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View Full Version : Radar Defense? What the Heck is it?


ghwk
09-18-2012, 09:01 PM
So Pat Kirwan on Sirius' NFL network referred to Nolan's defense as the radar defense and said other teams will be using it. So what is it and did Manning have invisibility cloak in the second half to defeat it?

SoDak Bronco
09-18-2012, 09:11 PM
Yeah I heard Pat talking about it as well. Radar defense is basically not lining up presnap and having the front seven all around the LOS but not showing who is rushing/dropping into coverage.

Missouribronc
09-18-2012, 09:15 PM
Fancy name for disguising coverages.

Atlanta did a great job of it last night. Changed up coverages on nearly every play. Confused Mannng early, confused the wide receivers later.

ghwk
09-18-2012, 09:18 PM
Gotta be some way to exploit that.

Bronco Rob
09-18-2012, 09:19 PM
Props to Nolan (Thanks to McHoodie for chasing him off we had a top 10 defense) good luck fooling Peyton twice.

bpc
09-18-2012, 09:21 PM
Basically you have two guys in a stance and then a myriad of guys float around in back 9, often around the LOS, and they move around a lot. It's supposed to cause confusion and mess up blocking schemes.

The way to beat it is power run the football right down the field. Low man wins and when you have 9 guys standing up, it's hard to anchor and hold point.

Swedish Extrovert
09-18-2012, 09:21 PM
Gotta be some way to exploit that.

I'm thinking that because of all the movement, this defense would be terrible against a power run game.

Swedish Extrovert
09-18-2012, 09:21 PM
Basically you have two guys in a stance and then a myriad of guys float around in back 9, often around the LOS, and they move around a lot. It's supposed to cause confusion and mess up blocking schemes.

The way to beat it is power run the football right down the field. Low man wins and when you have 9 guys standing up, it's hard to anchor and hold point.

Exactly.

SoCalBronco
09-18-2012, 09:26 PM
This has also been referred to as the "Psycho" type of front, where there is a ton of shifting and movement pre-snap with no clear indication of down lineman vs. stand-up backers etc.

Chris Brown at his great Smart Football blog wrote a very nice blog post about this style of defense awhile back and the types of things that can be done to combat it.

See here: http://smartfootball.com/gameplanning/attacking-psycho-fronts-and-other-blitz-heavy-defensive-looks

The suggestion of slide protection is a good idea for pass pro, that way you aren't locked into trying to block (and chase) a specific man in the front. The idea about focusing on the perimeter is also a good one.

I would add a few things to his thoughts: He suggests generally running the ball at it, but I would also note try to run the ball on "first sound". What I mean by that is don't let them start moving and shifting and wait till the third or fourth "hut" to snap the ball. Don't give them the time to start running all that stuff. Snap it on the first sound before they start playing that game. They're either immediately in position or not. I would also add that while he recommends the Trap, I think a Draw might be a good idea as well. That way you don't worry about the pre-snap stuff. You have your lineman think only about giving the look of pass protection for a count or two after the snap and by the time they are ready to get upfield, it will be clear which defenders will be in which lanes, since you have to expose what you are truly doing post-snap.

I would also suggest going 4 wide and having HUGE splits between the offensive tackle and the slot reciever. Reason? It will force the defense to reveal their structure and contour honestly. Either the OLB is going to stay in the front, "split the difference" or cover down on the slot reciever. He cannot go from covering down to going back into the front and out of it. If the splits are really big, he has to declare himself. If he's going to stay in the front and they cover down with the safety instead, then I don't really care what's going on in the front. It's cosmetic. We know there is 1 safety high and there are only a limited amount of coverages that you can run from that look. By contrast, if the OLB has to cover down, then he can't play these games in the front and you also have favorable box numbers for the run game. Force the OLB's to declare their position. If they stay in the front and or "split the difference" with just a half field safety above the slot reciever, then we can work some of the bubble screens and stuff that Brown discusses. IMO, its very important to have really wide splits between the OT and the inside WR against this look to horizontally stretch the defense out.



In any event, Denver adjusted well after awhile to what Atlanta is doing, we got the no-huddle going eventually. I thought it was especially interesting when it was noted early in the game that when we were running plays with a huddle, we had completed 7 out of our first 8 throws (and were 0 for 3 in no-huddle to start), so the suggestion that we were solely befuddled by this wrinkle is not accurate. We were trying to force feed something that wasn't fully clicking immediately and when we were running our base offense at a normal rhthym, we were doing fine.........regardless of what the defense was doing.

NFLBRONCO
09-18-2012, 09:37 PM
This has also been referred to as the "Psycho" type of front, where there is a ton of shifting and movement pre-snap with no clear indication of down lineman vs. stand-up backers etc.

Chris Brown at his great Smart Football blog wrote a very nice blog post about this style of defense awhile back and the types of things that can be done to combat it.

See here: http://smartfootball.com/gameplanning/attacking-psycho-fronts-and-other-blitz-heavy-defensive-looks

The suggestion of slide protection is a good idea for pass pro, that way you aren't locked into trying to block (and chase) a specific man in the front. The idea about focusing on the perimeter is also a good one.

I would add a few things to his thoughts: He suggests generally running the ball at it, but I would also note try to run the ball on "first sound". What I mean by that is don't let them start moving and shifting and wait till the third or fourth "hut" to snap the ball. Don't give them the time to start running all that stuff. Snap it on the first sound before they start playing that game. They're either immediately in position or not. I would also add that while he recommends the Trap, I think a Draw might be a good idea as well. That way you don't worry about the pre-snap stuff. You have your lineman think only about giving the look of pass protection for a count or two after the snap and by the time they are ready to get upfield, it will be clear which defenders will be in which lanes, since you have to expose what you are truly doing post-snap.

I would also suggest going 4 wide and having HUGE splits between the offensive tackle and the slot reciever. Reason? It will force the defense to reveal their structure and contour honestly. Either the OLB is going to stay in the front, "split the difference" or cover down on the slot reciever. He cannot go from covering down to going back into the front and out of it. If the splits are really big, he has to declare himself. If he's going to stay in the front and they cover down with the safety instead, then I don't really care what's going on in the front. It's cosmetic. We know there is 1 safety high and there are only a limited amount of coverages that you can run from that look. By contrast, if the OLB has to cover down, then he can't play these games in the front and you also have favorable box numbers for the run game. Force the OLB's to declare their position.

In any event, Denver adjusted well after awhile to what Atlanta is doing, we got the no-huddle going eventually. I thought it was especially interesting when it was noted early in the game that when we were running plays with a huddle, we had completed 7 out of our first 8 throws (and were 0 for 3 in no-huddle to start), so the suggestion that we were solely befuddled by this wrinkle is not accurate. We were trying to force feed something that wasn't fully clicking immediately and when we were running our base offense at a normal rhthym, we were doing fine.........regardless of what the defense was doing.

I think if Manning just dumped to the check down in 1st qtr this hoopla of this D never would have happened. I think he tried too hard to impress and forced things early. I think deep down he's trying too hard to prove he's back instead of just playing. I think the more games we play the less he'll think about health and wing it,

Cmac821
09-18-2012, 09:48 PM
sounds like the 1-5-5 prowl on madden, fun for zone blitzes

Missouribronc
09-18-2012, 09:50 PM
I didn't see that defense from Atlanta.

They were playing a pretty straight forward 4-3 at the snap and then modifying it from there. The "psycho" defense wasn't employed last night as far as I could tell.

Atlanta just disguised coverages well and mixed coverages up.

Vegas_Bronco
09-18-2012, 10:14 PM
I think if Manning just dumped to the check down in 1st qtr this hoopla of this D never would have happened. I think he tried too hard to impress and forced things early. I think deep down he's trying too hard to prove he's back instead of just playing. I think the more games we play the less he'll think about health and wing it,

This.

SoCalBronco
09-18-2012, 10:17 PM
I didn't see that defense from Atlanta.

They were playing a pretty straight forward 4-3 at the snap and then modifying it from there. The "psycho" defense wasn't employed last night as far as I could tell.

Atlanta just disguised coverages well and mixed coverages up.

There was secondary coverage disguise as well, including having the S in the box and then at the snap morphing into a four deep zone on one of the INT's, but they did psycho stuff as well, especially in the beginning of the game with movement in the front.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-18-2012, 10:20 PM
Why not quick snap while they are dancing around all tarded.

Xenos
09-18-2012, 10:45 PM
So Pat Kirwan on Sirius' NFL network referred to Nolan's defense as the radar defense and said other teams will be using it. So what is it and did Manning have invisibility cloak in the second half to defeat it?
I wonder if it's the same type of defense that SD used against Peyton whenever they play him. Look at the 2007 game as an example where Peyton also threw 3 interceptions in the first quarter. The main difference I suppose is that Stephen Cooper was essentially the Peyton of the defense, and he would also audible whenever Peyton audible in order to cause confusion for the latter. Didn't get a chance to see if Weatherspoon did the same thing.

TD4HOF
09-18-2012, 10:48 PM
Gregg Easterbrook has been referring to this as the "Times Square" defense for awhile now.

boltaneer
09-18-2012, 11:26 PM
I wonder if it's the same type of defense that SD used against Peyton whenever they play him. Look at the 2007 game as an example where Peyton also threw 3 interceptions in the first quarter. The main difference I suppose is that Stephen Cooper was essentially the Peyton of the defense, and he would also audible whenever Peyton audible in order to cause confusion for the latter. Didn't get a chance to see if Weatherspoon did the same thing.

It seems similar to what the Chargers have been doing to Peyton over the years. Basically, you show one look early and after Peyton starts barking out an audible in response to what he sees, you shift to the real formation. I don't know why Peyton always continued to play that game with the Chargers. If he started quick snapping it, he would have caught the defense in the wrong position.

Anyway, I did notice their LB doing some audibles here and there but nothing like what Cooper always did.

BTW, Cooper said that a lot of the times, he was just barking out fake audibles in an attempt to confuse Manning. Guess it worked pretty good. :P

Raider Bill
09-19-2012, 06:49 AM
With my Pop Warner team we will run a wedge play on first sound until they stop dancing around. My Qb will try and time the first sound to when they are out of position or moving backwards.

TheReverend
09-19-2012, 06:58 AM
Radar defense is 2 point stance in gaps, ftr and not what people in this thread are claiming it to be LOL

It has no more to do with disguising coverages than a traditional 4-3.

55CrushEm
09-19-2012, 07:10 AM
Why not quick snap...
This.

... while they are dancing around all tarded.
Ha!

milehighJC
09-19-2012, 08:38 AM
This has also been referred to as the "Psycho" type of front, where there is a ton of shifting and movement pre-snap with no clear indication of down lineman vs. stand-up backers etc.

Chris Brown at his great Smart Football blog wrote a very nice blog post about this style of defense awhile back and the types of things that can be done to combat it.

See here: http://smartfootball.com/gameplanning/attacking-psycho-fronts-and-other-blitz-heavy-defensive-looks

The suggestion of slide protection is a good idea for pass pro, that way you aren't locked into trying to block (and chase) a specific man in the front. The idea about focusing on the perimeter is also a good one.

I would add a few things to his thoughts: He suggests generally running the ball at it, but I would also note try to run the ball on "first sound". What I mean by that is don't let them start moving and shifting and wait till the third or fourth "hut" to snap the ball. Don't give them the time to start running all that stuff. Snap it on the first sound before they start playing that game. They're either immediately in position or not. I would also add that while he recommends the Trap, I think a Draw might be a good idea as well. That way you don't worry about the pre-snap stuff. You have your lineman think only about giving the look of pass protection for a count or two after the snap and by the time they are ready to get upfield, it will be clear which defenders will be in which lanes, since you have to expose what you are truly doing post-snap.

I would also suggest going 4 wide and having HUGE splits between the offensive tackle and the slot reciever. Reason? It will force the defense to reveal their structure and contour honestly. Either the OLB is going to stay in the front, "split the difference" or cover down on the slot reciever. He cannot go from covering down to going back into the front and out of it. If the splits are really big, he has to declare himself. If he's going to stay in the front and they cover down with the safety instead, then I don't really care what's going on in the front. It's cosmetic. We know there is 1 safety high and there are only a limited amount of coverages that you can run from that look. By contrast, if the OLB has to cover down, then he can't play these games in the front and you also have favorable box numbers for the run game. Force the OLB's to declare their position. If they stay in the front and or "split the difference" with just a half field safety above the slot reciever, then we can work some of the bubble screens and stuff that Brown discusses. IMO, its very important to have really wide splits between the OT and the inside WR against this look to horizontally stretch the defense out.



In any event, Denver adjusted well after awhile to what Atlanta is doing, we got the no-huddle going eventually. I thought it was especially interesting when it was noted early in the game that when we were running plays with a huddle, we had completed 7 out of our first 8 throws (and were 0 for 3 in no-huddle to start), so the suggestion that we were solely befuddled by this wrinkle is not accurate. We were trying to force feed something that wasn't fully clicking immediately and when we were running our base offense at a normal rhthym, we were doing fine.........regardless of what the defense was doing.

Nice read... Will be interesting to see if other teams try this against us now that Atlanta had so much success with it in the 1st Q, but as pointed out, the Broncos did adjust well later in the game. One of the suggested strategies was screens... I would have to go back and look at the game again, but seems to me that screens were working well as the game wore on.

I give a lot of credit to ATL - the came out with a good wrinkle, and it worked at least for a while. I originally thought we would see a lot more of the "Psycho", but the more I think about it, the less likely I think that is. Dont think the Broncos will get fooled again.

Bmore Manning
09-19-2012, 08:54 AM
It seems similar to what the Chargers have been doing to Peyton over the years. Basically, you show one look early and after Peyton starts barking out an audible in response to what he sees, you shift to the real formation. I don't know why Peyton always continued to play that game with the Chargers. If he started quick snapping it, he would have caught the defense in the wrong position.

Anyway, I did notice their LB doing some audibles here and there but nothing like what Cooper always did.

BTW, Cooper said that a lot of the times, he was just barking out fake audibles in an attempt to confuse Manning. Guess it worked pretty good. :P

I guess it hasn't worked to well for your Super Bowl aspirations huh?

boltaneer
09-19-2012, 09:35 AM
I guess it hasn't worked to well for your Super Bowl aspirations huh?

Are you the new KCStud? Ha!

Check Peyton Manning's lifetime stats and record against the Chargers. That's all I'm saying.

Also, relevant to the upcoming game, Wade Phillips was the DC who first had success against Manning here in SD.

Agamemnon
09-19-2012, 12:20 PM
There's nothing special about this kind of defense. It exists specifically to combat QB's who are pre-snap masters. I'm sure Manning has seen that kind of thing many, many times. Spread formations and runs off of quick snaps usually counter it fine. It's not why we struggled.

Agamemnon
09-19-2012, 12:23 PM
Radar defense is 2 point stance in gaps, ftr and not what people in this thread are claiming it to be LOL

It has no more to do with disguising coverages than a traditional 4-3.

I have no idea what the Radar defense is, but talk of disguising coverages and moving defenders around pre-snap made me roll my eyes. Teams have been doing that against Manning for years, and it rarely works.

TheReverend
09-19-2012, 12:34 PM
I have no idea what the Radar defense is, but talk of disguising coverages and moving defenders around pre-snap made me roll my eyes. Teams have been doing that against Manning for years, and it rarely works.

It doesn't hurt. Frankly I'm not certain why DC's don't things like that in EVERY game against EVERY QB.

Anyway, I have tons of respect for Kirwan, but Nolan only employed a few elements of an actual Radar defense, and even then only sparingly.