, or you risk really screwing some Americans who didn't deserve it.

The CEO's you liberals are pissed at make up a very small % of people who pay capital gains. Even guys who may go a few yrs with little income working on a big project. Then when payoff comes they make millions. Still though they deserve a lower rate. That **** is risky.

The landscape littered with investors who lost it all. it's a joke that people think capital gains should go up. 15% is plenty high.

[El Guapo]

Isn't desiring secession, like, treason and stuff?

No.

Texas was the Republic of Texas before becoming a part of the Union. I'm sure the colonies were not allowed to split off from the British Empire either. I don't think it'll happen, but maybe (just maybe) the talk of it occuring will be a nice little motivational slap to ALL politicians to let them know that things are not right with this country.

[ScottXray]

No.

Texas was the Republic of Texas before becoming a part of the Union. I'm sure the colonies were not allowed to split off from the British Empire either. I don't think it'll happen, but maybe (just maybe) the talk of it occuring will be a nice little motivational slap to ALL politicians to let them know that things are not right with this country.

The colonies splitting off was considered REBELLION and treason.

Also, the states that seceded were called Rebels. As to whether there is any legal ground to secede, the SCOTUS ruled that secession is not legal after the civil war ended, but that was a political expediency. I don't know if the full population of a state voting to secede in a timed staged sequence could be considered to meet the States and US constitution, since almost all state constitutions reserve the right to thorw off any form of government when it does not meet the test of protecting and serving the people. And there is no direct mention of secession in any part of the US constitution.

I know that the state legislature of any state voting to secede without a general election would be frowned on by the US government, as rebellion.

And in checking, Texas does not have any clause or statement reserving the right to secede in it's constitution. It does have a clause that it can divide itself into 5 separate states. ( this was due to the free state -slave state problem when it was annexed, and the fact that part of Texas is north of the Mason Dixon line)

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

No.

Texas was the Republic of Texas before becoming a part of the Union. I'm sure the colonies were not allowed to split off from the British Empire either. I don't think it'll happen, but maybe (just maybe) the talk of it occuring will be a nice little motivational slap to ALL politicians to let them know that things are not right with this country.

Or (more likely) politicians will see that a bunch of whiny idiots talking about secession does not a crisis make, and we'll all have a good hearty laugh at their expense.

[Rohirrim]

The traitors also betrayed the United States simply in order to keep black people in chains. Sherman should have burned South Carolina to ash and then salted the Earth so it would still be a scorched reminder as the birthplace of treason. Instead, we rebuilt the land of the traitors, and how do they repay us? By trying to destroy our government.

[chadta]

So I guess these states would be pretty vulnerable not being part of the US. You know, with no UNITED STATES MILITARY and all...


Yeah, us Canadians have been eying Michigan, and Minnesota, we are gonna hold out until Alaska files its papers tho before we send the troops out to build our land mass.

[DenverBrit]

Answer this. Should capital gains tax be less then income tax?

Remember the house you sell for a profit could have went down in value. The stock could have crashed. The business you didn't build could have went under. So when these people make money remember they could have lost money.

So should capital gains be raised? Maybe a smart move would be to target just the CEO's taking stock options instead of pay, for companies whose stock is already worth a lot of money. IMO start ups are different. You people realize sometimes a software engineer, etc will work for next to nothing hoping the stock option he is paid in become worth millions. But it doesn't always work out.

So many varibles to different investments and dollars that come through capital gains. it will take a sharp knife making minute adjustments to it, or you risk really screwing some Americans who didn't deserve it.

The CEO's you liberals are pissed at make up a very small % of people who pay capital gains. Even guys who may go a few yrs with little income working on a big project. Then when payoff comes they make millions. Still though they deserve a lower rate. That **** is risky.

The landscape littered with investors who lost it all. it's a joke that people think capital gains should go up. 15% is plenty high.

I think you overstate the risk and understate who benefits from CG. You can count all of the top earners and anyone who has a 401k amongst that group.

The top earners pay even less than 15% if they are invested correctly.....and make use of offshore tax havens/schemes.

As for risk, it's only a problem when you sell prematurely. During the crash, millions dumped stocks in a panic, the 'investors' stood pat and bought on the uptick.

It's a pattern that repeats itself frequently, only this time, the losses were great for those who sold, and the profits huge for those who bought.

The rich got much richer. It's time they paid their share of the burden that fell on the rest of the country, instead of moving billions offshore to avoid paying taxes.

[Smiling Assassin27]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdgdl4HUR31rkc4gco1_500.jpg

[Requiem]

http://www.imageleech.net/data/media/1/well_bye_2.jpg

[Odysseus]

The traitors also betrayed the United States simply in order to keep black people in chains. Sherman should have burned South Carolina to ash and then salted the Earth so it would still be a scorched reminder as the birthplace of treason. Instead, we rebuilt the land of the traitors, and how do they repay us? By trying to destroy our government.

Let's see....bloodiest war on American soil in American history or use a cotton gin....hmmm.

Industrial age would have happened with or without the Civil war. I cannot think of anything good that came from that conflict.

Mao Tse Tung (Chinese legendary leader) rightfully called WWI and WWII as Europe's civil war. Interesting perspective to be sure.

America will probably dissolve within the next 100 years. It is unfortunate but even the best of empire collapses.

[Odysseus]

Yeah, us Canadians have been eying Michigan, and Minnesota, we are gonna hold out until Alaska files its papers tho before we send the troops out to build our land mass.

If we gave you Michigan and Minnesota you would probably give them right back. It would probably wreck your economy! HA!

[houghtam]

Answer this. Should capital gains tax be less then income tax?

Remember the house you sell for a profit could have went down in value. The stock could have crashed. The business you didn't build could have went under. So when these people make money remember they could have lost money.

So should capital gains be raised? Maybe a smart move would be to target just the CEO's taking stock options instead of pay, for companies whose stock is already worth a lot of money. IMO start ups are different. You people realize sometimes a software engineer, etc will work for next to nothing hoping the stock option he is paid in become worth millions. But it doesn't always work out.

So many varibles to different investments and dollars that come through capital gains. it will take a sharp knife making minute adjustments to it, or you risk really screwing some Americans who didn't deserve it.

The CEO's you liberals are pissed at make up a very small % of people who pay capital gains. Even guys who may go a few yrs with little income working on a big project. Then when payoff comes they make millions. Still though they deserve a lower rate. That **** is risky.

The landscape littered with investors who lost it all. it's a joke that people think capital gains should go up. 15% is plenty high.

Absolutely capital gains should be taxed at a higher rate. Incidentally, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities shows that, according to your statements, you don't really know much about capital gains.



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3798



10 Things You Need to Know About Capital Gains



1. Capital gains tax rates are the lowest since the Great Depression.

2. There’s no evidence that low capital gains tax rates boost the stock market, investment, or the economy. The Congressional Research Service (CRS) found no statistically significant correlation between the top capital gains or marginal income tax rates since 1945 and: (1) private saving; (2) investment; (3) growth in labor productivity; or (4) growth in real per capita GDP.

3. A large share of capital gains is never subject to capital gains tax. Unrealized capital gains (i.e., capital gains that have not been “cashed in”) make up an estimated 36 percent of the value of all estates and 56 percent of the value of estates worth more than $10 million. Moreover, estates worth less than $5 million per person ($10 million per couple) are exempt from the estate tax, so their unrealized capital gains will face neither capital gains tax nor estate tax.

4. Capital gains are highly concentrated at the top. The top 20% of households receive 94% of all capital gains.

5. The benefits of preferential tax rates for capital gains and dividends go overwhelmingly to the highest-income taxpayers.
TPC estimates that, in 2011, the preferential rates raised after-tax incomes by 7.5 percent (an average of $356,750) among the top 0.1 percent of taxpayers but by just 0.1 percent (an average of $23) among the middle fifth of households.

6. The 2003 cut in the capital gains rate cut was highly regressive. The 2005 cut from 20%-15% alone raised after-tax incomes by 2.2 percent (about $75,800 on average) among the top 0.1 percent of filers but by just 0.03 percent (about $10) among the middle 20 percent of filers.

7. The capital gains tax preference is a major reason why the tax code violates the Buffett rule. households with incomes between $50,000 and $75,000 who receive most of their income from their paychecks (as middle-class people generally do) paid 14.9 percent of their income in federal income and payroll taxes in 2011, according to TPC. Millionaires who received more than a third of their income from capital gains and qualified dividends faced a 14.6 percent effective tax rate, and millionaires who derived more than two-thirds of their income from these sources faced a 12.0 percent rate.

8. Tax preferences for capital gains are inequitable.
Two families who have the same amount of income and are otherwise similar in their expenses and family situations may end up paying vastly different amounts of tax depending on whether they generate most of their income from wages and salaries or from tax-preferred investments.

9. Tax preferences for capital gains are costly.
Letting the capital gains rate return in 2013 to 20 percent for couples with adjusted gross incomes over $250,000 ($200,000 for single filers), as the Administration has proposed, would save about $36 billion over ten years. That’s more than the projected budget for the Food and Drug Administration over the same ten years.

10. Raising Capital Gains and Dividend Rates Would Have Little or No Impact on Most Elderly Households Nearly all elderly households (96 percent) had incomes below $200,000 in 2011. The Administration’s proposal to allow the capital gains rate to rise modestly for upper-income households wouldn’t affect these households at all.

[Arkie]

The traitors also betrayed the United States simply in order to keep black people in chains. Sherman should have burned South Carolina to ash and then salted the Earth so it would still be a scorched reminder as the birthplace of treason. Instead, we rebuilt the land of the traitors, and how do they repay us? By trying to destroy our government.

That's a nice blanket statement that covers all of space and time to make people feel guilty for not accepting the uni-party we've had for the last 30 years. If the federal government is not working for the people, then secession is the last peaceful action the people can take.

[Odysseus]

Question: How do you petition AGAINST that?

[Arkie]

Question: How do you petition AGAINST that?

I found this one. There may be more.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/keep-united-states-united/ZfpkwtSZ

[Odysseus]

I found this one. There may be more.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/keep-united-states-united/ZfpkwtSZ

I guess this means i have to come off witness relocation. :)

[Odysseus]

There are some pretty messed up petitions being entertained there. I do, however think this one is appropriate.

Force all states to pay their portion of the national debt before they can secede from the union

Residents of all states who wish to secede from the union should be required to take their own advice about 'personal responsibility', and pay their share of the national debt before being released to fend for themselves.

This debt must be paid in full, or they cannot leave.

This means no federal assistance, period.

Abridged list includes no more upkeep for highways, nor for interstates or bridges, no federally funded law enforcement or fire department, no public libraries, no phone lines, no cable television, no cell phone towers, no power grids, no water lines, no mail services, no paramedics, no hospitals which accept Medicare/Medicaid funding, no ATF, FBI, DOJ, SWAT, or Department of Homeland Security, no Border Guard, National Guard, Coast Guard, Corps of Engineers, or WITSEC.

[Rohirrim]

That's a nice blanket statement that covers all of space and time to make people feel guilty for not accepting the uni-party we've had for the last 30 years. If the federal government is not working for the people, then secession is the last peaceful action the people can take.

The Constitution allows for all sorts of ways for the people to change the government: Changing representatives, writing simple bills, laws, impeachment, amendments to the Constitution, a constitutional convention, challenges in the courts, etc. What it doesn't allow is secession. That's treason; Usually the last resort of cowards who realize that they believe in whacked political theories that have no chance of gaining popular political support.

[Rohirrim]

Let's see....bloodiest war on American soil in American history or use a cotton gin....hmmm.

Industrial age would have happened with or without the Civil war. I cannot think of anything good that came from that conflict.

Mao Tse Tung (Chinese legendary leader) rightfully called WWI and WWII as Europe's civil war. Interesting perspective to be sure.

America will probably dissolve within the next 100 years. It is unfortunate but even the best of empire collapses.

Actually, it wasn't an either/or. The cotton gin was the primary technological factor making the Civil War almost inevitable; The South had to have more slaves to feed the gins in order to make lots more money. Their whole economy ended up based on that. As far as what came from the Civil War? The basic set of tactics that led to the monumental butchery of WWI.

[Odysseus]

Actually, it wasn't an either/or. The cotton gin was the primary technological factor making the Civil War almost inevitable; The South had to have more slaves to feed the gins in order to make lots more money. Their whole economy ended up based on that. As far as what came from the Civil War? The basic set of tactics that led to the monumental butchery of WWI.

I don't think the cotton gin was as important to the inevitability as was the politics surrounding it but nonetheless I concede this point.

I would not call trench warfare much of a discovery. The Irish brigade was decimated that day in the Wilderness.

JP Morgan made his fortune selling surplus (broken) weapons to the Union. Henry rifle was proven effective. Quite a bit of the firearms basics like rifling and cartridge design came from necessity of war. War only breeds war.

Right now we have a generation of men deployed three to five times who know nothing about peace.

[Fedaykin]

Absolutely capital gains should be taxed at a higher rate. Incidentally, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities shows that, according to your statements, you don't really know much about capital gains.



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3798



10 Things You Need to Know About Capital Gains



An addition:

For the bulk of the middle class who do benefit from capital gains, they never get the benefits of the 15% LTCG tax. Why? Because the bulk of the capital gains for the middle class come from two sources:

1.) Real Estate
2.) Retirement plans.

Most people's retirement plans (401s, 403s and IRA), which are every bit as risky as any other type of stock investments are not taxed as LTCG, they are taxed as regular income. Not just the portion of the investment that was untaxed originally, but the entire amount.

Real Estate, in most places, is also a big gamble (as many found out in 2008), and while gains in real estate are taxed as capital gains, real estate is also subject to property taxes and other taxes which add to the tax burden. Let's not forget interest on mortgages, which seriously erodes any actual gains.

[Fedaykin]

There are some pretty messed up petitions being entertained there. I do, however think this one is appropriate.

Force all states to pay their portion of the national debt before they can secede from the union

Residents of all states who wish to secede from the union should be required to take their own advice about 'personal responsibility', and pay their share of the national debt before being released to fend for themselves.

This debt must be paid in full, or they cannot leave.

This means no federal assistance, period.

Abridged list includes no more upkeep for highways, nor for interstates or bridges, no federally funded law enforcement or fire department, no public libraries, no phone lines, no cable television, no cell phone towers, no power grids, no water lines, no mail services, no paramedics, no hospitals which accept Medicare/Medicaid funding, no ATF, FBI, DOJ, SWAT, or Department of Homeland Security, no Border Guard, National Guard, Coast Guard, Corps of Engineers, or WITSEC.

The bulk of the red states are screwed, their fair share is almost all of it, given the disparity in revenues and outlays to those states.

Except for a couple of the more populous red states (in the south) red states rely 100% on the federal government to continue to function -- which is simply a result of large monetary requirements coupled with small populations.

All those "independent, pull yourself up by your own bootstrapts folks in Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, etc. all rely on the charity of the rest of the nation to maintain their lifestyle. Yet the blue states (and to be fair a couple of the more populous red states) bleeding money to help them out are called the leeches.

[Requiem]

ND and SD govern themselves quite well. What charity are they receiving to maintain their lifestyle? I don't see how you can group the Dakota's in with Alaska, Idaho, Wyoming, etc.

[Fedaykin]

ND and SD govern themselves quite well. What charity are they receiving to maintain their lifestyle? I don't see how you can group the Dakota's in with Alaska, Idaho, Wyoming, etc.

The Dakotas receive a large subsidy (taxes) from the Federal government to continue operating.

According to Wiki, both have a net drain on tax monies of ~4500/person. They spend about 2x as much as they have internal revenue. Doesn't mean the people are -bad- just means they don't have enough internal revenue to maintain their state. It sucks, but its inevitable when you have huge states with small populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state

[Requiem]

The Dakotas receive a large subsidy (taxes) from the Federal government to continue operating.

According to Wiki, both have a net drain on tax monies of ~4500/person. They spend about 2x as much as they have internal revenue. Doesn't mean the people are -bad- just means they don't have enough internal revenue to maintain their state. It sucks, but its inevitable when you have huge states with small populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state

And I'm guessing the subsidies are largely due in part to what the state produces in the realm of agriculture.

[Fedaykin]

And I'm guessing the subsidies are largely due in part to what the state produces in the realm of agriculture.

It's mostly in things like highway funds, unemployment, education, etc. (including no doubt some agri-subs).

[Requiem]

Do funds towards the Reservations go towards that allocation? Quite possibly. I bet that skews the numbers quite a bit.

They are always doing work on the highways here.

Unemployment rate is very low ~ 4.5 % (in my town it's barely over three) so I doubt much money gets pumped into here for that.

Interesting link though, I'd just disagree with the assessment that our state successes are by in large thanks to other states who raise more revenue. The legislatures here at the state level in the Dakota's do a remarkable job with the hand they have been dealt.

[Spider]

**** em they signed the petition nothing short of treason ...strip of their rights

[Meck77]

All this talk of treason. Bailout out of crooks isn't treason? Remember when Obama said he was going to get tough on banks? Just go try and get a loan. Now you are about to handed the tax bill. *shrug* I guess it's what you wanted.

[razorwire77]

Secession will never happen in our lifetimes, but it would be hilarious to have a Mississippi or an Alabama actually go through with it and watch the mass exodus of people out of Bamaland and back to a U.S. backed state after 6 months or so when they realized just how badly it sucked ass.

[Odysseus]

The bulk of the red states are screwed, their fair share is almost all of it, given the disparity in revenues and outlays to those states.

Except for a couple of the more populous red states (in the south) red states rely 100% on the federal government to continue to function -- which is simply a result of large monetary requirements coupled with small populations.

All those "independent, pull yourself up by your own bootstrapts folks in Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, etc. all rely on the charity of the rest of the nation to maintain their lifestyle. Yet the blue states (and to be fair a couple of the more populous red states) bleeding money to help them out are called the leeches.

I guess from an Ayn Rand point of view we should get rid of those useless states and create strict immigration laws so when their citizens want to trade with us or relocate inside our borders we can recover from their gross mishandling of our resources and fiduciary ability.

Everyone that hates the bankers will rue that day. Bailout is such an ugly word. They are crooks when they take OUR money but when they defend us we call them father's of liberty, patriots, and good Christian men. Strange world we abide in.

Indian Reservations would laugh. They are already sovereign. I might move up to the reservation and make money on trading with the different states. What an interesting place that will be.

It is a sad day when even the definition of treason is unclear.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Confederacy of Takers

By Dana Milbank (http://www.washingtonpost.com/dana-milbank/2011/02/24/ABhhJwI_page.html)

Published: November 13

President Obama’s opponents have unwittingly come up with a brilliant plan to avoid the “fiscal cliff (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-fiscal-cliff-showdown/9deb554e-2515-11e2-9313-3c7f59038d93_topic.html).” They want to secede from the union (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/11/12/states-petition-obama-administration-to-secede/).

If Obama were serious about being a good steward of the nation’s finances, he’d let them.

The White House, in one of those astro-turf efforts that make people feel warm about small-d democracy, launched a “We the People” program (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/) on its Web site last year (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/09/20/president-obama-open-government-essence-democracy), allowing Americans to petition their government for a redress of grievances. Any petition that receives 25,000 or more signatures within 30 days is promised a response (though not necessarily a favorable one) from the Obama administration.

And so a large number of patriotic Americans, mostly from states won by Mitt Romney (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/election-map-2012/president/) last week, have petitioned the White House to let them secede. They should be careful about what they wish for. It would be excellent financial news for those of us left behind if Obama were to grant a number of the rebel states their wish “to withdraw from the United States and create [their] own NEW government” (the petitions emphasize “new” by capitalizing it).

Red states receive, on average, far more from the federal government in expenditures than they pay in taxes. The balance is the opposite in blue states. The secession petitions, therefore, give the opportunity to create what would be, in a fiscal sense, a far more perfect union.

Among those states with large numbers of petitioners asking out: Louisiana (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-louisiana-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/1wrvtngl) (more than 28,000 signatures at midday Tuesday), which gets about $1.45 in federal largess for every $1 it pays in taxes; Alabama (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-alabama-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/2TvhJSSC) (more than 20,000 signatures), which takes $1.71 for every $1 it puts in; South Carolina (26,000), which takes $1.38 for its dollar; and Missouri (22,000), which takes $1.29 for its dollar.

Since the effort gained attention this week, copycats in all but a few states have joined the petition drive. To be fair, White House officials could refuse the secession petitions of states Obama won, such as New York (which gets only 79 cents on its tax dollar), Michigan (85 cents) and Colorado (79 cents).

What would be left is a Confederacy of Takers, including relatively poor states such as Alaska, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Mississippi. One of the few would-be Confederacy members that pays more than it receives is Texas, which because of oil money is roughly break-even at 94 cents of benefits for its tax dollar. (The statistics, from an analysis of tax and revenue data by the nonpartisan Tax Foundation (http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/sr139.pdf), were published in 2006, but the broad pattern doesn’t vary much over time.)

Depending on how aggressive a fiscal hawk he wishes to be, Obama could also try to offload onto the Confederacy of the Takers North and South Dakota and Montana ($1.73, $1.49 and $1.58 in benefits, respectively), but this would probably only work if Canada agreed to allow overflight rights for American aircraft to reach the West Coast states of Washington, Oregon and California (88 cents, 97 cents and 79 cents on their tax dollars, respectively).

Possibly, the new United States would need to negotiate certain protectorates in the Confederacy — Austin, New Orleans, South Florida and the like — the way the British did in Hong Kong. Then there is the awkward matter of what the breakaway nation would do to its poor.

But once the handout states left the union (and took with them a proportionate share of the federal debt), the rest of the country could enjoy lower taxes and the high level of government service typical of the Northeast, the Great Lakes and the West Coast.

There would also be non-financial benefits. Tampa’s Central Command (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/scandal-probe-ensnares-commander-of-us-nato-troops-in-afghanistan/2012/11/13/a2a27232-2d7d-11e2-a99d-5c4203af7b7a_story.html), now caught up in the David Petraeus sex scandal (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/petraeus-told-biographer-to-stop-harassing-family-friend-officials-say/2012/11/12/6ccb325c-2d00-11e2-a99d-5c4203af7b7a_story.html), would be the new nation’s problem. And the exit of several Southern representatives from Congress would give Democrats a solid governing majority.

Of course, secession isn’t as easy or as painless as an electronic petition, and Obama couldn’t offer a redress of these petitioners’ grievances even if he wanted to. Nor should he want to: The Union of the Makers would be fiscally healthy but spiritually poor without the Confederacy of the Takers.
Yet would-be rebels from the red states should keep in mind during the coming budget battle that those who are most ardent about cutting government spending tend to come from parts of the country that most rely on it.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

once again it isnt states its unverified people on the net signing it i could pretend to be from new york and sign it.
its just a way for the government to get ahold of your name and probably laugh at you for being such a fool.
then maybe a irs audit down the road or some other gov harassment . you never know.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

but im gonna do a peter griffith and proclaim my self the great country of dantopia whos with me or colorado can be its own country and call it elwaystan or mannington
and kick out all non BRONCO FANS

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/559253_494948223860381_413145759_n.jpg

[Arkie]

Red states receive, on average, far more from the federal government in expenditures than they pay in taxes. The balance is the opposite in blue states.

This exemplifies welfare dependency making poverty worse. It would be doing the red states a favor to cut back on federal handouts.

[Arkie]

The traitors also betrayed the United States simply in order to keep black people in chains. Sherman should have burned South Carolina to ash and then salted the Earth so it would still be a scorched reminder as the birthplace of treason. Instead, we rebuilt the land of the traitors, and how do they repay us? By trying to destroy our government.

Despite the stereotyping, South Carolina has yet to reach the 25,000 signatures needed. They're just barely ahead of Colorado.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/why-E28098anti-obama-states-secede21E28099-story-lie/

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

its a lie no state is leaving no place individuals cannot succeed from the usa you can renounce your citizen ship and leave go to another country but this is not family guy you cannot form your own individual country.
its not anything official. you are a idiot if do not go read the stuff on that link you morons

[Bronco Bob]

Freedom is not paying more than others in taxes. That's a form of indentured servitude and is not acceptable.

Freedom isn't free: Stop whining and pay your taxes.

[Arkie]

Freedom isn't free: Stop whining and pay your taxes.

Freedom is getting more expensive every year. It's 142k per taxpayer this year compared to "only" 50k 10 years ago. No doubt financial freedom has declined, but there hasn't been a equal trade-off. Personal freedom has declined as well.