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ZONA
11-11-2012, 12:05 PM
For real dude, 9 seconds left in half. 4th and 1. The other team is NOT going to do anything if you don't get it. You give yourself a chance at a shorter FG.

I know he conservative but this to me is conservative to the point where you hurt your team.

Fox - grow a ****in pair already.

Broncos4tw
11-11-2012, 12:23 PM
Eh? Smart play. Newton has a cannon for an arm. At the 50, he has a chance to get it into the endzone. A kick guarantees he doesn't. We had the lead and the kick at the half. Smart call imo.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-11-2012, 12:25 PM
Up by 10 on the road and getting the ball to start the half. Nothing wrong with that decision.

Kid A
11-11-2012, 12:26 PM
I thought it was probably smart play there, Thomas hurt, not much momentum.

Not going on 4th and 1 (or challenging a terrible spot) with a chance to seal the game on the previous drive was much more frustrating.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2012, 12:36 PM
Yeah take a sack or a bunch of other bad things could happen vs the long shot of a fg in a game you are dominating. Smart play call by Fox especially in a game Denver has control in.

doonwise
11-11-2012, 01:17 PM
For real dude, 9 seconds left in half. 4th and 1. The other team is NOT going to do anything if you don't get it. You give yourself a chance at a shorter FG.

I know he conservative but this to me is conservative to the point where you hurt your team.

Fox - grow a ****in pair already.

Overreact much?? I hardly think the head coach deserves to be called a pu**y for punting after his kicker just missed an easier kick. Dial it down, friend.

Wes Mantooth
11-11-2012, 01:21 PM
For real dude, 9 seconds left in half. 4th and 1. The other team is NOT going to do anything if you don't get it. You give yourself a chance at a shorter FG.

I know he conservative but this to me is conservative to the point where you hurt your team.

Fox - grow a ****in pair already.

if I were your doctor, I would prescribe less madden

Goobzilla
11-11-2012, 01:23 PM
I thought it was probably smart play there, Thomas hurt, not much momentum.

Not going on 4th and 1 (or challenging a terrible spot) with a chance to seal the game on the previous drive was much more frustrating.

Still baffled he didn't challenge that spot.

Vine
11-11-2012, 01:24 PM
It's only a matter of time when Fox's dumbass coaching will actually cost the Broncos a game.

Rock Chalk
11-11-2012, 01:26 PM
Dumbest.Thread.Ever.

R8R H8R
11-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Still baffled he didn't challenge that spot.

I didn't think Hilman made it anyway. It probably would have been a closer 4th & 1, but if Fox was just going to kick it anyway, then it didn't matter.

Rock Chalk
11-11-2012, 01:31 PM
Still baffled he didn't challenge that spot.

Challenging the spot loses a timeout and a challenge. The replay showed that while he MAY have had forward progress for the First down, odds are much greater that he would have been a little short. While they would have moved the ball, we still would have lost the challenge.

doonwise
11-11-2012, 01:32 PM
It's only a matter of time when Fox's dumbass coaching will actually cost the Broncos a game.

You can say this about any coach in the NFL.

Vine
11-11-2012, 01:36 PM
I didn't think Hilman made it anyway. It probably would have been a closer 4th & 1, but if Fox was just going to kick it anyway, then it didn't matter.

The way I understand replay rules, if replay doesn't result in an adjusted spot that results in a first down, then the team loses a challenge. But there was a very good angle that looked like Hilman stretched the ball REALLY close to the 1st down line that should have at least resulted in a measurement. But if the measurement shows the ball to be inches short, Denver loses the challenge and a timeout, but is in much better position to go for it on 4th down.

Vine
11-11-2012, 01:39 PM
You can say this about any coach in the NFL.

Fox is different though. I don't agree with his conservativeness when it comes to 2 minute situations and punt/fg/go for it decisions. He has been known to not challenge plays that have showed to be situations where a challenge might be beneficial.

Kaylore
11-11-2012, 01:41 PM
Dumbest.Thread.Ever.

This. The coach who rebuilt this team into what it is wins back to back road games, this one going away, and people are starting threads calling him a dumb ass and pussy.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2012, 01:43 PM
Fox is different though. I don't agree with his conservativeness when it comes to 2 minute situations and punt/fg/go for it decisions. He has been known to not challenge plays that have showed to be situations where a challenge might be beneficial.

How about his team that has scored 10 TD's other than offense in the past 2 years? His coaching has been great and we have shown to get back into games we were down big in. Funny how you think you can call a better game than him.

doonwise
11-11-2012, 01:44 PM
This. The coach who rebuilt this team into what it is wins back to back road games, this one going away, and people are starting threads calling him a dumb ass and p***Y.

AND after one of the most complete games I've ever seen the broncos play. Perfection doesn't exist in football and from a team perspective, it doesn't get much better than today's performance.

USMCBladerunner
11-11-2012, 01:44 PM
I'm not as emotional about that call as you are, but I had the same reasoning as you...I would have gone for it, under the reasoning that Carolina would have had less than 5 seconds to do anything with it...

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2012, 01:56 PM
I'm not as emotional about that call as you are, but I had the same reasoning as you...I would have gone for it, under the reasoning that Carolina would have had less than 5 seconds to do anything with it...

Pick 6, fumble recovery for td, sack and they get long fg try, hail mary td for newton, pi on hail mary vs possible long fg for Denver. Too much risk vs what you could get out of going for it.

Drunk Monkey
11-11-2012, 01:59 PM
WTF is wrong with you people. I come in here and you would have thought we lost. Jesus, great win. ZONA, you sir are a $#@%$@#%@#$%. Re watch the game and that last 1st half sequence and get back to me.

canadianbroncosfan
11-11-2012, 02:05 PM
This thread needs to go to the thread grave yard.

All hail J. Fox!!!

LRtagger
11-11-2012, 02:40 PM
Challenging the spot loses a timeout and a challenge. The replay showed that while he MAY have had forward progress for the First down, odds are much greater that he would have been a little short. While they would have moved the ball, we still would have lost the challenge.

No if they had changed the spot of the ball that means we would have won te challenge - whether it resulted in a first down or not.

USMCBladerunner
11-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Pick 6, fumble recovery for td, sack and they get long fg try, hail mary td for newton, pi on hail mary vs possible long fg for Denver. Too much risk vs what you could get out of going for it.

If Tebow is your QB, then you punt, but he's not, Manning is...the percentages are not the same as they were (see Bill Belichick)...I like the odds of good vs bad things going for it in that situation...

I'm not emotional about this, I understand why the Broncos punted, but all things considered, I would have gone for it...I'm glad to know it didn't matter one way or another...

Agamemnon
11-11-2012, 02:46 PM
What I really didn't understand was him not challenging a spot that was clearly a full yard short of where it should've been. You challenge, and if it's 4th and inches you go for it. Unless you are the spineless wonder named John Fox.

Agamemnon
11-11-2012, 02:47 PM
AND after one of the most complete games I've ever seen the broncos play. Perfection doesn't exist in football and from a team perspective, it doesn't get much better than today's performance.

I'm sorry, but our offensive performance was miles behind what would be needed to call this a "complete game".

Broncos4tw
11-11-2012, 02:57 PM
But we know the offense can play. I was waiting for solid games with defense and special teams. We got that. Our offense will rebound, I'm not worried. We are in the top 5 for points per game. Really.. you are going to whine about our offense?

And flailing away trying to win is stupid. Playing smart because you know your team is better is the way to go, as Fox knows. Frickin' drama queens.

Rock Chalk
11-11-2012, 03:38 PM
No if they had changed the spot of the ball that means we would have won te challenge - whether it resulted in a first down or not.

No, you lose that challenge if its not a first down. I gaurantee you that's how that works.

You can only challenge forward progress with respect to a first down. If forward progress does not result in a first down on the challenge, you lose the challenge (even if they move the ball) and lose your time out. The timeout would not have been important but the loss of the challenge may have been.

edit: Rule 3, Section 9, Part C.5

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

Greatspirits
11-11-2012, 04:31 PM
Give me a break! Fox is a good coach who was dealt with some tough circumstances in Carolina. I honestly believe his conservatism plus Peyton and Elway will equal a couple Super Bowls before its all said and done.

LRtagger
11-11-2012, 04:49 PM
No, you lose that challenge if its not a first down. I gaurantee you that's how that works.

You can only challenge forward progress with respect to a first down. If forward progress does not result in a first down on the challenge, you lose the challenge (even if they move the ball) and lose your time out. The timeout would not have been important but the loss of the challenge may have been.

edit: Rule 3, Section 9, Part C.5

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

You reference the rule for fair catches.

Rule 15, sec 9, A3 says you can challenge whether a runner is in or out of bounds regardless of first down marker.

Vine
11-11-2012, 04:54 PM
No, you lose that challenge if its not a first down. I gaurantee you that's how that works.

You can only challenge forward progress with respect to a first down. If forward progress does not result in a first down on the challenge, you lose the challenge (even if they move the ball) and lose your time out. The timeout would not have been important but the loss of the challenge may have been.

edit: Rule 3, Section 9, Part C.5

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

Thanks for this. It is how I thought it was handled, but wasn't 100% sure. I think a challenge would have been a good risk to use in that case. It would have resulted in respotting the ball, and a possible first down. There was a very good angle showing the ball conclusively, the tip of the ball right against the 24 yardline- the yardline needed for a first down. If the resulting spot would have been short, it would not have been short by more than 2 inches. They would have been in good position to go for it. Not sure that is what Fox wants though, knowing how conservative he likes to be.


Edit: I clicked the Rock Chalk's attachment of the NFL rules, and the section referenced in his post has nothing to do with forward progress in relation to 1st down. I looked closely in the section about reviewable plays, and there is no section regarding rules about reviewing forward progress in relation to a first down, EXCEPT for this NOTE concerning non-reviewable plays:

(Copied and pasted)

Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything. 8. Inadvertent Whistle


The part I bolded above (#5) suggest that forward progress is NOT reviewable on plays that don't involve first downs. So this does suggest that forward progress IS reviewable on plays involving first downs (just as most people thought), although I am unable to find any specifics regarding if a review results in a re-spot of the ball HAS to result in a first down in order for having the challenge to be considered won, and thus not losing the challenge and a timeout.

DBroncos4life
11-11-2012, 05:00 PM
You reference the rule for fair catches.

Rule 15, sec 9, A3 says you can challenge whether a runner is in or out of bounds regardless of first down marker.

They said Denver would lose the challenge on TV but, would gain the yards.

LRtagger
11-11-2012, 05:04 PM
They said Denver would lose the challenge on TV but, would gain the yards.

Could be but if so it's ****ing retarded. So if you have an 8 yard run on first down and the ball is spotted as a 5 yard gain you can't challenge that without losing a timeout?

Rock Chalk
11-11-2012, 05:05 PM
You reference the rule for fair catches.

Rule 15, sec 9, A3 says you can challenge whether a runner is in or out of bounds regardless of first down marker.

Its on Page 5 of that handbook, with the header of the page being Rule 15, Section 9

6. Forward Progress with respect to a first down (under Instant Replay)

Rock Chalk
11-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Could be but if so it's ****ing retarded. So if you have an 8 yard run on first down and the ball is spotted as a 5 yard gain you can't challenge that without losing a timeout?

No, you cannot challenge the spot of the ball unless it is debatable whether it is a first down.

Vine
11-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Could be but if so it's ****ing retarded. So if you have an 8 yard run on first down and the ball is spotted as a 5 yard gain you can't challenge that without losing a timeout?

I tend to agree, but this is a situation of where do you draw the line? You could have 20 reviews on spots during every NFL game, because referees commonly get spots wrong by 1/2 yard throughout games.

Maybe draw the line at 1 FULL YARD mis spot to avoid losing challenge and timeout. This would discourage teams from challenging every minor bad spot by referees.

Vine
11-11-2012, 05:13 PM
Its on Page 5 of that handbook, with the header of the page being Rule 15, Section 9

6. Forward Progress with respect to a first down (under Instant Replay)

That is actually on page 90

Rock Chalk
11-11-2012, 05:15 PM
That is actually on page 90

Weird, when I looked last time it said page 5. You are right though.

LRtagger
11-11-2012, 05:20 PM
I tend to agree, but this is a situation of where do you draw the line? You could have 20 reviews on spots during every NFL game, because referees commonly get spots wrong by 1/2 yard throughout games.

Maybe draw the line at 1 FULL YARD mis spot to avoid losing challenge and timeout. This would discourage teams from challenging every minor bad spot by referees.

You have a point. But they do limit each team to two challenges (3 max). That being the case the coaches should be able to challenge whatever the **** they want

LRtagger
11-11-2012, 05:22 PM
No, you cannot challenge the spot of the ball unless it is debatable whether it is a first down.

You could argue that he wouldn't have been challenging the spot of the ball but instead challenging whether the runner was out of bounds where the ref spotted the ball.

baja
11-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Keep in mind Fox has a defense that allowed 0 for 12 third down conversions

ZONA
11-11-2012, 06:03 PM
Pick 6, fumble recovery for td, sack and they get long fg try, hail mary td for newton, pi on hail mary vs possible long fg for Denver. Too much risk vs what you could get out of going for it.

Terrible logic. You could have that view of every single play in the game. Cmon man get real. You don't throw the ball. You challenge the spot (it was close enough to 1st down marker it should be allowed), get it to 4th and 1 and you run it. If you don't make it, probably leaves 3 to 4 seconds on the clock. Yeah, about a 1-500 chance Carolina would get a TD on that one play. On the other hand, we have a very good chance at getting points.

I betcha more then half the guy saying it was smart to punt are the same guys that said it was ok to have Leonard returning all punts and kicks just because they felt safe he wouldn't blow it, but knowing he didn't have any shot for a big play.

It's not Madden, I get that. But the reward vs risk was big time in Broncos favor. Understand that.

24champ
11-11-2012, 06:08 PM
This. The coach who rebuilt this team into what it is wins back to back road games, this one going away, and people are starting threads calling him a dumb ass and p***Y.

Reminds me of 2005, we're winning games and people were pissing and moaning on here that season.

DBroncos4life
11-11-2012, 06:08 PM
Terrible logic. You could have that view of every single play in the game. Cmon man get real. You don't throw the ball. You challenge the spot, get it to 4th and 1 and you run it. If you don't make it, probably leaves 3 to 4 seconds on the clock. Yeah, about a 1-500 chance Carolina would get a TD on that one play. On the other hand, we have a very good chance at getting points.

I betcha more then half the guy saying it was smart to punt are the same guys that said it was ok to have Leonard returning all punts and kicks just because they felt safe he wouldn't blow it, but knowing he didn't have any shot for a big play.

It's not Madden, I get that. But the reward vs risk was big time in Broncos favor. Understand that.

So throw away a challenge to get another yard. :rofl: You don't seem to understand that even if Denver WON that challenge to get the yard they LOSE the challenge.

ZONA
11-11-2012, 06:16 PM
So throw away a challenge to get another yard. :rofl: You don't seem to understand that even if Denver WON that challenge to get the yard they LOSE the challenge.

I'm not saying the "challenge" would have been needed. If he couldn't that's fine. It was 4th and 2. Still would not have changed things.

Honestly, I would much rather go for it, not get it, then allow my set defense to go out there and defend a single attempt at a 60 hail mary pass then to defend a punt return. I think if you guys look at stats, I betcha there the odds are better at a punt being returned for a TD then a hail marry pass.

Just my opinion though. I'm allowed.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2012, 06:21 PM
I'm not saying the "challenge" would have been needed. If he couldn't that's fine. It was 4th and 2. Still would not have changed things.

Honestly, I would much rather go for it, not get it, then allow my set defense to go out there and defend a single attempt at a 60 hail mary pass then to defend a punt return. I think if you guys look at stats, I betcha there the odds are better at a punt being returned for a TD then a hail marry pass.

Just my opinion though. I'm allowed.

You keep saying 4 and 1. If I remember correctly it was 4 and 10 from Carolina 49. As I pointed out there was a lot that could go wrong to risk a chance at a long fg. It's not terrible logic its playing the game right in a game we were dominating. You don't want to give other team life especially when you get ball back after the half. Kudos to Fox for finally taking ball in second half vs opening kickoff.

ZONA
11-11-2012, 06:24 PM
You keep saying 4 and 1. If I remember correctly it was 4 and 10 from Carolina 49. As I pointed out there was a lot that could go wrong to risk a chance at a long fg. It's not terrible logic its playing the game right in a game we were dominating. You don't want to give other team life especially when you get ball back after the half. Kudos to Fox for finally taking ball in second half vs opening kickoff.

Uhh, I didn't have anything to drink today but I do have a pretty good hangover from yesterday. But I don't think it was 4th and 10. The Bronco player went out of bounds just short of the 1st down marker. I'm pretty sure it was like 4th and 2, should have been 4th and 1 if the ref had any eyes.

ScottXray
11-11-2012, 10:14 PM
Actually it would have been 4th and <1 foot if the ref had eyes. That was a terrible spot.
Then you could let Manning at least attempt to draw them off with a hard count, and if they didn't snap it you give up 5 yards with almost no time left and punt then..

Or let Prater try a really long one.

Rocket 7
11-11-2012, 10:50 PM
You keep saying 4 and 1. If I remember correctly it was 4 and 10 from Carolina 49. As I pointed out there was a lot that could go wrong to risk a chance at a long fg. It's not terrible logic its playing the game right in a game we were dominating. You don't want to give other team life especially when you get ball back after the half. Kudos to Fox for finally taking ball in second half vs opening kickoff.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/dipsomaniac1/4and1.png

NFLBRONCO
11-11-2012, 10:55 PM
We are

Winning
We are playing well on ALL three phases
causing turnovers and scoring
Team plays hard for him

Things we have rarly done since SB years.

TY John Fox

All coaches do things you wish they wouldn't do but, gosh it wasn't that big of deal anyways.

lonestar
11-11-2012, 10:57 PM
Dumbest.Thread.Ever.

:thumbs: pretty close to the top of that list if not..

but consider the OP source..

lonestar
11-11-2012, 11:10 PM
We are

Winning
We are playing well on ALL three phases
causing turnovers and scoring
Team plays hard for him

Things we have rarly done since SB years.

TY John Fox

WE did not have a stellar day on Offense, their defense caused us some issues that we will need to fix before winning in the Playoffs..

Do not get me wrong we are light years from where we were last year this time, in all phases of the game save maybe consistently being able to run the ball..

Still think we need to beef those OL guys up another 10 pounds or so in upper body strength. Lets hope that is the goal over the off season.. PLUS getting some better depth..

NFLBRONCO
11-11-2012, 11:20 PM
WE did not have a stellar day on Offense, their defense caused us some issues that we will need to fix before winning in the Playoffs..

Do not get me wrong we are light years from where we were last year this time, in all phases of the game save maybe consistently being able to run the ball..

Still think we need to beef those OL guys up another 10 pounds or so in upper body strength. Lets hope that is the goal over the off season.. PLUS getting some better depth..


I agree with you 100% we need to get better for playoffs. It's just been fun to watch a team make plays in all phases. I agree with your offseason plan too but, nothing we can do right now.

I am concerned with running game it needs to get alot better. Stop coughing up ball Willis geez.

lonestar
11-11-2012, 11:52 PM
I agree with you 100% we need to get better for playoffs. It's just been fun to watch a team make plays in all phases. I agree with your offseason plan too but, nothing we can do right now.

I am concerned with running game it needs to get alot better. Stop coughing up ball Willis geez.

this defense today IIRC is ranked in the top 4 or 5..

I was hoping for a + mark on turnovers, was hoping that we could run the ball a bit better.. and to win TOP.. but we did not..

Our D played a hell of a game today, gittin yes GITTIN after Cam..

LRtagger
11-12-2012, 06:22 AM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/dipsomaniac1/4and1.png

There are two plays in question. The OP got everyone confused bc he got them mixed up. The 4th and 10 came at the end of the half. The 4th and 2 came earlier in the quarter. We did attempt a FG after the bad spot on 4th and 2 and Prater missed it. The problem with that play is it was a terrible spot on what looked like a potential 1st down. If not a 1st down, then a 4th and an inch.

I'm fine with not kicking the FG on 4th and 10. If there were 3 sec left maybe. You are up 17-7 on the road you dont give the home team an opportunity to swing the momentum and get the crowd into it.

canadianbroncosfan
11-12-2012, 06:30 AM
There are two plays in question. The OP got everyone confused bc he got them mixed up. The 4th and 10 came at the end of the half. The 4th and 2 came earlier in the quarter. We did attempt a FG after the bad spot on 4th and 2 and Prater missed it. The problem with that play is it was a terrible spot on what looked like a potential 1st down. If not a 1st down, then a 4th and an inch.

I'm fine with not kicking the FG on 4th and 10. If there were 3 sec left maybe. You are up 17-7 on the road you dont give the home team an opportunity to swing the momentum and get the crowd into it.

Me too, not only are you up 10 but you deferred and get the ball back right after the half. Kick it away and let the half end.