Walker wins his recall

[That One Guy]

LOL

Way to show everyone up, union folks.

Remember when so many here were talking about his recall like a foregone event? I'll concede the fundraising could've been a big part of it but after all the drama that the pro-union folks created, it really seems like this wasn't even a contest from the numbers I've seen.

Just a few people screaming loudly and wasting everyone's time, it appears.

[spdirty]

Bye bye public sector unions.

[tnedator]

Bye bye public sector unions.

We can only hope...

[barryr]

But the liberals will do their usual: after they lose, time to litigate and take Walker or whoever to court. Just watch their typical response. But at least WI woke up and hopefully more states will as well.

[spdirty]

But the liberals will do their usual: after they lose, time to litigate and take Walker or whoever to court. Just watch their typical response. But at least WI woke up and hopefully more states will as well.

9 point win. There isn't really anything to challenge.

[barryr]

9 point win. There isn't really anything to challenge.

They will do or find anything they can. They will not go quietly. They will find a way to take Walker to court and/or investigated or try at least. They know what a big loss this is and will do everything they can to reverse this. I know them too well.

[ant1999e]

Idiots in Wisconsin. How dare they go against the unions and the liberals. Why were they even allowed to vote? The pres needs to pass an executive order to solve this.

[spdirty]

They will do or find anything they can. They will not go quietly. They will find a way to take Walker to court and/or investigated or try at least. They know what a big loss this is and will do everything they can to reverse this. I know them too well.
It was a 200,000 vote win in an election that had 2.1 million voters. No court challenge will be taken seriously. No recount will happen. All they'll do is embarrass themselves if they try to challenge this. They do that when they lose by 3 points or less.

[Rigs11]

Well when you get that much outside money to spend the results arent a surprise.

[tnedator]

It was a 200,000 vote win in an election that had 2.1 million voters. No court challenge will be taken seriously. No recount will happen. All they'll do is embarrass themselves if they try to challenge this. They do that when they lose by 3 points or less.

Supposedly over on the Democratic Underground they were screaming about how the vote was rigged and there will be legal challenges to because of the Republicans rigging the election. Unbelievable.

[barryr]

Well when you get that much outside money to spend the results arent a surprise.

Meanwhile Obama has been getting and spending how much money? More than the last 5 presidents combined. Bad for republicans to get so much money to win an election, but for democrats, no problem.

[barryr]

Supposedly over on the Democratic Underground they were screaming about how the vote was rigged and there will be legal challenges to because of the Republicans rigging the election. Unbelievable.

Of course, it is just as I stated before. They will not go quietly and will try every trick in the book to get this reversed. That is their way.

[Blart]

The GOP now has a blueprint for destroying the middle class:

1) Appear moderate to get elected, backed by billionaire $$
2) Divide and conquer
3) If people get angry you lied, just ask your billionaires for more $$ to avoid recall.


Wisconsin has proven that money wins elections. Unless we somehow repeal Citizens United, this is now the norm.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/527233_476533582372158_1907709273_n.jpg

[Boomhauer]

Well when you get that much outside money to spend the results arent a surprise.
Are you suggesting the Union machine isn't "outside money"?
http://memeorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dr-zoidbergs-butthurt-cream.jpg

[barryr]

The GOP now has a blueprint for destroying the middle class:

1) Appear moderate to get elected, backed by billionaire $$
2) Divide and conquer
3) If people get angry you lied, just ask your billionaires for more $$ to avoid recall.


Wisconsin has proven that money wins elections. Unless we somehow repeal Citizens United, this is now the norm.

So Obama will give back the millions he is received(more than the previous 5 presidents combined) for this coming election as well or is that money somehow different? Obama has done so much for the middle class by the way. Unemployment shy high, underemployment shy high, and people still losing their houses. Obama has done so well at unifying this country too.

[barryr]

Are you suggesting the Union machine isn't "outside money"?
http://memeorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dr-zoidbergs-butthurt-cream.jpg

Of course, they just don't get it. But their philosophy of life is quite simple and childish: Money for republicans is bad, money for democrats is good. And nobody will ever convince them otherwise.

[tnedator]

Of course, they just don't get it. But their philosophy of life is quite simple and childish: Money for republicans is bad, money for democrats is good. And nobody will ever convince them otherwise.

Yep, for years the flow of public money to public unions (or non-public unions with state/federal contracts) to Democratic candidates was all good, not to mention busing people in, thuggery and intimidation, etc. However, when Citizen's United allows Republicans to use corporate dollars to offset the union spending (ignoring the fact that a LOT Of the money goes to Dem's), Dems cry foul.

[barryr]

Yep, for years the flow of public money to public unions (or non-public unions with state/federal contracts) to Democratic candidates was all good, not to mention busing people in, thuggery and intimidation, etc. However, when Citizen's United allows Republicans to use corporate dollars to offset the union spending (ignoring the fact that a LOT Of the money goes to Dem's), Dems cry foul.

Word around the net is they tried that again in Wisconsin, busing in union members from Detroit to try to vote trying to take advantage of WI not having voter ID required to vote. But the republicans must have cheated though. Will Obama give back all of his money he has received since getting big money is now seen as a bad thing, or is that just for republicans? We know the answer to that one :~ohyah!:

[Dukes]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/527233_476533582372158_1907709273_n.jpg

So you're saying Walker has something in common with Obama?

[Phantom]

1/3 of Union households voted for Walker. Unemployment is down, a budget deficit is now a budget surplus. They are actually better off than a year ago, so they voted based on reality not utopian fantasyland ideals.

The money discrepancies would be less had the Dems figured they had a chance. No - the Dem money was kept on the sideline. Seriously 3.9 million raised - it was a losing effort and was actually smart to withhold the contributions and send them elsewhere.

Please send a 'Walker' to Omaha for mayor. We are fooked by public unions here.

[Garcia Bronco]

This doesn't surprise. The counties that complied with the Walker plan are in better financial shape than the ones that didn't. Let it be known that the voters are not as stupid as some think.

[Garcia Bronco]

Well when you get that much outside money to spend the results arent a surprise.

I think you need to read up on the postive things that the Walker plan has accomplished in the state of WI.

[ant1999e]

1/3 of Union households voted for Walker. Unemployment is down, a budget deficit is now a budget surplus. They are actually better off than a year ago, so they voted based on reality not utopian fantasyland ideals.

The money discrepancies would be less had the Dems figured they had a chance. No - the Dem money was kept on the sideline. Seriously 3.9 million raised - it was a losing effort and was actually smart to withhold the contributions and send them elsewhere.

Please send a 'Walker' to Omaha for mayor. We are fooked by public unions here.

Same.here in North Las Vegas. The mayor made sweetheart deals with the public unions and now we.can't afford them.
How's Omaha? I lived in Bellevue for most of my Air Force career.

[Garcia Bronco]

Public sector unions represent one of the greatest threats to our future financial stability. They need to be abolished. This isn't 1900. Everyone has access to the courts. Every basic employment need is a matter of federal law, and public sector Unions represent a huge conflict of interest between unions and government leaders. Today, more people are in public sector unions than private unions.

[cutthemdown]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/527233_476533582372158_1907709273_n.jpg

The main thing about the money is that Obama and the DNC abandoned the recall effort once it looked like Walkers ideas were working, the economy there was improving. They didn't want to make an issue out of it because they didn't want the rest of the country to hear how things are improving their since the Walker admin took over. This is a huge defeat for the democrats. No doubt though the RNC stepped up, the DNC stepped out, and Walker ran away with it.

[alkemical]

Let them eat cake!

[Smiling Assassin27]

Why in the world did nobody give a rip when Obama spent LOADS of money to win the presidency, but now people blame this election on money. Money is down the list on reasons the Dems screwed themselves last night. In short, Democrats lost because Democrats were being Democrats. First, they had a bad candidate. Barrett's a boob. He's soft on crime, closed minded, and ineffectual as a leader. Second, they blatantly attempted to manipulate democracy. Walker was elected by the people based on what he said he'd do. He did it and Democrats did their typical whine. They applied the false idea that because they disagree with a policy move, that they are entitled (there's that word again) to recall Walker. The people--who elected Walker--saw right through this. Recalling a sitting governor simply because you disagree with him is not ok. Third, Democrats were petulant, childish, crude, crass, and antagonistic toward mainstream Wisconsinites. Anyone who dared disagree with their stance on public employee unions got yelled at, spat on, beat up, and hated on. Normal people don't act like this and the people who elected Walker the first time didn't appreciate those tactics. Fourth, the Wisconsin legislators that walked out and hid during such a tumultuous time in Wisconsin, represent what the Democratic party is--cowards. Voters don't like cowards and Scott Walker--after making the decisions he did--is no coward. He may not be right on all issues but he's the antithesis of those pu$$y democrat legislators. Finally, Walker's plan worked, plain and simple. He got MORE votes this time than he did in the general election in 2010! This should tell you that more Wisconsinites are better off now than then. Plain and simple, the Dems really blew this badly. Early on, SOMEBODY in their party or the national party should've had a come to jesus talk with these fools. It was NEVER a good idea and yet the usual suspects poured HUGE amounts of money and capital into this and got slapped good.

Will it make Dems rethink? Of course not. The coccoon they live in is such that they'll lie to themselves about how their messaging was off, voters are dumber than they are, yada yada. Personally, I'd tell Dems to stay the same lovable idiots you are. The world is finally getting a true picture of you.

[houghtam]

Why in the world did nobody give a rip when Obama spent LOADS of money to win the presidency, but now people blame this election on money. Money is down the list on reasons the Dems screwed themselves last night. In short, Democrats lost because Democrats were being Democrats. First, they had a bad candidate. Barrett's a boob. He's soft on crime, closed minded, and ineffectual as a leader. Second, they blatantly attempted to manipulate democracy. Walker was elected by the people based on what he said he'd do. He did it and Democrats did their typical whine. They applied the false idea that because they disagree with a policy move, that they are entitled (there's that word again) to recall Walker. The people--who elected Walker--saw right through this. Recalling a sitting governor simply because you disagree with him is not ok. Third, Democrats were petulant, childish, crude, crass, and antagonistic toward mainstream Wisconsinites. Anyone who dared disagree with their stance on public employee unions got yelled at, spat on, beat up, and hated on. Normal people don't act like this and the people who elected Walker the first time didn't appreciate those tactics. Fourth, the Wisconsin legislators that walked out and hid during such a tumultuous time in Wisconsin, represent what the Democratic party is--cowards. Voters don't like cowards and Scott Walker--after making the decisions he did--is no coward. He may not be right on all issues but he's the antithesis of those pu$$y democrat legislators. Finally, Walker's plan worked, plain and simple. He got MORE votes this time than he did in the general election in 2010! This should tell you that more Wisconsinites are better off now than then. Plain and simple, the Dems really blew this badly. Early on, SOMEBODY in their party or the national party should've had a come to jesus talk with these fools. It was NEVER a good idea and yet the usual suspects poured HUGE amounts of money and capital into this and got slapped good.

Will it make Dems rethink? Of course not. The coccoon they live in is such that they'll lie to themselves about how their messaging was off, voters are dumber than they are, yada yada. Personally, I'd tell Dems to stay the same lovable idiots you are. The word is finally getting a true picture of you.

No one's complaining about the amount of money raised. It's that 3/4 of the money Walker used was given to him by people who will not be in his constituency. It sets a dangerous precedent. But then again, so did corporate personhood and allowing corporations to financially support candidates without any regulation.

[barryr]

The main thing about the money is that Obama and the DNC abandoned the recall effort once it looked like Walkers ideas were working, the economy there was improving. They didn't want to make an issue out of it because they didn't want the rest of the country to hear how things are improving their since the Walker admin took over. This is a huge defeat for the democrats. No doubt though the RNC stepped up, the DNC stepped out, and Walker ran away with it.

No question Obama wanted no part of WI, especially the part I highlighted.

[alkemical]

No one's complaining about the amount of money raised. It's that 3/4 of the money Walker used was given to him by people who will not be in his constituency. It sets a dangerous precedent. But then again, so did corporate personhood and allowing corporations to financially support candidates without any regulation.

http://www.disinfo.com/2012/06/beyond-citizens-united-politics-is-an-industry-not-just-a-campaign/

Beyond Citizens United: Politics Is an Industry, Not Just A Campaign

[barryr]

No one's complaining about the amount of money raised. It's that 3/4 of the money Walker used was given to him by people who will not be in his constituency. It sets a dangerous precedent. But then again, so did corporate personhood and allowing corporations to financially support candidates without any regulation.

So when Obama was getting tons of money from foreigners in his last election, not to mention this one, you cried foul? Sure.

[cutthemdown]

No question Obama wanted no part of WI, especially the part I highlighted.

Obama basically bailed on them because he knew they were going to lose, should lose, and the recall was a bad idea. It paints dems as sore losers who will waste taxpayer money just to try and change an outcome they don't like.

[barryr]

Obama basically bailed on them because he knew they were going to lose, should lose, and the recall was a bad idea. It paints dems as sore losers who will waste taxpayer money just to try and change an outcome they don't like.

But they will waste more, they don't care. They will use more union dues to file as many lawsuits as possible. That is the Alinsky way.

[Smiling Assassin27]

In Wisconisn, AFSCME membership has declined by 34,000 and by 6000 in the Wisconsin teachers union. I can't help but think had the unions actually taken care of their members rather than pour all their money into this recall sinkhole, they would've been able to withstand this loss more or less intact. But when unions become political machines, rather than member-driven entities, the ones that get screwed are the ones that pay their dues. If the WI union members are smart, they'll recall their own leadership after this showing.

[houghtam]

In Wisconisn, AFSCME membership has declined by 34,000 and by 6000 in the Wisconsin teachers union. I can't help but think had the unions actually taken care of their members rather than pour all their money into this recall sinkhole, they would've been able to withstand this loss more or less intact. But when unions become political machines, rather than member-driven entities, the ones that get screwed are the ones that pay their dues. If the WI union members are smart, they'll recall their own leadership after this showing.

Okay so let me get this straight.

Unions becoming political machines = bad

Corporations becoming political machines = ...not bad?

I see...

[barryr]

In Wisconisn, AFSCME membership has declined by 34,000 and by 6000 in the Wisconsin teachers union. I can't help but think had the unions actually taken care of their members rather than pour all their money into this recall sinkhole, they would've been able to withstand this loss more or less intact. But when unions become political machines, rather than member-driven entities, the ones that get screwed are the ones that pay their dues. If the WI union members are smart, they'll recall their own leadership after this showing.

Yep, spot on ^5

[alkemical]

Okay so let me get this straight.

Unions becoming political machines = bad

Corporations becoming political machines = ...not bad?

I see...

I think his point was:

If the unions took better care of their members, and not focused on the biz side of politics - most of the issues with unions...wouldn't be an issue.

I believe in the idea of unions & what they're supposed to represent. The problem is they've become self interested, instead of the focus being on 'labor'.

[peacepipe]

I think his point was:

If the unions took better care of their members, and not focused on the biz side of politics - most of the issues with unions...wouldn't be an issue.I believe in the idea of unions & what they're supposed to represent. The problem is they've become self interested, instead of the focus being on 'labor'.they are not seperate issues. Politicians can make laws hurting labor,as seen in wisconsin. unions can't put their heads in the sand & pretend politicians can't affect labor.

[alkemical]

they are not seperate issues. Politicians can make laws hurting labor,as seen in wisconsin. unions can't put their heads in the sand & pretend politicians can't affect labor.

Unions are less interested in labor, than in self preservation/interests.

That's the point & context. There are all sorts of examples of unions doing things NOT in their constiuents best interest. (See AFSCME & Rendell in PA for one case.)

[gyldenlove]

Bye bye public sector unions.

He lost control of the senate, so we will see how that affects the legislative process.

[Pony Boy]

Well when you get that much outside money to spend the results arent a surprise.

Yep, let's talk about outside money ........ Hilarious!

[gyldenlove]

The main thing about the money is that Obama and the DNC abandoned the recall effort once it looked like Walkers ideas were working, the economy there was improving. They didn't want to make an issue out of it because they didn't want the rest of the country to hear how things are improving their since the Walker admin took over. This is a huge defeat for the democrats. No doubt though the RNC stepped up, the DNC stepped out, and Walker ran away with it.

Meh, Walker is nothing special. In the 12 months before he got into office unemployment in Wisconsin dropped from 9.2% to 7.7%, in the first 12 months after he got into office it dropped from 7.7% to 7.0%. Things were improving before he ever got into power.

[alkemical]

Meh, Walker is nothing special. In the 12 months before he got into office unemployment in Wisconsin dropped from 9.2% to 7.7%, in the first 12 months after he got into office it dropped from 7.7% to 7.0%. Things were improving before he ever got into power.

You notice how marginal the conversation is with regard to Walker? It's been whittled down to talking points, and getting people to ask the wrong questions.

[ant1999e]

I think his point was:

If the unions took better care of their members, and not focused on the biz side of politics - most of the issues with unions...wouldn't be an issue.

I believe in the idea of unions & what they're supposed to represent. The problem is they've become self interested, instead of the focus being on 'labor'.

I completely agree with this.

[houghtam]

I think his point was:

If the unions took better care of their members, and not focused on the biz side of politics - most of the issues with unions...wouldn't be an issue.

I believe in the idea of unions & what they're supposed to represent. The problem is they've become self interested, instead of the focus being on 'labor'.

I believe in the idea of free speech. I don't always agree with how it is implemented. That doesn't mean I do away with free speech.

There are problems with unions, yes. That doesn't mean the government should be in the business of breaking them up, especially when it's being done under the guise of reforming the public sector, when in reality it's being done to divide and conquer, get rid of the remaining bastions of democratic votes, and turning Wisconsin into a red state.

[gyldenlove]

You notice how marginal the conversation is with regard to Walker? It's been whittled down to talking points, and getting people to ask the wrong questions.

It is like everything else, a pissing contest. People who have no connection to Walker or Wisconsin and some times a personal interest that is opposite to Walkers policies will defend him tooth and nail because he is labeled as Republican - likewise people will renounce him as being just a hair short of the antichrist even though they are in a situation where some of his policies would benefit them because they label themselves as democrats.

Political debate in a two party system is dead, it tends to take on an eerie similarity to two groups of kindergardners alternatingly yelling "Nuh uh" and "Yeah uh" at each other.

[alkemical]

I believe in the idea of free speech. I don't always agree with how it is implemented. That doesn't mean I do away with free speech.

There are problems with unions, yes. That doesn't mean the government should be in the business of breaking them up, especially when it's being done under the guise of reforming the public sector, when in reality it's being done to divide and conquer, get rid of the remaining bastions of democratic votes, and turning Wisconsin into a red state.

Understand i'm not disagreeing with you - What i am saying is that if the unions did a better job of being unions, & not self interested corporations - the unions wouldn't be in declining membership and relevancy.

[alkemical]

It is like everything else, a pissing contest. People who have no connection to Walker or Wisconsin and some times a personal interest that is opposite to Walkers policies will defend him tooth and nail because he is labeled as Republican - likewise people will renounce him as being just a hair short of the antichrist even though they are in a situation where some of his policies would benefit them because they label themselves as democrats.

Political debate in a two party system is dead, it tends to take on an eerie similarity to two groups of kindergardners alternatingly yelling "Nuh uh" and "Yeah uh" at each other.

I often joke (in seriousness) with my friends that: "We're just really big 5 year olds".

I don't understand the sycophant mentality, or why people accept fascism. I don't understand the Stockholm syndrome.

[barryr]

It is interesting how these things work. The main headline about this in the Washington Post is Walker wins in a "close vote." So winning by 7 points is close now? When Obama beat McCain in 2008 by that same 7 points, was that considered "close?" Hmm.

[tnedator]

He lost control of the senate, so we will see how that affects the legislative process.

I thought the Senate was out of session until the November elections. Of course, I don't know if the seats the dems won are up for re-election this November, but it might be a moot point.

[gyldenlove]

I thought the Senate was out of session until the November elections. Of course, I don't know if the seats the dems won are up for re-election this November, but it might be a moot point.

They will be now, Walker has called for emergency legislative sessions before and I doubt he would be above doing it again if he felt he was going to lose his majority.

[gyldenlove]

It is interesting how these things work. The main headline about this in the Washington Post is Walker wins in a "close vote." So winning by 7 points is close now? When Obama beat McCain in 2008 by that same 7 points, was that considered "close?" Hmm.

Obama pistolwhipped Mccain to the tune of a 38 point difference in electorates.

[orinjkrush]

the capitalists have done a wonderful job in perpetuating several myths:

1) any government is the problem; (i.e. no constraints on capitalists);
2) any union is the problem; (i.e. no constraints on capitalists);
3) employee pensions are outrageous (i.e. minimize fiscal responsibilities of capitalists);
4) public entitlements are outrageous (i.e. minimize fiscal responsibilities of capitalists);
5) environmental concerns are outrageous (i.e. minimize fiscal responsibilities of capitalists);
6) capitalists are job creators (i.e. the true engine of advanced civilization);
7) product liability civil suits are outrageous (i.e. minimize responsibilities of capitalists);
8) capitalists are protectors of small business (i.e. help their growth and survival);
ad nauseum....
However, another side of the argument is:

1) laissez faire capitalism (via the banksters) transfers all wealth to the rich, now bankrupting nations;
2) unions have improved working conditions everywhere and always;
3) capitalists have bankrupted private pensions and now are targeting public pensions;
4) public entitlements pale in comparison to elite entitlements;
5) capitalists historically rape and pillage the earth and continue wherever they can;
6) capitalists destroy jobs (variable costs) at every opportunity. (the most efficient corporation has no employees but merely generates money (e.g. banks and insurers);
7) dangerous and deadly products and services continue to be offered to the market despite CPSC and other ombudsmen; (caveat emptor...really? try reading the small print)
8) capitalists consume small businesses at every opportunity (at least the 20% that don't fail each year);

just like our constitution is more effective than other systems of governance because of checks and balances, so too, capitalism NEEDS strong checks and balances via unions and government to be effective. each needs to balance the other.

The governor is a classic capitalist megaphone. the pity is the fools who can't see the other side.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

^

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182505_10151020679571125_1158027521_n.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No one's complaining about the amount of money raised. It's that 3/4 of the money Walker used was given to him by people who will not be in his constituency. It sets a dangerous precedent. But then again, so did corporate personhood and allowing corporations to financially support candidates without any regulation.

FTW. :thumbsup:

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/538392_324787267598288_10293871_n.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The main thing about the money is that Obama and the DNC abandoned the recall effort once it looked like Walkers ideas were working, the economy there was improving. They didn't want to make an issue out of it because they didn't want the rest of the country to hear how things are improving their since the Walker admin took over. This is a huge defeat for the democrats. No doubt though the RNC stepped up, the DNC stepped out, and Walker ran away with it.

L0L! :laugh:

"Improving" for whom?

The Koch Brothers?

You watch too much Faux News.

[alkemical]

the capitalists have done a wonderful job in perpetuating several myths:

1) any government is the problem; (i.e. no constraints on capitalists);
2) any union is the problem; (i.e. no constraints on capitalists);
3) employee pensions are outrageous (i.e. minimize fiscal responsibilities of capitalists);
4) public entitlements are outrageous (i.e. minimize fiscal responsibilities of capitalists);
5) environmental concerns are outrageous (i.e. minimize fiscal responsibilities of capitalists);
6) capitalists are job creators (i.e. the true engine of advanced civilization);
7) product liability civil suits are outrageous (i.e. minimize responsibilities of capitalists);
8) capitalists are protectors of small business (i.e. help their growth and survival);
ad nauseum....
However, another side of the argument is:

1) laissez faire capitalism (via the banksters) transfers all wealth to the rich, now bankrupting nations;
2) unions have improved working conditions everywhere and always;
3) capitalists have bankrupted private pensions and now are targeting public pensions;
4) public entitlements pale in comparison to elite entitlements;
5) capitalists historically rape and pillage the earth and continue wherever they can;
6) capitalists destroy jobs (variable costs) at every opportunity. (the most efficient corporation has no employees but merely generates money (e.g. banks and insurers);
7) dangerous and deadly products and services continue to be offered to the market despite CPSC and other ombudsmen; (caveat emptor...really? try reading the small print)
8) capitalists consume small businesses at every opportunity (at least the 20% that don't fail each year);

just like our constitution is more effective than other systems of governance because of checks and balances, so too, capitalism NEEDS strong checks and balances via unions and government to be effective. each needs to balance the other.

The governor is a classic capitalist megaphone. the pity is the fools who can't see the other side.

+rep

[Garcia Bronco]

they are not seperate issues. Politicians can make laws hurting labor,as seen in wisconsin. unions can't put their heads in the sand & pretend politicians can't affect labor.

Except it's actually better for everyone is Wisconsin right now excluding those areas that did not adopt (contractually) the changes in the Walker Law. These changes have helpped Wisconsin get their state debt under control/

[Garcia Bronco]

Meh, Walker is nothing special. In the 12 months before he got into office unemployment in Wisconsin dropped from 9.2% to 7.7%, in the first 12 months after he got into office it dropped from 7.7% to 7.0%. Things were improving before he ever got into power.

Not from a debt perspective.

[cutthemdown]

Meh, Walker is nothing special. In the 12 months before he got into office unemployment in Wisconsin dropped from 9.2% to 7.7%, in the first 12 months after he got into office it dropped from 7.7% to 7.0%. Things were improving before he ever got into power.

He turned the budget into a surplus from what I read. He's done a nice job. Also when unemployment is high it's usually easy to knock points off. As it dips it gets tougher. That is why Romney taking Mass from 6.9 to 5.9 was actually really good. Walker also has done a nice job and got rewarded by voters who will probably go Obama unless he loses more ground. This is a political defeat for unions no doubt about it. For public ones anyways. You can see repubs starting to court private unions by attacking mostly public ones. Great strategy because private sector unions feel sort of neglected by dems. Most of the stimulus went to private sector unions.

[Blart]

Take that, teachers, janitors, public workers! You Reaganites sure handed it to them! Way to stand up for those poor billionaires.

[gyldenlove]

Not from a debt perspective.

Not that hard to cut debt on the back of a 2.5% point decrease in unemployment - they would have done that without a govenor.

[gyldenlove]

He turned the budget into a surplus from what I read. He's done a nice job. Also when unemployment is high it's usually easy to knock points off. As it dips it gets tougher. That is why Romney taking Mass from 6.9 to 5.9 was actually really good. Walker also has done a nice job and got rewarded by voters who will probably go Obama unless he loses more ground. This is a political defeat for unions no doubt about it. For public ones anyways. You can see repubs starting to court private unions by attacking mostly public ones. Great strategy because private sector unions feel sort of neglected by dems. Most of the stimulus went to private sector unions.

Nothing changed in terms of unemployment trends when Walker entered office, they were on a steep decline in unemployment that continued and would have continued even if they had elected Brett Favre.

Given that unemployment dropped by nearly 25% over a 2 year period (2010-2011) you would expect the budget to improve dramatically.

[mhgaffney]

According to this writer -- the vote in Wisconsin was tainted by a "red shift.."

MHG


With the exit polls—as usual—”adjusted,” Walker “wins” Wisconsin! (Who’s surprised?)

http://markcrispinmiller.com/
June 6, 2012

From Jonathan Simon:

What we got tonight in Wisconsin was the same old stench, coming from the same old corner of the room. To wit, there was a huge turnout (highly favorable to the Democratic candidate Barrett), in fact they’re still waiting in line to vote in Milwaukee and elsewhere nearly two hours after poll closing; and the immediate post-closing Exit Polls had it a dead heat, 50%-50%. But the only place those polls were posted was as
a Bar Chart in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Not a single network posted any Exit Poll numbers, though they all have been regularly posting them throughout the 2012 primary season within a few minutes of poll closing. But they all called the race “extremely tight,” since they were looking at the same 50%-50% Exit Poll that the Journal Sentinel at least had the courage to post in some format.

In short order, and quite predictably, the race was Walker’s, the networks anointing him the winner as the Exit Poll “Adjustment” Process played out. You could actually see it on the Journal Sentinel’s Bar Chart: the blue bars shrinking and the red bars lengthening every 20
minutes or so. It will take a bit of visual measuring but the adjustment process was egregious, on the order of an 8-10% marginal disparity between the Unadjusted Exit Polls and the Adjusted Exit Polls congruent to the eventually-to-be-announced “official results.”

We’ve seen this before, election after election, the familiar “Red Shift.” And it’s the Exit Polls that are always “off,” because the Votecounts must always be “on.” Except that the Votecounts are secret and in the full control of outfits, with strong right-wing affiliations, like Dominion Voting and Command Central. Votes counted by partisans in complete secret–is this sane?

Today massive robocalls were reported to have been placed to targeted Barrett supporters, telling them they didn’t have to vote if they had signed the recall petition, and others that they couldn’t vote if they hadn’t voted in 2010. An obvious question: is there a bright ethical line between making (whoever actually made them) targeted robocalls telling your opponents’ supporters they don’t have to vote if they signed
the recall petition versus setting the zero-counters on a bunch of memory cards to, say, +50 (for Walker) and -50 (for Barrett) so at the end
of the day the election admin sees a “clean” election and you’ve shifted 100 votes per precinct? Do you believe that operators who have clearly not blanched at doing the first would for some reason blanch at doing the second–much neater and more efficacious as it is?

And if you’re thinking “well the pre-election polls predicted a Walker win,” you should know that the methodology for all of those polls, even
the ones run by left-leaning outfits, was the Likely Voter Cutoff Model (google it, by all means), which disproportionately eliminates Democratic voters (students, renters, poor, minority) from the sample and so skews it conveniently anywhere from 5% to 10% to the right (the pollsters
all would have been out of business by now if they had kept using a sound methodology and getting competitive elections wrong with it).

This election was dubbed “the second most important election of 2012;” it will “foretell” November just as the Massachusetts Special Senate Election (Coakley-Brown) “foretold” November 2010. And there was a massive red shift and even more than the usual indicators that it was rigged. Can anyone live with that, just give it a pass, and sleep tonight?

[alkemical]

Take that, teachers, janitors, public workers! You Reaganites sure handed it to them! Way to stand up for those poor billionaires.

It's easy to cut the budget when you can use free labor (http://www.bing.com/search?q=WI+prison+labor&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=wi+prison+labor&sc=1-13&sp=-1&sk=)*.

[Garcia Bronco]

Not that hard to cut debt on the back of a 2.5% point decrease in unemployment - they would have done that without a govenor.

No. Especially if those employment numbers include governemnt jobs who don't actually pay net taxes. Is it so hard to admit that Walker did a good thing in Wisconsin?

[Garcia Bronco]

Take that, teachers, janitors, public workers! You Reaganites sure handed it to them! Way to stand up for those poor billionaires.

hyper"bowl" .....get all the smoke out of the tube. :P

[alkemical]

No. Especially if those employment numbers include governemnt jobs who don't actually pay net taxes. Is it so hard to admit that Walker did a good thing in Wisconsin?

Gov't workers don't pay taxes? How's that work?

[spdirty]

It is like everything else, a pissing contest. People who have no connection to Walker or Wisconsin and some times a personal interest that is opposite to Walkers policies will defend him tooth and nail because he is labeled as Republican - likewise people will renounce him as being just a hair short of the antichrist even though they are in a situation where some of his policies would benefit them because they label themselves as democrats.

Political debate in a two party system is dead, it tends to take on an eerie similarity to two groups of kindergardners alternatingly yelling "Nuh uh" and "Yeah uh" at each other.

Agreed. And this forum is a microcosm of that mentality.

[gyldenlove]

Gov't workers don't pay taxes? How's that work?

It is easy, Wisconsing hired 25% of all the people who were unemployed in 2010 to work for the state and all those people are not paying taxes - it makes perfect sense. I am not sure why Walker would continue that program, but he is a fiscal genious so there is probably a good reason.

[alkemical]

It is easy, Wisconsing hired 25% of all the people who were unemployed in 2010 to work for the state and all those people are not paying taxes - it makes perfect sense. I am not sure why Walker would continue that program, but he is a fiscal genious so there is probably a good reason.

Did you see what the UK is doing with their unemployed (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/unpaid-jubilee-stewards-probe-urged)?

[tnedator]

Gaffney, is there any subject where you aren't so far out there that your screen name should be renamed Pluto???

[Pony Boy]

Wisconsin Voter Tells CNN: "Democracy Died Tonight"

Hilarious!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q8KeO_lirBo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Johnykbr]

According to this writer -- the vote in Wisconsin was tainted by a "red shift.."

MHG


With the exit polls—as usual—”adjusted,” Walker “wins” Wisconsin! (Who’s surprised?)

http://markcrispinmiller.com/
June 6, 2012

From Jonathan Simon:

What we got tonight in Wisconsin was the same old stench, coming from the same old corner of the room. To wit, there was a huge turnout (highly favorable to the Democratic candidate Barrett), in fact they’re still waiting in line to vote in Milwaukee and elsewhere nearly two hours after poll closing; and the immediate post-closing Exit Polls had it a dead heat, 50%-50%. But the only place those polls were posted was as
a Bar Chart in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Not a single network posted any Exit Poll numbers, though they all have been regularly posting them throughout the 2012 primary season within a few minutes of poll closing. But they all called the race “extremely tight,” since they were looking at the same 50%-50% Exit Poll that the Journal Sentinel at least had the courage to post in some format.

In short order, and quite predictably, the race was Walker’s, the networks anointing him the winner as the Exit Poll “Adjustment” Process played out. You could actually see it on the Journal Sentinel’s Bar Chart: the blue bars shrinking and the red bars lengthening every 20
minutes or so. It will take a bit of visual measuring but the adjustment process was egregious, on the order of an 8-10% marginal disparity between the Unadjusted Exit Polls and the Adjusted Exit Polls congruent to the eventually-to-be-announced “official results.”

We’ve seen this before, election after election, the familiar “Red Shift.” And it’s the Exit Polls that are always “off,” because the Votecounts must always be “on.” Except that the Votecounts are secret and in the full control of outfits, with strong right-wing affiliations, like Dominion Voting and Command Central. Votes counted by partisans in complete secret–is this sane?

Today massive robocalls were reported to have been placed to targeted Barrett supporters, telling them they didn’t have to vote if they had signed the recall petition, and others that they couldn’t vote if they hadn’t voted in 2010. An obvious question: is there a bright ethical line between making (whoever actually made them) targeted robocalls telling your opponents’ supporters they don’t have to vote if they signed
the recall petition versus setting the zero-counters on a bunch of memory cards to, say, +50 (for Walker) and -50 (for Barrett) so at the end
of the day the election admin sees a “clean” election and you’ve shifted 100 votes per precinct? Do you believe that operators who have clearly not blanched at doing the first would for some reason blanch at doing the second–much neater and more efficacious as it is?

And if you’re thinking “well the pre-election polls predicted a Walker win,” you should know that the methodology for all of those polls, even
the ones run by left-leaning outfits, was the Likely Voter Cutoff Model (google it, by all means), which disproportionately eliminates Democratic voters (students, renters, poor, minority) from the sample and so skews it conveniently anywhere from 5% to 10% to the right (the pollsters
all would have been out of business by now if they had kept using a sound methodology and getting competitive elections wrong with it).

This election was dubbed “the second most important election of 2012;” it will “foretell” November just as the Massachusetts Special Senate Election (Coakley-Brown) “foretold” November 2010. And there was a massive red shift and even more than the usual indicators that it was rigged. Can anyone live with that, just give it a pass, and sleep tonight?

This is very common and is not indicative of cheating. The way almost all automated voting booths work is that they don't submit their content (votes) until voting has closed and the poll workers, followed by the station director, submit separate passwords to each machine at which point they are sent to a centralized server. All the numbers you see prior to this point are based off of projections determined from the paper ballot (which lag dramatically behind) or assumptions made on the political party of the voter which is marked when they arrive to vote. So if a Republican comes to vote then they are assumed to be voting for a Republican candidate. Sadly, this assumption is 9 times out of 10 correct.

So you are seeing an assumption vs the actual results pour in when the polls close.

And yes, I have performed IV&V on automated voting machines and election monitoring for multiple elections both foreign and domestic.

[Johnykbr]

L0L! :laugh:

"Improving" for whom?

The Koch Brothers?

You watch too much Faux News.

So a fiscal year surplus, lower unemployment rate, and better academic performance in many of the schools where his changes were implemented is only good for the Koch brothers? That's a head scratcher.

[chadta]

Gov't workers don't pay taxes? How's that work?

easy, government workers are paid with tax money, its like me lending you 50 bucks so you can pay me back part of the 100 you owe me, i havent gotten anything out of you, you still owe me money, tax revenue hasint increased any by highering more workers.

Im really torn on this, i hate public sector unions, typically its a meeting between the union bosses and the government of the day, to decide how to screw the tax payer, i think its about time somebody stood up and represented the voters, BUT i really hate trying to take away the ability to collectively bargain.

I agree with the earlier posters who have said that somewhere along the way unions stopped working for the members and became big business themselves, and they are suffering becasue of it, a few of the big unions up here in Canada are in merger talks, there has also been rumors that they may start accepting anybody into membership, even those in non union jobs, you pay dues, and get represented, i think this is a step in the right direction.

[55CrushEm]

Wisconsin Voter Tells CNN: "Democracy Died Tonight"

Hilarious!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q8KeO_lirBo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[houghtam]

Except it's actually better for everyone is Wisconsin right now excluding those areas that did not adopt (contractually) the changes in the Walker Law. These changes have helpped Wisconsin get their state debt under control/

I could get crime under control pretty quickly too by just locking everyone up ahead of time. All problems can be solved, it just depends on how much personal liberty you want to take away in the process. Taking away the right to say, in one voice, "we want change or we won't work", is just another step in the process.

Money is the most important thing, though. Gotta get those budgets under control, so the big bad educators, police and fire employees, and other public sector employees who negotiated those contracts long ago are just the next on the chopping block.

[55CrushEm]

Amazing how Walker has balanced the budget in Wisconsin WITHOUT raising taxes.

So many on here insist that that's impossible.

Weird.

[Rigs11]

Amazing how Walker has balanced the budget in Wisconsin WITHOUT raising taxes.

So many on here insist that that's impossible.

Weird.

Weird indeed,weird that you fell for the bs.walker actually lowered the earned income credit on families that have more than one child.the result?those families payed more in taxes.He also cut the homestead program which gives tax cuts to low income homeowners.weird huh?

[houghtam]

Weird indeed,weird that you fell for the bs.walker actually lowered the earned income credit on families that have more than one child.the result?those families payed more in taxes.He also cut the homestead program which gives tax cuts to low income homeowners.weird huh?

The budget also never got balanced. The proposal would have balanced the budget, but (surprise!) tax revenues were about half of what they had hoped for, so there was actually a deficit in Wisconsin.

[Requiem]

Houghtam. I put money on Obama winning Michigan by at least 7%. Am I gonna be a winner?

[houghtam]

Houghtam. I put money on Obama winning Michigan by at least 7%. Am I gonna be a winner?

Living in Indiana, at the moment, but I think you can double-or-nothing your bet and make it 10%. Once the national debate materializes and it comes out what the Republicans are doing in the Michigan House and Senate, it could be even worse.

[Spider]

Amazing how Walker has balanced the budget in Wisconsin WITHOUT raising taxes.

So many on here insist that that's impossible.

Weird.

Hilarious!..... thats funny stuff right there

[Requiem]

Living in Indiana, at the moment, but I think you can double-or-nothing your bet and make it 10%. Once the national debate materializes and it comes out what the Republicans are doing in the Michigan House and Senate, it could be even worse.

It is a bet on another forum, I wanted to put a grand on it, but the kid (who lives in Michigan) is 18 and said he couldn't afford it.

[houghtam]

It is a bet on another forum, I wanted to put a grand on it, but the kid (who lives in Michigan) is 18 and said he couldn't afford it.

Michigan hasn't gone Republican in 25 years.

[tnedator]

Michigan hasn't gone Republican in 25 years.

Yea, but it's halftime in America...

[houghtam]

Yea, but it's halftime in America...

LOL if you think there's a chance MI goes Republican, you clearly have much to learn, young padawan. I've got a better chance of being elected President, and I'm only 33.

[tnedator]

LOL if you think there's a chance MI goes Republican, you clearly have much to learn, young padawan. I've got a better chance of being elected President, and I'm only 33.

Make my day...

[houghtam]

Make my day...

Care to wager?

[tnedator]

Care to wager?

On republicans taking Michigan? Are you ******* crazy?

It was a joke, taking the mickey out of the Clint Eastwood commercial.

[houghtam]

On republicans taking Michigan? Are you ******* crazy?

It was a joke, taking the mickey out of the Clint Eastwood commercial.

Well Req, you got your answer LOL

Thanks for being an unwilling participant, tnedator :)

[tnedator]

Well Req, you got your answer LOL

Thanks for being an unwilling participant, tnedator :)

Req doesn't like or trust me, because I'm a young, blonde, vivacious women...

[barryr]

LOL if you think there's a chance MI goes Republican, you clearly have much to learn, young padawan. I've got a better chance of being elected President, and I'm only 33.

So Michigan has already decided to vote democrat before even hearing all ideas from both sides? Gee, how open-minded of them :~ohyah!: And here I thought liberals are the open-minded ones, but looks like that is made up crap, like the rest of their supposed grand traits.

[barryr]

Req doesn't like or trust me, because I'm a young, blonde, vivacious women...

Oh, that will leave a mark ^5

[That One Guy]

So Michigan has already decided to vote democrat before even hearing all ideas from both sides? Gee, how open-minded of them :~ohyah!: And here I thought liberals are the open-minded ones, but looks like that is made up crap, like the rest of their supposed grand traits.

You really are a useless idiot.

[Requiem]

Michigan hasn't gone Republican in 25 years.

The thing people don't understand is registered versus likely voters in the polls.

Michigan was fairly close outside the past cycles before Obama versus McCain, but undoubtedly is a blue state. I was willing to bet near half on Obama's performance there (16% win) in 2008 and the fact that Michigan's registered voting population is 7 to 8 higher for the Democrats. I do not expect enough I's to swing right in this election in that state (given the demographics, issues, etc.) to make it within the margin of error in most polls.

I'd say that +7 to +8.5 is a likely scenario. I've seen a few polls less than that, but the average (as of now) seems to be that way, even though the PPP came out with a poll having him up double digits. There were a lot of people crunching the #'s there that simply didn't understand elections and have already gone out to say it was a bad bet.

I hope it ends up being a good one. :) There is no way he loses Michigan, just how much does he win by is the real question, because when the slate is brand new in 2016, there will be a lot of ground to cover for everyone everywhere.

[Requiem]

Req doesn't like or trust me, because I'm a young, blonde, vivacious women...

Maybe in an alternative universe. . .

[tnedator]

Maybe in an alternative universe. . .

Well, except for the part about me being young, vivacious, a women and having blonde, or any, hair, it was 100% accurate... ;)

[alkemical]

This is very common and is not indicative of cheating. The way almost all automated voting booths work is that they don't submit their content (votes) until voting has closed and the poll workers, followed by the station director, submit separate passwords to each machine at which point they are sent to a centralized server. All the numbers you see prior to this point are based off of projections determined from the paper ballot (which lag dramatically behind) or assumptions made on the political party of the voter which is marked when they arrive to vote. So if a Republican comes to vote then they are assumed to be voting for a Republican candidate. Sadly, this assumption is 9 times out of 10 correct.

So you are seeing an assumption vs the actual results pour in when the polls close.

And yes, I have performed IV&V on automated voting machines and election monitoring for multiple elections both foreign and domestic.

I have issues with the lack of security on voting machines & the process.

[alkemical]

easy, government workers are paid with tax money, its like me lending you 50 bucks so you can pay me back part of the 100 you owe me, i havent gotten anything out of you, you still owe me money, tax revenue hasint increased any by highering more workers.

Im really torn on this, i hate public sector unions, typically its a meeting between the union bosses and the government of the day, to decide how to screw the tax payer, i think its about time somebody stood up and represented the voters, BUT i really hate trying to take away the ability to collectively bargain.

I agree with the earlier posters who have said that somewhere along the way unions stopped working for the members and became big business themselves, and they are suffering becasue of it, a few of the big unions up here in Canada are in merger talks, there has also been rumors that they may start accepting anybody into membership, even those in non union jobs, you pay dues, and get represented, i think this is a step in the right direction.

Funny how selective and dishonest people are on when they choose to accept the big picture. (Not directed toward you specifically, unless it applies :) ).

When I was bringing up examples in other threads about how prison labor is a con*(pun intended) - people couldn't follow the pea* in the cups. I've seen collusion between AFSCME & Ed Rendell in the past in PA.

The majore problem i'm having lately, is how people champion policies, that are detrimental in the long term. Or the unawareness of how these policies impact themselves.

The middle class doesn't like to admit they get "socialism". Our whole society is entitlement based. The very top, and very bottom of the econ spectrum here in the USA gets most of the benefit, with little of the pay-in. The core middle of the citizens, while they do get privledges granted - opt in not only for their services, but for the stated top/bottom of the population.

Are you familiar with the concept of the "prisoner's dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)"?

We're* being manipulated into making bad decisions - that are not in our best interest. We're being manipulated into asking bad questions and accepting bad deals. Why are we so entrusting to authority in giving us solutions, while not asking hard questions?

My issue with Walker is how he laid people off and replaced them with prison labor. I don't nec. have an issue with prison labor in many ways - but using them to "balance" the budget exerts the observation of feudalism - and isn't good/fair for "free market" idealogues.

[55CrushEm]

Hilarious!..... thats funny stuff right there

What's that, Spider?

Yes, it is funny that you don't think it's possible that budgets can be balanced without raising taxes. But then again, I doubt you're very good at math. You don't strike anyone as particularly bright, either.

[55CrushEm]

The budget also never got balanced. The proposal would have balanced the budget, but (surprise!) tax revenues were about half of what they had hoped for, so there was actually a deficit in Wisconsin.

That's the difference between budgets and actuals.....budgets are PROPOSALS. At least that's a start. Show me the last time a tax-and-spend liberal proposed a budget with surplus.

As I'm sure you know, ACTUALS almost never come out to what the budgets/proposals are because of many factors.......particularly growth rates.

[55CrushEm]

The thing people don't understand is registered versus likely voters in the polls.

Michigan was fairly close outside the past cycles before Obama versus McCain, but undoubtedly is a blue state. I was willing to bet near half on Obama's performance there (16% win) in 2008 and the fact that Michigan's registered voting population is 7 to 8 higher for the Democrats. I do not expect enough I's to swing right in this election in that state (given the demographics, issues, etc.) to make it within the margin of error in most polls.

I'd say that +7 to +8.5 is a likely scenario. I've seen a few polls less than that, but the average (as of now) seems to be that way, even though the PPP came out with a poll having him up double digits. There were a lot of people crunching the #'s there that simply didn't understand elections and have already gone out to say it was a bad bet.

I hope it ends up being a good one. :) There is no way he loses Michigan, just how much does he win by is the real question, because when the slate is brand new in 2016, there will be a lot of ground to cover for everyone everywhere.

Agreed. And you are right. Polls that tally LIKELY voters are much more accurate that ones that target all REGISTERED voters.....for obvious reasons.

[Spider]

What's that, Spider?

Yes, it is funny that you don't think it's possible that budgets can be balanced without raising taxes. But then again, I doubt you're very good at math. You don't strike anyone as particularly bright, either.
......
:rofl: sure thing genius

[Garcia Bronco]

I could get crime under control pretty quickly too by just locking everyone up ahead of time.

That's not even close to being true and the logic doesn't equate to reality by the mere fact that we have crime in prisons. Further if everyone was a prisoner then there would be no need for jails and the game would stay the same.

[Garcia Bronco]

Taking away the right to say, in one voice, "we want change or we won't work", is just another step in the process.

Money is the most important thing, though. Gotta get those budgets under control, so the big bad educators, police and fire employees, and other public sector employees who negotiated those contracts long ago are just the next on the chopping block.

You and all those people have access to the courts and everything that is generally fair for all is already a Federal Law. And frankly, if you don't want to work; quit and find something better. What goes on today in public sector unions is a gigantic conflict of interest for a group that doesn't actually pay income taxes and demanding income taxpayer money.

[Spider]

You and all those people have access to the courts and everything that is generally fair for all is already a Federal Law. And frankly, if you don't want to work; quit and find something better. What goes on today in public sector unions is a gigantic conflict of interest for a group that doesn't actually pay income taxes and demanding income taxpayer money.

Much like churches

[alkemical]

You and all those people have access to the courts and everything that is generally fair for all is already a Federal Law. And frankly, if you don't want to work; quit and find something better. What goes on today in public sector unions is a gigantic conflict of interest for a group that doesn't actually pay income taxes and demanding income taxpayer money.

How do they not pay income taxes? Does this apply to any "gov't" worker?

[Garcia Bronco]

Much like churches

Slightly different, but I get your point and I agree. There should be more tax money at the local level coming from Churches. but we're talking Federal Income tax. Not property tax or 501(c)3 tax status.

[Garcia Bronco]

How do they not pay income taxes? Does this apply to any "gov't" worker?

Think of it as a bag of coke that's been stepped on a few times. They get paid with taxpayer money. Not on a profit margin. So in essense the money they pay into the system was already collected by the system. I often wonder if we'd save money in overhead on processing their returns and to actually tell public sector employees to not pay at all.

[55CrushEm]

Michigan hasn't gone Republican in 25 years.

A Mass Senate seat hadn't gone R, either, in quite some time before Scott Brown.

And while I totally agree with you that Obama will win Michigan.....this is just one of many polls.....

http://www.freep.com/article/20120607/NEWS06/120607030/Poll-Barack-Obama-dead-heat-Mitt-Romney-Michigan-popularity-slips

[Spider]

Slightly different, but I get your point and I agree. There should be more tax money at the local level coming from Churches. but we're talking Federal Income tax. Not property tax or 501(c)3 tax status.

Churches are very politcal ....in a sence they are a platform and pushing a politcal message ......once churches step into the political arena they should loose tax exempt status

[tnedator]

Churches are very politcal ....in a sence they are a platform and pushing a politcal message ......once churches step into the political arena they should loose tax exempt status

Assuming we used the same standard for all 501c3/non-profit organizations, I agree.

[houghtam]

You and all those people have access to the courts and everything that is generally fair for all is already a Federal Law. And frankly, if you don't want to work; quit and find something better. What goes on today in public sector unions is a gigantic conflict of interest for a group that doesn't actually pay income taxes and demanding income taxpayer money.

And it would serve the state right if the public employees (those petulant firemen!) simply all said FU and went on strike anyway. However, they're counting on their sense of duty and honor to show up for work and do their job. And unfortunately, they're right.

Walker and the Republicans would back down in about 30 seconds if the Milwaukee PD simply locked its doors and didn't come to work the next day. Unfortunately it will never happen, and these public employees and their crybaby ways will just have to suck it up.

I wonder if any of the people calling the public employees crybabies would actually have the sack to tell a policeman that to his face.

[houghtam]

Assuming we used the same standard for all 501c3/non-profit organizations, I agree.

Thirded. Or fourthded.

Whatever.

[Spider]

Assuming we used the same standard for all 501c3/non-profit organizations, I agree.

well it is being done to unions .....and you bastards celebrating .....churchs are no different then 501 c

[Garcia Bronco]

And it would serve the state right if the public employees (those petulant firemen!) simply all said FU and went on strike anyway. However, they're counting on their sense of duty and honor to show up for work and do their job. And unfortunately, they're right.

Walker and the Republicans would back down in about 30 seconds if the Milwaukee PD simply locked its doors and didn't come to work the next day. Unfortunately it will never happen, and these public employees and their crybaby ways will just have to suck it up.

I wonder if any of the people calling the public employees crybabies would actually have the sack to tell a policeman that to his face.

Well...while a appreciate the job that fireman do....public sector Unions have allowed them to get paid without working and juice overtime without actually working overtime. If they said FU and stopped working as a city manager I would hire a private company to handle it with oversight. The fires are going to get put out one way or another.

Second....this bill in Wisconsin does not apply to Fireman or Police. So you're talking about something that doesn't apply to the bill.

[tnedator]

well it is being done to unions .....and you bastards celebrating .....churchs are no different then 501 c

"you bastards" Tsk, Tsk, Spider, decorum isn't your strong suit.

There are plenty of questionable 501c3's and I'm saying they should all play by the same rules, not that some should and some shouldn't.

[Spider]

"you bastards" Tsk, Tsk, Spider, decorum isn't your strong suit.

There are plenty of questionable 501c3's and I'm saying they should all play by the same rules, not that some should and some shouldn't.

You limp wristed bedwetter you finally got something right ....had to reread it almost shiat myself in amazment

[alkemical]

Think of it as a bag of coke that's been stepped on a few times. They get paid with taxpayer money. Not on a profit margin. So in essense the money they pay into the system was already collected by the system. I often wonder if we'd save money in overhead on processing their returns and to actually tell public sector employees to not pay at all.

This applies to anyone working on taxpayer $, right?

[gyldenlove]

This applies to anyone working on taxpayer $, right?

Yup, soldiers, senators, police officers, teachers, school bus drivers, secretaries. It also goes for those who work for private companies that contract to the government, such as weapons makers, it solutions and researchers.

[gyldenlove]

And it would serve the state right if the public employees (those petulant firemen!) simply all said FU and went on strike anyway. However, they're counting on their sense of duty and honor to show up for work and do their job. And unfortunately, they're right.

Walker and the Republicans would back down in about 30 seconds if the Milwaukee PD simply locked its doors and didn't come to work the next day. Unfortunately it will never happen, and these public employees and their crybaby ways will just have to suck it up.

I wonder if any of the people calling the public employees crybabies would actually have the sack to tell a policeman that to his face.

Walker wouldn't dream of taking on the police, he knows he needs them to enforce bylaws and remove protesters.

[cutthemdown]

Churches are very politcal ....in a sence they are a platform and pushing a politcal message ......once churches step into the political arena they should loose tax exempt status

Name one thing that isn't a religious issue the churches have got involved in?

killing unborn babies=religious issue
gays marrying=religious issue
prayer in school=religious freedom issue

Churches give away tons of money helping the poor. To attack them as not paying their way, or if you don't shut your mouth we will make you pay taxes etc etc is wrong.

But I would not have a problem with churches paying some property tax, really low though. Will help support the infrastructure where there church uses services from tax money, where people may not be religious. A fair trade off IMO.

[Spider]

Name one thing that isn't a religious issue the churches have got involved in?

killing unborn babies=religious issue
gays marrying=religious issue
prayer in school=religious freedom issue

Churches give away tons of money helping the poor. To attack them as not paying their way, or if you don't shut your mouth we will make you pay taxes etc etc is wrong.

But I would not have a problem with churches paying some property tax, really low though. Will help support the infrastructure where there church uses services from tax money, where people may not be religious. A fair trade off IMO.

R U really this stupid ?

[Garcia Bronco]

Walker wouldn't dream of taking on the police, he knows he needs them to enforce bylaws and remove protesters.

He wanted to, but the bill would have got no play with them in there.

[Garcia Bronco]

This applies to anyone working on taxpayer $, right?

Basically. It's a system of deminishing returns. The difference is that a private company without a Union is in control of it's spending and can adjust year-to-year. I governemnt entity with a public sector union is not.

[Pony Boy]

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute—where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote—where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference—and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish—where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source—where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials—and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. [...] I do not speak for my church on public matters—and the church does not speak for me. Whatever issue may come before me as President—on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject—I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise. But if the time should ever come—and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible—when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same.

John F. Kennedy
September 12 1960

[Requiem]

Well, except for the part about me being young, vivacious, a women and having blonde, or any, hair, it was 100% accurate... ;)

And to be clear, I do not hate you. I had a moments glory posting a picture after meeting some people from the forums @ the Chicago game on there before I got the boot again. It was worth it. ^5

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Recall Election Fraud in Wisconsin? You Betcha!

June 7, 2012



http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/photo.jpg (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/06/07/recall-election-fraud-in-wisconsin-you-betcha/photo-2/)

When I heard the election had been called for Walker, I posted on my fb page, “something’s hinky here.” I felt that way then and I know it for sure now. The early exit polls predicted the race between Walker and Barrett to be a virtual tie. A second round of exit polling data gave Walker a small lead over Barrett but was still “too close to call.” MSNBC and Fox called the election for Walker an hour after the polls closed with no more than 21% of the 100% of unverified computer results in, and people in three counties still voting. Let’s see, within one hour the election went from too close to call, to Walker winning by 7%, with only 21% of the votes counted and three counties still voting. In other words that 21% was the equivalent of 57% of the total vote. This is mathematically impossible; clearly the unadjusted exit polls in Wisconsin do not match the reported results, the adjusted results, of the popular vote.

Media, unlike the common man or woman, has access to the unadjusted polling data. Richard Charnin asks, “why did the media not provide the actual unadjusted exit poll data (the “crosstabs”) Was it because they knew that they would have to adjust the poll to match a bogus recorded vote and did not want the public to view the impossible adjustments?” (http://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/wisconsin-recall-the-adjusted-final-exit-poll-was-forced-to-match-an-unlikely-recorded-vote/)

Exit polls are based on what is called unadjusted exit polling data; as per Charnin, “in every election pollsters force state and national exit polls to match the recorded vote.” In other words, mathematically impossible or not, the machine is always right. In Wisconsin, the state’s leading vendors of voting machines, election supplies, and distributors of Dominion Voting Systems is Command Central. Dominion is a veritable cartel of Republican backed voting technology and owns Diebold/Premier Election voting Systems, which it bought from Election Systems and Software (ES&S), and the British based Sequoia. Diebold/Premier (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/03/diebolds-political-machine), famous for the mess that was the 2004 Presidential election, and ES&S are owned and operated by a handful of Republican, super-rich, Christian Reconstructionists and control 80% (http://www.thelandesreport.com/VotingMachineCompanies.htm) of the vote counts in the United States.



The fact that 80% of the votes counted in this country are in the hands of Republican backed voting technology is probably the reason why whenever there’s a glitch in the voting machine it always skews red.

Now back to Wisconsin: “By law voting machines must be publicly tested prior to every election. A Programmable Read Only Memory (P.R.O.M.) pack or cartridge is used to reprogram the machines with the details of the current election. Clerks receive two PROM packs from Command Central: A PRE-LAT, which is used a week or so before the election for the public test, and an “Official” pack used on Election Day.” (http://wcmcoop.com/members/meet-command-central-the-people-in-charge-of-wisconsin-voting-machines/)

Sue Wahl-Storbeck, one of the two people operating Command Central, the other being her step-son Aaron Storbeck, is the person responsible for programming 3,000 voting machines in 46 districts in the State of Wisconsin. Wahl-Storbeck’s resume includes a stint at ACS Enterprises, a data processing company out of Texas. I’m not sure what she did at the data processing company but I do know that she was fired for refusing to take the company’s annual ethics exam and when her unemployment was denied, because she refused to take the company’s annual ethics exam, she took it to court and lost. Given the fact that “whoever programs the PROM packs has the ability to inject all the machines with a virus that will flip votes only on Election Day,” (http://wcmcoop.com/members/meet-command-central-the-people-in-charge-of-wisconsin-voting-machines/)I’d like to know that the person programming the machine was both ethical and incorruptible especially since, “with two different PROM packs in play, it’s easy to see how public tests could be flawless and the machines could still flip votes Election Day.”

Wisconsin election integrity investigator John Washburn has some history with Command Central. In July of 2011 he asked “to examine the PROM packs from the July 15, 2011 recall election in wards 1-4 in Fox Point. When they responded that it would cost him $450, Washburn filed a complaint alleging that Command Central LLC wasn’t cooperative in responding to the open records request.” Last September, 2011, Washburn discovered that Command Central had offered to replace the Optech Scanner for two DRE screen models. It has been proven over and over again how easy it is to hack both the DRE and the Optech, but at least with the Optech you have a paper trail, the ballot is fed into the machine, you have a receipt that you voted, and in case of a recount the election official can physically monitor the number of ballots to see it they match the machine total. The DRE is a touch screen, votes are recorded directly onto a memory cartridge, meaning there is no receipt or paper trail to confirm that your vote was counted; all the election official gets at the end of the day is a paper tape that shows the votes and vote totals. Without a verifiable paper trail, the votes can be easily flipped. Once again, “with two different PROM packs in play, it’s easy to see how public tests could be flawless and the machines could still flip votes Election Day.” (http://wcmcoop.com/members/meet-command-central-the-people-in-charge-of-wisconsin-voting-machines/) I can find absolutely no evidence at all that the PROM packs for the Walker re-call election were checked by anyone other than Sue Wald-Storbeck.

According to John Washburn, Command Central’s DRE offer violated “the statutes issued by the GAB (Government Accountability Board) for the State approved system as described on the Government Accountability Board’s website that requires the inclusion of an Optech Insight Scanner. On January 13, 2010 Washbun emailed the GAB about this situation. When he did not receive an answer, he submitted and Open Records request to the GAB with no reply. On Mat 2, he submitted another, again, to no response. On May 4th, he turned the case over to Dane County Attorney, and on May 14th, he kicked it up to the Department of Justice.” (http://wcmcoop.com/members/meet-command-central-the-people-in-charge-of-wisconsin-voting-machines/) I was pretty shocked that GAB didn’t respond to Washburn’s request immediately, given the subject had to do with the integrity of the Democratic process, that is until I discovered Judge Michael Brennan, one of the six judges on the board, was just tapped to chair Governor Scott Walker’s Judicial Selection Advisory Committee.

Thanks to Wisconsin Citizen Media Co-op and other groups, Wisconsin was informed of the twisted machinations of probable voter fraud threading through the re-call voting process and wrote down a simple list of ways to ensure your vote counted. Wisconsin voted mostly on paper ballots, what they had no control over however was how the votes were counted. The votes were counted by the same computer-optical scan systems famous for throwing out thousands of valid votes in New York City, failing to count the same ballots the same way in Oakland County, Michigan, and when hacked of entirely flipping the results of a mock election in Leon County, Florida. These failures, failures that can clearly determine elections, were discovered during state mandated, manual, post-election, spot checks. Wisconsin though does not manually post check ballots without a recount request and an order from a judge, unless it’s a presidential election, so there is no way to know if the results reported by the computers reflect what the actual ballots say. Clearly there’s a question here as the unadjusted exit polls do not match the reported results, the adjusted results, of the popular vote, results, which were in Sue Wahl-Storbeck’s hands and the machines she programmed.

John Simon writes, “We’ve seen this before, election after election, the familiar “Red Shift.” And it’s the exit polls that are always “off” because the Votecounts must always be “on.” Except the Votecounts are secret and in the full control of outfits with strong right-wing affiliations, like Dominion Voting and Command Central. Votes counted by partisans in complete secret – is this sane?” (http://markcrispinmiller.com/2012/06/with-the-exit-polls-as-usual-adjusted-walker-wins-wisconsin-whos-surprised/)


No it’s not sane, it’s fraud and it’s coming to a national election near you.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/06/07/recall-election-fraud-in-wisconsin-you-betcha/

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So you're saying Walker has something in common with Obama?

Are you kidding me?

That's exactly what I've been saying since the '08 campaign season.

It's you and your pals on the far right who believe Obama is a "socialist."

Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Take that, teachers, janitors, public workers! You Reaganites sure handed it to them! Way to stand up for those poor billionaires.

Bingo.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/184678_1876534716524_6947572_n.jpg

[Garcia Bronco]

"Wah! I didn't get my way so someone must have cheated."

[houghtam]

"Wah! I didn't get my way so someone must have cheated."

"Wah! I'm jealous of public employees who get health care and pensions. Let's blow up contracts that were negotiated long ago."

[Garcia Bronco]

"Wah! I'm jealous of public employees who get health care and pensions. Let's blow up contracts that were negotiated long ago."

Contracts can be redone. Further, the contracts that were in place in this case were not overwritten. Further still...those employees still have health benefits and pensions.

[55CrushEm]

"Wah! I'm jealous of public employees who get health care and pensions. Let's blow up contracts that were negotiated long ago."

It's health care and pensions that those employees contribute almost NOTHING to! Nobody is saying that public sector employees can't have health care and pensions.....just pay a portion, as everyone in the private sector does!

Most private companies I've seen....it's typical that the employee pays anywhere from 20%-50% of their health care premiums (I currently pay only 20% of my premium on a GREAT family plan....and I feel fortunate). These yahoos in Wisconsin are screaming that they now have to pay 7-12% ?!?!? Cry me a ****ing river! This FULLY FUNDED bull**** has to stop.

[Garcia Bronco]

This FULLY FUNDED bull**** has to stop.

And that's the reason Gov Walker brought this legislation to bare on the public of WI. It was contributing to bankrupting the state to prevent everybody for getting nothing. Try eating on the state gov IOU. It doesn't work.

[alkemical]

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/06/261319/scott-walker-prison-labor/?mobile=nc

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law
The Washington Examiner called Racine’s move “another success story” and “all great news for Wisconsin taxpayers. Hopefully, we’ll see more of it.” So far, it appears no other jurisdiction has followed Racine’s example — for now. It may just be a matter of time to allow existing union contracts to expire. The spokesperson for the Sheriff’s Office of Dane County, which includes Madison, said, “Nobody in our jail will be benefiting…at this time” from the new law, but the left the door open for future changes.

While giving prisoners more work and activity options is generally positive, using free inmate labor to replace public sector workers is a disturbing trend.

[Garcia Bronco]

While giving prisoners more work and activity options is generally positive, using free inmate labor to replace public sector workers is a disturbing trend.

It's really not. Criminals should not have idle hands.

[alkemical]

It's really not. Criminals should not have idle hands.

It is, really.

[cutthemdown]

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/06/261319/scott-walker-prison-labor/?mobile=nc

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law
The Washington Examiner called Racine’s move “another success story” and “all great news for Wisconsin taxpayers. Hopefully, we’ll see more of it.” So far, it appears no other jurisdiction has followed Racine’s example — for now. It may just be a matter of time to allow existing union contracts to expire. The spokesperson for the Sheriff’s Office of Dane County, which includes Madison, said, “Nobody in our jail will be benefiting…at this time” from the new law, but the left the door open for future changes.

While giving prisoners more work and activity options is generally positive, using free inmate labor to replace public sector workers is a disturbing trend.

It's not disturbing its how it should be. We spend a ton of money housing them and states are going belly up trying to pay for all the prisons. its a great idea to use them as labor. That reduces the burden on the taxpayer which puts more money in our pockets which will create jobs.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/union-thugs-fdny-0.jpg