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gyldenlove
10-29-2012, 08:07 AM
I noticed we played a lot of big nickel defense last night with Leonhard playing FS, Moore playing SS and Mike Adams covering Graham.

I don't remember seeing that alignment before this season, and frankly I don't remember the Broncos doing it since we had Kenoy Kennedy.

Bmore Manning
10-29-2012, 08:37 AM
Yeah and on the touchdown to Graham, Moore failed to step up when the play happened in front of him..

LRtagger
10-29-2012, 08:42 AM
They played it against SD and I think against NE too

ScottXray
10-29-2012, 08:46 AM
Yeah and on the touchdown to Graham, Moore failed to step up when the play happened in front of him..

Trevathan had Sproles and totally whiffed ( got faked out of his socks) by his inside move, which gave him the free release. Moore then failed to tackle but the play was not Moores fault, so much as Trevathans. Sproles is hard to tackle in the open field, and I don't blame Moore for not making ONE play.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 09:00 AM
I noticed we played a lot of big nickel defense last night with Leonhard playing FS, Moore playing SS and Mike Adams covering Graham.

I don't remember seeing that alignment before this season, and frankly I don't remember the Broncos doing it since we had Kenoy Kennedy.

*Sam Brandon

The Joker
10-29-2012, 09:01 AM
Trevathan had Sproles and totally whiffed ( got faked out of his socks) by his inside move, which gave him the free release. Moore then failed to tackle but the play was not Moores fault, so much as Trevathans. Sproles is hard to tackle in the open field, and I don't blame Moore for not making ONE play.

He means the TD at the end of the game.

socalorado
10-29-2012, 09:09 AM
*Sam Brandon

And Brandon played the Big Nickel well.
I actually think Moore would be better suited to playing the actual "BN" position with Adams playing centerfield FS.
However, obvioulsy the coaching staff doesnt believe that. So, whatever.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 09:22 AM
And Brandon played the Big Nickel well.
I actually think Moore would be better suited to playing the actual "BN" position with Adams playing centerfield FS.
However, obvioulsy the coaching staff doesnt believe that. So, whatever.

I think Q Carter will be the best at it... when he gets healthy.

swaiy
10-29-2012, 09:25 AM
He means the TD at the end of the game.

The one that should have never happened because the playclock expired and it should have been delay of game?

socalorado
10-29-2012, 09:29 AM
I think Q Carter will be the best at it... when he gets healthy.

Ooooh! Yeah, thats a solid observation. Carter is physical, and also solid in coverage. I like it.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 09:31 AM
Ooooh! Yeah, thats a solid observation. Carter is physical, and also solid in coverage. I like it.

Well I've been calling that one since he got drafted and it has yet to consistently manifest itself (here and there last year), so let's not get too excited Ha!

ScottXray
10-29-2012, 09:36 AM
He means the TD at the end of the game.

My bad. Thought it was the other (non garbage time) TD.

gyldenlove
10-29-2012, 09:45 AM
They played it against SD and I think against NE too

They did in the 1st half against SD that is correct, I forgot about that.

gyldenlove
10-29-2012, 09:45 AM
*Sam Brandon

You are correct sir.

Kaylore
10-29-2012, 09:53 AM
Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

Ray Finkle
10-29-2012, 10:10 AM
Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

not as much as in the past. It's never a good sign though.

pricejj
10-29-2012, 10:14 AM
I think Q Carter will be the best at it... when he gets healthy.

Yeah, too bad for the microfracture, like Kahn said...Big Nickel would have been a good role for Carter.

Mediator12
10-29-2012, 10:22 AM
Leonard has been outstanding at safety, its time to pull a joe mays and bench Adams. Leonard makes that big nickle defense work on the back end.

Also, they have run the big nickle against almost every team this year. Just not as much as they were able to last night because they were playing with the lead and NO was not trying to run the ball at all.

ZONA
10-29-2012, 12:22 PM
Yeah and on the touchdown to Graham, Moore failed to step up when the play happened in front of him..

I saw that play. He was not sure on where to help, the outside deep route or on the inside route that went to Graham. Turns out, that if you don't make your mind up and do neither, that's just as bad as choosing wrong. This is EXACTLY what I said about Moore last week. I said his tackling is definitely getting better but he still hesitates on choices. He is not doing the best at reading where the QB wants to go. He has got to improve that or the good teams will eat him alive in the passing game.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 12:25 PM
I saw that play. He was not sure on where to help, the outside deep route or on the inside route that went to Graham. Turns out, that if you don't make your mind up and do neither, that's just as bad as choosing wrong. This is EXACTLY what I said about Moore last week. I said his tackling is definitely getting better but he still hesitates on choices. He is not doing the best at reading where the QB wants to go. He has got to improve that or the good teams will eat him alive in the passing game.

It was the right play outside of the goalline.

He's growing. It's a cerebral position and the rest will come.

ZONA
10-29-2012, 12:25 PM
Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

Way too many people making comebacks after having that now days. The way they do the repair is much better and athletes are having near full recovery's. I still think it's a good idea to draft a safety next year. Maybe like 4th or 5th round.

ZONA
10-29-2012, 12:31 PM
It was the right play outside of the goalline.

He's growing. It's a cerebral position and the rest will come.

What was the right play, to stay center field and give help on neither of the 2 routes? I don't agree. To a point you stay centerfield so you can give help to either side but the further the play goes along, you have to make a choice. Against the better QB's in this league, you can't simply react once the ball is thrown, by then you'll be too late. You have to try and have a feel for where the QB wants to go, favor that direction but not committing to it fully. If you guessed wrong, you won't be able to get to the other guy in time to stop the possible catch but you could assist with the tackle. By favoring your direction when the play is about 3/4 through, that gives you time to get to the potential WR in time to make a play on the ball. Especially since you're talking about a long pass play to the endzone. You CAN'T stay middle and never choose. Either of those receivers in that case would have had a 1 on 1 catch against the CB with no safety help. That CAN'T happen. But he is growing, I know, I said that also. But this is the area he needs the most improvement in. Which is odd, because I thought coming out of college his cover skills were better then his tackling skills.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2012, 12:34 PM
*Sam Brandon

This.

Why does everyone forget about Sam Brandon? We owned tight ends when we had that guy.

One of the most under-rated broncos I can think of.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 12:35 PM
What was the right play, to stay center field and give help on neither of the 2 routes? I don't agree. To a point you stay centerfield so you can give help to either side but the further the play goes along, you have to make a choice. Against the better QB's in this league, you can't simply react once the ball is thrown, by then you'll be too late. You have to try and have a feel for where the QB wants to go, favor that direction but not committing to it fully. If you guessed wrong, you won't be able to get to the other guy in time to stop the possible catch but you could assist with the tackle. By favoring your direction when the play is about 3/4 through, that gives you time to get to the potential WR in time to make a play on the ball. Especially since you're talking about a long pass play to the endzone. You CAN'T stay middle and never choose. Either of those receivers in that case would have had a 1 on 1 catch against the CB with no safety help. That CAN'T happen. But he is growing, I know, I said that also. But this is the area he needs the most improvement in. Which is odd, because I thought coming out of college his cover skills were better then his tackling skills.

Re-read what I said. Keywords "outside of the goal line".

OUTSIDE OF THE GOAL LINE the correct play is to do what he did. Don't commit until the QB does and make the stop to save 6.

And the bolded portion of your post is crazy wrong. It should say, "against the better QBs in the league you can't have BLOWN COVERAGE"

DENVERDUI55
10-29-2012, 12:40 PM
Who cares on the Graham TD. Game was over and it is easy for a team to lose concentration. I have no problem with mental errors up 27 pts with 4 minutes left and our backup QB in. I'll give a pass holding one of the top QB's in the league to zero big deep plays and 14 pts.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 12:45 PM
Who cares on the Graham TD. Game was over and it is easy for a team to lose concentration. I have no problem with mental errors up 27 pts with 4 minutes left and our backup QB in. I'll give a pass holding one of the top QB's in the league to zero big deep plays and 14 pts.

Not a mental error. A situational awareness error.

ZONA
10-29-2012, 12:55 PM
Who cares on the Graham TD. Game was over and it is easy for a team to lose concentration. I have no problem with mental errors up 27 pts with 4 minutes left and our backup QB in. I'll give a pass holding one of the top QB's in the league to zero big deep plays and 14 pts.

We are not indicating he only did this on 1 play. We're talking about the entire season so far, that was just a play that showcased our talking point. We can discuss theory of safety play all day long but the fact is, the better cover safeties in the league have a good feel for where the ball is going to go and they position themselves to make a play on the ball (for the most part, not always, nobody could be 100% in the right position every time). I've watched Ed Reed in detail many times and this is what I see him do. Call it cheating on a play or whatever, but he simply doesn't just always play it safe and sit there and react only once the ball is in the air, only to get there to help or make the tackle once the ball has been caught. The purpose of a safety is not ONLY to be the last safety valve to save a possible TD, but to help prevent the catch in the first place. If they never tried to make plays to stop the catch, and to only assist in the tackle once the ball has been caught, you might as well just go ahead and call that a prevent defense.

Mediator12
10-29-2012, 01:01 PM
Not a mental error. A situational awareness error.

Actually, it was both in that situation. Not adjusting situationally is a major mental error for a safety and he gave up a TD because of it.

That has been my major issue with him all year. He can not adjust situationally and that is a Major part of playing safety in the NFL. Overall, they actually stayed away form him last night. Personally, it looked like JDR schemed his best players towards their best players and rolled the dice. It worked last night and even when they did succeed, it was largely due to a blown coverage or other DEN error and not them just picking us apart.

DENVERDUI55
10-29-2012, 01:17 PM
Not a mental error. A situational awareness error.

That is same thing in most cases.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 01:18 PM
Actually, it was both in that situation. Not adjusting situationally is a major mental error for a safety and he gave up a TD because of it.

That has been my major issue with him all year. He can not adjust situationally and that is a Major part of playing safety in the NFL. Overall, they actually stayed away form him last night. Personally, it looked like JDR schemed his best players towards their best players and rolled the dice. It worked last night and even when they did succeed, it was largely due to a blown coverage or other DEN error and not them just picking us apart.

You can't call it both and then completely agree with me! Ha!

Yes a situational error is a mental error, we get it.

Rahim's been fine. You've been WAY too hard on him, blaming all of Mike Adams' woes on him as well.

SeedReaver
10-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

DBroncos4life
10-29-2012, 01:53 PM
Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

Joe Mays is that bad.

Action
10-29-2012, 01:58 PM
Trevathan had Sproles and totally whiffed ( got faked out of his socks) by his inside move, which gave him the free release. Moore then failed to tackle but the play was not Moores fault, so much as Trevathans. Sproles is hard to tackle in the open field, and I don't blame Moore for not making ONE play.

That was not Rahim Moore --> That was Mike Adams... I'm not sure how people make these type of mistakes every week thinking every single **** up is Moore when the numbers are the biggest things on their jerseys.

At the snap - Moore is lined up on the OPPOSITE side of Sproles.

http://imageshack.us/a/img824/8229/screenshot20121029at155.png

The missed tackle - Is #20 not obvious?

http://imageshack.us/a/img11/8229/screenshot20121029at155.png

To be fair, Sproles does **** to everyone including your best safeties in the league.

ZONA
10-29-2012, 02:01 PM
Joe Mays is that bad.

That, and once again, our offense had not been efficient enough to start the game and there was that usual "hole" we had dug. We did start to comeback though in that game as well. Which is why I've said in another post the 2 keys for Denver this year will be defense on 3rd down and offense scoring early.

phibacka31
10-29-2012, 02:04 PM
You can't call it both and then completely agree with me! Ha!

Yes a situational error is a mental error, we get it.

Rahim's been fine. You've been WAY too hard on him, blaming all of Mike Adams' woes on him as well.

THIS TIMES 10...

And I'm not talking about MEd, but most of the posters on the board that just rag on him when in reality 90% of the time it should be Adams they are blaming...

I've actually felt like Rahim has made some serious strides and makes me excite to see him into next year and beyond.

Action
10-29-2012, 02:04 PM
We are not indicating he only did this on 1 play. We're talking about the entire season so far, that was just a play that showcased our talking point. We can discuss theory of safety play all day long but the fact is, the better cover safeties in the league have a good feel for where the ball is going to go and they position themselves to make a play on the ball (for the most part, not always, nobody could be 100% in the right position every time). I've watched Ed Reed in detail many times and this is what I see him do. Call it cheating on a play or whatever, but he simply doesn't just always play it safe and sit there and react only once the ball is in the air, only to get there to help or make the tackle once the ball has been caught. The purpose of a safety is not ONLY to be the last safety valve to save a possible TD, but to help prevent the catch in the first place. If they never tried to make plays to stop the catch, and to only assist in the tackle once the ball has been caught, you might as well just go ahead and call that a prevent defense.

Ed Reed is going down as one of the best safeties of all time... there is a reason he's Ed Reed. You can't simply say, if you're not playing as good as Ed Reed, then you're just not very good.

This is Rahim Moore's 2nd year in a new system... player development, some of you people need to learn what this means.

While I do agree - Moore needs to be more aggressive in the passing game... I'm sure coaching will address that and I don't think the fine he received this year helped him much (an unfair fine at that).

pricejj
10-29-2012, 02:11 PM
Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

Mays was benched after that game...should tell you everything you need to know.

On the thread subject...Moore has ZERO missed tackles this season, and is our best Safety by far.

broncogary
10-29-2012, 02:16 PM
Could our new big nickel personnel help us beat the Pats if we meet them in the playoffs? Why did the Broncos defense look so piss poor against the Pats and overall look decent in every other game?

We can't cover good tight ends over the middle. Luckily Graham was limited by injury.

swaiy
10-29-2012, 02:50 PM
Poor Moore. You guys are getting a little ridiculous lol.

Cito Pelon
10-29-2012, 03:20 PM
Leonard has been outstanding at safety, its time to pull a joe mays and bench Adams. Leonard makes that big nickle defense work on the back end.

Also, they have run the big nickle against almost every team this year. Just not as much as they were able to last night because they were playing with the lead and NO was not trying to run the ball at all.

NO tried to run the ball in the 2nd half for a couple of series. I figure they were trying to get the LB's out of the deeper drops.

extralife
10-29-2012, 03:30 PM
without Porter, our CB depth is suspect. add in a TE like Graham and the big nickel wasn't much of a surprise.

Cito Pelon
10-29-2012, 03:32 PM
This.

Why does everyone forget about Sam Brandon? We owned tight ends when we had that guy.

One of the most under-rated broncos I can think of.

Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 03:32 PM
Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

Right there.

Lestat
10-29-2012, 03:34 PM
Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

the younger you are when you have it the better. especially if you get it earlier instead of as a last resort when the knee is on it's last leg in terms of a playing career.

if he was 35-40 he'd be screwed as the growth is severely slowed. under 30 is when the surgery works best.

Mediator12
10-29-2012, 04:09 PM
You can't call it both and then completely agree with me! Ha!

Yes a situational error is a mental error, we get it.

Rahim's been fine. You've been WAY too hard on him, blaming all of Mike Adams' woes on him as well.

No, I have called out Adams as our worst safety from the beginning. I also think Leonard should play over Adams and let Moore keep getting reps. Moore is young and has the Physical tools to improve. He needs as many reps as possible and needs to work his ass off in the film room. Its the only way for him to get better. Adams is a journeyman and not as good as Leonard right now IMHO from watching film.

What has bothered me is I just saw all these posts saying how much Moore has improved this year because of his tackling and his coverage. He has made some tackles, just no relevant ones and his coverage is old school don't get beat deep, but also do not learn to attack route combinations in your coverage correctly and situationally. Moore is a long way from being a good safety right now. He is still biding his time learning on the job. He is just a little slow on the uptake for me, especially with all the false praise for his performances to date.

This still kills me about young NFL safeties in general. The guys who I have seen do this very well at the college level can not adapt to the nuances of the pro game and all the different schemes and permutations of the route combinations. Guys who are mentally competent in college get blown away with the responsibility at the next level. You have to have all the tools to play safety in todays NFL, and that is real tough skill set with all the passing offenses out there. The young guys like Earl Thomas and Eric Berry have it and can read and make plays already. Not many other safeties, outside of Nate Allen, have come out recently and made a quick difference for teams.

Mediator12
10-29-2012, 04:13 PM
Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

He also kept Gates and Gonzalez from having decent games against DEN and DEN was the number one team in the NFL against TE's those 2 years he manned the Big Nickle spot. That is why people think highly of him. He took away the huge TE mismatch in the passing game and was also decent in the run game against 11 Personnel.

TheReverend
10-29-2012, 04:19 PM
No, I have called out Adams as our worst safety from the beginning. I also think Leonard should play over Adams and let Moore keep getting reps. Moore is young and has the Physical tools to improve. He needs as many reps as possible and needs to work his ass off in the film room. Its the only way for him to get better. Adams is a journeyman and not as good as Leonard right now IMHO from watching film.

What has bothered me is I just saw all these posts saying how much Moore has improved this year because of his tackling and his coverage. He has made some tackles, just no relevant ones and his coverage is old school don't get beat deep, but also do not learn to attack route combinations in your coverage correctly and situationally. Moore is a long way from being a good safety right now. He is still biding his time learning on the job. He is just a little slow on the uptake for me, especially with all the false praise for his performances to date.

This still kills me about young NFL safeties in general. The guys who I have seen do this very well at the college level can not adapt to the nuances of the pro game and all the different schemes and permutations of the route combinations. Guys who are mentally competent in college get blown away with the responsibility at the next level. You have to have all the tools to play safety in todays NFL, and that is real tough skill set with all the passing offenses out there. The young guys like Earl Thomas and Eric Berry have it and can read and make plays already. Not many other safeties, outside of Nate Allen, have come out recently and made a quick difference for teams.

This is insane! When it's a single deep safety, it's almost always him. The majority of his tackles are stopping 6 (and with 31 solo--second on the team, btw--that's a lot of points)!

You can see the tangible improvement statistically as well! We've long been a team plagued by runs of 20+... even last year playing small-ball we were still 21st in the league.

This year we're 8th! Through 7 games we've allowed only 4 runs of 20+ and ZERO of 40+.

Moore isn't as talented as Earl Thomas or Eric Berry... but he also isn't getting schemed into the same plays as them either.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2012, 04:30 PM
Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

*shakes head*

Do you even watch football?

Go look at the premier TE matchups when Sam was our Big Nickle guy. Go see how well they did against us when Sam played.

You know why his stats were low (nevermind that 13 PDs is pretty ****ing awesome for a safety)? Because his coverage was so god damn good no one threw at him.

lonestar
10-29-2012, 04:32 PM
Carter had microfracture surgery, I think. That puts his career in doubt, unfortunately.

that is how I saw it.. even IF he returns it is a matter of how long..

Cito Pelon
10-29-2012, 05:28 PM
*shakes head*

Do you even watch football?

Go look at the premier TE matchups when Sam was our Big Nickle guy. Go see how well they did against us when Sam played.

You know why his stats were low (nevermind that 13 PDs is pretty ****ing awesome for a safety)? Because his coverage was so god damn good no one threw at him.

Yeesh. Sam Brandon had 9 PD's in 2003, 4 PD's for the rest of his career. 13 PD's for a 5 year career. But if you say he was dynamite that's ok with me.

Vegas_Bronco
10-29-2012, 05:30 PM
*Sam Brandon

OF THE UNLV REBELS!

Vegas_Bronco
10-29-2012, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cito Pelon
Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?

Right there.

And Right here in Vegas...Cito, watch your back in Vegas.

Cito Pelon
10-29-2012, 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cito Pelon
Brandon had 12 starts, one INT, 13 PD's, 2 FF's, and 101 total tackles in his entire career. Where did this myth he was a badass get started?



And Right here in Vegas...Cito, watch your back in Vegas.

Will do so.