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View Full Version : Is it time to put Ronnie Hillman in as #2 RB?


Pontius Pirate
09-17-2012, 09:46 PM
Simple question

dsmoot
09-17-2012, 09:48 PM
Why do that? So I can watch everyone here criticize him for rookie mistakes.

broncocalijohn
09-17-2012, 09:48 PM
If he was scratched for the game, I doubt it unless it is to duplicate what Moreno cannot do. If not, Ball is #2.

dsmoot
09-17-2012, 09:51 PM
I wish I could see one thing that Moreno can do better than Ball

The Joker
09-17-2012, 09:52 PM
Like it or not, we won't see Hillman until they're confident he can pick up the blitz.

Pity, because Moreno absolutely ****ing sucks as a runner.

Jetland
09-17-2012, 10:05 PM
Like it or not, we won't see Hillman until they're confident he can pick up the blitz.

Pity, because Moreno absolutely ****ing sucks as a runner.

blitz pickup wont matter now moreno is basically done look for hillman rest of season

Kaylore
09-17-2012, 10:11 PM
All the RB's are looking slow and lousy. We needed a spark.

DBroncos4life
09-17-2012, 10:12 PM
2nd string? Lets just get him Active first.

oubronco
09-17-2012, 10:12 PM
We need some speed on this offense

Turd_Ferguson
09-17-2012, 10:14 PM
All the RB's are looking slow and lousy. We needed a spark.

While he didn't look fast, McGahee had 113 with 2 rushing TDs and several big runs. I wouldn't really say he looked "lousy. Also got those numbers in a game in which they were playing from behind for the entire game.

ozomulsion
09-17-2012, 10:14 PM
blitz pickup wont matter now moreno is basically done look for hillman rest of season

Did you post this after he fumbled? One fumble, and he's done!!!! done done done lol Hillman wasn't even active, dork.

The Joker
09-17-2012, 10:16 PM
All the RB's are looking slow and lousy. We needed a spark.

All of them?

McGahee went for over 100 yards and 2 TD's with over 5 yards a carry!!

Hillman should be the prototypical change of pace back, give him 5-10 touches a game.

maher_tyler
09-17-2012, 10:18 PM
All the RB's are looking slow and lousy. We needed a spark.

McGahee is still a beast...maybe lost a couple of steps but the power, hitting the holes and breaking tackles is still there.

The Joker
09-17-2012, 10:18 PM
blitz pickup wont matter now moreno is basically done look for hillman rest of season

Absolutely blitz pickup will matter, protecting Manning is a huge part of our RB's job description.

If it wasn't Hillman would be in there already.

Jetland
09-17-2012, 10:18 PM
Did you post this after he fumbled? One fumble, and he's done!!!! done done done lol Hillman wasn't even active, dork.

I posted this after after watching his NFL life plus one fumble

errand
09-17-2012, 10:20 PM
Doesn't mater what anyone on here thinks...unless one of us is John Fox

NFLBRONCO
09-17-2012, 10:21 PM
We need some speed on this offense

Yep I been screaming about it for years. In games like this lack of speed kills us

Jekyll15Hyde
09-17-2012, 10:23 PM
I would pay money to see him inactive for just 1 week

The Joker
09-17-2012, 10:24 PM
Knowshon has 8 carries for 15 yards on the season.

He sucks immensely as a runner.

NUB
09-17-2012, 11:18 PM
Moreno has been largely invisible his whole career. Barring a few spikes in production vs. the Chiefs, he has done so little it is something of a headscratcher that he keeps getting on the field. I think even his most ardent of supporters have abandoned ship now.

maven
09-17-2012, 11:23 PM
All the RB's are looking slow and lousy. We needed a spark.

Does Denver have an ELITE runner? No

Has Willis done a very good job? Yes

Would love to see Hillman get into the game somehow. Is it his youth and inexperience? has to be. He just turned the legal age of drinking the other day.

Armchair Bronco
09-17-2012, 11:24 PM
Know-show "Touch Me And I Fall Down and Go Boom Boom" Moreno

Action
09-18-2012, 02:23 AM
It's amazing... some of you have been watching football for how long and still haven't come to the realization that running the ball is not just about the RB.

Atwater His Ass
09-18-2012, 04:00 AM
Moreno is pretty horrible. He dances too much and doesn't have the power to consistently move the pile after he's danced himself in a tight spot.

Ball should be the clear #2 at this point. At least he can hit a hole and fall forward for a few yards.

BowlenBall
09-18-2012, 05:00 AM
Moreno is pretty horrible. He dances too much and doesn't have the power to consistently move the pile after he's danced himself in a tight spot.

Ball should be the clear #2 at this point. At least he can hit a hole and fall forward for a few yards.

Fun Fact: the little black girl in this video is a young Knowshon Moreno.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iz8yg9MYf8Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

backup qb
09-18-2012, 05:19 AM
Hell, bring back Gaston Green. Can't be worse than Knowsho

go_broncos
09-18-2012, 05:22 AM
Moreno's fumble is killer..Should have cut him long time back.

BowlenBall
09-18-2012, 06:23 AM
Rod Bernstine is better than Moreno... RIGHT NOW!

Garcia Bronco
09-18-2012, 06:31 AM
John Fox does not trust rookies.

Garcia Bronco
09-18-2012, 06:32 AM
Moreno is pretty horrible. He dances too much and doesn't have the power to consistently move the pile after he's danced himself in a tight spot.

Ball should be the clear #2 at this point. At least he can hit a hole and fall forward for a few yards.

His dancing actually causes holding penalties.

socalorado
09-18-2012, 06:39 AM
If you look at the stats, Slowshon has 46,000 rushing yards and 687 TDs.
Really, hes a beast, but alot of fans just dont realize it.

No really.... hes freakin really good.
Seriously. The guy is just a monster of productivity.

TheChamp24
09-18-2012, 07:21 AM
One thing I liked about Shanahan is, if you fumbled the ball, it would be awhile before you saw the field routinely again. He freakin hated fumblers.
I think we should see what Hillman can do, he was a relatively high draft pick, get him out there.

Beantown Bronco
09-18-2012, 08:34 AM
What difference will it make if he only gets 2 or 3 carries a game like the guy he'd be replacing?

swaiy
09-18-2012, 09:16 AM
I read a report saying Hillman is recovered from his hamstring injury and that he is being held back because of the mental aspect of the game.

BowlenBall
09-18-2012, 09:32 AM
I read a report that says Moreno sucks.

DENVERDUI55
09-18-2012, 09:34 AM
If it meant shipping slowshon down the road I'm all for it.

broncosteven
09-18-2012, 09:36 AM
Where is the HELL ****ING YES! option?

BowlenBall
09-19-2012, 10:58 PM
Bump.

50 in favor of Hillman to 5 in favor of Moreno (with 3 abstaining). Broncos Nation has spoken.

razorwire77
09-19-2012, 11:16 PM
My guess is he's not there in pass protection yet. I think it's baby steps forward. Maybe he gets activated this week and nabs a carry or two.

ozomulsion
09-20-2012, 12:18 AM
Throughout his career he averages more yards per catch than almost every running back in the NFL, yet we're rarely using him in the passing game. That pass he caught in the fourth quarter, then hurdled the defender to get a first & goal was the one of the main reasons we got that 3rd TD. Why aren't we using him more in the passing game?

broncocalijohn
09-20-2012, 12:31 AM
until he is ready for prime time, it isnt happening. He needs to be activated for a game for us to know that he is getting better. Maybe we will see more Ball this weekend.

Nwp-Apap
09-20-2012, 12:52 AM
Bump.

50 in favor of Hillman to 5 in favor of Moreno (with 3 abstaining). Broncos Nation has spoken.

The uneducated have spoken. I don't know why Knowshon was nominated to be the whipping boy, when plenty of his teammates have done worse.

The lack of maturity, reason, and objectivity in this thread is almost comical. You cannot be so hypocritical. Sure, call out Moreno for his mistakes, but don't turn a blind eye to the other players' mistakes.

I feel like many people dislike him just to dislike him, and refuse to see any good in him, why? It is obvious he is talented, and obvious he has gotten the short end of the stick with the OL's blocking at times.

You can bring up faults, yes he has fumbled. But his fumbles per touch, very low. His yards per touch, and touchdowns per touch are great. He has done well when he is given the chance.

It's rather disturbing that every small move he makes is instantly seen in a negative light by many biased fans. He missed a block, cut him! He fumbled, demote him! The OL let a Defensive Lineman hit him in the backfield, Knowshon to the bench! If every player that made similar mistakes reaped those punishments, the entire team would have different starting lineup every week top to bottom.

It really is sad that this is the state of our fan base, needing a whipping boy to hate. Why is it so hard to see that he is nowhere near as bad as the uneducated try to paint him to be?

Durango
09-20-2012, 01:38 AM
Just don't see it. Moreno is a bust, but he has his uses, and his pass blocking is better than Hillman at this stage. When Hillman progresses, it's a different story. My God what a waste of the 12th over-all pick.

ozomulsion
09-20-2012, 02:03 AM
The uneducated have spoken. I don't know why Knowshon was nominated to be the whipping boy, when plenty of his teammates have done worse.

The lack of maturity, reason, and objectivity in this thread is almost comical. You cannot be so hypocritical. Sure, call out Moreno for his mistakes, but don't turn a blind eye to the other players' mistakes.

I feel like many people dislike him just to dislike him, and refuse to see any good in him, why? It is obvious he is talented, and obvious he has gotten the short end of the stick with the OL's blocking at times.

You can bring up faults, yes he has fumbled. But his fumbles per touch, very low. His yards per touch, and touchdowns per touch are great. He has done well when he is given the chance.

It's rather disturbing that every small move he makes is instantly seen in a negative light by many biased fans. He missed a block, cut him! He fumbled, demote him! The OL let a Defensive Lineman hit him in the backfield, Knowshon to the bench! If every player that made similar mistakes reaped those punishments, the entire team would have different starting lineup every week top to bottom.

It really is sad that this is the state of our fan base, needing a whipping boy to hate. Why is it so hard to see that he is nowhere near as bad as the uneducated try to paint him to be?

It's pretty sad for sure. This place has gone down hill big time over the last few years. It used to be great. You'd never know that by reading this crap. Ayers gets a total pass and he's done jack S***. Even though he was picked just a few spots behind KM.

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 02:16 AM
The uneducated have spoken. I don't know why Knowshon was nominated to be the whipping boy, when plenty of his teammates have done worse.

The lack of maturity, reason, and objectivity in this thread is almost comical. You cannot be so hypocritical. Sure, call out Moreno for his mistakes, but don't turn a blind eye to the other players' mistakes.

I feel like many people dislike him just to dislike him, and refuse to see any good in him, why? It is obvious he is talented, and obvious he has gotten the short end of the stick with the OL's blocking at times.

You can bring up faults, yes he has fumbled. But his fumbles per touch, very low. His yards per touch, and touchdowns per touch are great. He has done well when he is given the chance.

It's rather disturbing that every small move he makes is instantly seen in a negative light by many biased fans. He missed a block, cut him! He fumbled, demote him! The OL let a Defensive Lineman hit him in the backfield, Knowshon to the bench! If every player that made similar mistakes reaped those punishments, the entire team would have different starting lineup every week top to bottom.

It really is sad that this is the state of our fan base, needing a whipping boy to hate. Why is it so hard to see that he is nowhere near as bad as the uneducated try to paint him to be?

And by uneducated, you're essentially referring to 86% of people on the orange mane. Nice -- why don't you go over to the Broncos Country message board instead of slumming with us idiots?

As for the argument by some that we aren't utilizing him properly, and he needs to be employed more in the passing game (also mentioned on the OM podcast) -- the job of a running back is primarily to rush. The job of the back-up running back is to spell Willis McGahee and to limit the total number of carries he gets in a season.

If our back-up running back sucks at running (and Moreno does, indisputably), then what's the point of having him in there?

ZONA
09-20-2012, 03:26 AM
All the RB's are looking slow and lousy. We needed a spark.

J.J. is that spark - I feel he would give us more speed and looked good in preseasons to me. I sure wish he could be active for a game or 2 to give him a shot this year.

DENVERDUI55
09-20-2012, 03:29 AM
It's pretty sad for sure. This place has gone down hill big time over the last few years. It used to be great. You'd never know that by reading this crap. Ayers gets a total pass and he's done jack S***. Even though he was picked just a few spots behind KM.

Well if you have such a hard on for slowshon that you can't see what he is is any FA running back but you think he is great why blame realist fans? Slowshon fans love spitting stats because a lot were produced in blowouts.

fontaine
09-20-2012, 03:33 AM
I don't dislike Moreno.

I just dislike how he runs with no vision, ends up running into the pile instead of finding the lane, and how easily he gets tackled.

That's everything to do with him and after being in the league this long there's very little chance that he's all of a sudden going to improve dramatically.

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 05:16 AM
I don't dislike Moreno.

I just dislike how he runs with no vision, ends up running into the pile instead of finding the lane, and how easily he gets tackled.

That's everything to do with him and after being in the league this long there's very little chance that he's all of a sudden going to improve dramatically.

Exactly. I'm not down on him because he's a McDaniels pick, or that we wasted a the #12 overall pick on him in 2009. I'm down on him because this is his 4th year in the league, and he is what he is at this point:

1) lacks vision
2) lacks burst
3) injury prone
4) easy to tackle
5) doesn't play special teams
6) has a license plate that says "sauced", then gets arrested for a DUI.

Time to move on, and consider him a sunk cost -- especially when the running back on our practice squad is superior in all ways.

fontaine
09-20-2012, 05:29 AM
Exactly. I'm not down on him because he's a McDaniels pick, or that we wasted a the #12 overall pick on him in 2009. I'm down on him because this is his 4th year in the league, and he is what he is at this point:

1) lacks vision
2) lacks burst
3) injury prone
4) easy to tackle
5) doesn't play special teams
6) has a license plate that says "sauced", then gets arrested for a DUI.

Time to move on, and consider him a sunk cost -- especially when the running back on our practice squad is superior in all ways.

Offensively, the two priorities next offseason for me are:
1. A fast twitch slot receiver that's quick in and out his breaks and a good route runner. Someone like Danny Amendola who could wreak havoc in our offense and replace Stokely, who's not an explosive slot WR any more.

-As a matter of fact Amendola is FA this offseason. He's really progressed as a route runner, lining up all over the field and would be a real hitman in our offense.


2. A RB to replace Willis McGahee. Willis was brought in as a complimentary back, not the primary guy that he's had to be due to Moreno's suckage. Never mind Moreno, we need to start thinking about replacing Willis who's on the wrong side of 30. Hillman isn't that guy.

ozomulsion
09-20-2012, 06:13 AM
Well if you have such a hard on for slowshon that you can't see what he is is any FA running back but you think he is great why blame realist fans? Slowshon fans love spitting stats because a lot were produced in blowouts.

You obviously have a hard on for Robert Ayers, because I've yet to see you slamming him. Fact is, our coaching staff disagrees with you and the other "realist fans" as he is our 2nd string running back. This poll has a bunch of people saying they think a RB who can't even get himself active for games should take his place.

TonyR
09-20-2012, 07:33 AM
...we need to start thinking about replacing Willis who's on the wrong side of 30. Hillman isn't that guy.

Which if true begs the questoin why we used a high 3rd round pick on him...

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 08:32 AM
If our back-up running back sucks at running (and Moreno does, indisputably)

Ummm, what? That can easily be disputed.


Slowshon fans love spitting stats because a lot were produced in blowouts.

More OMane myth. I'd ask you to provide evidence of this statement, but I know you won't. Why? Because I blew this argument out of the water months ago......yet here we are again. A simple search of his split stats shows that the vast majority of his numbers come from the 2nd and 3rd quarters. He gets less than 1/4 of his numbers from the 4th quarter.

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=Beantown Bronco;3674128]Ummm, what? That can easily be disputed.

After 4 years:

1) he's never broken 1000 yards rushing in a season
2) his career average is 4.1 yards per attempts
3) he's averaging 3 touchdowns per season
4) his career longest gain is 36 yards.

For the #12 overall pick? Suck, suck, suck, suckity, suck, suck, suck!

TonyR
09-20-2012, 08:53 AM
For the #12 overall pick? ]

^ I don't think anyone is disputing that he isn't, and will never be, worthy of his draft status.

Dr. Broncenstein
09-20-2012, 08:55 AM
It's amazing... some of you have been watching football for how long and still haven't come to the realization that running the ball is not just about the RB.

It's also amazing how productive Willis remains despite his age... compared to the lack of production from Moreno with the same guys blocking for him.

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 08:58 AM
It's also amazing how productive Willis remains despite his age... compared to the lack of production from Moreno with the same guys blocking for him.

Exactly... Even Lance Ball has a better yard-per-carry average than Moreno over the last three years (4.3 to 4.1).

For God's sake, where is the love coming from, people? Why? Is this some weird form of Stockholm syndrome?

razorwire77
09-20-2012, 09:36 AM
It's also amazing how productive Willis remains despite his age... compared to the lack of production from Moreno with the same guys blocking for him.

The line's fault fallacy. . . .Best friend of the Moreno defender. Willis McGahee, a back north of 30, with profound ligament damage in his knee ranges from very good to stud like in this offense. Moreno, a young back drafted in the top 15 relieves him and immediately proceeds to look slower, less explosive, less patient, and with less vision. Clearly an o-line problem.

Drunken.Broncoholic
09-20-2012, 09:39 AM
Mcgahee is running great. Problem is after a couple carries he's waving to the sidelines for someone to sub in for him. I don't think he's gone one series without having to run to the sidelines. Some of this is package personnel changes, but there's been several times he's taken himself out. Knoshoe comes in and lays it on the carpet.

Time for hillman.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Ummm, what? That can easily be disputed.

After 4 years:

1) he's never broken 1000 yards rushing in a season
2) his career average is 4.1 yards per attempts
3) he's averaging 3 touchdowns per season
4) his career longest gain is 36 yards.

For the #12 overall pick? Suck, suck, suck, suckity, suck, suck, suck!

1) McD effect.
2) It's gone up every year. And if that sucks, then 90% of the RBs in the nfl suck.
3) You suck at math and/or you're being shady with your math. You should be a politician. He has 19 career TDs in 37 games played. That's one every two games in part time duty. Again, if that sucks, then 90% of the RBs in the nfl suck.
4) I honestly don't care about a RBs longest run. It literally means little to me in this age of specialty players and packages. He's not a home run hitter. Big whoop.

Play2win
09-20-2012, 09:42 AM
It seems protections and understanding shifts in protection, mean as much to this offense as running ability for our RBs. Hillman jus needs to get that under his belt, and I'm sure he'll be there, and impressing everybody– sometime around mid-to-late season.

Play2win
09-20-2012, 09:43 AM
I wish they would throw to Moreno more, though. That is his strength.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 09:43 AM
The line's fault fallacy. . . .Best friend of the Moreno defender. Willis McGahee, a back north of 30, with profound ligament damage in his knee ranges from very good to stud like in this offense. Moreno, a young back drafted in the top 15 relieves him and immediately proceeds to look slower, less explosive, less patient, and with less vision. Clearly an o-line problem.

I love how you can come to definitive conclusions when Knowshon carried the ball a whole 8 times over the course of two entire games. There's a tad bit of a sample size issue there.

It's like those Presidential polls that are coming out daily now that reveal in the fine print that they are based off of a sample size of 200 likely voters in Nebraska. Wow. Thanks for the solid info, guys.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-20-2012, 09:43 AM
I dont think Moreno "sucks," he just hasnt matched the production of a back taken that high (which isn't his fault). If he were a third/fourth rounder, our perception of him would be tons different, even though he'd be the same player.

You know what everyone would be saying now if he were a fourth rounder? Oooh, if he just could stay healthy, he'd be amazing. We'll never know, but oh the talent! That'd be the narrative.

winstoncup bronco
09-20-2012, 09:49 AM
At this point they should just trade Moreno. He is not going to be much more than he already is for us, he is never going to shake the stigma of not playing to his draft status in Denver, and really, how much worse would we be with Ball or Hillman spelling Willis?

My hope is, they work out a trade with New England, send Moreno and maybe a conditional 4 that becomes a 3, for Wes Welker. It's being reported that Welker is available, and he would be perfect for Manning. Welker is a reliable quick strike receiver for a QB that is a reliable quick strike passer.

Moreno gets reunited with McD who drafted him, and presumably had plans on how to use him, plus gets a fresh start without the weight of having to live up to his draft status.

Welker for us would be huge. I don't know what NE is looking for in return, but Welker would be the ultimate security blanket for Manning. If Elway is as bold as he says he is, he can swing a deal.

Drunken.Broncoholic
09-20-2012, 09:51 AM
A RBs per carry goes up when the rush attempts and games stay the same is progress. A RBs per carry going up due to lack of rushing attempts and games isn't much progress. If he had more carry attempts that average would go down

fontaine
09-20-2012, 09:55 AM
Which if true begs the questoin why we used a high 3rd round pick on him...

I think the answer is pretty obvious given the suckage of Moreno.

Play2win
09-20-2012, 09:56 AM
Why would NE ever get rid of Welker?!?

Dr. Broncenstein
09-20-2012, 10:08 AM
I dont think Moreno "sucks," he just hasnt matched the production of a back taken that high (which isn't his fault). If he were a third/fourth rounder, our perception of him would be tons different, even though he'd be the same player.

You know what everyone would be saying now if he were a fourth rounder? Oooh, if he just could stay healthy, he'd be amazing. We'll never know, but oh the talent! That'd be the narrative.

Lol. If he were a third or fourth rounder, he'd already be off the team.

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 10:19 AM
1) McD effect.
2) It's gone up every year. And if that sucks, then 90% of the RBs in the nfl suck.
3) You suck at math and/or you're being shady with your math. You should be a politician. He has 19 career TDs in 37 games played. That's one every two games in part time duty. Again, if that sucks, then 90% of the RBs in the nfl suck.
4) I honestly don't care about a RBs longest run. It literally means little to me in this age of specialty players and packages. He's not a home run hitter. Big whoop.

Your points #1 and #4 are nonsensical. Essentially, you concede both points without offering a counterargument.

Point #2 is also flat wrong (in any meaningful sense). 35 of the top 50 rushers in 2011 had a better yards per carry metric than Moreno's 4.1. Even in 2010 (Moreno's best year statistically), 18 other rushers had a better ypc than Moreno. He's never been better than below-average in ypc in any season in his career.

In point #3, you have a point. I was only counting rushing TDs, but if you include receiving TDs, then he averages 0.49 touchdowns per game. Not terrible, but surpassed by several running backs drafted after him in 2009, and in later spots in other drafts.

MY POINT is... Lance friggin' Ball looks better than Moreno does whenever he comes into the game, as do Hillman, Johnson, and Xavier Omon. Moreno is simply no better than below-average in any respect (and much worse than that when his salary is taken into account).

Why fight it dude? Just admit that Moreno is a sunk cost, and move on....

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 10:23 AM
I love how you can come to definitive conclusions when Knowshon carried the ball a whole 8 times over the course of two entire games. There's a tad bit of a sample size issue there.

It's like those Presidential polls that are coming out daily now that reveal in the fine print that they are based off of a sample size of 200 likely voters in Nebraska. Wow. Thanks for the solid info, guys.

He's played in what, 41 games over 4 seasons? That's not a sample size issue whatsoever.

Really strange... you're normally one of the best posters on the board, Beantown -- but for some reason, you've got a blind spot here.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 10:25 AM
Your points #1 and #4 are nonsensical. Essentially, you concede both points without offering a counterargument.


Ummmm, what? You stated two facts. Facts are facts. I can't deny them. I can, however, offer context, which is what I did.

You can counter-argue an opinion. Not a fact.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 10:30 AM
Point #2 is also flat wrong (in any meaningful sense). 35 of the top 50 rushers in 2011 had a better yards per carry metric than Moreno's 4.1. Even in 2010 (Moreno's best year statistically), 18 other rushers had a better ypc than Moreno. He's never been better than below-average in ypc in any season in his career...

If there were only 50 rbs in the NFL, then yes, you'd be right. He'd be below average (still not a complete bust). But there's not. There's more like 150-200.


In point #3, you have a point. I was only counting rushing TDs, but if you include receiving TDs, then he averages 0.49 touchdowns per game. Not terrible, but surpassed by several running backs drafted after him in 2009, and in later spots in other drafts.

That's all fine and good, but you keep bouncing between two completely different arguments. Is he a complete bust that just plain sucks? or is he producing less than he should for a guy drafted at teh #12 overall position? You can make a successful argument for #2....and won't hear a peep from me. But #1 is easy to argue against, given the average performance of a 1st round pick in the NFL.....which isn't as good as one might think.

MY POINT is... Lance friggin' Ball looks better than Moreno does whenever he comes into the game, as do Hillman, Johnson, and Xavier Omon. ..

That's not a point. That's an opinion, which is not shared by many who matter.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 10:34 AM
He's played in what, 41 games over 4 seasons? That's not a sample size issue whatsoever..

There you go again. You can't pretend to call it 4 full seasons when we're only 2 games into his 4th season. It's simply dishonest and flawed.


Really strange... you're normally one of the best posters on the board, Beantown -- but for some reason, you've got a blind spot here.

No blind spot. I just don't hate on the one guy who actually produced for us in 2009 and 2010 with a lot of straight up garbage blocking for him for those two years.....and then had some bad luck last year with the injury, when he was looking pretty good up until that point.

BowlenBall
09-20-2012, 10:35 AM
If there were only 50 rbs in the NFL, then yes, you'd be right. He'd be below average (still not a complete bust). But there's not. There's more like 150-200.




That's all fine and good, but you keep bouncing between two completely different arguments. Is he a complete bust that just plain sucks? or is he producing less than he should for a guy drafted at teh #12 overall position? You can make a successful argument for #2....and won't hear a peep from me. But #1 is easy to argue against, given the average performance of a 1st round pick in the NFL.....which isn't as good as one might think.




That's not a point. That's an opinion, which is not shared by many who matter.


OK, OK, no mas... like I said, I think you're a very good poster on this board, and certainly don't want to stir up any bad blood with you.

Let's just frame the discussion this way... We both hope that Moreno rushes for 300 yards and 5 touchdowns in the game against Houston. You can tell me "I told you so", and I can be wrong, but have the Broncos kick ass.

However... if Moreno generally sucks ass the rest of the season, and is not on the roster next year, I expect you to eat some public crow.

Deal?

razorwire77
09-20-2012, 10:35 AM
I love how you can come to definitive conclusions when Knowshon carried the ball a whole 8 times over the course of two entire games. There's a tad bit of a sample size issue there.

It's like those Presidential polls that are coming out daily now that reveal in the fine print that they are based off of a sample size of 200 likely voters in Nebraska. Wow. Thanks for the solid info, guys.

He's a top 15 draft pick and in his 4th year and yet he's carried the ball 8 times in two games because he sucks. 4 years is an extensive sample size considering the average running back's career is 4 years. The team would rather horse whip an aging McGahee and risk breaking him than trust Saucy with the ball.

We have an extended sample size of him in four years. His ceiling is mediocre (and that's being generous.) Not really sure why you have a soft-spot for him.

TonyR
09-20-2012, 10:36 AM
I think the answer is pretty obvious given the suckage of Moreno.

It's "pretty obvious" that we should draft a guy who you yourself said can't replace McGahee?

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 10:42 AM
He's a top 15 draft pick and in his 4th year and yet he's carried the ball 8 times in two games because he sucks. 4 years is an extensive sample size considering the average running back's career is 4 years. The team would rather horse whip an aging McGahee and risk breaking him than trust Saucy with the ball.

We have an extended sample size of him in four years. His ceiling is mediocre (and that's being generous.) Not really sure why you have a soft-spot for him.

Once again, for those bad at math, YES.....4 years is a decent sample size. So let's talk about this again in January.....you know, when he's been in the league for 4 years.

Not today. Today only includes 3 full years of data.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 10:43 AM
OK, OK, no mas... like I said, I think you're a very good poster on this board, and certainly don't want to stir up any bad blood with you.

Let's just frame the discussion this way... We both hope that Moreno rushes for 300 yards and 5 touchdowns in the game against Houston. You can tell me "I told you so", and I can be wrong, but have the Broncos kick ass.

However... if Moreno generally sucks ass the rest of the season, and is not on the roster next year, I expect you to eat some public crow.

Deal?

Don't worry. I don't take anything personally and I know I'm in the minority with my opinion of Moreno. I can take anything that comes my way and won't think anything less of anyone else. :)

And yes. That's a fair deal.

broncocalijohn
09-20-2012, 11:29 AM
Once again, for those bad at math, YES.....4 years is a decent sample size. So let's talk about this again in January.....you know, when he's been in the league for 4 years.

Not today. Today only includes 3 full years of data.

LOL! You need 4 years of data when a RB career is less than that. Come on! I don't think Hillman is ready to take over and we do have Ball but you backing of Moreno needs merit.

lonestar
09-20-2012, 11:31 AM
If he was scratched for the game, I doubt it unless it is to duplicate what Moreno cannot do. If not, Ball is #2.
:thumbs:


but it is beyond some folks capacity for thought..

StugotsIII
09-20-2012, 11:32 AM
Ugh…it's not as simple as plugging in a rookie running back. This isn't Madden.

razorwire77
09-20-2012, 11:36 AM
Once again, for those bad at math, YES.....4 years is a decent sample size. So let's talk about this again in January.....you know, when he's been in the league for 4 years.

Not today. Today only includes 3 full years of data.

My bad. Ha!
You're right it takes all 1st round running backs 4 full years of data, not 3 years before we can determine their relative suckyness.


I'd be willing to bet that by January, Hillman finishes with more yards rushing than Moreno, despite being deactivated for the first part of the season.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 11:51 AM
LOL! You need 4 years of data when a RB career is less than that.

I don't. Razor does, however. He was the one to bring it up. I was just correcting him about where we're at in years as of today.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 11:55 AM
My bad. Ha!
You're right it takes all 1st round running backs 4 full years of data, not 3 years before we can determine their relative suckyness.

We don't even have that, though. We really only have two years of data.

I'd be willing to bet that by January, Hillman finishes with more yards rushing than Moreno, despite being deactivated for the first part of the season.

We'll see. Obviously, if Moreno only gets 4 carries per game, he really won't have that big of an advantage....but if something changes there and he gets some actual carries, things could change.

The guy showed in 2009 and 2010 that he could touch the ball 15+ times per game and put up solid numbers running behind the #32 ranked Center/OG combo in the league and Kyle Orton at QB. With an improved line and Manning under center? Anything's possible.

fontaine
09-20-2012, 11:56 AM
It's "pretty obvious" that we should draft a guy who you yourself said can't replace McGahee?

I'm surprised you still don't get this. Hillman was directly drafted to compete against Moreno and potentially take his snaps.

Whether he was drafted in the 3rd/4th/5th round is moot just like where Moreno was drafted is irrevelant at this point.

If the team had serious questions about McGahee's ability to take most of the carries then they would have drafted someone to replace him. They didn't. And McGahee, more importantly, hasn't shown them major reasons to doubt him.

Instead they're moving to a point where Moreno is getting less and less looks and touches per game, purely down to his inability and ineffectiveness running in the same offense, behind the same line where McGahee is on pace to run a well over 1000+ yards.

And why wouldn't they reduce his touches? What has Moreno shown so far in two games that he deserves more touches apart from whiffing in pass protection, fumbling and barely being able to get past the line of scrimmage?

Yes, we could change a lot of the offense to suit Moreno's (limited) skill set, ie keep bouncing it outside, throw him the ball but what in the name of John Elway has he shown that he deserves those touches compared to McGahee/DT/Decker/Tamme who are steady kicking a$$ compared to Moreno.

Show me on the field where Moreno hits the hole hard, fights for yards and gets past defenders. You know, the basics of the position. We saw a bit of it in the preseason when his a$$ was on the line. Nothing since then.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 12:08 PM
they're moving to a point where Moreno is getting less and less looks and touches per game, purely down to his inability and ineffectiveness running in the same offense, behind the same line where McGahee is on pace to run a well over 1000+ yards.

And why wouldn't they reduce his touches? What has Moreno shown so far in two games that he deserves more touches apart from whiffing in pass protection, fumbling and barely being able to get past the line of scrimmage?


While this is all true, Moreno does seem to be getting the short end of the stick due to things outside his control. Take this past game for instance:

After McGahee's first two runs, he has a combined negative two yards. What happens? They keep feeding him, he gets back into a groove and has a nice productive day.

Moreno? His first carry goes for minus 2 yards after multiple guys meet him in the backfield as he takes the handoff, same as McGahee. Next one, he gains 4 or so yards and fumbles. We recover it? No problem. But the other team does according to the idiot refs and now he basically he sits out the rest of the game (in terms of running the ball).

Nobody brings up the fact that McGahee had a potentially very costly fumble in week one, yet the Moreno fumble thread here is 5 or 6 pages already and it wouldn't have cost us anything if the refs were capable of using their eyes.

razorwire77
09-20-2012, 12:12 PM
We don't even have that, though. We really only have two years of data.



We'll see. Obviously, if Moreno only gets 4 carries per game, he really won't have that big of an advantage....but if something changes there and he gets some actual carries, things could change.

The guy showed in 2009 and 2010 that he could touch the ball 15+ times per game and put up solid numbers running behind the #32 ranked Center/OG combo in the league and Kyle Orton at QB. With an improved line and Manning under center? Anything's possible.

I agree. We'll see. I'd like nothing more than to have egg on my face if Knowshon goes ape **** against the Texans. I don't hate the kid. I was actually excited about the Moreno pick and I thought he was going to develop into a Ladainian Tomlinson type feature back. His college tape was impressive. Hell, it's still impressive. He looks like an entirely different player. I just don't think his physical skill set translated from the college game into the NFL like many of us thought and hoped it would. Add to that an unfortunate injury last year and which hindered his already limited speed and explosiveness and he is what he is.

TonyR
09-20-2012, 12:53 PM
I'm surprised you still don't get this. Hillman was directly drafted to compete against Moreno and potentially take his snaps.

Okay, I'm more clear with what you're saying now. I guess I'd just like to think that a guy you use a 3rd round pick on can be a "feature back" rather than just a 3rd down/change of pace kind of guy.

DENVERDUI55
09-20-2012, 12:56 PM
While this is all true, Moreno does seem to be getting the short end of the stick due to things outside his control. Take this past game for instance:

After McGahee's first two runs, he has a combined negative two yards. What happens? They keep feeding him, he gets back into a groove and has a nice productive day.

Moreno? His first carry goes for minus 2 yards after multiple guys meet him in the backfield as he takes the handoff, same as McGahee. Next one, he gains 4 or so yards and fumbles. We recover it? No problem. But the other team does according to the idiot refs and now he basically he sits out the rest of the game (in terms of running the ball).

Nobody brings up the fact that McGahee had a potentially very costly fumble in week one, yet the Moreno fumble thread here is 5 or 6 pages already and it wouldn't have cost us anything if the refs were capable of using their eyes.
Moreno was drafted to be a bell cow which he isn't. Instead he is a meat cow that needs to be moved on from. He is far from the high draft status he was drafted and can't beat out an old McGahee that straight up stole his job.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 01:05 PM
Moreno was drafted to be a bell cow

Impossible. McD doesn't believe in such things.

WolfpackGuy
09-20-2012, 01:09 PM
Where the hell is Hillman anyway?

fontaine
09-20-2012, 01:24 PM
While this is all true, Moreno does seem to be getting the short end of the stick due to things outside his control. Take this past game for instance:

After McGahee's first two runs, he has a combined negative two yards. What happens? They keep feeding him, he gets back into a groove and has a nice productive day.

Moreno? His first carry goes for minus 2 yards after multiple guys meet him in the backfield as he takes the handoff, same as McGahee. Next one, he gains 4 or so yards and fumbles. We recover it? No problem. But the other team does according to the idiot refs and now he basically he sits out the rest of the game (in terms of running the ball).

Nobody brings up the fact that McGahee had a potentially very costly fumble in week one, yet the Moreno fumble thread here is 5 or 6 pages already and it wouldn't have cost us anything if the refs were capable of using their eyes.

That fumble was not outside his control. When you're backup RB fumbles the ball in his first few carries then he goes to the doghouse, not back on the field.

lonestar
09-20-2012, 02:18 PM
That fumble was not outside his control. When you're backup RB fumbles the ball in his first few carries then he goes to the doghouse, not back on the field.

well normally yes.. but John has a thingy for moreno.

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 02:22 PM
well normally yes.. but John has a thingy for moreno.

Huh? Are you arguing that Moreno WASN'T put in the doghouse after the fumble?

lonestar
09-20-2012, 02:38 PM
Huh? Are you arguing that Moreno WASN'T put in the doghouse after the fumble?

was back in a few plays later .. not like mikeys dog house that is never ever back in..

2-3-ATL 45 (3:28) 27-K.Moreno left guard to ATL 45 for no gain (54-S.Nicholas; 55-J.Abraham). PENALTY on DEN-81-J.Dreessen, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at ATL 45 - No Play.


I was surprised as hell when I saw it..

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 02:48 PM
One carry the rest of the half, that didn't even count because of a penalty. But he wasn't in the doghouse.

lonestar
09-20-2012, 03:01 PM
One carry the rest of the half, that didn't even count because of a penalty. But he wasn't in the doghouse.

ok lets look at the Bronco definition of dog house..

Under Tanahan never back in the game may be inactive the rest of the year..

usually cut or traded for a sack of lard..

That is what I'm use to seeing not back in the game 5 bronco plays later..
Whether it was no gain or a gain John gave him the ball to run with .. Because it was negated by a penalty does not mean he did not get the ball again..

Had it been mikey (after 3 picks) I'm guessing in that case he would have asked someone to collect his playbook (iPad) and take him behind the stadium and shoot him..

menonite
09-20-2012, 03:12 PM
ok lets look at the Bronco definition of dog house..

Under Tanahan never back in the game may be inactive the rest of the year..

usually cut or traded for a sack of lard..

That is what I'm use to seeing not back in the game 5 bronco plays later..
Whether it was no gain or a gain John gave him the ball to run with .. Because it was negated by a penalty does not mean he did not get the ball again..

Had it been mikey (after 3 picks) I'm guessing in that case he would have asked someone to collect his playbook (iPad) and take him behind the stadium and shoot him..



http://i.imgur.com/Z1ax0.png

Beantown Bronco
09-20-2012, 03:15 PM
Pretty tough to bench a guy for one fumble when the QB just threw three awful picks and is still in there. Obviously, the resumes aren't even close, but still. That and McGahee fumbled one the prior game, while Moreno scored a TD....and McGahee never went in the doghouse.

lonestar
09-20-2012, 03:27 PM
Pretty tough to bench a guy for one fumble when the QB just threw three awful picks and is still in there. Obviously, the resumes aren't even close, but still. That and McGahee fumbled one the prior game, while Moreno scored a TD....and McGahee never went in the doghouse.

go figure, different regime..

have been so used to never hearing from a guy again after mikey set them down I was shocked when I saw him a few plays later..

lonestar
09-20-2012, 03:29 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Z1ax0.png

Nice..

but the only therapy I have is making fun of morons on here..

Obviously I have made my point with Tanahan..

Jetland
09-20-2012, 03:44 PM
it just speaks volumes that hillman is magically ready a week after that fumble

broncosteven
09-20-2012, 03:45 PM
Pretty tough to bench a guy for one fumble when the QB just threw three awful picks and is still in there. Obviously, the resumes aren't even close, but still. That and McGahee fumbled one the prior game, while Moreno scored a TD....and McGahee never went in the doghouse.

I am guessing that the fact Bell came in and had a 9 yard rush helped to limit KM's carries.

KM was back in the game, he got a couple touches in the run and pass game.

I think it is more to the fact that he can't hit the hole, dances on every carry and is now starting to wiff in Pass pro that are the reasons he got benched.

He looked good against 2nd teamers in the last PS game but since then has not been playing to the standard where he deserves more reps.

Sure he has 2 TDs but he rolled off the back of his OL for the 1st from a couple yards out and Manning audibled out of a pass play into a run and caught the Falcons with their pants down on the other.

If Hillman is healthy it is time to get him some touches and see what he can do. I would even take JJ back that guy was making 1 cut and hitting the hole in PS.

I still wonder if they don't try to move KM for something before the trade deadline. I think Elway was hoping he would break out of his suckage and show that he can be a quality backup or even push Willis for playing time but it is clear so far that it aint going to happen.

Agamemnon
09-20-2012, 05:16 PM
So far Hillman seems to be getting the Nate Irving treatment. Pretty odd considering the fact that RB is far and away the easiest position to play as a rookie.

swaiy
09-20-2012, 05:31 PM
So far Hillman seems to be getting the Nate Irving treatment. Pretty odd considering the fact that RB is far and away the easiest position to play as a rookie.

Irvin isnt protecting a $100M QB coming off neck surgery. Based on what i have seen from the other RBs, might as well let Hillman get his feet wet. He cant be any worse than Moreno lol

Broncobiv
09-20-2012, 06:59 PM
Doesn't mater what anyone on here thinks...unless one of us is John Fox

You're right. Why should we ever discuss anything Broncos-related on here? I mean, we're not John Fox, so what good would it do?

You hear that, Taco?! Shut down the OMane! It's pointless to ever discuss anything, because we're not the head coach!

The Joker
09-21-2012, 07:54 AM
I think Hillman is competing with Ball more than Moreno.

Moreno absolutely still has a role on this team, but it should be exclusively as a third down back. He's a good pass protector and has great hands out of the backfield. Every third and long I'd want Moreno lined up next to Manning in the shotgun, he's genuinely a good third down back.

As a pure runner though, damn Knowshon does suck. He plays like a speed back, always dancing around looking for the big play and getting stuffed more often than not as a result of it. You could tolerate this if he was actually some sort of threat to break a big one at some point, but he absolutely isn't. His career long is 36 yards. He's slow and doesn't break tackles. He's a dreadful pure runner.

Hillman sounds like he's still struggling with the pass pro side of things, so we need a reliable 3rd down guy. That should be Knowhson.

But as a change of pace for McGahee I'd be excited to see Hillman in there instead of Lance Ball for a few carries a game. Just hand him the ball a few times and see how he does. It won't happen until the staff feel he's at least competent in terms of the playbook of course, but let's hope that's sooner rather than later because we could use a big play threat.

DENVERDUI55
09-21-2012, 10:34 AM
They should Roll with Ball as the 2 and Hillman as the 3 and leave Moreno off of the gameday roster. His dancing and slow running style just doesn't work. Lets beat this dead horse til it whithers away to nothing.

razorwire77
09-21-2012, 10:56 AM
So far Hillman seems to be getting the Nate Irving treatment. Pretty odd considering the fact that RB is far and away the easiest position to play as a rookie.

It is somewhat concerning that he can't get on the field. The closest to a plug and play position in the NFL is supposed to be RB. Even though the no-huddle and Manning audible, bluff audible gesturing is probably somewhat confusing to a rookie RB, the root of the offense Denver is running really isn't all that complex, but it is all about timing and execution. Apparently, the execution part is hindering Hillman's ability to be on the active roster.

maher_tyler
09-21-2012, 07:12 PM
I think Hillman is competing with Ball more than Moreno.

Moreno absolutely still has a role on this team, but it should be exclusively as a third down back. He's a good pass protector and has great hands out of the backfield. Every third and long I'd want Moreno lined up next to Manning in the shotgun, he's genuinely a good third down back.

As a pure runner though, damn Knowshon does suck. He plays like a speed back, always dancing around looking for the big play and getting stuffed more often than not as a result of it. You could tolerate this if he was actually some sort of threat to break a big one at some point, but he absolutely isn't. His career long is 36 yards. He's slow and doesn't break tackles. He's a dreadful pure runner.

Hillman sounds like he's still struggling with the pass pro side of things, so we need a reliable 3rd down guy. That should be Knowhson.

But as a change of pace for McGahee I'd be excited to see Hillman in there instead of Lance Ball for a few carries a game. Just hand him the ball a few times and see how he does. It won't happen until the staff feel he's at least competent in terms of the playbook of course, but let's hope that's sooner rather than later because we could use a big play threat.

Exactly. Just hand him the ball a few times...see what he can do with it.

Play2win
09-21-2012, 09:30 PM
I think Hillman is competing with Ball more than Moreno.

Moreno absolutely still has a role on this team, but it should be exclusively as a third down back. He's a good pass protector and has great hands out of the backfield. Every third and long I'd want Moreno lined up next to Manning in the shotgun, he's genuinely a good third down back.

As a pure runner though, damn Knowshon does suck. He plays like a speed back, always dancing around looking for the big play and getting stuffed more often than not as a result of it. You could tolerate this if he was actually some sort of threat to break a big one at some point, but he absolutely isn't. His career long is 36 yards. He's slow and doesn't break tackles. He's a dreadful pure runner.

Hillman sounds like he's still struggling with the pass pro side of things, so we need a reliable 3rd down guy. That should be Knowhson.

But as a change of pace for McGahee I'd be excited to see Hillman in there instead of Lance Ball for a few carries a game. Just hand him the ball a few times and see how he does. It won't happen until the staff feel he's at least competent in terms of the playbook of course, but let's hope that's sooner rather than later because we could use a big play threat.

Extremely good take.

(wait a second... am I still at the Orange Mane? This cannot Be!!)

TomServo
09-22-2012, 03:27 AM
was that in 09 when old man buckhalter averaged 5.4 per carry and KM avgd 3.8 behind the Same OL?

TomServo
09-22-2012, 03:32 AM
or when that dumbass tried to celebrate-TWICE during a historic loss to the raiders at home?

Rock Chalk
09-22-2012, 07:56 AM
If Moreno sucks so bad and Hillman cant beat him out, why do you guys want to see him?

OrangeSe7en
09-22-2012, 09:12 AM
Pretty tough to bench a guy for one fumble when the QB just threw three awful picks and is still in there. Obviously, the resumes aren't even close, but still. That and McGahee fumbled one the prior game, while Moreno scored a TD....and McGahee never went in the doghouse.

That's absurd. There's no "but still" that comes after acknowledging the glaring discrepancies between Manning and Moreno.

Also, it's ironic that you blast people for the issue of sample size when it's precisely that, which make them vastly prefer McGahee over Moreno. Now you're the one cherry picking. People would gladly take the little bit of bad that comes with Peyton Manning in exchange for the good that comes with it. Same with McGahee. This isn't the case with Moreno. The good isn't offsetting the bad.

OrangeSe7en
09-22-2012, 09:14 AM
or when that dumbass tried to celebrate-TWICE during a historic loss to the raiders at home?

Yeah, in addition to being vastly better as a RB, McGahee actually pays homage to being a RB in Denver with the Mile High Salute. Moreno, on the other hand and in spite of going to the same school as Davis, does some funky "hey look at me" BS when he scores, even when the score is 54-10.

OrangeSe7en
09-22-2012, 09:17 AM
If Moreno sucks so bad and Hillman cant beat him out, why do you guys want to see him?

There's probably an undercurrent of feeling that Moreno is only playing ahead of Ball because he makes more money and was drafted with a high pick. To assume that everyone feels like Moreno has legitimately beaten the other RBs out.

It seems like most people uderstand that Hillman isn't playing because he's legitimately not ready. But in spite of that, Moreno is so frustrating that some would rather see Hillman.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2012, 08:08 PM
Also, it's ironic that you blast people for the issue of sample size when it's precisely that, which make them vastly prefer McGahee over Moreno. Now you're the one cherry picking.

You're right. 8 carries is an adequate sample size. My bad.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2012, 08:11 PM
There's probably an undercurrent of feeling that Moreno is only playing ahead of Ball because he makes more money

Moreno's making $800K this year. Near league minimum.

It seems like most people uderstand that Hillman isn't playing because he's legitimately not ready. But in spite of that, Moreno is so frustrating that some would rather see Hillman.

There's a reason for the saying "nobody's more attractive than the backup." It's human nature to get frustrated with the starter whenever they struggle.

DENVERDUI55
09-22-2012, 08:13 PM
You're right. 8 carries is an adequate sample size. My bad.

I would bet the coaching staff has enough game film to realize he isn't going to be on the team past this year.

Broncobiv
09-22-2012, 10:10 PM
There's a reason for the saying "nobody's more attractive than the backup." It's human nature to get frustrated with the starter whenever they struggle.
We're fine with the starter. The backup sucks...we need a new backup.

TomServo
09-23-2012, 02:08 AM
You're right. 8 carries is an adequate sample size. My bad.

and there is a reason after 4 years in the league he only gets 8 carrys. because he sucks. a stud rb can run over or away from defenders. especially w/he was a rookie. KM has done neither. a waste of a 12 pick when we needed defensive help. damn, the kiosk rb had better numbers all around than KM.

OrangeSe7en
09-23-2012, 09:33 AM
You're right. 8 carries is an adequate sample size. My bad.

8 carries? Ha. Thats a good one. Nice try.

Also, Moreno isn't the starter. He's the backup. No one is clamoring for McGahee to ride the bench.

Rock Chalk
09-23-2012, 09:35 AM
There's probably an undercurrent of feeling that Moreno is only playing ahead of Ball because he makes more money and was drafted with a high pick. To assume that everyone feels like Moreno has legitimately beaten the other RBs out.

It seems like most people uderstand that Hillman isn't playing because he's legitimately not ready. But in spite of that, Moreno is so frustrating that some would rather see Hillman.

Im glad you armchair coaches know whats best.

Let's see: Most feel Hillman isn't ready. Yet they want him to play over Moreno and Ball.

Its like you dip****s have no logic.

If the guy isn't ready, and you dont believe he is ready, why the **** would you want him to play?

swaiy
09-23-2012, 09:38 AM
Im glad you armchair coaches know whats best.

Let's see: Most feel Hillman isn't ready. Yet they want him to play over Moreno and Ball.

Its like you dip****s have no logic.

If the guy isn't ready, and you dont believe he is ready, why the **** would you want him to play?

Are you always this angry in the morning? Decaf man!

OrangeSe7en
09-23-2012, 09:43 AM
Im glad you armchair coaches know whats best.

Im glad youre so blindly submissive to authority figures. You'd think that, by now, people would know better than to throw this type of crap out there as a rebuttal. It was only a year ago that the fans were clamoring to play Tebow infront of Orton. At the time, Im sure, there were a lot of comments like the one you're making here defending Orton because Fox is an NFL coach and the fans are just fans. I doubt you'd be foolish enough to argue that the Broncos would have been better off with Orton, looking back now.

Im not saying the fans are always right. But I am saying that sometimes they are and this blind submissiveness that you're putting on display is stupid given such obvious and recent examples. Where's the logic in that? And you might want to re-think who is the dip****.

lonestar
09-23-2012, 11:43 AM
Im glad youre so blindly submissive to authority figures. You'd think that, by now, people would know better than to throw this type of crap out there as a rebuttal. It was only a year ago that the fans were clamoring to play Tebow infront of Orton. At the time, Im sure, there were a lot of comments like the one you're making here defending Orton because Fox is an NFL coach and the fans are just fans. I doubt you'd be foolish enough to argue that the Broncos would have been better off with Orton, looking back now.

Im not saying the fans are always right. But I am saying that sometimes they are and this blind submissiveness that you're putting on display is stupid given such obvious and recent examples. Where's the logic in that? And you might want to re-think who is the dip****.

YEt Fox is the head coach and your sitting at home playing with yourself..

gee who should I believe?

as far as Hillman is concerned IIRC he is just off the injury report, which does not automatically mean he is ready to carry the load.. Probably active IN case other RB's go down..

or just maybe the situation that he is prepared for has not come up yet..

JHC the coaches see these players in practice and on the field and yet in film sessions as we as RB sessions with their respective coaches.

If they are more comfortable with Moreno why should I doubt them?

because you do not like him or Hillmam is your bromance.

and if you think John and John put Tebow on the field to do anything but fail last year your smoking something..

just so happened the defense stepped up and the opposing DC were not prepared for him.. but then the last few games of the year they shut HIM DOWN.. SO just maybe he was not the answer afterall..

DENVERDUI55
09-23-2012, 01:43 PM
You obviously have a hard on for Robert Ayers, because I've yet to see you slamming him. Fact is, our coaching staff disagrees with you and the other "realist fans" as he is our 2nd string running back. This poll has a bunch of people saying they think a RB who can't even get himself active for games should take his place.

Where you at you "realist fan?". Moreno was hooked at 2 hillman is the 3. If you argue for this guy be man enough to show up when your realist dream get crashed. Your obsession with defending him is weird.

swaiy
09-23-2012, 01:53 PM
Well this M. Night Shyamalan-like twist has made my afternoon reading on the OM much more enjoyable. Lots of foot in mouth action.

BowlenBall
09-23-2012, 01:55 PM
Well this M. Night Shyamalan-like twist has made my afternoon reading on the OM much more enjoyable. Lots of foot in mouth action.

I see running back ghosts.

OrangeSe7en
09-23-2012, 01:55 PM
YEt Fox is the head coach and your sitting at home playing with yourself..

gee who should I believe?
as far as Hillman is concerned IIRC he is just off the injury report, which does not automatically mean he is ready to carry the load.. Probably active IN case other RB's go down..

or just maybe the situation that he is prepared for has not come up yet..

JHC the coaches see these players in practice and on the field and yet in film sessions as we as RB sessions with their respective coaches.

If they are more comfortable with Moreno why should I doubt them?

because you do not like him or Hillmam is your bromance.

and if you think John and John put Tebow on the field to do anything but fail last year your smoking something..

just so happened the defense stepped up and the opposing DC were not prepared for him.. but then the last few games of the year they shut HIM DOWN.. SO just maybe he was not the answer afterall..

Now you can believe both of us, clown!

lonestar
09-23-2012, 05:00 PM
Now you can believe both of us, clown!

as I said in teh KM thread he would be inactive..

which then means hillman could play and unless he did something in the past couple of minutes it does not matter if the kid is in or KM is in does it..

do you always talk out of your ass..

Pick Six
09-30-2012, 11:02 PM
Hillman was impressive, against the Raiders. He seemed to protect the ball MUCH better than Knowshon. I think we can cut Knowshon, and be OK...:thumbs:

DENVERDUI55
10-01-2012, 12:27 PM
Im glad you armchair coaches know whats best.

Let's see: Most feel Hillman isn't ready. Yet they want him to play over Moreno and Ball.

Its like you dip****s have no logic.

If the guy isn't ready, and you dont believe he is ready, why the **** would you want him to play?

Well our no logic has been spot on. You should eat your crow.

Beantown Bronco
10-01-2012, 12:33 PM
Hillman was impressive, against the Raiders. He seemed to protect the ball MUCH better than Knowshon.

Huh?

Moreno fumble rate is once for every 61 touches.

Hillman currently has 15 touches.

gyldenlove
10-01-2012, 12:38 PM
Huh?

Moreno fumble rate is once for every 61 touches.

Hillman currently has 15 touches.

I agree, it is a little early to conclude anything about this ball security. I do like his playmaking ability and I think he provides a better change of pace complement to Mcgahee than Moreno does. Not sure he is the right guy for those tough short yardage and obvious run down situations.

El Jefe
10-01-2012, 12:39 PM
After previous fumbles and all-around crappy play, I'm all Hillman all the way.

Elway 4 Life
10-01-2012, 12:50 PM
After previous fumbles and all-around crappy play, I'm all Hillman all the way.

Agree. Especially after that catch and run yesterday. This kid is only gonna get better. I think we have seen the ceiling on Moreno.

RaiderH8r
10-01-2012, 01:03 PM
I like that Hillman brings a spark and every time he touches the ball it can go big. A little like getting it to DT on those screens. He breaks one tackle and can go from 0-60 in no time flat.

Knowshon just plays stale and uninspired. He had some moments last year where he was running less like Moreno and more like McGahee. Saw some of that this preseason but it doesn't seem to have carried over.

Ball is a special teams player who should stay on special teams.

Beantown Bronco
10-01-2012, 01:15 PM
I like that Hillman brings a spark and every time he touches the ball it can go big.......Knowshon just plays stale and uninspired.

More of the "people see what they want to see" posts:

Hillman longest run = 12 yds and longest reception = 29
Moreno longest run = 36 yds and longest reception = 45


Look, I'm not anti-Hillman. I want the guy to succeed, because it's obvious the team has no interest in giving Moreno any more chances. That's fine. I've moved on. But for people to constantly be throwing around all these glowing reviews about Hillman after 2 games of doing nothing that Moreno hasn't done many times just makes me laugh. I love his potential. But I also loved Moreno's potential. And I saw Moreno doing more, running behind a lesser OLine, when he was a rookie.

I love the enthusiasm. But let's not get carried away just yet.

BroncoBeavis
10-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Well our no logic has been spot on. You should eat your crow.

It's like some people don't get the whole point of being a fan and posting on a message board.

Honestly the endless "Foxy, Foxy, He's Our Man!" threads would get kinda stale after awhile, if everyone took this 'logic' to heart.

Garcia Bronco
10-01-2012, 01:18 PM
No question at this point that noShow should be shown the door. His career in the NFL is over. He can block, but con't run or get open for a catch. He has poor vision and frankly...when he's on the field...he causes bad things to happen that make the Broncos lose. In short, he's a loser. Best of luck to you NoShow in all the things that you do.

Beantown Bronco
10-01-2012, 01:23 PM
No question at this point that noShow should be shown the door. His career in the NFL is over. He can block, but con't run or get open for a catch. He has poor vision and frankly...when he's on the field...he causes bad things to happen that make the Broncos lose. In short, he's a loser. Best of luck to you NoShow in all the things that you do.

Can't get open for a catch? Please.

And I'd like to see some evidence of all this "causing bad things to happen that make the Broncos lose." Hell, we might have lost that Pittsburgh game if not for Knowshon's TD.

Garcia Bronco
10-01-2012, 01:24 PM
More of the "people see what they want to see" posts:

Hillman longest run = 12 yds and longest reception = 29
Moreno longest run = 36 yds and longest reception = 45


Look, I'm not anti-Hillman. I want the guy to succeed, because it's obvious the team has no interest in giving Moreno any more chances. That's fine. I've moved on. But for people to constantly be throwing around all these glowing reviews about Hillman after 2 games of doing nothing that Moreno hasn't done many times just makes me laugh. I love his potential. But I also loved Moreno's potential. And I saw Moreno doing more, running behind a lesser OLine, when he was a rookie.

I love the enthusiasm. But let's not get carried away just yet.

You can already tell that Hillman is a better runner. It's as obviously as Damrell being the greatest fire chief to ever live in Boston. Hillman isn't a better blocker yet. Either way...it's time to cut the losses.

Garcia Bronco
10-01-2012, 01:28 PM
Can't get open for a catch? Please.

And I'd like to see some evidence of all this "causing bad things to happen that make the Broncos lose." Hell, we might have lost that Pittsburgh game if not for Knowshon's TD.

He causes holding penalities by trying to dance in the back filed and not take the proper gap. He's un-reliable as a number 2(we don't know if he'll play this week because he's always injured). He's a fumbler, dude is always giving up the ball. He's slow. The next big run he breaks in the NFL will be his first.

jerseyboiler120
10-01-2012, 01:29 PM
I say if we see the same for the next 2 games. Then we have the bye week. That's a good time to make the decision.

Beantown Bronco
10-01-2012, 01:34 PM
Now, you're just making crap up.

He causes holding penalities by trying to dance in the back filed and not take the proper gap.

Zero evidence to support this. There are no more holding penalties called on Knowshon runs vs other RB's runs.

He's un-reliable as a number 2(we don't know if he'll play this week because he's always injured).

He only missed 3 games to injury outside of the one injury that cost him half of last year.

He's a fumbler, dude is always giving up the ball.

Once every 61 touches. You do realize that's better than most RBs, don't you?

Drunken.Broncoholic
10-01-2012, 01:43 PM
His time is up. He had his chance to prove something this year. Show everyone he can bounce back from his injury and finally make an impact. Did nothing in camp and preseason and has disappointed so far this year. When you're declared inactive in a game that the starting RB has a rib injury, then the fat lady is singing

He looked good sunday with a crooked flat billed hat and stunna shades on though.

BroncoBeavis
10-01-2012, 01:48 PM
15 yards on 8 carries this year. With a fumble in there to boot.

There's no way to spit polish that turd.

Now that he's been inactive for a couple games, I'm not sure why the whole "Coaches know best!" argument is still even being had.

The Knowboners got nothin' left to stand on. :)

Broncomutt
10-01-2012, 01:54 PM
Hoping I never see Moreno in a Bronco jersey on game day again. So happy to see him inactive 2 weeks in a row. He's earned it.

Frustrating watching him dance around and get stuffed for a loss, try and run up his blockers backs, get chased down from behind, lose his shoes, etc, etc, etc.

Bronco clock is winding down on this clown. :wave:

Garcia Bronco
10-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Now, you're just making crap up.



Zero evidence to support this. There are no more holding penalties called on Knowshon runs vs other RB's runs.



He only missed 3 games to injury outside of the one injury that cost him half of last year.



Once every 61 touches. You do realize that's better than most RBs, don't you?

Except that his dancing with the stars **** in the backfield causing holding penalties and it's distinguishable during the games. that's a direct result of his lack of vision. He has poor conditioning which also lends credence to the unreliable nature of his play in addition to the whole games he's missed. He's a drunk in our community(which is reason enough to send him packing) He's a fumbler and every 61 touches is not correct. Those are just fumbles lost. You can't make excuses for him after 4 years.

There is no maturation in his game and bottom line he doesn't perform on Sunday. Come on. You have to be on the right side of this and where you are isn't the right place.

Beantown Bronco
10-01-2012, 03:20 PM
He's a fumbler and every 61 touches is not correct. Those are just fumbles lost.

You suck at math.

http://www.nfl.com/player/knowshonmoreno/79619/profile

551 touches divided by 9 total fumbles = 61.2

If I went with total fumbles lost (8), it would be 68.9.

cmhargrove
10-01-2012, 03:32 PM
I'm not a Knowshon fan, but he is much like Hillis in my book. If you know how to use him properly (and have that luxury) he can be a valuable tool in the toolbox (no pun intended). However, I just don't think he will ever be a starting 1a type of running back. I think we will release him, and another team will give him a shot (to mixed success). However, I think it would be unwise to release him before the end of the season. Willis is already hurt, and we would be a couple quick plays from seeing Lance Ball as our starting RB.

Garcia, you are right in your criticism of Moreno, but saying he can't get open is just silly. If there is something he can do extremely well, it is receiving. I think the team that uses him as a receiving mismatch vs. linebackers in open space is the team that gets the most out of him. He just doesn't run well in confined spaces (like a starting RB should), but he is a significant receiving threat when defended by a linebacker.

I just don't think he fits what Fox is doing, and certainly hasn't lived up to his draft pick status (not necessarily his fault). Another McD f-up in the long run. Does it make you sick to think that LeSean McCoy was still on the table until the second round?

OrangeSe7en
10-01-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm not a Knowshon fan, but he is much like Hillis in my book. If you know how to use him properly (and have that luxury) he can be a valuable tool in the toolbox (no pun intended). However, I just don't think he will ever be a starting 1a type of running back. I think we will release him, and another team will give him a shot (to mixed success). However, I think it would be unwise to release him before the end of the season. Willis is already hurt, and we would be a couple quick plays from seeing Lance Ball as our starting RB.

Garcia, you are right in your criticism of Moreno, but saying he can't get open is just silly. If there is something he can do extremely well, it is receiving. I think the team that uses him as a receiving mismatch vs. linebackers in open space is the team that gets the most out of him. He just doesn't run well in confined spaces (like a starting RB should), but he is a significant receiving threat when defended by a linebacker.

I just don't think he fits what Fox is doing, and certainly hasn't lived up to his draft pick status (not necessarily his fault). Another McD f-up in the long run. Does it make you sick to think that LeSean McCoy was still on the table until the second round?

He's nothing like Hillis. I didn't even read past the first sentence. This was a no go on it's face.

OrangeSe7en
10-01-2012, 05:14 PM
Can't get open for a catch? Please.

And I'd like to see some evidence of all this "causing bad things to happen that make the Broncos lose." Hell, we might have lost that Pittsburgh game if not for Knowshon's TD.

Lance Ball could have scored on that run. The OLine was most responsible for that TD. It was only 5 ish yards.

OrangeSe7en
10-01-2012, 05:25 PM
More of the "people see what they want to see" posts:

Hillman longest run = 12 yds and longest reception = 29
Moreno longest run = 36 yds and longest reception = 45

Look, I'm not anti-Hillman. I want the guy to succeed, because it's obvious the team has no interest in giving Moreno any more chances. That's fine. I've moved on. But for people to constantly be throwing around all these glowing reviews about Hillman after 2 games of doing nothing that Moreno hasn't done many times just makes me laugh. I love his potential. But I also loved Moreno's potential. And I saw Moreno doing more, running behind a lesser OLine, when he was a rookie.

I love the enthusiasm. But let's not get carried away just yet.

This coming from the same guy who was screaming about sample size.

KevinJames
10-01-2012, 06:01 PM
I'm not a Knowshon fan, but he is much like Hillis in my book. If you know how to use him properly (and have that luxury) he can be a valuable tool in the toolbox (no pun intended). However, I just don't think he will ever be a starting 1a type of running back. I think we will release him, and another team will give him a shot (to mixed success). However, I think it would be unwise to release him before the end of the season. Willis is already hurt, and we would be a couple quick plays from seeing Lance Ball as our starting RB.

Garcia, you are right in your criticism of Moreno, but saying he can't get open is just silly. If there is something he can do extremely well, it is receiving. I think the team that uses him as a receiving mismatch vs. linebackers in open space is the team that gets the most out of him. He just doesn't run well in confined spaces (like a starting RB should), but he is a significant receiving threat when defended by a linebacker.

I just don't think he fits what Fox is doing, and certainly hasn't lived up to his draft pick status (not necessarily his fault). Another McD f-up in the long run. Does it make you sick to think that LeSean McCoy was still on the table until the second round?

Knowshon is slow compared to Hillman

Knowshon and Hillman are really nothing alike outside of maybe being able to catch passes out of the backfield, but ill say Hillman is more like LeSean McCoy if anyone.

gotfredson
10-01-2012, 06:03 PM
Simple question

Simple question from a simple girl.

Beantown Bronco
10-02-2012, 09:27 AM
This coming from the same guy who was screaming about sample size.

Ummmm, two completely different scenarios. Sample size doesn't apply when you are responding to posters who claim that they've seen Hillman do things in that limited sample that they never saw Moreno do.

DENVERDUI55
10-02-2012, 09:47 AM
Ummmm, two completely different scenarios. Sample size doesn't apply when you are responding to posters who claim that they've seen Hillman do things in that limited sample that they never saw Moreno do.

Your right in the sense the unknown with Hillman brings a lot more upside than the known of the roster fringe that is Moreno. We do know that Hillman brings a sense of speed that the offense needs. Moreno makes the team slower. Ball is the #2 BTW and he is nothing special but plays the game smart and doesn't make the stupid mental mistakes or untimely fumble like slowshon.

RaiderH8r
10-02-2012, 09:48 AM
More of the "people see what they want to see" posts:

Hillman longest run = 12 yds and longest reception = 29
Moreno longest run = 36 yds and longest reception = 45


Look, I'm not anti-Hillman. I want the guy to succeed, because it's obvious the team has no interest in giving Moreno any more chances. That's fine. I've moved on. But for people to constantly be throwing around all these glowing reviews about Hillman after 2 games of doing nothing that Moreno hasn't done many times just makes me laugh. I love his potential. But I also loved Moreno's potential. And I saw Moreno doing more, running behind a lesser OLine, when he was a rookie.

I love the enthusiasm. But let's not get carried away just yet.

I'm not saying he's flat outperformed Moreno. Rather I think he brings a spark and has performed well enough to continue to get opportunities. If those opportunities come at Knowshon's expense so be it.

RaiderH8r
10-02-2012, 09:49 AM
It isn't an either-or scenario but, like I said, Hillman has performed well enough to continue to get an increased work load and more opportunities. Right up until he doesn't perform well enough.

Beantown Bronco
10-02-2012, 10:02 AM
Ball......doesn't make the stupid mental mistakes or untimely fumble like slowshon.

Ummmm, what?!?

Lance Ball, for his career, fumbles the ball once every 47 touches.
Moreno, for his career, fumbles once every 61 touches.


Once again, people caught literally making things up to tear Moreno down. This is beyond laughable.

BroncoBeavis
10-02-2012, 10:09 AM
Ummmm, two completely different scenarios. Sample size doesn't apply when you are responding to posters who claim that they've seen Hillman do things in that limited sample that they never saw Moreno do.

Judging a RB is pretty subjective. I agree that it's hard to always express in stats. I don't mind the way KM runs when out in space. But watching his decision-making (or lack thereof) in the backfield is painful. So seeing what Hillman did in the backfield (even when it looked like there wasn't anything there) seemed like quite a contrast. Sure, it was only one play. Maybe a fluke. But I have no memory of KM making that kind of play. If he did, it was a long time ago, so he's had plenty of chances to rinse and repeat by now.

Maybe Hillman is no better than KM. But at least there's a maybe there. We already know KM is no better than KM.

Rabb
10-02-2012, 10:13 AM
We already know KM is no better than KM.

mind = blown

DENVERDUI55
10-02-2012, 10:13 AM
Ummmm, what?!?

Lance Ball, for his career, fumbles the ball once every 47 touches.
Moreno, for his career, fumbles once every 61 touches.


Once again, people caught literally making things up to tear Moreno down. This is beyond laughable.

Notice I put untimely. Ball has lost one fumble and only fumble 4 times in his career. Again you love using stats instead of your eyes for weak arguments. Your love of Moreno is disturbing and almost as disturbing that Moreno can't beat out Ball.

Beantown Bronco
10-02-2012, 10:14 AM
But I have no memory of KM making that kind of play. If he did, it was a long time ago, so he's had plenty of chances to rinse and repeat by now.

He's only gotten 45 carries over the course of the last two seasons, so I'm not sure "plenty" is the right word.

Beantown Bronco
10-02-2012, 10:21 AM
Notice I put untimely. Ball has lost one fumble and only fumble 4 times in his career. Again you love using stats instead of your eyes for weak arguments. Your love of Moreno is disturbing and almost as disturbing that Moreno can't beat out Ball.

Unless you're up by 30 late in the game, EVERY fumble is untimely.

And, once again, you're outright LYING. He had two lost fumbles last year alone.....in 96 carries. Please explain how they were not untimely.

DENVERDUI55
10-02-2012, 10:41 AM
Unless you're up by 30 late in the game, EVERY fumble is untimely.

And, once again, you're outright LYING. He had two lost fumbles last year alone.....in 96 carries. Please explain how they were not untimely.

Sorry I didn't page down to recieving stats. I should know that a Slowshon apologist knows all the little stats and tidbits to try and argue for the bum. The fumble against Detroit made no difference in that game and the one against New England was a killer but to be honest they would of whooped our butts regardless. Anyways I'm not saying Ball is great just that the fact the Slowshon can't beat him out shows he is a dead duck in Denver.

razorwire77
10-02-2012, 10:46 AM
Unless there is an injury, Moreno is done with this team. Talking about him is a moot point. Honestly though, from a running back standpoint I'd rather see Moreno activated than Lance Ball, but that's never going to happen because a.) Ball plays special teams, b.) he has pictures of Joe Ellis walking into an Asian massage parlor.

Agamemnon
10-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Unless there is an injury, Moreno is done with this team. Talking about him is a moot point. Honestly though, from a running back standpoint I'd rather see Moreno activated than Lance Ball, but that's never going to happen because a.) Ball plays special teams, b.) he has pictures of Joe Ellis walking into an Asian massage parlor.

Holy ****, that's why they let this scrub play? It all makes sense now. Hilarious!

OrangeSe7en
10-02-2012, 04:37 PM
Ummmm, two completely different scenarios. Sample size doesn't apply when you are responding to posters who claim that they've seen Hillman do things in that limited sample that they never saw Moreno do.

Ha, right! Aren't you the same guy who said the longest run doesn't matter... even though you offer that as rebuttal?

BroncoBeavis
10-02-2012, 04:41 PM
He's only gotten 45 carries over the course of the last two seasons, so I'm not sure "plenty" is the right word.

First you'd have to show me Knowshon making a cut that made an entire defense look silly. Then we can work out the rest from there.

swaiy
10-02-2012, 04:49 PM
mind = blown

Inception 2

Beantown Bronco
10-03-2012, 07:20 AM
Ha, right! Aren't you the same guy who said the longest run doesn't matter... even though you offer that as rebuttal?

Ummmm, please try to keep up. I'm offering it as a direct rebuttal to those that say Hillman has shown more explosiveness than Moreno has ever shown. I'd say it applies in such a debate.

Beantown Bronco
10-03-2012, 07:25 AM
First you'd have to show me Knowshon making a cut that made an entire defense look silly. Then we can work out the rest from there.

The very first play featured in this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81485319/WK-12-Knowshon-Moreno-highlights

BroncoBeavis
10-03-2012, 08:25 AM
The very first play featured in this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81485319/WK-12-Knowshon-Moreno-highlights

Looks like two defensive linemen tripping over each other on what otherwise would've been a typical KM backfield dance and 3 yard loss.

Even if the "It worked in college" backfield reverse-jump-spin works ok once out of every ten times, it's not worth the 9 other plays for loss as he gives up more field to try to make something happen.

In fact that play is a perfect showcase of what KM does wrong in the backfield. One cut and go (forward) You would've never seen TD ever try that kind of crap in the backfield.

swaiy
10-03-2012, 08:50 AM
As soon as Hillman shows complete competence in paa protection, Im almost certain he will be the primary back behind McGahee.

Beantown Bronco
10-03-2012, 08:53 AM
I always love how people will cling to this notion of Knowshon dancing in the backfield even when indisputable video evidence shows how multiple defenders are in the backfield right in front of him before he even takes the handoff, essentially untouched by any OLinemen.

If Hillman makes that same exact run last weekend, people are here praising him for 10 pages, celebrating and running naked in the streets....talking about how he is better than Knowshon because he turned a negative 5 yard run into a positive 10 yard run....something "Knowshon never did in his time here".

Rabb
10-03-2012, 09:01 AM
This is right up there with the most annoying argument going on the Mane. Moreno is inactive, Hillman is getting reps. Let's just move the **** on and deal with it one way or another then in the end everyone can throw around I told you so's.

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2012, 09:18 AM
This is right up there with the most annoying argument going on the Mane. Moreno is inactive, Hillman is getting reps. Let's just move the **** on and deal with it one way or another then in the end everyone can throw around I told you so's.

Not a chance.

We're going to beat that horse to death, piss on him, bury him, dig him up, beat him some more, then go after his family!

oubronco
10-03-2012, 09:25 AM
This is right up there with the most annoying argument going on the Mane. Moreno is inactive, Hillman is getting reps. Let's just move the **** on and deal with it one way or another then in the end everyone can throw around I told you so's.

:thanku:

Rabb
10-03-2012, 09:30 AM
Not a chance.

We're going to beat that horse to death, piss on him, bury him, dig him up, beat him some more, then go after his family!

No definitely not, we still argue the Tebow thing for ****'s sake. It's just irritating no matter which side of the fence you are on.

The staff is choosing to keep Moreno inactive for a reason, personally all stats aside...it's hard to argue it with a standard eye test but what do I know. I just want the best running back option we have to play.

DENVERDUI55
10-03-2012, 09:48 AM
The very first play featured in this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81485319/WK-12-Knowshon-Moreno-highlights

Look at the second play and that lack of speed shows. That should of been a long gain. I watched those highlights and was really impressed with some of the OL blocking on that NYG DL. Graham had a great game. Moreno leaves field with injury. Typical that might of been his best game outside of KC games.

TheReverend
10-03-2012, 10:05 AM
No definitely not, we still argue the Tebow thing for ****'s sake. It's just irritating no matter which side of the fence you are on.

The staff is choosing to keep Moreno inactive for a reason, personally all stats aside...it's hard to argue it with a standard eye test but what do I know. I just want the best running back option we have to play.

Bro we still argue the Plummer thing

Rabb
10-03-2012, 10:06 AM
Bro we still argue the Plummer thing

good point

Beantown Bronco
10-03-2012, 10:09 AM
Look at the second play and that lack of speed shows. That should of been a long gain.

people see what they want to see

Typical that might of been his best game outside of KC games.

2009 vs NE.


Once again, it is what it is. He's done here, barring any major injuries at the RB position. I know this and am not arguing otherwise. I'd like to move on and let this thread die as much as Rabb, so please stop bumping my posts and trying to get me to change my mind about something that doesn't need to be changed.

I'm on board with Hillman. I want him to succeed as much as anyone. He has potential. Let's see where he goes from here. All I ask is that we just not pretend he's shown anything that we haven't seen before out of other recent disappointments at the positon, unless of course he actually does do something we haven't seen before out of Moreno, Bell, the other Bell, etc..

It's a tall order, I know.

BroncoBeavis
10-03-2012, 10:30 AM
I always love how people will cling to this notion of Knowshon dancing in the backfield even when indisputable video evidence shows how multiple defenders are in the backfield right in front of him before he even takes the handoff, essentially untouched by any OLinemen.

If Hillman makes that same exact run last weekend, people are here praising him for 10 pages, celebrating and running naked in the streets....talking about how he is better than Knowshon because he turned a negative 5 yard run into a positive 10 yard run....something "Knowshon never did in his time here".

Maybe. Hard to argue with success. If KM were Barry Sanders, he'd make a living doing that and everyone would love him for it. But he's not. And last year, it was pretty clear that a 30 year-old free agent who didn't do all that jumping around was more consistent. Which is why Willis got more carries. (before KM got hurt)

DENVERDUI55
10-03-2012, 10:35 AM
I'd like to move on and let this thread die as much as Rabb, so please stop bumping my posts and trying to get me to change my mind about something that doesn't need to be changed..

Well if you want it to die don't post on it. It is hardly bumping a post when you posted a video less than 4 hours ago. You wanted us to watch and comment on it right?

broncosteven
10-03-2012, 10:42 AM
This is right up there with the most annoying argument going on the Mane. Moreno is inactive, Hillman is getting reps. Let's just move the **** on and deal with it one way or another then in the end everyone can throw around I told you so's.

You guys can feel free to rep me for being right about the following over the last 3 years:

mCd
KM
mCd
Ayers
mCd
Tebow
mCd
and lastly:
mCd


I will admit to being wrong about Hillis and Cutler but I TOLD YOU MF'ers THAT mCd WAS A MISTAKE!

Bronco Yoda
10-03-2012, 11:00 AM
We need to find and develop a bigger tougher back that can push the pile and hold up to the punishment and give a little punishment back.

These little scat-backs are nothing more than temporary kindling to stoke the fire. We need a big ****ing log to keep the running game burning.

swaiy
10-03-2012, 11:06 AM
We need to find and develop a bigger tougher back that can push the pile and hold up to the punishment and give a little punishment back.

These little scat-backs are nothing more than temporary kindling to stoke the fire. We need a big ****ing log to keep the running game burning.

Youre such a poet.

Bronco Yoda
10-03-2012, 11:19 AM
Listen and learn little kiddo.

Nwp-Apap
10-03-2012, 11:46 AM
I always love how people will cling to this notion of Knowshon dancing in the backfield even when indisputable video evidence shows how multiple defenders are in the backfield right in front of him before he even takes the handoff, essentially untouched by any OLinemen.

If Hillman makes that same exact run last weekend, people are here praising him for 10 pages, celebrating and running naked in the streets....talking about how he is better than Knowshon because he turned a negative 5 yard run into a positive 10 yard run....something "Knowshon never did in his time here".

I applaud you for being the voice of reason in this thread, man.

DENVERDUI55
10-03-2012, 12:09 PM
I applaud you for being the voice of reason in this thread, man.
If the rumor is true way to pat yourself on your back. Nwp-Apap is Beantown.

Beantown Bronco
10-03-2012, 12:21 PM
If the rumor is true way to pat yourself on your back. Nwp-Apap is Beantown.

Here's his first post ever on the Mane. If you think this sounds like me, then I don't know what to tell you. If you think I'm that insecure that I need to create alt accounts for the sole purpose of patting myself on the back, then I really don't know what to tell you.

I as so attended training camp this year a handful of times, 7 to be exact, and I can comfortably say that Orton was not as head and shoulders above Tebow as many like to say.

Of course, Orton is going to look somewhat better than Tim in these non contact drills. He would also look better than Micheal Vick in the same drills, and who of those two do you think is the better player?

These practices included no contact on the QB, and the defense hardly trying to sack the QB. This benefits Orton. In the real games, however, especially on a team such as the Broncos with a young and struggling OL, you're not going to get a clean pocket to sit and pick apart a defense from. You're going to have defenders come at you from all angles, you're going to have your OL pushed into your face. When all this happens, it creates pressure, and Orton hardly has nerves of steel.

Tebow, however, IMO, would have more success on this team than Orton has had, if not just for the sole fact that he has a certain amount of mobility that would turn a would be sack from Orton, into perhaps something positive.

Furthermore, everyone tries to discount what we saw from Tebow in the last 3 games of 2010, and I don't know why..

BroncoBeavis
10-03-2012, 01:00 PM
Here's his first post ever on the Mane. If you think this sounds like me, then I don't know what to tell you.

You should take credit for that, man. Might be the smartest thing you've ever posted. :)

Chris
10-03-2012, 04:14 PM
We need to find and develop a bigger tougher back that can push the pile and hold up to the punishment and give a little punishment back.

These little scat-backs are nothing more than temporary kindling to stoke the fire. We need a big ****ing log to keep the running game burning.

I just made a big ****ing log have one with sprinkles.

Big bruiser doesn't really fit the system we're running and mcgahee plays big anyway.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2012, 04:54 PM
Ummmm, please try to keep up. I'm offering it as a direct rebuttal to those that say Hillman has shown more explosiveness than Moreno has ever shown. I'd say it applies in such a debate.

You're the one who should keep up (not to mention avoid contradicting yourself). You've dwelled on the sample size, yet you try to use the career long of Moreno, who has 3 years of experience, against Hillman, who has 2 games of experience (and as the backup at that). Moreno's 40 time leading up to being drafted was around 4.6 and that's also been his game speed. The career long you mention for him, after 3 years, is not really very good and it's that of someone who lacks speed.

TomServo
10-06-2012, 03:12 AM
holy crap. still arguing if KM was worth the 12th pic in the entire draft?
of course he wasnt! a first round running back better be earl frakin campbell. not the worst bust in bronco history since ted gregory. never ever pick a RB in the first round. of course McD Knew better.

CEH
10-06-2012, 06:57 AM
Chris Farley
Remember when in 2009 knowshown had a nice run for 12 yards
Good times
This is more about no show than hillman
He had the 2nd team rb behind a 30 year old rb and pissed it away

cmhargrove
10-06-2012, 07:09 AM
He's nothing like Hillis. I didn't even read past the first sentence. This was a no go on it's face.

I was wondering why this thread hadn't died yet, then I went back to read some replies. Some of the arguments around here are just inane, and it's no wonder we get this many pages of circular arguments. In my post, I used Hillis as a metaphor. Just to help you, I even repeated the metaphor by saying "tool in the toolbox.". Not that my post matters to you, but your response was just idiotic.

A direct comparison would have been "KM runs the ball like Hillis," which I didn't say (if you would bother reading before replying).

People just need to slow down from their "strong" opinions and concern themselves with comprehension. We could have easily cut this thread in half and let Beantown make his points (which are valid and substantiated). KM is no superstar, we all agree. However, this season is still being written and until he is permanently off the team, we haven't written the final page.