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Bronco Rob
06-05-2012, 01:29 AM
The Broncos defense made great strides last season beyond their 2010 performance, improving in points allowed, from 32nd to 24th, and in yards against, from 32nd to 20th.

Better players, including the return from injury by Elvis Dumervil and the addition of second-overall pick and eventual DROY Von Miller, were significant factors. The coaching of John Fox and Dennis Allen also loomed large, but with Allen having departed for the darker pastures of Oakland, the defense is now in the hands of former Pro Bowl linebacker and ex-longtime Jaguars head coach Jack Del Rio.

Like Del Rio, linebackers coach Richard Smith has been a successful coordinator in the past and also coached under Fox with the Panthers.

So far we've examined the team's options at tackle and end; let's look today at the linebackers Fox, Del Rio, and Smith will have at their disposal:


http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa444/Paxil_Rose/rtt.png





http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/scouting-the-broncos-2012-linebackers

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2012, 02:12 AM
can we dump DJ and his antics if Trevathan or Woodyard prove to be adequate fill ins for the season?

Bacchus
06-05-2012, 03:31 AM
can we dump DJ and his antics if Trevathan or Woodyard prove to be adequate fill ins for the season?

DJ is going to miss 6 games so the Broncos can run with those guys and see how they do. If they do great DJ might not have a job to come back to. My feeling is DJ will come back and by week 8 be the starter. However, I think this could be his last year in Denver as the young LBers develop.

fontaine
06-05-2012, 05:02 AM
can we dump DJ and his antics if Trevathan or Woodyard prove to be adequate fill ins for the season?

You mean like how Woodyard has done such a great job, making DJ disposable over the last 4 years?

g6matty
06-05-2012, 06:55 AM
you want to dump the guy whos consistantly led our team in tackles since hes been drafted lol? we need DJ

DBroncos4life
06-05-2012, 07:16 AM
DJ is going to miss 6 games so the Broncos can run with those guys and see how they do. If they do great DJ might not have a job to come back to. My feeling is DJ will come back and by week 8 be the starter. However, I think this could be his last year in Denver as the young LBers develop.

DJ will not miss 6 games. McBean didn't even try and his suspension was reduced to 3 games. The NFL has no leg to stand on.

Bronco Rob
06-05-2012, 11:44 AM
D.J. Williams is facing a six-game suspension due to one of the strangest examples of why there are problems with the player urinalysis program. Despite multiple problems with collecting the sample, some ‘non-human’ urine was supposedly mixed into it and the league expects D.J. to take responsibility for that, as well as a DUI. Former teammate Ryan McBean made a deal and had his suspension cut to three games, but D.J. is currently fighting the suspension. This is something that could drag out, ala the Star Caps mess, or be solved by September. If D.J. is suspended at all this season, though, which is likely, it could open some interesting doors.






:thumbs:

g6matty
06-05-2012, 11:51 AM
i think dj might get suspended for his DUI case but not the urine sample .

Cmac821
06-05-2012, 12:14 PM
If Mays is replaced by Irving, that is going to be a lot of speed on the field. With WW and Irving laying some big hits

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2012, 12:15 PM
you want to dump the guy whos consistantly led our team in tackles since hes been drafted lol? we need DJ

DJ is a constant source of annoyance for the team. he is always seemingly on the verge of suspension. his name tends to be in police blotters often. and as a player he has always played far below what his actual ability could allow him. his ability could have made him one of the best players in the league, a genuine star, but outside of Denver no one knows who he is.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2012, 12:18 PM
You mean like how Woodyard has done such a great job, making DJ disposable over the last 4 years?

i agree, that is why i said IF he or Trevathan show they can play. more than likely there is going to be a period at the start of the season where those 2 will see a lot of action because DJ is going to be suspended. maybe not for his supposedly trying to cheat a drug test, but for his DUI. DJ is most likely in his last year in Denver anyway, if those 2 show they can hold down the position for a year until we draft a permanent replacement or one of them shows they are the replacement there, why not trade DJ for a mid to late round pick and move on now?

razorwire77
06-05-2012, 12:27 PM
Woodyard is a nickle backer and special teams player. Nothing more, nothing less. If he were anything more, the front office would have rid itself of DJ many moons ago. D.J. is still the best Will on the team by a country mile. Those that are expecting Wesley or a 6th round draft pick rookie from Kentucky to make D.J. expendable are kidding themselves. Best thing is to hope he wins his appeal and plays at a decent level this year. In 2013-2014, you consider drafting his replacement in the first couple of rounds, or finding a younger, less idiotic decision prone free agent.

pricejj
06-05-2012, 12:34 PM
If Mays is replaced by Irving, that is going to be a lot of speed on the field. With WW and Irving laying some big hits

Irving runs a 4.74 forty. I would hardly call him speedy. Is he faster than Mays? Yes. But he's not fast for NFL standards at the MLB position. He would have a difficult time covering most TE's.

Bronco Rob
06-05-2012, 12:35 PM
If Mays is replaced by Irving, that is going to be a lot of speed on the field. With WW and Irving laying some big hits


I'm not a Joe Mays fan by any stretch of the imagination BUT Fox and Del Rio like him enough to give him 13 million AND "allegedly" if we didn't pay him he would be starting in Indianapolis or New Orleans.


That being said we still should have signed Jameel McClain....

This past year, McClain was second on the NFL’s third-ranked defense with 81 tackles. He also finished the regular season with one sack, one interception, a career-high five passes defended and two fumble recoveries, including one in which he returned for a touchdown in the Ravens’ victory over the New York Jets on Oct. 2.

He was at his best this past season during middle linebacker Ray Lewis’ four-game absence with a toe injury. In those four games, McClain made 32 tackles while making all the defensive calls in victories against the Cincinnati Bengals, San Francisco 49ers, Cleveland Browns and Indianapolis Colts.



:thumbs:

razorwire77
06-05-2012, 12:39 PM
If Irving doesn't get on the field at all this year, I think you've gotta upgrade Mike next year too. Despite dishing out the money for Joe Mays, I can't imagine Del Rio is thinking that's the guy I want anchoring the middle of my defense for the next several years.

Shananahan
06-05-2012, 01:06 PM
D.J. is still the best Will on the team by a country mile.
Agreed.

Crossing your fingers to see him replaced by an 'adequate fill-in' makes no sense to me.

lonestar
06-05-2012, 03:26 PM
can we dump DJ and his antics if Trevathan or Woodyard prove to be adequate fill ins for the season?

IIRC WW had a great ratio of tackles per play maybe even better than DJ had..


IMO DJ while he may be the leading tackler on the team rarely does he make a stop at or behind the LOS..

For someone that is as fast as he is supposed to be I can probably count the number of QB sacks he has on one hand each year.... (just looked 2.5 py avarage)

Most of his tackles are drag them down from behind and usually after they have made the first down.. and his pass coverage is well lacking at best..

for the money he is scheduled to make cut his ass or ask for a lower contract..

how many games this year will PAt be sending his paycheck to the NFL charities?

lonestar
06-05-2012, 03:27 PM
DJ is a constant source of annoyance for the team. he is always seemingly on the verge of suspension. his name tends to be in police blotters often. and as a player he has always played far below what his actual ability could allow him. his ability could have made him one of the best players in the league, a genuine star, but outside of Denver no one knows who he is.

he was Vilmas college teammate and is no where near his talent level..

cmhargrove
06-05-2012, 03:38 PM
he was Vilmas college teammate and is no where near his talent level..

I don't know that you could really back this statement up with facts. Vilma and DJ have had pretty similar production. Vilma has a few more tackles, DJ has more sacks. Otherwise, they have had pretty similar production.

Cmac821
06-05-2012, 03:41 PM
Irving runs a 4.74 forty. I would hardly call him speedy. Is he faster than Mays? Yes. But he's not fast for NFL standards at the MLB position. He would have a difficult time covering most TE's.

Then my idea is no good, I want a faster MLB. Maybe just run a nickle package the whole time without a MLB, Harris in the slot is a decent tackler

cmhargrove
06-05-2012, 04:00 PM
Then my idea is no good, I want a faster MLB. Maybe just run a nickle package the whole time without a MLB, Harris in the slot is a decent tackler

I'm not trying to razz you here, but you understand that with a suspect d-line, staying in a nickel defense is just another way to hand the Chiefs and Raiders 200 rushing yards per game?

Mays will be just fine as long as the coaches just ask him to play to his strengths and capabilities. He's not ever going to do well in coverage, but if he learns to read keys and ball movement a little better, he will be quite good. He's a natural thumper, and I think the Eagles drafted him as their next Jeremiah Trotter. He's not there yet, but he has the same skillset.

Drek
06-05-2012, 04:22 PM
Irving runs a 4.74 forty. I would hardly call him speedy. Is he faster than Mays? Yes. But he's not fast for NFL standards at the MLB position. He would have a difficult time covering most TE's.

To be fair, Irving was only one year removed from a devastating car crash which involved rods being put in his legs.

There is a reason why the FO basically red shirted the guy last year. General perception was that he was still a good bit off from 100% back last season.

Cmac821
06-05-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm not trying to razz you here, but you understand that with a suspect d-line, staying in a nickel defense is just another way to hand the Chiefs and Raiders 200 rushing yards per game?

Mays will be just fine as long as the coaches just ask him to play to his strengths and capabilities. He's not ever going to do well in coverage, but if he learns to read keys and ball movement a little better, he will be quite good. He's a natural thumper, and I think the Eagles drafted him as their next Jeremiah Trotter. He's not there yet, but he has the same skillset.

Hey not a problem, I'm little biased towards mays. Not a real fan of the his inconsistency and lack luster pass coverage. I don't remember seeing Jermiah Trottter play to much but either way I hope mays develops into a good MLB

Jetmeck
06-05-2012, 05:07 PM
you want to dump the guy whos consistantly led our team in tackles since hes been drafted lol? we need DJ

yep.............this^^^

glenwillett
06-05-2012, 08:10 PM
I'm really hoping that Irving can come on this season and steal that MLB job because for all the big hits he makes Mays can't cover a soul and I think the Pats showed us that there is a weakness in the middle of the field.

As far as DJ... He makes a lot of tackles but I honestly can't remember an impact play from the guy throughout his career for the life of me. Maybe I was spoiled by being raised on Al Wilson but I see most of his tackles coming after the LOS has already been broken through by the opposition.

That said, I don't think Woodyard is a good enough tackler to start consistently and probably never will be. I don't know much about Trevathan but I liked the clips I saw of him after he was drafted, however he's undersized like Woodyard which worries me about his ability to be able to tackle power backs and the now chic playmaking TEs around the league.

LB was a mess going into the off-season and I think we wasted an opportunity to grab a stud in Lavonte David to take Osweiler which is going to hurt us big time this season, especially during the Williams suspension.

g6matty
06-05-2012, 08:42 PM
I'm really hoping that Irving can come on this season and steal that MLB job because for all the big hits he makes Mays can't cover a soul and I think the Pats showed us that there is a weakness in the middle of the field.

As far as DJ... He makes a lot of tackles but I honestly can't remember an impact play from the guy throughout his career for the life of me. Maybe I was spoiled by being raised on Al Wilson but I see most of his tackles coming after the LOS has already been broken through by the opposition.

That said, I don't think Woodyard is a good enough tackler to start consistently and probably never will be. I don't know much about Trevathan but I liked the clips I saw of him after he was drafted, however he's undersized like Woodyard which worries me about his ability to be able to tackle power backs and the now chic playmaking TEs around the league.

LB was a mess going into the off-season and I think we wasted an opportunity to grab a stud in Lavonte David to take Osweiler which is going to hurt us big time this season, especially during the Williams suspension.

you mustnt have watched the strip sack he had in over time against miami that led to our victory

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2012, 09:12 PM
I'm really hoping that Irving can come on this season and steal that MLB job because for all the big hits he makes Mays can't cover a soul and I think the Pats showed us that there is a weakness in the middle of the field.

As far as DJ... He makes a lot of tackles but I honestly can't remember an impact play from the guy throughout his career for the life of me. Maybe I was spoiled by being raised on Al Wilson but I see most of his tackles coming after the LOS has already been broken through by the opposition.

That said, I don't think Woodyard is a good enough tackler to start consistently and probably never will be. I don't know much about Trevathan but I liked the clips I saw of him after he was drafted, however he's undersized like Woodyard which worries me about his ability to be able to tackle power backs and the now chic playmaking TEs around the league.

LB was a mess going into the off-season and I think we wasted an opportunity to grab a stud in Lavonte David to take Osweiler which is going to hurt us big time this season, especially during the Williams suspension.


We have to assume the Broncos want Irving to succeed as the eventual starting MLBer but as of right now, there's just not a whole lot of information on him (from a fan's perspective). I truly hope Irving emerges as the next great Broncos MLB and this coming training camp should be real interesting to watch and see where Irving is at compared to all the other LBers.

The other LBer that was productive in college but no one can seem to get any tape on is Steven Johnson. Kansas University is kind of a black hole when it comes to football so I kinda think that Steven Johnson didn't have a whole lotta help around him, however, he led the Big 12 in tackles.

R-Mac
06-05-2012, 09:36 PM
I like the depth at LB. The Broncos drafted 3 LBs in 2011 and Trevathan in 2012. Both NFL Draft Scout and Draft Countdown saw Steven Johnson and Jerry Franklin as possible late round picks. It's a solid group and the team can carry 7 of them during the season (3 backups + 1 to fill special teams). I'm also waiting for Nate Irving to take the starting job at MLB. I was surprised with the contract that Joe Mays received from the Broncos. He is not just limited in coverage, he also misses a lot of tackles. The Broncos need that vocal leader at MLB, and someone who can make calls before the snap and make big plays to inspire the defense. Good defenses usually have a good MLB with leadership skills. At least there is depth behind Mays, so he definitely is not the only hope.

Bacchus
06-05-2012, 09:41 PM
DJ will not miss 6 games. McBean didn't even try and his suspension was reduced to 3 games. The NFL has no leg to stand on.

Well, OK, whatever his suspension will be my I still stand by my statement that he will be a starter this year and somewhere else next year.

Bacchus
06-05-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm not a Joe Mays fan by any stretch of the imagination BUT Fox and Del Rio like him enough to give him 13 million AND "allegedly" if we didn't pay him he would be starting in Indianapolis or New Orleans.


That being said we still should have signed Jameel McClain....





:thumbs:

I like Joe Mays. He is not a great player but he is good and he is a great teammate and leader. I hope they find a way to keep him on the team even if he loses the starting job.

Shananahan
06-05-2012, 10:40 PM
I hope they find a way to keep him on the team even if he loses the starting job.
"Joe, do you remember Ty Warren?"

lonestar
06-05-2012, 10:45 PM
I don't know that you could really back this statement up with facts. Vilma and DJ have had pretty similar production. Vilma has a few more tackles, DJ has more sacks. Otherwise, they have had pretty similar production.

how many pro bowls for each?

and tackles should really not be THE measuring stick.. as most of DJ's were dragging someone down from behind in a chase postition while Vilmas were at or behind the LOS.. not many tackles for a lose for DJ but a butt load for Vilma..

Most of DJ's sack came the last two years.. before that a grand total of ten over his career.. Sorry but I'd have taken Vilma in a heart beat over DJ..

BW Vilma was Rookie of the year.. DJ well was not..

lonestar
06-05-2012, 11:05 PM
I do not have the back up on this but in this forum somewhere is a study by a respected web site, that showed May's to be one of the top rated tackling LB's in the NFL..

I know when I read it, I was surprised as all get out..

Not going to look it up but pretty sure I'm not the only one to read about it..

pricejj
06-05-2012, 11:20 PM
To be fair, Irving was only one year removed from a devastating car crash which involved rods being put in his legs.

There is a reason why the FO basically red shirted the guy last year. General perception was that he was still a good bit off from 100% back last season.

I like the kid, but the rod in his leg isn't going to make him faster. His leg has a honeycomb-like structure after the compound fracture, requiring the rod to stay in. I would venture to say that having metal in your leg is not the most comfortable of feelings in the violent game of football. He also seems to be a bit reserved for MLB, where we need a true leader. The only thing that would make him faster is these:

maher_tyler
06-05-2012, 11:25 PM
can we dump DJ and his antics if Trevathan or Woodyard prove to be adequate fill ins for the season?

DJ is quite a bit better than Woodyard imo

Why does it seem like DJ is older than 29?

pricejj
06-05-2012, 11:31 PM
Anybody trying to say D.J. isn't good, is a few fries short of a happy meal.

maher_tyler
06-05-2012, 11:45 PM
Anybody trying to say D.J. isn't good, is a few fries short of a happy meal.

He might not be that great but hes better than anything we have on the team. People seem to forget he was bounced around from his natrual position to SLB and MLB to playing in a 3-4 back to the 4-3 to his natrual position of WLB. If he didnt get jerked around so much, i think he would have lived up to expectations. Hopefully with a guy like JDR we can get him back on track. We also seem to forget the terrible dlines that have been infront of him his entire career.

If Mays starts, were ****ed! Expect a lot of toss plays and TEs going over the middle!

LongDongJohnson
06-06-2012, 12:15 AM
DJ is quite a bit better than Woodyard imo

Why does it seem like DJ is older than 29?

Prolly Cause DJ has been with us for 8 years. He's about to turn 30 next month.

Still though, at 30 I like him as our LB. He's very solid. Last 2 seasons he's had 10.5 sacks. He terrorized the bears and made a huge play against the dolphins.

Thing about DJ is he's pretty durable. He rarely gets injured. I really hope his suspension gets reduced.

Shananahan
06-06-2012, 12:23 AM
how many pro bowls for each?

and tackles should really not be THE measuring stick.. as most of DJ's were dragging someone down from behind in a chase postition while Vilmas were at or behind the LOS.. not many tackles for a lose for DJ but a butt load for Vilma..

Most of DJ's sack came the last two years.. before that a grand total of ten over his career.. Sorry but I'd have taken Vilma in a heart beat over DJ..

BW Vilma was Rookie of the year.. DJ well was not..
I'm not sure why you insist on getting into silly little unrelated arguments in every thread you post in, but Vilma really has nothing to do with anything pertaining to the Denver Broncos or their linebackers. While I'm wasting time responding to you, however, it's worth noting that Williams should have won DROY that season (although it's pretty meaningless at this point, even in the terms of your 'argument').

DJ Williams is at least a solid starter, if not above average. It's a shame he's been suspended and made a few mistakes off the field, but the amount of people that routinely complain about the guy on this board is ridiculous. WLB ain't broke while he's playing it, stop crying for it to be fixed.

lonestar
06-06-2012, 02:30 AM
Anybody trying to say D.J. isn't good, is a few fries short of a happy meal.

I'm not saying he is bad, just saying he is not worth the scheckles that Tanahan gave him. Those numbers are pro bowl numbers and the only way he gets to the pro bowl is buying a ticket.

He is a moron on top of everything else. DUI and now drugs. He is worse than a moron. Driving around town with his license plates and expecting NOT to get pulled over. Talk about a lot of French fries short of a Happy meal. He is your man.

lonestar
06-06-2012, 02:43 AM
I'm not sure why you insist on getting into silly little unrelated arguments in every thread you post in, but Vilma really has nothing to do with anything pertaining to the Denver Broncos or their linebackers. While I'm wasting time responding to you, however, it's worth noting that Williams should have won DROY that season (although it's pretty meaningless at this point, even in the terms of your 'argument').

DJ Williams is at least a solid starter, if not above average. It's a shame he's been suspended and made a few mistakes off the field, but the amount of people that routinely complain about the guy on this board is ridiculous. WLB ain't broke while he's playing it, stop crying for it to be fixed.

Iirc he the third highest paid guy on the team behind Champ and Manning. Is he worth that kind of money pardon me all to hell if I expect him to be a perineal all pro like the other two are. I'm not looking for a solid starter for iirc about nine mil this year. That kind of money is a higher standard than solid.

When Pat writes a check to Goodell for 25% of that tell me again he is worth it. Not even counting the potential jail time or suspension time for the DUI.
Time to start thinking with your big head and not the little one.

Boomhauer
06-06-2012, 02:50 AM
Mays will be just fine as long as the coaches just ask him to play to his strengths and capabilities. He's not ever going to do well in coverage, but if he learns to read keys and ball movement a little better, he will be quite good. He's a natural thumper, and I think the Eagles drafted him as their next Jeremiah Trotter. He's not there yet, but he has the same skillset.

And what are those "strengths and capabilities"?

1) Most here would probably agree he covers about as well as a DE, so that's out. I've heard talk of him being a "destroyer" or "thumper", and I'm sure he can lay a mean hit on a tackling dummy, but he's a whiff-master during gametime.
2) Most important role for an MLB is to crush the inside run, but I can't even count the number of times Mays got juked out of his jockstrap by a headfake in the hole, leaving him no recourse but a flailing attempt at a hand tackle. The defense even kept two guys inside, usually Dawkins or DJ, to help him out, but the same headfake would send Mays crashing into that player.
3) Combined, Mays is entirely ineffective stuffing off-tackle. He has the "speed" to shuffle 3yrds, but whiffs on the RB or gets caught in traffic. I'd add in how he dislocated DJ's elbow flying in late to a tackle only to lower the boom on DJ and break the RB free.
4) So maybe you think he can be a sack artist, except his freightrain rumbling is easily sidestepped by even the most immobile QBs.

Mays = Money down the drain and a major hole in the defense. Hopefully Mohamed or Irving start this year.

lonestar
06-06-2012, 03:00 AM
And what are those "strengths and capabilities"?

1) Most here would probably agree he covers about as well as a DE, so that's out. I've heard talk of him being a "destroyer" or "thumper", and I'm sure he can lay a mean hit on a tackling dummy, but he's a whiff-master during gametime.
2) Most important role for an MLB is to crush the inside run, but I can't even count the number of times Mays got juked out of his jockstrap by a headfake in the hole, leaving him no recourse but a flailing attempt at a hand tackle. The defense even kept two guys inside, usually Dawkins or DJ, to help him out, but the same headfake would send Mays crashing into that player.
3) Combined, Mays is entirely ineffective stuffing off-tackle. He has the "speed" to shuffle 3yrds, but whiffs on the RB or gets caught in traffic. I'd add in how he dislocated DJ's elbow flying in late to a tackle only to lower the boom on DJ and break the RB free.
4) So maybe you think he can be a sack artist, except his freightrain rumbling is easily sidestepped by even the most immobile QBs.

Mays = Money down the drain and a major hole in the defense. Hopefully Mohamed or Irving start this year.
So Fox and JDR who both know LBs made a mistake.
Hey call John ans ask for their job after telling him they screwed the pooch.

Let us know the outcome.

Boomhauer
06-06-2012, 03:01 AM
OP - Scouting the Broncos: 2012 Linebackers
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa444/Paxil_Rose/rtt.png

My pre-preseason depth;

WLB - We only have two traditional 4-3 Wills on the team, but Del Rio may chose to change things up a bit. DJ is still a ProBowl player and Woodyard a solid backup, but we don't have any other LBs with the speed to play zone-coverage LB.

MLB - Three good options here. I have Mohamed at the top of my depth chart and Irving right behind, just like last season. Third is our undrafted rookie Jerry Franklin, but he could surprise if he's as heady as Mohamed and as agile as Irving. The other option is not an option - Mays.

SLB - Again three good options here, but like WLB we have a ProBowl player starting - Miller. I've penciled in Obiozor as his backup and Steven Johnson as third string.

LB - Battling for a P-Squad spot I have Trevathan and Coffey. Neither has standout ability at any position or skill, but could stick around on the 'Squad to fill in late season or compete next season.

Boomhauer
06-06-2012, 03:05 AM
...Let us know the outcome.

1) The outcome was the play all last year in which Mays was a disaster.
2) You haven't disputed anything I said. Does that mean you completely agree with it, don't watch the Broncos so can't answer intelligently, or put unquestioning faith in the FO even though your eyes say otherwise?
3) Do tell tool. I'm curious how your gears turn - or don't as the case may be.

CEH
06-06-2012, 06:04 AM
DJ is way over paid for not being an impact LBer. That money could be spent elsewhere. I hope someone steps up and they can free up that money for another player.

alkemical
06-06-2012, 06:15 AM
I'm not sure why you insist on getting into silly little unrelated arguments in every thread you post in, but Vilma really has nothing to do with anything pertaining to the Denver Broncos or their linebackers. While I'm wasting time responding to you, however, it's worth noting that Williams should have won DROY that season (although it's pretty meaningless at this point, even in the terms of your 'argument').

DJ Williams is at least a solid starter, if not above average. It's a shame he's been suspended and made a few mistakes off the field, but the amount of people that routinely complain about the guy on this board is ridiculous. WLB ain't broke while he's playing it, stop crying for it to be fixed.

I think he's what you want when you draft: A productive, durable player who does anything you ask.

Mogulseeker
06-06-2012, 06:18 AM
If Mays is replaced by Irving, that is going to be a lot of speed on the field. With WW and Irving laying some big hits

Eh... Irving never impressed me with speed.

pricejj
06-06-2012, 08:22 AM
I'm not saying he is bad, just saying he is not worth the scheckles that Tanahan gave him. Those numbers are pro bowl numbers and the only way he gets to the pro bowl is buying a ticket.


D.J. has brought some bad attention to himself for those 2 DUI's, and now the "non-human" urine sample...I hate that. If he is suspended for a 6 games this year, it will be a BIG blow to the Broncos D. However, he is a very good player. He has probably been the Broncos 2nd best Defensive player over the last 8 years.

I don't think he's overpaid. The salary cap is $120M. If you give about $88 for 22 starters, and about $32M for 31 reserves, you would average:

$4M per starter
$1.03M per reserve

D.J. makes $5M. He's a playmaker in the prime of his career. You might even consider him a bit of a bargain.

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2012, 08:55 AM
He might not be that great but hes better than anything we have on the team. People seem to forget he was bounced around from his natrual position to SLB and MLB to playing in a 3-4 back to the 4-3 to his natrual position of WLB. If he didnt get jerked around so much, i think he would have lived up to expectations. Hopefully with a guy like JDR we can get him back on track. We also seem to forget the terrible dlines that have been infront of him his entire career.

If Mays starts, were ****ed! Expect a lot of toss plays and TEs going over the middle!

To DJ's credit, he's been through a lot of crap with the Broncos. Who knows how great he could have been had the Broncos had one good defensive coordinator duing DJ's time with the Broncos?

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2012, 09:00 AM
My pre-preseason depth;

WLB - We only have two traditional 4-3 Wills on the team, but Del Rio may chose to change things up a bit. DJ is still a ProBowl player and Woodyard a solid backup, but we don't have any other LBs with the speed to play zone-coverage LB.

MLB - Three good options here. I have Mohamed at the top of my depth chart and Irving right behind, just like last season. Third is our undrafted rookie Jerry Franklin, but he could surprise if he's as heady as Mohamed and as agile as Irving. The other option is not an option - Mays.

SLB - Again three good options here, but like WLB we have a ProBowl player starting - Miller. I've penciled in Obiozor as his backup and Steven Johnson as third string.

LB - Battling for a P-Squad spot I have Trevathan and Coffey. Neither has standout ability at any position or skill, but could stick around on the 'Squad to fill in late season or compete next season.

I'm not sure why some people think Mohamed is something special. I seriously doubt he even makes the team this year.

cmhargrove
06-06-2012, 09:20 AM
how many pro bowls for each?

and tackles should really not be THE measuring stick.. as most of DJ's were dragging someone down from behind in a chase postition while Vilmas were at or behind the LOS.. not many tackles for a lose for DJ but a butt load for Vilma..

Most of DJ's sack came the last two years.. before that a grand total of ten over his career.. Sorry but I'd have taken Vilma in a heart beat over DJ..

BW Vilma was Rookie of the year.. DJ well was not..

Just a point of order, but tackles should be THE measuring stick for a linebacker. The pro-bowl is often deserved, but is usually a popularity contest, you know that.

DJ isn't my favorite linebacker, but he's far from our weak point. Vilma has had the luxury of playing on much better defenses for most of his career - he's had better d-lines and supporting cast makes it a lot easier to look good (although I agree he is very good). That's all beside the point in this argument about DJ's contribution to Del Rio's new defense, which brings up another point. How many linebackers have been asked to play as many positions in as many defenses over the past 7-8 years? Every year a new DC, a new system, new terminology, new teammates.

And, the DROY thing. Didn't DJ come in a close second? This doesn't really add weight to your argument about Vilma being a significantly superior player.

I'm not a DJ apologist, let's replace him. However, we need to find someone that can outcompete him first.

cmhargrove
06-06-2012, 09:27 AM
And what are those "strengths and capabilities"?

1) Most here would probably agree he covers about as well as a DE, so that's out. I've heard talk of him being a "destroyer" or "thumper", and I'm sure he can lay a mean hit on a tackling dummy, but he's a whiff-master during gametime.
2) Most important role for an MLB is to crush the inside run, but I can't even count the number of times Mays got juked out of his jockstrap by a headfake in the hole, leaving him no recourse but a flailing attempt at a hand tackle. The defense even kept two guys inside, usually Dawkins or DJ, to help him out, but the same headfake would send Mays crashing into that player.
3) Combined, Mays is entirely ineffective stuffing off-tackle. He has the "speed" to shuffle 3yrds, but whiffs on the RB or gets caught in traffic. I'd add in how he dislocated DJ's elbow flying in late to a tackle only to lower the boom on DJ and break the RB free.
4) So maybe you think he can be a sack artist, except his freightrain rumbling is easily sidestepped by even the most immobile QBs.

Mays = Money down the drain and a major hole in the defense. Hopefully Mohamed or Irving start this year.

Mays still has a long way to go, but so does the entire unit. "Great" linebacker play is generally a product of a good d-line. Even the best linebackers get exposed when they are constantly battling offensive linemen instead of having more direct shots at the ball carrier.

So, I think the linebackers will be ok as long as we get the d-line playing up to a higher level. I'm much more concerned about the line.

I think Mays could be a fine two-down MLB if we get our line in order. If Mays gets his crap together and takes the position, I will be just as happy. But we won't be a stout defense until our d-line play improves.

Bronco Rob
06-06-2012, 01:54 PM
Mays still has a long way to go, but so does the entire unit. "Great" linebacker play is generally a product of a good d-line. Even the best linebackers get exposed when they are constantly battling offensive linemen instead of having more direct shots at the ball carrier.

So, I think the linebackers will be ok as long as we get the d-line playing up to a higher level. I'm much more concerned about the line.

I think Mays could be a fine two-down MLB if we get our line in order. If Mays gets his crap together and takes the position, I will be just as happy. But we won't be a stout defense until our d-line play improves.




:thumbs:

lonestar
06-06-2012, 02:04 PM
Just a point of order, but tackles should be THE measuring stick for a linebacker. The pro-bowl is often deserved, but is usually a popularity contest, you know that.

DJ isn't my favorite linebacker, but he's far from our weak point. Vilma has had the luxury of playing on much better defenses for most of his career - he's had better d-lines and supporting cast makes it a lot easier to look good (although I agree he is very good). That's all beside the point in this argument about DJ's contribution to Del Rio's new defense, which brings up another point. How many linebackers have been asked to play as many positions in as many defenses over the past 7-8 years? Every year a new DC, a new system, new terminology, new teammates.

And, the DROY thing. Didn't DJ come in a close second? This doesn't really add weight to your argument about Vilma being a significantly superior player.

I'm not a DJ apologist, let's replace him. However, we need to find someone that can outcompete him first.

actually it does sound like your his wet-nurse..

Yes DJ played loads of spots..

yes he has led the team in tackles.

but zero leadership, and almost no tackles for loss and almost all of the ones he made were AFTER they made the first down, his coverage skills are almost as bad as Mays's..

a competent LB YES, but not one making a gazillion dollars IMO..

IIRC Woodyard has stepped in and played at about the same skill set for peanuts..

Boomhauer
06-07-2012, 12:07 AM
I'm not sure why some people think Mohamed is something special. I seriously doubt he even makes the team this year.

His downside; Seeing his play last preseason and senior year, he has really stiff hips that robs him of quickness. Though he's fast once he turns his shoulders and hips to get moving, the several steps that takes is a problem. I mentioned this last preseason and recommended a year of training specifically on lateral quickness.

His upside; Really smart and instinctive player. Knows the MLB position on a reactionary level and smells the play before the linemen can block or RB gets the handoff. Likewise he knows what routes will be moving through his zone before receivers break and watches the QB with one eye, the receivers with the other.

Nate Irving is the exact opposite of Mohamed - Athletically gifted but slow to diagnose plays. Between the two, I'd take Mohamed's skillset over Irving's, but ideally one of them has minimized their weakness during the last year and is ready to start.
Mays and undrafted rookie Franklin have a combination of Mohamed and Irving's weaknesses. But as Franklin is a little more agile and fundamental, as well as being a rook ready to learn instead of a drastically overpaid veteran scrub incapable of improving, I've penciled Franklin in as 3rd MLB.

Snips of Jerry Franklin's scouting report.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1273385/jerry-franklin
Positives: Has a wide trunk and thickly-built frame with good enough length (33 1/4-inch arms). Strong and stout against the run, filling lanes with power and an attacking mentality. Big, aggressive hitter who can lay the wood. -Like Mays
Has good awareness to quickly locate the ball, keeping his eyes up and on point. Has good balance and short-area burst to stay on his feet through contact. -Unlike Mays
Negatives: -All like Mays
Very average athletically with limited explosive qualities and lateral range to the sideline. Lacks fluidity to hold up in space or drop in coverage. Lacks functional strength to shed and take on blocks at the point of attack. Washed out and caught in traffic in the middle of the field. Questionable instincts and recognition skills with inconsistent reads, easily biting on fakes. Hits up high and misses more tackles than he should.

Tombstone RJ
06-07-2012, 09:18 AM
His downside; Seeing his play last preseason and senior year, he has really stiff hips that robs him of quickness. Though he's fast once he turns his shoulders and hips to get moving, the several steps that takes is a problem. I mentioned this last preseason and recommended a year of training specifically on lateral quickness.

His upside; Really smart and instinctive player. Knows the MLB position on a reactionary level and smells the play before the linemen can block or RB gets the handoff. Likewise he knows what routes will be moving through his zone before receivers break and watches the QB with one eye, the receivers with the other.

Nate Irving is the exact opposite of Mohamed - Athletically gifted but slow to diagnose plays. Between the two, I'd take Mohamed's skillset over Irving's, but ideally one of them has minimized their weakness during the last year and is ready to start.
Mays and undrafted rookie Franklin have a combination of Mohamed and Irving's weaknesses. But as Franklin is a little more agile and fundamental, as well as being a rook ready to learn instead of a drastically overpaid veteran scrub incapable of improving, I've penciled Franklin in as 3rd MLB.

Snips of Jerry Franklin's scouting report.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1273385/jerry-franklin
Positives: Has a wide trunk and thickly-built frame with good enough length (33 1/4-inch arms). Strong and stout against the run, filling lanes with power and an attacking mentality. Big, aggressive hitter who can lay the wood. -Like Mays
Has good awareness to quickly locate the ball, keeping his eyes up and on point. Has good balance and short-area burst to stay on his feet through contact. -Unlike Mays
Negatives: -All like Mays
Very average athletically with limited explosive qualities and lateral range to the sideline. Lacks fluidity to hold up in space or drop in coverage. Lacks functional strength to shed and take on blocks at the point of attack. Washed out and caught in traffic in the middle of the field. Questionable instincts and recognition skills with inconsistent reads, easily biting on fakes. Hits up high and misses more tackles than he should.

I guess we will see about Mohamed and Irving. From what I remember about Irving is he is good at diagnosing the play and has good instincts so I'm not sure where you are getting the above bolded info.

R-Mac
06-07-2012, 09:42 AM
Mike Mohamed outperformed Nate Irving in the 40-yard dash, broad jump and 3-cone drill. Irving probably lost a lot of his athletic ability after that car crash.

cmhargrove
06-07-2012, 10:15 AM
actually it does sound like your his wet-nurse..

Yes DJ played loads of spots..

yes he has led the team in tackles.

but zero leadership, and almost no tackles for loss and almost all of the ones he made were AFTER they made the first down, his coverage skills are almost as bad as Mays's..

a competent LB YES, but not one making a gazillion dollars IMO..

IIRC Woodyard has stepped in and played at about the same skill set for peanuts..

Wet nurse, what a dickhead.

Your boy Vilma has 7 TFL's for his career, to go with 10 sacks and 11 forced fumbles.

DJ, the baby that I suckle, has 17 TFL's, 20.5 sacks and 13 forced fumbles. Go ahead, spin away. Make me believe that all the tackles, sacks, and forced fumbles aren't important...

DJ isn't the best linebacker in the nfl, not by a longshot. However, for all the crap he gets around here, he certainly isn't a weak point on this team. If he had been playing behind the Jets D-line, then a superbowl caliber NO line, he would "look" much better (as would any linebacker). DJ is getting old, and will soon need to be replaced, but the real issue is still the d-line.

ward63
06-07-2012, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure why some people think Mohamed is something special. I seriously doubt he even makes the team this year.

He didn't last year at the beginning of the year, but worked to get onto the roster. I expect that he gets back on the practice squad again to start this season off.

ward63
06-07-2012, 11:12 AM
DJ needs to stay and realize that Denver will need some of that money back, so restructure. I completely agree with the person that stated that he's always had a new position and/or a new coordinator. Well its happening again, but luckily he got a veteran coordinator that can do some pretty good things and is flexible. He's not the greatest LB, but pretty solid.

With the rest of our linebackers, I do hope that some competition heats up between the rookies and second year guys. Also, I believe that Irving will show up this season and progress. The guy was in a bad car wreck and wasn't able to work with the training staff, so give the guy a little bit of a break.

DivineLegion
06-07-2012, 11:42 AM
His downside; Seeing his play last preseason and senior year, he has really stiff hips that robs him of quickness. Though he's fast once he turns his shoulders and hips to get moving, the several steps that takes is a problem. I mentioned this last preseason and recommended a year of training specifically on lateral quickness.

His upside; Really smart and instinctive player. Knows the MLB position on a reactionary level and smells the play before the linemen can block or RB gets the handoff. Likewise he knows what routes will be moving through his zone before receivers break and watches the QB with one eye, the receivers with the other.

Nate Irving is the exact opposite of Mohamed - Athletically gifted but slow to diagnose plays. Between the two, I'd take Mohamed's skillset over Irving's, but ideally one of them has minimized their weakness during the last year and is ready to start.
Mays and undrafted rookie Franklin have a combination of Mohamed and Irving's weaknesses. But as Franklin is a little more agile and fundamental, as well as being a rook ready to learn instead of a drastically overpaid veteran scrub incapable of improving, I've penciled Franklin in as 3rd MLB.

Snips of Jerry Franklin's scouting report.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1273385/jerry-franklin
Positives: Has a wide trunk and thickly-built frame with good enough length (33 1/4-inch arms). Strong and stout against the run, filling lanes with power and an attacking mentality. Big, aggressive hitter who can lay the wood. -Like Mays
Has good awareness to quickly locate the ball, keeping his eyes up and on point. Has good balance and short-area burst to stay on his feet through contact. -Unlike Mays
Negatives: -All like Mays
Very average athletically with limited explosive qualities and lateral range to the sideline. Lacks fluidity to hold up in space or drop in coverage. Lacks functional strength to shed and take on blocks at the point of attack. Washed out and caught in traffic in the middle of the field. Questionable instincts and recognition skills with inconsistent reads, easily biting on fakes. Hits up high and misses more tackles than he should.


Nate Irvings insticts are what got him drafted in the 3rd round. You need to go back and watch more tape of Nate playing for NC State.

maher_tyler
06-07-2012, 12:14 PM
actually it does sound like your his wet-nurse..

Yes DJ played loads of spots..

yes he has led the team in tackles.

but zero leadership, and almost no tackles for loss and almost all of the ones he made were AFTER they made the first down, his coverage skills are almost as bad as Mays's..

a competent LB YES, but not one making a gazillion dollars IMO..

IIRC Woodyard has stepped in and played at about the same skill set for peanuts..

1. You have no clue what kinda of leadership abilities DJ has...you are not in the locker room/at practices or on the field with the guy on game day.

2. Taclkes for loss. We've had average at best to ****ing terrible defensive lines his entire career here. Our lone pro bowler from the d-line is Doom..a pass rush specialist. ASk Ray Lewis what a good d-line can do for you!

3. Totally disagree on the coverage skills. Woodyard is terrible in coverage. DJ out of the 3 starters from last year is the best in coverage. Comparing him to Mays is a joke. If Woodyard was as good or better he would start, period end of discussion.

Not saying we couldn't find someone better at some point but right now he's the best we have and has been his entire career here at his position. As much as we've asked him to move around and the revolving door at d-coord...i don't think it'd be right to ask him for a pay cut. He's done everything he's been asked with no complaint as far as we know. Could have easily asked for a trade but didn't. The guy deserves a little more respect than what he's getting in this thread imo.

Bronco Rob
06-09-2012, 07:37 PM
http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=8027982




???

missingnumber7
06-09-2012, 07:54 PM
I'm gonna laugh my ass off while Mays starts all season at all you Mays haters here. Instinct and ability have proved themselves game after game. And if you want to rip on Joe for missed tackles in a handful of games last year, DJ has been the king of Whiff over the course of his career.

Bacchus
06-09-2012, 09:13 PM
I'm gonna laugh my ass off while Mays starts all season at all you Mays haters here. Instinct and ability have proved themselves game after game. And if you want to rip on Joe for missed tackles in a handful of games last year, DJ has been the king of Whiff over the course of his career.

I like Mays, he is what he is a good solid player. People here are way too criticle. Everyone sucks or they are hall of famers. Both DJ and Mays are about the same. They are both good solid players. DJ maybe should have been more but he is what he is.

baja
06-09-2012, 09:13 PM
I'm gonna laugh my ass off while Mays starts all season at all you Mays haters here. Instinct and ability have proved themselves game after game. And if you want to rip on Joe for missed tackles in a handful of games last year, DJ has been the king of Whiff over the course of his career.

The guy has got a point...

lonestar
06-09-2012, 09:48 PM
1. You have no clue what kinda of leadership abilities DJ has...you are not in the locker room/at practices or on the field with the guy on game day.

2. Taclkes for loss. We've had average at best to ****ing terrible defensive lines his entire career here. Our lone pro bowler from the d-line is Doom..a pass rush specialist. ASk Ray Lewis what a good d-line can do for you!

3. Totally disagree on the coverage skills. Woodyard is terrible in coverage. DJ out of the 3 starters from last year is the best in coverage. Comparing him to Mays is a joke. If Woodyard was as good or better he would start, period end of discussion.

Not saying we couldn't find someone better at some point but right now he's the best we have and has been his entire career here at his position. As much as we've asked him to move around and the revolving door at d-coord...i don't think it'd be right to ask him for a pay cut. He's done everything he's been asked with no complaint as far as we know. Could have easily asked for a trade but didn't. The guy deserves a little more respect than what he's getting in this thread imo.


I believe that until this year we have not had a LEGIT DC since the super bowl years..

Tahahan sunk a mint into his ass and because of that past DC have not made a change..

DJ a leader sure he is, the poster child I'd want as a leader on the field .. NOT

Not sure but IIRC he has never been a captain on the field and IF he was he was stripped of it because of his conduct off the field..

Now it seems the clown is whining about being moved again..

As far as asking for money back the team would probably not do that, but IMO if he had the balls considering all the negatives he has brought to the club over his career here and especially that past year, he should be volunteering to give it back the team..

As for DL I have always said they suck at best, but his job is to be a LINE BACKER, clean up what they miss. if you have watched him play MOST of his tackles are dragging someone down from behind.

There are rare stop them at the LOS plays and the past couple of years he has made a couple of sacks but then last year he had Miller on one side and Doom on the other, my grandma might have been able to get 5 sacks also..

AS for Woodyard he used to play safety in college saying he has poor coverage skills is well laughable IMO..

for the money DJ is a loser.. he has never played to the level his contract rates.. IIRC the third highest salary number on the field prior to Dooms contract.. and he is not playing near his level of play..  

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=104984&highlight=salary+cap

Bacchus
06-09-2012, 11:42 PM
I believe that until this year we have not had a LEGIT DC since the super bowl years..

Tahahan sunk a mint into his ass and because of that past DC have not made a change..

DJ a leader sure he is, the poster child I'd want as a leader on the field .. NOT

Not sure but IIRC he has never been a captain on the field and IF he was he was stripped of it because of his conduct off the field..

Now it seems the clown is whining about being moved again..

As far as asking for money back the team would probably not do that, but IMO if he had the balls considering all the negatives he has brought to the club over his career here and especially that past year, he should be volunteering to give it back the team..

As for DL I have always said they suck at best, but his job is to be a LINE BACKER, clean up what they miss. if you have watched him play MOST of his tackles are dragging someone down from behind.

There are rare stop them at the LOS plays and the past couple of years he has made a couple of sacks but then last year he had Miller on one side and Doom on the other, my grandma might have been able to get 5 sacks also..

AS for Woodyard he used to play safety in college saying he has poor coverage skills is well laughable IMO..

for the money DJ is a loser.. he has never played to the level his contract rates.. IIRC the third highest salary number on the field prior to Dooms contract.. and he is not playing near his level of play..  

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=104984&highlight=salary+cap

Coyer was good. He lead Denver to the AFC CHampionship and then he got his SB ring with the Colts. Greg Robinson was the coordinator during the SB years and he was always getting ripped for the defense being too soft.

knuckleballah22
06-10-2012, 02:03 PM
they gotta keep Joe Mays hes a solid player and leader in the lockerroom

lonestar
06-10-2012, 02:06 PM
Coyer was good. He lead Denver to the AFC CHampionship and then he got his SB ring with the Colts. Greg Robinson was the coordinator during the SB years and he was always getting ripped for the defense being too soft.

Coyer like Tananan was a tactician read schemer had great opening drives but once the other team figured his scheme out, he was unable to counter it..

Neither were given loads of talent after that initial bunch in the SB years and frankly I think Tanahan did not like that Greg got Kudos for what he did.. and like everyone else tanahans EGO got in the way of allowing someone else to do it their way..

once again neither of them were "real" DC's and if your counting on coyers SB ring it was on Mannings team, about all they asked the defense to do was suit up.. If you look at that defense that year they were not worth a crap till Saunders came back at safety late in the year.

Please do not give coyer the credit for that SB ring..

 

lonestar
06-10-2012, 02:08 PM
Coyer was good. He lead Denver to the AFC CHampionship and then he got his SB ring with the Colts. Greg Robinson was the coordinator during the SB years and he was always getting ripped for the defense being too soft.

Let me add tanahan was fired because he would not fire coyer..

As for the AFCCG PIT kicked our asses on his defense..

but good try..

Bacchus
06-10-2012, 04:26 PM
Let me add tanahan was fired because he would not fire coyer..

As for the AFCCG PIT kicked our asses on his defense..

but good try..

You stated that Denver has not had a good Defensive Coordinator since the SB years. I pointed out to you that Coyer was just as good as Greg Robinson. Which is true. The things you say about Coyer you can absolutely say about Robinson. I think they were both good coordinators. That 2005 defense run by Coyer was one of the best in the NFL.

The last really good coordinator Denver had was Joe Collier.

but good try..

lonestar
06-10-2012, 04:41 PM
You stated that Denver has not had a good Defensive Coordinator since the SB years. I pointed out to you that Coyer was just as good as Greg Robinson. Which is true. The things you say about Coyer you can absolutely say about Robinson. I think they were both good coordinators. That 2005 defense run by Coyer was one of the best in the NFL.

The last really good coordinator Denver had was Joe Collier.

but good try..

I have never said that Robinson was a great DC.. he was ok and did well with thettalent he had..

Obviously tanahan and he did not get along.

and coyer was a joke.. almost from day one..

great schemer but did not have a clue how to adjust after the first quarter.. much like mikey tanahan was..

Let me add the last best DC was Wade before that Collier..