Germany Sets Solar Power Record

[Rohirrim]

German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity per hour - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity - through the midday hours on Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank said.

The German government decided to abandon nuclear power after the ***ushima nuclear disaster last year, closing eight plants immediately and shutting down the remaining nine by 2022.

They will be replaced by renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and bio-mass.

Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry (IWR) in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power per hour fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50 percent of the nation's midday electricity needs.

"Never before anywhere has a country produced as much photovoltaic electricity," Allnoch told Reuters. "Germany came close to the 20 gigawatt (GW) mark a few times in recent weeks. But this was the first time we made it over."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/26/us-climate-germany-solar-idUSBRE84P0FI20120526

[Mecklomaniac]

Utilities and consumer groups have complained the FIT for solar power adds about 2 cents per kilowatt/hour on top of electricity prices in Germany that are already among the highest in the world with consumers paying about 23 cents per kw/h.

German consumers pay about 4 billion euros ($5 billion) per year on top of their electricity bills for solar power, according to a 2012 report by the Environment Ministry.

Critics also complain growing levels of solar power make the national grid more less stable due to fluctuations in output.

Interesting but still a long way to go and many questions to answer.

Cost ---Panel farms are expensive. From the article solar cost 23 cents per kw/h. Hydro here in the pacific northwest costs 3-6 cents per kw/h

Power storage --- How to you deal with power needs at night, or low light.
Use of rare earth minerals in making solar panels.

[Drek]

Interesting but still a long way to go and many questions to answer.

Cost ---Panel farms are expensive. From the article solar cost 23 cents per kw/h. Hydro here in the pacific northwest costs 3-6 cents per kw/h

Power storage --- How to you deal with power needs at night, or low light.
Use of rare earth minerals in making solar panels.

1. the very thing you cited specifically blames the solar panels for a 2 cent bump, not the difference between 3-6 cents and 23 cents, FYI. So if solar panels were rolled out similarly in your region with similar yield your costs would go from 3-6 up to 5-8 kw/h.

2. Power banking is actually possible, FYI, thanks to these things called batteries. Also, I don't see anyone advocating solar as the be all end all of energy issues.

If you assume a 10% increase in energy cost for a solar system akin to what Germany is moving towards versus the increased cost of perpetual involvement in the Middle East (militarily, domestic aid, etc.) you'll come out with a damn strong argument for us rolling out solar across this country.

Smart grid, solar farms, wind farms, more nuclear plants. Push that and break the dependence on foreign oil. Then we can do what we should be doing with regards to the Middle East - walk away until they sort their own **** out like the rest of us had to.

[Rohirrim]

Not to mention the massive reduction in carbon emissions. I would sure like to save the world's coral reefs if at all possible.

[lonestar]

was in Germany a few weeks ago and marveled at all the SVCs on roofs over there almost all houses have them.. even the farm houses and barns..

However in snow storms well not very effective nor are they on cloudy days and folks that is a lot of the time over there ..

their government mandated it and is paying loads of money to entice folks to instal them as well as forcing the "grid" to pay them for the energy they produce..

as for storage cells not sure how many folks have been in Germany homes but there is not place to put a bunch of batteries..

and I'd guess that 90% of the homes that have refrigerators have what most folks would call Dormitory size units.. If that is an indication of the amount of space they have in their homes a bunch of batteries is not happening..


I have explored doing this on my house and having about 350 days a year of full sunlight light I could be energy independent during the day for a measly 45K which would take 23 years to pay back over current electric prices.. As it stand s right now EP electric will only pay me for extra energy at about 25% of what I pay for it..

I'm waiting till it is more affordable.. get a rebate more than there is AND they force EP Elec to pay me more for my investment..

[chadta]

I have explored doing this on my house and having about 350 days a year of full sunlight light I could be energy independent during the day for a measly 45K which would take 23 years to pay back over current electric prices.. As it stand s right now EP electric will only pay me for extra energy at about 25% of what I pay for it..

I'm waiting till it is more affordable.. get a rebate more than there is AND they force EP Elec to pay me more for my investment..

I have 3 guys prepping me a quote right now, ill share them when i get them, we had a discussion the other night becasue a neighbour thinks that the government here pays for it totally, we had to prove the the ROI was quite a few years.

Altho if it was reasonable i would do it.

[chadta]

just got one back now, here's the quote

Site Notes
Orientation: Good: The house has a SE sun exposure.
Shading: Reasonable: There may be some afternoon and morning shading.
Other Notes: We’ve assumed a 10% shading factor for the site conditions below. Further onsite shading analysis will be required.
System Options
Overall Site Efficiency 84%
System Size:5kW-6.25kW(max. Power DC of 20to25modules)
System Cost:-(turnkey, tax incl.) $25,500 - $30,875
Annual Yield:5,065 kWh-6,331 kWh
Annual Revenue:-$2,781$3,476$

So it would pay for itself in 10 years, provided i keep getting triple the going rate for power I generate, we pay about .30 per kWh but solar and wind generators get .80 from the government, thanks to its "buy greeen" plan.

Im actually seriously thinking about this, specially after my august electrical bill of almost 800 bucks.

[lonestar]

just got one back now, here's the quote

Site Notes
Orientation: Good: The house has a SE sun exposure.
Shading: Reasonable: There may be some afternoon and morning shading.
Other Notes: We’ve assumed a 10% shading factor for the site conditions below. Further onsite shading analysis will be required.
System Options
Overall Site Efficiency 84%
System Size:5kW-6.25kW(max. Power DC of 20to25modules)
System Cost:-(turnkey, tax incl.) $25,500 - $30,875
Annual Yield:5,065 kWh-6,331 kWh
Annual Revenue:-$2,781$3,476$

So it would pay for itself in 10 years, provided i keep getting triple the going rate for power I generate, we pay about .30 per kWh but solar and wind generators get .80 from the government, thanks to its "buy greeen" plan.

Im actually seriously thinking about this, specially after my august electrical bill of almost 800 bucks.

does this include the battery storage for bad days or nights..

[chadta]

does this include the battery storage for bad days or nights..

No, but since I can sell power to the power company at 3 times what I would pay for it, I would still get a chegue at the end of every month and not a bill.

[Mecklomaniac]

just got one back now, here's the quote

Site Notes
Orientation: Good: The house has a SE sun exposure.
Shading: Reasonable: There may be some afternoon and morning shading.
Other Notes: We’ve assumed a 10% shading factor for the site conditions below. Further onsite shading analysis will be required.
System Options
Overall Site Efficiency 84%
System Size:5kW-6.25kW(max. Power DC of 20to25modules)
System Cost:-(turnkey, tax incl.) $25,500 - $30,875
Annual Yield:5,065 kWh-6,331 kWh
Annual Revenue:-$2,781$3,476$

So it would pay for itself in 10 years, provided i keep getting triple the going rate for power I generate, we pay about .30 per kWh but solar and wind generators get .80 from the government, thanks to its "buy greeen" plan.

Im actually seriously thinking about this, specially after my august electrical bill of almost 800 bucks.


I had looked into it a few years back, and at the time the concern for me was the life of the panels. Due to low power rates here (hydro) the payback time was decades, but the expected useful life of the panels was 7 - 10 years.

[Drek]

was in Germany a few weeks ago and marveled at all the SVCs on roofs over there almost all houses have them.. even the farm houses and barns..

However in snow storms well not very effective nor are they on cloudy days and folks that is a lot of the time over there ..

their government mandated it and is paying loads of money to entice folks to instal them as well as forcing the "grid" to pay them for the energy they produce..

as for storage cells not sure how many folks have been in Germany homes but there is not place to put a bunch of batteries..

and I'd guess that 90% of the homes that have refrigerators have what most folks would call Dormitory size units.. If that is an indication of the amount of space they have in their homes a bunch of batteries is not happening..


I have explored doing this on my house and having about 350 days a year of full sunlight light I could be energy independent during the day for a measly 45K which would take 23 years to pay back over current electric prices.. As it stand s right now EP electric will only pay me for extra energy at about 25% of what I pay for it..

I'm waiting till it is more affordable.. get a rebate more than there is AND they force EP Elec to pay me more for my investment..
1. full energy independence shouldn't be the short term goal of residential solar and wind, it needs to be focused on supplementary power to reduce strain on the grid and reliance on nonrenewables which logically will only get more expensive the faster we use them.

2. It is very ****ed up that your utility provider can get away with only paying 25 cents on the dollar for your energy. There needs to be a national requirement for 1:1 buybacks.

3. Obviously banking isn't viable in Europe, but in the U.S. we've got ample room to set up storage options. Regardless, a respectable buy back program would remove a large part of the need.

[Rohirrim]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

[houghtam]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Just like balancing the budget is more important than civil rights.

America is not a business.

[razorwire77]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Ironically, a reliable profit model could be set up around energy that is much more ecologically friendly. Unfortunately, that would require ingenuity and a widespread commitment by all stakeholders (government officials, citizens, etc.)

That ain't happening. At least that's not happening until American/West European lifestyles are drastically impacted by environmental change, food/energy shortages etc.

[lonestar]

1. full energy independence shouldn't be the short term goal of residential solar and wind, it needs to be focused on supplementary power to reduce strain on the grid and reliance on nonrenewables which logically will only get more expensive the faster we use them.

2. It is very ****ed up that your utility provider can get away with only paying 25 cents on the dollar for your energy. There needs to be a national requirement for 1:1 buybacks.

3. Obviously banking isn't viable in Europe, but in the U.S. we've got ample room to set up storage options. Regardless, a respectable buy back program would remove a large part of the need.


but even the grid is affected the same way perhaps not as national as now but the effect of the houses in El Paso unless shipped to other cities will not help the grid whatsoever..

the only thing that will hep it is IF every household does this and major factories also if that happens we will still need the grid to feed those aes a=that do not have 350 full sun days a year..

yes it is jacked up at getting $.25 on the dollar for my solar power and hopefully nationally some how that can change.. Then and only then will be putting a full array on the roof make economic sense to me..

But then I may have to take my solar water (pool) panels off the roof to make rooms for them..


as for the storage options of lead acid batteries and that my friend is how they do it is really not viable even in the states as most houses do not have the room to do this also. .

IMO in my lifetime there will issues for low light days as well as night time not currently available for me..

I have recently remodeled and poured in a ton of money for down the road cost savings.. added r33 to the existing insulation in the roof installed double and in some cases triple paned windows and doors sealed this house up like a space capsule.. installed a new natural gas furnace with a 90-95% efficiency rating and next on the agenda is tank-less water hears or maybe even solar units for inside use..

with a few exceptions of CFL lighting every light in the house is LED bought a new LED TV..

all of the above has reduced my energy footprint by about 40%.. at least dollar wise..

I recycle my water from my AC units (swamp coolers) to use in my back yard planters and my front yard is almost waterless save for a few plants near the covered patio. which further reduces Heat and cooling loses..

I get solar heat in the winter and are shaded for it during the summer..

the only thing I can not justify is spending $35,000 to out solar MVC panels on my roof to save me money during the daytime..

[lonestar]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Yes in my case it is and I'd guess that 98% of Americans and for that matter the world think that way..

It has to be worth my while to do.. force my provider to give me money back at the rate I pay and the solar panels go on the roof next week.. the pay back for the investment is better than what I currently get in the market or CD's..

Since I like 98% of America are not independently wealthy that will have to do..

I've done my part so far.. by investing about $30,000 in energy savings this past two years..

[Mecklomaniac]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HlTxGHn4sH4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


That's really the difference in philosophies. Liberals want to force, price increases to make alternatives more attractive, and subsidize alternatives that are financially nonviable.

Conservatives prefer a more laissez-faire approach and let the market decide. Alternatives that can show good value even if a little more expensive can compete. Early adapters help finance the alternatives until the processes can be leaned out the the costs reduced.

Congress critters from both sides don't follow either approach. They use more of a corrupt crony capitalism. Gives us things like carbon credits, and subsidies for ideas that truly should be left to die. How long are we going to subsidize turning food into fuel with ethanol?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/05/democrats-and-republicans-support-harmful-ethanol-subsidies-for-the-sake-of-votes.html

[Drek]

but even the grid is affected the same way perhaps not as national as now but the effect of the houses in El Paso unless shipped to other cities will not help the grid whatsoever..

And this is why we need a new national smart energy grid. New transmission technology would dramatically reduce transmission costs, and we could easily build a nationwide grid that can share power from one coast to the next.

An electrical engineering professor did a study on this recently and found that the U.S. loses between $50-$100 Billion in production annually due to our shoddy, old energy infrastructure. He also estimated that a full overhaul to a smart grid would cost around $40 Billion.

Yet it still hasn't happened.

[houghtam]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HlTxGHn4sH4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


That's really the difference in philosophies. Liberals want to force, price increases to make alternatives more attractive, and subsidize alternatives that are financially nonviable.

Conservatives prefer a more laissez-faire approach and let the market decide. Alternatives that can show good value even if a little more expensive can compete. Early adapters help finance the alternatives until the processes can be leaned out the the costs reduced.

Congress critters from both sides don't follow either approach. They use more of a corrupt crony capitalism. Gives us things like carbon credits, and subsidies for ideas that truly should be left to die. How long are we going to subsidize turning food into fuel with ethanol?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/05/democrats-and-republicans-support-harmful-ethanol-subsidies-for-the-sake-of-votes.html

A laissez faire approach would have some merit if it were actually true. But the free market approach doesn't work when the market isn't really free. Once the renewable energy sources get the same government subsidies in their work that the non-renewable energy sources get...THEN if they fail, we can truly say, "well, the market decided..."

Until then, it's lip service and refusal to see the way things truly are. Soon there won't be anything left, and those who put renewable energy before mass profits will be the ones looking down on the rest of the world.

[lonestar]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HlTxGHn4sH4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


That's really the difference in philosophies. Liberals want to force, price increases to make alternatives more attractive, and subsidize alternatives that are financially nonviable.

Conservatives prefer a more laissez-faire approach and let the market decide. Alternatives that can show good value even if a little more expensive can compete. Early adapters help finance the alternatives until the processes can be leaned out the the costs reduced.

Congress critters from both sides don't follow either approach. They use more of a corrupt crony capitalism. Gives us things like carbon credits, and subsidies for ideas that truly should be left to die. How long are we going to subsidize turning food into fuel with ethanol?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/05/democrats-and-republicans-support-harmful-ethanol-subsidies-for-the-sake-of-votes.html


yep we have problems I'm one of those folks that say let the markets decide while developing the alternatives shutting down coal fired power plants that are moderns is just plain stupid..

not developing more nuclear plants is also plain dumb.. yes I know of the long term storage issues..

giving us options like getting paid for producing kilowatts on our homes would help a bit..

stifling oil, natural gas and coal production is plain stupid..

the only way to make Americans go the other route is to make them affordable..

Germans have been obedient for ever, as the kings through Hitler told the what to do and they just do it..

As we rebuilt their country after the war there was Marshall law for a long time and frankly they have never become free as we know it in the US..

[lonestar]

A laissez faire approach would have some merit if it were actually true. But the free market approach doesn't work when the market isn't really free. Once the renewable energy sources get the same government subsidies in their work that the non-renewable energy sources get...THEN if they fail, we can truly say, "well, the market decided..."

Until then, it's lip service and refusal to see the way things truly are. Soon there won't be anything left, and those who put renewable energy before mass profits will be the ones looking down on the rest of the world.

really not sure what subsidies your talking about for coal, gas and oil?

or should all those dollars put down a rat hole on solar companies not be considered as subsidies..

[lonestar]

I see those huge windmill vanes and generators traveling down I-10 almost daily.. I'm thinking great alternative energy going to be added to the grid..

then last week when I was picking up my dogs from the kennel on the other side of town the Howl a Day inn.

I see two vanes being transported up the road that leads from Mexico...

As I passed them they were clearly labeled Henhco in Mexico,

had to laugh my ass off now knowing that that subsidized company is making the parts for it in Mexico..

[mhgaffney]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Well -- the smart people in US industry already understand that energy conservation = higher profits.

Amory Lovins has been laying out the case for what he calls the soft energy path since the 1970s. His case was strong to begin with - and has only gotten stronger. Se the link below.

His win win approach is hard to argue with -- which is why former CIA directors, former US secretaries of state, and current CEOs of large oil companies all endorse his work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHOyfyGwpes

[Fedaykin]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

There's a reason even Wal-Mart, bastion of capitalistic greed, is a huge user of alternative energy.

http://az204696.vo.msecnd.net/download/26617/r_4970.jpg

Wal-Mart doesn't give a rats ass about anything but squeezing put the most possible profit.

The "profit problem" with alternative energy is the people in charge profit from dino power.

[tnedator]

was in Germany a few weeks ago and marveled at all the SVCs on roofs over there almost all houses have them.. even the farm houses and barns..


This summer when I was in Germany I was talking to a guy about it and he said that the solar panel program is turning into a nightmare. People who put up the panel are guaranteed a certain rate for any electricity from solar panels on a home or farm building roof.

Unfortunately, this rate is well above the cost of other energy sources. As a result, lots of people installed solar panels, including farmers. In fact, it's so profitable, that many farmers have built barns and other buildings for the SOLE purpose of putting up solar panels. Some of them then use the "barns" to rent space for caravan (RV) storage during the winter or simply leave the barn empty.

To pay for all of this above market solar energy, everyone's electric bill has gone up, and continues to go up as more people/farms put solar panels up. So much so that there is a loud and growing movement demanding that their government renig on the guaranteed solar rates, so that people's electric bills will go back down.

[tnedator]

After I posted that, I figured there must be some articles written on the problem, so I googled "German solar debacle" and the first hit was a blog that linked to this Der Spiegel article:

A Massive Money Pit

Until now, Merkel had consistently touted the environmental sector's "opportunities for exports, development, technology and jobs." But now even members of her own staff are calling it a massive money pit.
New numbers issued by the pro-industry Rhine-Westphalia Institute for Economic Research (RWI) will only add fuel to the fire. The experts calculated the additional costs to consumers after more solar systems were connected to the grid than in any other previous month in December. Under Germany's Renewable Energy Law, each new system qualifies for 20 years of subsidies. A mountain of future payment obligations is beginning to take shape in front of consumers' eyes.

According to the RWI, the solar energy systems connected to the grid in 2011 alone will cost electricity customers about €18 billion in subsidy costs over the next 20 years. "The demand for subsidies is growing and growing," says RWI expert Manuel Frondel. If all commitments to pay subsidies so far are added together, Frondel adds, "we have already exceeded the €100 billion level."

The RWI also expects the green energy surcharge on electricity bills to go up again soon. It is currently 3.59 cents per kilowatt hour of electricity, a number the German government had actually pledged to cap at 3.5 cents. But because of the most recent developments, RWI expert Frondel predicts that the surcharge will soon increase to 4.7 cents per kilowatt hour. For the average family, this would amount to an additional charge of about €200 a year, in addition to the actual cost of electricity. Solar energy has the potential to become the most expensive mistake in German environmental policy. Berlin energy economist Georg Erdmann, a member of the monitoring group on the energy transition appointed by Chancellor Merkel, views the expansion of solar energy as a threat to the planned nuclear phase-out.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/solar-subsidy-sinkhole-re-evaluating-germany-s-blind-faith-in-the-sun-a-809439.html

[houghtam]

"But...the money."

[chadta]

This summer when I was in Germany I was talking to a guy about it and he said that the solar panel program is turning into a nightmare. People who put up the panel are guaranteed a certain rate for any electricity from solar panels on a home or farm building roof.

Unfortunately, this rate is well above the cost of other energy sources. As a result, lots of people installed solar panels, including farmers. In fact, it's so profitable, that many farmers have built barns and other buildings for the SOLE purpose of putting up solar panels. Some of them then use the "barns" to rent space for caravan (RV) storage during the winter or simply leave the barn empty.

To pay for all of this above market solar energy, everyone's electric bill has gone up, and continues to go up as more people/farms put solar panels up. So much so that there is a loud and growing movement demanding that their government renig on the guaranteed solar rates, so that people's electric bills will go back down.

Thats the exact model we are following here in ontario, pay 3 times the going rate for any hydro created, we were promised it would create high paying jobs here, well last time i checked 10 bucks an hour wasnt high paying, and they are on layoff half the time anyhow. Its a total scam.

[lonestar]

This summer when I was in Germany I was talking to a guy about it and he said that the solar panel program is turning into a nightmare. People who put up the panel are guaranteed a certain rate for any electricity from solar panels on a home or farm building roof.

Unfortunately, this rate is well above the cost of other energy sources. As a result, lots of people installed solar panels, including farmers. In fact, it's so profitable, that many farmers have built barns and other buildings for the SOLE purpose of putting up solar panels. Some of them then use the "barns" to rent space for caravan (RV) storage during the winter or simply leave the barn empty.

To pay for all of this above market solar energy, everyone's electric bill has gone up, and continues to go up as more people/farms put solar panels up. So much so that there is a loud and growing movement demanding that their government renig on the guaranteed solar rates, so that people's electric bills will go back down.

Hell I bet teh next time I go over they will have replaced thousands of acres of vineyards to produce solar.

it is after all a year long deal not just a few months and there is little if any labor involved..

Most of the vineyards sell their grapes to big producers of wines anyway.. if they have a bad crop they are screwed for a few years.. this is on all the time..

[tnedator]

Hell I bet teh next time I go over they will have replaced thousands of acres of vineyards to produce solar.

it is after all a year long deal not just a few months and there is little if any labor involved..

Most of the vineyards sell their grapes to big producers of wines anyway.. if they have a bad crop they are screwed for a few years.. this is on all the time..

I've seen fields that were previous growing something, hopps maybe, wine, that are covered in panels. However, I think the "above market rate" subsidy only applies to panels put on buildings -- hence the reason farms are covering fields/pastures with buildings, just so they can put up panels and get the above market rates.

[tnedator]

Hell I bet teh next time I go over they will have replaced thousands of acres of vineyards to produce solar.

it is after all a year long deal not just a few months and there is little if any labor involved..

Most of the vineyards sell their grapes to big producers of wines anyway.. if they have a bad crop they are screwed for a few years.. this is on all the time..

By the way, where in Germany did you go?

[lonestar]

By the way, where in Germany did you go?


Just south of Mannheim and down to wine country near France, black forest mostly..

[lonestar]

I've seen fields that were previous growing something, hopps maybe, wine, that are covered in panels. However, I think the "above market rate" subsidy only applies to panels put on buildings -- hence the reason farms are covering fields/pastures with buildings, just so they can put up panels and get the above market rates.

It surprised me to see the panels on farm buildings out in the middle of nowhere per see.. and even in the little towns all around the country almost all the housing which is mostly what we would call condos two three story type houses with no yards between the houses.. had loads of those panels..

It was explained to me by my cousins that indeed they were getting a return above market value for the electricity which at the time sounded like crap.. since they are apolitical I did not believe the numbers they were saying, it made zero sense to me for a company to lose money on the deal..

What also made zero sense to me as most of the panels are on the east side of the roofing..

One would think that the south would be best since it gets solar almost all the time. or the west since by the time the sun gets to that side most of the panels would be clear of snow from the heat of the day..

For me just give me the same rate I normally pay for it and I'll start construction tomorrow..

[nyuk nyuk]

Part of this is dependent on how effective the panels will be based on local climate as well as the power they produce. This doesn't count the cost of them, either, which historically has been too high.

I don't know why they'd abandon nuclear based on ***ushima (Notice the ***u is censored). Germany isn't earthquake-prone, and you'd think that if anything, they'd have abandoned it after Chernobyl. They at least did get affected by the fallout.

[nyuk nyuk]

Just south of Mannheim and down to wine country near France, black forest mostly..

Nice, would be a good visit. I have a lot of family from there.

[lonestar]

Part of this is dependent on how effective the panels will be based on local climate as well as the power they produce. This doesn't count the cost of them, either, which historically has been too high.

I don't know why they'd abandon nuclear based on ***ushima (Notice the ***u is censored). Germany isn't earthquake-prone, and you'd think that if anything, they'd have abandoned it after Chernobyl. They at least did get affected by the fallout.

Well Geology 101 taught me anywhere there are mountains there have been earthquakes large enough to make said mountains..

Not saying that it will happen again, but the greenies in Germany are almost as big a nut cases as they are here..

IIRC they have the green socialist party there and it has loads of power in government.. Now I may be wrong in that but watching TV news when I could pick up a few words here and there (my German used to be better), they seem to be NUTBALLS..

[nyuk nyuk]

Well Geology 101 taught me anywhere there are mountains there have been earthquakes large enough to make said mountains..

Not saying that it will happen again, but the greenies in Germany are almost as big a nut cases as they are here..

IIRC they have the green socialist party there and it has loads of power in government.. Now I may be wrong in that but watching TV news when I could pick up a few words here and there (my German used to be better), they seem to be NUTBALLS..

Greenies as a whole are nutters if not Luddites. I don't mind the idea of keeping the earth preserved as possible, but some of it is overboard. Germany as a whole is a political basketcase. I've yet to visit there.

Solar power is something that has been very costly to develop. It's a fine idea, but I think Obama is terribly mistaken in his insistence on funding it during a recession. That is a massive waste of money. If you're going to be pushing such pet projects, you should at least wait until the economy sufficiently recovers.

[nyuk nyuk]

On the subject of nuclear power, it was amusing to watch younger people flipping out over ***ushima. Those of us who grew up in the 80s were watching the news when the Chernobyl plume passed over Denver and dropped fallout on us in the rains. My sister's eyes were burning as a result of it as were the eyes of many across the Denver area.

I had some people ignorant enough to tell me that due to that event, I am doomed to get cancer. I have nothing, neither does my sister. Radiation is natural, it's the levels of it that matter, like with so many other things out there. Food we need to survive that contains potassium is naturally radioactive because the atom of potassium is so. We also need the sun for Vitamin D production and calcium synthesis.

[lonestar]

On the subject of nuclear power, it was amusing to watch younger people flipping out over ***ushima. Those of us who grew up in the 80s were watching the news when the Chernobyl plume passed over Denver and dropped fallout on us in the rains. My sister's eyes were burning as a result of it as were the eyes of many across the Denver area.

I had some people ignorant enough to tell me that due to that event, I am doomed to get cancer. I have nothing, neither does my sister. Radiation is natural, it's the levels of it that matter, like with so many other things out there. Food we need to survive that contains potassium is naturally radioactive because the atom of potassium is so. We also need the sun for Vitamin D production and calcium synthesis.

:thumbs:

I'm a firm believer in Nukes I almost was in the Nuke navy on Submarines was schedule to go to Nuke power school.. But opted out at the last minute, one of my more stupid moves.. at the time it was a 6 year commitment for the school, as well as being on a Boomer that went out for 3 month at a time.. or a fast attack that only came in for provisions..


at the time I was a horny guy and had a good looking girlfriend back in Colorado..

Should have went to school as I got a divorce from her 11 years later.. cleaned me out..

ahahahahahaha

[tnedator]

Just south of Mannheim and down to wine country near France, black forest mostly..

Nice. Area. While I like Bayern in terms of beer, food and really friendly people (reality is all of Germany is friendly, Bavarians just tend to be really laid back), the Southwest is also one of my favorites. Rolling hills, vinyards along the Rhein and in the black forest, Spatzle. I typically go to Karlsruhe once a year, and have made trips to other cities in the general area.

[Rohirrim]

Greenies as a whole are nutters if not Luddites. I don't mind the idea of keeping the earth preserved as possible, but some of it is overboard. Germany as a whole is a political basketcase. I've yet to visit there.

Solar power is something that has been very costly to develop. It's a fine idea, but I think Obama is terribly mistaken in his insistence on funding it during a recession. That is a massive waste of money. If you're going to be pushing such pet projects, you should at least wait until the economy sufficiently recovers.

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of chimps on the right who sit on their thumbs watching the arctic ice melt and the world's coral reefs die while arguing that nothing is happening, it's all just natural cycles, and nothing needs to be done. Who are the Luddites, the ones who believe the science, or the ones who work to block any action and call it a hoax? Or the ones like the Kochs, who spend millions to block action for the sole purpose of lining their own pockets while they pollute the world?

"I don't mind the idea of keeping the earth preserved as possible?" What a statement. The arrogance is mind boggling. Almost as distasteful as that classless b**** you celebrate in your avatar. It's not the Earth we're trying to preserve, idiot. The Earth will go on regardless. It's human life. It's animals, who are going extinct at an alarming rate. It's our continued ability to sustain the overpopulation of people we've thoughtlessly put on this planet. It's not all about you and your herd of bleating little sheep who think the only reaction required is to snug up a good set of blinders and cover their ears in the hopes that it will all go away.

Here's one little thing we are seeing all over the globe: An explosion of jellyfish. How would you like to live in a world where the seas are dominated by jellyfish? See? The Earth is not going anywhere. Species diversity is. Crop failures will multiply. Droughts. Floods. The Earth doesn't care. One of the major factors that drove the Arab Spring was the failure of the wheat crop in Pakistan due to floods. That's only a taste of what will come. Imagine the failure of an entire rice crop in some SE Asian region where hundreds of millions live? We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, but fortunately, you "...don't mind keeping the earth preserved as possible." :rofl:

[barryr]

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of chimps on the right who sit on their thumbs watching the arctic ice melt and the world's coral reefs die while arguing that nothing is happening, it's all just natural cycles, and nothing needs to be done. Who are the Luddites, the ones who believe the science, or the ones who work to block any action and call it a hoax? Or the ones like the Kochs, who spend millions to block action for the sole purpose of lining their own pockets while they pollute the world?

"I don't mind the idea of keeping the earth preserved as possible?" What a statement. The arrogance is mind boggling. Almost as distasteful as that classless b**** you celebrate in your avatar. It's not the Earth we're trying to preserve, idiot. The Earth will go on regardless. It's human life. It's animals, who are going extinct at an alarming rate. It's our continued ability to sustain the overpopulation of people we've thoughtlessly put on this planet. It's not all about you and your herd of bleating little sheep who think the only reaction required is to snug up a good set of blinders and cover their ears in the hopes that it will all go away.

Here's one little thing we are seeing all over the globe: An explosion of jellyfish. How would you like to live in a world where the seas are dominated by jellyfish? See? The Earth is not going anywhere. Species diversity is. Crop failures will multiply. Droughts. Floods. The Earth doesn't care. One of the major factors that drove the Arab Spring was the failure of the wheat crop in Pakistan due to floods. That's only a taste of what will come. Imagine the failure of an entire rice crop in some SE Asian region where hundreds of millions live? We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, but fortunately, you "...don't mind keeping the earth preserved as possible." :rofl:

While we have idiot liberals who actually believe anything that could be done would really make that much of an impact about it other than further destroy an economy they are ruining as it is.

[Rohirrim]

While we have idiot liberals who actually believe anything that could be done would really make that much of an impact about it other than further destroy an economy they are ruining as it is.

Man! Thick as a brick. Let's say the droughts continue on and on, and spread? Let's say there are more major crop failures? What does that do to the world economy? Let's say fewer and fewer people can be sustained in some areas so they begin to migrate elsewhere? Do you think anybody is going to be interested in sustaining a global corporatist economy that continues to funnel wealth to a minuscule sliver at the top? I doubt it.

Our economic model is wrong. We must adapt to a changing world, or fall. Same as it ever was. Like Darwin showed, adapt or die. We might still have time to reduce carbon emissions and make a difference. I guarantee you, sticking your head in the sand isn't going to fix ****.

[lonestar]

While we have idiot liberals who actually believe anything that could be done would really make that much of an impact about it other than further destroy an economy they are ruining as it is.

and this will be met with disdain from the Green weenies..

if we use coal in clean burning plants until we get have the technology in place to make the transition what is the problem..

because it may take another year or two? these ****ing morons need to suck it up and get a grip on life.

the world does not rotate around the few green weenies out there..

While I would love to have it their way it is not cost effective at this moment to do it..

The market place given some incentives by BIG government will step it up..

But so far it (money) mostly has been wasted by nobama and his lackeys..

I applaud that Germany put something into place but so far it does not look like they did it correctly and will ultimately cost them all more..

Just maybe there is an in between spot we can all meet on..

[houghtam]

and this will be met with disdain from the Green weenies..

if we use coal in clean burning plants until we get have the technology in place to make the transition what is the problem..

because it may take another year or two? these ****ing morons need to suck it up and get a grip on life.

the world does not rotate around the few green weenies out there..

While I would love to have it their way it is not cost effective at this moment to do it..

The market place given some incentives by BIG government will step it up..

But so far it (money) mostly has been wasted by nobama and his lackeys..

I applaud that Germany put something into place but so far it does not look like they did it correctly and will ultimately cost them all more..

Just maybe there is an in between spot we can all meet on..

LOL clean coal.

No such thing.

[Rohirrim]

and this will be met with disdain from the Green weenies..

if we use coal in clean burning plants until we get have the technology in place to make the transition what is the problem..

because it may take another year or two? these ****ing morons need to suck it up and get a grip on life.

the world does not rotate around the few green weenies out there..

While I would love to have it their way it is not cost effective at this moment to do it..

The market place given some incentives by BIG government will step it up..

But so far it (money) mostly has been wasted by nobama and his lackeys..

I applaud that Germany put something into place but so far it does not look like they did it correctly and will ultimately cost them all more..

Just maybe there is an in between spot we can all meet on..

Coal? That's ridiculous. Natural gas could serve as an interim fuel, but coal? That's like throwing gas on the fire.

[houghtam]

Coal? That's ridiculous. Natural gas could serve as an interim fuel, but coal? That's like throwing gas on the fire.

My right wing ideologue brother who stands for everything I hate about Republicans is a manager at one of the public power companies in Michigan, which operates several coal plants in the area. He and I disagree on just about everything...except coal.

No such thing as clean coal. Never has been, never will be. There is absolutely no way to make coal "clean".

[El Minion]

Man! Thick as a brick. Let's say the droughts continue on and on, and spread? Let's say there are more major crop failures? What does that do to the world economy? Let's say fewer and fewer people can be sustained in some areas so they begin to migrate elsewhere? Do you think anybody is going to be interested in sustaining a global corporatist economy that continues to funnel wealth to a minuscule sliver at the top? I doubt it.

Our economic model is wrong. We must adapt to a changing world, or fall. Same as it ever was. Like Darwin showed, adapt or die. We might still have time to reduce carbon emissions and make a difference. I guarantee you, sticking your head in the sand isn't going to fix ****.

Bacon, pork shortage 'now unavoidable,' industry group says (http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-pork-bacon-shortage-20120924,0,5901787.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fmostviewed+%28L.A.+ Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories%29)

By Tiffany Hsu

September 24, 2012, 11:10 a.m.

Might want to get your fill of ham this year, because "a world shortage of pork and bacon next year is now unavoidable," according to an industry trade group.

Blame the drought conditions that blazed through the corn and soybean crop this year. Less feed led to herds declining across the European Union “at a significant rate,” according to the National Pig Assn. in Britain (http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/Pages/Press_Releases.html).

And the trend “is being mirrored around the world,” according to a release (hat tip (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5a79232-0343-11e2-a284-00144feabdc0.html#axzz27V8bqZiP) to the Financial Times).

In the second half of next year, the number of slaughtered pigs could fall 10%, doubling the price of European pork, according to the release.

The trade group urged supermarkets to pay pig farmers a fair price for the meat to help cover the drought-related losses.

In U.S. warehouses, pork supply soared to a record last month, rising 31% to 580.8 million pounds at the end of August from a year earlier, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (http://www.latimes.com/topic/science-technology/agricultural-research-technology/u.s.-department-of-agriculture-ORGOV0000241.topic).

The surge came as farmers scaled down their herds as feeding the animals became increasingly expensive.

In July, global food prices leaped 10% (http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-world-food-prices-rose-10-percent-july-pushed-by-midwest-drought-20120830,0,1812447.story) from the month before, according to the World Bank (http://www.latimes.com/topic/economy-business-finance/world-bank-group-ORGOV000265.topic). Maize and wheat jumped 25% while soybeans rose 17%.

[houghtam]

In July, global food prices leaped 10% (http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-world-food-prices-rose-10-percent-july-pushed-by-midwest-drought-20120830,0,1812447.story) from the month before, according to the World Bank (http://www.latimes.com/topic/economy-business-finance/world-bank-group-ORGOV000265.topic). Maize and wheat jumped 25% while soybeans rose 17%.

Interesting. Good ole Meck77 seemed to think it was because of the European financial collapse.

[Fedaykin]

I love all the rough and tumble, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps folks here that cave more quickly than the cowardly lion in the face of the challenge of building an energy infrastructure that fulfills our energy needs and doesn't destroy our environment.

You're all posers. Not a single one of you actually embodies the qualities of American Exceptionalism and entrepreneurship that you spout off about all the time and claim that liberals lack.

Why should we work toward alternative energy -- because, omg, it's hard! Let's just burn more dead dinos and pray everything works out.

[lonestar]

My right wing ideologue brother who stands for everything I hate about Republicans is a manager at one of the public power companies in Michigan, which operates several coal plants in the area. He and I disagree on just about everything...except coal.

No such thing as clean coal. Never has been, never will be. There is absolutely no way to make coal "clean".

Well my brother worked for a coal powered generation plant in Colorado and he begs to differ with you..

[lonestar]

I love all the rough and tumble, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps folks here that cave more quickly than the cowardly lion in the face of the challenge of building an energy infrastructure that fulfills our energy needs and doesn't destroy our environment.

You're all posers. Not a single one of you actually embodies the qualities of American Exceptionalism and entrepreneurship that you spout off about all the time and claim that liberals lack.

Why should we work toward alternative energy -- because, omg, it's hard! Let's just burn more dead dinos and pray everything works out.

you sound like an old woman with her panties in a bunch..

like the far left has a better answer than raising the price on everything so no one can afford to heat their homes, drive their cars or in some case have feed to eat..

Instead of working out a solution to merging all this together lets just do it YOUR way.. **** the rest of the us...

Green weenies nothing in the world worse than Y'all..

[houghtam]

you sound like an old woman with her panties in a bunch..

like the far left has a better answer than raising the price on everything so no one can afford to heat their homes, drive their cars or in some case have feed to eat..

Instead of working out a solution to merging all this together lets just do it YOUR way.. **** the rest of the us...

Green weenies nothing in the world worse than Y'all..

Once again a conservative suggests a compromise as if both arguments have equal weight.

[lonestar]

Once again a conservative suggests a compromise as if both arguments have equal weight.

once again a green weenie liberal is telling the world that his argument has equal weight..

[houghtam]

once again a green weenie liberal is telling the world that his argument has equal weight..

No, it has more weight.