Mormon Oath of Vengence against USA...real or bs?

[Irish Stout]

Just watched the below video detailing a little bit about the church of latter day saints. Could some of our Mormon friends on the omane educate me... particularly on this oath of vengeance against the American people... this cant be completely true...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udew9axmdM&sns=fb

[Irish Stout]

Ok, now that I have a computer, I did a little more research into this and it looks like the LDS Church stopped the Oath of Vengeance around 1927. I'd still be curious to learn more about this or to hear some perspective from those more in the "know."

Posting a video like this makes me feel a bit like I am working off the ridiculous, like those "birthers" who try and post everything they can that Obama is anti-American. On the other hand, I just don't have a great understanding or working knowledge of the Mormon religion... which seems strange considering it is a very American religion. Some of the things, like secret handshakes and special underwear, seem to be the quirks that go along with every religion (Catholics, like me, eat our Lord and Savior every time we go to church). Other things, like believing all mormons can become a "god," or being able to baptize someone post-mortem and without the body into the Church, seem a little bit odder.

Interesting still, seeing a spy cam video taken within the inner sanctuary of the LDS temple.

[Rohirrim]

I know there are some Mormons on this site, Kaylor and Dom Casual for two, and they're voting for Romney. Maybe a part of their vote is determined by their common religion. I voted for Rocky Anderson, who also happens to be a Mormon. All I can say is, my Mormon is better than yours. ;D

[Rohirrim]

That's a fun video. Not being religious myself, that one looks about as silly as all the rest of them. I mean, the Jews kneel in front of a wall with a little box on their heads and ringlet sideburns, chanting for atonement. The Muslims travel for thousands of miles to walk in circles around a holy rock. The Catholics crawl on their knees at various sites around the world and keep keep bones fragments in little boxes as holy relics. Hindus bathe in the Ganges. It goes on and on. I guess Scientology is about the most whacked one I can think of. Some alien dropped creatures in volcanoes millions of years ago and their spirits now infest our souls? L. Ron must have been having a real bad case of the DTs to come up with that one. WTF?

[DomCasual]

No, there is nothing to that. I do believe it was a part of an early temple ceremony. But it's so old, there isn't a single person alive who has seen it, personally.

And Roh, Rocky Anderson is a little crazy. I don't think he describes himself as Mormon, these days. He was a popular mayor here. I never got it, though. I always thought he was a few fries short of a Happy Meal. I never got a chance to vote for (against) him - never lived in the Salt Lake City boundaries.

I've voted for lots of non-Republicans in local elections here, over the years. The state desperately needs checks and balances. That said, I think Rocky Anderson only ran as a Democrat for one of his terms, as Mayor. For the second term, I vaguely remember him aligning himself with The Rent is Too Damn Expensive Party, or some crazy thing.

[Irish Stout]

That's a fun video. Not being religious myself, that one looks about as silly as all the rest of them. I mean, the Jews kneel in front of a wall with a little box on their heads and ringlet sideburns, chanting for atonement. The Muslims travel for thousands of miles to walk in circles around a holy rock. The Catholics crawl on their knees at various sites around the world and keep keep bones fragments in little boxes as holy relics. Hindus bathe in the Ganges. It goes on and on. I guess Scientology is about the most whacked one I can think of. Some alien dropped creatures in volcanoes millions of years ago and their spirits now infest our souls? L. Ron must have been having a real bad case of the DTs to come up with that one. WTF?

All valid and excellent points. Again, my religion (which I'm not a devout practitioner of) has a doctrine that essentially makes me a cannibal - and not only that, but a cannibal of the very person we are to revere. So... you know... thats kind of weird if you think about it.

Really the thing that shocked me the most in that video was the reference to the oath of vengeance, which I had never heard of. I wanted to know if that was a real thing or just a bunch of malarkey. Looks like it was real, but an expired doctrine. If it wasn't expired, I would consider it a very important topic to ask governor Romney about, since he has a really good shot of becoming President.

[Irish Stout]

No, there is nothing to that. I do believe it was a part of an early temple ceremony. But it's so old, there isn't a single person alive who has seen it, personally.



Thanks Dom. That is exactly what I was looking for. I now hope this thread can wither off to its own expiration.

[Kaylore]

I cannot comment on what we do in our temple because of sacred covenants I've made there. If you want to find them, they are all out there on the internet.

I CAN comment on what we don't do and you can put this in the "do not do" column. From what I gather it was used but was discontinued in the 20's. You have to remember it was a hold over from a religious people who had be persecuted and litterally had the government issue an extermination order against them that only came off the official books of Missouri in the 70's. For those counting that's fifty years after my church removed their oath. It also means That neither Romney nor his father would have taken this oath. The oaths in the temple are largely representative our commitments to God and deal with things like "Giving your time and talents" to the church "keeping the law of chastity" and "obeying the gospel."

Anyway, as the election tightens, more of this stuff will come out to try and smear Romney any way they can. Lies about my religion are only going to get more bizarre.

[Rohirrim]

No, there is nothing to that. I do believe it was a part of an early temple ceremony. But it's so old, there isn't a single person alive who has seen it, personally.

And Roh, Rocky Anderson is a little crazy. I don't think he describes himself as Mormon, these days. He was a popular mayor here. I never got it, though. I always thought he was a few fries short of a Happy Meal. I never got a chance to vote for (against) him - never lived in the Salt Lake City boundaries.

I've voted for lots of non-Republicans in local elections here, over the years. The state desperately needs checks and balances. That said, I think Rocky Anderson only ran as a Democrat for one of his terms, as Mayor. For the second term, I vaguely remember him aligning himself with The Rent is Too Damn Expensive Party, or some crazy thing.

Well, many people thought Teddy Roosevelt was crazy too. In fact, most populists and/or reformers throughout history have been called crazy at one time or another. I guess that's what happens when you stand up for the underdogs. The establishment tries to smear you.

[Jetland]

don't really need to lie the truths are bizarre enough

[Irish Stout]

Anyway, as the election tightens, more of this stuff will come out to try and smear Romney any way they can. Lies about my religion are only going to get more bizarre.

Thanks Kaylore.

Unfortunately lies about everything seem to come out in political campaigns. This one is particularly bad. I hope my asking didn't seem like accusing. It was something I heard, and felt this was a good place to get a better understanding.

[TonyR]

A Mormon explains why she is voting for Obama:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/18/my-take-hard-truths-matter-im-mormon-and-im-voting-for-obama/?hpt=hp_t2

[Obushma]

A Mormon explains why she is voting for Obama:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/18/my-take-hard-truths-matter-im-mormon-and-im-voting-for-obama/?hpt=hp_t2

It amazes me that any member of the LDS faith could vote for either of these two big government buffoons. The Mormon church and its followers were prosecuted and forced to flee Missouri and head to Utah under fear of death from the federal government...and for any LDS member to think that Romney is actually Celestial, ROFL! making your own personal fortune off your fellow man, while destroying their lives, not very Jesus like. Is hiring a lawyer to change the RNC rules at the last minute, cheat the system to win philosophy Celestial?

Maybe Dom or Kaylore could explain those things to me.

[Bronco Yoda]

My neighbor and friend is Mormon. I prep for disaster with him though not nearly to his extent. But I do hold the big advantage on weapons :) lol... My wife watches another Mormons families kids why she is homeschooling as well some days. Which is very unusual because most Mormons stick to their own. My son's best friend is from another Mormons family. We're all entangled with Them come to think of it. Maybe that's why some people think or just assume we're Mormon for some reason, and we're not even into organized religion.

They are among the very nicest people I know. I always joke with them that I'm their secular Mormon & honorary member when the zombie apocalypse comes.

But from my experience, they are very tight lipped about many things you wouldn't think they would be. Very very secretive. And their missionaries sales pitches are not very (how can i say this nicely) forthright in their actual beliefs. Sort of always reminds me of Scientologists. I talk with a lot of them because my neighbor is retired and heavily involved in Temple and he's a contact for our areas missionaries. It's sometimes hard to hold my giggles in from all their BS. Amazing the level of brainwashing these young people display.

All the Mormons I personally know are treating this election with Romney as a holey calling. A referendum on their very religion and so forth. It is beyond Politics with them at this point. I wonder if it has anything to do with the WHITE HORSE PROPHECIES (google this one). This is why Romney could say and do anything and it wouldn't matter to them really. This is why our Mormon friends here are acting the way they are me thinks.

[BowlenBall]

I cannot comment on what we do in our temple because of sacred covenants I've made there. If you want to find them, they are all out there on the internet.

I CAN comment on what we don't do and you can put this in the "do not do" column. From what I gather it was used but was discontinued in the 20's. You have to remember it was a hold over from a religious people who had be persecuted and litterally had the government issue an extermination order against them that only came off the official books of Missouri in the 70's. For those counting that's fifty years after my church removed their oath. It also means That neither Romney nor his father would have taken this oath. The oaths in the temple are largely representative our commitments to God and deal with things like "Giving your time and talents" to the church "keeping the law of chastity" and "obeying the gospel."

Anyway, as the election tightens, more of this stuff will come out to try and smear Romney any way they can. Lies about my religion are only going to get more bizarre.

A serious question for you, Kaylore -- what percentage of LDS members nationwide do you think will vote for Romney? Do you think the religion thing supercedes party affiliation for Mormon democrats? It's an important question, because according to Wikipedia, there are 6,000,000 LDS members in the USA as of the last census, which could obviously go a long way toward swinging the votes in several states (especially if they incorporate a 'get the vote out' push into the churches).

[Kaylore]

A serious question for you, Kaylore -- what percentage of LDS members nationwide do you think will vote for Romney? Do you think the religion thing supercedes party affiliation for Mormon democrats? It's an important question, because according to Wikipedia, there are 6,000,000 LDS members in the USA as of the last census, which could obviously go a long way toward swinging the votes in several states (especially if they incorporate a 'get the vote out' push into the churches).

It's not cut and dry. Most Mormons are socially conservative: Pro-life, pro censorship, anti-gay marriage (NOT anti-gay. You can be gay and be a member of the church). Things change a bit when it comes to fiscal policy. A large number are more conservative there too. They believe in self-reliance and personal responsibility for your situation. However there is a large church welfare program and many in the church believe we need to dedicate our lives to helping those less fortunate. There are some that believe the Christ-like thing to do to help the poor is more giving programs on a government level the way the Church does at the local level. Look at the Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. He's very pro-life but very fiscally liberal across the board. He's LDS and in good standing with the Church.

Officially, the Church doesn't endorse a candidate. They still haven't. They do encourage people to vote in a generic sense. They have done so this year, but they have not done so with any greater urgency than any other year. I go every week and if things change, I'll let you know. There are some who believe Romney being elected would herald some kind of approval of our religion. I think it may add some mainstream crediblity, but at the end of the day most people voting don't care what religion you are if they like or don't like what you have to say.

I will say, it would be a point of pride if the President and Senate Majority Leader were both LDS, but no more so to me than if they were both named Chris. It says nothing about my relationship with god or anyone else's. I've found what works for me and others have to personally find their place in the universe. I do believe that all the President's of the US feel God's influence, though.

So the short answer is there will be some Mormon's voting for Romney. Colorado has a lot. As to how much that will affect the outcome, it's tough to say.

[BowlenBall]

It's not cut and dry. Most Mormons are socially conservative: Pro-life, pro censorship, anti-gay marriage (NOT anti-gay. You can be gay and be a member of the church). Things change a bit when it comes to fiscal policy. A large number are more conservative there too. They believe in self-reliance and personal responsibility for your situation. However there is a large church welfare program and many in the church believe we need to dedicate our lives to helping those less fortunate. There are some that believe the Christ-like thing to do to help the poor is more giving programs on a government level the way the Church does at the local level. Look at the Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. He's very pro-life but very fiscally liberal across the board. He's LDS and in good standing with the Church.

Officially, the Church doesn't endorse a candidate. They still haven't. They do encourage people to vote in a generic sense. They have done so this year, but they have not done so with any greater urgency than any other year. I go every week and if things change, I'll let you know. There are some who believe Romney being elected would herald some kind of approval of our religion. I think it may add some mainstream crediblity, but at the end of the day most people voting don't care what religion you are if they like or don't like what you have to say.

I will say, it would be a point of pride if the President and Senate Majority Leader were both LDS, but no more so to me than if they were both named Chris. It says nothing about my relationship with god or anyone else's. I've found what works for me and others have to personally find their place in the universe. I do believe that all the President's of the US feel God's influence, though.

So the short answer is there will be some Mormon's voting for Romney. Colorado has a lot. As to how much that will affect the outcome, it's tough to say.

Thanks -- interesting to hear your take on it. I'm actually taken aback to hear that Romney doesn't have an official church endorsement! Seems to me that the church leadership would be ecstatic if he won....

According to this link (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/pew-survey-most-mormons-feel-they-are-misunderstood-not-viewed-as-mainstream/), 74% of Mormons are republican-leaning. However, if there are 6 million LDS members in total in the states, that means that there are 1.5 million who are not republican-leaning, and mobilizing their vote (especially in swing states like Colorado) could have a significant impact on the election. Seems to be a significant voting block that may vote in an unpredictable way on November 6th, and is somewhat analogous to the black vote for Obama.

[Kaylore]

Thanks -- interesting to hear your take on it. I'm actually taken aback to hear that Romney doesn't have an official church endorsement! Seems to me that the church leadership would be ecstatic if he won....

According to this link (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/pew-survey-most-mormons-feel-they-are-misunderstood-not-viewed-as-mainstream/), 74% of Mormons are republican-leaning. However, if there are 6 million LDS members in total in the states, that means that there are 1.5 million who are not republican-leaning, and mobilizing their vote (especially in swing states like Colorado) could have a significant impact on the election. Seems to be a significant voting block that may vote in an unpredictable way on November 6th, and is somewhat analogous to the black vote for Obama.

Don't forget some of those may be members who haven't been to church in years, or were baptized in their youth but stopped going as teens and are now adults and barely remember anything about the church, let alone care if Romney is Mormon or not. You can be a good Mormon and vote Democrat or Republican. Some conservatives may be mad at Romney about his previous stance on abortion. Some liberal Mormons may see Romney as someone who doesn't care about helping the poor enough. It's not cut and dry and I would expect the same amount of gain from that group that I would a Catholic candidate would get from the Catholic groups: It wouldn't be a reason NOT to vote for him, but you better have something to say after that.

[BowlenBall]

Don't forget some of those may be members who haven't been to church in years, or were baptized in their youth but stopped going as teens and are now adults and barely remember anything about the church, let alone care if Romney is Mormon or not. You can be a good Mormon and vote Democrat or Republican. Some conservatives may be mad at Romney about his previous stance on abortion. Some liberal Mormons may see Romney as someone who doesn't care about helping the poor enough. It's not cut and dry and I would expect the same amount of gain from that group that I would a Catholic candidate would get from the Catholic groups: It wouldn't be a reason NOT to vote for him, but you better have something to say after that.

Again, very interesting -- I thought you'd be a much more homogenous, monolithic voting block. (for example, I'm betting a muslim candidate would pull 95% of the muslim vote, regardless of party).

Out of curiousity, do you personally know any LDS members who will be voting for Obama?

[Kaylore]

Again, very interesting -- I thought you'd be a much more homogenous, monolithic voting block. (for example, I'm betting a muslim candidate would pull 95% of the muslim vote, regardless of party).

Out of curiousity, do you personally know any LDS members who will be voting for Obama?

My Mom.

[BowlenBall]

My Mom.

Are you gonna disown her?

[Kaylore]

Are you gonna disown her?

lol no. She also voted for Perot and is thinking third part for some local elections. She's definitely her own woman.

[mhgaffney]

I know there are some Mormons on this site, Kaylor and Dom Casual for two, and they're voting for Romney. Maybe a part of their vote is determined by their common religion. I voted for Rocky Anderson, who also happens to be a Mormon. All I can say is, my Mormon is better than yours. ;D

For once I agree with Ro.

Just goes to show -- there are Mormons and there are Mormons.

Not all are macho jerks like Kaylore.

MHG

[Bronco Yoda]

Again, very interesting -- I thought you'd be a much more homogenous, monolithic voting block. (for example, I'm betting a muslim candidate would pull 95% of the muslim vote, regardless of party).

Out of curiousity, do you personally know any LDS members who will be voting for Obama?


You don't actually believe this do you? Romney will get the same percentage of votes from Mormons as Obama got from the Black population last election.

Don't try and Bull**** us Kaylore. I see nothing wrong with voting for your own. Just be honest about it.

[Kaylore]

First, I'm flattered Gaffney thinks I'm Macho. :haw!:

Second. Being Mormon isn't the same as being Black, Yoda. I would find that offensive if I was black, but whatever. Also, Blacks are overwhelmingly Democrat and Barack is a Democrat. I'm sure there are some conservative blacks who voted for Obama because of what it would mean for their demographic, but if you think Romney is going win 90-95% of the Mormon vote, you're out of your mind. I wish that were true, but it isn't. Just like if this was a race between a black Republican and a white Democrat, the Republican wouldn't get 90% of the vote just by being black.

Thanks for helping show how overly simple you view things.

[Bronco Yoda]

Spare us your fake indignation and false equivalences . You are really out of touch if you think most people will buy this crap. You're being over defensive and it shows.

[DomCasual]

It amazes me that any member of the LDS faith could vote for either of these two big government buffoons. The Mormon church and its followers were prosecuted and forced to flee Missouri and head to Utah under fear of death from the federal government...and for any LDS member to think that Romney is actually Celestial, ROFL! making your own personal fortune off your fellow man, while destroying their lives, not very Jesus like. Is hiring a lawyer to change the RNC rules at the last minute, cheat the system to win philosophy Celestial?

Maybe Dom or Kaylore could explain those things to me.

Okay, I'll take a shot at this.

I don't know of anyone who thinks Romney is celestial, or divinely called. Some here might not believe that - but whatever. I can't remember if it was you that mentioned that you couldn't believe the LDS Church hadn't publicly endorsed him? The fact is that the church rarely publicly endorses anyone or anything in politics. There are rare exceptions, when they feel an issue has significant negative ramifications on essential church doctrine. For reasons most non-Mormons don't understand (and lots of actual members - myself included - don't agree with), Prop 8 was one of those rare issues. There has never been a single candidate, for any office, that has received an official LDS Church endorsement, in my lifetime. The LDS Church's instructions on politics are the same in every election: educate yourself, and vote your conscience - just make sure you do vote!

As for Romney himself, I like him for lots of reasons; but I would have been more bullish for another LDS candidate, Jon Huntsman, had I thought he had a realistic chance of getting the nomination. I'll explain why I like Romney; but I'm beyond debating anyone here about it. I've done that, and it's a waste of time (I've actually mostly avoided this place, for the past month).

First and foremost, I love Romney's business background. I am a business owner, and I feel Romney represents my interests more than any Presidential candidate in my adult life.

But that aside - your question seemed to center more on the religious aspect of my opinion of Romney. I'll admit that I obviously love his religious background - but not necessarily just because he's, like me, a Mormon. It's more because I know what kinds of experiences he had having served as a Bishop and Stake President for the LDS Church. This is not like some pastor deciding to run for President. At probably the busiest time of his secular career, he accepted a job that took an extra 30-50 hours per week of his time, knowing full well that he wouldn't make a single dollar for it. Especially as a Bishop, he had to deal with issues that required compassion and real-life problem-solving skills - probably nearly every day of the five years that he was Bishop. I won't go through the things that every Bishop has to do - there are countless articles about it, specifically as it relates to Romney. But people who say that money is the only thing that motivates Romney clearly don't understand him. I would be shocked if any President has ever spent more hours of their lives working for no financial return, than has Romney.

Obviously, those experiences don't qualify him to be President. But they add a unique layer to what I believe is an otherwise already-talented man. If he wasn't LDS, and I was given the choice of him or Obama, I would still vote for him, without question. The fact that I can relate to him because of personal experiences I have in the LDS Church strengthens my comfort level with him.

The bottom line is that he is a much more complicated man than the robot many believe him to be.

[Kaylore]

Spare us your fake indignation and false equivalences . You are really out of touch if you think most people will buy this crap. You're being over defensive and it shows.

You're the one making false equivalences. There are democrat Mormons. You're the one out of touch if you think just being Mormon is enough vote for someone. I wouldn't vote for Harry Reid if someone held a gun to my head. My Mom is LDS and is voting for Obama.

But please continue to talk about black people and Mormon's like you are an expert when you are neither.

[Bronco Yoda]

BTW, I don't think the Mormon voting block will matter all that much in the states that will matter. And I repeat I see no problem with voting for your own. It is what it is. Let's not make it out ugly anyone.

I do think the Bible belt evangelicals will however make a difference. Romney got a huge boost from Billy Graham.

Billy Graham's organization removes Mormonism from its list of cults
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57535071/billy-grahams-organization-removes-mormonism-its-list-of-cults/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/billy-graham-involved-in-2012-elections_n_2004023.html

[Bronco Yoda]

You're the one making false equivalences. There are democrat Mormons. You're the one out of touch if you think just being Mormon is enough vote for someone. I wouldn't vote for Harry Reid if someone held a gun to my head. My Mom is LDS and is voting for Obama.

But please continue to talk about black people and Mormon's like you are an expert when you are neither.

I didn't say there were or were not Mormon democrats. You should run for office.

[DomCasual]

Again, very interesting -- I thought you'd be a much more homogenous, monolithic voting block. (for example, I'm betting a muslim candidate would pull 95% of the muslim vote, regardless of party).

Out of curiousity, do you personally know any LDS members who will be voting for Obama?

I actually personally know lots. I really do. For one thing, I personally know Joanna Brooks. She did an article for CNN just a few days ago, explaining why she was a Mormon voting for Obama. You can read it here (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/18/my-take-hard-truths-matter-im-mormon-and-im-voting-for-obama/?iref=allsearch), if you're interested. Also, one of my favorite recent leaders of the church, James E. Faust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_E._Faust), was a lifelong Democrat. When he died, he was in the LDS Church's First Presidency - the LDS Church's highest level of leadership.

But look at it this way. Utah has never, to my knowledge, had their electoral votes go to a Democratic candidate for President. If this election was, say, Harry Reid (an active Mormon) versus, say, Chris Christie, the overwhelming majority of Mormon votes would go for Christie. Of that, I have absolutely no doubt.

So, does Romney's religion play into it? Sure. Of course it does. But is it the only factor - or even the predominant factor? It isn't. Most Mormons just vote Republican.

[baja]

That's a fun video. Not being religious myself, that one looks about as silly as all the rest of them. I mean, the Jews kneel in front of a wall with a little box on their heads and ringlet sideburns, chanting for atonement. The Muslims travel for thousands of miles to walk in circles around a holy rock. The Catholics crawl on their knees at various sites around the world and keep keep bones fragments in little boxes as holy relics. Hindus bathe in the Ganges. It goes on and on. I guess Scientology is about the most whacked one I can think of. Some alien dropped creatures in volcanoes millions of years ago and their spirits now infest our souls? L. Ron must have been having a real bad case of the DTs to come up with that one. WTF?

You might enjoy the film "Master" based on the early life of L. Ron Hubbard. Don't know how factual it is but I can tell you it has some of the best acting I have seen in years. Joaquin Phoenix is riveting and Philip Seymour Hoffman is first rate. They play off each other like few ever have. If all were fair in Hollywood they would get best actor and best supporting actor for this work.

[Rohirrim]

You might enjoy the film "Master" based on the early life of L. Ron Hubbard. Don't know how factual it is but I can tell you it has some of the best acting I have seen in years. Joaquin Phoenix is riveting and Philip Seymour Hoffman is first rate. They play off each other like few ever have. If all were fair in Hollywood they would get best actor and best supporting actor for this work.

Yeah. That's on my list. I can't wait to see it.

[Obushma]

Okay, I'll take a shot at this.

I don't know of anyone who thinks Romney is celestial, or divinely called. Some here might not believe that - but whatever. I can't remember if it was you that mentioned that you couldn't believe the LDS Church hadn't publicly endorsed him? The fact is that the church rarely publicly endorses anyone or anything in politics. There are rare exceptions, when they feel an issue has significant negative ramifications on essential church doctrine. For reasons most non-Mormons don't understand (and lots of actual members - myself included - don't agree with), Prop 8 was one of those rare issues. There has never been a single candidate, for any office, that has received an official LDS Church endorsement, in my lifetime. The LDS Church's instructions on politics are the same in every election: educate yourself, and vote your conscience - just make sure you do vote!

As for Romney himself, I like him for lots of reasons; but I would have been more bullish for another LDS candidate, Jon Huntsman, had I thought he had a realistic chance of getting the nomination. I'll explain why I like Romney; but I'm beyond debating anyone here about it. I've done that, and it's a waste of time (I've actually mostly avoided this place, for the past month).

First and foremost, I love Romney's business background. I am a business owner, and I feel Romney represents my interests more than any Presidential candidate in my adult life.

But that aside - your question seemed to center more on the religious aspect of my opinion of Romney. I'll admit that I obviously love his religious background - but not necessarily just because he's, like me, a Mormon. It's more because I know what kinds of experiences he had having served as a Bishop and Stake President for the LDS Church. This is not like some pastor deciding to run for President. At probably the busiest time of his secular career, he accepted a job that took an extra 30-50 hours per week of his time, knowing full well that he wouldn't make a single dollar for it. Especially as a Bishop, he had to deal with issues that required compassion and real-life problem-solving skills - probably nearly every day of the five years that he was Bishop. I won't go through the things that every Bishop has to do - there are countless articles about it, specifically as it relates to Romney. But people who say that money is the only thing that motivates Romney clearly don't understand him. I would be shocked if any President has ever spent more hours of their lives working for no financial return, than has Romney.

Obviously, those experiences don't qualify him to be President. But they add a unique layer to what I believe is an otherwise already-talented man. If he wasn't LDS, and I was given the choice of him or Obama, I would still vote for him, without question. The fact that I can relate to him because of personal experiences I have in the LDS Church strengthens my comfort level with him.

The bottom line is that he is a much more complicated man than the robot many believe him to be.

Thanks for the respone Dom.

I'm not LDS but was raised LDS in Utah. I think Kaylore is being a bit disingenuous, or doesnt follow church doctrine. The quote from PoGP, about the constitution hanging by a thread, and a member of the lds faith running for President to save it...that has to lay heavily on the LDS vote.

[nyuk nyuk]

This would be a PERFECT time for our liberal moral torchbearers to call this thread bigoted and xenophobic.

Unsurprisingly, they aren't. White conservative Mormon = legitimate target.

So I'll rephrase the thread title into something that will upset the moral (im)balance to make a point:

Muslim Oath of Vengence against USA...real or bs?

[barryr]

This would be a PERFECT time for our liberal moral torchbearers to call this thread bigoted and xenophobic.

Unsurprisingly, they aren't. White conservative Mormon = legitimate target.

So I'll rephrase the thread title into something that will upset the moral (im)balance to make a point:

Muslim Oath of Vengence against USA...real or bs?

Great point, but they just aren't capable of getting it. They claim to support rights for minorities and women and opportunities for them, but there doesn't exist a minority republican or woman republican they haven't vilified and demeaned.

[nyuk nyuk]

Great point, but they just aren't capable of getting it. They claim to support rights for minorities and women and opportunities for them, but there doesn't exist a minority republican or woman republican they haven't vilified and demeaned.

No, because as much as they claim to have consistent moral standards, when push comes to shove they align according to definitions set forth by radical Left social theorists who claim that "only whites/Christians" are racists or are capable of religious shenanigans. Again it is a matter of Critical Theory and its offshoots. Marxian class conflict theory applied to race relations, in which a false dichotomy of oppressor/demon vs victim/angel class is posited, but here in racial terms. One of the main ideological grandfathers of this pseudo-science is the (thankfully) deceased Derrick Bell who Obama is seen on YouTube introducing to a crowd of naive Useful Idiots and referring to in glowing terms. (Every single effort in courts by Bell and his looney bin followers has been shot down.)

"Speaking the truth!" straight from the asshole's mouth --

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qirsDdFEIgs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Rohirrim]

No, because as much as they claim to have consistent moral standards, when push comes to shove they align according to definitions set forth by radical Left social theorists who claim that "only whites/Christians" are racists or are capable of religious shenanigans. Again it is a matter of Critical Theory and its offshoots. Marxian class conflict theory applied to race relations, in which a false dichotomy of oppressor/demon vs victim/angel class is posited, but here in racial terms. One of the main ideological grandfathers of this pseudo-science is the (thankfully) deceased Derrick Bell who Obama is seen on YouTube introducing to a crowd of naive Useful Idiots and referring to in glowing terms. (Every single effort in courts by Bell and his looney bin followers has been shot down.)



Once more. In English.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This would be a PERFECT time for our liberal moral torchbearers to call this thread bigoted and xenophobic.

Unsurprisingly, they aren't. White conservative Mormon = legitimate target.



According to NyukDramaLlama's reasoning, pointing out bigotry and/or xenophobia is itself an act of bigotry or xenophobia.

NyukDramaLlama is the brightest bulb in the chandelier and an 'A' student in Ethics......said no one ever.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Once more. In English.

The Texican-to-English translation is....

;)

[Kaylore]

Is Nyuk Nyuk really Angry llama?

[DomCasual]

Is Nyuk Nyuk really Angry llama?

He says no. In fact, he says he's a she. Who knows?

I don't think I ever heard the story about why AngryLlama left. Was he banned? Did he lose a bet? Did he get arrested for stalking Mark Cuban?

[Rohirrim]

Is Nyuk Nyuk really Angry llama?

I'm not sure. I guess not. ???

They sure sound alike.

[BroncoInferno]

He says no. In fact, he says he's a she. Who knows?

I don't think I ever heard the story about why AngryLlama left. Was he banned? Did he lose a bet? Did he get arrested for stalking Mark Cuban?

The last time he posted was accusing Khan of hating Tebow because he isn't Mormon. That was back in January, I think. Then, he disappeared and hasn't returned (at least not under the old handle).

[TonyR]

Just to stir the pot a little...

Imagine for a moment that Barack Obama had never attended Jeremiah Wright's church in Chicago and had decided to attend services, and proselytize for, a black separatist, nationalist church that refused to allow whites to participate in crucial religious services because white people had been condemned by God for their iniquity in the ancient past and had been for ever marked white so black Americans would know instantly to keep their distance. In fact, the definition of white in this black supremacist church was just one drop of white blood in a black person. It was Nazi-like in its racist precision and exclusion. Whites were denied the rites that made a person a full member of the church. Even blacks with a tiny strain of white DNA were kept from full participation.

Imagine further that backing this racist church was not a youthful folly on Obama's part, but a profound commitment - that he went on a mission abroad to convert Christians to a new religion based on black racial supremacy, and has often said that the most important thing in his entire life to this day is a church whose sacred scripture declares white people to be cursed by God for their past sins - and the sign of this curse is their white skin.

A simple question: Do you think this issue would not come up in a general election or a primary? If Obama was subjected to news cycle after news cycle of clips of Obama's actual former pastor, Jeremiah Wright, can you imagine the outrage if Obama had actually been a part of a black supremacist church - that denied whites equal access to the sacraments - for over a decade in his adult life?

I raise this because it is a fact that Mitt Romney belonged to a white supremacist church for 31 years of his life, went on a mission to convert Christians and Jews and others to this church, which retained white supremacy as a doctrine until 1978 - decades after Brown vs Board of Education, and a decade after the end of the anti-miscegenation laws.

Read the whole thing here: http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/religion-race-and-double-standards.html

[Kaylore]

Just to stir the pot a little...



Read the whole thing here: http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/religion-race-and-double-standards.html

Yes. All Mormons = White supremacists. You're disgusting.

[BroncoInferno]

Yes. All Mormons = White supremacists. You're disgusting.

That's not what the article said. The official doctrine of the church was an (arguably) white supremist position up until 1978. Romney was a member of the church and did his missionary work while that doctrine was still in place. The point isn't really about Romney...I don't think Romney's a white supremist nor do I think Sullivan (or TonyR) suggest such. It's simply an illustration to show the different standards being applied. The Rev. Wright thing got beaten to death even though there was no evidence that Obama agreed with Wright's provactive statements. So, why isn't anyone going over this stuff with a fine-tooth comb when it comes to Romney (and other candidates)?

[TonyR]

Yes. All Mormons = White supremacists. You're disgusting.

LOL Overreact much? Nowhere did I say any such thing, and neither did the author of the piece (which you probably didn't read in its entirety for context) I linked. I think maybe you missed the point. If Obama was the member of a church that had "black supremacy" roots, do you think it would be brought up as an issue at all? I'm thinking it might.

You also may have missed my "stirring the pot" comment. I'll consider yours stirred.

[TonyR]

^ Exactly, Inferno. You stated my case better than I did!

[Kaylore]

That's not what the article said. The official doctrine of the church was an (arguably) white supremist position up until 1978. Romney was a member of the church and did his missionary work while that doctrine was still in place. The point isn't really about Romney...I don't think Romney's a white supremist nor do I think Sullivan (or TonyR) suggest such. It's simply an illustration to show the different standards being applied. The Rev. Wright thing got beaten to death even though there was no evidence that Obama agreed with Wright's provactive statements. So, why isn't anyone going over this stuff with a fine-tooth comb when it comes to Romney (and other candidates)?

Excuse me, anyone who was Mormon before 1978 = white supremacist.

It's total crap. They didn't allow black members to hold the priesthood, but they could participate in all the ordinances in the church. That's like saying any church that doesn't allow female clergy hates all women.

Sorry, the comparison is bogus. White Supremacy - the idea of segregation and even extermination of non-whites is not even in the same hemisphere as restricting clerical responsibilities within a church.

By that logic, all Catholics are "male supremacists."

[Vegas_Bronco]

Food for thought: any one of our founding fathers would have already taken out vengance on our current idea of government. What strikes me is that ppl are judged on how they make a living instead of the qualities that resulted in that success. If you dont believe the rules of the game are the same for all, you dont know what hard work is or how to rise after a fall. Vote Romney and allow yourself the personal pride of truly earning what you deserve...there is no replacement for personal acheivement and success (even when the world or culture you live in has it emphasized in all the wrong ways.)

This is a very clear choice for those that understand the differences btwn these two men.

[Kaylore]

He says no. In fact, he says he's a she. Who knows?

I don't think I ever heard the story about why AngryLlama left. Was he banned? Did he lose a bet? Did he get arrested for stalking Mark Cuban?

He accused me of being a religious bigot. He said I hate Christians and my hatred of Christians in general is why I was down on Tebow. I asked him to provide evidence of this and his last post was something to the effect of "if I agree, will you leave me alone?" and I agreed. He was never seen again. I like to imagine he's still combing through all my old posts looking for some sign I hate Christians.

[BroncoInferno]

Excuse me, anyone who was Mormon before 1978 = white supremacist.

It's total crap. They didn't allow black members to hold the priesthood, but they could participate in all the ordinances in the church. That's like saying any church that doesn't allow female clergy hates all women.

Sorry, the comparison is bogus. White Supremacy - the idea of segregation and even extermination of non-whites is not even in the same hemisphere as restricting clerical responsibilities within a church.

By that logic, all Catholics are "male supremacists."

Khan, you're still missing the point. I'm AGREEING with you that Romney isn't a white supremacist. The point is that when it was Obama's crazy preacher spouting off, that was viewed by many as a reflection on him even though there isn't any evidence that he agreed, yet no one is making a peep about the religious backgrounds of other candidates.

And, anyway, I'm sorry, but yes, disallowing blacks from being clergyman was absolutely racist, which I'm sure is why the church corrected it (to their credit). And it's also clear misogyny on part of the Catholic Church to disallow women from serving as preists. Sullivan could have used that as an example to illustrate his point as well.

[TonyR]

They didn't allow black members to hold the priesthood...

Agree with BI that neither Romney, nor Mormons in general, are "white supremacists". But there's more to the story than you're letting on.

Here's Brigham Young:

...Cain slew his brother . . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. . . . How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed...

...Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so...
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/curseofcain_part2.htm

Again, the point is that if Obama's church had any such element in its past it would be a huge story. In Romney's case it isn't even on the radar, not that it should be.

[El Minion]

Yes. All Mormons = White supremacists. You're disgusting.

No actually Mormon church doctrine is disgusting. Mormon's hold blacks in low regard, hence this comment by Romney's son. Imagine the Republican hysterics if Malia or Sasha said anything remotely similar. Has Romney even repudiated the Mormon doctrine on blacks, did he even support or condone it before 1978 (or after)?


"Jump out of your seat and you want to rush down to the stage and take a swing at [Obama]," Tagg Romney

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2012/10/22/22/enhanced-buzz-23996-1350959905-4.jpg

[Rohirrim]

Food for thought: any one of our founding fathers would have already taken out vengance on our current idea of government. What strikes me is that ppl are judged on how they make a living instead of the qualities that resulted in that success. If you dont believe the rules of the game are the same for all, you dont know what hard work is or how to rise after a fall. Vote Romney and allow yourself the personal pride of truly earning what you deserve...there is no replacement for personal acheivement and success (even when the world or culture you live in has it emphasized in all the wrong ways.)

This is a very clear choice for those that understand the differences btwn these two men.

Obama was raised in a single parent household and earned his way to Harvard. That must have taken some hard work, don't you think?

[Cito Pelon]

Well, if God had ever actually talked to us instead of some charismatic people claiming God talked to THEM, I'd believe in God.

The fact is it's you and your band of like-minded people against them and their band of like-minded people.

You can throw into the mix whoever created the Universe doesn't really give a damn what you do, just wants to see competition.

[DomCasual]

No actually Mormon church doctrine is disgusting. Mormon's hold blacks in low regard, hence this comment by Romney's son. Imagine the Republican hysterics if Malia or Sasha said anything remotely similar. Has Romney even repudiated the Mormon doctrine on blacks, did he even support or condone it before 1978 (or after)?


"Jump out of your seat and you want to rush down to the stage and take a swing at [Obama]," Tagg Romney


So, you're saying that Romney's son's motivation for that comment was because of the color of Obama's skin?

You're just trolling on this, right? I mean, you have to be just trolling.

[broncocalijohn]

BTW, talking about voting for your own, Tom Osborne, after retiring from Nebraska football, took in 83% of the vote in his congressional district at his first run at politics. I dont care how conservative your area is, that is a huge win.

"He was coach of Nebraska and I am a liberal but I got to vote for Tom!"
That is their state's celebrity.

[Kaylore]

Agree with BI that neither Romney, nor Mormons in general, are "white supremacists". But there's more to the story than you're letting on.

Here's Brigham Young:


http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/curseofcain_part2.htm

Again, the point is that if Obama's church had any such element in its past it would be a huge story. In Romney's case it isn't even on the radar, not that it should be.

Brigham Young isn't the head of the Church anymore and hasn't been for 135 years. There were a lot of racially incorrect views had by everyone back then.

If Obama was a member of a Church that made exclusions based on sex, race or what have you, would it be used against him? Probably just as under the table there is a lot of attacks about Romney's faith going around. However I don't think either party would try to find much traction on the issue. The primary concern is the economy and polls show by and large, the overwhelming majority of Americans don't really care who you worship. Some do, most do not.

[mhgaffney]

Brigham Young isn't the head of the Church anymore and hasn't been for 135 years. There were a lot of racially incorrect views had by everyone back then.


The problem is much more serious, however. The racism that plagued Mormonism is actually explicit in the Book of Mormon -- which is supposed to be a divinely inspired book.

I was shocked to read how G-d punished one tribe (that wasn't sufficiently bloodthirsty) by turning their skin black.

This shows the human fingerprint that cooked up this so called holy book. I don't claim -- like some -- that all of the Bible is divinely inspired. It isn't. There are human fingerprints in the Bible too. But parts of it are sublime and arguably were divinely inspired.

The Book of Mormon is a fake scripture -- cooked up for whatever purpose by one or more old lechers.

Also -- the Book of Mormon is supposedly cross referenced with the Bible. But I checked many of these references and they are total bs. The connections are fake.

I have known Mormons that are excellent people. The fact remains, the Book of Mormon is a fake religious text. This makes Mormonism the weirdest religion I have ever encountered.

How can you base a religion on a cooked up holy book?

Seriously...

MHG

[Cito Pelon]

Brigham Young isn't the head of the Church anymore and hasn't been for 135 years. There were a lot of racially incorrect views had by everyone back then.

If Obama was a member of a Church that made exclusions based on sex, race or what have you, would it be used against him? Probably just as under the table there is a lot of attacks about Romney's faith going around. However I don't think either party would try to find much traction on the issue. The primary concern is the economy and polls show by and large, the overwhelming majority of Americans don't really care who you worship. Some do, most do not.

Yep, it's one economic class against a competing ecomomic class, same as always. But religion still comes into play in politics.

[broncocalijohn]

So does Gaffney hate Mormons or just the religion but likes the people?
Gaffney hates:
1) Jews
2) America
3) People who don't have money to buy his books
4) Mormons ?

[El Minion]

Just to stir the pot a little...



Read the whole thing here: http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/religion-race-and-double-standards.html

Speaking of Religion, Race and Double Standards; imagine the moral outrage from Republicans if there where's the equivalent attack on mormons turning christian churches into mormon temples if Romney was elected, or polygamy being allowed; hypocritical bigots :welcome:

Newt’s revolting appeal to voters (http://www.salon.com/2012/10/26/the_political_ad_to_end_all_ads/)
http://media.salon.com/2012/10/gingrich_ad1_rect-460x307.jpg
This new three-minute mini-film from Gingrich's super PAC is the last ad you'll ever need to watch

By Alex Seitz-Wald

Mix together every right-wing fever dream of the Obama era, add some apocalyptic b-roll and epic music, and bake for three minutes in Newt Gingrich-style grandiosity and you get this amazing new ad (http://youtu.be/642KbtSiMbA) from the super PAC that supported Gingrich, which apparently still exists. If every other ad of the cycle was a music video, this ad is “Thriller.”

The video is an imagining of what another four years under Obama would look like, and it’s not too rosy. Picture turning the whole country into blighted Detroit while gays run wild and churches are converted to mosques. There are lots and lots of riots. Riots in the inner cities (naturally), riots in the Middle East, riots at gas stations, riots in supermarkets, riots in the hospital over Obamacare. Fortunately, Obama appears to have implemented martial law so there’s plenty of riot cops too. Meanwhile, gay men get married — to each other! — in modest little ceremonies by the water as crosses are chopped down with chainsaws and churches are converted to mosques. Abroad, Muslims are totally pissed at Obama for appeasing them, or something, and Iran builds literally dozens (http://twitpic.com/b7klpp) of nuclear sites. Florida also loses all of its electricity for some reason and the Statue of Liberty’s face becomes a skull. For good measure, there’s even an allusion to George Orwell’s “1984,” or rather Apple’s classic commercial (http://youtu.be/OYecfV3ubP8) riffing on the book.

“American can’t take four more years of Obama,” the final title screen reads. “A vote for Romney is a vote for America.”

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/642KbtSiMbA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Irish Stout]

No actually Mormon church doctrine is disgusting. Mormon's hold blacks in low regard, hence this comment by Romney's son. Imagine the Republican hysterics if Malia or Sasha said anything remotely similar. Has Romney even repudiated the Mormon doctrine on blacks, did he even support or condone it before 1978 (or after)?


"Jump out of your seat and you want to rush down to the stage and take a swing at [Obama]," Tagg Romney


Errrrrr.... what? Stretching a bit there aren't we?

Look, I think questions about both Romney and Obamas religions are important, because the religion is part of what makes the man. The issue is that not many people know or understand what the Mormon religion is about, so its important to clarify questions that might arise.

As for EpicDrama - he has indicated that this thread is as race/religion bating as one that had Muslims instead of Mormons. I would actually argue that is a fair and legitimate question to ask of all Muslims and one that belongs in this forum. I don't think many, if any, liberals would call you out on that. However, if the point was to argue that Obama is a Muslim and therefore has an anti-American agenda then its on the verge of race/religion bating, especially when there are no facts to back it up... just those extreme long leaps of logic you like to make along with D'Souza and the birther ilk.

[Kaylore]

So does Gaffney hate Mormons or just the religion but likes the people?
Gaffney hates:
1) Jews
2) America
3) People who don't have money to buy his books
4) Mormons ?

5) Kaylore

:welcome:

[SoCalBronco]

Gaff has a PhD......in douchery.

[broncocalijohn]

5) Kaylore

:welcome:

Well, I was lumping you in with all those other heathens in #4. You think you are all that to require your own #? When you have millions of Kaylores slaughtered by Socialist Party of Gaffney, then I will make a #5. Don't worry on that. How fast you Mormons breed to take over the Presidency and the world, it will only take 2 generations. :wiggle:

[mhgaffney]

So does Gaffney hate Mormons or just the religion but likes the people?
Gaffney hates:
1) Jews
2) America
3) People who don't have money to buy his books
4) Mormons ?

Notice, absolutely no mention of the substantive issues I raised about the Book of Mormon.

I will stand with people of color, whether red, black, yellow, green, or indigo.

Just another reminder that it's impossible to underestimate how low this board can go. It seems to hit a new low every week.

It's also a reminder that racism lives on. I can imagine Kaylore cheering the carpet bombing of the Cambodians, Laotians and Vietnamese Commie gooks, a la Nixon and Kissinger, just as he no doubt still supports the remote control murder of ragheads in Afghanistan.

Gotta teach the heathens who's boss, after all. If you can't convert them, then kick ass!
MHG

[El Minion]

So, you're saying that Romney's son's motivation for that comment was because of the color of Obama's skin?

You're just trolling on this, right? I mean, you have to be just trolling.

Mormonism, the last of the back of the bus racism (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/religion-race-and-double-standards.html) for blacks:

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Cain slew his brother . . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. . . . How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed.

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

So, in a complete inversion of Jesus's teaching that those least valued on earth will be celebrated in heaven, we have vile racial supremacism on earth and heaven. This is not a deviation from Christianity but its total inversion. The inherent spiritual-racial iniquity of blacks places them at the very bottom of the pile on earth, and they will achieve salvation only in the hereafter - and then only after every other race has had their turn. Now listen to Romney's response to Russert again:

My faith has always taught me that in the eyes of God every individual merited the fullest degree of happiness in the hereafter and I had no question in my mind that African-Americans and blacks generally would have every right and every benefit in the hereafter that anyone else had.

My italics. There's nothing in Romney's answer that violates the old Mormon doctrine - still there in the Book of Mormon - that for some reason, people with black skin suffer some kind of inherited curse that will only be lifted after everyone else has been saved in the hereafter.

Listen again to the last question and answer in the Russert interview:

Russert: But it was wrong for your faith to exclude [African-Americans] for as long as it did?

Romney: I've told you exactly where I stand. My view is that there is no discrimination in the eyes of God and I could not have been more pleased when the decision occurred.


Why could he not just have said "yes"?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pcw0woPX5VY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Kaylore]

You're so full of crap El minion. I'm just glad I learned you're a bigot.

[DomCasual]

Mormonism, the last of the back of the bus racism (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/religion-race-and-double-standards.html) for blacks:

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––


I won't get into all of that; other than to say that since 1978, there has been no difference in how people in the LDS Church can advance in the church, based solely on the color of their skin. You can argue that it should have happened sooner. You can argue that there never should have been a difference. I have personal feelings about all of that. However, discussing it in this forum, in this thread, isn't something that I have a desire to do.

My response to you was because you implied that Tagg Romney was racist, and his racism was somehow behind his (admittedly silly) comment about wanting to punch the President. The logic (and, perhaps, lack of intelligence) behind that implication was so bizarrely flawed, I assumed that your motivation had to be to troll.

[El Minion]

You're so full of crap El minion. I'm just glad I learned you're a bigot.

That’s rich coming from someone that tacitly condones racism. Pointing out racists religious doctrines and beliefs, and your support of a candidates refusal to repudiate and disavow them especially after holding high office in that religion, doesn’t make someone a bigot. You can believe and defend that racism all you want Kaylore, and I’ll defend your right to hold those racists beliefs but calling it out doesn’t make for bigotry because sunshine is the best disinfectant, especially for counteracting racism.

[broncocalijohn]

As a Catholic, I know my religion isn't perfect but if I keep the same belief as it is supposed to be, I am ok with it inside me. Doesn't mean I agree with everything my religion gives me (a little a la cart style) but it is important how I act among my fellow man that is the real importance for this country. I don't have to agree on the religion of the Latter Day Saints but I am not hung up on a particular religion to not see who that person is in society. For the most part, Mormons are very Christian-like and when I was a teenager, those hot Mormon chicks behaving to their beliefs was my perfect excuse why I couldn't score on them. I just didn't know any Jack Mormons at the time. Those are the rebels! With Kaylore in Denver area, I know I have a designated driver for OMane weekend (or playoffs come January). Try finding a Catholic for the same job.

[El Minion]

I won't get into all of that; other than to say that since 1978, there has been no difference in how people in the LDS Church can advance in the church, based solely on the color of their skin. You can argue that it should have happened sooner. You can argue that there never should have been a difference. I have personal feelings about all of that. However, discussing it in this forum, in this thread, isn't something that I have a desire to do.

My response to you was because you implied that Tagg Romney was racist, and his racism was somehow behind his (admittedly silly) comment about wanting to punch the President. The logic (and, perhaps, lack of intelligence) behind that implication was so bizarrely flawed, I assumed that your motivation had to be to troll.

I give McCain tremendous credit when he corrected, during the 2008 campaign, an ignorant supporter who told him she doesn’t support Obama because he is an Arab. Not so with Romney and Tagg, who is a top and close advisor for his Dad's campaign (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/108815/tagg-romney-myth-self-reliance?page=0,2), who they not only use but their surrogates also use explicit and implicit racists code words, dog whistle for their support this November:

Tagg: Advocating violence on Obama, nope no history of not respecting a black man’s personhood here Tagg.
Romney: “this is what an angry and desperate presidency looks like, take your campaign of division and anger and hate back to Chicago." The angry black man motif, bravo Romney!
Romney: “Under Obama’s plan, you wouldn’t have to work or wouldn’t have to train for a job, they would just send you your welfare check”
Romney: Obama’s welfare plan is to “shore up his base”
Sununu: “Well, I think when you have somebody of your own race that you’re proud of being president of the United States, I applaud Colin for standing with him”
Sununu: “I wish this president would learn how to be an American,”
Romney advisor: “We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special, The White House didn’t fully appreciate the shared history we have.”
Romney: “No one's ever asked to see my birth certificate, they know that this is the place that we were born and raised,”
Tagg: on Mitts’ tax returns release, "as soon as President Obama releases his grades and birth certificate."

[broncocalijohn]

Not one thing in the above tells me he is a racist. It is politics.
Do you think Romney's base is to continue to have Welfare as part of someone's main income? You think he would campaign on that? Why would you put Sununu's comments about Colin Powell backing Obama based on being proud of someone of his own race running for President?

You are stretching it real far dude...real far.

[DomCasual]

I give McCain tremendous credit when he corrected, during the 2008 campaign, an ignorant supporter who told him she doesn’t support Obama because he is an Arab. Not so with Romney and Tagg, who they not only use but their surrogates also use explicit and implicit racists code words, dog whistle for their support this November:

Man, I have no idea where you're getting this. Tagg was defensive because his dad was being called a liar. He didn't even imply that it had anything to do with the skin color of the person who said it. How you could extrapolate something racial out of that, I have no idea.

You are trying to make a connection between two completely unrelated things (the 1978 "Official Declaration" by the LDS Church, regarding eligibility for the Priesthood; and a son's feeling of defensiveness for his father). As BCG said, it's a stretch.

This was the exact question that brought about Tagg Romney's response: "What is it like for you to hear the President of the United States call your dad a liar? How do you react to that?"

Tagg Romney's (again, admittedly-silly) response: " Jump out of your seat and you want to rush down to the debate stage and take a swing at him. But you know you can’t do that because… Well, first there is a lot of Secret Service between you and him; but also because this is the nature of the process."

It was a stupid, machismo-saturated thing to say. It was a cringe-worthy thing to say. But, it had absolutely nothing to do with race. If you see something racist in it, then maybe the racism lies with you.

[Vegas_Bronco]

UH - OH!...Mormons and Atheists just got it right...One on the Bible and the Other on Religion...!

--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2598634/posts

Mormons (LDS) Know More About Bible Than Other Christians (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2598634/posts)
<SMALL>The Salt Lake Tribune ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50374273-76/bible-religion-survey-atheists.html.csp) | 09/28/2010 | Peggy Fletcher Stack</SMALL>

<SMALL>Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 5:05:05 PM by zippythepinhead (http://www.freerepublic.com/~zippythepinhead/)</SMALL>

Atheists and agnostics know more about major world religions than many people of faith, while Mormons can answer more Bible questions than their Catholic and mainline Protestant counterparts.
Those are among the somewhat startling conclusions about religious literacy in America the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion and Public Life drew after surveying 3,412 Americans.
Some of the multiple-choice questions were relatively simple: Where was Jesus born and who led the exodus from Egypt? What religion was Mother Teresa, what day does the Jewish Sabbath begin and what is the name of Islam’s holy book?
Others were more obscure: What is Indonesia’s dominant religion? Which Christians teach that salvation comes through faith alone?
About half the Protestants (53 percent) couldn’t correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation. Fewer than half of Americans (47 percent) knew the Dalai Lama is Buddhist and only 38 percent correctly associated Vishnu and Shiva with Hinduism.
John Morehead, director of the Western Institute for Intercultural Studies in Salt Lake City, had already noted religious illiteracy in the general population as well as in the evangelical community. But he did not expect Mormons to top them in their biblical fluency.
“Mormons tend to emphasize Mormon scriptures like the Book of Mormon rather than the Bible in their devotional life,” Morehead said in an e-mail. Even some LDS scholars were surprised to find Mormons at the top.
"We don't study the Bible as much as evangelical Protestants," said Jim Faulkner, Richard L. Evens chairman of religious understanding at Brigham Young University. "I would have guessed that evangelicals would do better [than us]. They have a lot of Bible study classes, some weekly."
Atheists and agnostics, however, felt vindicated by Pew's findings.
"I am pleased to see a survey that shows we are not just ignoramuses who don't believe [in God] out of anger," said Florien "Flo" Wineriter, Humanists of Utah board member. "I am very interested in the history of religion."
Richard Andrews, president of the Salt Lake Valley Atheists, agrees.
"I didn't grow up a Muslim, but I know the difference between the Shiites and the Sunnis," Andrews said. "It doesn't require knowledge to believe. But to be skeptical, you need to feed that skepticism with a little information."
Monsignor Terrence Fitzgerald, vicar general of the Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City, was not too troubled to learn that 45 percent of U.S. Catholics did not know their church teaches that the bread and wine used in Communion actually become the body and blood of Christ.
"The fundamental doctrines of the Catholic faith are somewhat complicated for the minds of people who do not have a lot of theological education," Fitzgerald said. "The clergy and U.S. bishops are well aware that a good number of our people are theologically uneducated. We are constantly trying to do a better job."
While most Americans (89 percent) surveyed knew that teachers cannot offer prayers in public school classroom, only a third said reading the Bible as literature or teaching comparative religion classes is acceptable.
"I would hope in our state we'd have a little better response to that question," said David Doty, Canyons School District superintendent. "God is not off limits in the classroom, as long as it has an educational goal and not a proselytizing one."
Jodi Ide's world religions class at Brighton High School discussed the Pew survey on Tuesday. The students wondered how atheists could be so well-versed in world religions and how Mormons could score above evangelicals in their knowledge of Christianity.
But mostly, Ide said, the students were proud of their explorations.
Those who study religion "are part of a small minority of people in the country who know of other faiths," the students told her. "We are doing something about this ignorance individually and as a class."
It felt good, she said.

[Bronco Yoda]

Don't forget some of those may be members who haven't been to church in years, or were baptized in their youth but stopped going as teens and are now adults and barely remember anything about the church, let alone care if Romney is Mormon or not. You can be a good Mormon and vote Democrat or Republican. Some conservatives may be mad at Romney about his previous stance on abortion. Some liberal Mormons may see Romney as someone who doesn't care about helping the poor enough. It's not cut and dry and I would expect the same amount of gain from that group that I would a Catholic candidate would get from the Catholic groups: It wouldn't be a reason NOT to vote for him, but you better have something to say after that.

So today I go over to my Mormon neighbors house to help him with his computer. There on his door is a card with the outside of the card with a church on it and written "come vote early with us. We Mormons are voting Romney". I didn't open it to read what else was inside. Next to the door was a metal Romney sign for his front yard.

So I go down the street to another neighbors house to pick up some of my tools. His neighbor is Mormon. His son is one of my son's best friend. I notice on the door the same card on his front door.

... but the church isn't getting out the 'vote Romney' right? BULL****!

See i see no problem with the get out the vote they're doing. But I do have a problem with you trying to portray one thing while something else is the truth. Like I said before just be honest about it.

[baja]

Honesty is for smucks in today's world. Didn't you get the memo back in 1978?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/romney-religio-nuts.jpg

[Kaylore]

If what LABF is doing is indicative of where the left is at, I am hopeful. Stooping to such base levels usually heralds a floundering campaign that is desperately throwing anything they can to smear someone because they have nothing to stand on. It also only ends up making the person putting the stuff out there look like a small person.

But then LABF has never brough substance to any political debate. He just tries to reduce any kind of dialogue into a strawman full of lies he can burn with classless pictures and jokes.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If what LABF is doing is indicative of where the left is at, I am hopeful. Stooping to such base levels usually heralds a floundering campaign that is desperately throwing anything they can to smear someone because they have nothing to stand on. It also only ends up making the person putting the stuff out there look like a small person.

But then LABF has never brough substance to any political debate. He just tries to reduce any kind of dialogue into a strawman full of lies he can burn with classless pictures and jokes.

This heaping helping of fake righteous indignation tells me the foregoing statements about Romney's religion were right on target.

[TonyR]

Khan, here's a post from Sullivan yesterday, referencing something of his I posted the other day which you took umbrage to, which includes an email from a Mormon reader and Sullivan's response. Worth a read.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/when.html

[Irish Stout]

If what LABF is doing is indicative of where the left is at, I am hopeful. Stooping to such base levels usually heralds a floundering campaign that is desperately throwing anything they can to smear someone because they have nothing to stand on. It also only ends up making the person putting the stuff out there look like a small person.

But then LABF has never brough substance to any political debate. He just tries to reduce any kind of dialogue into a strawman full of lies he can burn with classless pictures and jokes.

Kaylore - its not indicative of what the left is doing. Thats why you don't see massive and widespread push and attack about Romney's religion everywhere. On the other hand, you do still see a loud push from right wing extremists (not the normal people on the right) to label Obama an anti-American muslim communist with absolutely no evidence to back it up... unfortunately, I think those scare tactics work.

[Kaylore]

Kaylore - its not indicative of what the left is doing. Thats why you don't see massive and widespread push and attack about Romney's religion everywhere. On the other hand, you do still see a loud push from right wing extremists (not the normal people on the right) to label Obama an anti-American muslim communist with absolutely no evidence to back it up... unfortunately, I think those scare tactics work.

I don't. I think they work on some, but in different ways. I think it's easy to scare old people with anything medicare related because they are a bit slower on the draw and are on fixed incomes so they are really nervous about those things.

That said, in another post I posted an article about a CU study that has predicted the Presidential winner going back to 1980. The thing about the article is that the core issues are what voters end up going to the polls for: Economy, jobs, wars, income, etc. This means it doesn't matter what type of underwear Romney wears or if the actress from HBO's girls says Romney wants to kill Bravo or that Obama is secretly a Kenyan national ready to turn the entire country into the glory of Alah at any moment (because we all know those Muslims are all for gay marriage!). It means DESPITE all the noise, Americans vote pretty much with their brains, for the most part. The ones that vote crazy and are persuaded by stupid adds were stupid to begin with.

Call me an optimist. I actually believe in Democracy.