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Quoydogs
08-04-2012, 10:13 AM
So there is no doubt Oscar Pistorius ( The Blade Runner ) is an amazing inspiration to everyone. My question is, is it a fair race ? People are saying the spring legs give him an advantage. What do you think ?

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=31229&stc=1&d=1344096780

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QD-oqGceF3A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:

maven
08-04-2012, 10:15 AM
So there is no doubt Oscar Pistorius ( The Blade Runner ) is an amazing inspiration to everyone. My question is, is it a fair race ? People are saying the spring legs give him an advantage. What do you think ?

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=31229&stc=1&d=1344096780

Well... Isn't that what the paralympics are for?

Quoydogs
08-04-2012, 10:19 AM
Well... Isn't that what the paralympics are for?

He races today in the Olympics

DBroncos4life
08-04-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't think I ever really imagined a time where I thought people would be asking does a dude with no legs have an unfair advantage over people with legs.

Quoydogs
08-04-2012, 10:28 AM
I don't think I ever really imagined a time where I thought people would be asking does a dude with no legs have an unfair advantage over people with legs.

It's amazing what he has done. He should be an inspiration to us all. But you can see what people are talking about. I think the springs could give you a clear advantage.

DBroncos4life
08-04-2012, 10:32 AM
It's amazing what he has done. He should be an inspiration to us all. But you can see what people are talking about. I think the springs could give you a clear advantage.

No other amputee is close to his times with the same legs though.

Jason in LA
08-04-2012, 10:37 AM
I'd say that at this point, because he's the only one, it's hard to say that there is an advantage. Seeing that there are many double amputation who run with artificial limbs, and he's the only one who has made it this far, it's hard to see this as an advantage. Now, if there are like 10 of these guys at the next Olympics, then it would seem like this is an advantage. And what happens if a runner without an amputation uses this?

So at this point we really don't know.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-04-2012, 10:39 AM
I don't think there's a whole lot of spring in those things. He's not getting propelled forward at all, and he's got really excellent running form.

Broncoman13
08-04-2012, 11:16 AM
Just watched his run. He doesn't look like he is exerting himself as much as the others. That being said, he clearly is a world class athlete. He puts the countless hours in just like the rest of the Olympians. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it and posting similar times. IMO, he is just an inspirational athlete, hardly a cheat.

Steve Prefontaine
08-04-2012, 11:36 AM
The human lower leg has a lot of "spring" by storing and releasing energy in the Achilles, plantar fascia, calf muscles, etc.

I hope his "legs" give him a comparable amount of spring.

Quoydogs
08-04-2012, 11:48 AM
Just watched his run. He doesn't look like he is exerting himself as much as the others. That being said, he clearly is a world class athlete. He puts the countless hours in just like the rest of the Olympians. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it and posting similar times. IMO, he is just an inspirational athlete, hardly a cheat.

I don't think anyone is calling him a cheat. More looking at it as a unfair advantage.

OBF1
08-04-2012, 11:57 AM
Imagine if Bolt has his legs removed on purpose and runs a sub 9 second 100 meter... Until that happens, let the man run and live his life long dream without doubts or comments from the haters.

Forget steriods.... Self mutillation will be the next craze for performance enhancement.

Worst thread in a month.

rugbythug
08-04-2012, 03:12 PM
Just watched his run. He doesn't look like he is exerting himself as much as the others. That being said, he clearly is a world class athlete. He puts the countless hours in just like the rest of the Olympians. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it and posting similar times. IMO, he is just an inspirational athlete, hardly a cheat.

Bolt doesn't look like he is trying hard when he destroys either. MJ was cool as a cucumber when he put a dagger in your back. Doing hard things and making them look easy means your are good.

gunns
08-04-2012, 03:45 PM
The human lower leg has a lot of "spring" by storing and releasing energy in the Achilles, plantar fascia, calf muscles, etc.

I hope his "legs" give him a comparable amount of spring.

Exactly and I believe this is what they found when they investigated it and allowed him back in. Sorry, but if we're going to go this far, we could say the black runners have an advantage with a longer Achilles. Any fantasy belief of an advantage is knocked down by the fact they are artificial legs.

SonOfLe-loLang
08-04-2012, 04:17 PM
Not to mention, I assume he didn't lose his legs and suddenly got faster with those. Plus there had to be a hell of an adjustment period.

Fedaykin
08-04-2012, 04:33 PM
I say good for him. He's engaging in the true spirit of the Olympics: being the best you can be.

Kaylore
08-04-2012, 04:38 PM
I would argue that while there probably are some structural and weight benefits of the prosthesis, they probably don't come close to the micro-control that a foot and toes give you. And as it's been pointed out, why is he the only one to be benefiting this much from this technology? That suggests his success is rooted in his athletic exceptionalism. If someone is one of the best in the world, should they be prevented from competitions against their peers because they have artificial limbs? It doesn't seem like they should, but as we advance our technology, we may need to draw some lines...

broncocalijohn
08-04-2012, 05:05 PM
I don't think I ever really imagined a time where I thought people would be asking does a dude with no legs have an unfair advantage over people with legs.

That is not the point. He isn't running with his hands. He is running with special prosethics (sic?) that are very light. I am not sure why he is allowed to run but leave it to political correctness. Just wait until an amputee Afghanistan Veteran white guy that has these same "legs" competes for the 100 yard dash and wins.

That will be proof enough!

He must be fast but it will be hard to tell until a young athlete loses his legs and has to compete like this. No volunteers to do this voluntarily though.

DBroncos4life
08-04-2012, 05:12 PM
That is not the point. He isn't running with his hands. He is running with special prosethics (sic?) that are very light. I am not sure why he is allowed to run but leave it to political correctness. Just wait until an amputee Afghanistan Veteran white guy that has these same "legs" competes for the 100 yard dash and wins.

That will be proof enough!

He must be fast but it will be hard to tell until a young athlete loses his legs and has to compete like this. No volunteers to do this voluntarily though.

Can you find another legless dude that runs as fast as this guy?

Beantown Bronco
08-04-2012, 05:54 PM
Worst thread in a month.

Please. Not even the worst in the last 24 hrs.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=106384

It's a legit question and is being debated everywhere right now.

Pontius Pirate
08-04-2012, 06:07 PM
Dude was BORN with no legs and is racing against Olympic runners WITH LEGS. Many (no one) people are asking: does the guy with no legs have an advantage? Many (no one) want to know.

cutthemdown
08-04-2012, 06:13 PM
You can see his blades build up momentum as he goes. Its a totally different thing going on then real legs. He should not be competing IMO. Its a good story but if he was fast enough to win, he would not be allowed its that simple.

How about someone born without arms using robot arms in the shooting competition. Ones that don't waver etc etc, oh and he has a bionic eye also lol. Just opens up a can of worms IMO.

Pontius Pirate
08-04-2012, 06:19 PM
You can see his blades build up momentum as he goes. Its a totally different thing going on then real legs. He should not be competing IMO. Its a good story but if he was fast enough to win, he would not be allowed its that simple.

How about someone born without arms using robot arms in the shooting competition. Ones that don't waver etc etc, oh and he has a bionic eye also lol. Just opens up a can of worms IMO.

Totally. And how about someone born without a brain competing in chess using a Terminator T2000 neuralnet processor? Or what if you were mangled in a horrible crime and were put back together as Robocop? Would it be fair for Robocop to compete in Judo? Literally, everyone (no one) is asking these hard-hitting and logical questions.

Lycan
08-04-2012, 08:43 PM
Totally. And how about someone born without a brain competing in chess using a Terminator T2000 neuralnet processor? Or what if you were mangled in a horrible crime and were put back together as Robocop? Would it be fair for Robocop to compete in Judo? Literally, everyone (no one) is asking these hard-hitting and logical questions.

Now I'm picturing Robocop, decked out in Judo gear, crying on the medal stand.

Maybe that will be in the reboot?

missingnumber7
08-04-2012, 08:58 PM
You can see his blades build up momentum as he goes. Its a totally different thing going on then real legs. He should not be competing IMO. Its a good story but if he was fast enough to win, he would not be allowed its that simple.

How about someone born without arms using robot arms in the shooting competition. Ones that don't waver etc etc, oh and he has a bionic eye also lol. Just opens up a can of worms IMO.

Really??? I guess all the testing that the international T&F Community did to see if he gained an advantage was for not becuase Cutthemdown says he gained an advantage. Its a 400M race...dude still needs to have the aerobic ability to run that distance at that speed. Hats off to him and a large step for athletes with disabilities and people with disabilities in general.

broncocalijohn
08-04-2012, 09:51 PM
Really??? I guess all the testing that the international T&F Community did to see if he gained an advantage was for not becuase Cutthemdown says he gained an advantage. Its a 400M race...dude still needs to have the aerobic ability to run that distance at that speed. Hats off to him and a large step for athletes with disabilities and people with disabilities in general.

How could they scientifically know? We all run with feet, tendons, muscles, knee caps, etc. He runs with light carbon fibers or whatever thye use. It is apples and oranges. How anyone thinks this is the same is nuts. He runs in the paralympics and kicks ass, he competes with other people with the same prosethetics. Compare apples to apples.

tsiguy96
08-04-2012, 09:58 PM
science gave him an ability that he was not born with, and he is being allowed to compete. its a great story and the guy is a beast runner, i dont think anyone is trying to take anything away from him in terms of ability, but at the end of the day its not the same.

Drek
08-05-2012, 06:44 AM
How could they scientifically know? We all run with feet, tendons, muscles, knee caps, etc. He runs with light carbon fibers or whatever thye use. It is apples and oranges. How anyone thinks this is the same is nuts. He runs in the paralympics and kicks ass, he competes with other people with the same prosethetics. Compare apples to apples.

So what you're really saying here is:

Physics - How do it work?

Quoydogs
08-05-2012, 09:27 AM
See I'm just fine with it until the point he is fast enough to win and how fair is that ? You will never truly know if it was because we attached artificial parts to a human. The Key word here is Artificial. When all the runners are 100% human there is no doubt. But once something like this artificial leg comes out, that creates doubt. Point being they have high speed camera's that shoot film at 30,000 frames per second so they can wipe out any doubt who crosses the finish line first. They drug test you before and after the event. ect..... They do all this so that we can know who the real winner is and a lot of that comes from getting rid of any doubt and you can't do that when the word artificial comes into play.


That being said the guy is amazing. I love that fact that he looked his disability in the face and said **** YOU !!!

Pontius Pirate
08-05-2012, 10:21 AM
Literally everyone (no one) is wondering whether cutting off their legs will give them an advantage over other healthy Olympic runners

Broncos4tw
08-05-2012, 11:38 AM
He was not born with no legs, but they were amputated when he was young (11 months I think). And I'll believe a group that studied in depth over a bunch of sports fans who think they see him "not running as hard" or think they detect "more spring." I imagine he loses some inertia just trying to balance on those suckers.

houghtam
08-05-2012, 12:03 PM
As some of you know, I went to Germany 8 years ago to serve as a translator for my brother's back surgery. They did a dual-level replacement of a couple of his discs in his lower back. The surgeon was telling us that the design of the discs allowed for 20% more lateral mobility and something like 40% more "twist" ability, whatever that's called. Basically you're able to twist the discs an additional 20 degrees in either direction.

Anyway, I asked him what's to stop a millionaire athlete from just having all his discs replaced to give him more mobility and make him a better athlete?

Hey, did you guys know that the German word for "idiot" is "idiot"?

broncocalijohn
08-05-2012, 02:43 PM
So what you're really saying here is:

Physics - How do it work?

So you are saying without a shadow of doubt that the prosthetics have absolutely no advantage over human anatomy? I say when we have a case study of athletes that end up being amputated with both legs for this experiment, we will know the answer. It isn't happening anytime soon. Seems when we want to make something better, it comes with mechanics. I watched 6 million dollar man. They weren't stealing any human parts for his bionic arm.

MagicHef
08-05-2012, 03:12 PM
So you are saying without a shadow of doubt that the prosthetics have absolutely no advantage over human anatomy? I say when we have a case study of athletes that end up being amputated with both legs for this experiment, we will know the answer. It isn't happening anytime soon. Seems when we want to make something better, it comes with mechanics. I watched 6 million dollar man. They weren't stealing any human parts for his bionic arm.

An advantage over whose human anatomy? No matter how much I train, I will never be able to swim as well as Phelps, because I do not have his arm length or foot size. Everyone is built differently, and since there's no baseline for human performance, it's pretty difficult to say that this guy is better with his prosthetic legs than he would be without.

Why is this guy so much better than other runners with these prosthetics? Could it be that he's just a really good athlete?

broncocalijohn
08-05-2012, 03:17 PM
^^ I thin Oscar is a bonafide athlete and the other guys are not so much an athlete in the light of an Olympian. There is also much less competition. Oscar knows how to use his "running" legs to his strengths and advantages.

Pontius Pirate
08-05-2012, 03:27 PM
So you are saying without a shadow of doubt that the prosthetics have absolutely no advantage over human anatomy? I say when we have a case study of athletes that end up being amputated with both legs for this experiment, we will know the answer. It isn't happening anytime soon. Seems when we want to make something better, it comes with mechanics. I watched 6 million dollar man. They weren't stealing any human parts for his bionic arm.

On behalf of handicapped people around the globe: please shut the f*ck up.

FISH
08-05-2012, 03:45 PM
He doesn't have to deal with lower leg injuries, pain and fatigue.

That said...I'm sure he has his own pains and fatigue to deal with that differs from others

Wes Mantooth
08-05-2012, 04:01 PM
He doesn't have to deal with lower leg injuries, pain and fatigue.

That said...I'm sure he has his own pains and fatigue to deal with that differs from others

advantage how? He has no legs bro. I don't understand how this could be conceived as an advantage. He has no legs.

By the way, he has no legs.

Kaylore
08-05-2012, 04:26 PM
Do you any of you know anyone who has had to use prosthetic legs? I do. Basically unless someone grew up from a very young age using them, as this man his, there is no way they could race in them, let alone race in the Olympics. Since he has no calf muscle, his strength in his lower leg is capped at whatever the spring load is for those things. He has no muscle control of his foot. The fact that he is even able race as fast as he can is in itself amazing. I can't believe people actually think "it's easy" and that he is getting an unfair advantage.

Wes Mantooth
08-05-2012, 05:57 PM
Do you any of you know anyone who has had to use prosthetic legs? I do. Basically unless someone grew up from a very young age using them, as this man his, there is no way they could race in them, let alone race in the Olympics. Since he has no calf muscle, his strength in his lower leg is capped at whatever the spring load is for those things. He has no muscle control of his foot. The fact that he is even able race as fast as he can is in itself amazing. I can't believe people actually think "it's easy" and that he is getting an unfair advantage.

Right on.

chadta
08-05-2012, 09:24 PM
I thought the whole point of special Olympics was to give the special athletes a shot. If this guy can do it without the lower competition than more power to him.

FISH
08-05-2012, 09:43 PM
advantage how? He has no legs bro. I don't understand how this could be conceived as an advantage. He has no legs.

By the way, he has no legs.

I wasn't actually saying it was an advantage....I can only imagine how uncomfortable those may be and the wear and tear they may cause from where they are attached and all the way up the body.

While they may only give as much spring as a normal foot the wearer still does not have to deal with the pain and fatigue in those lower limbs...which makes it different.....better? I sincerely doubt it but who knows. While he may be absent the specific pain of perhaps his calf cramping or his arch hurting that may plague him physically and mentally...I'm sure he has a crop of pains and issues that the others don't have to deal with.

BroncoBeavis
08-05-2012, 09:55 PM
The Science was long ago settled.

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Unfair. :)

Quoydogs
08-05-2012, 10:38 PM
Worst thread in a month.



Just watched a 30 minute special on prime time television about this. I agree with you people must not be interested in it at all. :kiss:

Turd_Ferguson
08-05-2012, 11:01 PM
Really impossible to say if the artificial legs give him an advantage or not... He was born without legs, so its impossible to compare times he may have had with actual legs as compared to with artificial legs... I watched him tonight, and he got dead last in his semi final, so its really a non issue. I think its an amazing story, and he seems to be a pretty inspirational guy. I'm glad he did it. I saw the MIT guy that designed pistorius' legs and he had some "bionic" legs that were amazing. Crazy to think that we are living in a time in which we are on the threshhold of doing things that we saw in Star Wars growing up and thought they were impossible and now are actually happening. Incredible...

ol#7
08-06-2012, 02:23 AM
Really impossible to say if the artificial legs give him an advantage or not... He was born without legs, so its impossible to compare times he may have had with actual legs as compared to with artificial legs... I watched him tonight, and he got dead last in his semi final, so its really a non issue. I think its an amazing story, and he seems to be a pretty inspirational guy. I'm glad he did it. I saw the MIT guy that designed pistorius' legs and he had some "bionic" legs that were amazing. Crazy to think that we are living in a time in which we are on the threshhold of doing things that we saw in Star Wars growing up and thought they were impossible and now are actually happening. Incredible...

This does lead to an interesting point, is there an advantage that can be gained by improving the technology that goes into his legs at some future point that would provide an unfair advantage?

He is far from being the athlete from his own country with the biggest unfair advantage though (I dont think he has an advantage at the moment btw). That dude Semyana Castor is running in the womens 800m and has testicles that never dropped. That is a pretty big advantage. The dude makes her own testosterone.

broncocalijohn
08-06-2012, 10:34 AM
On behalf of handicapped people around the globe: please shut the **** up.

No, I will not. Just because I believe a possible advantage can be had by these special legs doesn't make me insensitive to their situation. THese legs are not built for everyday use. They are used for running. I will repeat, until we have a case study of both usuage from the same participants, we will not fully understand the advantage (if there is one). This will probably never happen as the cases will be such a small sample.
Oscar has been able to master the use of them and is an athlete himself. We just cant have a definite answer (yet) based on case study.

Just because some can publically speak out on a possible advantage, doesnt make us insensitive. Many just don't want to say anything because of the hand those athletes have been handed to them.

houghtam
08-06-2012, 10:42 AM
No, I will not. Just because I believe a possible advantage can be had by these special legs doesn't make me insensitive to their situation. THese legs are not built for everyday use. They are used for running. I will repeat, until we have a case study of both usuage from the same participants, we will not fully understand the advantage (if there is one). This will probably never happen as the cases will be such a small sample.
Oscar has been able to master the use of them and is an athlete himself. We just cant have a definite answer (yet) based on case study.

Just because some can publically speak out on a possible advantage, doesnt make us insensitive. Many just don't want to say anything because of the hand those athletes have been handed to them.

Feel free to whine all you want, but it looks like the people who actually make decisions, and you know, matter, disagree with you.

They investigated it, and they have no problem with it.

"How can they scientifically know?" Really? I'm guessing that the people who are able to "scientifically know" whether someone is doping can also use science (science!) to figure out if someone with prosthetic legs gains a competitive advantage...or at least they have a better idea than you, a guy behind a keyboard.

Houshyamama
08-06-2012, 10:44 AM
I'd say that at this point, because he's the only one, it's hard to say that there is an advantage. Seeing that there are many double amputation who run with artificial limbs, and he's the only one who has made it this far, it's hard to see this as an advantage. Now, if there are like 10 of these guys at the next Olympics, then it would seem like this is an advantage. And what happens if a runner without an amputation uses this?

So at this point we really don't know.

Many? Define many. If you total them all up across the US it might seem like "many", but as a percentage of the population they are VERY few. Carry on.

RaiderH8r
08-06-2012, 10:47 AM
This is really happening? The dude. Has. No. Legs. Having no legs as a runner seems like a distinct disadvantage. The dude is literally missing roughly 50% of the muscle groups necessary for everybody else to run and his "spring loaded magic legs" are somehow an advantage? GTFO. There is no robotic mechanism involved, there are no hydraulics involved. They are there for balance FFS. You want a case study into the advantages of running without legs? He is literally one in millions with prostheses who have made the cut into the Olympics. There. No. Advantage.

This is not even close to a debate. This is absurdity masquerading as a debate.

BroncoBeavis
08-06-2012, 10:51 AM
This is not even close to a debate. This is absurdity masquerading as a debate.

But it's entertaining absurdity. So there is that. :)

broncocalijohn
08-06-2012, 11:25 AM
Feel free to whine all you want, but it looks like the people who actually make decisions, and you know, matter, disagree with you.

They investigated it, and they have no problem with it.

"How can they scientifically know?" Really? I'm guessing that the people who are able to "scientifically know" whether someone is doping can also use science (science!) to figure out if someone with prosthetic legs gains a competitive advantage...or at least they have a better idea than you, a guy behind a keyboard.

DO you realize they can do testing on dopers? They test the same people without the dope and then give them the dope to see how they perform. We can't do that in this situation. THat is my beef. It is artificial compared to real.

BroncoBeavis
08-06-2012, 11:38 AM
DO you realize they can do testing on dopers? They test the same people without the dope and then give them the dope to see how they perform. We can't do that in this situation. THat is my beef. It is artificial compared to real.

They allow albuterol for asthma sufferers, even though it has performance enhancing characteristics. Not sure how that's any different.

24champ
08-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Are we really arguing about a legless dude having an advantage in RUNNING?

http://www.cavemancircus.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2012/februrary/i_dont_want_to_live_on_this_planet_anymore/i_dont_want_to_live_on_this_planet_anymore_20.jpg

Steve Prefontaine
02-14-2013, 07:32 AM
Wow, pretty crazy and very sad.

http://running.competitor.com/2013/02/news/oscar-pistorius-charged-with-murder_65877

Goobzilla
02-14-2013, 08:10 AM
Sounds like the "accidental" part is under a lot of scrutiny right now.

broncocalijohn
02-14-2013, 09:58 AM
Sounds like the "accidental" part is under a lot of scrutiny right now.

I was going to bump this bad boy when I read the story on Yahoo.

I think if the facts about him with domestic violence, he won't have a leg to stand on.

:yayaya:

Beantown Bronco
02-14-2013, 10:05 AM
I think if the facts about him with domestic violence, he won't have a leg to stand on.

:yayaya:

Nice one.

A good criminal defense lawyer will cost him an arm and a leg. Guess he's out of luck there.

broncocalijohn
02-14-2013, 10:25 AM
Nice one.

A good criminal defense lawyer will cost him an arm and a leg. Guess he's out of luck there.

I will go out on a limb and say he will need to ask for a discount.


You got another one to volley?

SonOfLe-loLang
02-14-2013, 10:48 AM
I will go out on a limb and say he will need to ask for a discount.


You got another one to volley?

This convo has legs!

gyldenlove
02-14-2013, 12:05 PM
Sounds like the "accidental" part is under a lot of scrutiny right now.

I don't see how this could be accidental unless he was doing some pretty serious hallucinogenic drugs at the time. There is just no way you wake up in the middle of the night, get your 9mm, get out of bed see a person in your house and get off 4 shots including a head shot on a person in your house without realizing that you were the only one in the bed when you got up and that the person you are gunning down looks suspiciously like a woman in night attire.

DBroncos4life
02-14-2013, 12:06 PM
How sad is it the guy could over come a epic amount of challenges his whole life and yet can't rationally handle this situation.

gunns
02-14-2013, 12:32 PM
I don't see how this could be accidental unless he was doing some pretty serious hallucinogenic drugs at the time. There is just no way you wake up in the middle of the night, get your 9mm, get out of bed see a person in your house and get off 4 shots including a head shot on a person in your house without realizing that you were the only one in the bed when you got up and that the person you are gunning down looks suspiciously like a woman in night attire.

Doing serious hallucinogenic drugs doesn't make it an accident. And we often hear about "mistaken" identities in shootings which often intrigue me. Was this person attacking you? Even coming at you? Yet you blow off 4 shots?

Have to say the comments from Omaners are very amusing and am now using them at work. Funny!

Lestat
02-14-2013, 01:33 PM
a head shot isn't accidental. you don't aim for the head without knowing exactly what you're doing.