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Mecklomaniac
10-19-2012, 07:02 PM
Ok, bye week boredom. After Monday nights comeback ESPN talked about if you had a Mount Rushmore for QBs who would it be. They had Peyton, Elway, Marino and Favre.

Radio station up here in Seattle picked it up and had a good discussion. They discussed a lot of different criteria (changed the game, championships, leadership, yards, etc..)

Sammy Baugh---- changed the way the game is played.
Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.
Warren Moon-- CFL and NFL hall of fame, lead the way for black QBs
Passing Yards--- Brett Favre
Leadership --- Elway taking teams with limited talent to the Superbowl
Comebacks --- Peyton Manning
Career pass completion % --- Chad Pennington :)


If you could only pick four who would you go with and why?

menonite
10-19-2012, 07:15 PM
Johnny Unitas?

TheChamp24
10-19-2012, 07:16 PM
Unitas changed the game a lot.

Unitas, Montana, Elway and Manning I think

menonite
10-19-2012, 07:21 PM
Manning

I would not want to be the dude in charge of chiseling out the forehead.

SouthStndJunkie
10-19-2012, 07:35 PM
Yep....Johnny Unitas should have been on that list for sure and Joe Namath shouldn't be on the list.

Carmelo15
10-19-2012, 07:35 PM
1. Joe Montana
2. John Elway
3. Peyton Manning
4. Dan Marino

errand
10-19-2012, 07:51 PM
Yep....Johnny Unitas should have been on that list for sure and Joe Namath shouldn't be on the list.

Namath changed the game of how much money players earned.......and gave the AFL credibility winning SB III over heavily favored Colts....

He doesn't make my list of Baugh, Graham, Unitas, and Elway....but he was instrumental in changing the game some way.

SouthStndJunkie
10-19-2012, 07:57 PM
Namath changed the game of how much money players earned.......and gave the AFL credibility winning SB III over heavily favored Colts....

He doesn't make my list of Baugh, Graham, Unitas, and Elway....but he was instrumental in changing the game some way.

It's just my opinion, but anyone with a career 50.1% completion percentage and a 173 TD to 220 INT ratio shouldn't be in this list.

Namath's all time won/loss record is also under .500 at 62-63-4.

Maybe I would feel different had a I seen him play growing up and saw his impact in the game in that era.

You can't tell the history of the AFL/NFL without talking about him, but I don't think he should be in consideration for the Mount Rushmore of QBs.

maher_tyler
10-19-2012, 08:03 PM
Johnny Unitas?

I knew that list didn't look right.

I voted Elway, Montana, Manning and Namath but would switch to Unitas.

errand
10-19-2012, 08:07 PM
It's just my opinion, but anyone with a career 50.1% completion percentage and a 173 TD to 220 INT ratio shouldn't be in this list.

Namath's all time won/loss record is also under .500 at 62-63-4.

Maybe I would feel different had a I seen him play growing up and saw his impact in the game in that era.

You can't tell the history of the AFL/NFL without talking about him, but I don't think he should be in consideration for the Mount Rushmore of QBs.


again, depends on the criteria.....he gave the AFL credibility which led to the merger with NFL which created the new national past time and helped usher in higher salaries for the players.....

Sure his numbers weren't that great compared to the ones being put up by every QB today...but the leagues were alot different then than they are now....

to hit on half your passes was actually pretty good back in the day as DB's and LB's were allowed to knock your WR's down throughout the whole route practically, and linemen protecting you weren't allowed to use their hands when pass blocking, etc.....

Just one man's opinion...

BowlenBall
10-19-2012, 08:10 PM
Elway and Montana, no question.

Manning (but would like him to win one more super bowl to make it a slam dunk)

Very close for the last slot, but I suppose I'd give it to Unitas (Marion has no rings, therefore is not eligible)

cutthemdown
10-19-2012, 08:21 PM
Elway- I am a Bronco fan
Unitas- first to really make the forward pass deadly
Marino- did anyone every throw the ball around better
Montana-ushered in the west coast high% passing game we still see today.

ScottXray
10-19-2012, 08:51 PM
If only 4 I would have to go with
Elway ( carried three teams to bowls and then won 2 with complete teams)

Montana ( multiple championships, first to run the WCO)

Graham ( 10 consecutive championship games!)

Bradshaw ( eww... that almost made me throw up) ( 4 SB wins)
Brady might edge him out here. Basically a toss up. Someone Morph Brady and Bradshaws faces.

If Manning gets another 2 SB win then he probably replaces the last, because of his play elevating his teams.



Criteria...Multiple championships and appearances due to QB play!

On that basis Marino, Favre, Moon, Unitas et al don't make the mount. Currently also Peyton Manning.

extralife
10-20-2012, 01:16 AM
Unitas, Montana, Brady, Manning.

I wanted to drop Manning for Graham so you could have four QBs for four different generations, but right now I can't see this without both Manning and Brady. Elway and Graham would be five and six in some order.

cutthemdown
10-20-2012, 01:22 AM
Unitas, Montana, Brady, Manning.

I wanted to drop Manning for Graham so you could have four QBs for four different generations, but right now I can't see this without both Manning and Brady. Elway and Graham would be five and six in some order.

I disagree. Brady would never have survived the game back in Elways day. Back then dbacks could grab, they got 1 full step after you threw the ball to drive you into the dirt. You could hit defensless players and take them out of the game, which happened a lot. Broncos learned from the Raiders that whoozy players cant play football. Dennis Smith and Atwater took that out on WR for a decade. Meanwhile the Raiders would pummel Elway left and right, out of bounds, after the whistle, after he threw the ball, everytime he ran, and there was no sliding.

Manning and Brady are the best of the new era, but hard to compare or say they are better then Marino, Elway, Fouts, Kelly, those guys took a beating and kept on ticking.

The tackle that jim burt put on Montana to screw his back up would also be illegal now. Now pile driving the QB with your whole body weight.

Lycan
10-20-2012, 03:28 AM
For me it's: Elway, Montana, Marino, Manning.

The four best QB's of all time IMO.

extralife
10-20-2012, 04:38 AM
I disagree. Brady would never have survived the game back in Elways day.

Brady is tough as ****. Maybe he misses a few more games, maybe he doesn't, you can't really say. The rules protect QBs much better these days, but don't forget that said protection was enacted and necessitated by the sheer athletic ability of defenders in today's game.

If you want to argue that Manning and Brady wouldn't have the same stats they do now if they had played in a different era, you won't find me disagreeing. But given that Manning is going to retire as number one or number two all time in every significant passing category and Brady won't be that far behind despite playing in a conservative offense for the first half of his career, well, a little statistical deflation wouldn't kill them. And winning is winning regardless of the era--in that department, Brady's five super bowl appearances are tied with you-know-who for the most all time. Brady has also succeeded in two entire different offensive systems, playing entirely different games. His winning percentage is the best in NFL history for a QB with anything near his games played (granted, Otto Graham has better numbers in this department, his just didn't come entirely in the NFL).

And if today's QBs would find it harder to play in a league that didn't protect them as much, yesterday's QBs would find it difficult to operate with the precision, responsibility, knowledge, and accuracy of Peyton Manning and his acolytes. Manning's command of the game is simply on a different level, he's the most distinctive QB to ever play the game. Watching Manning play the game is simply different from watching anyone else play the game. If I trust what I've read, the analog here is basically Unitas and no one else.

HorseHead
10-20-2012, 05:31 AM
By the end of his career, Brady will be right next to our boy on Rushmore..

Granted, a couple of those rings came courtesy of a clutch kicker, before the Moss air show, he didn't exactly have a stellar wr corps either...

Jay3
10-20-2012, 06:17 AM
I went with Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning.

I feel like the each occupy a particular archetype, and were the best of that archetype. So, for example Montana -- he's slightly under Brady, similar mold.

Or the drop back and find something, gunslinger -- that's Marino. Favre was a poor man's Marino.

Elway is the athletic, mobile, will his team to victory type (big arm).

I think Manning is on it -- the ultimate cerebral, read the defense before snap, change the play, etc. There has never been anyone better at that aspect.

rmsanger
10-20-2012, 06:52 AM
Bros I love Elway and all but by the end of this next decade he'll be a tier 2 QB in the public's perception.

Most people today regard Montana & Marino higher than Elway with Favre being on the same level. When it's all said and done likely the current crazy stats will drive the #'s for Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers above what is currently HOF material.

Just sayin!

DENVERDUI55
10-20-2012, 08:19 AM
For me it's: Elway, Montana, Marino, Manning.

The four best QB's of all time IMO.

This is what I think too. Helps that is my era of players too.

HorseHead
10-20-2012, 09:07 AM
I disagree with the above that Elway will be "tier 2 qb" when all is said and done. After this next wave..

Actually, I think Elway's stock has risen, and has been cemented irregardless of stats.

In many ways, the QB's you see today have Elway's style DNA written all over their play..(RG 3 , Cam etc.)

In many ways he was the prototype...

Hamrob
10-20-2012, 10:33 AM
For me, it's:

Baugh...the very best of the old days
Unitas...the first true gun slinger
Montana...Joe cool
Elway...Better than Marino
Manning...Better than Brady

That's my top-5

Honorable Mentions

Staubach
Marino
Favre
Brady

Hamrob
10-20-2012, 10:36 AM
Bros I love Elway and all but by the end of this next decade he'll be a tier 2 QB in the public's perception.

Most people today regard Montana & Marino higher than Elway with Favre being on the same level. When it's all said and done likely the current crazy stats will drive the #'s for Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers above what is currently HOF material.

Just sayin!Who regards Marino greater than Elway???

I don't see that, I don't hear that....that's just not the facts.

Elway...5 AFC Championships, 2 Rings..........and stats right there with Marino...playing with lesser talent around him for most of his career.

I think....there's a pitty party going on out there for Marino...But, I don't think people feel he was a beter all around QB than Elway!

gunns
10-20-2012, 10:51 AM
I disagree with the above that Elway will be "tier 2 qb" when all is said and done. After this next wave..

Actually, I think Elway's stock has risen, and has been cemented irregardless of stats.

In many ways, the QB's you see today have Elway's style DNA written all over their play..(RG 3 , Cam etc.)

In many ways he was the prototype...

I agree. Montana had a team to work with and make him look very good. Not saying he wasn't but one does have to wonder if there would have been that much success without it. Marino had the quick release plus accuracy BUT he also had some great WR tandems. Elway was one of the great athletes at the position and one of the few players I've ever seen carrying teams on his back.

Unitas definitely should be up there. Namath not so much as far as QB play, Bradshaw either, he didn't win 4 SB's, his defenses did.

No1BroncoFan
10-20-2012, 01:24 PM
Sammy Baugh:
Punter, kicker and tail back as well as playing QB. 'Nuff said.

Johnny Unitas:
3 NFL championships and re-defined the roll of quarterback.

Fran Tarkenton:
Carried 4 undeserving Viking teams to Superbowls but was never given that complete team. At the time of his retirement, he owned every meaningful QB record and still ranks in the top 10 in many.

John Elway:
Quite simply the best all-round QB. Leadership, passing, evading sacks, scrambling for time/yards, making those around him better... There were/are QBs who could do some of those things better, but no one can/did them all better.

Honorable mentions (in no particular order):
Marino:
Possibly the best pure passer to ever touch a football. He could make any throw and hurt you from anywhere on the field.

Bart Starr:
Three consecutive NFL championships and a 9-1 post-season record. He also had nearly 25,000 yards and an NFL career completion percentage record of 57.4% in a serious run first era.

Otto Graham:
Ten title games in ten years winning seven of them and compiling a career 83.4 winning percentage.

Peyton Manning:
Arguably the best QB in the modern era.

Roger Staubach:
Won just over 74 percent of his starts, including two of four championship games and four passing titles.

Joe Montana? Please. He was a second tier QB who had the fortune to play for the best teams money could buy. The 80s 'Niners were the NY Yankees of the NFL.

Blueflame
10-20-2012, 01:49 PM
Who regards Marino greater than Elway???

I don't see that, I don't hear that....that's just not the facts.

Elway...5 AFC Championships, 2 Rings..........and stats right there with Marino...playing with lesser talent around him for most of his career.

I think....there's a pitty party going on out there for Marino...But, I don't think people feel he was a beter all around QB than Elway!

Marino stuck around a couple of years too long, IMHO... physically he wasn't in his prime anymore and Jimmy Johnson seemed to be quite eager for the "post-Marino-era" to begin (didn't really seem to appreciate Marino or his legacy). And some football fans still remember the last game of Marino's career being a lopsided 62-7 playoff loss to the Jags... a game in which Marino was benched for ineffectiveness. Either way, while Marino set a lot of passing records, those records will eventually be broken and the lack of a championship hurts his "stock" in the "Best QB Ever" debates.

Jay3
10-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Who regards Marino greater than Elway???

I don't see that, I don't hear that....that's just not the facts.

Elway...5 AFC Championships, 2 Rings..........and stats right there with Marino...playing with lesser talent around him for most of his career.

I think....there's a pitty party going on out there for Marino...But, I don't think people feel he was a beter all around QB than Elway!

Seriously, I think there is a lot of thought that Marino may have been the best ever, certainly Mount Rushmore material. He was extremely gifted. He broke multiple important records in his second year as a pro, and there is no offensive genius like Bill Walsh associated with it.

extralife
10-20-2012, 03:10 PM
Bros I love Elway and all but by the end of this next decade he'll be a tier 2 QB in the public's perception.

Most people today regard Montana & Marino higher than Elway with Favre being on the same level. When it's all said and done likely the current crazy stats will drive the #'s for Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers above what is currently HOF material.

Just sayin!

I haven't seen anyone put Marino ahead of Elway in at least a decade.

Hamrob
10-20-2012, 04:54 PM
Seriously, I think there is a lot of thought that Marino may have been the best ever, certainly Mount Rushmore material. He was extremely gifted. He broke multiple important records in his second year as a pro, and there is no offensive genius like Bill Walsh associated with it.Jay, I'm not sure how old you are...but, watched just about every game Elway played...and many of Dan Marino. Marino is a HOFer....first ballot hands down. But, better than Elway...not a chance. Elway was an all around player...He could pass it, he could run it, and he was a magician when it came to escaping the rush. And, although Marino was no slouch...Elway had an uncanny way of making things happen.

Elway was A, whereas Marino was B.

JCMElway
10-20-2012, 05:40 PM
Unitas, Elway, Marino, Montana

Seamus
10-20-2012, 06:00 PM
I would not want to be the dude in charge of chiseling out the forehead.

Or the guy finding that much rock for it, I don't think they will let you chisel up Yosemite's half dome.:)

errand
10-20-2012, 09:13 PM
Fran Tarkenton:
Carried 4 undeserving Viking teams to Superbowls but was never given that complete team. At the time of his retirement, he owned every meaningful QB record and still ranks in the top 10 in many.



Tarkenton only led the Vikings to 3 SB's...their first one vs. Chiefs was QB'd by Joe Kapp.

Pontius Pirate
10-20-2012, 09:50 PM
http://www.brianbehrend.com/links/archives/images/plummer-porn.jpg

razorwire77
10-20-2012, 09:52 PM
Unitas
Elway
Montana
Brady
Manning

Marino slightly below because of the lack of a SB victory.

Cito Pelon
10-20-2012, 10:06 PM
I was looking at the stats for QBs, and I saw Dave Krieg is 12th alltime in yds and 12th alltime in TD passes. Dave Krieg, from Milton College, dude was like a walkon to the Seahawks and ends up 12th alltime in yds and TD passes. Won some playoff games also. Back then people thought Seattle was gonna be a joke forever, but then along came Krieg and Largent.

No1BroncoFan
10-20-2012, 10:10 PM
Tarkenton only led the Vikings to 3 SB's...their first one vs. Chiefs was QB'd by Joe Kapp.

I stand corrected.

Still, he carried teams much the same way Elway did.

Crushaholic
10-20-2012, 10:32 PM
Joe Namath - Essentially, he was the first quarterback to put the entertainment value in professional football.

John Elway - As someone else said, he took teams of limited talent to multiple Super Bowls in the 80s.

Bart Starr - The father of Green Bay quarterbacks (Green Bay being a tradition-rich professional football franchise, and the only team that has fan "investors").

Sammy Baugh - He was the first to use the forward pass, consistently.

I actually VOTED for Peyton, instead of Joe Namath. However, I hadn't finalized my reasoning, yet. Joe Namath likely expanded the professional football base, by being outrageous...

Cito Pelon
10-20-2012, 10:35 PM
It's hard to choose four, there's been a lot of excellent QB's. Steve Young and Jim Kelly wasted a couple years in the USFL, right? Young rode the pine behind Montana for a few years.

Also, the older guys actually got their asses kicked hanging in the pocket when the headslap was legal and hitting the QB was fair game, and they only played 12-14 games in a season. Those older QB's also had to deal with the goal post being in the middle of the endzone instead of at the back, that kind of disrupts your endzone passing stats.

FearLanier
10-20-2012, 10:57 PM
Otto Graham has to be on this list. He was the king of old school.

If it's only 4, I'd say:

Otto Graham: King of old school
John Elway: Comeback kid who had perfect ending
Joe Montana: Most clutch QB ever
Tom Brady: I know I know, but his story is legendary. 6th round to top 5 ever. Has multiple rings and got the best of Peyton almost every time.

Manning is close, but I think his playoff troubles question him. It's so hard to believe he only has 1 SB.

broncocalijohn
10-20-2012, 10:58 PM
I am going with my Mount St. Helens tribute and go with Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russell, Broydie Croyle and Rick Mirer. All 4 QBs representing the old AFC West.

maven
10-20-2012, 11:03 PM
Marino stuck around a couple of years too long, IMHO... physically he wasn't in his prime anymore and Jimmy Johnson seemed to be quite eager for the "post-Marino-era" to begin (didn't really seem to appreciate Marino or his legacy). And some football fans still remember the last game of Marino's career being a lopsided 62-7 playoff loss to the Jags... a game in which Marino was benched for ineffectiveness. Either way, while Marino set a lot of passing records, those records will eventually be broken and the lack of a championship hurts his "stock" in the "Best QB Ever" debates.

Terrible job of working together. The complete opposite of Shanny/Elway. Jimmy should have dumped Marino instantly if he wasn't going to work with Marino when he became HC. Both Jimmy and Marino were done after that blowout game.

Blueflame
10-20-2012, 11:49 PM
Terrible job of working together. The complete opposite of Shanny/Elway. Jimmy should have dumped Marino instantly if he wasn't going to work with Marino when he became HC. Both Jimmy and Marino were done after that blowout game.

It was... unfortunate... for Marino's legacy that in his team's last playoff games in '98 and '99, they were outscored 100-10 (38-3 by the Broncos; 62-7 by the Jags).

Cito Pelon
10-21-2012, 12:44 AM
Sammy Baugh:
Punter, kicker and tail back as well as playing QB. 'Nuff said.

Johnny Unitas:
3 NFL championships and re-defined the roll of quarterback.

Fran Tarkenton:
Carried 4 undeserving Viking teams to Superbowls but was never given that complete team. At the time of his retirement, he owned every meaningful QB record and still ranks in the top 10 in many.

John Elway:
Quite simply the best all-round QB. Leadership, passing, evading sacks, scrambling for time/yards, making those around him better... There were/are QBs who could do some of those things better, but no one can/did them all better.

Honorable mentions (in no particular order):
Marino:
Possibly the best pure passer to ever touch a football. He could make any throw and hurt you from anywhere on the field.

Bart Starr:
Three consecutive NFL championships and a 9-1 post-season record. He also had nearly 25,000 yards and an NFL career completion percentage record of 57.4% in a serious run first era.

Otto Graham:
Ten title games in ten years winning seven of them and compiling a career 83.4 winning percentage.

Peyton Manning:
Arguably the best QB in the modern era.

Roger Staubach:
Won just over 74 percent of his starts, including two of four championship games and four passing titles.

Joe Montana? Please. He was a second tier QB who had the fortune to play for the best teams money could buy. The 80s 'Niners were the NY Yankees of the NFL.

Staubach was different/special. Naval Academy, spent 5 years in the Navy before he played in the NFL. Might have led the league in concussions during his time in the NFL. Dude was 27 yrs old his rookie year in the NFL.

bowtown
10-21-2012, 06:02 AM
Elway
Manning
Unitas
Montana

That's the correct answer. Any other variations are wrong and will not be considered by this governing body. Thanks for your suggestions.

Meck77
10-21-2012, 07:05 AM
It was tough watching Elway walk away from the game but he did it like KING. There is no doubt Marino marched up and down the field but for what? Some of you younger pups probably don't remember his last game but I'll never forget it. It was painful and sad.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031100/jag_2405857.html

fwf
10-21-2012, 07:34 AM
Its hard to put Brady without Peyton or vice versa.

errand
10-21-2012, 08:05 AM
I stand corrected.

Still, he carried teams much the same way Elway did.

Yes, he did carry them.....add in he was only 6'0" 190 he was very durable as well. Fran was a great QB in his day. He went up against many big time QB's and dominant teams as well....there's no denying it. Hall of Fame career, record setting QB....I really wished he would have won at least one of those SB's.


Once he was being interviewed by a chump rookie reporter who asked him "So you never won the big one, huh?"

He replied, "No, I only won 130 little ones...."

errand
10-21-2012, 08:10 AM
Its hard to put Brady without Peyton or vice versa.

I agree...however given the rules of today compared to those that had to play say, in the 40's thru early 80's, I doubt Brady would have held up or had as much success. Manning I think would have been great regardless of the era as he's the epitome of "student of the game".

His lack of multiple titles is why he doesn't make my list.....which is sad cuz it's like saying the other 49 girls in the miss USA pageant are ugly, when they're really very beautiful as well.....they're just not the pick of the litter.

errand
10-21-2012, 08:13 AM
It was tough watching Elway walk away from the game but he did it like KING. There is no doubt Marino marched up and down the field but for what? Some of you younger pups probably don't remember his last game but I'll never forget it. It was painful and sad.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031100/jag_2405857.html

The truth is Marino carried those Dolphin teams the last few years of his career...much like Elway did his Broncos.

errand
10-21-2012, 08:19 AM
Otto Graham:
Ten title games in ten years winning seven of them and compiling a career 83.4 winning percentage.

He also played one season of pro basketball....and won a championship in his solitary season as well....

cutthemdown
10-21-2012, 02:16 PM
Brady is tough as ****. Maybe he misses a few more games, maybe he doesn't, you can't really say. The rules protect QBs much better these days, but don't forget that said protection was enacted and necessitated by the sheer athletic ability of defenders in today's game.

If you want to argue that Manning and Brady wouldn't have the same stats they do now if they had played in a different era, you won't find me disagreeing. But given that Manning is going to retire as number one or number two all time in every significant passing category and Brady won't be that far behind despite playing in a conservative offense for the first half of his career, well, a little statistical deflation wouldn't kill them. And winning is winning regardless of the era--in that department, Brady's five super bowl appearances are tied with you-know-who for the most all time. Brady has also succeeded in two entire different offensive systems, playing entirely different games. His winning percentage is the best in NFL history for a QB with anything near his games played (granted, Otto Graham has better numbers in this department, his just didn't come entirely in the NFL).

And if today's QBs would find it harder to play in a league that didn't protect them as much, yesterday's QBs would find it difficult to operate with the precision, responsibility, knowledge, and accuracy of Peyton Manning and his acolytes. Manning's command of the game is simply on a different level, he's the most distinctive QB to ever play the game. Watching Manning play the game is simply different from watching anyone else play the game. If I trust what I've read, the analog here is basically Unitas and no one else.

Mannning I agree on but i really think brady would have struggled being hit like the old qbs used to. Elway would take 6-7 hits after the throw a game that would be flags nowdays.

Also not sure going up against Larwence Taylors, Howie Longs, Greg Townsends, D. Thomas, Neil Smiths, Atwaters, Lotts etc was any easier then going against defense nowdays. IMO they were much more vicious 15 yrs ago.

Whtaever though one point stands for sure. That todays stats skewed compared to qbs like Jim Kelly and Dan Marino, Elway, Montana etc etc. Montana would be like Drew Brees in todays game. You simple wouldn't get to touch him much.

gunns
10-21-2012, 02:24 PM
Otto Graham:
Ten title games in ten years winning seven of them and compiling a career 83.4 winning percentage.

He also played one season of pro basketball....and won a championship in his solitary season as well....

Agreed, great athlete.

Irish Stout
10-21-2012, 02:49 PM
I voted Brady over Manning, as much as I hated to. The reason why is that Brady, right now has better stats in three of the most important categories - Wins, Playoff Wins and Superbowl Wins. By the end of the season, I think that Manning will have a belt full of new records, which will increase his stature in the NFL QB benchmark world. However, until he wins a few more playoff games and another Superbowl, its hard for me to rank him over Brady in the modern QB era.

As for the "Brady wouldn't have made it as a QB in earlier years" argument... who is to say? With the ever changing rules of the NFL its just too hard to theoretically compare one QB to another of a different generation. A lot of the rules today do help the QB, but some rules, like the old force out rule, could be considered an advantage to some of the older QBs. You have to take the man in his context of when he played, how he played, what he did, and what he accomplished with what he had.

For the best to accomplish what they did with what they had, its hard not to argue Elway. Otto Graham did a ton with what he had on the Browns. Bart Starr and Montana were surrounded by greatness, but accomplished their own feats with convincing style.

One of my favorite articles of all time is the one where it compares Elway to Montana and ranks Elway as the better QB for having done so much with such bad teams.

Also - Unitas.

orinjkrush
10-21-2012, 06:22 PM
Johnny Unitas?

yep

sammy baugh
unitas
staubach
montana
manning

Lestat
10-21-2012, 06:45 PM
Unitas,Elway,Montana & Manning.
Brady,Marino,Graham and Baugh are definitely up there as well.

maven
10-21-2012, 08:00 PM
Brady>Manning

5 SB's versus 2

Lestat
10-21-2012, 08:11 PM
Brady>Manning

5 SB's versus 2

in that case it's Graham,Montana & Bradshaw as the top QB's ever.

maven
10-21-2012, 08:12 PM
in that case it's Graham,Montana & Bradshaw as the top QB's ever.

Nope. Brady is definitely greater than Manning.

Lestat
10-21-2012, 08:18 PM
Nope. Brady is definitely greater than Manning.

naw, Manning has 4 NFL MVP's, a super bowl MVP, fastest to 50,000 yards, fastest to 400 TD's, fastest to 4,000 completions.
and no QB has ever been as good as Manning at audibling, controlling the offense and manipulating the defense.

~Crash~
10-21-2012, 08:39 PM
Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.


How the hell do you leave that out..

Lestat
10-21-2012, 09:04 PM
Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.


How the hell do you leave that out..

the same way you don't say Bill Russell is the best NBA player ever because he won 11 titles.

extralife
10-21-2012, 09:51 PM
the same way you don't say Bill Russell is the best NBA player ever because he won 11 titles.

everyone puts Bill Russell in the top five

NUB
10-22-2012, 04:23 AM
When I think Rushmore I think old-school, groundbreaking types.

Baugh, Graham, Starr, Unitas.

socalorado
10-22-2012, 07:52 AM
Unitas needs to be on the list

Unitas
Elway
Baugh
Montana
Manning

Marino never won jack squat.
Favre only won with really good teams.
Young deserves honorable mention, but never did enough to be on the mountian.
Brady. He might deserve to be there. Maybe chisel him on in a few years. Not yet.

Baugh just fricken won. He changed the game, and Unitas brought the game into the modern era. Both were awesome under pressure, and had incredible work ethics.
They were masters of their positions, and revolutionized the game.
Lets face it, Montana had dynasty teams, but when they were faltering, he was jut clutch. He did have to go against dynasties in his own right in Dallas and NyGiants, and pulled out some of the most incredible victories of all time. The guy was just $$.
Elway. The master. No one did it better, and no one elevated himself and his sub-par teams to a higher level year in and year out. No one pulled out more wins in clutch time, i dont care what the records say. Elway did it in the most crucial and critical times when it was all on the line and his story book ending puts him on the mountian top.

“So far in Elway’s career, his offensive linemen and wide receivers have been voted to the Pro Bowl a combined seven times. In Dan Marino’s 15 seasons, Miami Dolphins offensive linemen and wide receivers have been selected to the Pro Bowl 30 times. … Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history at the time of this writing. (138). It’s the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven’s Ninth on a kazoo. But Elway’s career has been about more than just winning. It has been about escaping defeat a half page from the end of the novel, leaping over pits of fire with the microdot hidden in his cigarette lighter. On first down Elway was ‘pretty average,’ his Stanford coach Paul Wiggin once said. But when the elementary school kids are being held hostage and the detonator reads 00:03, who would you rather have clipping the wires than Elway? He may be the only quarterback in history who could stand on his own two-yard line, trailing by five with less than two minutes to play, no timeouts left, windchill –5, and cause the opposing coach to mutter, ‘We’re in trouble.’” --Rick Reilly, Sports Illustrated, qtd. in Austin Murphy’s The Super Bowl: Sports Greatest Championship

fwf
10-22-2012, 09:16 AM
Brady>Manning

5 SB's versus 2


WRONG.
Peyton 4 Mvp awards to Bradys 2.

Id like to see how many Peyton would have one if the Colts cheated like the Pats did all those years.

IMO these guys are pretty equal.. If youre going to put Brady or leave him off then you should do the same for Peyton.

mwill07
10-22-2012, 10:18 AM
Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.


How the hell do you leave that out..

ugh. Graham was the beneficiary of Paul Brown being leaps and bounds ahead of the other AAFC and NFL coaches in terms of college scouting, mostly on the basis of his college coaching days... in addition to Brown being the archetype of what we think coaches should do.

When the AAFC was founded, they needed to compete with the NFL. There was no draft, it was a free-agency signing bonanza, mostly to be able to tear players away from the NFL. The early Browns were stocked with future HoF'ers, including Graham.

imagine today's most innovative coach being able to compile all of the top college recruits, letting them play against mediocre competition (and winning 4 straight championships in the "minor league") before entering the NFL. That's what happened.

i'm not saying Graham isn't good or he doesn't deserve credit; let's just put his accomplishments into perspective.

mwill07
10-22-2012, 10:21 AM
Elway Unitas Baugh Staubach

If we have room for a 5th, Montana.

Mountain Bronco
10-22-2012, 01:14 PM
Elway, Montana, Unitas, Brady

Manning would be 5 and can pass Brady with another SB win, but stats alone don't get it done IMO which is why he is short as is Marino. Great leaders get it done even with less and Marino didn't.

I hate Brady, but the dude doesn't get enough respect with 5 AFC Championships and 3 rings.

bronco militia
10-22-2012, 01:21 PM
these are the QB's I've seen that make it look so easy

Elway, Montana, Young, Manning, Favre, Brady and Marino.

Kaylore
10-22-2012, 01:22 PM
Unitas!