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Rohirrim
07-23-2012, 09:47 AM
$60 million. No post-season for four years. Vacating all victories from 1998 to 2011 (which means Paterno is no longer the winningest coach). Also, "Penn State will lose 10 initial scholarships and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-penalties-include-60-million-fine-and-bowl-ban.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw

Good for them. It reminds me of those Catholic bishops sacrificing children to protect the priests and the church. Paterno did the same thing to protect his football program. Now, his statue is gone and his victories are gone. Justice is done. ;D

Requiem
07-23-2012, 09:49 AM
They should have gutted the program entirely. Get rid of football there. They don't deserve to field a team, but we know how important athletics are to getting $ for universities, so of course the NCAA didn't have the balls to do that.

Rohirrim
07-23-2012, 09:51 AM
They should have gutted the program entirely. Get rid of football there. They don't deserve to field a team, but we know how important athletics are to getting $ for universities, so of course the NCAA didn't have the balls to do that.

I think it's a sufficient warning to the rest of college athletics. Paterno ignored Sandusky's crimes in order to protect the program. Now, the program pays the price.

long beach bronco
07-23-2012, 09:53 AM
WOW!!! I just feel sorry for the football players and die hard fans of Penn State that had nothing to do with this that now must suffer the consequences.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2012, 09:58 AM
I think everyone involved should be punished to the fullest extent. I just dont see why the football program, as an institution, is the one to blame. This was the act of men, not a sport, and there's a **** ton of student athletes that are getting the brunt of this. If you wanna gut the program and start anew, fine, but im not sure why getting rid of scholarships is the proper course of action

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 09:58 AM
This was the proper response to what Penn State did from a football perspective. They covered up for a pedo to keep their football program from losing resuits for almost 15 years. It was strange to me that people thought the NCAA wouldn't do anything.

Props to Penn State for accepting the punishment.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 09:58 AM
I think everyone involved should be punished to the fullest extent. I just dont see why the football program, as an institution, is the one to blame. This was the act of men, not a sport, and there's a **** ton of student athletes that are getting the brunt of this. If you wanna gut the program and start anew, fine, but im not sure why getting rid of scholarships is the proper course of action

But it was in fact covered up to protect the football program.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2012, 10:01 AM
But it was in fact covered up to protect the football program.

Sure, but thats still the actions of men, not a football program. Wouldn't the program be the innocent victim in all this? Get rid of all the rot, anyone who had anything todo with it, rebuild the locker rooms (whatever you want), but getting rid of scholarships seems odd. Its not like they did this for a competitive advantage

enjolras
07-23-2012, 10:03 AM
Sure, but thats still the actions of men, not a football program. Wouldn't the program be the innocent victim in all this? Get rid of all the rot, anyone who had anything todo with it, rebuild the locker rooms (whatever you want), but getting rid of scholarships seems odd. Its not like they did this for a competitive advantage

I completely agree. At this point the actual rapist is in jail, the coach is dead, and the remaining conspirators are disgraced and likely facing criminal charges of some kind.

This is nothing but a gratuitous pile-on by the NCAA which punishes all of the wrong people.

canadianbroncosfan
07-23-2012, 10:04 AM
Wow am I glad to see this. And I know some will say that it`s not doing anything for the victims, but it really is because it`s showing how severe this was and how seriously it`s being treated. The legal system will do the rest for the victims.

Part of this read:
``In announcing the penalties, Mark Emmert, the N.C.A.A. president, called the case the most painful “chapter in the history of intercollegiate athletics,” and said it could be argued that the punishment was “greater than any other seen in N.C.A.A. history.” ``

Correct me if I`m wrong, but has there ever been a more severe act in NCAA sports history?

Hercules Rockefeller
07-23-2012, 10:04 AM
And the starting QB for Paterno's last official win?

Mike McQueary

JLesSPE
07-23-2012, 10:05 AM
Sure, but thats still the actions of men, not a football program. Wouldn't the program be the innocent victim in all this? Get rid of all the rot, anyone who had anything todo with it, rebuild the locker rooms (whatever you want), but getting rid of scholarships seems odd. Its not like they did this for a competitive advantage

If they lost a bunch of recruits because their DC was a pedo then I'd say they'd lose quite a bit of competitive ability. So in a round about way they did have a competitive advantage.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 10:08 AM
Sure, but thats still the actions of men, not a football program.

No...because the head coach of the football program and the AD conspired to keep it under wraps and up until a week before 11/11/11 Sanduckey was still using the Penn State facility. It violated NCAA rules up and down...especially under the section about conduct of member institutions.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 10:09 AM
This also means Bobby Bowden is the all-time winning coach.

Rohirrim
07-23-2012, 10:12 AM
Sure, but thats still the actions of men, not a football program. Wouldn't the program be the innocent victim in all this? Get rid of all the rot, anyone who had anything todo with it, rebuild the locker rooms (whatever you want), but getting rid of scholarships seems odd. Its not like they did this for a competitive advantage

That's like saying the Catholic Church is not responsible for the actions of its priests. Paterno failed to take action in order to protect the program, just like some bishops failed to take action in order to protect the church. And in the end, it was the church that paid, just like Penn State will pay now. And who knows what Paterno was thinking, regarding competitive advantage? If he stepped up and brought Sandusky's crimes to light (as he should have) Penn State would have paid then as well. The penalty should rightfully be tenfold because Paterno failed to act to protect the children.

It's like saying the officers of corporations can do anything they want because the corporation and shareholders (who benefit from the crimes) are separate from the actions of individuals within the organization. A dangerous idea.

Requiem
07-23-2012, 10:12 AM
This also means Bobby Bowden is the all-time winning coach.

You damn right he is! :thumbs:

broncocalijohn
07-23-2012, 10:14 AM
I completely agree. At this point the actual rapist is in jail, the coach is dead, and the remaining conspirators are disgraced and likely facing criminal charges of some kind.

This is nothing but a gratuitous pile-on by the NCAA which punishes all of the wrong people.

This is what happens when you **** up. It happened to SC and I didnt hear too many here saying that Bush losing his Heisman trophy is good enough. This was waaaaay worse. THis was a crime. While I don't think the wins should be taken away, This happened because they wanted to defend a football and university's name. Well, here is the punishment for it. Jo Pa protecting his team to make sure he continues getting his players onto campus by keeping a crime hush hush and crimes continued.
USC didnt suffer too much. Let us see if the love of Penn State after this lets the team continue to be competitive.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 10:15 AM
That's like saying the Catholic Church is not responsible for the actions of its priests. Paterno failed to take action to protect the program, just like some bishops failed to take action to protect the church. And in the end, it was the church that paid, just like Penn State will pay now. And who knows what Paterno was thinking, regarding competitive advantage? If he stepped up brought Sandusky's crimes to light (as he should have) Penn State would have paid then as well. The penalty should rightfully be tenfold because Paterno failed to act to protect the children.

It's like saying the officers of corporations can do anything they want because the corporation and shareholders (who benefit from the crimes) are separate from the actions of individuals within the organization. A dangerous idea.

This. I can understand giving the guy the benefit of the doubt in 1998, but when the same cahrges came up in 2001....that was it. It should have been on-point, get this guy to jail and at least off our campus.

gunns
07-23-2012, 10:27 AM
WOW!!! I just feel sorry for the football players and die hard fans of Penn State that had nothing to do with this that now must suffer the consequences.

I feel sorry for the guys that suffered the consequences of Sandusky's actions and as a result, JoePa's.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 10:28 AM
The football players there can transfer with no penalty.

Kaylore
07-23-2012, 10:29 AM
I understand the concern some have with this. It's not like students or student body were cheating. The teachers and rest of the coaches weren't doing things to gain an unfair advantage. Why should the football program be punished when the primary instigators are going to jail forever or dead?

The reason is because the faculty knew of the problem and used this coverup specifically to protect the football program. A thriving football program is a gravy train for a University. The powers that be acted to cover up a horrible act to ensure their football program and university resources would be protected.

At the very least, Penn State deserves this for putting too much trust and power in one man. No matter how moral someone can seem, everyone is human and letting someone have that kind of unilateral power is irresponsible.

bases055
07-23-2012, 10:32 AM
What's the point of even playing the games out? IMO the death penalty would have been far less embarrassing than the product they will be putting on the field.

Drunken.Broncoholic
07-23-2012, 10:38 AM
It would've been easier had they just suspend the program for a year or 2. NCAA is just making penn st an example of "don't screw up like this" across the nation. They have harsh sanctions just for recruit violations. They needed to show they mean business.

McDman
07-23-2012, 10:39 AM
This also means Bobby Bowden is the all-time winning coach.

I believe it will be Eddie Robinso.

Kaylore
07-23-2012, 10:39 AM
What's the point of even playing the games out? IMO the death penalty would have been far less embarrassing than the product they will be putting on the field.

They can still sell tickets and generate revenue. I think they can get TV revenue, too.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2012, 10:39 AM
That's like saying the Catholic Church is not responsible for the actions of its priests. Paterno failed to take action in order to protect the program, just like some bishops failed to take action in order to protect the church. And in the end, it was the church that paid, just like Penn State will pay now. And who knows what Paterno was thinking, regarding competitive advantage? If he stepped up and brought Sandusky's crimes to light (as he should have) Penn State would have paid then as well. The penalty should rightfully be tenfold because Paterno failed to act to protect the children.

It's like saying the officers of corporations can do anything they want because the corporation and shareholders (who benefit from the crimes) are separate from the actions of individuals within the organization. A dangerous idea.

I see your points and they are interesting, but I'm not sure the Catholic Church is really a great comparison because there's no governing body that controls them. Its not like corporations playing with money either because they generally do so for some kind of monetary advantage that correlates with the money put there in the first place.

In this case, the crimes, to me, had nothing to do with football and everything to do with protecting friends and the "sanctity" of a program that they just represented. They weren't the program itself. Criminal charges should be filed for the individuals. I suppose if you could prove that nipping this in the bud years ago would have put Penn State at a football disadvantage, then id tend to agree more...but im not sure that would be the case. Its a dicey situation, no doubt, i just think there are a lot of innocent victims in this ruling.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2012, 10:43 AM
I understand the concern some have with this. It's not like students or student body were cheating. The teachers and rest of the coaches weren't doing things to gain an unfair advantage. Why should the football program be punished when the primary instigators are going to jail forever or dead?

The reason is because the faculty knew of the problem and used this coverup specifically to protect the football program. A thriving football program is a gravy train for a University. The powers that be acted to cover up a horrible act to ensure their football program and university resources would be protected.

At the very least, Penn State deserves this for putting too much trust and power in one man. No matter how moral someone can seem, everyone is human and letting someone have that kind of unilateral power is irresponsible.


This makes more sense, though I'd like to know how far the rot actually went. Agree about too much power in one man, but now the man is dead, it seems like they are flinging blame somewhere because they dont know where else to do it.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 10:46 AM
I believe it will be Eddie Robinso.

408 for him
377 for Bowden...so it is Eddie
298 paterno (111 wins removed)


(251 Frank Beamer:)

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2012, 10:47 AM
408 for him
377 for Bowden...so it is Eddie
298 paterno (111 wins removed)


(251 Frank Beamer:)

Is there anything dumber than vacating wins? Should they order the erasing of our memories too?

Kaylore
07-23-2012, 10:50 AM
This makes more sense, though I'd like to know how far the rot actually went. Agree about too much power in one man, but now the man is dead, it seems like they are flinging blame somewhere because they dont know where else to do it.

There is an element of them having to do something because a lot of people expect them to. However there are leaders at the institution that weren't involved with the coverup, but were ok with letting JoPa "do whatever" and that is the kind of power structure that allowed for this to happen. In that sense, the University creating an environment where this situation was possible in the first place, is totally guilty.

Kaylore
07-23-2012, 10:51 AM
Is there anything dumber than vacating wins?

I totally agree.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 10:51 AM
Is there anything dumber than vacating wins? Should they order the erasing of our memories too?

Considering Paterno didn't actually coach the team past 2005...I think it's more than fitting in adition to the actual reason it was done.

bases055
07-23-2012, 10:54 AM
They can still sell tickets and generate revenue. I think they can get TV revenue, too.


I don't see Penn State football being televised for a very long time...it would just be awkward commentation during blowout after blowout, trying to avoid the subject all the while. The 5 or whatever leftover scholarships they'll have each year won't go to any top prospects because nobody will want to go there...too much negative publicity and bad football. A full squad of walkon replacements for 4 full years before they can even consider rebuilding with a guaranteed zero bowl games. This is nothing like the U.S.C. scandal, its far more crippling-both the cause and the punishment.

OBF1
07-23-2012, 10:54 AM
Knocking Paterno of the top of the wins list is a great thing. He covered up for a convicted pedophile, protecting his POS friend while children were being molested... Joe Paterno and Penn State got what they deserved... total and complete embarassment.

I hope atleast some of the pain the children suffered has been eased with the NCAA decision and the conviction of the POS called Jerry Sandusky.

Rohirrim
07-23-2012, 10:56 AM
Is there anything dumber than vacating wins? Should they order the erasing of our memories too?

There are few crimes more egregious than child rape. Paterno knowingly covered up Sandusky's crimes. His memory should be erased, at least from the record books. In the end, if you don't uphold honor, in some way, then honor becomes meaningless. Paterno traded his honor and now pays the price, even posthumously.

It reminds me of the Bridge on the River Kwai where the commander played by Alec Guinness gets so caught up in building the bridge that he forgets the bigger picture of the war. It's a tragedy, but also a tragedy that Paterno facilitated by his own hubris.

Miss I.
07-23-2012, 11:00 AM
Is there anything dumber than vacating wins? Should they order the erasing of our memories too?

while I understand your argument. The fact that now in the record books it will go down in sports history as wins removed will in fact make it a permanent reminder of what happens to fruit from the poisoned tree. Those wins are are permanently tainted and therefore remove them. Tell me, it would not have been a big deal if the NFL had removed the Patriots Superbowl Victory for being caught up in the spygate thing. It would have sent an actual message about ****ing cheating instead of a half ass one about it which was mainly that the Pats and Belicheck bought their way out of it. They still kept the fruits despite the very likelihood they cheated to win that game. This is worse of course, because they covered up the rape of children to win ****ing titles. I think the penalty is just. At first I was unsure about the scholarship thing, but frankly, who the hell wants to go to Penn state now anyway with its nasty associations. Scholarships might go to other schools now and those who go to Penn State might actually go there for the education until the reputation gets mildly repaired and distanced from what is undeniably a huge taint on their program. I truly think they would've had trouble recruiting now anyway.

TheChamp24
07-23-2012, 11:06 AM
Wow am I glad to see this. And I know some will say that it`s not doing anything for the victims, but it really is because it`s showing how severe this was and how seriously it`s being treated. The legal system will do the rest for the victims.

Part of this read:
``In announcing the penalties, Mark Emmert, the N.C.A.A. president, called the case the most painful “chapter in the history of intercollegiate athletics,” and said it could be argued that the punishment was “greater than any other seen in N.C.A.A. history.” ``

Correct me if I`m wrong, but has there ever been a more severe act in NCAA sports history?

SMU was hit the hardest of anybody ever IMO. They were a pretty solid program, and really doing well in the early '80's.
They had to actually shut down the team/program and from a team that was competing with the big dogs in the '80's, went to cellar dwellers, having only one winning season from the death penalty until 2007.

I really think Penn State will become like SMU, a joke of a football team until someone comes in and innovates their playing style to win a little bit, and attract recruits.

SonOfLe-loLang
07-23-2012, 11:13 AM
while I understand your argument. The fact that now in the record books it will go down in sports history as wins removed will in fact make it a permanent reminder of what happens to fruit from the poisoned tree. Those wins are are permanently tainted and therefore remove them. Tell me, it would not have been a big deal if the NFL had removed the Patriots Superbowl Victory for being caught up in the spygate thing. It would have sent an actual message about ****ing cheating instead of a half ass one about it which was mainly that the Pats and Belicheck bought their way out of it. They still kept the fruits despite the very likelihood they cheated to win that game. This is worse of course, because they covered up the rape of children to win ****ing titles. I think the penalty is just. At first I was unsure about the scholarship thing, but frankly, who the hell wants to go to Penn state now anyway with its nasty associations. Scholarships might go to other schools now and those who go to Penn State might actually go there for the education until the reputation gets mildly repaired and distanced from what is undeniably a huge taint on their program. I truly think they would've had trouble recruiting now anyway.

Yeah, i totally get what youre saying, i just have a heard time wrapping my mind around something symbolic. Asterisks when it comes to sports are odd to me. Also, even though what JoePa did was horrible, his criminal actions had nothing to do with coaching ability. If you wanna put an asterisk next to him calling him a huge a-hole, ok fine, but these are two diff things.

Its a tough situation. I think we all agree SOMETHING needs to be done, i just think punishing a football program doesnt do much in the way of rebuilding, healing, etc.

SouthStndJunkie
07-23-2012, 11:15 AM
Is there anything dumber than vacating wins? Should they order the erasing of our memories too?

I agree 100%.

Those games are all a part of history and you can't erase that, which the NCAA is trying to do.

And my opinion isn't because of the Penn State situation....I don't like it whenever the NCAA vacates wins or Heisman Trophies....history is history and it happened, you shouldn't try and erase what is already history. The Germans can't take Hitler off the books....it happened and it's part of history.

It doesn't matter what the NCAA does....in the grand scheme of things, Joe Paterno still won more football games than any other coach.

You can take it off the record books, but history is history and that's what happened.

Reggie Bush won the Heisman Trophy in 2005....the NCAA took it away, but he played all those games and won the trophy in an award ceremony and then they decided to alter history and take it away, years after the fact.

I don't think any entity should be big and powerful enough to alter the course of what has already been done and is in the books.

Let the general public be the judge and decide for themselves how history should be viewed.

broncocalijohn
07-23-2012, 11:37 AM
There are few crimes more egregious than child rape. Paterno knowingly covered up Sandusky's crimes. His memory should be erased, at least from the record books. In the end, if you don't uphold honor, in some way, then honor becomes meaningless. Paterno traded his honor and now pays the price, even posthumously.

It reminds me of the Bridge on the River Kwai where the commander played by Alec Guinness gets so caught up in building the bridge that he forgets the bigger picture of the war. It's a tragedy, but also a tragedy that Paterno facilitated by his own hubris.

Unlike Jo Pa, we didn't hear those words of (as Alex Guiness speaking), "What have I done? What have I done?!"

Alex saw how caught up he was when one of the sabatogers got shot because of his big mouth. Jo Pa never came out publically and took responsibility. His statement was BS and I just wished he lived long enough to know what the report found out, him seeing the statue come down and the university get hit by major sanctions.

Rohirrim
07-23-2012, 11:51 AM
Unlike Jo Pa, we didn't hear those words of (as Alex Guiness speaking), "What have I done? What have I done?!"

Alex saw how caught up he was when one of the sabatogers got shot because of his big mouth. Jo Pa never came out publically and took responsibility. His statement was BS and I just wished he lived long enough to know what the report found out, him seeing the statue come down and the university get hit by major sanctions.

True. It seems Paterno went to his grave in denial, and his family, sadly enough, is persisting with that.

Pontius Pirate
07-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Deadspin has a good take on it. Net: I wouldn't be surprised if PSU actually took the added step of voluntarily suspending the football program during the penalty years. They aren't going to kill it outright (that stadium is too huge just to leave vacant forever) but as others have mentioned, it's basically going to be a shell of a program for the next couple years anyways so rather than tarnish further with sub-par talent on the field - just shelve the whole thing until the sanctions lift.

boltaneer
07-23-2012, 12:17 PM
Removing the wins might seem not to have a huge impact NOW because everyone involved remembers what happened on the football field during those years but twenty or thirty years from now, it will have much more of an impact. Football and all sports are so heavily impacted by stats. In the big picture, removing Paterno from the top of the list is huge.

That One Guy
07-23-2012, 12:20 PM
This is our chance to all go play college football. Just sign up for a few evening or online classes and we can field a team from the Mane. I want a position that doesn't have to move around much. Maybe punter? Or is that already locked up?

BroncoMan4ever
07-23-2012, 12:52 PM
$60 million. No post-season for four years. Vacating all victories from 1998 to 2011 (which means Paterno is no longer the winningest coach). Also, "Penn State will lose 10 initial scholarships and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-penalties-include-60-million-fine-and-bowl-ban.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw

Good for them. It reminds me of those Catholic bishops sacrificing children to protect the priests and the church. Paterno did the same thing to protect his football program. Now, his statue is gone and his victories are gone. Justice is done. ;D

This is crap. The NCAA should have given the death penalty. The biggest loser in this judgement is a dead guy. Basically the same type of punishment USC got on a bigger scale for recruiting violations and players getting paid. How the NCAA thinks both situations deserve the same punishment is ludicrous

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 12:55 PM
This is crap. The NCAA should have given the death penalty. The biggest loser in this judgement is a dead guy. Basically the same punishment USC got for recruiting violations and players getting paid. How the NCAA thinks both situations deserve the same punishment is ludicrous

You'll never see "the Death Penalty" ever again. It doesn't destroy the offending program. It destroys conferences. I think this was a just and proper reposonse from the NCAA. I am also impressed that without hesitation that PSU accepted the punishment.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2012, 12:57 PM
Plsu the Big 10 has imposed penalties as well. they can't even play for their conference championship for 4 years and no shared bowl money...which tacks on another 20 million over that time.

broncocalijohn
07-23-2012, 01:02 PM
This is our chance to all go play college football. Just sign up for a few evening or online classes and we can field a team from the Mane. I want a position that doesn't have to move around much. Maybe punter? Or is that already locked up?

I think punter is going to be one of the most used positions besides the student trainer that puts the helmet back on the 200 pound linemen.

That One Guy
07-23-2012, 01:25 PM
I think punter is going to be one of the most used positions besides the student trainer that puts the helmet back on the 200 pound linemen.

Good call.

Field goal kicker, it is.

Mountain Bronco
07-23-2012, 01:33 PM
This is a message to other MEN who happen to be leaders of major college athletics programs (Saban, Miles, Kiffin, Brown, Calipari etc...) that if they choose their programs over the greater good on other humans, there programs will be decimated. Turns out that message is warranted (I would have though it was common sense, but it obviously wasn't).

Argue all you want about innocent victims (there are some), but this was necessary. You don't let a dude rape kids in the football program's showers without endangering the program.

**** Penn State, the cover up wasn't as bad as the crime, but it was damn close and that is scary considering the crime.

Mountain Bronco
07-23-2012, 01:39 PM
Also, even though what JoePa did was horrible, his criminal actions had nothing to do with coaching ability. If you wanna put an asterisk next to him calling him a huge a-hole, ok fine, but these are two diff things.

.

My opinion, and it is just that, is that Joe doesn't get to be the leader in wins if this scandal comes out in 1998 or 2002, because it would have impacted him from a coaching standpoint, he wouldn't have been as sharp and the negative impacts back then would have reduce the number of wins he would have had. There would have been sanctions, although minor and it would have affected him negatively for a long time, leading to less wins. Just my theory, but it is as such. Also, do you really want Joe Pa being the leader in wins if you are the NCAA?

TonyR
07-23-2012, 02:03 PM
Deadspin has a good take on it.

Was going to mention the same thing. Worth a read.

http://deadspin.com/5928204/the-ncaa-is-using-penn-state-to-justify-its-own-horrid-existence

Rohirrim
07-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Was going to mention the same thing. Worth a read.

http://deadspin.com/5928204/the-ncaa-is-using-penn-state-to-justify-its-own-horrid-existence

That reads like a drunken rant at the local bar. ;D

ludo21
07-23-2012, 04:22 PM
im with enrolas here. too harsh and just a pile on. The remaining people involved are gone and only the fans and student body is truly effected, nice job NCAA.