Redistribution Of Wealth

[frerottenextelway]

There's 10s of millions of dollars going from the Far Right to places like NBC News in a failed effort to buy this election. As a lib, I'm against money in politics, but I appreciate karma. God Bless this country!

[Jetmeck]

There's 10s of millions of dollars going from the Far Right to places like NBC News in a failed effort to buy this election. As a lib, I'm against money in politics, but I appreciate karma. God Bless this country!

don't buy this.............MSNBC seems to be even handed most of the time.......Fox news out rights lies along with Romney picking a sentence out of an Obama speech and taking totally out of context.

Letting these richs ****s Koch brothers and Adelman give any amount they want seems to be the problem to me. Not fair to the
the rest of us and yes I still think it was wrong even if they were giving to democrats and no you retards unions are not anywhere close to the kind of money just a couple of these rich guys have given and unions are pulling for the working person........hard to fault that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/ws-record-high.jpg

[chadta]

http://www.bartcop.com/ws-record-high.jpg

while this is one of the better pictures you have posted, in terms of accuracy anyhow, what about option 3 ?

the one where we dont tax the heck out of corporations since they dont pay tax anyhow they just collect it, but we also dont subsidize them, they are left to sink or swim all alone, without interference, under government rules, that are laid out in a way to protect the people, you know the real reason we have government in the first place.

[cutthemdown]

Every yr the stock market should reach a new high. So being close to an all time high is horrid 4 yrs into your term.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Great ad:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QRpWir4eDrs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

while this is one of the better pictures you have posted, in terms of accuracy anyhow, what about option 3 ?

the one where we dont tax the heck out of corporations since they dont pay tax anyhow they just collect it, but we also dont subsidize them, they are left to sink or swim all alone, without interference, under government rules, that are laid out in a way to protect the people, you know the real reason we have government in the first place.

How about ending subsidies AND closing all the loopholes that allow those corporations to avoid paying taxes? That would be a good start in a return to fiscal sanity....but I guess the supply side myth dies hard for some people.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/300835_512386128778940_980620004_n.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Abraham Lincoln was committed to improving the infrastructure of America, believing that roads, waterways and rail connections would enable thousands of families to emerge from poverty. Lincoln believed a real democracy would be a meritocracy where those born in the lower ranks could rise as far as their natural talents and discipline might take them. Lincoln was a Republican, but no Republican today would support his beliefs.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/580975_402741299784955_345362744_n.jpg

[Jetmeck]

Every yr the stock market should reach a new high. So being close to an all time high is horrid 4 yrs into your term.

how stupid are you ? seriously................considering where it was when Bush handed it off its a gd miracle.

wake up

[chadta]

How about ending subsidies AND closing all the loopholes that allow those corporations to avoid paying taxes? That would be a good start in a return to fiscal sanity....but I guess the supply side myth dies hard for some people.

Really ? have i not been in here calling for a flat tax on everybody, and i mean everybody, no deductions, no loopholes no nothing, and you are going to fire back with this ?

There are lots of people that dont want to see corporations subsidized, but if they dont want to see that money given to the leeches of society you call them evil, and act as if you see something that they cant. Spare me will ya.

[TonyR]

Every yr the stock market should reach a new high. So being close to an all time high is horrid 4 yrs into your term.

LOL I used to think, despite often disagreeing with you, that you were one of the better, more reasonable posters in the WRP. So much for that. I mean, how laughably stupid is this statement of yours? We've just been through a massive recession and haven't remotely fully recovered. Banks and automakers had to be bailed out, hundreds of banks have failed, the real estate bubble burst, unemployment and underemployment are high, gas is expensive, Europe is in an economic crisis, and we've been impacted by numerous climate and natural disaster issues. And yet you think the stock market should be reaching an all time high every year through this, and don't notice the glaring fact that despite all the economic problems that the stock market has done very well. And while as investors we should be happy with this, we should also be a bit concerned because strong corporate performance during such hard times shows how lopsided things are. The average guy is struggling while corporate executives laugh all the way to the bank. Wake the f*** up, cut.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Really ? have i not been in here calling for a flat tax on everybody, and i mean everybody, no deductions, no loopholes no nothing, and you are going to fire back with this ?

You honestly think your support for a flat tax bolsters your credibility? Ha!

There are lots of people that dont want to see corporations subsidized, but if they dont want to see that money given to the leeches of society you call them evil, and act as if you see something that they cant. Spare me will ya.

There you go showing the true conservative colors.

Disgraceful :oyvey:

[chadta]

You honestly think your support for a flat tax bolsters your credibility? Ha!



There you go showing the true conservative colors.

Disgraceful :oyvey:

Im sorry would it have been better if instead of leaches I called them the poor unfortunate women who fell onto a penis multiple times and ended up with a full soccer team to call their own, while the man attached to the penis pulled a disappearing act leaving me on the hook financially for the future inmate ?

Isnt it amazing how those who cant figure out how to put on a condom know the ins and outs of the welfare system?

I can think of 4 single mothers I know pretty well, 2 go to work, go to school and struggle to make it on their own, I help them out every chance I get. The other 2 consider themselves "home makers" neither has a highschool education, but they both have new iphones, spend alot of time out partying, and alot of time complaining about how hard things are, and how those evil men did this to them.

Guess which 2 I help whenever i can ? My kids have befriended the little kids, so instead of scrambling for a babysitter, sometimes we just bring the kids over here, sometimes we take them all out for dinner, sometimes we give them clothes that my kids have grown out of. The one mom just finished police sciences at college, and has accepted a job as cop in the city here, I think its safe to say that she will be fine, and I'd like to think i played a part in that, but know that she would have made it on her own.

By all means tho, you keep giving money to the homemaker because that seems to be working so well, as she buys the latest thing, and lets the kids go without, all the while crying about what that big bad man that she fell onto did to her.

So yeah, if disgraceful means choosing to help those who first try to help themselves you hit the nail right on the head.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Im sorry would it have been better if instead of leaches I called them the poor unfortunate women who fell onto a penis multiple times and ended up with a full soccer team to call their own, while the man attached to the penis pulled a disappearing act leaving me on the hook financially for the future inmate ?


What's disgraceful is your use of the broad brush in your original post, i.e., your characterization of EVERYONE who needs these safety nets as a "leech."

This is particularly odious in light of the fact that people who abuse the system represent only a tiny percentage of those who seek assistance.

But we get it: Like all conservatives, you give the finger to those less fortunate than yourself.

That's just who you are.

[Rohirrim]

Who you mean to attack, first you demonize.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/229037_458139960874541_1950824510_n.jpg

[chadta]

What's disgraceful is your use of the broad brush in your original post, i.e., your characterization of EVERYONE who needs these safety nets as a "leech."

This is particularly odious in light of the fact that people who abuse the system represent only a tiny percentage of those who seek assistance.

But we get it: Like all conservatives, you give the finger to those less fortunate than yourself.

That's just who you are.

Where did I say everyone that needs assistance is a leech ?

It would seem to me that if you wanted to look for the person using a broad brush you should look no farther than in the mirror.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Where did I say everyone that needs assistance is a leech ?

Right here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3640032&postcount=10

The implication is clear.

[chadta]

Right here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3640032&postcount=10

The implication is clear.

If you don't know the difference between a leech and a person in need of assistance that's not my problem.

I don't imply anything, I just say it. So please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If you don't know the difference between a leech and a person in need of assistance that's not my problem.

I don't imply anything, I just say it. So please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

You're the one who either doesn't know the difference or simply chose not to make that distinction.

[chadta]

You're the one who either doesn't know the difference or simply chose not to make that distinction.

WOW the I know you are but what am I defense

How can I compete with that

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

WOW the I know you are but what am I defense

How can I compete with that

Um, no.

That's not at all what I said, but I know comprehension isn't your forte.

In any event, you've already made it perfectly clear that you believe welfare recipients - not corporate greed and Wall Street confidence men - are what's bringing the U.S. economy down.

That makes you just another ditto monkey.

[Meck77]

Question for all of you to ponder....

How many hours have you spent on the omane and other messageboard forums/cruising the internet/watching tv etc over the last 10 years?

What would your financial picture look like if you spent all those hours working on your own personal wealth/financial plan?

FACT-You wouldn't be concerned about taking wealth from others because you yourself would probably be financially free/independent.

What if the other 300,000,000 + Million Americans did the same?

Reality........It's easier to expect a handout from the government.

[Rohirrim]

Question for all of you to ponder....

How many hours have you spent on the omane and other messageboard forums/cruising the internet/watching tv etc over the last 10 years?

What would you financial picture look like if you spent all those hours working on your own personal wealth/financial plan?

FACT-You wouldn't be concerned about taking wealth from others because you yourself would probably be financially free/independent.

And you?

[Meck77]

Well I have 15,000 posts since 2002. The amount of posts has to correlate to the amount of time spent surfing/reading/responding. I don't post on other boards. Surf a couple of news sites/sports sites for updates. There are days I spend about 30 minutes online and times I don't log in for days or even a week or more. I don't watch tv other than Broncos games/news and an occasional movie but that is rare.

8-10 hours of my day goes to the farm/real estate or other business ventures.

Financially independent at 37. Couldn't have done it sitting around worrying about distributing the wealth of others or racking up 50,000 posts here and what is probably numerous other sites for some.

Speaking of which. Time to irrigate. Later.

I will say there is real value to surfing on the mane though. Hell I've sold a bunch of houses to people of the mane and hosted/been to some great parties over the years. It's a time sucker though and nobody here will deny that. NOBODY.

[Rohirrim]

Well I have 15,000 posts since 2002. The amount of posts has to correlate to the amount of time spent surfing/reading/responding. I don't post on other boards. Surf a couple of news sites/sports sites for updates. There are days I spend about 30 minutes online and times I don't log in for days or even a week or more. I don't watch tv other than Broncos games/news and an occasional movie but that is rare.

8-10 hours of my day goes to the farm/real estate or other business ventures.

Financially independent at 37. Couldn't have done it sitting around worrying about distributing the wealth of others or racking up 50,000 posts here and what is probably numerous other sites for some.

You?

And I'm sure you worked your way up from nothing. Good for you.

I have two screens. One for work, one for play. The relaxation I get from the play improves my capacity to work.

[Mr.Meanie]

Question for all of you to ponder....

How many hours have you spent on the omane and other messageboard forums/cruising the internet/watching tv etc over the last 10 years?

What would your financial picture look like if you spent all those hours working on your own personal wealth/financial plan?

FACT-You wouldn't be concerned about taking wealth from others because you yourself would probably be financially free/independent.

What if the other 300,000,000 + Million Americans did the same?

Reality........It's easier to expect a handout from the government.

While I agree with you in some respects, I have to disagree on what it takes to build wealth. It certainly isn't time spent working. I have employees that work 80+ hours per week and barely scrape by. I've worked many long days and nights for almost nothing, sometimes for free, just trying to get a business off the ground. On the flip side, I've worked a few hours a day for 5 weeks on a commercial real estate deal, and made more in that one deal than I made the 4 years prior working full time. IMO creating wealth is not about how hard you work or how many hours you put it, it's about where you choose to put your time, and how developed your financial intelligence is.

[houghtam]

How about instead we talk about the other redistribution of wealth. You know, 30 or so years ago when we switched from demand side economics to supply side economics.

I'm just trying to get things back to the way they were before Reagan **** all over the country. ;D

[Meck77]

While I agree with you in some respects, I have to disagree on what it takes to build wealth. It certainly isn't time spent working. I have employees that work 80+ hours per week and barely scrape by. I've worked many long days and nights for almost nothing, sometimes for free, just trying to get a business off the ground. On the flip side, I've worked a few hours a day for 5 weeks on a commercial real estate deal, and made more in that one deal than I made the 4 years prior working full time. IMO creating wealth is not about how hard you work or how many hours you put it, it's about where you choose to put your time, and how developed your financial intelligence is.

Of course. While in high school I worked at a mail boxes etc for $3.35/hr. The owner taught me how to run the business which I did while he would be gone for a few hours at a time. I learned customer service skills, balancing a register, basic accounting etc. I could have stayed there for years and gotten a raise to $5.00/hr eventually $10.00 etc. But yes that would not build wealth.

It's not a matter of working harder and smarter. It's certainly a financial intelligence and working harder. You being a broker understand that some deals happen easily and quickly. Others could take years and even cost you money.

My point is millions of man hours are wasted on the internet/tv or whatever else vs actual time advancing a business idea, making a home business more efficient, or creating a new venture, or working at your job in a more efficient manner.

Hell 90% of the people here are probably posting on the clock at work yet we blame the government for all our economic woes. For crying out loud people are working in America. They are surfing on the mother ****ing internet talking about how they should have more money from the rich people!Hilarious!

Making money, having money, and building wealth are all different animals. Many of the "heavy hitting" brokers I knew are flat out broke now. Any fool can make money. Not every fool can keep it.

Some people think because they live in fancy house and have a nice car they are rich. Reality is they are probably 500,000 in debt and their actual net worth is a huge hole.

Redistribution of wealth? It's a natural cycle IMO. Greed does a fine job of redistributing it. When you can't pay the bank it will get redistributed.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And I'm sure you worked your way up from nothing. ....

Hilarious!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431000_517263211632528_650830215_n.jpg

[Meck77]

Yes Ro. I worked my way up from a cardboard box like you and LA.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yes Ro. I worked my way up from a cardboard box like you and LA.

...and then you woke up, remembered you were a trust fund baby, and heaved a big sigh of relief.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<big>http://www.bartcop.com/jesus-feed-poor.jpg</big>

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/small-elite.jpg

[Arkie]

"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
-Thomas Jefferson

[houghtam]

"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
-Thomas Jefferson

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
-Thomas Jefferson

Sure was a complex man, wasn't he? Hilarious!

Here's another:

“Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.”
-John Adams

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
-Thomas Jefferson

Sure was a complex man, wasn't he? Hilarious!

Here's another:

“Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.”
-John Adams

Nice!

I like the way you matched the font and everything. :D

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/185528_404573649601720_1175345393_n.jpg

[bpc]

Question for all of you to ponder....

How many hours have you spent on the omane and other messageboard forums/cruising the internet/watching tv etc over the last 10 years?

What would your financial picture look like if you spent all those hours working on your own personal wealth/financial plan?

FACT-You wouldn't be concerned about taking wealth from others because you yourself would probably be financially free/independent.

What if the other 300,000,000 + Million Americans did the same?

Reality........It's easier to expect a handout from the government.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner in our Miss Cleo look-alike contest.

Fixed.

Gotta chuckle at a grandiose, self-righteous trust fund baby like Meck77 pretending to know what people he only knows from an Internet discussion forum have accomplished in life.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526187_460128687342335_785211478_n.jpg

[Jetmeck]

Of course. While in high school I worked at a mail boxes etc for $3.35/hr. The owner taught me how to run the business which I did while he would be gone for a few hours at a time. I learned customer service skills, balancing a register, basic accounting etc. I could have stayed there for years and gotten a raise to $5.00/hr eventually $10.00 etc. But yes that would not build wealth.

It's not a matter of working harder and smarter. It's certainly a financial intelligence and working harder. You being a broker understand that some deals happen easily and quickly. Others could take years and even cost you money.

My point is millions of man hours are wasted on the internet/tv or whatever else vs actual time advancing a business idea, making a home business more efficient, or creating a new venture, or working at your job in a more efficient manner.

Hell 90% of the people here are probably posting on the clock at work yet we blame the government for all our economic woes. For crying out loud people are working in America. They are surfing on the mother ****ing internet talking about how they should have more money from the rich people!Hilarious!

Making money, having money, and building wealth are all different animals. Many of the "heavy hitting" brokers I knew are flat out broke now. Any fool can make money. Not every fool can keep it.

Some people think because they live in fancy house and have a nice car they are rich. Reality is they are probably 500,000 in debt and their actual net worth is a huge hole.

Redistribution of wealth? It's a natural cycle IMO. Greed does a fine job of redistributing it. When you can't pay the bank it will get redistributed.


just who are you ? the all seeing, all knowing self righteous ..........you fill in the blank and go **** your self..............

[Jetmeck]

Question for all of you to ponder....

How many hours have you spent on the omane and other messageboard forums/cruising the internet/watching tv etc over the last 10 years?

What would your financial picture look like if you spent all those hours working on your own personal wealth/financial plan?

FACT-You wouldn't be concerned about taking wealth from others because you yourself would probably be financially free/independent.

What if the other 300,000,000 + Million Americans did the same?

Reality........It's easier to expect a handout from the government.

righteous man you got everything all figured out.......now go away and let the people in the real world figure this out.............

or guess I could say thank you Mr. Romney,,,,,,,


sucks being you and realizing your indignant self righteous ASS is at the mercy of the majority of us who will force rich people to pay a reasonable fair share of taxes as under CLINTON.........

[Meck77]

Maybe not all figured out but figured out enough. I'll keep working hard though. Someone has to pay some taxes.

Or should I just cut you a check directly? How about some Broncos season tickets while I'm at it?

Better yet how about anyone with an education and a good job should just be allowed to get robbed at the bank on Fridays. Why waste time boys. Just cut to the chase. Time to straight up gank some cash from the rich folk.

Your solution is take take take. Mine is create jobs which I do every day.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Maybe not all figured out but figured out enough. I'll keep working hard though. Someone has to pay some taxes.

Just as long as it's not the oligarchs and plutocrats whose interests are your top priority, right?



Or should I just cut you a check directly? How about some Broncos season tickets while I'm at it?

Nah.

Why don't you just make that check out to your favorite oil company, defense contractor, or hedge fund?

That way, your actions will be consistent with the policies you support.

Better yet how about anyone with an education and a good job should just be allowed to get robbed at the bank on Fridays. Why waste time boys. Just cut to the chase. Time to straight up gank some cash from the rich folk.

L0L @ you trying to equate tax fairness with robbery. :D

But I guess "fortunate sons" like you have been doing that since the dawn of time, eh?

Your solution is take take take. Mine is create jobs which I do every day.

Once again, you have it bass-ackwards.

The little people you hold in such obvious contempt have been working their asses off for the past thirty years while watching their standard of living steadily decline.

Meanwhile, trust fund babies and self-entitled silver spooners like you have been voting for policies that have created the largest upward redistribution of wealth since the robber baron era.

[Garcia Bronco]

People on public assistance commit majority of tax refund fraud, police say

TAMPA — Last summer, the state sent a notice to a felon's apartment, reminding Jerry Myea Lee that his food stamps would dry up if he didn't reapply.

The form letter spit out other offers. Did he need child support? A telephone discount? How about an Earned Income Tax Credit?

Lee, then 36, kept the paper.

As a teen, he had grown 10 inches eating state-paid food in prison. Each time he got in trouble and pleaded poverty — robbery, then drugs and guns — the public paid for his lawyers. His state and federal incarcerations cost taxpayers almost $300,000.

He was a free man on July 6, 2011, cruising around Tampa in a rented Dodge Charger, when, during a traffic stop, a police dog got a whiff of weed.

In a bag behind the driver's seat, officers found Lee's food stamps letter — and $30,980 in cash. Eleven days later, he was caught in Orlando with a U.S. Treasury check made out to someone else.

Tampa police suspect his cash had roots in tax refund fraud, which has drained billions of dollars from the U.S. Treasury.

If so, it came from the same beleaguered source that has paid to feed, house and defend Lee all these years. You.

• • •

Tampa police estimate that 80 to 90 percent of the tax refund fraud they encounter is committed by people on public assistance.

"The people who are benefiting most from our taxes are the ones doing it," said police spokeswoman Andrea Davis.

Tampa led the nation in refund fraud last year, with thieves duping the IRS out of $468 million. That's according to a recent analysis by a federal watchdog agency, which put the national loss at $5.2 billion. The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration said it detected characteristics of refund fraud in 88,724 paid Tampa returns.

No one can say with certainty who took all the money.

But police know where they find the evidence.

Routinely, they see signs of tax fraud commingled with indicators of food assistance, rent assistance, Medicaid or Supplemental Security Income disability checks.

Little hard data exists on a crime only recently entering the public consciousness. But the estimate of 80 to 90 percent is the consensus of a Tampa police attorney and three detectives who specialize in the cases, including Sal Augeri, who testified about fraud in March before a U.S. Senate subcommittee.

Sheriff's deputies, too, have witnessed an overlap.

"We do believe that a large number of people committing this crime are on public assistance," said Hillsborough sheriff's Cpl. Bruce Crumpler.

Some, like Shawntrece Sims, triple-dip. Sims, 32, gained notoriety by using tax money for a fertility procedure. An early starter, she filed fake tax returns as far back as 2009, she admitted in a plea deal. Authorities believe she collected $672,887.

For much of 2009, she also drew a monthly $660 housing subsidy, along with a $1,348 SSI disability check.

In December, after she pleaded guilty to tax and mail fraud, a federal judge sent her to prison for nine years. She's at Waseca Correctional Institution in Minnesota.

Cost to taxpayers: $73.57 a day.

• • •

More than 10,000 people remain on a waiting list for federally subsidized housing in Hills*borough County.

Not LaSandra Gamble, 27-year-old mother of five.

Last summer, between housing, utilities and food stamps, she drew benefits of $2,363 a month, Tampa Housing Authority files show.

Yet, in August 2011, she put down $9,000 on a black 2006 Lexus GS430, police said. Three days later, they said, she put down another $9,000, this time on a red 2007 Lexus ES 350. Combined, the monthly payments were nearly $2,000.

The car dealer told police that Gamble acted as if she had a lot of money and said she needed the second Lexus because her "boyfriend" was jealous, police attorney Laurie Woodham said.

Gamble, in an interview, said police have it wrong. She said she got the cars because she was involved with the car dealer.

"I didn't have to put nothing down," she said. "We were in a relationship."

Legally, she was in a relationship with her husband, 33-year-old Angelo Juan Pedrosa, whom she had married a year earlier.

Police got involved Oct. 8, when they stopped Pedrosa driving the black Lexus. Pedrosa is a convicted cocaine dealer. Along with marijuana residue, the officers reported finding $6,000 and a dozen debit cards in other people's names.

Reloadable debit cards, sold online, carry Visa or MasterCard logos. Some people use them to shop on the Internet, control spending or get around poor credit. Tax thieves use them to collect refunds from the IRS.

Pedrosa told police the money was his and he found the debit cards at a gas station. Gamble said the money was hers, that it came from a $7,982 child support payment.

Pedrosa could not be reached for comment. Gamble said they are no longer together. She also said she knows nothing about tax fraud.

"There's more to life than being materialistic," she said. "My children, bettering my children. To learn everything you can learn, and get it while it's free."

Police seized the cash.

And they did they what usually do in such cases.

They sent a report to the IRS.

• • •

James Robnett has no control over the issuance of illegal refunds.

He tries to extract justice afterward, as special agent in charge of the Tampa-based IRS-Criminal Investigation Division, where he started work in June.

"Our mission is to protect the Treasury as best we can," he said.

But it takes time to gather the evidence required to successfully prosecute a tax crime, he said.

Operation Rainmaker, a multi-agency sting last year, pointed the finger at a long list of suspects, but few have been federally charged.

Sims' plea deal was a significant victory, and the IRS played a big role in that investigation. This summer, the federal government also charged Danielle Denson, alleging the exotic dancer collected $1.6 million in returns, spending proceeds on a Mercedes-Benz, plastic surgery and a $300 thong from Gucci. She awaits trial or a plea deal.

Other cases crawl through the bureaucracy, the custom paint jobs of seized cars baking in an impound lot near the city incinerator.

The investigators are Tampa-based, from an array of agencies, but IRS criminal investigators can't refer a case directly to the U.S. Attorney's Office without approval from Justice Department attorneys in Washington.

"Our cases are financially complex," said Robnett, who has an accounting degree and more than 20 years of IRS law enforcement experience.

He said the process is being streamlined and people in Tampa should see results in the coming months.

• • •

The last time the government checked, Americans quietly cheated the Treasury out of $385 billion a year — an amount (called the "tax gap") six times greater than the net worth of Bill Gates.

Most do it by hiding earnings or not filing returns.

Refund thieves take the opposite approach. Using stolen Social Security numbers, they report imaginary earnings and then claim they are owed money.

The IRS may not notice until the real taxpayer tries to file — or not at all, if the victim had no filing requirement.

Mary Vincenzi, an 83-year-old Italian immigrant, expected no refund. Her working years, as an accounts clerk for Sears in New York, were behind her.

In truth, she had avoided tax matters, shell-shocked by the back-to-back deaths of her brother, husband and son.

Last summer, a letter came to her Riverview home. The IRS was rejecting her 2010 return.

Return?

"I didn't even do my income taxes," she said.

Someone had used her name, date of birth and Social Security number to register a debit card and file for a refund.

"They get all the information they want with these stupid computers," Vincenzi said. "They should destroy them all."

The card issued in Vincenzi's name was registered to a house 7 miles away from her. It was sent to Ivy Flower Loop in Riverview, across from a citrus grove near Interstate 75.

At least 18 debit cards or Walmart money cards were registered to that address from February to May 2011, Tampa police said.

Some were used to collect tax refunds. The IRS sent at least $26,541 to the home, including additional payment by check, police said.

That's not the only federal money that went to the house on Ivy Flower Loop.

The woman who lives there, Michelle Rena Haywood, is a 25-year-old mother of three.

State records show she has never been arrested in Florida.

Last year, the public subsidized her rent by $1,040 a month and provided $526 in monthly food assistance, housing records show. Her current rent subsidy is $452.

Federal grants for $6,057 helped send Haywood to Hills*borough Community College, where she enrolled in college prep reading, first aid, pre-algebra, algebra and sociology.

The Tampa Bay Times asked her about allegations of tax activity at her house.

"I don't really wish to talk about that," she said. "I don't want to relive that chaos I had to go through. I don't even know how to work a computer.

"I just had moved into the house, actually. It was around the time when this all went down. I don't know what was going on before I got there. Today I get people's mail that don't live there."

The Housing Authority started paying rent in her name in December 2010.

Tampa police offer more to the story.

They became interested in Haywood after discovering her name on the title of a 2010 Camaro seized during Operation Rainmaker.

It was one of two cars Haywood bought within 17 days last year, police learned.

She put $8,000 down on the Camaro on April 2, 2011, police attorney Woodham said. By month's end, someone had paid another $16,000.

Police believe the car was used by Marterrence Q. Holloway, a central figure in Operation Rainmaker. Police characterized Holloway as the host of a party where people gathered to file fraudulent returns.

Holloway remains under federal investigation.

The car, police say, was also used by Terence A. Palmer, 27, the father of Haywood's first child.

The two men have each been arrested more than 30 times, and they've each served two terms in state prison for crimes that included cocaine possession and selling cannabis.

The day before Haywood bought the Camaro, police found Palmer in another car with two TurboTax debit cards and $5,700, the police attorney said.

Haywood declined to discuss the automobile purchases.

She said she doesn't know Holloway. She declined to say when she last had contact with Palmer.

"I don't know if she got mixed up with the wrong person," Woodham said. "Is he using her address? I don't know. All the withdrawals are from banks and Publix stores by her house."

• • •

When Jerome Ryans hears about Haywood and Gamble, his agency's clients, he can't help but think of mothers who have waited years for a subsidy.

He is president and CEO of the Tampa Housing Authority, which oversees public housing complexes and distributes federal vouchers.

He learned about the women's car purchases from a Tampa Bay Times reporter and said the agency would look into them.

"If any of that is true," he said, "they don't need to be on our program."

But Ryans doesn't believe that people on public assistance are committing 80 to 90 percent of Tampa's tax fraud.

Maybe others just aren't getting caught, he suggested.

Tampa police Chief Jane Castor said that's entirely possible.

"There are individuals that are flying under the radar and aren't being detected, no doubt," she said.

The majority of people on public assistance obey the laws, she said, but criminals will take advantage of any system that lends itself to exploitation.

Sgt. Kenny Norris, 47, who patrols east Tampa, said the gold and cars just draw more attention in low-income neighborhoods.

By design, apparently.

"They're putting it right in our faces," said Detective Augeri, who describes suspected tax thieves trying to one-up each other in a public show of possessions.

The public pays for custom Camaros with notice-me paint jobs, high-end SUVs, big TVs, gold teeth, cosmetic surgery, Gucci handbags, cocaine, cruises and gambling.

On YouTube, amateur rap videos immortalize women with newfound money. One opens with a "Welcome to Tampa, City of Champions" sign; another shows a scene outside King's Meat Market and a man with a mouth full of cash.

If fraud begets rap videos, the reverse may also be true.

As a mentor to kids, Sgt. Norris preaches the wisdom of working hard and avoiding trouble, but they're bombarded by images of musicians driving $80,000 cars.

"These guys perpetuate the idea that gold and nice cars are what life is all about," he said.

He doesn't believe the spending sprees satisfy the hunger that drives the crime. People only wind up wanting more.

"They're seeking and searching for something, I guess, a legitimate feeling inside they won't ever find," he said. "It will never make them feel good no matter what they purchase because they'll always be ducking and hiding, trying to outrun the law."

Or outrun each other.

Increasingly, police get called to scenes of tax-fraud-related burglaries and robberies, as thieves wrestle over spoils.

Local cops just wish the IRS would close the door.

The agency — often constrained by Congress, denied resources and encouraged to keep filers happy — reports great strides, with $6.5 billion in fraudulent returns stopped last year.

But the report from the IRS watchdog said the Treasury could still lose $21 billion to fraudulent tax refunds over the next five years.

"You don't have to clean up the blood if you stop the bleeding," police attorney Woodham said.

• • •

Lee, the man found with the food stamps letter and $30,980, was sent back to federal prison, but not on tax fraud charges.

He violated terms of his probation by getting caught with cannabis, associating with a felon and failing to report encounters with police. He's scheduled to be released Aug. 31.

He did not respond to a letter from the Times that described how he would be characterized in this story. A prison official said Lee received the letter but declined an interview.

He faces a state court drug charge when he gets out and lingering questions about the source of his cash, still in a police pending fund.

In the Orlando case, police arrested Lee and a Tampa woman at an Amscot, alleging that he supplied her a fake ID and the $7,989 Treasury check, one of four the IRS sent to addresses he used.

Waiting in the car, police also found Lee's girlfriend, Lucille Gamble, 48, kin to the Gamble who bought two Lexuses. Three days after she got back from Orlando, Lucille Gamble, who was not charged, closed on the purchase of her first house, records show. Like most people, she took out a bank loan.

Lee, too, took important steps after his Orlando arrest.

He declared himself indigent, qualifying again for public defenders. He reapplied for food stamps. And, early this year, he filed a motion in Hillsborough Circuit Court. He wants police to give back the $30,980.

Times news researcher John Martin contributed to this report. Patty Ryan can be reached at pryan@tampabay.com or (813) 226-3382.



http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...ce-say/1246564

[Meck77]

sucks being you .

I roll with whoever is president. The system is all too predictable.

Well you got Obama looking out for you. How's that working for you? Obama is too busy pandering to wall street and throwing a bone or two out to the working joe.

It sounds like you are ****ed whether obama or romney wins. You might consider spending some time with further education rather than b****ing to a bunch of Broncos fans about how unfair the world is. Either that or call your liberal senator who's living large who doesn't really care about your personal situation either.

[Garcia Bronco]

I roll with whoever is president. The system is all too predictable.

Well you got Obama looking out for you. How's that working for you? Obama is too busy pandering to wall street and throwing a bone or two out to the working joe.

It sounds like you are ****ed whether obama or romney wins. You might consider spending some time with further education rather than b****ing to a bunch of Broncos fans about how unfair the world is. Either that or call your liberal senator who's living large who doesn't really care about your personal situation either.

Preach.

[Rohirrim]

Good old Meck. After 15,000 plus posts, still bringing the pomposity.

[Garcia Bronco]

Good old Meck. After 15,000 plus posts, still bringing the pomposity.

That's the response from some one who was made to feel inferior from the post. You don't have to feel that way.

[Arkie]

Just as long as it's not the oligarchs and plutocrats whose interests are your top priority, right?


Who funds the government? The top 10% incomes pay 70% of the taxes. It's a highly progressive system. Overall taxes may be lower than they were in 1980, but the system is actually more progressive today than it was then.

[Rohirrim]

That's the response from some one who was made to feel inferior from the post. You don't have to feel that way.

One man being a pompous ass does not make the rest of mankind inferior. ;D

[TonyR]

Who funds the government? The top 10% incomes pay 70% of the taxes. It's a highly progressive system. Overall taxes may be lower than they were in 1980, but the system is actually more progressive today than it was then.

You should give this a read. From a conservative writer at a conservative site/publication.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/283265/freeloader-myth-ramesh-ponnuru?pg=3

[Fedaykin]

Who funds the government? The top 10% incomes pay 70% of the taxes. It's a highly progressive system. Overall taxes may be lower than they were in 1980, but the system is actually more progressive today than it was then.

Once again, you're only taking in to account income taxes and excluding payroll taxes.

And here some other numbers to chew on that will help you understand what's actually going on:

Shares of pre-tax income, by quintile:

1980:

Q1: 5.8%
Q2: 11.1%
Q3: 15.8%
Q4: 22%
Q5: 45.5%
Top10%: 30.5%
Top 5%: 20.7%
Top 1%: 9.3%

2007:

Q1: 4%
Q2: 8.4%
Q3: 13.1%
Q4: 19.3%
Q5: 55.9%
Top10%: 42%
Top 5%: 32.3%
Top 1%: 19.4%

% Change of share:
Q1: -31%
Q2: -25%
Q3: -17%
Q4: -16%
Q5: +23%
Top10%: +38%
Top 5%: +56%
Top 1%: +108%

For the numerically and mathematically impaired, the above simple means: The upper incomes have had *huge* increases in the share of the wealth they receive, while the lower incomes have had correspondingly huge decreases in the share of wealth they receive. Put another way, the redistribution of wealth has skyrocketed UP, not down. This, of course, is the intended effect of "trickle down" economics, which is "working as intended".

This is the vast bulk of the reason the upper 10% pays more of the total than in 1980. They have a lot more of the income than they did in 1980.

data from CBO: http://www.cbo.gov/publication/42870

[Garcia Bronco]

For the numerically and mathematically impaired, the above simple means: The upper incomes have had *huge* increases in the share of the wealth they receive, while...

You mean EARNED.

[Fedaykin]

That's the response from some one who was made to feel inferior from the post. You don't have to feel that way.

Weak **** there holmes.

[Fedaykin]

You mean EARNED.

No, I mean received. What people receive doesn't necessarily correspond to what the actual value of their input is. Do you really think Tim Cook provides $350 million dollars worth of work a year but the people who actually design Apple products only provide ~$80k of worth?

[Garcia Bronco]

No, I mean received. What people receive doesn't necessarily correspond to what the actual value of their input is. Do you really think Tim Cook provides $350 million dollars worth of work a year but the people who actually design Apple products only provide ~$80k of worth?

I don't know Tim Cook and I am in no position to comment otherwise, but the idea that people who take risks with their own money "receive" money and didn't earn is why people have a skewed view of policy. In fact the only reason someone would say what you are saying is if they are jealous.

[Fedaykin]

I don't know Tim Cook and I am in no position to comment otherwise, but the idea that people who take risks with their own money "receive" money and didn't earn is why people have a skewed view of policy. In fact the only reason someone would say what you are saying is if they are jealous.

Nice way to avoid addressing what I'm saying.

It's very simple. In a truly fair system, people would receive the amount of wealth that they had earned. That's simply not the case in our society, and never will be the case. All we can do is work toward that unattainable goal as best we can.

I think we both agree that people should receive what they earn, so with that in mind, what's your response to this:

For 30 years worker productivity in the U.S. has only increased, yet in the same time period real wages have decreased. In that same time period, the upper 1% has more than doubled its take while at the same time leading us to the brink of financial collapse.

[Garcia Bronco]

Nice way to avoid addressing what I'm saying.

It's very simple. In a truly fair system, people would receive the amount of wealth that they had earned. That's simply not the case in our society, and never will be the case. All we can do is work toward that unattainable goal as best we can.

I think we both agree that people should receive what they earn, so with that in mind, what's your response to this:

For 30 years worker productivity in the U.S. has only increased, yet in the same time period real wages have decreased. In that same time period, the upper 1% has more than doubled its take while at the same time leading us to the brink of financial collapse.

I question that our productivity has actually increased for the actualy work required. In fact I would say to come up with an accurate number in that regard is near impossible. But let's say that is true, it just speaks volumes about the education system, owned by the public, and it's ability to train Americans toward financial literacy. Some people get it, others do not. It speaks volumes to the level of technology that has entered our daily lives and the workplace.

I earn 4 times what my dad did at the same age, and what I have to do to earn versus what he had to do...isn't even in the same league.

I used to employ 7 people to manage a system at work. I had all seven replaced with automation. The script took 30 days to write. I saved my company 500k in overhead for the next 5 years per year. That's 2.5 million in 30 days. The kicker is that I'll be supporting them with my tax dollars and so will you because these people did not cultivate their skill set. They won't be finding jobs in the same field and it's technology that has replaced them.

Next up is the autoworker. While being replaced by machines isn't new to them...it'll be happening more and more.

[Fedaykin]

I question that our productivity has actually increased for the actualy work required. In fact I would say to come up with an accurate number in that regard is near impossible.


Productivity is measured pretty simple. How many widget produced or services rendered in a particular time period. Just because you don't like the implications doesn't mean the measurements are invalid.


But let's say that is true, it just speaks volumes about the education system, owned by the public, and it's ability to train Americans toward financial literacy. Some people get it, others do not. It speaks volumes to the level of technology that has entered our daily lives and the workplace.


Nice red herring. At the end of the day. The same amount of work is rewarded with less pay than it was 30 years ago.


I earn 4 times what my dad did at the same age, and what I have to do to earn versus what he had to do...isn't even in the same league.


You mistake "hard work" and "value contribution". It guys don't work as "hard" as, say, construction workers, but that doesn't mean we provide less value.


I used to employ 7 people to manage a system at work. I had all seven replaced with automation. The script took 30 days to write. I saved my company 500k in overhead for the next 5 years per year. That's 2.5 million in 30 days. The kicker is that I'll be supporting them with my tax dollars and so will you because these people did not cultivate their skill set. They won't be finding jobs in the same field and it's technology that has replaced them.


You saved your employer 2.5 million. Your productivity skyrocketed. Awesome. Did he cut you a check for a significant portion of that or in some other way significantly financially reward you?

[Garcia Bronco]

Productivity is measured pretty simple. How many widget produced or services rendered in a particular time period. Just because you don't like the implications doesn't mean the measurements are invalid.



Nice red herring. At the end of the day. The same amount of work is rewarded with less pay than it was 30 years ago.



You mistake "hard work" and "value contribution". It guys don't work as "hard" as, say, construction workers, but that doesn't mean we provide less value.



You saved your employer 2.5 million. Your productivity skyrocketed. Awesome. Did he cut you a check for a significant portion of that or in some other way significantly financially reward you?

The measurements are invalid because we can't even begin to quantify that nor repeatedly measure it in the same way because of the diverse nation of our physical world.

More than 2.5 million when you include interest. I am well taken care of in regards of compensation and I agreed to do the work at a particular rate. I don't expect 30 percent of 2.5 million because I agreed to do it up front for a particular rate...which would make most people puke. I still own the code. :)

[Fedaykin]

The measurements are invalid because we can't even begin to quantify that nor repeatedly measure it in the same way because of the diverse nation of our physical world.

Sorry, that's BS. You have two very measurable numbers: Labor Hours and Output values (widgets, services). I agree on an individual level it's very difficult to measure. On a macro level? Not a problem.


More than 2.5 million when you include interest. I am well taken care of in regards of compensation and I agreed to do the work at a particular rate. I don't expect 30 percent of 2.5 million because I agreed to do it up front for a particular rate...which would make most people puke. I still own the code. :)

So, you're providing more value (i.e. more productivity) and someone else (who has provided no new value) is getting more money. You put 2.5m into someone else's pocket and got no benefit. You earned more money, but received none. They didn't earn more money, but did receive more.

In other words, exactly what I'm saying. Earning an receiving wealth do not always correlate.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Who funds the government? The top 10% incomes pay 70% of the taxes.

Once again, you fail to distinguish between nominal and effective tax rates.

After taking advantage of all the loopholes available to them, most wealthy individuals and corporations pay little or no taxes.

Even if your "70%" figure were true, it's the amount that the super-rich pay as a percentage of their income that matters.


It's a highly progressive system. Overall taxes may be lower than they were in 1980, but the system is actually more progressive today than it was then.

Interesting that you use the beginning of the Reagan Revolution as your reference point. Go back a little further, i.e., to Nixon or Eisenhower, to see what a real progressive tax system looks like.

[Jetmeck]

I have lived this scenario being argued. In 03 as an employee of American Airlines we gave up 18.5% in pay and benefits only to immediately find out about CEO and other board members getting bonuses.

Since then management has been given multiple bonuses while we sit on a concessionary contract. Been in negotations for years with these assholes and they only want to take away pension, healthcare, vacation, sick leave and many work rule changes.

Always having "leaf on a tree" meetings as in we are all in this together.............what a joke.

CEO pay has risen extensively since 80's and in some cases 400--500 times the workers pay ? How do you justify its always the workers fault ?

[Jetmeck]

The measurements are invalid because we can't even begin to quantify that nor repeatedly measure it in the same way because of the diverse nation of our physical world.

More than 2.5 million when you include interest. I am well taken care of in regards of compensation and I agreed to do the work at a particular rate. I don't expect 30 percent of 2.5 million because I agreed to do it up front for a particular rate...which would make most people puke. I still own the code. :)

So u wrote the code/software and yet you are taking responsibilty for everyhting ?

I see and you are so proud of getting rid of five jobs............ok well it may be the future but you don't have be so damn proud of getting rid of someone's livelihood.

[Paladin]

Um, no.

That's not at all what I said, but I know comprehension isn't your forte.

In any event, you've already made it perfectly clear that you believe welfare recipients - not corporate greed and Wall Street confidence men - are what's bringing the U.S. economy down.

That makes you just another ditto monkey.

LABF, why are you arguing with a Canadian about this? Everybody knows that Candaians are like brain-dead Australians with the nuts off.

[Mecklomaniac]

I see and you are so proud of getting rid of five jobs............ok well it may be the future but you don't have be so damn proud of getting rid of someone's livelihood.


It's called progress. Don't need people to make camera film, buggy whips, or eight track tapes. W. Edwards Deming is considered a Quality Control Guru, Lean Mfg proponent and shares a lot of credit for Japanese mfg moving from building junk to quality after WWII. Deming once said, "Learning is not compulsory, neither is survival". It is up to you to insure that you are always improving yourself and staying relevant. Not my fault if you choose to stay stagnant and not evolve, your extinction is your own fault.

That said a good businessman while always looking to increase productivity, also looks to move employees no longer needed in one area, to a new project and expand the business.

Mfg has made huge gains in productivity, doing more with less. Government on the other hand excels at doing less with more.

[Garcia Bronco]

So u wrote the code/software and yet you are taking responsibilty for everyhting ?

I see and you are so proud of getting rid of five jobs............ok well it may be the future but you don't have be so damn proud of getting rid of someone's livelihood.

We spent 2 years trying to train them to do different things and they refused to take on new responsibilty and learn new tasks. Frustrated, we cut our losses. Its actually rather unfortunate. They got a years pay though. Plus they can get UE. One guy went ahead and retired.

[Fedaykin]

So u wrote the code/software and yet you are taking responsibilty for everyhting ?

I see and you are so proud of getting rid of five jobs............ok well it may be the future but you don't have be so damn proud of getting rid of someone's livelihood.

You know, I disagree a lot with GB but he's got nothing to be ashamed of by doing that. It's the future. As a fellow software engineer/architect I've done similar things to what GB describes (though once I was my own collateral damage, ha!)

Computer are the future (and present). That means more and more automation. That means if you want marketable skills, you gotta get into the biz of making the stuff that automates things - either as the maker or somehow supporting those things.

If you're a doing anything that will soon be done by computer's and/or robots, ya better make your bank now or start learning new skills. There's currently a *huge* demand for good software people (both he technical folks and other folks like LP, training, support, project managers, etc.). It generally takes me 2-3 months to find a decent candidate when I bring in new staff. Even during the worst of the Great Recession it was difficult to find a good engineer on the market. Plenty of script kiddies, but I have no interest in them.

[Breaker]

There's 10s of millions of dollars going from the Far Right to places like NBC News in a failed effort to buy this election. As a lib, I'm against money in politics, but I appreciate karma. God Bless this country!

Guess you shouldnt be a Dem then

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/399592_462327267122477_59535881_n.jpg

[Arkie]

Tax revenue has remained the same...

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/marginal%20rate%20revenue%20graph.png



Despite the fact that the % the rich pay in income taxes keeps increasing...
(the top 20% have never covered 2/3 of the tax base)

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/tax%20graph2.png