Sometimes, It's Simple

[Rohirrim]

Romney's jobs policy is to give more tax breaks to the rich (20%, plus getting rid of the estate tax and the Alternative Minimum Tax) and then the economy will be unleashed and jobs will be created. He says our current rates, "...discourage work and entrepreneurship." So, his solution is to lower tax rates even more for the already rich and corporations. He also says he's going to get rid of loopholes, but we all know how that works. You go after a loophole and suddenly you've got a whole bunch of lobbyists and lawyers in congressional offices waving their checkbooks around and the cuts in taxes seem to happen, but the closing of loopholes doesn't. That's reality. That's why Romney won't mention a single loophole he intends to cut.

Here's the "simplicity" part. Taxes on the rich have been going down for forty years. Like we see from Romney's returns, he's paying less than 15%. And still, that's not enough? Not only have their tax rates dropped, but their piece of the income pie has gone up exponentially. For example, from 1996 to 2006, the poorest 20% of tax filers experienced a 6% reduction in income while the top 0.1 percent of tax filers (Romney's group) saw their income almost double. The rich in America are now richer, by far, than the Robber Barons ever hoped to be. Richer than Carnegie. Richer than Rockefeller.

In fact, they have so much money that they don't know what to do with it. Literally. They are hiding $32 trillion dollars offshore so it won't be taxed, even at these, the lowest rates in a hundred years. You know what the conservative solution to this problem is (from Forbes and the WSJ, for instance)? Lower their taxes! That's right. They say if we lower the taxes, the rich will bring all that money home to be properly taxed. The rates are just too high and that's what's stopping them. BTW, for the first time in American history, a candidate for president is one of those people hiding money offshore while he runs on a platform of lowering taxes for himself.

Anyway, to make a long story short: If lowering taxes on the rich and corporations will create jobs, why aren't jobs being created now? After the Bush tax cuts, we lost jobs. The rich are paying fewer taxes than they have paid in a hundred years. Shouldn't we be swimming in jobs?

[Rohirrim]

Hmmm. 54 views and no responses? :kiddingme

[Pony Boy]

Hmmm. 54 views and no responses? :kiddingme

Not 54 views, it's 54 people clicking on the thread and thinking, " I'm not going to waste my time reading this crap".

[Irish Stout]

I've heard conservatives say that they are voting for Romney because they prefer his economic policies.

[Rohirrim]

Not 54 views, it's 54 people clicking on the thread and thinking, " I'm not going to waste my time reading this crap".

Crap? You call simple logic "crap?" Romney says lowering taxes will create jobs. Taxes have never been lower. Where's the jobs? Romney says he's going to cut taxes on the rich another 20%. Of course, he pays less than 15%. So, where are the jobs going to come from?

[Blart]

Anyway, to make a long story short: If lowering taxes on the rich and corporations will create jobs, why aren't jobs being created now? After the Bush tax cuts, we lost jobs. The rich are paying fewer taxes than they have paid in a hundred years. Shouldn't we be swimming in jobs?

The GOP doesn't like evidence or science. Is it that strange to find their delusion applies to Economics?


I think the real goal of the GOP isn't stated, but is implicitly known by conservatives:

If you increase the deficit (via tax cuts, wars) as all Republicans have done since Reagan, social programs will have to be cut. It's a smart attack on the New Deal, and it leaves the GOP looking like the good guy:

Tax cuts are popular.
Wars get you re-elected.
And saying, "we can't afford those programs, even though we love them" makes you look level-headed.

[Garcia Bronco]

MITT'S PLAN
Reducing and stabilizing federal spending is essential, but breathing life into the present anemic recovery will also require fixing the nation’s tax code to focus on jobs and growth. To repair the nation’s tax code, marginal rates must be brought down to stimulate entrepreneurship, job creation, and investment, while still raising the revenue needed to fund a smaller, smarter, simpler government. The principle of fairness must be preserved in federal tax and spending policy.

Individual Taxes

America’s individual tax code applies relatively high marginal tax rates on a narrow tax base. Those high rates discourage work and entrepreneurship, as well as savings and investment. With 54 percent of private sector workers employed outside of corporations, individual rates also define the incentives for job-creating businesses. Lower marginal tax rates secure for all Americans the economic gains from tax reform.

Make permanent, across-the-board 20 percent cut in marginal rates
Maintain current tax rates on interest, dividends, and capital gains
Eliminate taxes for taxpayers with AGI below $200,000 on interest, dividends, and capital gains
Eliminate the Death Tax
Repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

Corporate Taxes

The U.S. economy’s 35 percent corporate tax rate is among the highest in the industrial world, reducing the ability of our nation’s businesses to compete in the global economy and to invest and create jobs at home. By limiting investment and growth, the high rate of corporate tax also hurts U.S. wages.

Cut the corporate rate to 25 percent
Strengthen and make permanent the R&D tax credit
Switch to a territorial tax system
Repeal the corporate Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

[Garcia Bronco]

The GOP doesn't like evidence or science. Is it that strange to find their delusion applies to Economics?


I think the real goal of the GOP isn't stated, but is implicitly known by conservatives:

If you increase the deficit (via tax cuts, wars) as all Republicans have done since Reagan, social programs will have to be cut. It's a smart attack on the New Deal, and it leaves the GOP looking like the good guy:

Tax cuts are popular.
Wars get you re-elected.
And saying, "we can't afford those programs, even though we love them" makes you look level-headed.

Democrats like to ignore human behavior, biology, chemistry, and physics.

[Garcia Bronco]

Crap? You call simple logic "crap?" Romney says lowering taxes will create jobs. Taxes have never been lower. Where's the jobs? Romney says he's going to cut taxes on the rich another 20%. Of course, he pays less than 15%. So, where are the jobs going to come from?


He's going to try and lower tax rates by 20 percent across the board. not jsut on the "Rich" who you've yet to define.

[BroncoInferno]

Democrats like to ignore human behavior, biology, chemistry, and physics.

Conservatives make intuitive judgements about things like "human behavior" that sound seductively plausible, but which the data often does not support. The "invisible hand" in economics is a perfect example of this.

[BroncoInferno]

He's going to try and lower tax rates by 20 percent across the board. not jsut on the "Rich" who you've yet to define.

Of course, he has yet to explain how he plans to give those tax cuts, add $2 trillion in military spending, and still magically balance the budget.

[Rohirrim]

Of course, he has yet to explain how he plans to give those tax cuts, add $2 trillion in military spending, and still magically balance the budget.

Or how those tax cuts are going to generate jobs.

Like Krugman said, "Tax cuts for the rich, who won't spend them, and slash spending for the poor and the middle class, who will be forced to cut back. And so we end up managing to have a simultaneous deficit explosion and double-dip recession."

[nyuk nyuk]

This thread should be retitled, ECONOMICS ILLITERACY AND CLASS BAITING 101 with a supplemental lab course of UNSOURCED CLAIMS AND STRAWMEN AS FACT.

Golf clap of the day issued.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2zqg1t1.gif

[Jetland]

Not 54 views, it's 54 people clicking on the thread and thinking, " I'm not going to waste my time reading this crap".

You are quickly becoming a favorite of mine I shall now and forever call you Derp Boy. We shall have many wonderful adventures Derp Boy and I.

[Rohirrim]

MITT'S PLAN
Reducing and stabilizing federal spending is essential, but breathing life into the present anemic recovery will also require fixing the nation’s tax code to focus on jobs and growth. To repair the nation’s tax code, marginal rates must be brought down to stimulate entrepreneurship, job creation, and investment, while still raising the revenue needed to fund a smaller, smarter, simpler government. The principle of fairness must be preserved in federal tax and spending policy.

Individual Taxes

America’s individual tax code applies relatively high marginal tax rates on a narrow tax base. Those high rates discourage work and entrepreneurship, as well as savings and investment. With 54 percent of private sector workers employed outside of corporations, individual rates also define the incentives for job-creating businesses. Lower marginal tax rates secure for all Americans the economic gains from tax reform.

Make permanent, across-the-board 20 percent cut in marginal rates
Maintain current tax rates on interest, dividends, and capital gains
Eliminate taxes for taxpayers with AGI below $200,000 on interest, dividends, and capital gains
Eliminate the Death Tax
Repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

Corporate Taxes

The U.S. economy’s 35 percent corporate tax rate is among the highest in the industrial world, reducing the ability of our nation’s businesses to compete in the global economy and to invest and create jobs at home. By limiting investment and growth, the high rate of corporate tax also hurts U.S. wages.

Cut the corporate rate to 25 percent
Strengthen and make permanent the R&D tax credit
Switch to a territorial tax system
Repeal the corporate Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

I ask again, how are tax cuts going to generate jobs? The rich in this country have had their taxes cut by more than 50% over the last twenty years. Where are the jobs? Why is it going to work this time, when it hasn't before? As Ben Stein tried to point out on Fox & Friends last week, "Evidence shows that there's no clear connection between the level of taxation and the level of economic activity."

[Rohirrim]

This thread should be retitled, ECONOMICS ILLITERACY AND CLASS BAITING 101 with a supplemental lab course of UNSOURCED CLAIMS AND STRAWMEN AS FACT.

Golf clap of the day issued.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2zqg1t1.gif

Clumsy deflection and more hysteria.

[Garcia Bronco]

Conservatives make intuitive judgements about things like "human behavior" that sound seductively plausible, but which the data often does not support. The "invisible hand" in economics is a perfect example of this.

Would you prefer the word Psychology?

[BroncoInferno]

As Ben Stein tried to point out on Fox & Friends last week, "Evidence shows that there's no clear connection between the level of taxation and the level of economic activity."

And Stein's a former Nixon aid, FFS.

[Garcia Bronco]

I ask again, how are tax cuts going to generate jobs? The rich in this country have had their taxes cut by more than 50% over the last twenty years. Where are the jobs? Why is it going to work this time, when it hasn't before? As Ben Stein tried to point out on Fox & Friends last week, "Evidence shows that there's no clear connection between the level of taxation and the level of economic activity."

Tax cuts on the the corporate tax rates and many file personally for their business will help businesses make better business assumptions and create a climate that is conducive to business and add more tax payers to the pool. Thus creating more revenue.

So you think taxes should go up or stay the same for businesses and individuals?

Business in this country cannot make business assumptions. Ergo, with an inability to make good business assumptions they hold on to capital that could be used to grow their business and create jobs.

[Rohirrim]

http://www.bartcop.com/buffett-trickle-4.jpg

I was surprised to learn that supply side economics is not a modern phenomenon. It's been around the block a few times, under a few names, but it's basically the idea that tax cuts create jobs. It seems the rich in every era think they are taxed too much and if only the rest of society would give them tax breaks, they would create jobs. Of course, it's never worked. You might be interested to know that Will Rogers is the one who came up with the name "trickle down" economics. John Kenneth Galbraith said that when trickle down was tried in the 1890s, it was called "horse and sparrow" economics due to the fact that, "If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows." He also stated that the adoption of trickle down economics, (or whatever you want to call it) was the cause of the Panic of 1896.

Romney's tax plan is more trickle down economics. I guess they should put a label on it: Use at your own risk.

[Rohirrim]

Tax cuts on the the corporate tax rates and many file personally for their business will help businesses make better business assumptions and create a climate that is conducive to business and add more tax payers to the pool. Thus creating more revenue.

So you think taxes should go up or stay the same for businesses and individuals?

Business in this country cannot make business assumptions. Ergo, with an inability to make good business assumptions they hold on to capital that could be used to grow their business and create jobs.

You're right. We shouldn't go by assumptions. We should go by evidence. I say we take that period of time in American history where the most Americans across the board were doing the best economically, and we set the tax rates as they were then.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Not 54 views, it's 54 people clicking on the thread and thinking, " I'm not going to waste my time reading this crap".

You're right - he should have posted the message in the form of a cartoon.

Then it would have left an indelible impression, and the right-wing chimps on this board would still be thinking about it years from now. :wave:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Clumsy deflection and more hysteria.

EpicDramaNyuk's stock in trade.

[Rohirrim]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_GC1KvZIJhA/UDExLx6hCnI/AAAAAAAADJg/OIyoDqRyEvc/s400/1G++pic.jpg

[Jetmeck]

He's going to try and lower tax rates by 20 percent across the board. not jsut on the "Rich" who you've yet to define.


He can't pay for it as numerous studies have shown and the rich don't need another hand out. Trickle down makes the rich, richer and doesn't create jobs................

Are you dumb or dumber.....I get confused with all you tards.

[Vegas_Bronco]

So the agenda is to create more tax for the rich spiraling this nation into 3rd world currency and creating more federal govt oversight...YOU ARE CONFUSING ECONOMICS AND PERCENTAGES WITH A PRESIDENT WHO DOESNT CARE...obama care, really? That was his answer to our current economic slide??

The problen is that too many Americans believe they are owed...this isnt the kiddie soccer league...we dont hand out trophies for showing up. Its time to go back to work...work like your grandfather did...instead we have a man leading this country into a slow complacent crowd looking for more handouts.

[Vegas_Bronco]

http://constitutionalteaparty.com/Images/Obama%20BrokeBank%20Mountain.jpg

[BroncoInferno]

Tax cuts on the the corporate tax rates and many file personally for their business will help businesses make better business assumptions and create a climate that is conducive to business and add more tax payers to the pool. Thus creating more revenue.

So you think taxes should go up or stay the same for businesses and individuals?

Business in this country cannot make business assumptions. Ergo, with an inability to make good business assumptions they hold on to capital that could be used to grow their business and create jobs.

This post is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say that conservatives rely on "intuitive judgements." That all sounds well and good, but where's your supporting data? As Ro pointed out, the data is pretty clear that tax cuts for the wealthy do not trickle down, nor do they lead to job growth. Where are the jobs from the Bush tax cuts? Why didn't the wealth trickle down? The data is pretty conclusive....supply side has been tried and failed. And, yet, a lot of people want to go down that road again.

[maher_tyler]

Hmmm. 54 views and no responses? :kiddingme

We've heard it all from both sides. In reality, neither guy is going to fix our problems. Not even close..its going to be sad when/if Romney gets elected and doesn't fix a damn thing. Same goes for Obama! They never focus on the real issues of why this country is going to hell in a hand basket. Border control/getting the illegals out entirely, leagalizing Marijuana, WAY less spending on military. It is the gov't job to DEFEND us. It is the Department of DEFENSE not offense. The title is correct, it is simple but no one has the balls to come out and say it. None of the repubs or Dems at least. Ron Paul, Gary Johnson and a few others have been saying it. No one will listen.

[ScottXray]

30 years of trickle down has resulted in the loss of millions of jobs,
and the relative destruction of Americas middle class. Both parties were
compliant in this, but only one seems to have realised that it DOESN"T work.

The transfer of wealth to the top 1-2% over the last 30 years and what they have done with those increases should be an indicator to anyone as to where
those policies lead....(for Example....Mexico, a country that has the bulk of the wealth in the hands of the elite few, and they own almost all the assets and land. A wage slave type middle class that has little possibility of upward mobility.)

The "job creators" of small and medium small companies do have a bitch
( correctly ) that the income taxes in the country are too high, and that is
impeding job creation. However, Lowering the corporate rate is not the only solution. A tax credit for new jobs and hiring (in this country ONLY) is a way to incentivise the small businesses that are hit hard by the tax structure as is. Lowering the corporate rate across the board just allows the furthering of outsourcing, and the wrong way transfer of wealth. Obamas plan to incentivise job creation through credits for those businesses is better than the overall cut that Romney touts, because it limits the credits to companies that create jobs here.

A tax cut for all businesses would be allright...if an alternative Minimum tax on businesses was also implemented to make sure that large businesses also pay their fair share of taxes, along with the job creation tax credits.

The stock market has recovered almost ALL of the losses of 2007-8, yet no one seems to recognise that fact. The Economy IS improving already ( albeit slowly), and the republicans hate the fact that the public is starting to see it.

[baja]

Mexico's middle class has been growing for the last 20 years. Mexico is a very different place than portrayed in the US media in regards to both the middle class culture and the extent of the drug cartel problem. Far from perfect though.