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View Full Version : Is Curtis Martin really better than TD ?


Jetmeck
08-04-2012, 09:00 PM
Longevity is the only thing he had on TD.............and that shouldn't be the difference between getting in the hall. IF a guy just has a couple of great years and then gets lazy and fades away so be it but dammit you can't help it when your numb nutz qb throws a int and you own offensive lineman blows your knee out trying to tackle the guy.

IF Martin got in TD should too................had it not been for injury TD would have been the greatest.

maven
08-04-2012, 09:02 PM
I cannot remember anything he did amazing.

Archer81
08-04-2012, 09:05 PM
No.


:Broncos:

Jetmeck
08-04-2012, 09:14 PM
I cannot remember anything he did amazing.

steady but I do not remeber anyone being scared of him

houghtam
08-04-2012, 09:23 PM
Same.

I don't think TD belongs in the Hall, but...if he doesn't...Curtis Martin DEFINITELY doesn't.

Martin = Emmitt Smith - winning Super Bowls

SoCalBronco
08-04-2012, 09:27 PM
Just a bunch of decent years. Hall of good worthy....not hall of very good and sure as hell not hof. Weak selection. Td was far superior

DBroncos4life
08-04-2012, 09:28 PM
The 4th all time rusher is HOF worthy.

NFLBRONCO
08-04-2012, 09:41 PM
Same.

I don't think TD belongs in the Hall, but...if he doesn't...Curtis Martin DEFINITELY doesn't.

Martin = Emmitt Smith - winning Super Bowls


I think the HOF is screwed up honestly. Yes TD had a short career but, he flat out dominated and struck fear in everyone during that time to me that IS HOF worthy. If TD played in a bigger market he'd be a shoe in for HOF.

Bacchus
08-04-2012, 09:52 PM
I would say there was never a year before TD's injury he was better than TD. They were both rookies and TD was leading in rushing yards, dominating really, then TD had to miss the last three games due to a shoulder injury, I believe. Martin ended up getting the rookie of the year.

NO WAY shoudl Martin or Bettis be in there ahead of Daivs.

Doggcow
08-04-2012, 09:53 PM
Of course. He played in New York right?

Blueflame
08-04-2012, 09:57 PM
Question: In any year of his playing career, was Curtis Martin ever named league MVP? Or Super Bowl MVP? TD was.

houghtam
08-04-2012, 09:58 PM
I think the HOF is screwed up honestly. Yes TD had a short career but, he flat out dominated and struck fear in everyone during that time to me that IS HOF worthy. If TD played in a bigger market he'd be a shoe in for HOF.

Dante Hall struck fear in people every time he touched the ball for 3 or 4 years.

The Hall should have about 1/4 of the members it currently has.

Bettis doesn't deserve it. Emmitt doesn't deserve it. Martin doesn't deserve it. Davis doesn't deserve it.

Bacchus
08-04-2012, 09:59 PM
Question: In any year of his playing career, was Curtis Martin ever named league MVP? Or Super Bowl MVP? TD was.

Martin was a guy that averaged 4.2 YPC and never accomplised anything besides staying injury free.

Blueflame
08-04-2012, 10:08 PM
Martin was a guy that averaged 4.2 YPC and never accomplised anything besides staying injury free.

Prior to his ACL tear in '99, TD was the most-feared/respected RB in the NFL.

Bacchus
08-04-2012, 10:09 PM
Prior to his ACL tear in '99, TD was the most-feared/respected RB in the NFL.

After Barry Sanders He was. If was not for Sanders Davis would have led the NFL in rushing 3 times.

NFLBRONCO
08-04-2012, 10:14 PM
Prior to his ACL tear in '99, TD was the most-feared/respected RB in the NFL.

This

He should be HOF player short career or not. I bet alot of RB's would have died to do what TD did in their careers.

Jason in LA
08-04-2012, 10:22 PM
Martin was very good for a really long time, but never great. TD was great. As great as any other running back ever. It was for a short period of time, but at the height of his career he was as great as anybody.

Jason in LA
08-04-2012, 10:26 PM
After Barry Sanders He was. If was not for Sanders Davis would have led the NFL in rushing 3 times.

Sanders was probably more feared, but TD was more effective. TD's style was better for winning. Sanders could have a few runs that were the greatest ever, but it didn't always lead to points, and it didn't always lead to wins. His style was beatable, TD's wasn't.

BroncoLifer
08-04-2012, 10:32 PM
Dante Hall struck fear in people every time he touched the ball for 3 or 4 years.

The Hall should have about 1/4 of the members it currently has.

Bettis doesn't deserve it. Emmitt doesn't deserve it. Martin doesn't deserve it. Davis doesn't deserve it.

This. Guys like Martin getting in just devalues the HOF. And it's only going to get worse with the mandatory minimum of five new members each year.

Cito Pelon
08-04-2012, 10:36 PM
The 4th all time rusher is HOF worthy.

Yup.

KCStud
08-04-2012, 10:42 PM
Curtis Martin doesn't deserve to be in the HOF and neither does Terrell Davis.

The HOF is for the best of the best, not really good players.

Hell Priest Holmes was a really good player for a handful of years too, but no way he's a HOF.

Cito Pelon
08-04-2012, 10:49 PM
This. Guys like Martin getting in just devalues the HOF. And it's only going to get worse with the mandatory minimum of five new members each year.

Wait a sec.

Martin played 11 years, had 17,430 all purpose yards, 100 total TD's, 14,101 yds rushing, 90 TD's rushing, played 166 games out of 168 possible and he DEVALUES the HOF?????

Jesus ****ing lord, where do we get people like you from?

houghtam
08-04-2012, 10:53 PM
Wait a sec.

Martin played 11 years, had 17,430 all purpose yards, 100 total TD's, 14,101 yds rushing, 90 TD's rushing, played 166 games out of 168 possible and he DEVALUES the HOF?????

Jesus ****ing lord, where do we get people like you from?

Well if 1280 yards and 8 TDs per year really does it for you, then sure. Put Martin in the Hall.

???

Cito Pelon
08-04-2012, 10:56 PM
Martin was a guy that averaged 4.2 YPC and never accomplised anything besides staying injury free.

What? Since when does 17,430 yards from scrimmage and 100 total TD's amount to "never accomplished anything"? There's some dumb people on this board, and you're right up there.

Blueflame
08-04-2012, 11:06 PM
Curtis Martin doesn't deserve to be in the HOF and neither does Terrell Davis.

The HOF is for the best of the best, not really good players.

Hell Priest Holmes was a really good player for a handful of years too, but no way he's a HOF.

If TD doesn't deserve to be in the HOF then neither does Gale Sayers.

Was Holmes league MVP? (we already know he wasn't SB MVP 'cause he would have been in diapers the last time KC was in the SB).

On edit: no, Holmes wasn't in diapers the last time KC was in the SB; he hadn't been born yet.

Bacchus
08-04-2012, 11:12 PM
What? Since when does 17,430 yards from scrimmage and 100 total TD's amount to "never accomplished anything"? There's some dumb people on this board, and you're right up there.

Ok smart guy what has he done? Tell me.

TD led the NFL in rushing, went to two Superbowls and was SB MVP wemnt over 2,000 yards in a season. What has Martin done??

He went to one SB and lost.

His 17,000 yards are the quietest most non relevant 17,000 yards you'll ever see.

houghtam
08-04-2012, 11:14 PM
If TD doesn't deserve to be in the HOF then neither does Gale Sayers.

Was Holmes league MVP? (we already know he wasn't SB MVP 'cause he would have been in diapers the last time KC was in the SB).

The argument for Sayers has been that he changed the KR game before anyone else. I don't think either Sayers or Davis deserve to be in the HOF, but Sayers did have 8 return TDs in just over 4 seasons before that was a "thing".

Bronco Yoda
08-04-2012, 11:15 PM
Sanders was probably more feared, but TD was more effective. TD's style was better for winning. Sanders could have a few runs that were the greatest ever, but it didn't always lead to points, and it didn't always lead to wins. His style was beatable, TD's wasn't.

this

TD4HOF
08-04-2012, 11:18 PM
Oh Lordy, memories are short.

<------------------------------------

UberBroncoMan
08-04-2012, 11:25 PM
Curtis Martin was just consistent at getting over 1,000 yards. Helped that ne never had any major season ending injuries. No Super Bowl wins. No insane amount of TD's. A career 4.0 YPC. Over 1,500 only twice. Moderate receiving.

Playing a lot of years does not a Hall of Fame player make.

He's close, but I'd say he's a level below. Playing in New York didn't hurt him. Playing on that side of the country never hurts.

http://www.nfl.com/player/fredtaylor/2503256/profile

Does he deserve it? Give him 3 years of "normal" production on those that he barely played and he's right up there with Curtis Martin basically every stat...except he averaged an extremely respectable 4.6 YPC.

Blueflame
08-04-2012, 11:26 PM
The argument for Sayers has been that he changed the KR game before anyone else. I don't think either Sayers or Davis deserve to be in the HOF, but Sayers did have 8 return TDs in just over 4 seasons before that was a "thing".

Sayers' numbers are similar to TD's though... and he lacked the MVP (SB and league) honors that TD had... plus TD still holds some postseason records and is among a handful of RBs who ever rushed for 2000 yards in a season.

KCStud
08-04-2012, 11:27 PM
If TD doesn't deserve to be in the HOF then neither does Gale Sayers.

Was Holmes league MVP? (we already know he wasn't SB MVP 'cause he would have been in diapers the last time KC was in the SB).

Priest did his fair share of historic stuff, like breaking the record for most NFL TD's in a season.

Gale Sayers was one of the best all around football players of his time. Not only was he a dominant RB, but he's also among the best kick returners of all time too.

How many players in NFL history were the best in the league at 2 positions on the field?

Cito Pelon
08-04-2012, 11:27 PM
Well if 1280 yards and 8 TDs per year really does it for you, then sure. Put Martin in the Hall.

???

Quit playing stupid, you're smart enough to know Curtis Martin averaged 1585 yards from scrimmage and 9.1 TD's per year. Had 15, 17, 14, 11, 10, 9 TD seasons out of his 11 seasons. He was a badass tailback, that's why he's in the HOF, duh.

houghtam
08-04-2012, 11:32 PM
Quit playing stupid, you're smart enough to know Curtis Martin averaged 1585 yards from scrimmage and 9.1 TD's per year. Yes, he was good for a long period of time. No one is doubting that. Had 15, 17, 14, 11, 10, 9 TD seasons out of his 11 seasons. He also had seasons of 4, 5, 7, 2 and 5 TDs. He was a badass tailback, that's why he's in the HOF, duh. He was good for awhile and never got injured. If that's enough for you then great. Personally I like my Halls of Fame smaller, not larger.

In bold.

ton80
08-04-2012, 11:48 PM
Un****ingbelievable. Curtis Martin was never the greatest at any point in his career. Ask Curtis Martin if he would rather have his career or TD's career. We all know the answer.

Cito Pelon
08-04-2012, 11:53 PM
Ok smart guy what has he done? Tell me.

TD led the NFL in rushing, went to two Superbowls and was SB MVP wemnt over 2,000 yards in a season. What has Martin done??

He went to one SB and lost.

His 17,000 yards are the quietest most non relevant 17,000 yards you'll ever see.

If TD had that longevity, he'd be in the HOF.

TD played 7 years, had 8887 yards from scrimmage, 65 total TD's.

That is 1269 yds from scrimmage, and 9.3 TD's per year.

Curtis Martin played 11 years, 1585 yds from scrimmage and 9.1 TD's per year.

TD could have got there, but as much as we'd like to see him in that's kind of skinny stats.

Cito Pelon
08-04-2012, 11:56 PM
Sometimes you homers disgust me.

NFLBRONCO
08-05-2012, 12:06 AM
Didn't TD have

SB MVP
League MVP
2,000 yds
highest avg per carry in playoff history or something similar

If TD's numbers are so avg why doesn't every RB reach these goals. I thought HOFwanted rings and production and best RB in the league in their time he took games over. Heck alot of people said, TD won SB's for Elway too.

SoCalBronco
08-05-2012, 12:16 AM
How did I know that KCStud would hijack a thread designed for a discussion of TD vs. Curtis Martin into a discussion about Priest Holmes?

NFLBRONCO
08-05-2012, 12:22 AM
If TD had that longevity, he'd be in the HOF.

TD played 7 years, had 8887 yards from scrimmage, 65 total TD's.

That is 1269 yds from scrimmage, and 9.3 TD's per year.

Curtis Martin played 11 years, 1585 yds from scrimmage and 9.1 TD's per year.

TD could have got there, but as much as we'd like to see him in that's kind of skinny stats.

A 6th round RB that did what he did in his short career was impressive. If I voted he'd be a guy I vote for HOF. He dominated and was best RB in the league and got 2 rings in a row. Homer or not I think he deserves it. Its a shame because he wasn't highly touted or overhyped he gets punished for it.

Blueflame
08-05-2012, 12:27 AM
Priest did his fair share of historic stuff, like breaking the record for most NFL TD's in a season.

Gale Sayers was one of the best all around football players of his time. Not only was he a dominant RB, but he's also among the best kick returners of all time too.

How many players in NFL history were the best in the league at 2 positions on the field?

I'm not making the argument that Sayers doesn't deserve the HOF. I'm saying that if the numbers are sufficient for him to be there, then TD's (similar) numbers are also sufficient, especially coupled with TD's other career achievements.

DENVERDUI55
08-05-2012, 12:30 AM
No but he had longevity. TD had 2 amazing years and that's it. Personally I tho k neither deserve the hall although TD was the best RB in late 90s.

SonOfLe-loLang
08-05-2012, 12:41 AM
Football is the one game where I dont think longevity matters, but impact does. TD's years were incredibly memorable and he still holds post season records. He may have only had 4 years or so, but my god, it didnt get better than those four years. He deserves a spot in the hall, he was the anchor for a back-to-back super bowl champ.

Jason7730
08-05-2012, 01:01 AM
Well they always say, "big-time players play biggest in the biggest games". No running back, in the biggest games (i.e. playoffs, etc.), was better in the annals of NFL history than T.D.. This isn't my homer opinion, but fact. When I think back in my 30+ years of watching football, T.D. was truly a serious game changer and his style most could not cope with. This isn't baseball where it's all about stat's (how many years, et al), at least it shouldn't be. IMHO. He could do everthing and you probably wouldn't want to mess with him either because he was tough as hell, as was most of our offense.

SouthStndJunkie
08-05-2012, 01:27 AM
Wait a sec.

Martin played 11 years, had 17,430 all purpose yards, 100 total TD's, 14,101 yds rushing, 90 TD's rushing, played 166 games out of 168 possible and he DEVALUES the HOF?????

Jesus ****ing lord, where do we get people like you from?

I agree....Curtis Martin wasn't a Top 5 all-time RB, but he deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

10 - 1,000 yard seasons in a row to start his career.

4th most rushing yards of all-time.

100 total TDs.

I'm not going to turn this into an emotion related debate by throwing Terrell Davis into the mix.

If Denver had a RB that would have put up the same exact career numbers that Curtis Martin did, Denver fans would be pissed if he wasn't elected into the Hall of Fame.

Bacchus
08-05-2012, 01:27 AM
If TD had that longevity, he'd be in the HOF.

TD played 7 years, had 8887 yards from scrimmage, 65 total TD's.

That is 1269 yds from scrimmage, and 9.3 TD's per year.

Curtis Martin played 11 years, 1585 yds from scrimmage and 9.1 TD's per year.

TD could have got there, but as much as we'd like to see him in that's kind of skinny stats.

TD's last three years were on two bad legs from the injuries. Take TDs stats from his first 4 years 1995-1998 when he was healthy and compare them to MARTIN's best 4 years.

Agamemnon
08-05-2012, 01:36 AM
The greatest playoff running back of all time deserves to be in the Hall. Period.

Garcia Bronco
08-05-2012, 02:05 AM
No but he had longevity. TD had 2 amazing years and that's it. Personally I tho k neither deserve the hall although TD was the best RB in late 90s.

4 amazing years...and that's about how long his career was. I don't even count the last 3.

extralife
08-05-2012, 03:08 AM
I didn't think he deserved it. Or rather, I thought it'd be maybe ok if he made it but dumb to put him in in his first year of eligibility.

But I always watch the enshrinement ceremony, and watching Curtis Martin speak today I'd find it really hard to muster any serious argument against him. That's the kind of guy you want to represent football. You give me that guy with his numbers--there's no argument against him that makes any sense. Yeah we want TD in, but focus that energy on TD, not against Martin. He's HOF material.

cutthemdown
08-05-2012, 03:19 AM
Anyone who thinks Martin anywhere near TD is crazy. Martin never struck absolute fear into a defense like TD did during his prime stretch. Not to mention dominating in the playoffs and Superbowl.

Martin worthy because of a long career where he was really good the whole time. But TD the more dominant player.

DarkHorse30
08-05-2012, 03:26 AM
Good for Martin. And good for TD, because NOW he can get in.....the Gale Sayers argument for TD's inclusion is too old for anybody to remember.....except the old voters that would say "yeah, but TD is no Gale Sayers", because that's what they do (nevermind 2000 yd season, SB mvp and total yards in 1998-). NOW TD's impact compared to Curtis Martin's is a completely relevant issue.

So who will be the next slightly above average WR that gets in that will make Rod Smith's inclusion a no-brainer?

rbackfactory80
08-05-2012, 05:40 AM
But I always watch the enshrinement ceremony, and watching Curtis Martin speak today I'd find it really hard to muster any serious argument against him. That's the kind of guy you want to represent football. You give me that guy with his numbers--there's no argument against him that makes any sense. Yeah we want TD in, but focus that energy on TD, not against Martin. He's HOF material.

This

All Class with a fantastic career. Played the game the right way and really is one of the last rb's to have that old school not all about himself bs mentality.

Raider9175
08-05-2012, 05:40 AM
Longevity is the only thing he had on TD.............and that shouldn't be the difference between getting in the hall. IF a guy just has a couple of great years and then gets lazy and fades away so be it but dammit you can't help it when your numb nutz qb throws a int and you own offensive lineman blows your knee out trying to tackle the guy.

IF Martin got in TD should too................had it not been for injury TD would have been the greatest.

Sorry Curtis Martin is a hall of famer and sTD will never be one. Get over it that is the fact that you just have to accept. IF is the biggest word in the dictionary . Hilarious!Hilarious!

HorseHead
08-05-2012, 05:49 AM
Martin definitely Hall worthy...great player, teammate, consistent etc., don't get some of the mild hate...

TD was a freak of nature, the Hendrix of running backs..., think about it, he could run, catch and could block like a Mo Fo..., he was one of those rare dudes that liked the impact..

barryr
08-05-2012, 06:25 AM
I think Martin deserves to be in the HOF. He wasn't flashy by any means, but that isn't what you have to be to be in the HOF. You have to be the best or one of the best at your position and he was and since so many RB's, like TD, have shorter careers, for him to play that long with few injuries is a great testament, though some might call it lucky.

But TD also belongs in the HOF. He was a dominant player at his position, ran for over 2,000 yards in a season, and a dominant player in a Super Bowl win.

TD had many great runs, but 2 of them stand out to me that showed what he was about.

First, playoffs against Miami. He gets the ball, gets free up the middle, a safety I believe comes to tackle him, but TD makes a nice move, fakes on way and goes the other, and the safety just falls flat to the ground and TD goes in for the score. It was just a quick run, and juke move and the safety had no shot, just left on the ground after thinking he had him.

The other is the Minnesota game, the one where McCaffrey caught the batted ball near the goal line towards the end of that game and was able to fall into the end zone with the ball for the winning score.

Earlier, I think on that same drive, though I may be wrong on that, anyway, there was a 4th and 1 in Minnesota territory and the Broncos go for it. I remember a toss to TD and you could see his determination to get that 1st down and power. He had so much momentum going, he was not going to be denied. It was only like a 2-3 year run, but I still remember that one to this day because I was thinking I was glad I wasn't trying to tackle him on that play since he was going to cause some pain on that one. I think TD would have run through a brick wall to get that 1st down.

Punisher
08-05-2012, 06:40 AM
Answer this.Do you think Curtis Martin would of help Elway win Back to Back Super Bowls? That will answer you question on who's better

DivineLegion
08-05-2012, 06:44 AM
Priest did his fair share of historic stuff, like breaking the record for most NFL TD's in a season.

Gale Sayers was one of the best all around football players of his time. Not only was he a dominant RB, but he's also among the best kick returners of all time too.

How many players in NFL history were the best in the league at 2 positions on the field?

Billy Thompson, and Billy still has records that haven't been broken.

errand
08-05-2012, 06:54 AM
The 4th all time rusher is HOF worthy.

Exactly...not to mention he also had how many consecutive years of 1000 yards or more rushing to start his career?

Doesn't mean he's a "better rb"......but he still is worthy as the NFL's 4th leading rusher all time. TD is betrayed by his early retirement due to injuries...and the success of the numerous guys who rushed for a lot of yards when they were our feature back in our zb system.

errand
08-05-2012, 07:00 AM
Answer this.Do you think Curtis Martin would of help Elway win Back to Back Super Bowls? That will answer you question on who's better

If mike anderson...olandis gary....clinton Portis...and tatum bell could gain 1000 (or close to it in Bell's case) or more yards in our offense....why would Martin be unable to?

You don't have to trash curtis to praise Terrell

jutang
08-05-2012, 07:24 AM
Good for Martin. And good for TD, because NOW he can get in.....the Gale Sayers argument for TD's inclusion is too old for anybody to remember.....except the old voters that would say "yeah, but TD is no Gale Sayers", because that's what they do (nevermind 2000 yd season, SB mvp and total yards in 1998-). NOW TD's impact compared to Curtis Martin's is a completely relevant issue.

So who will be the next slightly above average WR that gets in that will make Rod Smith's inclusion a no-brainer?

Agree with Martin getting in the HOF helps TD's case. Most writers and hall voters know who was the best back in the draft class. Any GM would could redo that draft would have taken TD #1 without a second thought.

errand
08-05-2012, 08:10 AM
Martin was a guy that averaged 4.2 YPC and never accomplised anything besides staying injury free.

Don Sutton won over 300 games in MLB....but only won 20 or more in one season.


Because i know how the Mane is....I'll start this off by saying I think TD is HoF worthy.

He averaged almost 99 yards per start and was one of the all-time best in the post season. He won an NFL MVP, and a SB MVP...and was named all-pro 3 times and voted to pro bowl 3 times as well.

He has nothing to be embarrassed about in his career. He's been a semi-finalist every season since 2007, I hope he'll get in eventually....but he isn't helped by the fact that his career was cut short and he wasn't the most durable RB.

Add in that less talented guys like Anderson, Gary, Bell, and Portis also had pretty good seasons in our ZB system and it does him no small favors....because some voters will say "Yeah, well anyone could do that in Denver"


As for Martin..... he averaged 4.2 per carry for 11 years in a profession where the average RB lasts 3-4....by contrast Davis averaged 4.6 over 7 seasons.

He averaged 1282 yards rushing per year for 11 years....he averaged 9 total TD's per season for 11 years. By comparison Davis averaged 1087 yards for 7 seasons with 9 total TD's

He fumbled only 29 times in those 11 seasons.....by contrast Davis fumbled 20 times in 4 fewer seasons or 99 fewer games.

He was the oldest player to win an NFL rushing title in 2004 with 1697 yards.....at 31 years old

He has 100 total TD's...something only 15 other players in NFL history have accomplished.

Contrary to popular belief, he was not selected in his first year of eligibility...he was denied the HoF induction in 2011.....just saying

not that it matters but he also has a perfect Qb rating of 158.3...having gone 2-2 for 2 TD's averaging 18 yards per completion

He started 119 consecutive games at one point....as a RB where the average guy is lucky to play 48-64 games in a career.

Curtis Martin is the NFL's 4th leading rusher all-time....he deserves to be in the hall like TD does.

rmsanger
08-05-2012, 08:23 AM
playing in NY vs. Den

Punisher
08-05-2012, 08:31 AM
If mike anderson...olandis gary....clinton Portis...and tatum bell could gain 1000 (or close to it in Bell's case) or more yards in our offense....why would Martin be unable to?

You don't have to trash curtis to praise Terrell

Yea mike anderson,olandis gary and tatum bell would of helped Elway win Back to Back titles

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/747558_o.gif

mwill07
08-05-2012, 08:31 AM
I gotta hand it to Curtis Martin - way to stay healthy, guy!:thumbsup:

Punisher
08-05-2012, 08:34 AM
If mike anderson...olandis gary....clinton Portis...and tatum bell could gain 1000 (or close to it in Bell's case) or more yards in our offense....why would Martin be unable to?

You don't have to trash curtis to praise Terrell

And i guess you fall into "It was just the zone blocking that made TD what he was theoriest"

errand
08-05-2012, 09:11 AM
playing in NY vs. Den

Yes...I'm sure media bias is a little bit of the problem. But also look at the teams they played on too. Just as a lot of folks make the Elway vs. Montana argument about the quality of the teams they played on...one could argue that TD played on much more talented teams than martin did, especially during the first 4 years of their careers

errand
08-05-2012, 09:16 AM
And i guess you fall into "It was just the zone blocking that made TD what he was theoriest"

No, please read with the intent to comprehend...


I said that the powers that decide who is in and who is out might say the ZBS Denver ran has made some lesser talents look pretty good, and hold that against Davis.

peacepipe
08-05-2012, 09:18 AM
TD will never get in for a few reasons mike anderson,orlandis gary,clinton portis,...etc. the ZBS that denver was using is killing his chances.cause the question remains was it the system or was it TD.

errand
08-05-2012, 09:25 AM
Yea mike anderson,olandis gary and tatum bell would of helped Elway win Back to Back titles

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/747558_o.gif


My God...you need to learn to read and comprehend. I said TD deserves to be in the Hall...however the NFL doesn't ask me who should or shouldn't get in. I gave a plausible reason as to why TD might not be getting the required number of votes to get in. I'm willing to bet if the names were reversed and TD was the ringless guy who had the longevity and health and finished 4th all time in yards, and Martin had the shorter career with the two monster seasons and MVP awards, you'd be saying the exact opposite.


As for whether or not Bell, Gary, Anderson or Portis could have helped Elway win a title....we'll never know now will we since Elway retired before they took over as RB....but are you seriously telling me that Curtis Martin wouldn't have had success in our ZBS?

errand
08-05-2012, 09:26 AM
TD will never get in for a few reasons mike anderson,orlandis gary,clinton portis,...etc. the ZBS that denver was using is killing his chances.cause the question remains was it the system or was it TD.

It shouldn't matter...and to Bronco fans it doesn't matter....but, until the fans select the honorees.....it will matter.

R-Mac
08-05-2012, 09:45 AM
IMO, we can't compare Curtis Martin to Terrell Davis in terms of HoF credentials. Martin ran for 14,000+ yards. 10 straight seasons with 1,000+ rushing yards. I mean, Martin had a lot of production to end any debate. Davis does not have the long-term stats, he has a short period of total domination. We can compare Terrell Davis to Gale Sayers, who joined the HoF with only 4,956 career rushing yards and 48 total touchdowns. Davis is more worthy than Sayers IMO.

BroncoLifer
08-05-2012, 09:58 AM
Wait a sec.

Martin played 11 years, had 17,430 all purpose yards, 100 total TD's, 14,101 yds rushing, 90 TD's rushing, played 166 games out of 168 possible and he DEVALUES the HOF?????

Jesus ****ing lord, where do we get people like you from?

Yeah, he does devalue the Hall. He was good but never great, nor did his play change the game in any way. When did any team say to themselves, "Oh crap, we have to play Curtis Martin this week"?

You get people like me from the pool of people who think the Hall of Fame should be the Hall of Great, not the Hall of Good. His bust will fit in well alongside legends like John Stallworth, Bob Griese and Harry Carson.

BroncoMan4ever
08-05-2012, 10:07 AM
Martin's numbers are an accumulation of time, and not really dominance. His entire career he was a dependable back that never suffered major injury never a true superstar. He was never feared or dominant or seen as elite.

The HOF is meant for the elites, the best of the best, guys who will be rememberred years from now. That doesn't describe Martin; and sadly outside of Denver TD is in the same catergory. Even though in a career half as long as Martin's he accomplished greater feats and was greater than Martin at any point in his career. TD needed 3 more years and there would be no questioning his HOF worthiness. Congrats to Martin on a not truly deserved honor.

houghtam
08-05-2012, 10:27 AM
Yeah, he does devalue the Hall. He was good but never great, nor did his play change the game in any way. When did any team say to themselves, "Oh crap, we have to play Curtis Martin this week"?

You get people like me from the pool of people who think the Hall of Fame should be the Hall of Great, not the Hall of Good. His bust will fit in well alongside legends like John Stallworth, Bob Griese and Harry Carson.

This x 1000

You've got basically two schools of thought here.

One says, "Players A, B and C are in the HOF, and Player X compares to A, B and C pretty well, so he deserves to be in the HOF."

The other says, "The HOF should be reserved for the greatest players of all time. Player X is not one of the greatest of all time, and therefore he does not deserve to get into the HOF."

Not really hard to see the difference there, and I really can't understand the animosity for either group toward the other. With regards to both Martin (and TD, for that matter), both of those schools of thought have convincing arguments for or against.

It really just comes down to wear you stand on HOF credentials. If your argument is that players should be considered HOF worthy based on how their stats compare to those already in, then Martin has a pretty strong argument, and so probably does Davis. If your stance is that only the greatest of all-time players should be in the Hall of Fame, neither Martin nor Davis probably get in.

If you lean either direction, but think Davis should get in and Martin shouldn't have...well, you're a homer and there is no hope for you. At least you picked the right team to root for, though. :wave:

DBroncos4life
08-05-2012, 10:29 AM
Exactly...not to mention he also had how many consecutive years of 1000 yards or more rushing to start his career?

Doesn't mean he's a "better rb"......but he still is worthy as the NFL's 4th leading rusher all time. TD is betrayed by his early retirement due to injuries...and the success of the numerous guys who rushed for a lot of yards when they were our feature back in our zb system.

10 straight one shy of Smiths record.

DBroncos4life
08-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Yeah, he does devalue the Hall. He was good but never great, nor did his play change the game in any way. When did any team say to themselves, "Oh crap, we have to play Curtis Martin this week"?

You get people like me from the pool of people who think the Hall of Fame should be the Hall of Great, not the Hall of Good. His bust will fit in well alongside legends like John Stallworth, Bob Griese and Harry Carson.

Yeah any DC that didn't game plan to stop a RB that finished in the top 10 in rushing 7 years and top 10 in ushing TDs 6 years is out of the NFL. I pains me to see people bashing Martin to make Davis seem more HOF worthy. Davis should go just like Martin.

Mediator12
08-05-2012, 11:25 AM
There is more than one way to make the Hall of fame. True greatness like Walter Payton or Extended excellence like Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis. They personified excellence at the position for an extended period of time in the NFL, however they were not truly the top Back of their generations. RB excellence more than any other position also has an ability to just play every week. Guys Like Bettis and Martin were top level reliable RB's for a long time.

Anyone who thinks it will EVER be easy to break the TOP 5 in CAREER rushing yards again needs to watch more teams play football and look at the top Rushers today. The NFL RB averages less than 2 years in the NFL, less than any other position in the NFL. The great ones may make it to ten years in the league with all the wear and tear of today's NFL. Heck 4 major concussions for a RB and they may never let them play again in a few years. Think about how hard it is to get hit each week and get back to practice and play next week.

I think guys like Martin deserve to be there, but he was never the best of the best. Very few guys are in every generation. He certainly was one of the toughest and most reliable RB's to ever play the game IMHO. And, that is enough to make the HOF for me.

Requiem
08-05-2012, 12:11 PM
Well stated, Med. Congratulations to Curtis Martin. One of my favorite players of all time. Way to go!

NFLBRONCO
08-05-2012, 12:30 PM
There is more than one way to make the Hall of fame. True greatness like Walter Payton or Extended excellence like Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis. They personified excellence at the position for an extended period of time in the NFL, however they were not truly the top Back of their generations. RB excellence more than any other position also has an ability to just play every week. Guys Like Bettis and Martin were top level reliable RB's for a long time.

Anyone who thinks it will EVER be easy to break the TOP 5 in CAREER rushing yards again needs to watch more teams play football and look at the top Rushers today. The NFL RB averages less than 2 years in the NFL, less than any other position in the NFL. The great ones may make it to ten years in the league with all the wear and tear of today's NFL. Heck 4 major concussions for a RB and they may never let them play again in a few years. Think about how hard it is to get hit each week and get back to practice and play next week.

I think guys like Martin deserve to be there, but he was never the best of the best. Very few guys are in every generation. He certainly was one of the toughest and most reliable RB's to ever play the game IMHO. And, that is enough to make the HOF for me.

Well done Med nice post agree with you

What are your feelings about TD and HOF?


I don't understand why length of time matters to HOF injuries are part of the game players shouldn't be punished for getting a career injury faster then some other guy.

errand
08-05-2012, 12:54 PM
Well done Med nice post agree with you

What are your feelings about TD and HOF?


I don't understand why length of time matters to HOF injuries are part of the game players shouldn't be punished for getting a career injury faster then some other guy.

It matters to some because it leads to assumptions....

One can assume that given TD's first 4 seasons that he'd have had an outstanding career....but he got injured, and he struggled to regain his form. Not his fault, but it is what happened....and while his first 4 years were made of accomplishments others can only dream about, the last 3 seasons were pretty forgettable.

Take pride in the fact he's been a semi-finalist 5 years running now...and hopefully, eventually he'll be recognized as one of the best

Cito Pelon
08-05-2012, 01:04 PM
There is more than one way to make the Hall of fame. True greatness like Walter Payton or Extended excellence like Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis. They personified excellence at the position for an extended period of time in the NFL, however they were not truly the top Back of their generations. RB excellence more than any other position also has an ability to just play every week. Guys Like Bettis and Martin were top level reliable RB's for a long time.

Anyone who thinks it will EVER be easy to break the TOP 5 in CAREER rushing yards again needs to watch more teams play football and look at the top Rushers today. The NFL RB averages less than 2 years in the NFL, less than any other position in the NFL. The great ones may make it to ten years in the league with all the wear and tear of today's NFL. Heck 4 major concussions for a RB and they may never let them play again in a few years. Think about how hard it is to get hit each week and get back to practice and play next week.

I think guys like Martin deserve to be there, but he was never the best of the best. Very few guys are in every generation. He certainly was one of the toughest and most reliable RB's to ever play the game IMHO. And, that is enough to make the HOF for me.

I digress, but yeah, Walter Payton was greatness. It was phenomenal what that guy did on pretty crappy teams and played at what maybe 200 lbs? Emmit Smith and Marcus Allen were smooth runners. Walter was pretty violent, he'd bang heads with anybody and keep the legs moving. Earl Campbell was the most bruising back I've ever seen, that dude would churn out yards with LB's and safeties draped all over him. Eddie George was sort of like that. Alright, soapbox mode off, carry on . . . . .

Mediator12
08-05-2012, 01:06 PM
Well done Med nice post agree with you

What are your feelings about TD and HOF?


I don't understand why length of time matters to HOF injuries are part of the game players shouldn't be punished for getting a career injury faster then some other guy.

TD would not get the longevity award ;D

However, was he one of the greatest RB's that ever played and one of the best of his generation? I think so. He had me at the second Superbowl when he went in as a decoy with a migraine and almost blind and allowed DEN to score a TD. How many guys would do that? Ronnie Lott maybe, but not many more, especially today.

houghtam
08-05-2012, 01:38 PM
Well done Med nice post agree with you

What are your feelings about TD and HOF?


I don't understand why length of time matters to HOF injuries are part of the game players shouldn't be punished for getting a career injury faster then some other guy.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it 4 years just so TD gets in? Or does somebody like Chris Johnson also get consideration? I mean, he did rush for 2k yards in a season.

Where do you draw the line on longevity?

Mediator12
08-05-2012, 02:02 PM
Where do you draw the line?

Is it 4 years just so TD gets in? Or does somebody like Chris Johnson also get consideration? I mean, he did rush for 2k yards in a season.

Where do you draw the line on longevity?

I see it as one or the other. Walter and Jim Brown were the 2 best RB's ever IMHO. No one has ever been that good for that long. Emmit Smith, who I also like, also got to play for one of the best overall teams of all time on both sides of the ball and had one of the best OL's in history.

Walter and Jim were simply the best IMHO. Barry Sanders was the most spectacular, but he was severely hurt by playing for the mediocre at their best Lions.

Longevity and Greatness there are only a few guys with both. The Second tier would be the greatness but not longevity. The third tier HOF RB's would be the guys like Martin and Bettis.

To me, the HOF is about Greatness first and then great accomplishments. TD was greatness, but shortlived. He also played on one of the greatest teams of all time. Having Elway and that great OL helped him win those awards. However, he was special outside of the team for what I posted earlier. He was simply special in the playoffs and the SB when it matterd the most. That is greatness defined for me!

KCStud
08-05-2012, 03:55 PM
I'm not making the argument that Sayers doesn't deserve the HOF. I'm saying that if the numbers are sufficient for him to be there, then TD's (similar) numbers are also sufficient, especially coupled with TD's other career achievements.

I think he's in the Hall of Fame more for how he changed the game. He was one of the first versatile athletes in the game.

elsid13
08-05-2012, 04:30 PM
I have no problem with Martin getting into the HOF, I think he was very solid professional that made a major difference for his teams. But he was not the RB of his era that goes to TD and Sanders. And TD should be in the HOF.

Rolandftw
08-05-2012, 04:52 PM
I think Martin deserves it. 13 seasons averaging over 1300 yards is very impressive for a running back. People are scoffing at this like it's an every day occurrence but if there isn't room in the Hall for the guy with the 4th most career rushing yards, might as well close it up.

TD's 2000 yard season gives him a chance to get in on that, but he only really had three great seasons. The fact that Denver was basically a 1,000 yard RB factory for years doesn't help his cause much either. Probably needed 2-3 more great seasons to be under serious consideration.

The two super bowl victories, really aren't that relevant when you have TD's total numbers. The best players should be in the Hall, not just those that played with great teams that happened to win titles.

Jetmeck
08-05-2012, 04:59 PM
Curtis Martin doesn't deserve to be in the HOF and neither does Terrell Davis.

The HOF is for the best of the best, not really good players.

Hell Priest Holmes was a really good player for a handful of years too, but no way he's a HOF.

Continue to prove your ignorance with that biased take.

Holmes vs TD is a joke and you know it.

Blueflame
08-05-2012, 04:59 PM
I think he's in the Hall of Fame more for how he changed the game. He was one of the first versatile athletes in the game.

I have no argument whatsoever regarding Sayers being in the Hall. Since he is there with similar career numbers to TD's... it would seem that TD's numbers... plus league MVP honors and SB MVP honors + postseason record... should be sufficient for him to be enshrined as well. Sayers is (rightfully) there... so TD should be also.

maher_tyler
08-05-2012, 05:19 PM
I'm sure TD would rather have his 2 SB rings than be inducted into the HoF. I think TD is a special situation to where they should make an exception. Dude was mentioned in the same sentence with Barry Sanders before he got hurt!

lonestar
08-05-2012, 05:26 PM
The 4th all time rusher is HOF worthy.

He was a long time go to RB that played in crappy weather for most if not all of his career..

A RB that I would have loved to have for all of those years and yards..

Should TD get in absolutely but most likely will never happen because he played in DEN THE PRESS death valley for HOF players..

He had a great career but just not long enough or enough SB wins as MVP to get the nod....


SOmeone mentioned that MArtin was not feared? tell that to the DC that played against him all the time.. that team did not have a Brady OR MAnning leading it and they won a lot of games because of his running..

~Crash~
08-05-2012, 05:32 PM
The greatest playoff running back of all time deserves to be in the Hall. Period.

Add in clutch as hell . hell add up all his yards that one 2000 Y year and all the yards in the playoofs and SB that has to a all time record of some sort...

~Crash~
08-05-2012, 05:37 PM
TD will get in he has the right people pulling for him .

~Crash~
08-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Rich Eisen and Adam Schefter will get him in the both are really close to him .

WolfpackGuy
08-05-2012, 06:07 PM
Outside the game he got injured, TD blew away Martin in their head to head matchups.

Just sucks Davis' legs didn't hold up as long as Martin's did because he was easily the better player in his heyday.

broncosteven
08-05-2012, 06:44 PM
Curtis Martin doesn't deserve to be in the HOF and neither does Terrell Davis.

The HOF is for the best of the best, not really good players.

Hell Priest Holmes was a really good player for a handful of years too, but no way he's a HOF.

NFL MVP means nothing to you?

A RB who went over 2k in one season is not the best of the best?

I know KFC fans don't remember what it is like to see their team have a SB MVP but that is about as good as it can get in a players career.

2 SB winning teams, 2 time NFL Rushing leader.

I think TD will get in but it won't be for a very long time, maybe 10-15 years from now someone will watch his highlights and say it is time to make a push but to say Martin who just had longevity on his side deserves to be in before an NFL and SB MVP is telling players it is better to be good than great.

broncosteven
08-05-2012, 06:48 PM
Outside the game he got injured, TD blew away Martin in their head to head matchups.

Just sucks Davis' legs didn't hold up as long as Martin's did because he was easily the better player in his heyday.

Martin was held to like 50 yards or less in the AFC Championship game in 1998, TD had at least 150 and a couple TD's.

Ok I had to look up the box score.

Martin had 14 yards on 13 carries and 1 TD.

TD had 167 yards on 32 carries and 1 TD but his TD was on a 31 yard rush.

Rolandftw
08-05-2012, 06:55 PM
I have no argument whatsoever regarding Sayers being in the Hall. Since he is there with similar career numbers to TD's... it would seem that TD's numbers... plus league MVP honors and SB MVP honors + postseason record... should be sufficient for him to be enshrined as well. Sayers is (rightfully) there... so TD should be also.

That rationale doesn't make much sense to me. Sayers revolutionized the game, and was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 1st in rushing yards for his 5 best years in the NFL. He played in a completely different era where the rules considerably favored the defense more so then the era TD played in

Terrell Davis putting up the same numbers in a completely different era is not nearly as impressive. TD might get in someday, but there are other RB's that will go in before him in the coming years. Bettis tops among them.

I'd say 2014-2016 is a possibility for TD but that assumes Bettis goes next year, which isn't a lock.

TheChamp24
08-05-2012, 07:45 PM
The one thing I think people overlook in regards to TD, is his playoff numbers. To me, those are important what he did in the biggest games of his career. He killed each and every opponent running the ball. Those are crazy numbers when you think about it, 1100 yards in 8 games with 12 TD's. Going up against good defenses too like the Chiefs, Steelers, Packers among others.
Couple that, with his regular season numbers, his accolades, is the reason why I believe TD should be in the HOF.

Agamemnon
08-06-2012, 03:18 AM
That rationale doesn't make much sense to me. Sayers revolutionized the game, and was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 1st in rushing yards for his 5 best years in the NFL. He played in a completely different era where the rules considerably favored the defense more so then the era TD played in

Terrell Davis putting up the same numbers in a completely different era is not nearly as impressive. TD might get in someday, but there are other RB's that will go in before him in the coming years. Bettis tops among them.

I'd say 2014-2016 is a possibility for TD but that assumes Bettis goes next year, which isn't a lock.

Sayers never led a team to back to back Super Bowls. Nor was he outright dominant in the playoffs like TD. While your points are valid, you seem to be missing that TD was just as revolutionary in his own way. No running back has ever been so massively instrumental in back to back Super Bowl wins. No one even comes close honestly.

ludo21
08-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Well if 1280 yards and 8 TDs per year really does it for you, then sure. Put Martin in the Hall.

???


How many backs can do this? Not many. Thus HOF worthy..

just because Martin deserved the Hall does not mean TD does not, its not vis a vis

cutthemdown
08-06-2012, 11:23 AM
We will see. It too many other rbs avg 1200 and under 10 tds a yr we good water down the hall. Its not gor good, its for unbelievably good, but I think they like letting people in.

houghtam
08-06-2012, 11:28 AM
How many backs can do this? Not many. Thus HOF worthy..

just because Martin deserved the Hall does not mean TD does not, its not vis a vis

Read my posts. I don't think either deserve the Hall.

Rolandftw
08-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Sayers never led a team to back to back Super Bowls. Nor was he outright dominant in the playoffs like TD. While your points are valid, you seem to be missing that TD was just as revolutionary in his own way. No running back has ever been so massively instrumental in back to back Super Bowl wins. No one even comes close honestly.

I agree that TD was a great playoff back. Not trying to diminish what he accomplished as a player, but think that people are really underrating longevity in the NFL. It's a very violent game, and very few players have the type of impact that Bettis and Martin did.

I suspect TD will go to the HOF someday but it's likely ten years away or so.

DBroncos4life
08-07-2012, 07:46 PM
Read my posts. I don't think either deserve the Hall.

Well that isn't shocking.

errand
08-07-2012, 09:03 PM
Well that isn't shocking.


Especially given his takes on QB's

mwill07
08-08-2012, 06:27 AM
In the History of the NFL, there are 6 backs with 1000 career post-season rushing yards. 5 of them did it in 16 or more games, and are all in the HoF. The 6th did it in 8 games, and is not in the HoF. that 6th back, of course, is Terrell Davis.

There are only 8 players eligible for the HoF to win NFL MVP and SB MVP. 7 of them are in the HoF. the 8th player, of course, is Terrell Davis.

BroncoBeavis
08-08-2012, 07:08 AM
Elway and the unfortunate timing of that injury is what killed TD's legacy.

If he had even one solid year on the field after Elway called it quits, and was "the guy" in Denver for just one season, he'd probably make the hall no questions asked.

His success was spectacular, but too short. And overshadowed somewhat by the twilight of Elway's career (finally getting his Lombardi)

houghtam
08-08-2012, 07:39 AM
Elway and the unfortunate timing of that injury is what killed TD's legacy.

If he had even one solid year on the field after Elway called it quits, and was "the guy" in Denver for just one season, he'd probably make the hall no questions asked.

His success was spectacular, but too short. And overshadowed somewhat by the twilight of Elway's career (finally getting his Lombardi)

Unfortunately, there's a lot for TD that is working against him as far as his HOF bid is concerned.

First, take his longevity/injury and Elway's retirement, like you stated. Then also consider the perception of the Denver running game for the years running after Davis. It's one thing for guys like Anderson and Portis to come in and rush for 1000 yards right away, but when you also have guys like Olandis Gary and Reuben Droughns rushing for over 1000 yards, that diminishes what Davis did in the perception of the Hall voters. Then you look at what our ZBS did for other franchises, and it makes it look more and more like Davis was (or at least could have been) a product of the system. Any doubt in the voters' minds creates a huge obstacle for any player. When it's supported by some of this evidence, it makes it a downright lock he'll never get in, IMO.

Tombstone RJ
08-08-2012, 08:03 AM
In the History of the NFL, there are 6 backs with 1000 career post-season rushing yards. 5 of them did it in 16 or more games, and are all in the HoF. The 6th did it in 8 games, and is not in the HoF. that 6th back, of course, is Terrell Davis.

There are only 8 players eligible for the HoF to win NFL MVP and SB MVP. 7 of them are in the HoF. the 8th player, of course, is Terrell Davis.

yah, it's numbers like this that cannot easily be ignored. Of course, those who choose who go into the HoF can easily ignore whatever they want, and on the flip side, magnify whatever they want to deny or justify an inductee.

See one Randy Gradishar.

BroncoBeavis
08-08-2012, 09:00 AM
Unfortunately, there's a lot for TD that is working against him as far as his HOF bid is concerned.

First, take his longevity/injury and Elway's retirement, like you stated. Then also consider the perception of the Denver running game for the years running after Davis. It's one thing for guys like Anderson and Portis to come in and rush for 1000 yards right away, but when you also have guys like Olandis Gary and Reuben Droughns rushing for over 1000 yards, that diminishes what Davis did in the perception of the Hall voters. Then you look at what our ZBS did for other franchises, and it makes it look more and more like Davis was (or at least could have been) a product of the system. Any doubt in the voters' minds creates a huge obstacle for any player. When it's supported by some of this evidence, it makes it a downright lock he'll never get in, IMO.

Good post. Totally agree with what you're saying. I just think if TD had one year as the successful face of the franchise, it would've given him the star power to overcome those kinds of objections. And it's not like you see too many HOF RB's that came from teams who suck running the ball.

BroncsRule
08-08-2012, 11:47 AM
In the History of the NFL, there are 6 backs with 1000 career post-season rushing yards. 5 of them did it in 16 or more games, and are all in the HoF. The 6th did it in 8 games, and is not in the HoF. that 6th back, of course, is Terrell Davis.

There are only 8 players eligible for the HoF to win NFL MVP and SB MVP. 7 of them are in the HoF. the 8th player, of course, is Terrell Davis.


In this vein: Who was the last RB to win the SB MVP award?

That's right: it was TD in SB XXXII.

14 years ago. No RB has been chosen since. How many more years do you suppose it will be before another RB, any other RB, is chosen?