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broncosteven
11-07-2012, 04:39 PM
So with Tillman getting all sorts of media for his 4 FF game vs Titans I have been arguing with the locals here in the Chicago area that Champ is the better CB.

I think Tillman is a decent CB, now that he has been moved to the right side but his FF act is desperation because teams have made plays on him.

The bears teach turnovers and in their zone based scheme are taught to hold guys up and the 2nd person in come in for the strip. Tillman was punching it out rather than bothering to make a tackle last week. I think they saw something on film and let him go after getting up big early.

Who would you take and why.

Houshyamama
11-07-2012, 04:41 PM
Tillman has the hot hand right now. He'll fade back into the pack soon enough.

ludo21
11-07-2012, 04:42 PM
da champ of course.

He could use some of the power punches like Tillman does though from time time. that would be nice

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 04:47 PM
My friends are all talking DPOY for Tillman, I think they are high an fumes.

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 04:49 PM
My friends are all talking DPOY for Tillman, I think they are high an fumes.

He's definitely making JJ work for it. There is no, and has never been, a better cover-2 CB than Charles Tillman, and this might be the best season any one of them has ever had.

Action
11-07-2012, 04:52 PM
Two different schemes...

But Tillman is talented and physical as hell. He took it to Calvin Johnson earlier this year...

http://i.imgur.com/rTkCt.jpg

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 04:52 PM
He's definitely making JJ work for it. There is no, and has never been, a better cover-2 CB than Charles Tillman, and this might be the best season any one of them has ever had.

Would Tillman be as effective with us or is he strictly a CB than needs safety help over the top to be effective?

baja
11-07-2012, 05:01 PM
With Manning's window it's a no brainer Champ.

swaiy
11-07-2012, 05:11 PM
I wonder how many missed tackles Tillman has from trying to create all these turnovers.

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 05:19 PM
Would Tillman be as effective with us or is he strictly a CB than needs safety help over the top to be effective?

Generally? No. It's almost an entirely different position in it's utilization (think the way Miller is used vs the way a traditional OLB is, despite "same position")

That being said, this year's been extremely dynamic and he's literally doing everything right, so yes, he'd still be outperforming all our CBs by a very large margin (and they're all playing well).

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 05:21 PM
I wonder how many missed tackles Tillman has from trying to create all these turnovers.

VERY FEW IF ANY.

He also leads the Bears in tackles and solo tackles.

swaiy
11-07-2012, 05:27 PM
VERY FEW IF ANY.

He also leads the Bears in tackles and solo tackles.

Well damn. Maybe he is Mr. Hot **** then. Ha!

gyldenlove
11-07-2012, 05:29 PM
Tillman right now, he is playing a very complete game, he is using his physicality to disrupt routes. He would not be as effective in a pure man-cover scheme, but he is having a hell of a season so far.

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 05:30 PM
Well damn. Maybe he is Mr. Hot **** then. Ha!

A few weeks ago I wrote this:

If Charles Tillman can string together a few more seasons, he can’t be kept out of Canton. His turnover numbers are solid (a staggering number of forced fumbles) and will end up with the most career tackles for any cornerback in league history… and they’re not from getting beat often either!

His hot-streak has turned into a raging-inferno even since then.

Gcver2ver3
11-07-2012, 05:34 PM
imagine what Champ would do being able to play freely knowing safety help is over the top...

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 05:37 PM
imagine what Champ would do being able to play freely knowing safety help is over the top...

Champ's body would be done by week 8 if he had to play Tillman's spot, man.

bowtown
11-07-2012, 05:38 PM
Rev hates CBs so much.

Tim
11-07-2012, 05:49 PM
Champ, but if I took off my homer glasses it would be Tillman right now, 4 ff's last week Yikes!

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 05:55 PM
Champ, but if I took off my homer glasses it would be Tillman right now, 4 ff's last week Yikes!

Responsible for 10 turnovers...

For some perspective, our entire defense has 12... and we're not doing bad.

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 06:09 PM
Responsible for 10 turnovers...

For some perspective, our entire defense has 12... and we're not doing bad.

Does the fact that Tillman never had more than 5 INT's in a season buy anything?

Champ had years of 8 and 10 INTs.

I don't buy Tillman as a shutdown type CB, guys make plays on him all game.

Plus they moved him from LCB to RCB because he wasn't as effective.

The FF is a nice trick but take that away and his he sit in DPOY run?

Action
11-07-2012, 06:11 PM
The FF is a nice trick but take that away and his he sit in DPOY run?

Why would you take that away?

Take sacks away from Von Miller and he's a 7th round pick.

extralife
11-07-2012, 06:12 PM
Two different schemes...

But Tillman is talented and physical as hell. He took it to Calvin Johnson earlier this year...

http://i.imgur.com/rTkCt.jpg

whoa, this is a really cool shot

cutthemdown
11-07-2012, 06:12 PM
Tillman has always been underrated. He makes more big plays so right now i vote Tillman. But i wouldnt trade Champ for anyone.

extralife
11-07-2012, 06:18 PM
Does the fact that Tillman never had more than 5 INT's in a season buy anything?

Champ had years of 8 and 10 INTs.

I don't buy Tillman as a shutdown type CB, guys make plays on him all game.

Plus they moved him from LCB to RCB because he wasn't as effective.

The FF is a nice trick but take that away and his he sit in DPOY run?

cover 2 CB, he's not going to get a lot of picks. "shutdown" also doesn't really exist in that scheme. that said, would Champ be better at Tillman's job than Tillman would be at Champ's? Absolutely. Rev's contention that Champ isn't physical enough to do it (or whatever else he might mean with his above comment) is ludicrous.

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 06:24 PM
cover 2 CB, he's not going to get a lot of picks. "shutdown" also doesn't really exist in that scheme. that said, would Champ be better at Tillman's job than Tillman would be at Champ's? Absolutely. Rev's contention that Champ isn't physical enough to do it (or whatever else he might mean with his above comment) is ludicrous.

:spit: Where did I say "not physical enough"?

I said he'd wear down by mid-season... and he would.

Not only is Champ's body physically smaller, he's played all 16 games in only 1 of the past 5 seasons and the amount of tackles Tillman has had already are the standard amount for a SEASON for Champ.

And that's not even taking into account the more violent and jarring the shots are in that setup.

In closing, you're a ****ing idiot.

PS. Cover 2 corners get picks like crazy. It's a read-the-QB short zone, moron.

extralife
11-07-2012, 06:42 PM
"physically smaller?" Tillman's got what, five pounds on Champ?

the picks are almost exclusively from jumping short outs. the best cover 2 guys aren't squatting in their zones, they're engaging a receiver. look at the pick numbers of guys like Tillman, Barber, Winfield.

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 06:49 PM
:spit: Where did I say "not physical enough"?

I said he'd wear down by mid-season... and he would.

Not only is Champ's body physically smaller, he's played all 16 games in only 1 of the past 5 seasons and the amount of tackles Tillman has had already are the standard amount for a SEASON for Champ.

And that's not even taking into account the more violent and jarring the shots are in that setup.

In closing, you're a ****ing idiot.

PS. Cover 2 corners get picks like crazy. It's a read-the-QB short zone, moron.

Champ has had tackle totals in the 70's at least a couple times, plus I think he was leading the team in tackles back when we had 2 turds playing Safety for us.

Cover 2 CB's generate more INT's, plus Lovie coaches up turnovers. Just look at guys like Manning who get INT's while with duh bears then disappear and are never heard from again after they move to a new team.

Look at Tim Jennings INT #'s this year, before this year his high water mark was 2, he has 6 half way through.

Champ is physical enough to come up and make plays for the Safety's who are too deep for run support and he would be even more dangerous with constant help over the top.

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 06:55 PM
Champ has had tackle totals in the 70's at least a couple times, plus I think he was leading the team in tackles back when we had 2 turds playing Safety for us.

Cover 2 CB's generate more INT's, plus Lovie coaches up turnovers. Just look at guys like Manning who get INT's while with duh bears then disappear and are never heard from again after they move to a new team.

Look at Tim Jennings INT #'s this year, before this year his high water mark was 2, he has 6 half way through.

Champ is physical enough to come up and make plays for the Safety's who are too deep for run support and he would be even more dangerous with constant help over the top.

You don't have to sell me on champs qualities. Tillman is just having a much better year comparative and respectively

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 06:59 PM
You don't have to sell me on champs qualities. Tillman is just having a much better year comparative and respectively

I know, mentioned Jennings for the dude who thought Cover 2 D's get less INT's.

Just being Tough and Competent


...or trying to be!

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 07:04 PM
I know, mentioned Jennings for the dude who thought Cover 2 D's get less INT's.

Just being Tough and Competent


...or trying to be!

Gene is so proud.

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 07:26 PM
Gene is so proud.

I haven't had to hide this much wood since High School!

I started tingling also but I think it is just time for my nerve meds.

Peoples Champ
11-07-2012, 07:53 PM
da champ of course.

He could use some of the power punches like Tillman does though from time time. that would be nice


thats what i think

MagicHef
11-07-2012, 08:23 PM
I wonder how many missed tackles Tillman has from trying to create all these turnovers.

He has 1, same as Champ.

tsiguy96
11-07-2012, 08:52 PM
not sure why everyone here is trying to downplay the type of year tillman is having, its unnecessary. hes been outstanding, champ has been champ (except against AJ)

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 08:54 PM
not sure why everyone here is trying to downplay the type of year tillman is having, its unnecessary. hes been outstanding, champ has been champ (except against AJ)

Bear fans were getting cocky at 7-1 after beating Titans, squeaking by Carolina, and Jags among others.

Wanted others opinions is all.

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 08:55 PM
Bear fans were getting cocky at 7-1 after beating Titans, squeaking by Carolina, and Jags among others.

Wanted others opinions is all.

Take shots at their OL. That never gets old.

broncosteven
11-07-2012, 09:00 PM
Take shots at their OL. That never gets old.

I told them that JJ Watt's stats will be skewed because of all the sacks he is going to rack up Sunday night. They moved the goal posts to turnovers and Tillman as DPOY

TheReverend
11-07-2012, 09:04 PM
I told them that JJ Watt's stats will be skewed because of all the sacks he is going to rack up Sunday night. They moved the goal posts to turnovers and Tillman as DPOY

Haha. As if JJ's stats weren't through the roof enough.

DENVERDUI55
11-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Cover 2 CB get plenty of picks provided the DL does its job and gets pressure quick. When they do it allows the CB to jump routes and get INT s which go the distance a lot. Tillman is having a phenominal year and even Jennings looks great.

NUB
11-07-2012, 09:36 PM
Charles Tillman has been an excellent corner for years. He does not have the sort of elite athleticism to put him up there with prime-Champ/Woodson, but he is basically the top of the next "tier". His forced fumbles are just a representation of the Bears defense in general which focuses on turnovers. Bailey is getting older, but he's still a very fast player and totally capable of blanketing receivers. People either forget or don't know, but Bailey was a complete freak of an athlete coming out of college -- he ran a 4.28/40, the same as Deion Sanders back in '89. Champ also had unreal "burst" times in the shuttle and 10/20-yard dash markers. Those physical tools are gonna last a while.

Kaylore
11-07-2012, 09:49 PM
I'd like to point out that Champ's name is awesome whereas Charles Tillman sounds like a guy in the House of Lords.

Bacchus
11-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Tillman has been playing great. Maybe he is playing better than Champ now but has he played better the last 10 years? Teams do not throw to Champ's side that much He got his most work of the year last week against the Bengals.

I voted Champ for history. Statisitcally Tillman is having a great year but I have not watched one Bears' game this year.

Bacchus
11-07-2012, 11:20 PM
I'd like to point out that Champ's name is awesome whereas Charles Tillman sounds like a guy in the House of Lords.

Chuck Tillman maybe???

Punisher
11-08-2012, 03:24 AM
It's a No Brainer its Tillman, I still love champ tho my favorite bronco

eddie mac
11-08-2012, 04:54 AM
Right now, given the team either player is on and the system's they use, Tillman is far better. I was actually quite shocked how easily Green beat Champ last week on a few plays. It's actually quite comforting that Harris and Carter are playing so well.

cutthemdown
11-08-2012, 05:49 AM
Tillman has a knack for defensive tds. Really Champ not that great at picking off the ball and taking it back all the way. At least not anymore he's not.

Champ is due for a big big play though IMO.

broncogary
11-08-2012, 06:10 AM
I'd like to point out that Champ's name is awesome whereas Charles Tillman sounds like a guy in the House of Lords.

Roland Bailey, M. P. ;D






Or Peanut Tillman, M. P.? ROFL!

TheChamp24
11-08-2012, 06:58 AM
Right now, given the team either player is on and the system's they use, Tillman is far better. I was actually quite shocked how easily Green beat Champ last week on a few plays. It's actually quite comforting that Harris and Carter are playing so well.

Easily beat Champ? AJ worked for those catches and yards, and required absolute perfection from the throws.

And someone mentioned Champ not getting defensive TD's, it seems most of his picks are from throws challenging him and him making a stellar interception with no room to run.

I still think Champ should move to safety soon, his instincts and eyes and burst are incredible, he'd have a Rod Woodson like impact I would think moving to safety.

cmhargrove
11-08-2012, 07:14 AM
Tillman has indeed put together a sensational season thus far, and he has been a solid defender for years. However, we are still heading into the part of the season where everything really matters. This story is still being written.

This will be an interesting thread to keep active for the rest of the year and see how many "game determining plays" each is responsible for. Good thread, good discussion.

Chicago's remaining schedule is much harder than ours, with many big-time receivers, so Tillman should be tested.

Houston
San Fran
Min
Seattle
Min
Green Bay
Arizona
Detroit

Bacchus
11-08-2012, 09:21 AM
Easily beat Champ? AJ worked for those catches and yards, and required absolute perfection from the throws.

And someone mentioned Champ not getting defensive TD's, it seems most of his picks are from throws challenging him and him making a stellar interception with no room to run.

I still think Champ should move to safety soon, his instincts and eyes and burst are incredible, he'd have a Rod Woodson like impact I would think moving to safety.

He easily beat Champ on 5 receptions for about 55 yards a TD and an interception.

CEH
11-08-2012, 10:46 AM
The only thing is Lovie teaches this type of turnover defense. His defenses have the most turnovers in the NFL since he has been the Bears coach. Tillman is having a better year than Champ but hard for Peanut to match Champ's back to back years of 05 and 06 when Champ should have been DPOY in 06 instead of Taylor (?) and his 18 INts and 3 returned for TDs

Drunken.Broncoholic
11-08-2012, 12:50 PM
Tillman is a stud. He's playing lights out right now

broncosteven
11-12-2012, 11:58 AM
Tillman is a stud. He's playing lights out right now

Someone turned on the lights last night.

Tillman was ineffective, allowed Johnson to complete multiple passes for 1st downs and was unable to do his desperation parlor trick vs a very good NFL team.

Meanwhile I think Champ had one penalty but I don't remember Smith catching anything other than a screen behind the LOS.

Beantown Bronco
11-12-2012, 12:10 PM
I wouldn't want Tillman over Champ on the Broncos for one very practical reason:

He could force 100 fumbles and for whatever reason we wouldn't be able to pick up any of them. It's like we're allergic to recovering fumbles.

gyldenlove
11-12-2012, 12:13 PM
The only thing is Lovie teaches this type of turnover defense. His defenses have the most turnovers in the NFL since he has been the Bears coach. Tillman is having a better year than Champ but hard for Peanut to match Champ's back to back years of 05 and 06 when Champ should have been DPOY in 06 instead of Taylor (?) and his 18 INts and 3 returned for TDs

That 06 year was the most dominant year of any DB in football since they changed the interference and contact rules. Champ had more recieving yards, receptions and TD than the WRs he was covering.

Pick Six
11-12-2012, 12:16 PM
I'd like to point out that Champ's name is awesome whereas Charles Tillman sounds like a guy in the House of Lords.

Roland? :clown:

TheReverend
11-12-2012, 12:17 PM
Someone turned on the lights last night.

Tillman was ineffective, allowed Johnson to complete multiple passes for 1st downs and was unable to do his desperation parlor trick vs a very good NFL team.

Meanwhile I think Champ had one penalty but I don't remember Smith catching anything other than a screen behind the LOS.

LOL

Steven... are you high, bud? He held Andre Johnson (a top 5, maybe top 3 WR) to 4 catches for 35 yards...

MagicHef
11-12-2012, 12:23 PM
LOL

Steven... are you high, bud? He held Andre Johnson (a top 5, maybe top 3 WR) to 4 catches for 35 yards...

...in a rainy, windy game where no QB even got to 100 yards for the night.

DENVERDUI55
11-12-2012, 12:24 PM
Someone turned on the lights last night.

Tillman was ineffective, allowed Johnson to complete multiple passes for 1st downs and was unable to do his desperation parlor trick vs a very good NFL team.

Meanwhile I think Champ had one penalty but I don't remember Smith catching anything other than a screen behind the LOS.

I don't know about that. He did a pretty good job one on one all night.

TheReverend
11-12-2012, 12:27 PM
...in a rainy, windy game where no QB even got to 100 yards for the night.

5 incompleted targets at Andre.

That's more than the completions.

And most importantly they had to get the ball to him short (bubble screens and shallow crossing routes) just to get the ball in his hands.

That's a crazy ass-whipping by Tillman for those who know wtf they're seeing.

broncosteven
11-12-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't know about that. He did a pretty good job one on one all night.

Schaub missed a couple times down field. None of the QB's were very accurate last night.

broncosteven
11-12-2012, 12:33 PM
5 incompleted targets at Andre.

That's more than the completions.

And most importantly they had to get the ball to him short (bubble screens and shallow crossing routes) just to get the ball in his hands.

That's a crazy ass-whipping by Tillman for those who know wtf they're seeing.

Look at what Champ did vs Smith

Smith was targeted 7 times, 1 completion off a screen completed behind the LOS. Champ had 1 flag other than that he shutdown his guy all day.

Tillman is good, my point is Champ is better.