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View Full Version : Not Another 3-4 Thread . . .


manchambo
08-21-2012, 09:12 AM
But it's not my fault. Kiszla is suggesting it over at the post: http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_21359025/mark-kiszla-broncos-can-fix-dents-their-defense?source=rss

My first reaction: silly. But then I read the article and he makes some valid points.

First, how can you maximize the abilities of your top two defensive playmakers? Seemingly by allowing miller and doom to move around more as olbs. That is where doom had the most success, and it seems like miller's natural position.

Second, DJ who? Would there be any reason not to cut him if miller and doom were manning the outside spots?

Third, more than in previous years, they seem to have line men who would fit the scheme in Wolfe, warren and bannan.

It is doubtful, to be sure, that they would make the change so late in camp. And if they did you would have to wonder how well they're running things not to have realized it should be implemented for the start. But on the other hand it's sure starting to seem like they're drafting for one scheme and implementing another.

lolcopter
08-21-2012, 09:17 AM
Our run defense sucks. A 3-4 will not help this

Denver Post trying to sell papers, that's it


Plus you need an elite NT to have even a halfway decent 3-4, and we have nobody for that. Hell, look at the chorfs reaching in the draft trying to fill that role. Simple fact is college/NFL personnel is flush with 4-3 talent, 3-4 talent not so much

Beantown Bronco
08-21-2012, 09:23 AM
First, how can you maximize the abilities of your top two defensive playmakers? Seemingly by allowing miller and doom to move around more as olbs. That is where doom had the most success,

Someone here did an analysis of his performance that year (2009) and it showed decisively that most of his production came when he was lined up as a DE with his hand on the ground in the 4 man front....not standing up at OLB in the 3-4 alignment.

DENVERDUI55
08-21-2012, 09:25 AM
Well the way we run a lot of our 4-3 under looks it is basically a 3-4.

pricejj
08-21-2012, 09:29 AM
Well the way we run a lot of our 4-3 under looks it is basically a 3-4.

Yep, you're right...it's basically a 5-2 (with Dumervil and Miller on the ends), which is what a 3-4 turns into in pass rush situations. Good observation.

lolcopter
08-21-2012, 09:31 AM
Someone here did an analysis of his performance that year (2009) and it showed decisively that most of his production came when he was lined up as a DE with his hand on the ground in the 4 man front....not standing up at OLB in the 3-4 alignment.

Adding to that Doom is a huge liability is pass coverage and run stopping and a base 3-4 is just a bad idea

2KBack
08-21-2012, 09:40 AM
Well the way we run a lot of our 4-3 under looks it is basically a 3-4.

Fox was pretty open about this when he was hired. He said the base formation maybe be "4-3," but he prefers flexibility and simply adjusting the defense based upon the personnel and what the situation is on gameday.

lolcopter
08-21-2012, 09:41 AM
I'll trust Fox over DP beat writers every day of the week and twice on Sundays

Tombstone RJ
08-21-2012, 09:46 AM
I see a lot of 5-2 alignments already. Heck, Obiozor is listed as a DE but he's got a LBer's number--54.

wtf?

Yah, it's all hybrid all the time anyway.

Bacchus
08-21-2012, 09:57 AM
Well the way we run a lot of our 4-3 under looks it is basically a 3-4.

I agree when Miller is pass rushing it is basically a 3-4 defense. As long as Von and Doom are out there rushing the QB you can call it whatever you want.

peacepipe
08-21-2012, 10:05 AM
Our run defense sucks. A 3-4 will not help this

Denver Post trying to sell papers, that's it


Plus you need an elite NT to have even a halfway decent 3-4, and we have nobody for that. Hell, look at the chorfs reaching in the draft trying to fill that role. Simple fact is college/NFL personnel is flush with 4-3 talent, 3-4 talent not so much

BS, you don't need an elite NT to make the switch. we didn't have one a couple yrs ago under nolan when we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Doom had his best yr as a bronco. we should've stayed commited to the 3-4.

Kaylore
08-21-2012, 10:06 AM
Because we need more of our crappy linebackers on the field!

peacepipe
08-21-2012, 10:11 AM
Because we need more of our crappy linebackers on the field!

von & doom aren't too shabby,but I guess you disagree.

lolcopter
08-21-2012, 10:13 AM
BS, you don't need an elite NT to make the switch. we didn't have one a couple yrs ago under nolan when we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Doom had his best yr as a bronco. we should've stayed commited to the 3-4.

Agree to disagree. I've had this argument with you before so i dont expect you to change your mind anytime soon, but if you really think Doom is a good LB outside of strict pass rushing situations I dunno what to say

As someone mentioned earlier, most of his production in 09 came with a hand in the dirt

And outside of those first 6 games, Nolan's defense was sh*t

Kaylore
08-21-2012, 10:14 AM
von & doom aren't too shabby,but I guess you disagree.

http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/6/60/6011d350_Ppf6e.gif

broncocalijohn
08-21-2012, 10:15 AM
Because we need more of our crappy linebackers on the field!

Maybe we just go nickel package when they rush the QB. Give Moore a LB number too. I think the opponent will totally believe that one. It does keep the LBs to a minimum....hell, make it a dime package.

bronco militia
08-21-2012, 10:16 AM
Because we need more of our crappy linebackers on the field!

LOL

Kaylore
08-21-2012, 10:21 AM
Maybe we just go nickel package when they rush the QB. Give Moore a LB number too. I think the opponent will totally believe that one. It does keep the LBs to a minimum....hell, make it a dime package.

In passing downs, we basically play a 3-4. Doom and Von are standing up. But in a base package when you need your OLB's to fight off blocks and the MLB's fill gaps, we would be putting our worst players in run support on the field - and that includes Dumervil and for right now, Miller. That's why this idea wouldn't work. There are some advantages in that I think some of Mays' weaknesses like his poor range, would be limited in the 34, but at the end of the day, no. We would suck in the 34.

Garcia Bronco
08-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Our run defense looks goo dthus far this year in preseason from our firsts. Our pass coverage is good too...and just wait until the DB's realize they don't have to cover for 5-8 seconds because of our pass rush. This defense is going to be good.

Tombstone RJ
08-21-2012, 10:38 AM
I'm hoping the Broncos keep Obiozor too, especially with Hunter going down with an injury.

mkporter
08-21-2012, 10:45 AM
In passing downs, we basically play a 3-4. Doom and Von are standing up. But in a base package when you need your OLB's to fight off blocks and the MLB's fill gaps, we would be putting our worst players in run support on the field - and that includes Dumervil and for right now, Miller. That's why this idea wouldn't work. There are some advantages in that I think some of Mays' weaknesses like his poor range, would be limited in the 34, but at the end of the day, no. We would suck in the 34.

Disagree on Miller being one of our worst run support players. He blew up a lot of running plays last last year.

lolcopter
08-21-2012, 10:47 AM
Disagree on Miller being one of our worst run support players. He blew up a lot of running plays last last year.

Not to mention that blow up and fumble scoop in the first preseason game

Kaylore
08-21-2012, 11:37 AM
Not to mention that blow up and fumble scoop in the first preseason game

Um the running back dropped the ball on a muffed fumble. Miller did have some tackles for losses, but he often was out of position and was benched in several games because he was not playing the run correctly. That's a fact that Miller himself admitted he needs to improve on.

Bacchus
08-21-2012, 11:40 AM
Um the running back dropped the ball on a muffed fumble. Miller did have some tackles for losses, but he often was out of position and was benched in several games because he was not playing the run correctly. That's a fact that Miller himself admitted he needs to improve on.

yeah, you are right. They were taking him out of the lineup on first downs and replacing him with Mays, I believe.

crush17
08-21-2012, 11:55 AM
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-are-the-broncos-using-the-right-defensive-scheme

Kiszla is a freaking clown. End of story.

Drek
08-21-2012, 12:14 PM
Well the way we run a lot of our 4-3 under looks it is basically a 3-4.

Pretty much.

To me it looks like the goal Fox and JDR have is to simply use our defensive front as a collection of packages that let our play makers in the front seven do their thing.

The Giants have been doing this for a while now and we see what their DL is capable of, even with weak LB and DB play behind them frequently.

Fox and JDR will have this team line up in any alignment that lets Doom, Miller, Wolfe, and if healthy Warren, disrupt the opposition.

Bmore Manning
08-21-2012, 12:27 PM
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-are-the-broncos-using-the-right-defensive-scheme

Kiszla is a freaking clown. End of story.

I really like the idea of Wolfe at DE on base downs to be that Red Bryant DE in Seattles 4-3 scheme. Except Seattle has Bruce Irvin coming off the edge.. Denver has Von Miller. That's a very effective 4-3 Under look!

broncocalijohn
08-21-2012, 01:00 PM
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-are-the-broncos-using-the-right-defensive-scheme

Kiszla is a freaking clown. End of story.

Great article explaining our schemes. Good quote too about Miller.

Itís basically no different than how a 3-4 team would use him, except that he gets to roam more in a 4-3, because the DE usually has contain responsibilities, not the OLB. He also plays closer to the middle of the field, so he can be more of a factor on run plays that go the other way, by giving him less ground to make up. I think the Broncos are using Von in the most ideal way possible.

Yes, 3-4 OLBs tend to get more sacks than 4-3 OLBs, but not because theyíre 3-4 OLBs coming from a standup position. Itís because theyíre frequently assigned to rush the passer, and most 4-3 OLBs arenít. Von Miller is a special case, and it makes him more difficult for offenses to account for, because he has to be located on every play.

Agamemnon
08-21-2012, 01:06 PM
Del Rio and Fox are 4-3 guys. So whether or not we have the personnel for it, it's never going to happen.

BroncoBen
08-21-2012, 01:19 PM
I'll trust Fox over DP beat writers every day of the week and twice on Sundays

No $hit... my first thought was.. I'm sure John Fox is reading the Denver Post and thinking to himself.. "Why didn't I think about this idea".

DENVERDUI55
08-21-2012, 03:59 PM
Look what Kiszla is writing on twitter and you will realize how bad he is at reporting football.

manchambo
08-21-2012, 04:05 PM
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-are-the-broncos-using-the-right-defensive-scheme

Kiszla is a freaking clown. End of story.

Kiszla may be a clown, but this is not an impressive analysis by the fat man. Doom Miller and Ayers all are prototypical 4-3 ends? And yet Ty Warren for some reason doesn't fit the prototype for a 3-4 tackle? Goodness.

But I think the whole concept of that article is flawed. Do we make scheme decisions by tallying up every scrub on the roster who would fit better in a scheme? Should we be making any decisions based on Unrein or Sialva's ideal position?

Of course not. You should adopt the scheme that fits your best players. Dumervil had his best season in a 3-4 and he is nothing close to a prototypical end. Warren and Bannan both have flourished in a 3-4. Wolfe played tackle and they seem to see him as a tweener, seemingly a good fit for 3-4 end.

And it isn't exactly novel to suggest that Miller might be more suited to the 3-4.

Action
08-21-2012, 04:09 PM
This article solidifies Kiszla's reputation.

DENVERDUI55
08-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Kiszla may be a clown, but this is not an impressive analysis by the fat man. Doom Miller and Ayers all are prototypical 4-3 ends? And yet Ty Warren for some reason doesn't fit the prototype for a 3-4 tackle? Goodness.

But I think the whole concept of that article is flawed. Do we make scheme decisions by tallying up every scrub on the roster who would fit better in a scheme? Should we be making any decisions based on Unrein or Sialva's ideal position?

Of course not. You should adopt the scheme that fits your best players. Dumervil had his best season in a 3-4 and he is nothing close to a prototypical end. Warren and Bannan both have flourished in a 3-4. Wolfe played tackle and they seem to see him as a tweener, seemingly a good fit for 3-4 end.

And it isn't exactly novel to suggest that Miller might be more suited to the 3-4.

Ok you break down a 3-4 and tell us who fits a 3-4. Warren, Miller do. Doom not really he can't drop in pass coverage and most of his sacks 2 years ago came with a hand on the ground. Bannon use his years in Denver to compare schematically where he fits.

crush17
08-21-2012, 06:04 PM
Kiszla may be a clown, but this is not an impressive analysis by the fat man. Doom Miller and Ayers all are prototypical 4-3 ends? And yet Ty Warren for some reason doesn't fit the prototype for a 3-4 tackle? Goodness.

But I think the whole concept of that article is flawed. Do we make scheme decisions by tallying up every scrub on the roster who would fit better in a scheme? Should we be making any decisions based on Unrein or Sialva's ideal position?

Of course not. You should adopt the scheme that fits your best players. Dumervil had his best season in a 3-4 and he is nothing close to a prototypical end. Warren and Bannan both have flourished in a 3-4. Wolfe played tackle and they seem to see him as a tweener, seemingly a good fit for 3-4 end. And it isn't exactly novel to suggest that Miller might be more suited to the 3-4.

The article points out that most of Dumervil's sacks/success came when he had his hand in the ground.

Additionally, the article discussed WHY they would not want to use Wolfe as a 3-4 end. His pass rush skills become muted and why would you want to take away one of his best attributes?

Did you even really read the article or are you just another IAOFM basher?

Kaylore
08-21-2012, 06:34 PM
Did you even really read the article or are you just another IAOFM basher?

I didn't even know there were any of those...

Bmore Manning
08-22-2012, 09:15 AM
Titans cut Shaun Smith.. There's a beefy 360 pound NT. I read he's around 330 now and was in "fantastic" shape. Just another cap casualty..

Before the thread starts about him, I'll ask, who wants him?