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Bronco Rob
06-18-2012, 09:30 AM
Oakland Raiders: Comparing Carson Palmer to Other AFC West QBs




With just 18 days remaining until training camp starts, news of the Oakland Raiders has been scarce. No no player signings, re-signing, cuts or acquisitions whatsoever. It is indeed, the "slow time" in Oakland.

In this dead time, Raider Nation Times has been doing a series of articles called, Know Your Enemy. David Wilson is covering each team in the AFC West as a whole and Jerry Rump has been doing a position by position breakdown of how each team matches up with the Raiders at each spot on the field.

Now, it's time to discuss the most important position on the field, the quarterback.

Much has been made of AFC West quarterbacks recently. If you believe everything the mainstream sports media tells you, Peyton Manning has turned the Broncos into a Super Bowl contender, Philip Rivers is going to magically turn around his dismal performance in 2011 to lead the Chargers to the promised land and Matt Cassel is being considered one of the most under-rated quarterbacks in the league.

Forgotten in all of this is Raiders' signal-caller, Carson Palmer. No one is talking about him, covering him, interviewing him or giving him any chance to lead the Raiders to the playoffs—or even respectability.

Whatever! Since when has Raider Nation given a hoot about what the mainstream media has to say?

Should Raider Nation expect Carson Palmer to get to the Pro Bowl? Maybe, maybe not. Should Raider Nation expect Palmer to throw for 5,000 yards, 50 touchdowns and zero interceptions? Absolutely not. But, can Raider Nation expect Palmer to perform as well as, or even better than the other quarterbacks in the AFC West?

Absolutely!

The Raiders have more offensive talent than every team in the division, more defensive talent than Denver and San Diego, and the Raiders have the most hungry coaches, the hungriest players and the most motivated general manager in the division by a wide margin. Don't think for one second that head coach Dennis Allen or general manager Reggie McKenzie are going to settle for mediocrity from this 2012 Raiders' squad.

The team and coaches have been put on notice that the "Scholarships" are gone and that every player will have to fight for his job. If any of them think McKenzie and Allen are bluffing with this statement, go ask Stanford Routt and Kamerion Wimbley if the "New Era" of Raiders' management are serious or not!



http://raidernationtimes.com/article.php?id=9003

SoCalBronco
06-18-2012, 09:33 AM
How could Tamba Hali be ahead of Von Miller?

Bronco Rob
06-18-2012, 09:43 AM
How could Tamba Hali be ahead of Von Miller?


When the writer of refers to Von Miller as a "gem" might be your first clue.



Just Sayin'

oubronco
06-18-2012, 09:44 AM
How could Tamba Hali be ahead of Von Miller?

I don't know, wierd


I don't know, wierd


:~ohyah!:

Chris
06-18-2012, 09:46 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-p5okakbavns/TwsEp_ZavhI/AAAAAAAAAzg/FFHcH6_fM78/s1600/jem+and+the+holograms.jpg

broncocalijohn
06-18-2012, 09:49 AM
DJ at #4? How bad are the linebackers then for the AFC West?

Rabb
06-18-2012, 09:58 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-p5okakbavns/TwsEp_ZavhI/AAAAAAAAAzg/FFHcH6_fM78/s1600/jem+and+the+holograms.jpg

http://kaist455.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/14-3.jpg

orange crusher
06-18-2012, 11:00 AM
How could Tamba Hali be ahead of Von Miller?

It's Burger Bill, that's how.

Shananahan
06-18-2012, 11:01 AM
Every time I think about Williamson being paid for this stuff I get dizzy and have to lie down.

peacepipe
06-18-2012, 11:06 AM
to play devils advocate,Hali has 27 sacks the last 2 seasons 53.5 for his career so far. Von will be better than Hali by far but miller has only played 1 yr.

Shananahan
06-18-2012, 11:15 AM
Nobody needs to play devil's advocate. There's nothing too ridiculous about Hali being #1, and most of the people here would be shocked and outraged if he were on our team and ranked lower.

I'm not sure he's really a 'true' linebacker like Miller can probably be, but that's where he plays.

gyldenlove
06-18-2012, 11:39 AM
The real question is where on this list would Elvis Dumervil be? 1 or 2?

Kaylore
06-18-2012, 11:41 AM
How could Tamba Hali be ahead of Von Miller?

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/columnists/williamson_bill_m.jpg

pricejj
06-18-2012, 11:59 AM
Looking for the Bronco LB corp to have a great year. These are the guys we are rolling with, so get behind them. GO BRONCOS!!

BroncoMan4ever
06-18-2012, 12:18 PM
DJ at #4? How bad are the linebackers then for the AFC West?

that was my thinking as well. person who made the rankings probably just looked at stats, where DJ has a lot of tackles and thought, "wow this guy is good" but he didn't see that most of those tackles were the result of running ball carriers down after they have already broke off some nice yardage.

Bronco Rob
06-18-2012, 06:38 PM
The real question is where on this list would Elvis Dumervil be? 1 or 2?


He's listed as a DE..

TheReverend
06-18-2012, 06:51 PM
He's listed as a DE..

Right, but he's saying in terms of Tamba. Since Elvis and Tamba play the same spot regardless of 3 pt vs 2 pt stance

KCStud
06-18-2012, 07:01 PM
Tamba has more sacks than any player in the AFC the last 2 years (led AFC in 2010), was very solid against the run last year, and was voted to be the better LB by the players.

Von is going to be the best very soon (maybe this year), but last year as a rookie he got hurt and struggled in the later part of the season and had his own struggles while Tamba has had years to become a productive player.

It's not a bad ranking at all for the preseason. Of course it could very well change next year.

boltaneer
06-19-2012, 02:47 AM
Bill's lists aren't usually as bad as people freak out about but this one is pretty bad.

chrisp
06-19-2012, 04:47 AM
Tamba has more sacks than any player in the AFC the last 2 years (led AFC in 2010), was very solid against the run last year, and was voted to be the better LB by the players.

Von is going to be the best very soon (maybe this year), but last year as a rookie he got hurt and struggled in the later part of the season and had his own struggles while Tamba has had years to become a productive player.

It's not a bad ranking at all for the preseason. Of course it could very well change next year.

Really hate agreeing with a KC fan but I have to say he's right on this one. Van had a stellar rookie year and shows immense potential and upside but if you're ranking the here and now you have to plump for the proven player.

There are plenty of other things to hate about the article though. Does seem like a classic Burger Bill "phoned in from the couch" piece....

Thing is, I find it hard to take Hali seriously due to Bob repeatedly promising he's going to absolutley destroy us, only for that to not actually happen on Sunday....

Drek
06-19-2012, 06:50 AM
Tamba has more sacks than any player in the AFC the last 2 years (led AFC in 2010), was very solid against the run last year, and was voted to be the better LB by the players.
Only because Doom missed 2010 as well as two games in 2011. If you add Doom's '09 and '11 seasons he has as many sacks as Hali, but with two fewer games played.

Von is going to be the best very soon (maybe this year), but last year as a rookie he got hurt and struggled in the later part of the season and had his own struggles while Tamba has had years to become a productive player.
And Hali still isn't nearly as good in coverage or overall run defense as Miller was as a rookie. So if all that matters from a LB is pass rush then Hali has the edge or the time being. But if a LB is expected to be a versatile player then Miller is already a better player.

Hali and Doom are comparable players who just play in different fronts. Miller is an all around more disruptive player than Doom on the same squad.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 08:02 AM
Only because Doom missed 2010 as well as two games in 2011. If you add Doom's '09 and '11 seasons he has as many sacks as Hali, but with two fewer games played.


And Hali still isn't nearly as good in coverage or overall run defense as Miller was as a rookie. So if all that matters from a LB is pass rush then Hali has the edge or the time being. But if a LB is expected to be a versatile player then Miller is already a better player.

Hali and Doom are comparable players who just play in different fronts. Miller is an all around more disruptive player than Doom on the same squad.

I've been involved in several "discussions" on the merits of each team's pass rushers on ChiefsPlanet, and I very much enjoy posting this:

Sacks/game:

White: 0.85
Miller: 0.77
DT: 0.75
Dumervil: 0.70
Strahan: 0.66
Peppers: 0.65
Umenyiora: 0.61
Suggs: 0.59
Hali: 0.56
Houston: 0.34

Obviously the Miller and Houston numbers are subject to change by a lot since they have only played one season.

Kaylore
06-19-2012, 08:42 AM
Miller is about as disruptive as Hali. The difference is Hali is one dimensional (he's basically just a defensive end playing linebacker in 3-4) and he's also as good as he'll ever be (that's not the worst thing). Miller made a lot of mistakes, got injured and was a second all-pro and the DROTY. Mind you this was without any kind of offseason, which hurt the rookies most, and Dennis Allen being a poor developer of young talent (usually tearing players down when they make mistakes, opting to scream and bench them as opposed to teach and encourage.)

I don't think Hali is better than Miller right now. Miller has more range and his game is more complete. What makes the selection stupid is everyone of these lists he's opted to put rookies who were drafted this year and haven't played at all ahead of veterans in the name of "potential" and then when Miller has played a year, clearly showed signs of greatness, he's below Hali for the same reasons.

DENVERDUI55
06-19-2012, 08:56 AM
The AFCW linebackers are pretty weak if Drunken DJ is at 4.

Mountain Bronco
06-19-2012, 10:33 AM
Awesome analysis by burger bill once again. Seriously I am in the wrong profession, if "this is a special player" counts as reporting that gets you paid $$$$$$$$$.

Crushaholic
06-19-2012, 11:21 AM
Tamba Hali is the best player on the Chiefs. I know some Chiefs fans who were panicking about the Hali re-signing delay...

KCStud
06-19-2012, 12:46 PM
Only because Doom missed 2010 as well as two games in 2011. If you add Doom's '09 and '11 seasons he has as many sacks as Hali, but with two fewer games played.


And Hali still isn't nearly as good in coverage or overall run defense as Miller was as a rookie. So if all that matters from a LB is pass rush then Hali has the edge or the time being. But if a LB is expected to be a versatile player then Miller is already a better player.

Hali and Doom are comparable players who just play in different fronts. Miller is an all around more disruptive player than Doom on the same squad.

Tamba doesn't play in coverage in our scheme. That's his biggest flaw and the coaches hide it well by playing in the nickel.

I think Miller is a better all around player right now, but last year he struggled against the run while Tamba was solid. I think Tamba was the better pass rusher and run stopper at the end of last year.

But then again Miller didn't have an offseason, so I fully expect him to be a better all around player right now. I don't know if he's a better pass rusher though. That's pretty close.

cutthemdown
06-19-2012, 03:07 PM
I don't have a problem with Miller not being ranked number 1. He missed games, he was great behind the LOS which got him noticed. All his big plays were sacks, or slicing in and making a nice run stop behind the LOS.

He still has to get better at his angles in the run game when he can't just blow the play up. Sometimes you have to pursue through traffic and make a play, or guard a TE or RB, those things he still can improve on. Then if he does, and still gets sacks, we can say he is one of the best in the NFL.

The good news is pressure on the QB is the most important thing. So if you are going to be a one trick pony, that is a good pony to ride.

KCStud
06-19-2012, 06:27 PM
Hell Justin Houston could be #1 on this list in the future. He was an absolute steal last year.

ZachKC
06-19-2012, 09:48 PM
Nobody needs to play devil's advocate. There's nothing too ridiculous about Hali being #1, and most of the people here would be shocked and outraged if he were on our team and ranked lower.

I'm not sure he's really a 'true' linebacker like Miller can probably be, but that's where he plays.

Yea. Hali is a total beast but he does play a strange hybrid style and calling him a true LB isn't wrong but he is unique.

He is really really strong against the run as well. All over the field.

cutthemdown
06-20-2012, 03:33 AM
Skipping to dbacks I think Broncos secondary coupled with Doom and Miller is all we need to make big plays of defense. Tracy Porter has way more speed at his age 25, then Goodman had last 3 yrs. He can play zone and man to man and is a good solid tackler. Bailey is still one of the best in the NFL. Harris looks like he can play some and Florence decent for depth. Adams at safety is a good move. Steady player that won't make mistakes. If Moore or Carter can improve the Broncos would have a really solid secondary. Good coverage, good pass rush, can maybe make up for avg dt rotation IMO.

Bronco Rob
06-20-2012, 11:22 AM
Skipping to dbacks I think Broncos secondary coupled with Doom and Miller is all we need to make big plays of defense. Tracy Porter has way more speed at his age 25, then Goodman had last 3 yrs. He can play zone and man to man and is a good solid tackler. Bailey is still one of the best in the NFL. Harris looks like he can play some and Florence decent for depth. Adams at safety is a good move. Steady player that won't make mistakes. If Moore or Carter can improve the Broncos would have a really solid secondary. Good coverage, good pass rush, can maybe make up for avg dt rotation IMO.



Not to mention the addition of Jack Del Rio and playing with an acutal lead.

Doggcow
06-20-2012, 12:27 PM
I'd argue Miller is the best OLB in the league, this list is crap.

JJG
06-20-2012, 12:51 PM
I'd argue Miller is the best OLB in the league, this list is crap.

maybe we should wait more than one year before crowning him. He's on the way, but not there yet

cutthemdown
06-20-2012, 02:08 PM
I feel good about agreeing Miller goes on to be mentioned with the very best linebackers. The other players seem to gush about his ability to get to the quarterback. He's a special player I think. Hali a fine player but I think Miller soars above him eventually.

KCStud
06-20-2012, 02:51 PM
I'd argue Miller is the best OLB in the league, this list is crap.

It can be argued that Von Miller isn't even the best OLB in his own draft class.

Kaylore
06-20-2012, 02:59 PM
It can be argued that Von Miller isn't even the best OLB in his own draft class.

:~ohyah!: lemme guess! The real one is on the Chiefs!

KCStud
06-20-2012, 03:05 PM
:~ohyah!: lemme guess! The real one is on the Chiefs!

Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan.

DENVERDUI55
06-20-2012, 03:15 PM
Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan.

Now that is comical. Kerrigan and Houston really? You could make an argument right now for Smith but the other two? I wouldn't expect anything else from you though.

KCStud
06-20-2012, 03:24 PM
Now that is comical. Kerrigan and Houston really? You could make an argument right now for Smith but the other two? I wouldn't expect anything else from you though.

Houston started in the 2nd half of the season and tore it up. Let's see how he compared to Von's 2nd half.

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

Looks pretty similar to me, except Houston is a better run defender. Von had 41 run stops last year starting 15 games. Houston had 32 run stops starting 10.

Houston was also 4th in the NFL drawing 6 holding penalties.

But you guys are right. Houston couldn't hold Von's jock. :giggle:

Hercules Rockefeller
06-20-2012, 03:30 PM
Von missed a game and played with a club on his right hand because of injury and still out performed Houston during that stretch. Try again troll.

R-Mac
06-20-2012, 03:31 PM
Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan.

Von Miller: 64 tackles, 50 solo, 21 TFL, 11.5 sacks, 4 PDef, 2 FF

Justin Houston: 56 tackles, 46 solo, 10 TFL, 5.5 sacks, 4 PDef, 1 FF

Aldon Smith: 37 tackles, 31 solo, 15 TFL, 14 sacks, 4 PDef, 2 FF

Ryan Kerrigan: 63 tackles, 41 solo, 9 TFL, 7.5 sacks, 4 PDef, 1 Int, 4 FF

The only player here that can challenge Miller as a complete OLB is Kerrigan, and he is 4 sacks behind Miller.

Miller is 6 sacks ahead of Houston, and has 2x more tackles for loss.

Smith was a pass rusher, 2.5 sacks ahead of Miller, but with 27 less tackles and 19 less solo tackles.

Miller made an impact against the run and the pass, with different responsibilities on 1st, 2nd and 3rd down. Smith was more productive as a pass rusher, but he started zero games and was not a complete OLB like Von Miller.

I don't know why Von Miller would not be the best OLB in his draft class so far.

Link to TFL:

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/defense-tackles-for-loss

KCStud
06-20-2012, 03:35 PM
Some of you need to realize that Von needs work on his run defending. There's more to being an OLB then racking up sacks.

R-Mac
06-20-2012, 03:38 PM
Some of you need to realize that Von needs work on his run defending. There's more to being an OLB then racking up sacks.

Besides racking up sacks, Miller led all rookies in tackles for loss.

Actually, he was 3rd in the NFL in TFL with 21, behind JPP and Ware (both with 26).

Bronco Rob
06-20-2012, 03:38 PM
Some of you need to realize that Von needs work on his run defending. There's more to being an OLB then racking up sacks.


Just ask DT (Doesn't Tackle) derrick thomas about that....



:thumbs:

KCStud
06-20-2012, 03:51 PM
Just ask DT (Doesn't Tackle) derrick thomas about that....



:thumbs:

Von will never be able to hold DT's jock, so don't even start with that baloney.

JJG
06-20-2012, 04:00 PM
Von will never be able to hold DT's jock, so don't even start with that baloney.

in what way?
rushing the passer?
coverage?
stopping the run?

KCStud
06-20-2012, 04:02 PM
in what way?
rushing the passer?
coverage?
stopping the run?

This

Bronco Rob
06-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Von will never be able to hold DT's jock, so don't even start with that baloney.




dt had 601 career tackles and one interception.

No worries..


Derrick Thomas didn't play the run or the pass.

He was surrounded by talented players and focal point of the defenses in Kansas City.

He has 601 career tackles.

He has 1 I repeat 1 career interception.

He only led the NFL in sacks once. (1990)

In the biggest game of his career (a drubbing by the Bills) he was on the bench.

He never took his team to the next level. (3 career playoff victories)

DENVERDUI55
06-20-2012, 06:39 PM
Houston started in the 2nd half of the season and tore it up. Let's see how he compared to Von's 2nd half.

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

Looks pretty similar to me, except Houston is a better run defender. Von had 41 run stops last year starting 15 games. Houston had 32 run stops starting 10.

Houston was also 4th in the NFL drawing 6 holding penalties.

But you guys are right. Houston couldn't hold Von's jock. :giggle:

So you cherry pick stats where Miller was injured? Typical chiefs fan using stats to argue. Houston was getting zero double teams where Miller faced double teams and was on one hand and still effective. Yeah Dumervil had strong finish of the year when Miller was getting double teamed. How much was Houston getting mentioned in DROTY?

DENVERDUI55
06-20-2012, 06:39 PM
in what way?
rushing the passer?
coverage?
stopping the run?

Out of wedlock children.

fdf
06-20-2012, 08:32 PM
Nobody needs to play devil's advocate. There's nothing too ridiculous about Hali being #1, and most of the people here would be shocked and outraged if he were on our team and ranked lower.

I'm not sure he's really a 'true' linebacker like Miller can probably be, but that's where he plays.

How many people would trade Miller for Hali straight up? I bet Hali's GM would in a heartbeat.

KCStud
06-20-2012, 08:53 PM
dt had 601 career tackles and one interception.

No worries..


Derrick Thomas didn't play the run or the pass.

He was surrounded by talented players and focal point of the defenses in Kansas City.

He has 601 career tackles.

He has 1 I repeat 1 career interception.

He only led the NFL in sacks once. (1990)

In the biggest game of his career (a drubbing by the Bills) he was on the bench.

He never took his team to the next level. (3 career playoff victories)

How can he take a team to the next level? So he's a QB now? Are you really this stupid?

DT had more sacks than any player in the 90's with 116.5.

He holds the record for sacks in a game with 7, a record that many think will never be broken.

When he died, he was in the top 10 in all-time sacks and 3rd in LB's only behind Lawrence Taylor and Kevin Greene
He was also less than 10 sacks from passing LT on the all-time list, something he would have done had he not died.

God you're a clown. DT, Greene, and LT are the best pass rushing LB's in NFL history.

KCStud
06-20-2012, 09:05 PM
So you cherry pick stats where Miller was injured? Typical chiefs fan using stats to argue. Houston was getting zero double teams where Miller faced double teams and was on one hand and still effective. Yeah Dumervil had strong finish of the year when Miller was getting double teamed. How much was Houston getting mentioned in DROTY?

Houston struggled in the first half of the season. Doesn't mean he isn't going to be a good player.
And a lot of Von's sacks came from teams focusing more on Dumervil in the first half of the season. Way to not bring that up.

R-Mac
06-20-2012, 09:12 PM
Houston struggled in the first half of the season. Doesn't mean he isn't going to be a good player.
And a lot of Von's sacks came from teams focusing more on Dumervil in the first half of the season. Way to not bring that up.

Dumervil was playing injured in the first half of the season.

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/3941/elvis-dumervil

Broncos RE Elvis Dumervil has yet to record a sack this season.

Dumervil has been active for only five games with nagging shoulder and ankle injuries that have impacted his ability to get to the corner with his signature up-and-under move. Dumervil will look to get on the board against Raiders left tackle Jared Veldheer this week.

And I believe teams focused more on Tamba Hali when Justin Houston got his sacks. You should have brought that up.

crazyhorse
06-21-2012, 05:36 AM
KC is probably or has in the past, probably been Von Millers favorite team. I know for a fact DT was his favorite player growing up. Its funny you trash DT when talking of Miller when Miller has always dreamed of one day being the next Derrick Thomas.

BMarsh615
06-21-2012, 05:51 AM
KC is probably or has in the past, probably been Von Millers favorite team. I know for a fact DT was his favorite player growing up. Its funny you trash DT when talking of Miller when Miller has always dreamed of one day being the next Derrick Thomas.

His favorite team was the Cowboys. One of DT's college coaches was at Texas A&M with Von and mentioned to him that he rushed the passer exactly like DT did. That is when Von dug up some old film of DT and noticed the similarities between his game and DT's.

crazyhorse
06-21-2012, 06:06 AM
His favorite team was the Cowboys. One of DT's college coaches was at Texas A&M with Von and mentioned to him that he rushed the passer exactly like DT did. That is when Von dug up some old film of DT and noticed the similarities between his game and DT's.

He said at the draft his favorite player growing up was DT. I assumed from that KC was his favorite team. But his favorite player according to him is DT

Bronco Rob
06-21-2012, 08:45 AM
DT had more sacks than any player in the 90's with 116.5..

What were his postseason stats and why didn't he start in the biggest game of his career?...*hint* the 1992 AFC Championship game.



He holds the record for sacks in a game with 7, a record that many think will never be broken.

Who won that game?

What happened on the final play?

http://davekriegsstrikebeard.blogspot.com/2009/08/november-11-1990.html



When he died, he was in the top 10 in all-time sacks and 3rd in LB's only behind Lawrence Taylor and Kevin Greene
He was also less than 10 sacks from passing LT on the all-time list, something he would have done had he not died.


Ever heard of Rickey Jackson? - 128 sacks.

He wasn't a linebacker he was a one dimensional pass rusher who had entire defenses bulit around him. He padded his stats against lesser opponents and the majority of his sacks were at Sparrowhead.



:thumbs:

crazyhorse
06-21-2012, 09:48 AM
What were his postseason stats and why didn't he start in the biggest game of his career?...*hint* the 1992 AFC Championship game.





Who won that game?

What happened on the final play?

http://davekriegsstrikebeard.blogspot.com/2009/08/november-11-1990.html






Ever heard of Rickey Jackson? - 128 sacks.

He wasn't a linebacker he was a one dimensional pass rusher who had entire defenses bulit around him. He padded his stats against lesser opponents and the majority of his sacks were at Sparrowhead.



:thumbs:

You have obviously not experienced the rivalry in the 90s by watching. Any clear thinking person could see instantly the effect DT had in the game.

Trying to dismiss 7 sacks by asking who won is for those that struggle with logic. Its the record. Followed by not one but two 6 sack games by the end of his carreer. No one has come close. Including your boy Miller.

If DT played today he would be the best defender in the west. Bar None.

And ask Elway if he can tackle.

R-Mac
06-21-2012, 09:55 AM
He said at the draft his favorite player growing up was DT. I assumed from that KC was his favorite team. But his favorite player according to him is DT

Miller before the draft:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d81f89f98/Von-Miller-I-want-to-be-a-Cowboy

kappys
06-21-2012, 11:39 AM
What a ludicrous thread.

I am thrilled with Von Miller and would take him over Hali without a doubt because I think his potential is similar to Derrick Thomas. If you are potentially as good as an NFL great that means you aren't there yet(or even close).

crazyhorse
06-21-2012, 11:57 AM
Miller before the draft:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d81f89f98/Von-Miller-I-want-to-be-a-Cowboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suIY53k7dQw&feature=player_detailpage

R-Mac
06-21-2012, 12:08 PM
Miller grew up in Dallas as a big Cowboys fan.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20110309-von-miller-bummed-out_after-trying-to-meet-with-cowboys.ece

"I always saw myself with a blue star on the side of my helmet,” Miller said. “Growing up in Dallas, all my life I've never ever lived anywhere else. So of course I'm a big Cowboys fan. Our game room at my house is fully dedicated to the Cowboys. From Roger Staubach to Troy Aikman to Emmitt Smith to Michael Irvin, all those guys. We've got a Ring of Honor just in our game room at home."

As for how he would feel if Jerry Jones made him the Cowboys' top pick, Miller said: "It'd be a true blessing. It'd really be a dream come true by playing in the NFL and playing for the team that I always dreamed of playing for. It'd really be a true blessing to go home and play in Dallas and play in [Cowboys] Stadium. It'd be a dream come true, I'd probably pass out, you know."

fdf
06-21-2012, 12:09 PM
What a ludicrous thread.

I am thrilled with Von Miller and would take him over Hali without a doubt because I think his potential is similar to Derrick Thomas. If you are potentially as good as an NFL great that means you aren't there yet(or even close).

If Denver and KC both knew what they know now and had to pick between the two, both teams would select Miller, IMO. It's a big duh. Hali's a fine player. I'd like to have both on the Broncos. But Miller will be first vote HOF, assuming he doesn't have a career ending injury. He's that good.

Shananahan
06-21-2012, 12:26 PM
There probably won't even be a vote when Miller gets into the HOF; it will just happen.

I'm kinda surprised it hasn't already.

KCStud
06-21-2012, 01:28 PM
What were his postseason stats and why didn't he start in the biggest game of his career?...*hint* the 1992 AFC Championship game.





Who won that game?

What happened on the final play?

http://davekriegsstrikebeard.blogspot.com/2009/08/november-11-1990.html






Ever heard of Rickey Jackson? - 128 sacks.

He wasn't a linebacker he was a one dimensional pass rusher who had entire defenses bulit around him. He padded his stats against lesser opponents and the majority of his sacks were at Sparrowhead.



:thumbs:

So by your same thinking, Champ Bailey should NEVER be mentioned in the same breath as Ty Law, Deon Sanders, Charles Woodson, Ronde Barber, Darrell Green, or Rod Woodson simply because he hasn't had postseason success?

Got it.

JLesSPE
06-21-2012, 02:12 PM
I don't understand the argument. Von is young and has amazing potential. DT was one of the best to ever play and he died way too young. You can't compare the two as far as greatness goes because Von has played 1 year. Give DT the respect he deserves. I hated the crap out of that guy but absolutely respected his ability. This is a pointless discussion.

KCStud
06-21-2012, 02:16 PM
I don't understand the argument. Von is young and has amazing potential. DT was one of the best to ever play and he died way too young. You can't compare the two as far as greatness goes because Von has played 1 year. Give DT the respect he deserves. I hated the crap out of that guy but absolutely respected his ability. This is a pointless discussion.

Great post. Chiefs fans feel the same way about Elway.

Requiem
06-21-2012, 02:40 PM
Why are we bringing up a football player from a rival team who has been dead since Desert Storm I? WGAF.

Kaylore
06-21-2012, 02:50 PM
KCStud just had his trash handed to him.

KCStud: Justin Houston is better! Look at his stats compared to the games Miller missed to injury and played with one hand!

Everyone: Lol wut?

Sheepstud: Welll...um...there's more to playing football than just sacks! He better shape up!

Everyone: He led all rookies in tackles for a loss and finished third in the NFL.

Sheepstud: Well...um...uh....He's no Derrick Thomas!

Me: He probably knows how to put on a condom, so you're right about that!

KCStud
06-21-2012, 03:04 PM
KCStud just had his trash handed to him.

KCStud: Justin Houston is better! Look at his stats compared to the games Miller missed to injury and played with one hand!

Everyone: Lol wut?

Sheepstud: Welll...um...there's more to playing football than just sacks! He better shape up!

Everyone: He led all rookies in tackles for a loss and finished third in the NFL.

Sheepstud: Well...um...uh....He's no Derrick Thomas!

Me: He probably knows how to put on a condom, so you're right about that!

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=76195

I'll wait and see who they replace Herm with before I start worrying. We have our GM and Coach and we're just fine.


Kaylore-We're fine with McD and Xanders. They're gonna do great things here.

Now-..........

<a href="http://www.gifbin.com/981538"><img src="http://gifs.gifbin.com/4mceko5.gif" alt="funny gifs" /></a>

Kaylore
06-21-2012, 03:20 PM
Nice failed Gif posting coupled with a change of subject to a three year old post. Solid response to your own idiocy that is hours old, sheepstud.

KCStud
06-21-2012, 03:37 PM
Stud found proof of me looking like an ass hat and I have nothing to say but to try to make fun of his gif and ignore my own false statement.

Sums it up Gaylore.

R-Mac
06-21-2012, 04:10 PM
So, a discussion about AFC West LBs turned into smack talk involving McDaniels and Xanders. I guess we won.

DENVERDUI55
06-21-2012, 04:12 PM
Houston struggled in the first half of the season. Doesn't mean he isn't going to be a good player.
And a lot of Von's sacks came from teams focusing more on Dumervil in the first half of the season. Way to not bring that up.

God you make it way too easy. Ok I never said he wasn't a good player but I'm not the one saying he is better than Miller. Second you just proved that you watched zero Bronco games last year and just throw crap and hope it sticks to try and back up your garbage posts and claims. Did Von's sacks come from the attention Dumervil was getting on his bad shoulder and ankle or was it the attention in the games he didn't play? You have no clue what you are talking about.

KCStud
06-21-2012, 05:52 PM
God you make it way too easy. Ok I never said he wasn't a good player but I'm not the one saying he is better than Miller. Second you just proved that you watched zero Bronco games last year and just throw crap and hope it sticks to try and back up your garbage posts and claims. Did Von's sacks come from the attention Dumervil was getting on his bad shoulder and ankle or was it the attention in the games he didn't play? You have no clue what you are talking about.

Never said Houston was better than Von. Try again.

DENVERDUI55
06-21-2012, 07:41 PM
Never said Houston was better than Von. Try again


It can be argued that Von Miller isn't even the best OLB in his own draft class.



Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan
.

OK what were those comments then? You need to go back and read the garbage you post.

KCStud
06-21-2012, 08:48 PM
OK what were those comments then? You need to go back and read the garbage you post.

It can be argued that they are better. Never said they were clearly better than Von.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. The point was that Von isn't the clear-cut best OLB in the league, or even his class. Those players aren't far behind Von and could very well be better than Von.

Broncos4Life
06-21-2012, 10:32 PM
KCStud just had his trash handed to him.

KCStud: Justin Houston is better! Look at his stats compared to the games Miller missed to injury and played with one hand!

Everyone: Lol wut?

Sheepstud: Welll...um...there's more to playing football than just sacks! He better shape up!

Everyone: He led all rookies in tackles for a loss and finished third in the NFL.

Sheepstud: Well...um...uh....He's no Derrick Thomas!

Me: He probably knows how to put on a condom, so you're right about that!

:rofl:

Kaylore
06-21-2012, 11:00 PM
It can be argued that they are better. Never said they were clearly better than Von.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. The point was that Von isn't the clear-cut best OLB in the league, or even his class. Those players aren't far behind Von and could very well be better than Von.

Everything you type is wrong.

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 03:07 AM
So by your same thinking, Champ Bailey should NEVER be mentioned in the same breath as Ty Law, Deon Sanders, Charles Woodson, Ronde Barber, Darrell Green, or Rod Woodson simply because he hasn't had postseason success?

Got it.


Nice use of pretzel logic. Champ Bailey has been on teams that actually won in the playoffs AND had an impact on the games outcome unlike derrick Houdini thomas who would disappeared in big games.

Now answer the question...what happened in the biggest game of his entire career?


???

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 03:07 AM
You have obviously not experienced the rivalry in the 90s by watching. Any clear thinking person could see instantly the effect DT had in the game.

Trying to dismiss 7 sacks by asking who won is for those that struggle with logic. Its the record. Followed by not one but two 6 sack games by the end of his carreer. No one has come close. Including your boy Miller.

If DT played today he would be the best defender in the west. Bar None.

And ask Elway if he can tackle.



I've been to more chef games than you have...believe that and I worked out at the same Gold's gym as DT. He rented one of the clubs I was working at for his celebrity golf tournament after party also worked at the club where the Derrick Thomas & Neil Smith radio show was broadcast from. We went to the same nightclubs and knew the same people ran in same circles. So spare me fan boy...

The reason I brought up the seven sack game is because it encapsulates his entire career...alot of empty sacks with nothing to show for it. Now... answer the question..what happened on the last play of the game..

As time expired, Seattle's Dave Krieg wriggled free of Thomas and heaved a desperation 25-yard touchdown pass to Paul Skansi in the end zone. Norm Johnson booted the extra point to give the Seahawks a 17-16 victory over the stunned Kansas City Chiefs.

"I thought I had him," said Thomas, a linebacker who won the A.F.C. defensive Rookie of the Year award last season. "He just stumbled back and caught his balance and threw the pass. That last sack I didn't get is the one I'm going to remember."


http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/12/sports/thomas-of-chiefs-gets-7-sacks.html


If dt played today he would be Tamba Hali with a hangover.




:thumbs:

crazyhorse
06-22-2012, 04:41 AM
I've been to more chef games than you have...believe that and I worked out at the same Gold's gym as DT. He rented one of the clubs I was working at for his celebrity golf tournament after party also worked at the club where the Derrick Thomas & Neil Smith radio show was broadcast from. We went to the same nightclubs and knew the same people ran in same circles. So spare me fan boy...

The reason I brought up the seven sack game is because it encapsulates his entire career...alot of empty sacks with nothing to show for it. Now... answer the question..what happened on the last play of the game..




http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/12/sports/thomas-of-chiefs-gets-7-sacks.html


If dt played today he would be Tamba Hali with a hangover.




:thumbs:

Nothing to show? He is a HOFer

You may get a few laughs, but little respect with football takes like that. Further, to demand I owe you an answer of some sort are delusions of granduer. If you want to post something about DTs game...post it.

Ask Elway who was the best defender he ever faced. There you'll get your true answer. What you offer is empty cracks in grade school quality smack.

Have a gteat day. We will just have to disagree on this one.

Tombstone RJ
06-22-2012, 08:25 AM
Nothing to show? He is a HOFer

You may get a few laughs, but little respect with football takes like that. Further, to demand I owe you an answer of some sort are delusions of granduer. If you want to post something about DTs game...post it.

Ask Elway who was the best defender he ever faced. There you'll get your true answer. What you offer is empty cracks in grade school quality smack.

Have a gteat day. We will just have to disagree on this one.

I think he meant DT's numbers didn't help kc win any meaningful games.

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 10:33 AM
Nothing to show? He is a HOFer

You may get a few laughs, but little respect with football takes like that. Further, to demand I owe you an answer of some sort are delusions of granduer. If you want to post something about DTs game...post it.
Ask Elway who was the best defender he ever faced. There you'll get your true answer. What you offer is empty cracks in grade school quality smack.

Have a gteat day. We will just have to disagree on this one.*



*Unilateral disarmament.....translation "I can't answer any of the questions"

:thumbs:



That's the point..look at all the other pass rush specialist enshrined in Canton. They didn't disappear in big games, your weak attempts to deflect to conversation speaks volumes.

All chef fan says is kc was winningest team in the nineties yet glosses over their 3-7 post season record (during dt's tenure) who's "best player" vanished like a fart in the wind come the playoffs.

Bottomline his best games happened at Sparrowhead (due to the crowd noise) and during the regular season...That's not Canton-worthy.



:thanku:

crazyhorse
06-22-2012, 10:48 AM
I think he meant DT's numbers didn't help kc win any meaningful games.

That reflects the team more than the player. Its the illogical nonsense you see on BBs all the time. It really has to do with nothing.

The original point I made was that DT was Millers favorite player growing up. Instead of debating the point (which no one can) they deflect.

A person would look more intelligent to say nothing than to go on about how Millers favorite player and HOFer was no good or disapeared in games.

Fact is, most of what he's saying isnt true.

Besides, I thought all games were meaningful. You better hope the players dont take the "meaningless games" posture you guys do. Tell Manning to look at the schedule and determine which games are meaningless.

Surely by not winning the SB last season you're not saying the Broncos season was meaningless?

crazyhorse
06-22-2012, 10:55 AM
*Unilateral disarmament.....translation "I can't answer any of the questions"

:thumbs:



That's the point..look at all the other pass rush specialist enshrined in Canton. They didn't disappear in big games, your weak attempts to deflect to conversation speaks volumes.

All chef fan says is kc was winningest team in the nineties yet glosses over their 3-7 post season record (during dt's tenure) who's "best player" vanished like a fart in the wind come the playoffs.

Bottomline his best games happened at Sparrowhead (due to the crowd noise) and during the regular season...That's not Canton-worthy.



:thanku:

The original question you're responding to was mine. You are deflecting. I simply could care less about your arguement based in BS.

This just in. He was in fact Canton worthy.

You know who aint done **** in this league? Von Miller. He may someday match DTs carreer. But I doubt it.

Shananahan
06-22-2012, 11:08 AM
This thread drove off the road and became paralyzed as soon as you guys started arguing with Chiefs fans. It's dead now, let it go.

WolfpackGuy
06-22-2012, 11:19 AM
It had to have bugged Thomas to see Neil Smith win two rings as a Bronco especially since it was Thomas' new contract that signaled the end of Smith's career in KC.

KCStud
06-22-2012, 11:32 AM
Nice use of pretzel logic. Champ Bailey has been on teams that actually won in the playoffs AND had an impact on the games outcome unlike derrick Houdini thomas who would disappeared in big games.

Now answer the question...what happened in the biggest game of his entire career?


???

DT has been on teams that have won in the playoffs too. He was there in the early 90's with Montana. In fact, DT has MORE playoff wins than Champ as of right now, so there goes your "pretzel logic".

And how about Champ disappearing when Peyton Manning threw 5 TD's and steamrolled you in 2003 to at 41-10 beatdown? Or how about Tom Brady doing the same in January? Where was Champ?

Oh that's right, he had a terrible game, just like his TEAM did, so don't even pull that garbage.

Your own logic shuts you up again.

KCStud
06-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Bottomline his best games happened at Sparrowhead (due to the crowd noise) and during the regular season...That's not Canton-worthy.



:thanku:

That's what made Arrowhead one of the most feared places to play in the 90's and made him such a good player. For someone who lives in KC, you sure have no idea about the team.

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 08:14 PM
DT has been on teams that have won in the playoffs too. He was there in the early 90's with Montana. In fact, DT has MORE playoff wins than Champ as of right now, so there goes your "pretzel logic".

And how about Champ disappearing when Peyton Manning threw 5 TD's and steamrolled you in 2003 to at 41-10 beatdown? Or how about Tom Brady doing the same in January? Where was Champ?

Oh that's right, he had a terrible game, just like his TEAM did, so don't even pull that garbage.

Your own logic shuts you up again.


Last time I checked Champ Bailey started in all his playoff appearances unlike derrick thomas and he also showed up on the stat sheet unlike derrick thomas.

Champ has never had an entire defense bulit around him (I guess you don't remember the "FALCON" position) Nice try but you still can't answer these simple questions..


1.) Where was he in the biggest game of his career?
2.) Why did he disappear in the postseason?
3.) Why did the chefs lose the "epic" seven sack game?


Answer those and you'll understand...

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 08:14 PM
The original question you're responding to was mine. You are deflecting. I simply could care less about your arguement based in BS.

This just in. He was in fact Canton worthy.

You know who aint done **** in this league? Von Miller. He may someday match DTs carreer. But I doubt it.


Apparently a paint by numbers template must be employed.

Why didn't derrick thomas start in the 1993 AFC Championship game?

Why did the chefs lose derrick thomas's seven sack game.

Why did he disappear in the playoffs.

Thanks in advance!

KCStud
06-22-2012, 08:31 PM
Last time I checked Champ Bailey started in all his playoff appearances unlike derrick thomas and he also showed up on the stat sheet unlike derrick thomas.

Champ has never had an entire defense bulit around him (I guess you don't remember the "FALCON" position) Nice try but you still can't answer these simple questions..


1.) Where was he in the biggest game of his career?
2.) Why did he disappear in the postseason?
3.) Why did the chefs lose the "epic" seven sack game?


Answer those and you'll understand...

So Champ gets a pass for not having a better team built around him, but yet DT doesn't get a pass when his offense never helped the defense out. Got it.

And you blaming the Seattle loss on DT is so amazingly laughable considering what he did.

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 08:35 PM
So Champ gets a pass for not having a better team built around him, but yet DT doesn't get a pass when his offense never helped the defense out. Got it.

Good enough to play in ten postseason games.



And you blaming the Seattle loss on DT is so amazingly laughable considering what he did.

What happened on the last play of the game?



???

KCStud
06-22-2012, 08:41 PM
Good enough to play in ten postseason games.





What happened on the last play of the game?



???

What happened to Champ in January? You would think the best CB in the league would have stopped Tom Brady from throwing 5 TD's in the first half. Looks like he "disappeared"

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 08:57 PM
What happened to Champ in January? You would think the best CB in the league would have stopped Tom Brady from throwing 5 TD's in the first half. Looks like he "disappeared"


Allow me to apolgize my overestimation of your ability to comprehend is an error.

I was at that game and know what happened on the last play and it's impact on the outcome.

Riddle me this...If holding the record for the number of sacks in a game is such a big deal why did that TEAM lose the game?

*SIGH* it goes to show how insignificant that record really is in regards to a team sport.

Look at all the other single game records and how they how they affected the outcome of games.

Hope that helps!

KCStud
06-22-2012, 09:06 PM
Allow me to apolgize my overestimation of your ability to comprehend is an error.

I was at that game and know what happened on the last play and it's impact on the outcome.

Riddle me this...If holding the record for the number of sacks in a game is such a big deal why did that TEAM lose the game?

*SIGH* it goes to show how insignificant that record really is in regards to a team sport.

Look at all the other single game records and how they how they affected the outcome of games.

Hope that helps!

Yeah it sure is insignificant. It's so insignificant, that it's written in Canton for no reason. Try again, clown. Hilarious!

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 09:10 PM
Yeah it sure is insignificant. It's so insignificant, that it's written in Canton for no reason. Try again, clown. Hilarious!


So the game is played to obtain records and not for victories. Glynn Milburn made into Canton for a single game record that his team also lost. The only difference is you don't see Bronco fans thumping their chests about it.

KCStud
06-22-2012, 09:17 PM
So the game is played to obtain records and not for victories. Glynn Milburn made into Canton for a single game record that his team also lost. The only difference is you don't see Bronco fans thumping their chests about it.

The game is played to win, and blaming a loss on a guy that had 7 sacks is laughable. Clearly you don't understand the concept of "team".
You win as a team and lose as a team.

Love how you don't put any blame on the DB's for giving up the 35 yard TD catch when the WR was double-teamed, or how you don't give any blame to the offense for a terrible performance.

Nope. It's all DT's fault they lost. Clown Hilarious!

Bronco Rob
06-22-2012, 09:27 PM
. Nope. It's all DT's fault they lost. Clown Hilarious!

Thank you! Very proud of ya! By the time we are through you might just understand what a fraud dt was!

Instead of making the correct read he went after as always cared only about one thing...himself....

Now on to the next chapter...Why didn't he start in the 1993 AFC Championship game?

lonestar
06-22-2012, 10:00 PM
Thank you! Very proud of ya! By the time we are through you might just understand what a fraud dt was!

Instead of making the correct read he went after as always cared only about one thing...himself....

Now on to the next chapter...Why didn't he start in the 1993 AFC Championship game?

While I do not remember loads of DT's games and know that he was not a great human being.. I do know that the son of a gun caused us loads of fits..

I do remember one game that Sharpe got inside his skull so bad the coach had to set him on the Bench because of all the penalties called on him..

I'd take DT any day over any of our LB's save Miller..

But keep up the debate I'd love to see the answers to the questions you posed.. I doubt they will be answered..

KCStud
06-22-2012, 10:23 PM
Thank you! Very proud of ya! By the time we are through you might just understand what a fraud dt was!

Instead of making the correct read he went after as always cared only about one thing...himself....

Now on to the next chapter...Why didn't he start in the 1993 AFC Championship game?

Cared about only himself huh?

How about this? http://thirdandlong.org/

Sure looks like he cared about only himself huh?
Only you would say a HOF is a fraud. Clown.Hilarious!

crazyhorse
06-23-2012, 12:55 PM
Thank you! Very proud of ya! By the time we are through you might just understand what a fraud dt was!

Instead of making the correct read he went after as always cared only about one thing...himself....

Now on to the next chapter...Why didn't he start in the 1993 AFC Championship game?

That fraud (lol) is Millers favorite player. Funny how over the top you're willing to go to make Von Miller look like a fool. To insult DT fans is to insult Miller. Besides, I'd take Millers idea of what it takes to play LBer before I would yours. Not because you look foolish here, but because he has had success at it while you have not. You know....the Pro Football Hall of Fame and such.

Unless you're going to surprize the hell out of me and prove you were once a pro football player. No, if I had to guess I would guess you were a boxer. That would explain several of these posts.

DENVERDUI55
06-23-2012, 01:42 PM
DT was a great player no denying that.

lonestar
06-23-2012, 02:33 PM
Cared about only himself huh?

How about this? http://thirdandlong.org/

Sure looks like he cared about only himself huh?
Only you would say a HOF is a fraud. Clown.Hilarious!

NOt sure that being an off the field humanitarian is something the HOF makes a requirement..

Pretty sure that they look at the stats of the man as pretty much their main criteria..


Besides DT did pad his stats a lot also..

I disliked the guy because he caused us fits, and as I said before would have loved to have him playing in DEN instead..

But he was not a great human being as you suggest.. Had negatives off the field and maybe even in the locker room. I can't speak to that, but generally if you're a prick outside work some of it rubs off at work and vice versa,,

Shananahan
06-23-2012, 02:35 PM
How does a linebacker pad his stats?

lonestar
06-23-2012, 02:35 PM
That fraud (lol) is Millers favorite player. Funny how over the top you're willing to go to make Von Miller look like a fool. To insult DT fans is to insult Miller. Besides, I'd take Millers idea of what it takes to play LBer before I would yours. Not because you look foolish here, but because he has had success at it while you have not. You know....the Pro Football Hall of Fame and such.

Unless you're going to surprize the hell out of me and prove you were once a pro football player. No, if I had to guess I would guess you were a boxer. That would explain several of these posts.

Players look at the stats and the film of what others do. In Millers case I suspect that is the reason he wanted to be like him.. I also suspect that someone told him at one time or another he "played like DT".. therefore put in film study to further emulate him..

Pendejo
06-23-2012, 02:46 PM
How does a linebacker pad his stats?

By smashing quarterbacks. A lot-lot.

crazyhorse
06-23-2012, 03:08 PM
NOt sure that being an off the field humanitarian is something the HOF makes a requirement..

Pretty sure that they look at the stats of the man as pretty much their main criteria..


Besides DT did pad his stats a lot also..

I disliked the guy because he caused us fits, and as I said before would have loved to have him playing in DEN instead..

But he was not a great human being as you suggest.. Had negatives off the field and maybe even in the locker room. I can't speak to that, but generally if you're a prick outside work some of it rubs off at work and vice versa,,

Its not that he was a prick. He was a nice often not serioius enough. He was to much a player and had kids out of marriage he didnt raise. That was his biggest fault. He didnt pad stats. He wasnt a prick to anyone and its easy to see after you stated you didnt know much about him that now you're just making it up as you go. BR is making you look stupid. You should not participate in conversations you know nothing about.

He played a hybrid position that was referred to in KCs scheme as the Falcon position. He played where he was asked and what he was asked. He was not a coverage LBer. He was a rush LBer. Usually off the left side of the offense. He was so prolific at it that no matter the gameplan the dude got his.

Broncos fans biggest crack on him was his skills as a father. Not a prick.

You folks have never had a LBer that could hold his jock. Ever. Get over it

crazyhorse
06-23-2012, 03:10 PM
Players look at the stats and the film of what others do. In Millers case I suspect that is the reason he wanted to be like him.. I also suspect that someone told him at one time or another he "played like DT".. therefore put in film study to further emulate him..


More making it up as you go?

Its making you look foolish.

crazyhorse
06-23-2012, 03:12 PM
How does a linebacker pad his stats?

He cant. Its a ridiculous statement made without the benefit of thinking. No logic what so ever. Very foolish.

MagicHef
06-23-2012, 04:05 PM
I would be ecstatic if Miller turned out to be the passrusher that DT was.

lonestar
06-23-2012, 04:53 PM
Its not that he was a prick. He was a nice often not serioius enough. He was to much a player and had kids out of marriage he didnt raise. That was his biggest fault. He didnt pad stats. He wasnt a prick to anyone and its easy to see after you stated you didnt know much about him that now you're just making it up as you go. BR is making you look stupid. You should not participate in conversations you know nothing about.

He played a hybrid position that was referred to in KCs scheme as the Falcon position. He played where he was asked and what he was asked. He was not a coverage LBer. He was a rush LBer. Usually off the left side of the offense. He was so prolific at it that no matter the gameplan the dude got his.

Broncos fans biggest crack on him was his skills as a father. Not a prick.

You folks have never had a LBer that could hold his jock. Ever. Get over it
As I said I would have loved To have his skills on the field.
I think Randy G would have easily held his jock. In fact it could be said just maybe DT would have had a tough time holding RGs jock. He averaged a bit over 200 tackles a year. Had 20 sacks and 20 picks in his ten year career.
He said when he was on his rookie year he would only play ten years and unlike most athletes kept his word.

It is one of the biggest travesties of all time he is not a HOFer.

Like I said I don't know DT other than when he played DEN or any other televised KC game.
Never have said I was an expert on him but I do know football. I'll also bet the Miller did not cone up with the DT comparison with out someone else brining it to his attention.
Since he grew up in Dallas Th odds of him seeing DT live was slim and none. Considering DTs career was over about the time miller may have played PEE WEE I'm Pretty sure someone did indeed turned him on to DT. Opposed to figuring it out himself.

Your correct most Bronco fans hated him and having a gaggle of kids that he did not care for, did him no favors.

lonestar
06-23-2012, 05:03 PM
I would be ecstatic if Miller turned out to be the passrusher that DT was.

DT averaged about 12 a game miller had 11 in his rookie year playing the last 4 games with one hand..

in their first year their tackles were virtually the same but Von had 4.5 most sacks that DT did..

Unless Miller gets hurt I think it is a lock..

CEH
06-23-2012, 05:14 PM
DT was a great football player. Any GM today would want DT on the field. He has to be accounted for with a TE or back which changes the odds into the defense's favor. Von Miller is about to explode into a top 20 player in the NFL a perennial Pro Bowler who teams have to account for on every play. With Doom on the other side could be a great season for Denver on D

KCStud
06-23-2012, 07:33 PM
DT averaged about 12 a game miller had 11 in his rookie year playing the last 4 games with one hand..

in their first year their tackles were virtually the same but Von had 4.5 most sacks that DT did..

Unless Miller gets hurt I think it is a lock..

Yes but DT had 20 sacks in his 2nd season, his best ever, so Von is gonna have to get better in that regard.

Miller will likely be a better in other areas, but DT is arguably the best pass rushing LB of all time. Forced fumbles need to become accounted for too. DT averaged 4 a year.

To suggest that Von is already the best OLB in the league is dumb. As of right now, Von couldn't hold Demarcus Ware's jock.

Ware is the best OLB I've seen since DT. He already has 100 sacks at the age of 30 and will likely be in the top 10 for all time sacks by the time he's 32.
He plays the run really well and is just a monster.

rugbythug
06-23-2012, 07:49 PM
Yes but DT had 20 sacks in his 2nd season, his best ever, so Von is gonna have to get better in that regard.

Miller will likely be a better in other areas, but DT is arguably the best pass rushing LB of all time. Forced fumbles need to become accounted for too. DT averaged 4 a year.

To suggest that Von is already the best OLB in the league is dumb. As of right now, Von couldn't hold Demarcus Ware's jock.

Ware is the best OLB I've seen since DT. He already has 100 sacks at the age of 30 and will likely be in the top 10 for all time sacks by the time he's 32.
He plays the run really well and is just a monster.


DT was good. But he was not LT.
Von is the Best 4-3 OLB in the NFL. All Pro
Ware is a HOF player

lonestar
06-23-2012, 07:53 PM
Yes but DT had 20 sacks in his 2nd season, his best ever, so Von is gonna have to get better in that regard.

Miller will likely be a better in other areas, but DT is arguably the best pass rushing LB of all time. Forced fumbles need to become accounted for too. DT averaged 4 a year.

To suggest that Von is already the best OLB in the league is dumb. As of right now, Von couldn't hold Demarcus Ware's jock.

Ware is the best OLB I've seen since DT. He already has 100 sacks at the age of 30 and will likely be in the top 10 for all time sacks by the time he's 32.
He plays the run really well and is just a monster.

here we go again with man love from KC..

yet he only averaged 10.8 for the next 5 years..

lets not let the manlove get in the way of facts..

there is an old adage "figures never lie, but liars always figure"..

Go figure..

as for DT is arguably the best pass rushing LB of all time

NOT

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/6705/lawrence-taylor

read and weep..

lonestar
06-23-2012, 07:55 PM
DT was good. But he was not LT.
Von is the Best 4-3 OLB in the NFL. All Pro
Ware is a HOF player

Beat me to it while I was checking the stats,,'

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/6705/lawrence-taylor

132.5 in his career..

now I'm not sure if DT could hold LT's jock..

KCStud
06-23-2012, 08:26 PM
Beat me to it while I was checking the stats,,'

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/6705/lawrence-taylor

132.5 in his career..

now I'm not sure if DT could hold LT's jock..

LT played 2 more seasons than DT did. Without those 2 years, DT has more sacks than him.
If DT hadn't died such a tragic young death, he would have easily passed LT in the next year or two in all time sacks.

Another big factor that should play in is that LT didn't have a forced fumble until his last season (3 total), while DT had 41 in his career.

GreatBronco16
06-23-2012, 08:30 PM
DT had 126.5 sacks in 169 games played. .75 sacks per game. He also had 2 fewer seasons played. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/98/derrick-thomas
LT had 132.5 sacks in 184 games played. .72 sacks per game.


I say they can hold each others jocks.

Kaylore
06-23-2012, 08:57 PM
LT played 2 more seasons than DT did. Without those 2 years, DT has more sacks than him.
If DT hadn't died such a tragic young death, he would have easily passed LT in the next year or two in all time sacks.

Another big factor that should play in is that LT didn't have a forced fumble until his last season (3 total), while DT had 41 in his career.

<img src="http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=15709&stc=1&d=1147936819">

LT had more than three forced fumbles.

Taylor ended his career with 1,088 tackles, 132.5 sacks (not counting the 9.5 sacks he recorded as a rookie because sacks did not become an official statistic until 1982), nine interceptions, 134 return yards, two touchdowns, 33 forced fumbles, 11 fumble recoveries, and 34 fumble return yards.[27]

lonestar
06-23-2012, 09:09 PM
<img src="http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=15709&stc=1&d=1147936819">

LT had more than three forced fumbles.

Danke.. that should do it..

always enjoy a pissing contest with man lovers..

Kaylore
06-23-2012, 09:12 PM
Danke.. that should do it..

always enjoy a pissing contest with man lovers..

Derrick Thomas never scored a TD (this surprised me). What also surprised me is LT never got a safety, to DT's three. The coup de grace is the tackles. LT had over 1000 to DT's 600. DT didn't really play the run. He'd rush the passer first and play the run second.

lonestar
06-23-2012, 09:14 PM
LT played 2 more seasons than DT did. Without those 2 years, DT has more sacks than him.
If DT hadn't died such a tragic young death, he would have easily passed LT in the next year or two in all time sacks.

Another big factor that should play in is that LT didn't have a forced fumble until his last season (3 total), while DT had 41 in his career.

never know what would have happened..

Had DT not been speeding and weaving thru traffic (driving recklessly) it would not have been a tragic young death.. Had he not been paralyzed he would have spent time in prison for manslaughter..

Just like TD had Greise not thrown that pick he may have been the best RB of all time..

man love makes one turn a blind eye..

lonestar
06-23-2012, 09:18 PM
Derrick Thomas never scored a TD (this surprised me). What also surprised me is LT never got a safety, to DT's three. The coup de grace is the tackles. LT had over 1000 to DT's 600. DT didn't really play the run. He'd rush the passer first and play the run second.

no doubt a great pass rusher, but hardly the best OLB to play the game..

Now if you want to talk about yahoo's that was LT.. From what I remember one of the least gracious guys to ever play the game..

At the time LT was playing in the REAL NFL, DT was playing in the second fiddle AFCW.. maybe even third fiddle..

 

KCStud
06-23-2012, 09:18 PM
Danke.. that should do it..

always enjoy a pissing contest with man lovers..

Your link is actually the one that has the false info. ESPN says he only had 3 FF's.

lonestar
06-23-2012, 09:20 PM
Your link is actually the one that has the false info. ESPN says he only had 3 FF's.

WOw is that all you have, a bad link..

KCStud
06-23-2012, 09:21 PM
never know what would have happened..

Had DT not been speeding and weaving thru traffic (driving recklessly) it would not have been a tragic young death.. Had he not been paralyzed he would have spent time in prison for manslaughter..

Just like TD had Greise not thrown that pick he may have been the best RB of all time..

man love makes one turn a blind eye..

I think it's pretty safe to assume had DT lived he would have gotten the 8 sacks needed to pass LT. The least amount of sacks DT had in a season was 7 and he still had a few years left in the tank.

KCStud
06-23-2012, 09:24 PM
WOw is that all you have, a bad link..

Don't get mad at me because ESPN didn't look at the stat sheet. Pro football reference is wrong too.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylLa00.htm

Tombstone RJ
06-23-2012, 09:38 PM
I think it's pretty safe to assume had DT lived he would have gotten the 8 sacks needed to pass LT. The least amount of sacks DT had in a season was 7 and he still had a few years left in the tank.

who knows, but he probably could have fathered 7-8 more illegitimate kids... :thumbs:

lonestar
06-23-2012, 09:43 PM
who knows, but he probably could have fathered 7-8 more illegitimate kids... :thumbs:


there is a ZINGER if I ever saw one.

we all know what ASSUME means don't we..

Kaylore
06-23-2012, 11:21 PM
Don't get mad at me because ESPN didn't look at the stat sheet. Pro football reference is wrong too.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylLa00.htm

What's hilarious is you just dated yourself, Sheepstud. That you would actually think he only had three is hilarious and also shows you probably never watched LT play a game, which makes your argument complete crap since you've never really seen LT to compare. How old are you, anyway?

KCStud
06-23-2012, 11:37 PM
What's hilarious is you just dated yourself, Sheepstud. That you would actually think he only had three is hilarious and also shows you probably never watched LT play a game, which makes your argument complete crap since you've never really seen LT to compare. How old are you, anyway?

You haven't seen him play either, or at least you weren't old enough to realize what was going on.

Shananahan
06-24-2012, 12:06 AM
man love makes one turn a blind eye..
This is signature-worthy.

cutthemdown
06-24-2012, 12:27 AM
Your link is actually the one that has the false info. ESPN says he only had 3 FF's.

The forgot a 3. Don't you think 33 sounds more right? LOL I can remember a few stripped balls on LT sacks in games I watched. No way he only had 3, use your brain. He had what 1000 tackles? Cmon dude use some logic.

Kaylore
06-24-2012, 09:06 AM
You haven't seen him play either, or at least you weren't old enough to realize what was going on.

You're wrong. And as usual you never acknowledge it. You just change the subject.

KCStud
06-24-2012, 10:51 AM
You're wrong. And as usual you never acknowledge it. You just change the subject.

Did you not put up your wedding photos a few years ago? I'm pretty sure that was you. And you didn't seem that old.

Randall Flagg
06-24-2012, 11:40 AM
to play devils advocate,Hali has 27 sacks the last 2 seasons 53.5 for his career so far. Von will be better than Hali by far but miller has only played 1 yr.

I couldn't agree more. Hali started out as a DE and (more or less) plays a Derrick Thomas style LB. He has one job - Rush the QB.

Miller will, in time, become the better player however.

KCStud
06-24-2012, 12:01 PM
I couldn't agree more. Hali started out as a DE and (more or less) plays a Derrick Thomas style LB. He has one job - Rush the QB.

Miller will, in time, become the better player however.

He has to stop the run too, and he did a solid job of that last year.

lonestar
06-24-2012, 12:22 PM
You're wrong. And as usual you never acknowledge it. You just change the subject.

Since I lived on the east coast part of the time during LT's reign of terror and watched all of DT's games against DEN and some of his other games.. I can say there was not a more dominating guy than LT was..


While I would have loved to have DT as a Bronco only because he would have been doing that to other teams and NOT to Us, LT was head above the better of the two..

It is obvious to anyone old enough to have seen the two and that understands the game that defending a chef over a giant is lunacy..

Kaylore
06-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Did you not put up your wedding photos a few years ago? I'm pretty sure that was you. And you didn't seem that old.

You're suggesting I am unable to remember if Lawrence Taylor caused more than three fumbles because I was too young? I was seven years old when I watched the Super Bowl against the Giants. Everyone was talking about how Taylor was going to sack Elway and if we didn't stop him we'd lose. My recollection is he did sack him one time but by and large Taylor was a non-issue. It was the rest of the defense that shut down Elway.

Regardless, a fumble is perhaps the easiest play to recognize. And since I was a teenager when LT retired, I saw him play into my adolescence - in the playoffs and on MNF and SB XXV.

So no, you are wrong. I was not too young to remember if he had more than three fumbles or not. Even if I was, do you honestly think I would assume someone with 145+ sacks and 1000+ tackles would have had only three? I still am shocked you really believed that.

/Cue subject change.

NUB
06-24-2012, 01:48 PM
Bad call with the 1/2. You could make the argument that Von Miller was the best linebacker in the entire league last year, not just in the AFCW.

KCStud
06-24-2012, 01:49 PM
You're suggesting I am unable to remember if Lawrence Taylor caused more than three fumbles because I was too young? I was seven years old when I watched the Super Bowl against the Giants. Everyone was talking about how Taylor was going to sack Elway and if we didn't stop him we'd lose. My recollection is he did sack him one time but by and large Taylor was a non-issue. It was the rest of the defense that shut down Elway.

Regardless, a fumble is perhaps the easiest play to recognize. And since I was a teenager when LT retired, I saw him play into my adolescence - in the playoffs and on MNF and SB XXV.

So no, you are wrong. I was not too young to remember if he had more than three fumbles or not. Even if I was, do you honestly think I would assume someone with 145+ sacks and 1000+ tackles would have had only three? I still am shocked you really believed that.

/Cue subject change.

Good for you. You changing the subject away from ESPN failing to have the correct stats is the real story.

You seem appalled by LT not having 33 forced fumbles recognized.
Maybe you should go here and tell them their error.

http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

KCStud
06-24-2012, 01:50 PM
Bad call with the 1/2. You could make the argument that Von Miller was the best linebacker in the entire league last year, not just in the AFCW.

Best LB in the league? Are you high?

CEH
06-24-2012, 02:08 PM
Miller is already 2nd team All Pro by the AP with a broken hand for 7 games. Next year he's going to replace Suggs on the 1st team with 16 games with 2 hands and two feet

GreatBronco16
06-24-2012, 02:45 PM
Good for you. You changing the subject away from ESPN failing to have the correct stats is the real story.

You seem appalled by LT not having 33 forced fumbles recognized.
Maybe you should go here and tell them their error.

http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

You know, when I first looked at the link before I made my first reply in this thread, I saw that too. Then I got to thinking and knew that it couldn't be right, so I did a little more research and found out the link was wrong or just failed to include all of his numbers. But me, unlike you, used my head first instead of jumping out and just sounding like an idiot in this thread.

Admit you were dumb, stupid and fooled by the link and just move on with your pathetic life. Geez.

NUB
06-24-2012, 02:48 PM
Best LB in the league? Are you high?

He rushed the passer as well as any sack-specialist in the league and his run-stuffing was impeccable. IIRC, PFF's rating system had him ranked highest last year. That is with a broken hand and the usual rookie fatigue, mind you. A healthy Von Miler is quite clearly one of the best linebackers in the entire league and arguably the best. Anybody who has watched him play should know that already.

lonestar
06-24-2012, 02:55 PM
You know, when I first looked at the link before I made my first reply in this thread, I saw that too. Then I got to thinking and knew that it couldn't be right, so I did a little more research and found out the link was wrong or just failed to include all of his numbers. But me, unlike you, used my head first instead of jumping out and just sounding like an idiot in this thread.

Admit you were dumb, stupid and fooled by the link and just move on with your pathetic life. Geez.

:thumbs::thumbs:

lonestar
06-24-2012, 02:56 PM
He rushed the passer as well as any sack-specialist in the league and his run-stuffing was impeccable. IIRC, PFF's rating system had him ranked highest last year. That is with a broken hand and the usual rookie fatigue, mind you. A healthy Von Miler is quite clearly one of the best linebackers in the entire league and arguably the best. Anybody who has watched him play should know that already.

Pride is many an mans/girls (since we did not know for sure which) down fall.

KCStud
06-24-2012, 06:12 PM
He rushed the passer as well as any sack-specialist in the league and his run-stuffing was impeccable. IIRC, PFF's rating system had him ranked highest last year. That is with a broken hand and the usual rookie fatigue, mind you. A healthy Von Miler is quite clearly one of the best linebackers in the entire league and arguably the best. Anybody who has watched him play should know that already.

He's not better than DeMarcus Ware right now, no matter how you try to spin it. Ware is the best OLB in the league by far.
On top of Ware, how can you say he's better than Terrell Suggs or LaMarr Woodley?

And idk if you are just specifying LB's who are sack specialist, but if it's simply pass rushers, than Von is not as good of a pass rusher as Jared Allen.

lonestar
06-24-2012, 08:58 PM
He's not better than DeMarcus Ware right now, no matter how you try to spin it. Ware is the best OLB in the league by far.
On top of Ware, how can you say he's better than Terrell Suggs or LaMarr Woodley?

And idk if you are just specifying LB's who are sack specialist, but if it's simply pass rushers, than Von is not as good of a pass rusher as Jared Allen.



just one more GAFF for studly..

Active
# Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Age Exp. College
69 Allen, Jared DE 6-6 270 30 9 Idaho State

an old adage might apply here" Better to be thought a fool,
than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt!"

Kaylore
06-24-2012, 09:05 PM
He's not better than DeMarcus Ware right now, no matter how you try to spin it. Ware is the best OLB in the league by far.
On top of Ware, how can you say he's better than Terrell Suggs or LaMarr Woodley?

And idk if you are just specifying LB's who are sack specialist, but if it's simply pass rushers, than Von is not as good of a pass rusher as Jared Allen.
Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.

lonestar
06-24-2012, 09:13 PM
Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.

:thumbsup:

KCStud
06-24-2012, 11:13 PM
Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.

I see you just flew by my post without reading or comprehending it, as usual. If you actually read the post, you'd see that I said made the distinction between a LB and a pure pass rusher. The poster made the assumption Von was the best pure pass rusher, which is false.

If you read any of the post, I clarified more than once that right now Von is not the best OLB in the league, because he isn't. Is he good? Yeah of course he is, but is he the BEST in the NFL? NO.
And last year Tamba was more of a force overall than Von. He was just as good of a run stopper and he got more pressure on QB's than Von. So again, right now Tamba deserves to be ahead of Von until Von goes out and proves otherwise.

And I love that this board makes excuses for Von. Yes he was hurt. That's how the game goes.
KC lost a ton of their key players to injury last year and would have won the division with those missing players, but ya know what Gaylore? THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

And I'm pretty sure a broken hand wasn't the reason Von got beat up in the run game by McCluster. There were several times Von wasn't in the right position to make a play or took a bad angle. I saw it multiple times. McCluster beat Von so many times that Von tried tripping him because he couldn't stop him.

The point of this post is that people saying that last year or even right now, Von is NOT the best LB in the league. He's not the best pure pass rusher in the league. He isn't the best 3-4 OLB in the league. And saying he is THE best in the NFL is pure homerism.

Oh and btw. Jared Allen is better than Von as a pass rusher and in coverage. That's just how good Allen is. And he's a DE.

NUB
06-25-2012, 02:28 AM
Tamba Hali's rush-defense has been mediocre/average with a spike in improvement last season -- don't say he is "just as good of a run-stopper" because he flat out is not. Hali is another hybrid player and a guy who depends on burst as he is a slow player if asked to race (4.9/40); he is not going to be as good roaming against the run as a guy who flies about the field with the speed of a cornerback.

Von Miller did not miss a single tackle last year. Per PFF, whose calculation you can take or leave, he was the highest rated defensive player in the league. Why? Because he can make tackles look like tools, stuff running lanes, and roam to track down the ball with ease. His ability to both pass rush and stop the run is what puts him up for debate as the best. Ware, Allen, et al, are not exactly the best of comparisons, at least with not first taking into consideration these guys often play at the line in the DE position. Miller's competition comes from Suggs, Matthews, etc. I think he blows the one-dimensional Matthews out of the water; with Suggs there is debate. With Hali... Hali is a great player, but Miller's impeccable run defense and range on the field clearly makes him a better linebacker in my opinion.

DENVERDUI55
06-25-2012, 08:32 AM
Jared Allen is a defensive end!Of course he won't have as many sacks, genius. And so what if he won't get as many sacks as Jared Allen. Dangit! We may have to settle for sacks in the teens! You showed us!

And Demarcus ware plays DE in a 3-4. But just for fun, here are some stats from Miller and Ware's last year:

Ware: 19.5 sacks, 26 tackles for a loss, 2 passes defended 2 forced fumbles

Miller: 11.5 sacks, 21 tackles for a loss, 4 passes defended 2 forced fumbles.

Miller missed a game due to injury, played four games with a cast on one hand, plays OLB in a 4-3, not a 3-4, so he drops back more and, oh yeah, he was a FREAKING ROOKIE.

So saying our rookie isn't as good as two of the best players at their position, both of which are looking at probable HOF careers isn't really much smack talk - especially when he's already pretty close.

Really, what's your point KC? You keep moving the goal posts. First it was Miller wasn't that good, then it was your stupid linebacker was better, then it was DT is better than LT, then it was Miller isn't as good as Allen and Ware.

I think you're afraid to admit that Von Miller is awesome.

Pretending he isn't won't make him go away, Sheepstud.

This all started out that Miller isn't the best LB in his draft class. Aldon Smith, Kerrigan LOL, and the KC LB LOL. He just keeps deflecting all while getting sodimized in arguments.

crazyhorse
06-25-2012, 09:05 AM
I see you just flew by my post without reading or comprehending it, as usual. If you actually read the post, you'd see that I said made the distinction between a LB and a pure pass rusher. The poster made the assumption Von was the best pure pass rusher, which is false.

If you read any of the post, I clarified more than once that right now Von is not the best OLB in the league, because he isn't. Is he good? Yeah of course he is, but is he the BEST in the NFL? NO.
And last year Tamba was more of a force overall than Von. He was just as good of a run stopper and he got more pressure on QB's than Von. So again, right now Tamba deserves to be ahead of Von until Von goes out and proves otherwise.

And I love that this board makes excuses for Von. Yes he was hurt. That's how the game goes.
KC lost a ton of their key players to injury last year and would have won the division with those missing players, but ya know what Gaylore? THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

And I'm pretty sure a broken hand wasn't the reason Von got beat up in the run game by McCluster. There were several times Von wasn't in the right position to make a play or took a bad angle. I saw it multiple times. McCluster beat Von so many times that Von tried tripping him because he couldn't stop him.

The point of this post is that people saying that last year or even right now, Von is NOT the best LB in the league. He's not the best pure pass rusher in the league. He isn't the best 3-4 OLB in the league. And saying he is THE best in the NFL is pure homerism.

Oh and btw. Jared Allen is better than Von as a pass rusher and in coverage. That's just how good Allen is. And he's a DE.

This is a good post. Even a blind squirrel......

Kaylore
06-25-2012, 10:15 AM
I see you just flew by my post without reading or comprehending it, as usual. If you actually read the post, you'd see that I said made the distinction between a LB and a pure pass rusher. The poster made the assumption Von was the best pure pass rusher, which is false.

If you read any of the post, I clarified more than once that right now Von is not the best OLB in the league, because he isn't. Is he good? Yeah of course he is, but is he the BEST in the NFL? NO.
And last year Tamba was more of a force overall than Von. He was just as good of a run stopper and he got more pressure on QB's than Von. So again, right now Tamba deserves to be ahead of Von until Von goes out and proves otherwise.

And I love that this board makes excuses for Von. Yes he was hurt. That's how the game goes.
KC lost a ton of their key players to injury last year and would have won the division with those missing players, but ya know what Gaylore? THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

And I'm pretty sure a broken hand wasn't the reason Von got beat up in the run game by McCluster. There were several times Von wasn't in the right position to make a play or took a bad angle. I saw it multiple times. McCluster beat Von so many times that Von tried tripping him because he couldn't stop him.

The point of this post is that people saying that last year or even right now, Von is NOT the best LB in the league. He's not the best pure pass rusher in the league. He isn't the best 3-4 OLB in the league. And saying he is THE best in the NFL is pure homerism.

Oh and btw. Jared Allen is better than Von as a pass rusher and in coverage. That's just how good Allen is. And he's a DE.

First, Jared Allen isn't as good in coverage as Von Miller. He just isn't. All his deflections are swat downs at the LOS. That isn't "coverage."

Second, the point of mentioning injuries is that he finished second team all-pro with near identical stats missing a game and playing four with a broken hand. Do you hear anyone here saying that Jamal Charles sucks because he didn't put up good numbers for the 2011 season? We could, and then use your crap argument that "no excuses! Injuries happen so That's how the game goes. THAT'S HOW IT GOES!" Someone the point that a rookie with a bad hand putting up godly numbers suggests he could actually have played much better is totally over your head.

Finally, your original point was that Von Miller wasn't the best OLB in the draft and then you tried to argue the Chiefs player was. He is not. Is Von the best OLB in the league? He wasn't last year. But he was pretty close and with a full offseason, and working hand, and no longer being rookie, he very well could be at this moment.

KCStud
06-25-2012, 11:46 AM
First, Jared Allen isn't as good in coverage as Von Miller. He just isn't. All his deflections are swat downs at the LOS. That isn't "coverage."

Second, the point of mentioning injuries is that he finished second team all-pro with near identical stats missing a game and playing four with a broken hand. Do you hear anyone here saying that Jamal Charles sucks because he didn't put up good numbers for the 2011 season? We could, and then use your crap argument that "no excuses! Injuries happen so That's how the game goes. THAT'S HOW IT GOES!" Someone the point that a rookie with a bad hand putting up godly numbers suggests he could actually have played much better is totally over your head.

Finally, your original point was that Von Miller wasn't the best OLB in the draft and then you tried to argue the Chiefs player was. He is not. Is Von the best OLB in the league? He wasn't last year. But he was pretty close and with a full offseason, and working hand, and no longer being rookie, he very well could be at this moment.

Yes, he is. Has Von made INT's? Nope. Allen has made plays in coverage. He even had double-digit passes defended in back-to-back seasons. Want proof? Here ya go...(even some nice commentary)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YPb4-5pChuw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And to the JC question, yes there are people who say JC sucks (ahem Jetmeck/BRob), but we all know JC isn't a fluke. He's proven it ever since he stepped on the field.

And yes I do believe that Justin Houston can be just as good as Von Miller in the future. Last year Von was the most NFL ready defender in the draft, but that doesn't mean he's going to develop into the best. Von is the best right now, but I can easily see Houston being a similar player. Houston missed a portion of training camp and had no offseason either.
Houston has similar speed to Von. He's very fast off the edge. Von is better in coverage, but Houston is the better run defender. It took awhile for Houston to get adjusted to the NFL and Romeo brought him along slowly. In the 2nd half of the year Houston started every game and was a man out there.

I think Houston will be a double digit sack LB next year who can play the run extremely well and be decent in coverage (barring injury).
So our 3rd round pick looks to be similar to your #2 overall pick. Congrats

MagicHef
06-25-2012, 12:02 PM
Run defense ratings by PFF:

Hali: +6.9
Dumervil: +7.3
Houston: +7.4
Miller: +22.9

Kaylore
06-25-2012, 12:14 PM
Run defense ratings by PFF:

Hali: +6.9
Dumervil: +7.3
Houston: +7.4
Miller: +22.9

Ruh-roh!

Sheepstud looks stupid again! Jared Allen catching a swing pass doesn't mean he is good in coverage.

And let's revisit this thread since KCStud has declared Houston superior to Von Miller and "will show us all" next season.

MagicHef
06-25-2012, 12:25 PM
Houston isn't just "not as good" in coverage, he's pretty terrible:

Houston: -7.6
Hali: 0.0
Dumervil: +2.0
Miller: +5.3

NorCalBronco7
06-25-2012, 12:50 PM
Yes, he is. Has Von made INT's? Nope. Allen has made plays in coverage. He even had double-digit passes defended in back-to-back seasons. Want proof? Here ya go...(even some nice commentary)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YPb4-5pChuw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And to the JC question, yes there are people who say JC sucks (ahem Jetmeck/BRob), but we all know JC isn't a fluke. He's proven it ever since he stepped on the field.

And yes I do believe that Justin Houston can be just as good as Von Miller in the future. Last year Von was the most NFL ready defender in the draft, but that doesn't mean he's going to develop into the best. Von is the best right now, but I can easily see Houston being a similar player. Houston missed a portion of training camp and had no offseason either.
Houston has similar speed to Von. He's very fast off the edge. Von is better in coverage, but Houston is the better run defender. It took awhile for Houston to get adjusted to the NFL and Romeo brought him along slowly. In the 2nd half of the year Houston started every game and was a man out there.

I think Houston will be a double digit sack LB next year who can play the run extremely well and be decent in coverage (barring injury).
So our 3rd round pick looks to be similar to your #2 overall pick. Congrats

Miller doesnt need all the excuses you afforded Houston. Poor boy.

Von Miller is much faster than Houston.

Jared Allen is a 43 RDE and your comparing his coverage abilities based on tipped passes to Von Miller? What an idiot.

crazyhorse
06-25-2012, 01:40 PM
For the record folks, Houston was looking like a man by the end of the season. KCStud may be reaching a little, but he might be a top half of the league LBer by seasons end and ascending. His numbers reflect an average. His average does not show his improvement. He started pretty bad.

However Miller was top 10 his 1st snap. I gotta say I love everything about the guy. If he's not the real deal, Ill be real surprized. Not just on the field either. I think this guy will be running the defense next season. He might even replace what you lost in Dawkins locker room presence. The Chief I think of when I think in comparison is Eric Berry. Berry was top 3 from his 1st snap.

Von Miller is on that level KCStud.

Shananahan
06-25-2012, 01:51 PM
I cried a little inside when Kansas City took Berry.

MagicHef
06-25-2012, 02:20 PM
For the record folks, Houston was looking like a man by the end of the season. KCStud may be reaching a little, but he might be a top half of the league LBer by seasons end and ascending. His numbers reflect an average. His average does not show his improvement. He started pretty bad.

However Miller was top 10 his 1st snap. I gotta say I love everything about the guy. If he's not the real deal, Ill be real surprized. Not just on the field either. I think this guy will be running the defense next season. He might even replace what you lost in Dawkins locker room presence. The Chief I think of when I think in comparison is Eric Berry. Berry was top 3 from his 1st snap.

Von Miller is on that level KCStud.

I'm not sure Berry was top 3 from his first snap. He gave up 7 TDs in coverage he was responsible for in 2010. That was tied for most in the league with Tyvon Branch and Alan Ball. He did pick off 4 which is good, but it doesn't really compare with Polamalu (0 TDs, 7 Ints), Reed (4 TDs, 8 Ints), Sensabaugh (1 TD, 5 Ints), or even Earl Thomas (3 TDs, 5 Ints)

I'm not saying he won't be an excellent player, but I'm not sure he was really top 3 from the very beginning.

lonestar
06-25-2012, 02:51 PM
For the record folks, Houston was looking like a man by the end of the season. KCStud may be reaching a little, but he might be a top half of the league LBer by seasons end and ascending. His numbers reflect an average. His average does not show his improvement. He started pretty bad.

However Miller was top 10 his 1st snap. I gotta say I love everything about the guy. If he's not the real deal, Ill be real surprized. Not just on the field either. I think this guy will be running the defense next season. He might even replace what you lost in Dawkins locker room presence. The Chief I think of when I think in comparison is Eric Berry. Berry was top 3 from his 1st snap.

Von Miller is on that level KCStud.

Reaching a little?

you are the master of understatement..

he has a man crush on all things chefs .. since Jared used to be a chef he should know tha he never played anything but DE, occasionally he would drop into coverage but it was from a hand in the dirt DE spot..

As for his other ravings he sounds like a very young kid that does not know anything but chefs, madden and maybe some FF.. all of which is fantasy land level football..

and calling your self stud also sounds like a dreamer.. probably never ever been laid..

Shananahan
06-25-2012, 03:06 PM
I always thought 'KCStud' referred to his earring.

crazyhorse
06-25-2012, 03:30 PM
I'm not sure Berry was top 3 from his first snap. He gave up 7 TDs in coverage he was responsible for in 2010. That was tied for most in the league with Tyvon Branch and Alan Ball. He did pick off 4 which is good, but it doesn't really compare with Polamalu (0 TDs, 7 Ints), Reed (4 TDs, 8 Ints), Sensabaugh (1 TD, 5 Ints), or even Earl Thomas (3 TDs, 5 Ints)

I'm not saying he won't be an excellent player, but I'm not sure he was really top 3 from the very beginning.

DB stats!? Really?

Your statistics dont tell the story. Where do Vons stats place him?

If your going to debate football with me, you must be able to form an opinion watching football. You cant have it told to you by the media, or make it up as you go. Ive been around wayyy too long for that. Anyone watching Berry saw a few rookie hiccups in the beginning. Then blow someone up 5 yards deep in the backfield on thevnext play. Just like Von, he dont have the best in the league stats, but best in the league play.

KCStud
06-25-2012, 05:30 PM
Run defense ratings by PFF:

Hali: +6.9
Dumervil: +7.3
Houston: +7.4
Miller: +22.9

I love cherry picking stats! Houston struggled in the first half of the season and then came on in the 2nd half.

Houston's rookie season was a tale of two halves. Perfectly good article explaining it.

http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/06/18/justin-houston-heading-toward-big-season/

So what kind of season might Houston have in 2012? Chances are he could be even better than he was from Week 10 on of last season. But what if he was just equally as good? What would his numbers look like?
In 2011,Houston finished the year with six sacks, three QB hits, 13 QB hurries, three batted passes, 45 tackles and 32 stops.*
*The official NFL numbers credit Houston for a few more tackles. They also credit him with -.5 a sack. We’re using PFF numbers here because we believe them to be more accurate. PFF doesn’t give out 1/2 sacks. If two players get there at the same time, they both get credit for a sack.
His grades from PFF were as follows:

Overall: +6.8, Run D: +7.4, Pass Coverage: -7.6

If we take his numbers from Week 10 on, average them out and project them for an entire season, they look like this.

12 sacks
4 QB hits
22 QB hurries
58 tackles
50 stops
+33.4 overall grade

How does that +33.4 overall grade stack up against all 3-4 OLB from 2011?
It would be good for #3 in the entire NFL behind only Cameron Wake (+43.5) and Aldon Smith (+36.4) and ahead of players like Demarcus Ware (+32.6) and even Tamba Hali (+31.4).

The 50 stops?

Yeah, that’d be the best in the NFL. The stops are really important because those are plays basically blown up by Houston.

NUB
06-25-2012, 11:04 PM
Excuse me, but taking a hot streak and stretching it across an entire season is idiotic given what we're actually discussing here. There are so many players with which that can be done, no? So why do it? There was a period of weeks in which Miller was the most dominant defensive player in the league. You don't see anyone stretching that period out to pull magic tricks out of their ass. What boggles my mind is that you sarcastically call someone out for cherry picking stats -- when they had taken the sum total -- and then turn around and not only cherry pick, but just start making estimates and prognostications as if nobody would notice.

Irish Stout
06-26-2012, 08:39 AM
If we take his numbers from Week 10 on, average them out and project them for an entire season, they look like this.



And.... done.

Rabb
06-26-2012, 08:56 AM
could I get banned for saying I would like KCStud to bathe with a toaster?

DenverBrit
06-26-2012, 09:25 AM
could I get banned for saying I would like KCStud to bathe with a toaster?

Only if you offer to plug it in. :~ohyah!:

Kaylore
06-26-2012, 10:06 AM
KCStud reminds me of Bob circa 2006. Obsessed with being better than the Broncos and believing every player on the team is superior or at least as good. Spending hours arguing with Bronco fans. After each point is shot down, Bob would just lob another, very loosely related, point to try and shift focus.

KCStud opened with Chris Houston being superior to Von Miller. After several pages of back peddling he's managed to argue that Von Miller isn't as good as two HOF players and probably feels like he "won" the argument even after making a fool of himself with the LT had three FF in his whole career fiasco.

Bob did it with more bravado, but functionally their MO's are the same. Bob has become more critical of the FO since that time. He used to be the apologist de jour for the Chiefs, but has since soured on the organization as a whole (as you will find many Chief fans take a pretty cynical view of the organization.) KCStud, probably because he is younger and more idealistic, has filled that role. And what you see in this thread is what Bob used to do, with a bit more hilarity, many moons ago.

BTW, on Houston, he couldn't hold Miller's Jock. Houston had 5 sacks his last six games. What they don't tell you is he got three against the Caleb Hanie led Bears and their porous offensive line. He had one sack against the Jets and his final sack and half was against Tebow. So basically Houston feasted on two QB's that are one of the easiest to sack in the NFL. He's no Von Miller.

WolfpackGuy
06-26-2012, 10:58 AM
Who is this Houston guy?

Kaylore
06-26-2012, 11:14 AM
Who is this Houston guy?

Justin Houston, of the planet Houston.

http://images.wikia.com/dcmovies/images/e/ee/GeneralZod.jpg

KCStud
06-26-2012, 11:20 AM
KCStud reminds me of Bob circa 2006. Obsessed with being better than the Broncos and believing every player on the team is superior or at least as good. Spending hours arguing with Bronco fans. After each point is shot down, Bob would just lob another, very loosely related, point to try and shift focus.

When did I say Cassel was better than Manning? Or any CB being better than Champ? I've made good comments about the Broncos. You're just too stupid to actually read it.


KCStud opened with Chris Houston being superior to Von Miller. After several pages of back peddling he's managed to argue that Von Miller isn't as good as two HOF players and probably feels like he "won" the argument even after making a fool of himself with the LT had three FF in his whole career fiasco.

Bob did it with more bravado, but functionally their MO's are the same. Bob has become more critical of the FO since that time. He used to be the apologist de jour for the Chiefs, but has since soured on the organization as a whole (as you will find many Chief fans take a pretty cynical view of the organization.) KCStud, probably because he is younger and more idealistic, has filled that role. And what you see in this thread is what Bob used to do, with a bit more hilarity, many moons ago.

Nice Chris Houston fail. Bob is typical flip flopper. He hates everything one day, then loves them the next.

BTW, on Houston, he couldn't hold Miller's Jock. Houston had 5 sacks his last six games. What they don't tell you is he got three against the Caleb Hanie led Bears and their porous offensive line. He had one sack against the Jets and his final sack and half was against Tebow. So basically Houston feasted on two QB's that are one of the easiest to sack in the NFL. He's no Von Miller.

Oh you wanna play that game huh? Von got 2.5 sacks off the same Jets and Bears teams.
He also got 1.5 sacks off Matt "I hold the ball forever" Cassel and Barry "I'm the worst rated RT in the entire league" Richardson.
He also got 2 sacks on the Chargers OL who had serious problems last year on their OL and didn't even have their LT the 2nd time they played you.
That's 6 sacks that Von got on easy targets.

You remind me of a dumbass....because you are one.

Kaylore
06-26-2012, 12:07 PM
You remind me of a dumbass....because you are one.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/wwjtd/files/2012/06/threat3.jpg


If that was all Von did, then I would agree. Unfortunately he recorded sacks against Cincinatti, Oakland and Tennessee - all three are in the top five for fewest sacks allowed last season. In fact he was the only player in the NFL to record a sack against more than two in the top five.

So he sacks everyone, where Houston just goes nuts on garbage. Hey! At least he doesn't do nothing against garbage!

You've been owned. Have a nice day. :pimp:
http://theorange.co/storage/TC%20-%20Goofy%20Grin.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=133 9771879624

GreatBronco16
06-26-2012, 12:44 PM
You've been owned. Have a nice day. :pimp:
http://theorange.co/storage/TC%20-%20Goofy%20Grin.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=133 9771879624

He's too stupid to notice.:rofl:

WolfpackGuy
06-26-2012, 12:58 PM
Justin Houston, of the planet Houston.

http://images.wikia.com/dcmovies/images/e/ee/GeneralZod.jpg

Terrance Stamp is probably better in coverage.

KCStud
06-26-2012, 04:23 PM
http://freethoughtblogs.com/wwjtd/files/2012/06/threat3.jpg


If that was all Von did, then I would agree. Unfortunately he recorded sacks against Cincinatti, Oakland and Tennessee - all three are in the top five for fewest sacks allowed last season. In fact he was the only player in the NFL to record a sack against more than two in the top five.

So he sacks everyone, where Houston just goes nuts on garbage. Hey! At least he doesn't do nothing against garbage!

You've been owned. Have a nice day. :pimp:
http://theorange.co/storage/TC%20-%20Goofy%20Grin.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=133 9771879624

Typical internet gif/smash talk trash. You are a clown. Have a nice day clown! :rofl:

lonestar
06-26-2012, 05:00 PM
KCStud reminds me of Bob circa 2006. Obsessed with being better than the Broncos and believing every player on the team is superior or at least as good. Spending hours arguing with Bronco fans. After each point is shot down, Bob would just lob another, very loosely related, point to try and shift focus.

KCStud opened with Chris Houston being superior to Von Miller. After several pages of back peddling he's managed to argue that Von Miller isn't as good as two HOF players and probably feels like he "won" the argument even after making a fool of himself with the LT had three FF in his whole career fiasco.

Bob did it with more bravado, but functionally their MO's are the same. Bob has become more critical of the FO since that time. He used to be the apologist de jour for the Chiefs, but has since soured on the organization as a whole (as you will find many Chief fans take a pretty cynical view of the organization.) KCStud, probably because he is younger and more idealistic, has filled that role. And what you see in this thread is what Bob used to do, with a bit more hilarity, many moons ago.

BTW, on Houston, he couldn't hold Miller's Jock. Houston had 5 sacks his last six games. What they don't tell you is he got three against the Caleb Hanie led Bears and their porous offensive line. He had one sack against the Jets and his final sack and half was against Tebow. So basically Houston feasted on two QB's that are one of the easiest to sack in the NFL. He's no Von Miller.

Reminds me of Raider Joe of old Mania days Raiders could do not wrong all of their players were great and how they were going to kick our asses..

One fond memory was Robert Gallery was going to be the best OLT in the NFL..

.. got to the point many called him radier hoe..

Wonder what ever happened to him..

lonestar
06-26-2012, 05:02 PM
Typical internet gif/smash talk trash. You are a clown. Have a nice day clown! :rofl:

what ever you say Studly..:thumbsup:

You have been beaten like a rented mule in the thread..

KCStud
06-26-2012, 05:38 PM
what ever you say Studly..:thumbsup:

You have been beaten like a rented mule in the thread..

You must sweat a lot hanging from Kaylore's ball sack, huh?

Tombstone RJ
06-26-2012, 06:06 PM
lol, this thread delivers some good laughs, thanks kcdud.

DENVERDUI55
06-26-2012, 07:54 PM
Kcpud has now officially past up bob as worst queef poster. All he can do is argue with stats when he gets bent over repeatedly switch subjects and cherry pick more. It's comical.

lonestar
06-26-2012, 08:19 PM
You must sweat a lot hanging from Kaylore's ball sack, huh?

what ever you say Studly..:thumbsup:

You have been beaten like a rented mule in the thread.:rofl:

KCStud
06-26-2012, 08:37 PM
Posters on this board-"Von Miller is better than DT and he's only played one season in the NFL."

God you guys crack me up. :rofl:

lonestar
06-26-2012, 09:15 PM
Posters on this board-"Von Miller is better than DT and he's only played one season in the NFL."

God you guys crack me up. :rofl:

I do not remember reading that as a statement..

I doubt you can find more than two folks that might have said it..

YET everyone says that DT is not the greatest LB ever like you seem to profess..

Good luck on that one.. Studly..

DENVERDUI55
06-26-2012, 10:20 PM
Posters on this board-"Von Miller is better than DT and he's only played one season in the NFL."

God you guys crack me up. :rofl:

Deflecting again. I never said that and gave HOF DT his props. Now why don't you tell us why kerrigan and KC LB are better than miller like you claim. You take what i said and interpret into the KC guy is no good.

cutthemdown
06-27-2012, 01:34 AM
Broncos fans sort of annointing Von Miller the second coming of Randy Gradishar a tad too quick. He had a great rookie yr. Awesome he looks like a real deal NFL player. Will he be the next DT? probably not but he at least looks like a great pass rusher who fills that role on the strong side for Broncos nicely. If he just plays as well as he did last yr that would be good. If he actually is special and is going to get loads better that would be a huge bonus. But we can't really say for sure yet.

Irish Stout
06-27-2012, 09:03 AM
Posters on this board-"Von Miller is better than DT and he's only played one season in the NFL."

God you guys crack me up. :rofl:

1 - Your statement is pure fiction.

2 - You are delusional.

3 - You should really stop.

Irish Stout
06-27-2012, 09:06 AM
Broncos fans sort of annointing Von Miller the second coming of Randy Gradishar a tad too quick.

WHOA!!! Who did this? I missed it. I think its time to ridicule that person now.

Actually, I couldn't find it. I'm worried you are deriving your opinions of fellow Bronco fans from what KCStud has been posting. You shouldn't do that, he keeps making things up.

If such statements do exist, please, please, please point them out. I need a good chuckle this morning.

lonestar
06-27-2012, 09:13 AM
WHOA!!! Who did this? I missed it. I think its time to ridicule that person now.

Actually, I couldn't find it. I'm worried you are deriving your opinions of fellow Bronco fans from what KCStud has been posting. You shouldn't do that, he keeps making things up.

If such statements do exist, please, please, please point them out. I need a good chuckle this morning.

I was thinking about the same thing, I've not seen any RG talk at least in the same sentence as VM..

One can hope he is that great and will not be overlooked for HOF status as RG was.. a total travesty.. Had he played on any east coast team he would have been first ballot..

crazyhorse
06-27-2012, 11:43 AM
I was thinking about the same thing, I've not seen any RG talk at least in the same sentence as VM..

One can hope he is that great and will not be overlooked for HOF status as RG was.. a total travesty.. Had he played on any east coast team he would have been first ballot..

Little got in. So consider yourself even.

lonestar
06-27-2012, 12:22 PM
Little got in. So consider yourself even.

There was a HUGE lobbying effort for him do not beleive that RG will ever get there for someone that averaged over 200 tackles a season and was teh back bone of the Orange Crush well its a travesty..

Think he deserved if more the Little did..

cutthemdown
06-27-2012, 12:38 PM
You guys couldn't figure out the Randy Gradishar comment was a metaphor for people gushing all yr about Miller and how unstoppable he is? Wow? It's ridiculous to even mention Von with Demarcus Ware at this point. That man has 90 plus sacks in 7 years. When Von Miller does it 2-3 yrs in a row then he can mentioned with Suggs and Ware etc.

Right now he's just a second yr player with 1 good year.

Irish Stout
06-27-2012, 01:12 PM
You guys couldn't figure out the Randy Gradishar comment was a metaphor for people gushing all yr about Miller and how unstoppable he is? Wow?

The RG comment wasn't literal!?!? No way.

It's ridiculous to even mention Von with Demarcus Ware at this point. That man has 90 plus sacks in 7 years. When Von Miller does it 2-3 yrs in a row then he can mentioned with Suggs and Ware etc.

So, its ridiculous to evaluate and anticipate any player's potential based on their first year? It would have been pretty foolish of me to look at Demarcus Ware's stellar rookie season (58 tackles and 8 sacks) in 2005 and predict that he would one day be a great player. It would be even more astounding and foolhardy to compare any player's rookie years to any other player. In fact, we fans should just scrap our attempts at talent evaluation. So should all the sports media.

The fact that Von Miller had a rookie year (64 tackles 11.5 sacks) that was arguably better than Ware's rookie year doesn't mean a thing. I'm so sorry that I compared those numbers in my head and compared what I saw on the field in 2005 for the Cowboys and 2011 for the Broncos and came to the conclusion that Von could be one hell of a player if he keeps it up. That was ridiculous.

Right now he's just a second yr player with 1 good year.

Ahhh quit your gushing.


cutthemdown, you usually have great football takes and I am sorry for going all super sarcasm on you on this one. However, I just think that its the main point of the Mane (or any place like this) for the general fan to actually evaluate, grade and judge players. I also think the best way to evaluate any young player is to compare them to their predecessors to help evaluate potential and to track that along the course of their career to determine if they met the potential and output they initially showed.

At this point, who knows what happens with Von. I know he had the hand injury, but his production drop off during that time was a little worrisome to me. That being said, he put up all around great rookie numbers and its hard for people to ignore that or to ignore the motor the guy had on the actual field. He is the kind of player that gets people excited and they want to know now whether he will actually continue to produce and grow from here. Since no one can actually know, we are left with trying to make educated guesses. The best way to do that is to compare the facts we do have on the young player to the output of other great players after their rookie seasons. This leads a lot of people to a hypothetical conclusion. Just like a scientific hypothesis is also based on previous observations, thats what we (fans, sports writers, FO execs) do.

Of course, we have to wait and see if our hypothesis can become a theory (2-4 years out) that can become a law (at retirement). So wait and see goes hand and hand with "lets make reasonable comparisons to arrive at logical, though not yet defined conclusions." Its just the natural process and many of us like to take part in it. Its part of the enjoyment of following sports.

JJG
06-27-2012, 01:30 PM
Typical internet gif/smash talk trash. You are a clown. Have a nice day clown! :rofl:

All your points have been refuted. All your straw-man torn down. All your shell games a fraud.

There was nothing left but gif smack...

Bronco Rob
06-29-2012, 09:38 PM
Kcpud has now officially past up bob as worst queef poster. All he can do is argue with stats when he gets bent over repeatedly switch subjects and cherry pick more. It's comical.





:thumbs:

lonestar
06-29-2012, 09:54 PM
I think when he started his account he messed up his log in, he got the T and P mixed up.. and he is really KCSpud..

cutthemdown
06-30-2012, 12:48 AM
The RG comment wasn't literal!?!? No way.



So, its ridiculous to evaluate and anticipate any player's potential based on their first year? It would have been pretty foolish of me to look at Demarcus Ware's stellar rookie season (58 tackles and 8 sacks) in 2005 and predict that he would one day be a great player. It would be even more astounding and foolhardy to compare any player's rookie years to any other player. In fact, we fans should just scrap our attempts at talent evaluation. So should all the sports media.

The fact that Von Miller had a rookie year (64 tackles 11.5 sacks) that was arguably better than Ware's rookie year doesn't mean a thing. I'm so sorry that I compared those numbers in my head and compared what I saw on the field in 2005 for the Cowboys and 2011 for the Broncos and came to the conclusion that Von could be one hell of a player if he keeps it up. That was ridiculous.



Ahhh quit your gushing.


cutthemdown, you usually have great football takes and I am sorry for going all super sarcasm on you on this one. However, I just think that its the main point of the Mane (or any place like this) for the general fan to actually evaluate, grade and judge players. I also think the best way to evaluate any young player is to compare them to their predecessors to help evaluate potential and to track that along the course of their career to determine if they met the potential and output they initially showed.

At this point, who knows what happens with Von. I know he had the hand injury, but his production drop off during that time was a little worrisome to me. That being said, he put up all around great rookie numbers and its hard for people to ignore that or to ignore the motor the guy had on the actual field. He is the kind of player that gets people excited and they want to know now whether he will actually continue to produce and grow from here. Since no one can actually know, we are left with trying to make educated guesses. The best way to do that is to compare the facts we do have on the young player to the output of other great players after their rookie seasons. This leads a lot of people to a hypothetical conclusion. Just like a scientific hypothesis is also based on previous observations, thats what we (fans, sports writers, FO execs) do.

Of course, we have to wait and see if our hypothesis can become a theory (2-4 years out) that can become a law (at retirement). So wait and see goes hand and hand with "lets make reasonable comparisons to arrive at logical, though not yet defined conclusions." Its just the natural process and many of us like to take part in it. Its part of the enjoyment of following sports.

You made your point lol.

canadianbroncosfan
06-30-2012, 01:38 AM
Oh you wanna play that game huh? Von got 2.5 sacks off the same Jets and Bears teams.
He also got 1.5 sacks off Matt "I hold the ball forever" Cassel and Barry "I'm the worst rated RT in the entire league" Richardson.
He also got 2 sacks on the Chargers OL who had serious problems last year on their OL and didn't even have their LT the 2nd time they played you.
That's 6 sacks that Von got on easy targets.

You remind me of a dumbass....because you are one.

Okay so even if we call those a wash, our guy still doubled up Houston. Good argument.

Bronco Rob
07-12-2012, 09:41 AM
Oakland Raiders: Comparing Carson Palmer to Other AFC West QBs




With just 18 days remaining until training camp starts, news of the Oakland Raiders has been scarce. No no player signings, re-signing, cuts or acquisitions whatsoever. It is indeed, the "slow time" in Oakland.

In this dead time, Raider Nation Times has been doing a series of articles called, Know Your Enemy. David Wilson is covering each team in the AFC West as a whole and Jerry Rump has been doing a position by position breakdown of how each team matches up with the Raiders at each spot on the field.

Now, it's time to discuss the most important position on the field, the quarterback.

Much has been made of AFC West quarterbacks recently. If you believe everything the mainstream sports media tells you, Peyton Manning has turned the Broncos into a Super Bowl contender, Philip Rivers is going to magically turn around his dismal performance in 2011 to lead the Chargers to the promised land and Matt Cassel is being considered one of the most under-rated quarterbacks in the league.

Forgotten in all of this is Raiders' signal-caller, Carson Palmer. No one is talking about him, covering him, interviewing him or giving him any chance to lead the Raiders to the playoffs—or even respectability.

Whatever! Since when has Raider Nation given a hoot about what the mainstream media has to say?

Should Raider Nation expect Carson Palmer to get to the Pro Bowl? Maybe, maybe not. Should Raider Nation expect Palmer to throw for 5,000 yards, 50 touchdowns and zero interceptions? Absolutely not. But, can Raider Nation expect Palmer to perform as well as, or even better than the other quarterbacks in the AFC West?

Absolutely!

The Raiders have more offensive talent than every team in the division, more defensive talent than Denver and San Diego, and the Raiders have the most hungry coaches, the hungriest players and the most motivated general manager in the division by a wide margin. Don't think for one second that head coach Dennis Allen or general manager Reggie McKenzie are going to settle for mediocrity from this 2012 Raiders' squad.

The team and coaches have been put on notice that the "Scholarships" are gone and that every player will have to fight for his job. If any of them think McKenzie and Allen are bluffing with this statement, go ask Stanford Routt and Kamerion Wimbley if the "New Era" of Raiders' management are serious or not!



http://raidernationtimes.com/article.php?id=9003




Hilarious!

broncocalijohn
07-12-2012, 09:49 AM
Reading that, of course Raider Nation doesnt give a hoot what the mainstream media says! They think they are going to win the SuperBowl every season while the experts have them coming at or near the bottom. Mainstream has been right most every time. You would think thier own internet fan site would take the homerism out of the equation but obviously, we get the LOLs with their articles.

Bronco Rob
07-12-2012, 09:57 AM
Reading that, of course Raider Nation doesnt give a hoot what the mainstream media says! They think they are going to win the SuperBowl every season while the experts have them coming at or near the bottom. Mainstream has been right most every time. You would think thier own internet fan site would take the homerism out of the equation but obviously, we get the LOLs with their articles.



The Raiders have more offensive talent than every team in the division, more defensive talent than Denver and San Diego




Hilarious!

Captain 'Dre
07-12-2012, 11:23 AM
David Wilson is covering each team in the AFC West as a whole and Jerry Rump has been doing a position by position breakdown of how each team matches up with the Raiders at each spot on the field.

The next time I feel down about life, I'll just remind myself that things could be worse-- At least my name isn't 'Rump'. :)

Captain 'Dre
07-12-2012, 11:28 AM
Don't think for one second that head coach Dennis Allen or general manager Reggie McKenzie are going to settle for mediocrity from this 2012 Raiders' squad.

Yeah, that sounds familiar. Last year, after Jason Campbell went down with an injury, Hue Jackson asserted "I promise you, this team will not blink!!!"

The Raiders then proceeded to flutter their eyelashes like 5 dollar hookers. Hilarious!

Allen and McKenzie may not "settle for mediocrity" but they won't be able to prevent it.

DontBeMessin
07-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Three pages... THREE!!! And nothing contradicting the predictions that the Raiders are going to wipe their own asses with the Broncos this season...

Three pages - you all must think it will happen then... In agreement with...

bronco militia
07-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Three pages... THREE!!! And nothing contradicting the predictions that the Raiders are going to wipe their own asses with the Broncos this season...

Three pages - you all must think it will happen then... In agreement with...

:raidersux

Tombstone RJ
07-12-2012, 01:22 PM
lol

R-Mac
07-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Raiders... No playoffs since 2002... LOL. That's all.

Captain 'Dre
07-12-2012, 01:59 PM
Three pages... THREE!!! And nothing contradicting the predictions that the Raiders are going to wipe their own asses with the Broncos this season...

Three pages - you all must think it will happen then... In agreement with...

*Yawn!*

No, it's just such a preposterous concept that it's not worth the effort contesting it.

Queersforbroncos69
07-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Raider fans are mean. They take over Invesco and beat all of us Bronco fans up.

Kaylore
07-12-2012, 03:51 PM
Raider fans are mean. They take over Invesco and beat all of us Bronco fans.

::) Thanks, troll.

DontBeMessin
07-12-2012, 04:13 PM
Well, you would think that if you are going to call a Thread "Raiders Suck" you would actually have posts on the subject.

When you were in high school and went into History class and when they started discussing History - did you stand up and shout, "HEY! Your talking about the subject... I figured we'd talk about Biology or something..."

DenverBrit
07-12-2012, 04:22 PM
Well, you would think that if you are going to call a Thread "Raiders Suck" you would actually have posts on the subject.

When you were in high school and went into History class and when they started discussing History - did you stand up and shout, "HEY! Your talking about the subject... I figured we'd talk about Biology or something..."

The Raiders REALLY suck!! ;D Better??

driver
07-13-2012, 02:55 AM
Raiders are going to wipe their own asses

Completely impossible!
Everyone knows that NO RAIDER can even find his own ass in a dark room!Hilarious!

broncocalijohn
07-13-2012, 10:45 AM
And nothing contradicting the predictions that the Raiders are going to wipe their own asses with the Broncos this season...

.

Tough to do when the Raiders will be handcuffed behind their back. How is McClain doing btw?

Keep sweeping the division and then miss out on the playoffs...again. Raiders have history but there is nothing proud of the last 10 years. One of the worst records in football. How does that taste butch?

bronco militia
07-14-2012, 08:06 AM
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maher_tyler
07-14-2012, 11:21 PM
"Raiders have the most hungry coaches"

Hilarious!

Captain 'Dre
07-16-2012, 10:36 AM
Completely impossible!
Everyone knows that NO RAIDER can even find his own ass in a dark room!Hilarious!

...while paradoxically having no difficulty at all locating the asses of others. ???

Captain 'Dre
07-16-2012, 11:06 AM
<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GlnIz8Nj7JI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GlnIz8Nj7JI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

You just KNOW that the guy giving those jerseys as gifts got a spectacular deal on them. Ha!

bronco militia
07-16-2012, 11:21 AM
You just KNOW that the guy giving those jerseys as gifts got a spectacular deal on them. Ha!



hopefully!

"it better not be a Denver shirt"
bwhaha

Bronco Rob
07-23-2012, 04:41 PM
The Oakland Raiders recently signed franchise tagged safety Tyvon Branch to a four-year $26.6 million contract with $17.6 million in guaranteed money. More importantly for the team, Branch's new deal has freed up $3.8 million in salary cap space.

This is just another in a series of roster moves designed to free GM Reggie McKenzie's team from salary cap jail. Among those moves were quarterback Carson Palmer restructuring his contract and allowing the departures in free agency of OLB Kamerion Wimbley (Titans) and RB Michael Bush (Bears).

Looking to February 2013, the Raiders will have 50 players under contract with a combined salary of $130 million. With the NFL's salary cap projected to stay relatively flat at around $122-123 million in 2013, the team has some serious work to do to clear enough space to sign next year's draft picks and fill out their roster.

Who's next in line for Oakland? It is a fair bet that Tyvon Branch may be right back in that chair again in 2013. His contract contains no offset money for next year and with a cap number of $10.9 million, Branch could find himself in talks to redo his recently signed deal.

So much for getting out of "salary cap jail".




http://footballpros.com/content.php/1401-Next-iin-Line-Oakland-Raiders

Bacillus Anthracis
07-23-2012, 06:28 PM
Cap woes aren't usually as bad as they're made out to be. Next season brings a lot of big contracts up for reworking; Richard Seymour comes to mind. There'll be space.

But if we do get bitten by the salary cap, then so be it. It's going to take more than one offseason to fix Al's nutty contracts.

Kaylore
07-23-2012, 10:24 PM
Cap woes aren't usually as bad as they're made out to be. Next season brings a lot of big contracts up for reworking; Richard Seymour comes to mind. There'll be space.

But if we do get bitten by the salary cap, then so be it. It's going to take more than one offseason to fix Al's nutty contracts.

You guys are in an interesting situation. On the one hand, there's chance Palmer can put together a decent offense and if the defense can get to average, maybe they can be a playoff team. On the other hand, Crypt Keeper made so many bad moves, it's almost better to blow the whole thing up and let the new GM build it his way.

Bronco Rob
07-23-2012, 11:09 PM
Carson Palmer on Raiders: 'I think we're a playoff team'



By Will Brinson | Senior NFL and Golf Blogger
July 23, 2012 8:30 am ET



"I think we're a playoff team," Palmer said. "We've got a lot of work to do, but we've been at it in OTAs and minicamps and now training camp is around the corner. Guys have been studying hard and it's go time. There is no cushion or a year to get stuff going. We're ready to come into camp and go out and win as many games as we can."

Exciting," Palmer said when asked to describe the offense. "With Darren McFadden on the field and an offensive line that is hungry, they're going to open up great holes for him. And then a lot of speed on the outside, really fast receivers with a lot of play-action stuff. To have a chance to play for Coach Knapp, I'm excited. He's a very explosive offensive mind and he likes to go after it, he's not going to hold back."

Interestingly, Palmer was asked whether or not the Raiders would be a passing or running attack, and the quarterback's response was a little surprising given that the Raiders just lost their best backup in Michael Bush.

"Run offense," Palmer said. "With McFadden in the backfield you've got to give him his touches. He's got to get his opportunities, because he can put his foot in the ground and get upfield. He can go the distance from anywhere on the field."

McFadden's one of the best backs in football -- when he's healthy. If he can't stay on the field, the Raiders are going to have serious problems scoring points, regardless of how much speed they have at wide receiver.

And the bigger concern should be the AFC West. The Chargers should improve from last year assuming Philip Rivers doesn't repeat his 2011 struggles, the Broncos added Peyton Manning and will be better, and the Chiefs should see a tick up in their win total just based on injury.

It's a pretty wide-open division and Palmer could certainly end up being right. And there's certainly nothing surprising about someone expressing confidence in their squad before the season begins. Just don't expect that everyone will be on the same page as Palmer.







http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19635677/carson-palmer-on-raiders-i-think-were-a-playoff-team

Bacillus Anthracis
07-24-2012, 12:25 PM
McFadden's one of the best backs in football -- when he's healthy. If he can't stay on the field, the Raiders are going to have serious problems scoring points, regardless of how much speed they have at wide receiver.

I would disagree with this if we still had the same offense in place as last year. Without McFadden, with Palmer coming in off the couch, and with 2/3 of our starting WRs out for half of the season, and also having just one running back for the final 7 games of the season, we still found a way to score enough points to win games. It was the D that was the problem.

Anyway, Greg Knapp has taken over as our OC. He's proven to be a good QB coach, but as an OC he's sucked hind teat. I don't necessarily hold his first stint in Oakland against him. Hell, Jamarcus Russel was the quarterback. Everyone coach and player around that fat bastard gets a pass. But in Seattle he was hands down rotten and he had solid talent to work with.

So what's going to be different now? Beats the hell out of me. As time goes on and as the complete picture of Knapp has come out, I personally don't have a lot of confidence in him. The guy has Carson Palmer rolling out and running around behind the LOS. What a f'ing blockhead.

Round hole, square peg. Most of us understand this concept by the time we're old enough to live the reality that indeed, some shapes are not other shapes, and therefore they don't go together. Most discover this at around age 2. Slow learners might be 3 by the time they've figured this out. I think Knapp's 38.

Or maybe he's not a retard and this is just the beginning of Reggie McKenzie burning down the entire house in order to rebuild it in His Own Image--or at least not in Al's image. I won't say that he wants to see the team fail this season but I have a feeling it would be okay with if we took a gigantic crap.

Then: out with Palmer and out with our current wideouts; all of whom were drafted to play in a power run, field stretching offense. Same thing on the defensive side. Eat sh!t on some contracts, get some high round draft picks back, and begin rebuilding.

I hope not. It's not necessary. But if Oakland totally implodes this year, Reggie McKenzie won't lose a minute of sleep over it.





http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19635677/carson-palmer-on-raiders-i-think-were-a-playoff-team[/QUOTE]

Bronco Rob
07-25-2012, 05:22 AM
I would disagree with this if we still had the same offense in place as last year. Without McFadden, with Palmer coming in off the couch, and with 2/3 of our starting WRs out for half of the season, and also having just one running back for the final 7 games of the season, we still found a way to score enough points to win games. It was the D that was the problem.

Anyway, Greg Knapp has taken over as our OC. He's proven to be a good QB coach, but as an OC he's sucked hind teat. I don't necessarily hold his first stint in Oakland against him. Hell, Jamarcus Russel was the quarterback. Everyone coach and player around that fat bastard gets a pass. But in Seattle he was hands down rotten and he had solid talent to work with.

So what's going to be different now? Beats the hell out of me. As time goes on and as the complete picture of Knapp has come out, I personally don't have a lot of confidence in him. The guy has Carson Palmer rolling out and running around behind the LOS. What a f'ing blockhead.

Round hole, square peg. Most of us understand this concept by the time we're old enough to live the reality that indeed, some shapes are not other shapes, and therefore they don't go together. Most discover this at around age 2. Slow learners might be 3 by the time they've figured this out. I think Knapp's 38.

Or maybe he's not a retard and this is just the beginning of Reggie McKenzie burning down the entire house in order to rebuild it in His Own Image--or at least not in Al's image. I won't say that he wants to see the team fail this season but I have a feeling it would be okay with if we took a gigantic crap.

Then: out with Palmer and out with our current wideouts; all of whom were drafted to play in a power run, field stretching offense. Same thing on the defensive side. Eat **** on some contracts, get some high round draft picks back, and begin rebuilding.

I hope not. It's not necessary. But if Oakland totally implodes this year, Reggie McKenzie won't lose a minute of sleep over it.




The raiders haven't had a 1,000 yard receiver since 2005 or had one that made the pro bowl since 2002. The starting TE has two career receptions, McFadden has missed 16 starts in 4 seasons.

Darrius Heyward-Bey 900 yards 4 touchdowns
Denarius Moore 600 yards 5 touchdowns and
Jacoby Ford 279 yards 1 touchdown

Carson Palmer is 50-56 as a starter in the NFL and Tebow has won more playoff games than he has.

The raiders haven't posted a winning record in nine straight seasons, including seven seasons with at least eleven losses, an NFL record. I predict more of the same this season.



:thumbs:

Raider9175
07-25-2012, 06:14 AM
I would disagree with this if we still had the same offense in place as last year. Without McFadden, with Palmer coming in off the couch, and with 2/3 of our starting WRs out for half of the season, and also having just one running back for the final 7 games of the season, we still found a way to score enough points to win games. It was the D that was the problem.

Anyway, Greg Knapp has taken over as our OC. He's proven to be a good QB coach, but as an OC he's sucked hind teat. I don't necessarily hold his first stint in Oakland against him. Hell, Jamarcus Russel was the quarterback. Everyone coach and player around that fat bastard gets a pass. But in Seattle he was hands down rotten and he had solid talent to work with.

So what's going to be different now? Beats the hell out of me. As time goes on and as the complete picture of Knapp has come out, I personally don't have a lot of confidence in him. The guy has Carson Palmer rolling out and running around behind the LOS. What a f'ing blockhead.

Round hole, square peg. Most of us understand this concept by the time we're old enough to live the reality that indeed, some shapes are not other shapes, and therefore they don't go together. Most discover this at around age 2. Slow learners might be 3 by the time they've figured this out. I think Knapp's 38.

Or maybe he's not a retard and this is just the beginning of Reggie McKenzie burning down the entire house in order to rebuild it in His Own Image--or at least not in Al's image. I won't say that he wants to see the team fail this season but I have a feeling it would be okay with if we took a gigantic crap.

Then: out with Palmer and out with our current wideouts; all of whom were drafted to play in a power run, field stretching offense. Same thing on the defensive side. Eat **** on some contracts, get some high round draft picks back, and begin rebuilding.

I hope not. It's not necessary. But if Oakland totally implodes this year, Reggie McKenzie won't lose a minute of sleep over it.





http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19635677/carson-palmer-on-raiders-i-think-were-a-playoff-team[/QUOTE]


Hue Jackson is that you??????????

This Raider offense should be a top five offense. Some points I could see you making but some are pretty idiotic. C Palmer rolling out. Do you not understand that is the offense. IF matt shaub( Palmer way more athletic) can thrive in that system than it no stretch to expect C palmer to do as well or better. Its a very Qb friendly system.

YEs this new offense the Backs and Te's will see a lot more balls thrown there way, but your delusional if you think the deep pass isn't still going to be a big part of the offense. With a healthy DMC, Jones and M Goodson its only going to open up those deep passes even more. C Palmer one of the best deep passers raiders have ever had.

C Palmer not going any where, he will be Raider Qb for the next three years. ( Money says that is so) C Palmer should have his best season he ever had in the NFl in 2012. (if he doesn't than worry about Knapp ability as OC)


Raiders and Reggie MCkenzie took a strength - the offense and are slowing srengthening it even further in there images.( retooling it as they go along)

You clearly see this In the Wr and Oline. Juron Criner would never had been drafted by the Raiders. You might have a 1/2 new Wr corp in 2012. The new additions OF Juron Criner6'3 224, Rod streater 6'3 200 and Derek carrier 6'4 238/ Duke calhoun 6'2 200.
The Oline Raiders added Mike Brisiel- a specialist in this blocking scheme and drafted the best Olineman that fits this blocking system Tony Bergstrom. Both fit this new system perfect. That is not the only thing they did on the oline, as they added Lucas nix, Dan Knapp, Ed Wang and Kevin Haslam who all were made to play in a zone blocking scheme.


All the Raiders Rb's are perfect fits in this scheme. Mike Goodson they say is even better receiver than DMC. You know what you can do with a DMC 6'2 212 and Mike goodson 6'0 212 as both are going to be moving out to wr.

Greg Knapp normally doesn't use his FB as weapons but he would have to be a Moron not to utilize a talent like Marcel reece. A unique weapon he hasn't had in his previous OC jobs.


No one knows what Raiders defense will be like in 2012( has to be a lot better) but this offense should be one of the best. That isn't the case than I agree that's on Greg Knapp.

Raider9175
07-25-2012, 06:48 AM
[/size]




The raiders haven't had a 1,000 yard receiver since 2005 or had one that made the pro bowl since 2002. The starting TE has two career receptions, McFadden has missed 16 starts in 4 seasons.

Darrius Heyward-Bey 900 yards 4 touchdowns
Denarius Moore 600 yards 5 touchdowns and
Jacoby Ford 279 yards 1 touchdown

Carson Palmer is 50-56 as a starter in the NFL and Tebow has won more playoff games than he has.

The raiders haven't posted a winning record in nine straight seasons, including seven seasons with at least eleven losses, an NFL record. I predict more of the same this season.



:thumbs:

Lets look at the Facts. IF Darrius Heyward Bey 24 didn't have the Qb situation he had last year(guy coming off his couch cold after week 7 without knowing the offense, the players, and having no training camp) He would easily have had 1,000 yards last year. He had a breakout year in 2011 after doing nothing his first two years. Improves even more in 2012 and HE justifies why Al Davis took him in the first round.

Denarius Moore was a rookie in 2011. Tell me Brandon marshall numbers as a rookie again.. HE only getting a lot better with more time.(Has chance to be a top five receiver in this league) He's that good.


jacoby Ford the only reason he didn't put up big numbers in 2011 was he had all assortment of injuries that can be attributed to short off season.(when a Guy relies on his blazing speed the shorten off season could have that effect. Did he get all those 227 yards on the broncos. Seems that way as he abused Champ bailey all day in Carson Palmer first start. a healthy Jacoby Ford ion 2012 is putting up some serious numbers(every NFGl player looks like they are playing in slow moition comapare to Ford.

None of those Wr are 25. So again post like this make every Bronco fan look stupid. Not one Wr on the Bronco's is as good as any of these three Raider wide receivers. That is a fact. Btw How many 1,00 season Decker and D thomas have again. Both are lucky they have had 600 yard season. I Like Eric Decker I think he has a chance to be pretty good. D thomas sucks. He not a great route runner and he got alot of his yards because of tebow. Here is what I mean Tebow extended the play by scrambling and D thomas benefited as the coverage broke down. LEts see if that is the case when his numbers don't improve with Peyton manning throwing him the ball. ( what is going to be the excuse than)

Kaylore
07-25-2012, 07:26 AM
Not one Wr on the Bronco's is as good as any of these three Raider wide receivers. That is a fact.

LOL No it isn't! Based on what? Eric Decker caught Eight touchdowns last year with a running back throwing him the ball and scored a touchdown on special teams. Demaryius Thomas had the same number of TD's as Hayward Bey and missed half the season with a broken hand.

The only receiver that worries me is Jacoby Ford. I think when Hayward Bay starts getting challenged more he's going to shut down. I think he's one big hit away from getting alligator arms.

Raider9175
07-25-2012, 07:34 AM
LOL No it isn't! Based on what? Eric Decker caught Eight touchdowns last year with a running back throwing him the ball and scored a touchdown on special teams. Demaryius Thomas had the same number of TD's as Hayward Bey and missed half the season with a broken hand.

The only receiver that worries me is Jacoby Ford. I think when Hayward Bay starts getting challenged more he's going to shut down. I think he's one big hit away from getting alligator arms.

Now TD is the most important stat for a WR(how lame can you Bronco fans be). See plaxico Burress. He did nothing from 20-20 all year for the Jets. Once he got in the redzone he was very effective, So your telling me we should ignore all of that. Just go by his TD total to judge if he a top wr still in this league.


Dhb probably never going to be a big Td guy. Juron Crimner will come in when Raiders get in the redzone to replace DHB. From the 20 - 20 yard line he is always going to be effective.


Sorry Decker and D thomas aren't that good and my point will be proven with Peyton manning the Qb. If manning can't make you look good, than your garbage. (See D thomas)

Kaylore
07-25-2012, 07:40 AM
Dhb probably never going to be a big Td guy. Juron Crimner will come in when Raiders get in the redzone to replace DHB. From the 20 - 20 yard line he is always going to be effective.
LOL What?!?! The whole point of him being drafted was he could score big TD's. Now you're saying he's never going to do that?

Sorry Decker and D thomas aren't that good and my point will be proven with Peyton manning the Qb. If manning can't make you look good, than your garbage. (See D thomas)
Hilarious! How is your point going to be proven? If Manning makes them look better, that proves you right? lol ok! Eric Decker put up excellent numbers in a season where we averaged like 7 completions a game. DT started five games and put up 500 yards and 4 TD's, again, all with Tebow throwing him the ball.

And it's you're, not your.

Raider9175
07-25-2012, 07:54 AM
LOL What?!?! The whole point of him being drafted was he could score big TD's. Now you're saying he's never going to do that?


Hilarious! How is your point going to be proven? If Manning makes them look better, that proves you right? lol ok! Eric Decker put up excellent numbers in a season where we averaged like 7 completions a game. DT started five games and put up 500 yards and 4 TD's, again, all with Tebow throwing him the ball.

And it's you're, not your.

The Fact is DHb has never been a big TD producer.(since he came in to league) . He might never become one. Who cares as long as he effective from 20-20 I can live with a better red zone option(Juron Criner) replacing him).

More facts Decker and D Thomas between them have one season where they put up 600 yards.(one season). D Thomas is a poor route runner. You're in serious denial if you think Tim Tebow improvising didn't help D thomas be more effective, than he would have been with a pure passer throwing him the football.
Your Wr corp is a joke and no where in the Raiders wr corp class. P manning or no Peyton manning. Even he can't make chicken salad, out of chicken crap.

Kaylore
07-25-2012, 08:08 AM
The Fact is DHb has never been a big TD producer.(since he came in to league) . He might never become one. Who cares as long as he effective from 20-20 I can live with a better red zone option(Juron Criner) replacing him).

More facts Decker and D Thomas between them have one season where they put up 600 yards.(one season). D Thomas is a poor route runner. You're in serious denial if you think Tim Tebow improvising didn't help D thomas be more effective, than he would have been with a pure passer throwing him the football.
Your Wr corp is a joke and no where in the Raiders wr corp class. P manning or no Peyton manning. Even he can't make chicken salad, out of chicken crap.

What are you talking about? Did you even watch us play football last year? How did Tebow improvising, or essentially running up field, make DT's stats look better? I can think of one play where Tebow scrambled and actually threw to Thomas and that was the Vikings game. And it was a ten yard pass that DT took to the house running over defenders. Please tell me all the plays that Tebow "improvised" to artificially inflate DT's stats. No seriously! Name one.

And where are you getting your stats? Last season Decker and Thomas put up 1100 yards, again, this is a season where we threw the ball about ten times a game. Decker had 56 yards and 1 touchdown in a game we completed 2 passes.

So for the record, are you trying to argue with that few chances and with Manning throwing the ball that Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas are going to do worse? Man, if only Tebow were still here "improvising" DT's stats up!

Wow you are stupid. Hilarious!

Kaylore
07-25-2012, 08:30 AM
Raider Fan: Your receivers suck!

Me: They have better stats than your receivers with Tebow throwing them the ball.

Raider fan: Yeah but Tebow made them look better than they are with his improvising. With Manning throwing them the ball they will be exposed.

Me: lol wut?

Drunken.Broncoholic
07-25-2012, 08:36 AM
[/size]




The raiders haven't had a 1,000 yard receiver since 2005 or had one that made the pro bowl since 2002. The starting TE has two career receptions, McFadden has missed 16 starts in 4 seasons.

Darrius Heyward-Bey 900 yards 4 touchdowns
Denarius Moore 600 yards 5 touchdowns and
Jacoby Ford 279 yards 1 touchdown

Carson Palmer is 50-56 as a starter in the NFL and Tebow has won more playoff games than he has.

The raiders haven't posted a winning record in nine straight seasons, including seven seasons with at least eleven losses, an NFL record. I predict more of the same this season.



:thumbs:



This is all that needs to be said to a delusional raider fan. Not even a blender could spin this Horrendous rap sheet into something positive.

bronco militia
07-25-2012, 08:49 AM
Raider Fan: Your receivers suck!

Me: They have better stats than your receivers with Tebow throwing them the ball.

Raider fan: Yeah but Tebow made them look better than they are with his improvising. With Manning throwing them the ball they will be exposed.

Me: lol wut?

Hilarious!

Irish Stout
07-25-2012, 08:52 AM
The Fact is DHb has never been a big TD producer.(since he came in to league) . He might never become one. Who cares as long as he effective from 20-20 I can live with a better red zone option(Juron Criner) replacing him).

More facts Decker and D Thomas between them have one season where they put up 600 yards.(one season). D Thomas is a poor route runner. You're in serious denial if you think Tim Tebow improvising didn't help D thomas be more effective, than he would have been with a pure passer throwing him the football.
Your Wr corp is a joke and no where in the Raiders wr corp class. P manning or no Peyton manning. Even he can't make chicken salad, out of chicken crap.

WOW! Just amazing!

If Tebow is so great at improving crappy WRs, imagine what he would've done if the Raiders had made the trade for him and he was on your team with all that amazing WR talent. I bet he would have turned your chicken salad WRs into three pound BLTs. Delicious!

broncocalijohn
07-25-2012, 09:22 AM
Raider Fan: Your receivers suck!

Me: They have better stats than your receivers with Tebow throwing them the ball.

Raider fan: Yeah but Tebow made them look better than they are with his improvising. With Manning throwing them the ball they will be exposed.

Me: lol wut?

Dont try to rationalize a Faiders fan comments. He is now the new KCStud.

broncocalijohn
07-25-2012, 09:26 AM
The Fact is DHb has never been a big TD producer.(since he came in to league) . He might never become one. Who cares as long as he effective from 20-20 I can live with a better red zone option(Juron Criner) replacing him).

More facts Decker and D Thomas between them have one season where they put up 600 yards.(one season). D Thomas is a poor route runner. You're in serious denial if you think Tim Tebow improvising didn't help D thomas be more effective, than he would have been with a pure passer throwing him the football.
Your Wr corp is a joke and no where in the Raiders wr corp class. P manning or no Peyton manning. Even he can't make chicken salad, out of chicken crap.

So you get a top 10 pick to catch TDs and he doesn't do that so you now have to realize this fact and go get another guy to do what your big time, top 10 pick was supposed to do.
You are in serious denial if you think having Tebow at QB is actually helping out wide receivers improve. DT and Decker will thrive in a Manning QB system.

As you would type ,"YOUR retarded" (easy there grammar nazi)

Raider9175
07-25-2012, 09:46 AM
Raider Fan: Your receivers suck!

Me: They have better stats than your receivers with Tebow throwing them the ball.

Raider fan: Yeah but Tebow made them look better than they are with his improvising. With Manning throwing them the ball they will be exposed.

Me: lol wut?

A moron should never call someone else stupid. Explain this. http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=HEY279111&player2=MOO260498&player3=DEC487021&player4=THO095855&position=widereceiver&playerOne=Darrius+Heyward-Bey&playerTwo=Denarius+Moore&playerThree=Eric+Decker&playerFour=Demaryius+Thomas

Irish Stout
07-25-2012, 09:57 AM
A moron should never call someone else stupid. Explain this. http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=HEY279111&player2=MOO260498&player3=DEC487021&player4=THO095855&position=widereceiver&playerOne=Darrius+Heyward-Bey&playerTwo=Denarius+Moore&playerThree=Eric+Decker&playerFour=Demaryius+Thomas

This explains it:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=PAL249055&player2=TEB603856&player3=null&player4=null&position=quarterback&playerOne=Carson+Palmer&playerTwo=Tim+Tebow&playerThree=&playerFour=

Raider9175
07-25-2012, 09:59 AM
So you get a top 10 pick to catch TDs and he doesn't do that so you now have to realize this fact and go get another guy to do what your big time, top 10 pick was supposed to do.
You are in serious denial if you think having Tebow at QB is actually helping out wide receivers improve. DT and Decker will thrive in a Manning QB system.

As you would type ,"YOUR retarded" (easy there grammar nazi)

Again judging a player on his TD total is assine. I used the perfect example- Plaxico Burress as why that is the least important stats for a wr. Also a Wr catches a bomb inside the 10. You have a rb that can get it in the endzone. Are you going to take a chance putting it up(turnover) or pounding the rock.

Your Wr corp is utter garbage and not even Peyton manning going to change that fact.
You don't think Tebow (a big part of the running game) defenses weren't cheating up more defenders to defend that. That doesn't open up the passing game when you elect to surprise them and throw it.

Okay that is what we call common sense, something Bronco fans don't have.

Can't wait till week four when the raiders come away with another victory in our home away from home.(when was the last time the Bronco's beat the Raider's at home)