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sisterhellfyre
06-04-2012, 10:29 PM
I went to a shooting range on Sunday with a bunch of friends and had a great time. Over the day I fired several guns: a .22 bolt-action rifle, a semi-auto .22 pistol, .357 magnum revolver, .38 revolver, and a .30 cal M1 carbine of WW2 vintage. That last was a real treat cuz I've been a history buff since grade school. Unfortunately, I didn't have opportunity to try the .45 and 9mm pistols.

The rifles were fun, and I put down decent shot groups (esp considering it was my first time shooting since high school!), but I really liked the handguns more than the long guns. I'm thinking about picking up shooting as a hobby, but I really don't know where to begin. Just because it's the off-season, I thought I'd ask you guys what you have, what you like, and what you'd recommend for a beginner.

* I'm not likely to buy before next winter (Jan-Feb '13), so I have plenty of time for research.

* Shooting will primarily be a hobby, but defense is also at the back of my mind.

* My projected budget will be between $600 and $800 (not including other usefuls like a lockbox).

* I will be taking firearms safety classes, so that's a given.

* I'm left-handed and left-eyed, in case that makes a difference.

* Concealed carry permit is a definite "maybe." I haven't decided yet whether to seek it.

I'd love to hear your suggestions. Thanks in advance!

Drunken.Broncoholic
06-04-2012, 10:32 PM
It's hard to conceal, but bazookas are fun.

Mogulseeker
06-04-2012, 10:33 PM
M16 or GTFO.

OBF1
06-04-2012, 10:35 PM
My favorite is a Glock 9mm. Very user friendly.

BroncoMan4ever
06-04-2012, 11:24 PM
M16 or GTFO.

damn right!

zombie apocalypse happens and I am busting domes open with an M16.

baja
06-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Like Smurf I too am partial to the M16. Easy to keep in good working order. Lots of them around very common round. Light weight. Plus I know it very well.

Although most of the world prefers the AK47

lonestar
06-04-2012, 11:44 PM
Not sure what the purpose really is..

if your going to shoot targets at a distance the smaller the caliber will keep your shooting costs down..

If you have a hand gun do a conceal carry permit for many reasons, mostly so you can transport it without going to the trouble of carrying it in your trunk and ammo elsewhere..

The added benefit is they are great courses for gun safety and the pros teach you how to shoot..

Most folks do not just target shoot, have a brother that uses a 22 and a 17 for hunting varmints on his ranch.. he loads the 17 with a LR high power 22 shell that has the 17 as the slug.. he is hitting ground squirrels at in excess of 300 yard.
The crows follow him when he goes out in the hunting truck.

If your thinking of hunting bigger game 30-06 is a super weapon.. Been around forever and you can reload the brass.

Hand guns again depending on what you want to do with them. from 22 to 45 caliber.

I keep a 45, Glock 9 and 380 in the house.. mainly practice with the 380 as the ammo is way cheaper than the 45..

Since I do not hunt or figure I'm going to be shooting anyone more than 35 feet away I do not have and long rifles anymore.. but do have a nice 12 gauge..

I figure that anyone coming into my house un announced, if they get past the 90 pound Weimaraner will not get past the 45 or 12 gauge..

My advise is going to gun shows and talk to the old farts that have guns.. See what they use them for and then study up on ammo and read all you can about the various brands.

Then go to a smaller gun store and trust the owner you may pay more for a gun but it will be well worth it when you have questions and I guarantee you will have questions, hard to get good answers from the snot nosed kid at walmart..

also make sure if there are kids in the house they take a gun safety class and get yourself a gun safe..

Since I have no kiddies around anymore not to worry..††

baja
06-04-2012, 11:56 PM
Not sure what the purpose really is..

if your going to shoot targets at a distance the smaller the caliber will keep your shooting costs down..

If you have a hand gun do a conceal carry permit for many reasons, mostly so you can transport it without going to the trouble of carrying it in your trunk and ammo elsewhere..

The added benefit is they are great courses for gun safety and the pros teach you how to shoot..

Most folks do not just target shoot, have a brother that uses a 22 and a 17 for hunting varmints on his ranch.. he loads the 17 with a LR high power 22 shell that has the 17 as the slug.. he is hitting ground squirrels at in excess of 300 yard.
The crows follow him when he goes out in the hunting truck.

If your thinking of hunting bigger game 30-06 is a super weapon.. Been around forever and you can reload the brass.

Hand guns again depending on what you want to do with them. from 22 to 45 caliber.

I keep a 45, Glock 9 and 380 in the house.. mainly practice with the 380 as the ammo is way cheaper than the 45..

Since I do not hunt or figure I'm going to be shooting anyone more than 35 feet away I do not have and long rifles anymore.. but do have a nice 12 gauge..

I figure that anyone coming into my house un announced, if they get past the 90 pound Weimaraner will not get past the 45 or 12 gauge..

My advise is going to gun shows and talk to the old farts that have guns.. See what they use them for and then study up on ammo and read all you can about the various brands.

Then go to a smaller gun store and trust the owner you may pay more for a gun but it will be well worth it when you have questions and I guarantee you will have questions, hard to get good answers from the snot nosed kid at walmart..

also make sure if there are kids in the house they take a gun safety class and get yourself a gun safe..

Since I have no kiddies around anymore not to worry..††

Good post

Dutch
06-05-2012, 12:18 AM
Here we go, and boy did you open a can of worms on this one without even knowing it!:~ohyah!: You need to narrow things down a bit. Do you want something to go to the range and shoot (ie. targets with)? Do you want a home defense weapon? Do you want to be able to carry/conceal? Honestly, those are such different requirements...you need to think about more than one piece. For home defense, shotgun. No question, no debate. Anyone who argues with this has no clue. 12 guage would be good, 10 is better. I use a Benelli Supernova Tactical :http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli-supernova-tactical.php with pistol grip. 18" barrel is easy to maneuver around in close quarters, but they are now making a 14" that would be even better. 3.5 inch shells in a deer slug will go through a fridge, or anything else the idiot hides behind. No where to run, no where to hide. Load it buck shot, deer slug, buck shot, deer slug all the way down, and get the magazine extension that will give you one in the pipe, seven in the mag. Buck shot sends them for cover, deer slug finishes the job. Home defense, done. Can be had for around 4 bills, and can change barrels to longer versions for skeet, birdhunting, rifled hunting, etc. Read a nice review here: http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/2635/benelli-supernova/. Shotguns are the bomb for home defense. Not only that, name me a sound that will make your insides turn to water faster than the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round if you are doing no good. Unmistakable. The Corps is using the Benelli M4 semiauto for urban fighting, and they love it. Good enough for me. My wife has a 1966 Ithica 16 gauge Featherlight (awesome trap gun) on her side of the bed that was my Mother's and we have an attack plan that will keep me from being hit by her line of fire. Woe be it to the poor bastard who chooses our place for a hit.

Dutch
06-05-2012, 12:43 AM
My favorite is a Glock 9mm. Very user friendly.

Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.

Broncos4tw
06-05-2012, 12:43 AM
M16? Ugh. I hated that rifle. Fire one round, and you are cleaning it for an hour. Get one speck of sand in it, and it jams. The M16A1 was a bit better, but still pretty crappy. It's why I preferred to be the M60 gunner.. just so I would have a solid weapon to fire. The M60 I could drop in a swamp and it would fire just fine. Only issue I ever had was bent firing pins.. so kept spares.

The AK was vastly superior.. loved it. Although, a bit inaccurate in comparison to the M16. Can't have it all though.

For a pistol, can't go wrong with a Glock. Also liked Walther - you can use it and tell people "I'm Bond. James Bond."

Dutch
06-05-2012, 12:49 AM
Not sure what the purpose really is..

if your going to shoot targets at a distance the smaller the caliber will keep your shooting costs down..

If you have a hand gun do a conceal carry permit for many reasons, mostly so you can transport it without going to the trouble of carrying it in your trunk and ammo elsewhere..

The added benefit is they are great courses for gun safety and the pros teach you how to shoot..

Most folks do not just target shoot, have a brother that uses a 22 and a 17 for hunting varmints on his ranch.. he loads the 17 with a LR high power 22 shell that has the 17 as the slug.. he is hitting ground squirrels at in excess of 300 yard.
The crows follow him when he goes out in the hunting truck.

If your thinking of hunting bigger game 30-06 is a super weapon.. Been around forever and you can reload the brass.

Hand guns again depending on what you want to do with them. from 22 to 45 caliber.

I keep a 45, Glock 9 and 380 in the house.. mainly practice with the 380 as the ammo is way cheaper than the 45..

Since I do not hunt or figure I'm going to be shooting anyone more than 35 feet away I do not have and long rifles anymore.. but do have a nice 12 gauge..

I figure that anyone coming into my house un announced, if they get past the 90 pound Weimaraner will not get past the 45 or 12 gauge..

My advise is going to gun shows and talk to the old farts that have guns.. See what they use them for and then study up on ammo and read all you can about the various brands.

Then go to a smaller gun store and trust the owner you may pay more for a gun but it will be well worth it when you have questions and I guarantee you will have questions, hard to get good answers from the snot nosed kid at walmart..

also make sure if there are kids in the house they take a gun safety class and get yourself a gun safe..

Since I have no kiddies around anymore not to worry..††

Agreed with everything West Texas says in this one....mark that down, I think it's a first...:approve:

myMind
06-05-2012, 12:49 AM
knuckle draggers

Dutch
06-05-2012, 12:54 AM
M16? Ugh. I hated that rifle. Fire one round, and you are cleaning it for an hour. Get one speck of sand in it, and it jams. The M16A1 was a bit better, but still pretty crappy. It's why I preferred to be the M60 gunner.. just so I would have a solid weapon to fire. The M60 I could drop in a swamp and it would fire just fine. Only issue I ever had was bent firing pins.. so kept spares.

The AK was vastly superior.. loved it. Although, a bit inaccurate in comparison to the M16. Can't have it all though.

For a pistol, can't go wrong with a Glock. Also liked Walther - you can use it and tell people "I'm Bond. James Bond."

You're just an old 'Nam fart.:giggle: The new M16 A4 is a badassed killer, Bro'. Lightweight, fast, adjustable to any body frame...and no more jamming issues. Ak's rock for reliability and punch, but they never...ever touched the 16's for accuracy and now they don't for reliability either, plus we can hump twice the ammo.

Archer81
06-05-2012, 01:05 AM
Good idea. its obvious the Zombie apocalypse is starting.

Get some machetes and you my friend are ready to rock.

:Broncos:

Dutch
06-05-2012, 01:06 AM
knuckle draggers

Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.

BroncoMan4ever
06-05-2012, 01:18 AM
Good idea. its obvious the Zombie apocalypse is starting.

Get some machetes and you my friend are ready to rock.

:Broncos:

http://rlv.zcache.com/zombies_machetes_dont_run_out_of_ammo_mouse_pad_mo usepad-p144198975900954846en7lc_210.jpg

Dutch
06-05-2012, 02:10 AM
Sisterhellfyre,
If you are a gal (and you probably are, so here is the assumption), take a look at the Smith & Wesson model 60 "Ladysmith" 357 revolver:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765590_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
My wife has one, and she loves it. Grip scaled for a woman's hand, 5 rounds instead of 6 to reduce heft. Great gun, and she is spooky good with it. "Point like a finger, and shoot" she laughs.....dead black, 90% of the time. She doesn't score as well with anything else we own, with the possible exception of the Walther PPKS (380) and the 357 has more punch.

Bacchus
06-05-2012, 02:28 AM
I went to a shooting range on Sunday with a bunch of friends and had a great time. Over the day I fired several guns: a .22 bolt-action rifle, a semi-auto .22 pistol, .357 magnum revolver, .38 revolver, and a .30 cal M1 carbine of WW2 vintage. That last was a real treat cuz I've been a history buff since grade school. Unfortunately, I didn't have opportunity to try the .45 and 9mm pistols.

The rifles were fun, and I put down decent shot groups (esp considering it was my first time shooting since high school!), but I really liked the handguns more than the long guns. I'm thinking about picking up shooting as a hobby, but I really don't know where to begin. Just because it's the off-season, I thought I'd ask you guys what you have, what you like, and what you'd recommend for a beginner.

* I'm not likely to buy before next winter (Jan-Feb '13), so I have plenty of time for research.

* Shooting will primarily be a hobby, but defense is also at the back of my mind.

* My projected budget will be between $600 and $800 (not including other usefuls like a lockbox).

* I will be taking firearms safety classes, so that's a given.

* I'm left-handed and left-eyed, in case that makes a difference.

* Concealed carry permit is a definite "maybe." I haven't decided yet whether to seek it.

I'd love to hear your suggestions. Thanks in advance!

Gun advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your handgun will be used to shoot someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your house.

2KBack
06-05-2012, 04:28 AM
Gun advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your handgun will be used to shoot someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your house.

Statistically her gun is far more likely to never shoot anyone.

Me and my Family have always been revolver shooters for the simplicity and reliability. They are just so easy to maintain. I belueve it was dutch that suggested the .357. I think that's a great place to start, you can shoot .38 rounds, but when you need a real punch you can switch up to the .357. Ruger has a very good selection.

Of course I say that, but I have been spending all my time with a Springfield XDm 40.

Also, the .223 is a waste. If you are going to get a rifle or an AR, go .308.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 04:48 AM
I have many guns. I believe that the best handgun to start off the hobby with is a double action revolver, such as a Ruger GP100 or one of the large frame Smith and Wesson's. The best caliber to get is 357 magnum. The reasons are that, starting off, it's more rewarding to be about to point and shoot, and not have to think about racking the slide or fiddling with a safety, or removing a magazine, or making sure that there is not a round in the chamber after you have removed the magazine. A revolver is point and shoot -- you can practice getting really comfortable handling it, always pointing down range, never pointing it in an unsafe direction, etc.

I say this from experience -- get a full sized revolver as your first weapon, and a semi-automatic pistol as your second. You will always be able to use both anyway (a revolver makes a great weapon for the home to keep loaded in a hand safe, no magazine springs to wear out, and you don't have to decide whether to rack the slide in the dark if you ever hear something).

If you get a semi-automatic, I'd get a Sig Sauer. They are premium quality, and I like the rare de-cocking mechanism that Sig's have. You can chamber a round, de-cock, and then fire them with a double action (full trigger pull). Sig's can fire from un-cocked double action, and then each subsequent shot is single action. (Or you cock and the first shot is single action).

I'm not a fan of Glocks. Don't get that as your first.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 04:50 AM
The reason I think the best caliber revolver to get is 357 is that (1) the 357 has superior stopping power for self defense, better than 9 mm, and (2) you can fire 38 specials through it for less recoil. This comes in handy if you want to shoot with a girl (train her), or just take it easy in your trips to the range. It's easier to get a girl or young person comfortable with the weapon if you can shoot 38 specials. The recoil of a 357 is kind of a turn off to a newbie.

rugbythug
06-05-2012, 05:26 AM
357- practice with 38 specials. Keep it loaded for defense with 357. Its what I do.

Tauras tracker I believe.

JLesSPE
06-05-2012, 06:13 AM
Statistically her gun is far more likely to never shoot anyone.

Me and my Family have always been revolver shooters for the simplicity and reliability. They are just so easy to maintain. I belueve it was dutch that suggested the .357. I think that's a great place to start, you can shoot .38 rounds, but when you need a real punch you can switch up to the .357. Ruger has a very good selection.

Of course I say that, but I have been spending all my time with a Springfield XDm 40.

Also, the .223 is a waste. If you are going to get a rifle or an AR, go .308.

You can't compare the .223 and the .308 ARs. Apples and oranges man. Completely different applications not to mention the extreme difference in price point for both the gun and the ammo.

JLesSPE
06-05-2012, 06:16 AM
Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.

Totally agree with this. I shoot 9mm in competition purely because of the low recoil. My carry pistol is .40 for the reasons you list above. Also you have a higher round capacity in a .40 than a .45.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 06:17 AM
By the way, it should be said -- if you had said home defense was your primary purpose, there is nothing better than a pump action 12 gauge shotgun. You would win most encounters with this weapon.

However, since you said "hobby" and "concealed carry" and all that, 357 revolver is the best choice.

JLesSPE
06-05-2012, 06:25 AM
By the way, it should be said -- if you had said home defense was your primary purpose, there is nothing better than a pump action 12 gauge shotgun. You would win most encounters with this weapon.

However, since you said "hobby" and "concealed carry" and all that, 357 revolver is the best choice.

I've carried revolvers and semi-autos both. I've come to prefer the semi-autos. I like the round count and while I realize revolvers essentially can't jam I've never had an issue with my semi-autos. My Glock 34 has had over 10k rounds put through it by me personally and I bought it from a friend who put at least that many through it. Not 1 reliability issue. Obviously you don't carry a G34 due to its size, but that's the best reliability example I have. I currently carry a S&W SD40 and have only put like 1500 rounds through it but its the same story. Not one issue. I do clean them regularly and change springs from time to time. Just like everything else in life it comes down to preference. I use different carry guns depending on the weather and what I'm wearing...so I'm not 100% partial to anything in particular.

jhat01
06-05-2012, 06:45 AM
For everyday carry, I go with a compact stainless II by Kimber. It's a .45..to each their own, but I've always been partial to a big heavy round! And carrying in condition one doesn't make me squeamish like it may make others.

For plinking, even 9mm is getting expensive. My advice would be to get one of the .22 conversion kits for a 1911, or one of the bigger .22 autos that mimic their full size counterparts like the m&p or the mosquito by sig. I reload, so my cost is much much lower but I don't save money because I shoot at least twice as much! Haha

I like 12 gauge for home defense..I use the mossberg 500 special purpose. No matter what, it will go boom when you need it to. We also have a couple ARs around the house for defense.

If and when you do get one. Get some good instruction, and shoot as much as you possibly can..

rmsanger
06-05-2012, 06:52 AM
Would like a Xdm 45 when I save up the funds.

http://cdn.armslist.com/images/posts/634635745761456295ndcilof1.jpg

tnedator
06-05-2012, 06:56 AM
Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.

If it was Desert Storm, I'm assuming you were military (also from your avatar) vs. a civilian contractor and therefore you were using FMJ with the 9mm (thanks for your service to the country, by the way). If using quality, newly designed (last decade or so) self defense/police duty (really no difference) ammo, the actual results from any of the common duty pistol calibers is the same -- both in gel tests and OIS (officer involved shooting) reports.

There has been a great deal of science that has gone into ammo development in recent years, and in large part the difference in calibers is marginal. That's why a lot of departments/agencies around the country that had moved to .45s or .40s in the '90s and '00s, are now choosing to move back to 9mms, because the effectiveness is similar, the ammo is cheaper, their officers should better qualifying scores with the 9mm (which means they will shoot better when using them for real), and the gun failure rates are lower.

The best place on the net for one stop shopping to learn about the terminal ballistics of modern ammo: http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

tnedator
06-05-2012, 07:00 AM
I went to a shooting range on Sunday with a bunch of friends and had a great time. Over the day I fired several guns: a .22 bolt-action rifle, a semi-auto .22 pistol, .357 magnum revolver, .38 revolver, and a .30 cal M1 carbine of WW2 vintage. That last was a real treat cuz I've been a history buff since grade school. Unfortunately, I didn't have opportunity to try the .45 and 9mm pistols.

The rifles were fun, and I put down decent shot groups (esp considering it was my first time shooting since high school!), but I really liked the handguns more than the long guns. I'm thinking about picking up shooting as a hobby, but I really don't know where to begin. Just because it's the off-season, I thought I'd ask you guys what you have, what you like, and what you'd recommend for a beginner.

* I'm not likely to buy before next winter (Jan-Feb '13), so I have plenty of time for research.

* Shooting will primarily be a hobby, but defense is also at the back of my mind.

* My projected budget will be between $600 and $800 (not including other usefuls like a lockbox).

* I will be taking firearms safety classes, so that's a given.

* I'm left-handed and left-eyed, in case that makes a difference.

* Concealed carry permit is a definite "maybe." I haven't decided yet whether to seek it.

I'd love to hear your suggestions. Thanks in advance!

If you have to choose one gun, and it's going to be both range and concealed carry, then my suggestion would be a Glock 9mm (G17 or G19) or S&W M&P 9mm (full size or compact).

However, the best thing to do is to find a range in your area that rents guns and then try some. Some people love Glocks (probably the most popular gun overall civilian and law enforcement), while others find they don't shoot them accurately. Many that don't feel they shoot Glocks well, shoot the M&P well, which is the second most popular gun among police (based on a recent survey).

Regardless of what gun you choose, get the class(es) you talked about. Safe gun handling and storage (especially if you every have kids/teens/irresponsible people) in your house is THE most important thing. You don't want to live with the aftermath of an accidental shooting, not to mention the legal issues.

sisterhellfyre
06-05-2012, 07:18 AM
By the way, it should be said -- if you had said home defense was your primary purpose, there is nothing better than a pump action 12 gauge shotgun. You would win most encounters with this weapon.

Dutch, Jay3, and lonestar, thank you for the info! I didn't do a real good job on saying just what I want the guns for. Your answers are helping me split up the different needs of home defense, self-defense, target range, and zombie plinking. ;-)

I looked at shotguns last night, too. The one that caught my eye, thinking of home defense, was a Russian semi-auto 12-gauge, with clips for 5 or 12 shells (Saiga IZ-109). It looks like that could offer up a real "fear of God" moment.

I'm leaning toward going thru the process to get the concealed carry permit, based on what you guys said about the convenience for transport. Would it be fair to think of it like the motorcycle endorsement on my license? I can use it, but I don't necessarily have to use it every day.

For handguns, from what I saw yesterday, I think the 45 would be too big for me. I liked the 22 semi-auto pistol, and I was comfortable with the 357 magnum. I went through two drums with it, once with 38s and once with 357s, and I got a kick out of the "Old West" feel of thumbing the hammer back for each round. I didn't have to, I know, but it felt right. I'd like to get a feel for 9mm and 10mm before deciding between them.

I have a couple close friends who were in Desert Storm, too, and I'll be talking with them about it too. Both of them have concealed carry permits, and they know their stuff.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 07:21 AM
I've carried revolvers and semi-autos both. I've come to prefer the semi-autos.

I think both should be part of any collection, and should be the first two pistols purchased. But I think the revolver is the best one to start with, and the best one to start a friend or beginner with if you go together to the range. Less things to think about at first.

El Guapo
06-05-2012, 07:22 AM
If you're going to carry do not carry a .22, I would opt for a .357 or .40. Both are VERY similar in size the .40 just packing a bit of a larger round.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 07:24 AM
I looked at shotguns last night, too. The one that caught my eye, thinking of home defense, was a Russian semi-auto 12-gauge, with clips for 5 or 12 shells (Saiga IZ-109). It looks like that could offer up a real "fear of God" moment.


The semi-auto won't have the same "fear of God" moment you get with pumping the slide on a pump action.

Most people go with short, open choke pump action for home defense -- Winchester 1300 and Mossberg 500 are the two most common models.

glennst
06-05-2012, 07:44 AM
I'd like to get a feel for 9mm and 10mm before deciding between them.


To clarify, .40 and 10MM, while equal measurements, are 2 very different bullets. The 10MM is a magnum semi-auto round and is not that common. The .40 is more comparable with a 9MM and is probably what you are looking for.

.40 Glock
http://www.glock.com/english/glock22.htm
10MM Glock
http://www.glock.com/english/glock20.htm

rideco
06-05-2012, 07:49 AM
Do you self a favor and check out FN's. FNS is the "striker" model with no hammer and the FNX has a hammer. They are very good guns and are fully ambidextrous since you are left handed. FN makes machine guns for the military btw.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/group.asp?gid=FNG001

tnedator
06-05-2012, 07:50 AM
To clarify, .40 and 10MM, while equal measurements, are 2 very different bullets. The 10MM is a magnum semi-auto round and is not that common. The .40 is more comparable with a 9MM and is probably what you are looking for.

.40 Glock
http://www.glock.com/english/glock22.htm
10MM Glock
http://www.glock.com/english/glock20.htm

Correct, at this point 10mm is more of a novelty gun. If you are a gun enthusiast, having one can be fun, but a 10mm isn't a good first gun for someone, especially if you are looking for a concealed carry gun.

tnedator
06-05-2012, 07:51 AM
Do you self a favor and check out FN's. FNS is the "striker" model with no hammer and the FNX has a hammer. They are very good guns and are fully ambidextrous since you are left handed. FN makes machine guns for the military btw.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/group.asp?gid=FNG001

FN USA is also the primary (possibly only) maker of the M4, which is our current military battle carbine.

glennst
06-05-2012, 08:00 AM
When looking at poly-framed semiautos or "Airweight" revolvers, remember that a light gun is easy to carry, but harder to shoot. The reduced weight of the gun increases the felt recoil and makes followup shots less accurate.

If you are looking for a non-carry pistol, I would recommend a non-poly full size pistol like a Beretta 92FS, Sig P226, or a full size revolver. I prefer 9MM because of the reduced recoil, reduced muzzle flash, and higher ammo capacity, but there are arguments to be made for other rounds as well (i.e. .40, .357Sig, .45).

For carry, you should definitely try before you buy if you can. The S&W "Airweight" revolvers are particularly annoying to shoot.

HILife
06-05-2012, 08:00 AM
Here we go, and boy did you open a can of worms on this one without even knowing it!:~ohyah!: You need to narrow things down a bit. Do you want something to go to the range and shoot (ie. targets with)? Do you want a home defense weapon? Do you want to be able to carry/conceal? Honestly, those are such different requirements...you need to think about more than one piece. For home defense, shotgun. No question, no debate. Anyone who argues with this has no clue. 12 guage would be good, 10 is better. I use a Benelli Supernova Tactical :http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli-supernova-tactical.php with pistol grip. 18" barrel is easy to maneuver around in close quarters, but they are now making a 14" that would be even better. 3.5 inch shells in a deer slug will go through a fridge, or anything else the idiot hides behind. No where to run, no where to hide. Load it buck shot, deer slug, buck shot, deer slug all the way down, and get the magazine extension that will give you one in the pipe, seven in the mag. Buck shot sends them for cover, deer slug finishes the job. Home defense, done. Can be had for around 4 bills, and can change barrels to longer versions for skeet, birdhunting, rifled hunting, etc. Read a nice review here: http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/2635/benelli-supernova/. Shotguns are the bomb for home defense. Not only that, name me a sound that will make your insides turn to water faster than the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round if you are doing no good. Unmistakable. The Corps is using the Benelli M4 semiauto for urban fighting, and they love it. Good enough for me. My wife has a 1966 Ithica 16 gauge Featherlight (awesome trap gun) on her side of the bed that was my Mother's and we have an attack plan that will keep me from being hit by her line of fire. Woe be it to the poor bastard who chooses our place for a hit.

Wow, he takes his guns seriously.

PaintballCLE
06-05-2012, 08:29 AM
go with the 9mm or .40

9mm is way cheaper ammo, .40 is more powerful and becoming more common as most police forces are switching to this.

$600 Range Go with a Glock........ they aren't pretty........ but they work and rarely have jamming problems.

$800 Range Go with a Sig

$400 Range Go with a Ruger (basically a glock copy) I have them, never had a problem. And right now you can get a 9 mm (or .380) AND a .22 for $600

Stay away from kel-tec, and taurus

If you like going to the range a lot......... get a .22 to have (range only not for defense) as the ammo is CHEAP..........$15/550 Where 9mm will be about $12/50 and .40 $16/50

Dutch
06-05-2012, 08:29 AM
Wow, he takes his guns seriously.

Sure do....by the looks of the replies to the OP, I'm not alone. A great range of replies and advice in this thread that should get you where you want to be and into a weapon or 2 that will meet your needs. Didn't see a bad recommendation out there. I'd stay away from the semiauto shotguns simply because there really is no need for the added expense. You can get a good 12 gauge for under $400 (hell, your buddies might be able to help get you into one for half that). Then you can address the handgun. I'd put the bulk of the money there and go for quality.

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 08:34 AM
First off...from a TCO persective and protection and stopping power; you want a .40 cal. Anything less is not going to stop anything and you're just throwing lead at it. I have an M&P S&W .40 Cal and a Beretta Px4 Storm Sub. I also have a 1911 Kimber .45 Cust Covert. I would recommend trying and buying a .40 cal.

You also want to pay attention to double action and single action and or striker action. I also recommend a gun with a hammer. Which would elimate most glocks(or all), which i don't personally prefer.

El Guapo
06-05-2012, 09:05 AM
Agreed with the above. I mainly use Sigs which are double-action and single-action. It takes quite a bit of practice to nail a target consistently in the 5 ring using both modes, but once you can do that you'll be set. It's amazing the amount of jokers I see at the range thinking they're bad ass.

Smiling Assassin27
06-05-2012, 09:23 AM
I have many guns. I believe that the best handgun to start off the hobby with is a double action revolver, such as a Ruger GP100 or one of the large frame Smith and Wesson's. The best caliber to get is 357 magnum. The reasons are that, starting off, it's more rewarding to be about to point and shoot, and not have to think about racking the slide or fiddling with a safety, or removing a magazine, or making sure that there is not a round in the chamber after you have removed the magazine. A revolver is point and shoot -- you can practice getting really comfortable handling it, always pointing down range, never pointing it in an unsafe direction, etc.

I say this from experience -- get a full sized revolver as your first weapon, and a semi-automatic pistol as your second. You will always be able to use both anyway (a revolver makes a great weapon for the home to keep loaded in a hand safe, no magazine springs to wear out, and you don't have to decide whether to rack the slide in the dark if you ever hear something).

If you get a semi-automatic, I'd get a Sig Sauer. They are premium quality, and I like the rare de-cocking mechanism that Sig's have. You can chamber a round, de-cock, and then fire them with a double action (full trigger pull). Sig's can fire from un-cocked double action, and then each subsequent shot is single action. (Or you cock and the first shot is single action).

I'm not a fan of Glocks. Don't get that as your first.


.357 Sig, definitely.

Butterscotch Stallion
06-05-2012, 09:33 AM
Gun advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your handgun will be used to shoot someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your house.

Wow, now I have to buy a second one! Thanks.

Butterscotch Stallion
06-05-2012, 09:35 AM
I decided the gun you need within ten seconds.
It's the same gun I bought.

history buff? likes pistols?

1911. this is really a no-brainer.

El Guapo
06-05-2012, 09:35 AM
Car Advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your car will be used to run over someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your driveway.

Beantown Bronco
06-05-2012, 10:20 AM
Car Advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your car will be used to run over someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your driveway.

Bad analogy. A car is never purchased for the sole purpose of home protection.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 10:40 AM
Gun advice: Statistics show that it is far more likley your handgun will be used to shoot someone you know and love than any intruder that comes into your house.

Bad statistics. Your wording "and love" is misleading, because those numbers include intentional shootings of those who are acquainted or related. The vast majority of crimes in this country take place between people who "know" each other (and domestic crimes are a huge part of it). That statistic is often worded falsely to make it seem like it's referring to the accidental shooting of a kid or something.

And, when you include brandishment of the weapon in self-defense (not just shooting a perpetrator), it goes through the roof the other way.

You are much more likely to use a gun in defense of yourself than you are to accidentally shoot someone you know. (In other words, if you exclude intentional shootings and crimes, and include defensive uses of the gun other than actually putting a bullet in someone, it's a blowout in favor of gun ownership). And most importantly, these risks are something you have some control over -- you are a person, not a statistic. Your choices can affect your destiny.

Other handy tips for people -- whenever you hear a statistic about "children" and guns, they are including "children" up until the age of 18, and not pointing out that the numbers are hugely made up of gang-related criminal shootings of teenage boys. Also, they have been caught red-handed before counting "children" up to the age of 21.

http://i.imgur.com/xqZvC.jpg

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 10:47 AM
I decided the gun you need within ten seconds.
It's the same gun I bought.

history buff? likes pistols?

1911. this is really a no-brainer.

A 1911 .45 is too much gun for some people.

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 10:49 AM
.357 Sig, definitely.

this is specialized round and increases TCO.

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2012, 10:50 AM
Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.

I've got a Springfield Amory XDM .40S&W and I went with this for a few reasons. One is the safety features (there's several that are vary nice like have two safeties, one on the grip and one on the trigger so both have to be compressed before the gun will fire) then the ability to feel the firing pin when it's charged and also feeling a slight bulge in the chamber when a round is loaded in the chamber. Again, lot's of good safety features for a beginner. The pistol also comes with a case, 2 magazines, a speed loader, a lock and a holster, so you get alot for the money.

Then it's a 16+1 so lot's of magazine capacity. The other really, really nice thing about a .40 is that it feels like shooting a 9mm, that is, the kick is extremely reasonable while the punch of the bullet is much better than the 9mm.

The other thing about the .40S&W pistol, cheap and easily available ammo which you should be able to buy anywhere.

Anyhow, my $0.02 cents on the subject.

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2012, 10:53 AM
Would like a Xdm 45 when I save up the funds.

http://cdn.armslist.com/images/posts/634635745761456295ndcilof1.jpg

Yep, that's my pistol but in .40S&W, all black. But same basic package.

Dr. Broncenstein
06-05-2012, 10:59 AM
45 acp is my favorite. Easy to shoot, plenty powerful. I carry a glock 36 which is a subcompact 6+1 for self defense. That gun gets a little rowdy especially when shooting +p rounds, but I'm a big dude so it doesn't bother me. I'd really like to get my hands on a .460 or .500 mag revolver for the hell of it. Anyone ever shoot one of those?

DENVERDUI55
06-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Also way too soft on punch (I know this from experience, after shooting a F'er in the shoulder with a 9mm that he shrugged off like it was nothing. I started carrying my 44 Mag S&W, no more problems (Desert Storm I). I'd go with the Glock 10mm (40 cal, and what I'm using now), or a 45 semi (still hard to beat, but rounds cost more). If you hit 'em, you'd like to know they are out of the fight ( ie shoulder shot = no arm). You cannot be sure of that with a nine. The 10mm is a great compromise between the muzzel velocity of a 9mm, and the punch of a .45.

10 mm ammo is expensive and 45 is on the higher end with a lot more recoil that a novice shouldn't start with. It's not so much the caliber but the shot placement. Shoulder is not a vital and anyone would keep going shot with a handgun there. Get the 9mm good practice and cheap and later you can pick up a larger gun to carry.

HighCountryBronco
06-05-2012, 11:20 AM
Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.

Thank you, sir. Hit that nail right on the head. Great post.

tnedator
06-05-2012, 11:23 AM
A 1911 .45 is too much gun for some people.

Actually, because of the weight of 1911's, and the low velocity of the .45, in most cases the perceived recoil is lighter than .40s, and some would even argue 9mm, but I disagree. .40s tend to be snappier, with more muzzle flip. This is aided by the fact that in the majority of cases the .40 is in a much lighter gun than the .45 (I say most, because you can get a light Glock/M&P/Etc. in .45, but with the 1911, you are aided by the weight of the gun).

myMind
06-05-2012, 11:28 AM
Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.

I was just messin with ya'll.
Never meant it to seem that I don't appreciate military service.
Can't say that Ive ever been ruffled or puffy though. :)

El Guapo
06-05-2012, 11:37 AM
Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.

Agreed.

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

HighCountryBronco
06-05-2012, 11:38 AM
If it is a pistol you want and can only spend between 600 and 800, Ruger is really hard to beat. They finally came out with a 1911 style 45. If you want a great target pistol that would double as a home defender or conceal carry, for the price the fire power is hard to beat. They run around 800 i believe, but it is hard to argue against a shotgun as the best home defender. I personally like a Remington 870, relatively cheap and very reliable. I have an AR15 and an AK47, and if you want to go that route, spend a little more for a good AR, you will not be disapointed. You can do so much with that platform from furniture to different calibers, it is hard to not find something you will love. Research is your best friend when it comes to guns as their are so many options.

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2012, 11:46 AM
10 mm ammo is expensive and 45 is on the higher end with a lot more recoil that a novice shouldn't start with. It's not so much the caliber but the shot placement. Shoulder is not a vital and anyone would keep going shot with a handgun there. Get the 9mm good practice and cheap and later you can pick up a larger gun to carry.

My friend has a Kimber .45, real expensive, real nice. Kicks like a mule. I do not reccommend a .45 for a first time buyer or a woman.

I'm considering buying a Glock 10mm but the ammo baby, it's over the top expensive. However, the gun has stopping power, and it comes with a high capacity magazine so that's nice.

.40S&W is just a real nice option and ammo is reasonable. However, if someone does want to go with a 9mm then I'd get a semi-auto with a steel frame that can take the stronger rounds (+P & ++P). The thing about a 9mm is cheap ammo, accuracy is good, fun to shoot and can shoot all day long. I've got a friend who has a glock 9mm with a 30 round magazine. Good times!

Mountain Bronco
06-05-2012, 11:49 AM
Most folks do not just target shoot, have a brother that uses a 22 and a 17 for hunting varmints on his ranch.. he loads the 17 with a LR high power 22 shell that has the 17 as the slug.. he is hitting ground squirrels at in excess of 300 yard.
The crows follow him when he goes out in the hunting truck.



I'd love to know more about that load as even 250 yards is pushing it for the 17.

We have a redtail that follows us out many times. Very effective clean up though.

Bacchus
06-05-2012, 11:58 AM
Bad statistics. Your wording "and love" is misleading, because those numbers include intentional shootings of those who are acquainted or related. The vast majority of crimes in this country take place between people who "know" each other (and domestic crimes are a huge part of it). That statistic is often worded falsely to make it seem like it's referring to the accidental shooting of a kid or something.

And, when you include brandishment of the weapon in self-defense (not just shooting a perpetrator), it goes through the roof the other way.

You are much more likely to use a gun in defense of yourself than you are to accidentally shoot someone you know. (In other words, if you exclude intentional shootings and crimes, and include defensive uses of the gun other than actually putting a bullet in someone, it's a blowout in favor of gun ownership). And most importantly, these risks are something you have some control over -- you are a person, not a statistic. Your choices can affect your destiny.

Other handy tips for people -- whenever you hear a statistic about "children" and guns, they are including "children" up until the age of 18, and not pointing out that the numbers are hugely made up of gang-related criminal shootings of teenage boys. Also, they have been caught red-handed before counting "children" up to the age of 21.


You can narrow it down. The odds are much greater your gun in the house in much more likely to kill your spouse or your child than any intruder. It is not even close. I have two rifles and a pistol myself but none of them are for "Home Protection" They are locked away and unloaded.

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 12:04 PM
Actually, because of the weight of 1911's, and the low velocity of the .45, in most cases the perceived recoil is lighter than .40s, and some would even argue 9mm, but I disagree. .40s tend to be snappier, with more muzzle flip. This is aided by the fact that in the majority of cases the .40 is in a much lighter gun than the .45 (I say most, because you can get a light Glock/M&P/Etc. in .45, but with the 1911, you are aided by the weight of the gun).

Absolutely. It's a better shoot than a .40. that's why I have one. The problem with the .45 from home defense perspective is it will most likely go through drywall and hit someone in another room you didn't intend to hit. A .40 is less likely to do that. Also there is a saftey issue with the 1911 in that if you want to keep a round chambered you'll have to either keep it cocked with the thumb saftey or de-cock it by pulling the trigger with the thumb on the hammer. Which I don't think is a comfortable situation.

TotallyScrewed
06-05-2012, 12:12 PM
Col. Nathan R. Jessep: Walk softly and carry an armored tank division, I always say.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

Personally I think that a 3.5" 12 ga with 0 or 00 will stop anyone whether their on the other side of the door or inside. Just DO be sure of your target. The Benelli line has recoil reduction models.

The Glock is an excellent platform, easy to use and clean, simple and reliable. My Glock 21 is equipped with a flashlight/laser pointer, I highly recommend that option; see what you're shooting at and the flash strobe is very effective in blinding a human to give you time to locate and fire accurately. Thirteen rounds in a magazine and multiple magazines which are easy to load into the firearm. Hollow point rounds will expand greatly and provide an extreme shock to vital organs. The .45 ACP is a seriously loud round...any bad guys are going to know that this isn't a wimpy round coming their way.

I highly recommend that you become a skilled shooter and well aware of your weapon and your capabilities before you think about conceal carry.

rideco
06-05-2012, 12:13 PM
ok I will bite on the caliber war. I own:
glock 17 9mm
H&K USP compact .40
Sig p220 ST .45
Remington 870 12 gauge
an AK and a few others.


Since this is your first gun I would vote 9mm. Mostly because ammo is cheaper and you are going to want to practice as much as you can. Shot placement is the key no matter what major caliber in a handgun. That said when I carry I dont carry my 9mm and choose the .40 and .45. I have been shooting since I was a child and 100% confident I am going to hit what I am aiming at no matter which of my platforms I am carrying at the time.

The reason I recommended the FN's FNX (perfered) is because you are left handed, gun has a decocker, and they have a safety. Also its in your price range. As much as I love my Glock I cant recommend it to a new gun owner for the simple fact it does not have a safety. Same thing with my p220. I am not saying they are bad guns far from it, I am saying the features dont lend themselves to new gun owners. Feel free to flame me here but I dont care and stand by my opinions. Sig, Glock, S&W, H&K, FN, and Ruger make wonderful guns. As I read in another post stay away from Taurus and kel-tec.

The real question is: Is the main duty for this gun home defense or range gun. If you are serious about the HD thing skip handguns and go get a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 or 590. Done. If you want a range gun get a good solid 9mm shoot the piss out of it and enjoy.

tnedator
06-05-2012, 12:17 PM
Absolutely. It's a better shoot than a .40. that's why I have one. The problem with the .45 from home defense perspective is it will most likely go through drywall and hit someone in another room you didn't intend to hit. A .40 is less likely to do that. Also there is a saftey issue with the 1911 in that if you want to keep a round chambered you'll have to either keep it cocked with the thumb saftey or de-cock it by pulling the trigger with the thumb on the hammer. Which I don't think is a comfortable situation.

Using any quality, modern handgun ammunition, ALL of the duty calibers (9mm, .40, .45) will go through multiple layers of dry wall. There is little if any difference in the penetration of .45 vs. 9mm.

Ironically, while the anti-gun people demonize AR15's, the fact is that most 5.56/.223 bullets will penetrate FAR fewer walls than any handgun, which is actually why a lot of SWAT type agencies have gone to AR15's chambered in 9mm, because it will penetrate walls and still penetrate the bad guy.

Unfortunately, there is no good solution to penetration of walls in the house (or leaving the house) with handguns, short of hitting the bad guy you are defending yourself with.

tnedator
06-05-2012, 12:23 PM
ok I will bite on the caliber war. I own:
glock 17 9mm
H&K USP compact .40
Sig p220 ST .45
Remington 870 12 gauge
an AK and a few others.


Since this is your first gun I would vote 9mm. Mostly because ammo is cheaper and you are going to want to practice as much as you can. Shot placement is the key no matter what major caliber in a handgun. That said when I carry I dont carry my 9mm and choose the .40 and .45. I have been shooting since I was a child and 100% confident I am going to hit what I am aiming at no matter which of my platforms I am carrying at the time.

The reason I recommended the FN's FNX (perfered) is because you are left handed, gun has a decocker, and they have a safety. Also its in your price range. As much as I love my Glock I cant recommend it to a new gun owner for the simple fact it does not have a safety. Same thing with my p220. I am not saying they are bad guns far from it, I am saying the features dont lend themselves to new gun owners. Feel free to flame me here but I dont care and stand by my opinions. Sig, Glock, S&W, H&K, FN, and Ruger make wonderful guns. As I read in another post stay away from Taurus and kel-tec.

The real question is: Is the main duty for this gun home defense or range gun. If you are serious about the HD thing skip handguns and go get a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 or 590. Done. If you want a range gun get a good solid 9mm shoot the piss out of it and enjoy.

I'm mixed on the safety thing. I think in many ways people learning with a DAO is the best choice, because the must learn that you never put your finger on the trigger unless you want it to go bang. A number of people in here have recommended revolvers, which are double action and don't have safeties -- but, granted the trigger pull on revolvers is typically quite a bit higher than on Glocks.

A lot depends on how much you are going to practice and train for your eventual use of a gun in self defense. There have been far too many cases of people pulling on the trigger in vain, not knowing why the gun didn't go bang, and it was because with the adrenaline pumping in that critical moment, they didn't take the safety off. Because they didn't train enough, to have that safety come off after the gun cleared the holster and rotated forward. Using a gun with a safety, especially the 1911 platform, requires a lot more practice to ensure that when your life depends on it you will be able to defend yourself.

While I love shooting 1911's on the range, I have standardized on DAO's for self defense guns.

rideco
06-05-2012, 12:23 PM
oh and a couple other things. I would stay away from 1911's. They are awesome guns and was even thinking of getting the magnum research 1911 earlier this year just they are not "simple" guns. My simple I mean they are not the easiest of firearms to take down and clean. I would say a 1911 would not be the best starter firearm and they can tend to be pretty expensive as well. Plus .45 ammo is freaking expensive as well so a range trip for 100 rounds is going to cost you 40-45$ vs 20-25 for 9mm.

Guns are like potato chips you cant have just one.

rideco
06-05-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm mixed on the safety thing. I think in many ways people learning with a DAO is the best choice, because the must learn that you never put your finger on the trigger unless you want it to go bang. A number of people in here have recommended revolvers, which are double action and don't have safeties -- but, granted the trigger pull on revolvers is typically quite a bit higher than on Glocks.

A lot depends on how much you are going to practice and train for your eventual use of a gun in self defense. There have been far too many cases of people pulling on the trigger in vain, not knowing why the gun didn't go bang, and it was because with the adrenaline pumping in that critical moment, they didn't take the safety off. Because they didn't train enough, to have that safety come off after the gun cleared the holster and rotated forward. Using a gun with a safety, especially the 1911 platform, requires a lot more practice to ensure that when your life depends on it you will be able to defend yourself.

While I love shooting 1911's on the range, I have standardized on DAO's for self defense guns.


yep I hear you. All I know is I cc my H&K, OC my p220 and if someone breaks in my house I am grabbing the 870.

kamakazi_kal
06-05-2012, 12:27 PM
.357 ruger blackhawk ..... any occasion.

.45 llama subcompact 10rnds. good for concealment but a cheap gun. I needed slide and trigger work to have it not stove.

cutthemdown
06-05-2012, 12:54 PM
You can narrow it down. The odds are much greater your gun in the house in much more likely to kill your spouse or your child than any intruder. It is not even close. I have two rifles and a pistol myself but none of them are for "Home Protection" They are locked away and unloaded.

Do they really have that great of stats on that? Because using a gun can just be arming yourself to ward off an intruder, many times you don't have to shoot if intruder unarmed. I'm not sure there are more accidents then there are times a person uses a gun as a tool with success. It's just the accidents get all the press, or the killings etc. No one hears the story about how i heard someone in back yard, got shotgun, turned on light, dude saw shotgun and ran etc etc

tnedator
06-05-2012, 12:57 PM
yep I hear you. All I know is I cc my H&K, OC my p220 and if someone breaks in my house I am grabbing the 870.

No OC around here, but I CC a PM9 or M&P 40c (almost always the .40), but am seriously thinking about switching to an M&P 9c. The simple fact is that good 9mm ammo does as well as .40 in testing and OIS reports, and in the compact pistol the 9mm both has more rounds and if I am honest, I will shoot it better -- or more accurately, faster, in terms of getting back on target. On top of that, 9mm is quite a bit cheaper to practice with and the NUMBER one factor in self defense is speed and accuracy, which only comes from training (courses) and practice.

Essentially, the same logic that's resulting in a lot of the police departments that moved to .40s now in the process of moving back to 9mm's.

tnedator
06-05-2012, 01:00 PM
Do they really have that great of stats on that? Because using a gun can just be arming yourself to ward off an intruder, many times you don't have to shoot if intruder unarmed. I'm not sure there are more accidents then there are times a person uses a gun as a tool with success. It's just the accidents get all the press, or the killings etc. No one hears the story about how i heard someone in back yard, got shotgun, turned on light, dude saw shotgun and ran etc etc

No, I don't think his stats are accurate. Here are some counter stats, although I can't vouch for their accuracy, because I haven't checked out all the citations:

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2
* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3
* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4
* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5

There are more of the stats at: http://gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

The number of accidental gun deaths is less than 1,000 a year, in the 600 or so range.

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 01:12 PM
Using any quality, modern handgun ammunition, ALL of the duty calibers (9mm, .40, .45) will go through multiple layers of dry wall. There is little if any difference in the penetration of .45 vs. 9mm.

Ironically, while the anti-gun people demonize AR15's, the fact is that most 5.56/.223 bullets will penetrate FAR fewer walls than any handgun, which is actually why a lot of SWAT type agencies have gone to AR15's chambered in 9mm, because it will penetrate walls and still penetrate the bad guy.

Unfortunately, there is no good solution to penetration of walls in the house (or leaving the house) with handguns, short of hitting the bad guy you are defending yourself with.

That's why I said "more likely vs less likely"

I have a Sig516 Patrol and agree 100 percent. The AR-15 just looks like a scarier gun. LOL

tnedator
06-05-2012, 01:17 PM
That's why I said "more likely vs less likely"

I have a Sig516 Patrol and agree 100 percent. The AR-15 just looks like a scarier gun. LOL

Having said that, you use an AR15 to defend yourself in your home and you are probably much more likely to be prosecuted and have the prosecutor talk about how you used the military assault rifle which was overkill.

lonestar
06-05-2012, 01:24 PM
Nope, highly trained professionals and occasionally death dealers protecting you sensitive types from the ravages of the radicals who would do you harm. Enjoy that nap tonight under the blanket of security provided by guys and gals like us, weather you know it, like it, or acknowledge it or not...we know. When you get ruffled, and puffy, and all high on that intellectual/academic horse... it makes us laugh....hard......honestly, it really does.

You've put together a fine group of posts.. this one being the best..

But I'd call them bedwetters your just to kind and sensitive..

liked the comment about "name me a sound that will make your insides turn to water faster than the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round if you are doing no good. Unmistakable."

could have just said piss or crap your pants.. would have been more graphic.. and probably more accurate..

SOme real good advise I may look into some of your suggestions..

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Having said that, you use an AR15 to defend yourself in your home and you are probably much more likely to be prosecuted and have the prosecutor talk about how you used the military assault rifle which was overkill.

The home protection mag has ballistic tips staggered with regular rounds. thinking back...I should have gotten the Sig716. That way I could hunt slightly bigger game with it.

gyldenlove
06-05-2012, 01:33 PM
SIG P229 is an amazing pistol, extremely reliable, very low maintenance and extremely accurate. It was my favourite when I used to do pistol range shooting. I used the 9mm, but you can get it specced to .40 or 357 as well.

For old school badassery, the M1911 .45 is a nice piece with a very long track record.

I only own shotguns, a 12 gauge will take care of all your needs.

lonestar
06-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Dutch, Jay3, and lonestar, thank you for the info! I didn't do a real good job on saying just what I want the guns for. Your answers are helping me split up the different needs of home defense, self-defense, target range, and zombie plinking. ;-)

I looked at shotguns last night, too. The one that caught my eye, thinking of home defense, was a Russian semi-auto 12-gauge, with clips for 5 or 12 shells (Saiga IZ-109). It looks like that could offer up a real "fear of God" moment.

I'm leaning toward going thru the process to get the concealed carry permit, based on what you guys said about the convenience for transport. Would it be fair to think of it like the motorcycle endorsement on my license? I can use it, but I don't necessarily have to use it every day.

For handguns, from what I saw yesterday, I think the 45 would be too big for me. I liked the 22 semi-auto pistol, and I was comfortable with the 357 magnum. I went through two drums with it, once with 38s and once with 357s, and I got a kick out of the "Old West" feel of thumbing the hammer back for each round. I didn't have to, I know, but it felt right. I'd like to get a feel for 9mm and 10mm before deciding between them.

I have a couple close friends who were in Desert Storm, too, and I'll be talking with them about it too. Both of them have concealed carry permits, and they know their stuff.

Frankly once you get your CCL, you will carry about 90% of the time.

Depending on your state laws there are places you can not carry concealed.. but other than those places, you are going to carry once you get the feel and confidence of your weapon..

rideco
06-05-2012, 01:52 PM
SIG P229 is an amazing pistol, extremely reliable, very low maintenance and extremely accurate. It was my favourite when I used to do pistol range shooting. I used the 9mm, but you can get it specced to .40 or 357 as well.

For old school badassery, the M1911 .45 is a nice piece with a very long track record.

I only own shotguns, a 12 gauge will take care of all your needs.

yea man Sig's are awesome. I have the hots for a p226 stainless elite in .40 but prob. wont pick one up until next year. I mean what is not to love about this:
http://www.topgunsupply.com/images/D/IMGP1819.JPG

lonestar
06-05-2012, 01:59 PM
I'd love to know more about that load as even 250 yards is pushing it for the 17.

We have a redtail that follows us out many times. Very effective clean up though.

I'll try to get the info I know he has a scope on both his varmint rifles that cost more than his rifles do.. I shot it and the 22 last christmas and I was good from about 100 yards.. it is a 22 hi performance LR load that has the 17 as the round.. the 17 was more accurate and was easier to feel at home with..

Something he got for his wife for Christmas was the JUDGE 45-410, All I have to say is do not enter their house without permission..

Garcia Bronco
06-05-2012, 02:03 PM
Sig makes a nice hand gun(probably the best), but if you're going to get a 1911....get a Kimber. You'll pay...but you'll know where that extra money went.

Jay3
06-05-2012, 02:31 PM
You can narrow it down. The odds are much greater your gun in the house in much more likely to kill your spouse or your child than any intruder. It is not even close. I have two rifles and a pistol myself but none of them are for "Home Protection" They are locked away and unloaded.

That's not narrowed down more -- those numbers include intentional acts of violence between spouses.

And they are also skewed by only counting the killing of an invader. They do not include successful brandishment in all situations that a gun owner might encounter.

It's just a fact -- there are a tiny, tiny number of accidental killings with guns every year. And the vast majority of those involve complete stupidity in the handling or storage of the gun.

So that statement is misleading in that it's designed to make a person feel like they are opening a can of worms they don't control, and inviting a likely fate accidental killing.

Bacchus
06-05-2012, 08:39 PM
That's not narrowed down more -- those numbers include intentional acts of violence between spouses.

And they are also skewed by only counting the killing of an invader. They do not include successful brandishment in all situations that a gun owner might encounter.

It's just a fact -- there are a tiny, tiny number of accidental killings with guns every year. And the vast majority of those involve complete stupidity in the handling or storage of the gun.

So that statement is misleading in that it's designed to make a person feel like they are opening a can of worms they don't control, and inviting a likely fate accidental killing.

No, not at all. Most of the gun related deaths are not accidents. They are on purpose. Usually this is an in the moment rage reaction, usually drug or alcohol related. But if there would not have been a gun in the house a homicide would not have been commited.

I'm not saying people should not own guns, but I think everyone needs to look at their situation and their OWN temperment. AND If I had a little kid in the house I would not have a loaded gun oin their for protection. It is too easy for them to get to it. Hell, If I ould have a had a loaded gun in my house me or my wife would probably be dead now.^5

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2012, 08:46 PM
after I bought my .40S&W pistol I was showing it to a friend. I showed him the gun and he got this big silly grin on his face and made a very profound statement that pretty much sums it all up:

guns are cool.

lonestar
06-05-2012, 09:40 PM
No, not at all. Most of the gun related deaths are not accidents. They are on purpose. Usually this is an in the moment rage reaction, usually drug or alcohol related. But if there would not have been a gun in the house a homicide would not have been commited.

I'm not saying people should not own guns, but I think everyone needs to look at their situation and their OWN temperment. AND If I had a little kid in the house I would not have a loaded gun oin their for protection. It is too easy for them to get to it. Hell, If I ould have a had a loaded gun in my house me or my wife would probably be dead now.^5

SO IYHO they would not have used a kitchen knife, Rock, hammer, scissors or smothered them while they were asleep with paper..

Sorry but just because a firearm (notice I did not say gun, because any one with military training knows the difference between a gun and a firearm) was handy did ot make it a homicide..the indiviual would have found a way to make it happen..

†Lame ass argument if I every saw one.. Always has been always will be..

Dr. Broncenstein
06-05-2012, 09:47 PM
Murder is unpossible without guns.

lonestar
06-05-2012, 10:01 PM
Murder is unpossible without guns.

Never heard of someone getting murdered with a penis..

driver
06-06-2012, 04:05 AM
knuckle draggers

ah ? an evolved, soon to become extinct individual.

BowlenBall
06-06-2012, 04:43 AM
Never heard of someone getting murdered with a penis..

Clearly, you've never seen "A Clockwork Orange"

http://figmentcity.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/a-clockwork-orange-a-clockwork-orange-323599_720_4291.jpg

Fedaykin
06-06-2012, 04:59 AM
If you're interested in a revolver, a .357 magnum is a very versatile and proven choice. Can shoot several different rounds (true .357, .38 specials and IIRC a couple other less common) with everything from a high powered load to a varmint round. Lots of women I know (mother, sister, a couple girlfriends) are/have been fans of the .357 due to being a good size with decent power.

Also, revolvers are a lot simpler and more reliable -- at least for folks who are only occasional users. Pistols and semi/auto rifles (even most of the really expensive ones) require diligent care to remain reliable whereas a half decent revolver just needs very basic attention. There's a reason cops/marines/etc. have a TV trope of always being shown cleaning and oiling their pistols.

You can either get an "old fashioned" double/single action (i.e. one with a hammer that you can cock manually or not) or some newer designs that have no (external) hammer and are double action only. Taurus (and others probably) make a whole lineup of revolvers like that. The benefit of the Taurus types is more simplicity and quicker action.

There's also small and large frame options. Typically the small frame options are better for people with smaller hands but only have a 5 round capacity while the large frame models have a 6 round capacity. You can also get models with swappable barrels (I have a 2", a 4" and a 6" for mine) for different scenarios (something you can't do with anything but specialty pistols) though that's probably out of your stated price range.

If you're interested in a pistol instead, well you've got some research to do as the available styles are practically innumerable (actions, materials & construction, striker/hammer fired, safety mechanisms, center/rim fire, grip style, etc.). The best advice I have is to check around for a local range that will let you rent/try before you by and try out lots of different types before you buy.

2KBack
06-06-2012, 06:29 AM
If you're interested in a revolver, a .357 magnum is a very versatile and proven choice. Can shoot several different rounds (true .357, .38 specials and IIRC a couple other less common) with everything from a high powered load to a varmint round. Lots of women I know (mother, sister, a couple girlfriends) are/have been fans of the .357 due to being a good size with decent power.

Also, revolvers are a lot simpler and more reliable -- at least for folks who are only occasional users. Pistols and semi/auto rifles (even most of the really expensive ones) require diligent care to remain reliable whereas a half decent revolver just needs very basic attention. There's a reason cops/marines/etc. have a TV trope of always being shown cleaning and oiling their pistols.

You can either get an "old fashioned" double/single action (i.e. one with a hammer that you can cock manually or not) or some newer designs that have no (external) hammer and are double action only. Taurus (and others probably) make a whole lineup of revolvers like that. The benefit of the Taurus types is more simplicity and quicker action.

There's also small and large frame options. Typically the small frame options are better for people with smaller hands but only have a 5 round capacity while the large frame models have a 6 round capacity. You can also get models with swappable barrels (I have a 2", a 4" and a 6" for mine) for different scenarios (something you can't do with anything but specialty pistols) though that's probably out of your stated price range.

If you're interested in a pistol instead, well you've got some research to do as the available styles are practically innumerable (actions, materials & construction, striker/hammer fired, safety mechanisms, center/rim fire, grip style, etc.). The best advice I have is to check around for a local range that will let you rent/try before you by and try out lots of different types before you buy.

It might be a little silly since it is basically playing cowboy, but my Ruger Blackhawk single action .357 is probably my favorite gun. Just carefree shooting fun

Tombstone RJ
06-06-2012, 08:21 AM
Never heard of someone getting murdered with a penis..

even one infected with STDs?

JLesSPE
06-06-2012, 08:23 AM
It might be a little silly since it is basically playing cowboy, but my Ruger Blackhawk single action .357 is probably my favorite gun. Just carefree shooting fun

I have a late '60s Blackhawk I got from my grandpa (he had put 10 rounds through it in its lifetime). I absolutely love that pistol.

HILife
07-08-2013, 05:24 PM
Already got a Glock .40 s&w and thinking about getting a 12 gauge pump shotgun to go along with it. You know, home defense and all, but not sure yet. Looking around the Mossberg 590A1 looks good, mainly for the increased capacity (8+1), and the ability to use a bayonet (assuming it's legal) (like the capacity more then the bayonet). Not really to excited about the price (think it's MSRP $786).

Anybody got any other suggestions on pump action 12 gauges?

cutthemdown
07-08-2013, 05:41 PM
Can't go wrong with a Remington 870 HILIFE. They come in everything from 18 inch to 28 inch barrels, finishes, and have a model that hold 8, not sure about 8 plus 1. Also not sure about a bayonet but that isn't even really needed.

Bronco Yoda
07-08-2013, 05:41 PM
AR 15 with the BMG 50 cal upper conversion. :)

ZONA
07-08-2013, 05:47 PM
It's good that you're thinking lessons and safety. If I ever got into owning I would go that route also. Now that I'm older I've learned some things the hard way.

Age 17 - got shot in the face with a BB gun. Damn thing hit me right between the eyes and went lodged just on the side of my nose. That was back in the day. I was a military kid so I went to the base in Colorado Springs and they actually tore it lose with a pair of pliers. I never knew it had lodged in there. After I got shot there was swelling and we all thought it just hit me and riccocheted off somewhere. A few weeks later I was playing around with a magnet and I could feel the pull when I put it close to my nose.

I've shot a 44 Redhawk before. MF'er that was one powerful gun. No headset, just off in the desert with 2 friends. We also shot a few shot guns one handed because we wanted to be like Rambo. I don't recommend that. It hurts your hand like a bitch. And then to make matters worse, friend got a flat, so we're hitch hiking back from the desert in Phoenix with shotguns in our pant legs to conceal them and revolvers in our pockets. We never got a ride. I'm actually glad we didn't. I can only imagine what could have happened if somebody stopped and saw those things. lol

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
07-08-2013, 05:53 PM
If you want to shoot a lot of shells get a ruger markIII .22 caliber

It all depends on what you want to do. Some guys have made good suggestions about a .357 because you can shoot .38 shells as well, but keep in mind that will be a single fire revolver.

The .22 semi is a blast because you can shoot a lot of shells and it has little to no recoil.

Another thing to consider is the price of shells. .22 shells are the cheapest shells you're
going to find. You can get a new markIII for about $600. They are also as accurate as just about any other handgun you will buy in the near vicinity of that price range.

It's a great gun to have, especially if you're going to use it for varmit hunting, target practice, or teaching kids.

Archer81
07-08-2013, 05:56 PM
Wanting a gun proves you are amoral and xenophobic.

Murica!

...

:Broncos:

errand
07-08-2013, 06:01 PM
damn right!

zombie apocalypse happens and I am busting domes open with an M16.


My M-14 will destroy a zombies face:thumbsup:

Archer81
07-08-2013, 06:03 PM
My M-14 will destroy a zombies face:thumbsup:


Machetes and knives. They dont need to be reloaded. Save the ammo for other people who try to raid your reserves.

:Broncos:

NUB
07-08-2013, 06:04 PM
If you're going to get a permit and be walking around with a pistol for self-defense, I'd suggest either a Glock or similarly hammerless revolver like your basic .38 or .40 S&W. One is incredibly well engineered and the other is very basic. Both of them are reliable. There's a lot of debate on the "stopping power" of rounds; that's something you'll probably have to decide for yourself.

HILife
07-08-2013, 06:06 PM
Can't go wrong with a Remington 870 HILIFE. They come in everything from 18 inch to 28 inch barrels, finishes, and have a model that hold 8, not sure about 8 plus 1. Also not sure about a bayonet but that isn't even really needed.

Not to crazy about the reloading elevator spring on the Remington. Feel like it just gets in the way. Other then that it's a good gun. If I go pistol grip, then I would defiantly take the Remington 870 over the Mossberg 500. Don't like safety placement for Mossberg 500, when using a pistol grip.

HILife
07-08-2013, 06:09 PM
Machetes and knives. They dont need to be reloaded. Save the ammo for other people who try to raid your reserves.

:Broncos:

Better yet, get a sword. Works pretty well for her.

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Walking-Dead-27-Danai-Gurira-412x600.jpg

Archer81
07-08-2013, 06:10 PM
Better yet, get a sword. Works pretty well for her.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8gQPpY2gvEU/UILjigTm-aI/AAAAAAAAAGc/AD-vDAkblSg/s640/Michonne-walking-dead-sword-1012-xlg.jpg


Hell yeah it does. Broadswords would be too heavy. You would need something light and manageable, especially if its a mini hoard in front of you.


:Broncos:

HILife
07-08-2013, 06:11 PM
Hell yeah it does. Broadswords would be too heavy. You would need something light and manageable, especially if its a mini hoard in front of you.


:Broncos:

lol, you quote me before I could change the pic.

lolcopter
07-08-2013, 06:11 PM
might be grabbing a pistol at some point in the near future, leaning towards a S&W M&P 9mm at the moment but i imagine i'll have to put in some shooting range time with a few models before making a final decision

leaning towards 9mm though, mostly for the cheaper ammo as this will mostly be for recreational purposes i imagine, but the stopping power should be sufficient for any defensive needs

edit: i'd also say a .357 revolver or something similar could be in the mix, i really need to go to the range to see what i prefer

errand
07-08-2013, 06:12 PM
I decided the gun you need within ten seconds.
It's the same gun I bought.

history buff? likes pistols?

1911. this is really a no-brainer.

This^

A reliable man-stopper since it's origin.....awesome weapon.

errand
07-08-2013, 06:25 PM
And of course if you're looking to purchase a gun for home defense, who can forget the wisdom of our very own VP -

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ia4csoQLvGY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

errand
07-08-2013, 06:31 PM
A 1911 .45 is too much gun for some people.

Yeah but it can stop almost anything....including a tank (just ask Capt. Miller) :thumbs:


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QnX_mQ9apu8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

HILife
07-08-2013, 07:07 PM
And of course if you're looking to purchase a gun for home defense, who can forget the wisdom of our very own VP -

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ia4csoQLvGY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Nice try.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/_6CBKUM9gk8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/s5KiLlPqBPQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

cutthemdown
07-08-2013, 07:10 PM
Not to crazy about the reloading elevator spring on the Remington. Feel like it just gets in the way. Other then that it's a good gun. If I go pistol grip, then I would defiantly take the Remington 870 over the Mossberg 500. Don't like safety placement for Mossberg 500, when using a pistol grip.

For the money though the Remington a pretty good deal and a reliable weapon.

cutthemdown
07-08-2013, 07:13 PM
And of course if you're looking to purchase a gun for home defense, who can forget the wisdom of our very own VP -

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ia4csoQLvGY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Awesome! Biden is an idiot!

ColoNavy
07-08-2013, 07:39 PM
I vote for a Ruger M77 in .308 caliber. There is plenty of ammo and fairly inexpensive. Not quite the distance of a 30.06 but still deadly at 500 yards. The magazine holds 10....better than most rifles. A very good used one can be found for about$800 on Gunbroker.

For small game and target shooting go with a Ruger Mini-14. Shoots .223/5.56 and fits your price range. Accuracy beyond 200 yards is suspect.

Fedaykin
07-08-2013, 08:34 PM
I vote for a Ruger M77 in .308 caliber. There is plenty of ammo and fairly inexpensive. Not quite the distance of a 30.06 but still deadly at 500 yards. The magazine holds 10....better than most rifles. A very good used one can be found for about$800 on Gunbroker.

For small game and target shooting go with a Ruger Mini-14. Shoots .223/5.56 and fits your price range. Accuracy beyond 200 yards is suspect.

Should be able to get a brand new M77 with a decent 40x3-9 ballistic dot scope for $800-850 at any decent retailer. I bought one chambered for 300WM recently for that at one of the more highly priced retailers in my town.

Has a very nice safety for hunting in brush with gloves on, heh

bowtown
07-08-2013, 08:44 PM
Machetes and knives. They dont need to be reloaded. Save the ammo for other people who try to raid your reserves.

:Broncos:

Guns are too loud. Will bring the living and the dead right to you. Your best bet is one of these:

http://www.moorecutlery.com/store/images/watermarked/detailed/11/BK589.jpg

R8R H8R
07-08-2013, 09:06 PM
Sister, according to your OP, you were going to buy a gun by Jan. '13. So, what did you get? Didn't read all 5 pages, so I don't know if you have answered it yet.

McDman
07-08-2013, 09:15 PM
Glocks are ugly but about the most durable pistol you can buy. I have a CZ75 BD, great gun made in the Czech Republic. Looks a lot like a Beretta.

ZONA
07-08-2013, 09:32 PM
Bullets? Who needs bullets?


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/shw4lLI45U0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

OBF1
07-08-2013, 10:13 PM
Was out shooting with my brother today.. His new AR15 was a treat to fire. Load in 15 shells, take a peek through the scope and hitting the gallon milk jug from 300 yards was quite easy to do. Hardly any recoil and no sore shoulder from it.

Now on the other hand, the shot guns caused all sorts of pain and bruises on my shoulder :) Damn green casing shells lol

The 53 caliber black powder was a blast to load and shoot.

DENVERDUI55
07-09-2013, 01:08 AM
Not quite the distance of a 30.06 but still deadly at 500 yards. The magazine holds 10....better than most rifles. .

What kind of M77 do you have that holds 10 rounds?

rmsanger
07-10-2013, 07:03 AM
an XDM 40

http://whichgun.com/img/firearms/pistols/springfield_armory/xdm-40_3.8_compact/2.jpg

Bacchus
07-10-2013, 03:30 PM
I went to a shooting range on Sunday with a bunch of friends and had a great time. Over the day I fired several guns: a .22 bolt-action rifle, a semi-auto .22 pistol, .357 magnum revolver, .38 revolver, and a .30 cal M1 carbine of WW2 vintage. That last was a real treat cuz I've been a history buff since grade school. Unfortunately, I didn't have opportunity to try the .45 and 9mm pistols.

The rifles were fun, and I put down decent shot groups (esp considering it was my first time shooting since high school!), but I really liked the handguns more than the long guns. I'm thinking about picking up shooting as a hobby, but I really don't know where to begin. Just because it's the off-season, I thought I'd ask you guys what you have, what you like, and what you'd recommend for a beginner.

* I'm not likely to buy before next winter (Jan-Feb '13), so I have plenty of time for research.

* Shooting will primarily be a hobby, but defense is also at the back of my mind.

* My projected budget will be between $600 and $800 (not including other usefuls like a lockbox).

* I will be taking firearms safety classes, so that's a given.

* I'm left-handed and left-eyed, in case that makes a difference.

* Concealed carry permit is a definite "maybe." I haven't decided yet whether to seek it.

I'd love to hear your suggestions. Thanks in advance!

If you and your wife drink, if you have little kids or a teenage boy or if you have anger issues my gun reccomendation would be do not buy a gun because the odds are a 100 times greater this gun will be used to kill someone you know as opposed to an intruder.

rugbythug
07-10-2013, 03:34 PM
If you and your wife drink, if you have little kids or a teenage boy or if you have anger issues my gun reccomendation would be do not buy a gun because the odds are a 100 times greater this gun will be used to kill someone you know as opposed to an intruder.

Wow thanks for that! This would also apply to rope hammers and bats. You can never be to careful!

lolcopter
07-10-2013, 03:42 PM
If you and your wife drink, if you have little kids or a teenage boy or if you have anger issues my gun reccomendation would be do not buy a gun because the odds are a 100 times greater this gun will be used to kill someone you know as opposed to an intruder.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Hernandez

Bacchus
07-10-2013, 03:49 PM
Wow thanks for that! This would also apply to rope hammers and bats. You can never be to careful!

That is true, but how many alcoholics own guns, how many people with little kids and teenage boys own guns? As far as I know the list of murders by bat is very few there were 32,000 people killed in 2012 by guns. People just need to be aware of the fact that a burgler coming into your house and harming you or your family is very rare and you need to be aware of what kind of environment you are bringing this gun into.

That is all I am saying. Look at your house and if it is a safe place to have a gun. I have always had guns in my house but they are not there for my protection of a burgler. They are up in the attic locked away.

Traveler
07-10-2013, 03:57 PM
Glock 19 9mm is all I require for me and my family. I have the exact same weapon and setup like the one below.

Former military and not a gun enthusiast like some here. Having said that, if I need to use it, that person's not ever getting up.

TDmvp
07-10-2013, 04:17 PM
I had never fired a pistol the first 38 years of my life , and decided it's better to have one and never need one , than need one and not have it. I'd never bought or owned a gun before and I researched the sh*t outa this.

And I had much the same needs you did sisterhellfyre I wanted a great practice gun that could also be protection if i needed it.

I went with from what I read maybe the best 22 auto ever made and a great target pistol used in many ccw classes to teach everyone from pros to first timers and is used in pro target contest. Also remember if you plan on going to the range to practice a lot the best thing is something that shoots the cheapest ammo , hence me going 22lr ...


Ruger Mark III 22/45 ...

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/2973/20120326163222.jpg

Jay3
07-10-2013, 04:43 PM
I have a variant of that Ruger 22 -- great gun for practice, shooting at the range, sport target shooting. I endorse that buy.

But it will not do the job for self defense. Not recommended. Get .357 magnum revolver. A good model would be a Ruger GP100 in 4" barrel.

TDmvp
07-10-2013, 04:57 PM
I have a variant of that Ruger 22 -- great gun for practice, shooting at the range, sport target shooting. I endorse that buy.

But it will not do the job for self defense. Not recommended. Get .357 magnum revolver. A good model would be a Ruger GP100 in 4" barrel.

:thumbs:

TY Jay , and for defense yea I agree it doesn't have the stopping power a 45 has or something like that , but with hollow tips and the fact if someone walked in on me at home from my chair to the door you would hit them like 8 outa 10 times , and I plan on emptying the the thing on someone if I ever need to heheh.

But yea there's better defense guns , but getting shot with anything sucks I'd think heheh ... As far as to learn with tho I don't think I could have bought anything better.

Thx for endorsement Jay , not being a gun guy I was lost when I first starting wanting one.

lolcopter
07-10-2013, 04:59 PM
lol they make hallow tip .22s?

TheMoreYouKnow.gif

NUB
07-10-2013, 08:48 PM
I'd rather have a shotgun for home defense. The pump alone is loud enough for anyone to hear at night. And you're not going to miss if the need to fire arises.

TDmvp
07-10-2013, 08:55 PM
I'd rather have a shotgun for home defense. The pump alone is loud enough for anyone to hear at night. And you're not going to miss if the need to fire arises.

/agree .... Why I bought the 22 to learn handguns with and I got a little 410 and a 12g that I would use for defense if needed.

My Dad bought the Taurus Judge and it's sweet but a little big for me , I was looking into maybe getting the Circuit Judge which is basically the long gun/rifle version.

I think it would be cool to be able to shoot 45s and 410s out of the same gun.

pricejj
07-10-2013, 09:30 PM
lol they make hallow tip .22s?

TheMoreYouKnow.gif

You ain't from the country is ya?

pricejj
07-10-2013, 09:34 PM
That is true, but how many alcoholics own guns,

How many alcoholics own cars? Oh wait...

Ban cars, and ban alcohol while you're at it.

Lestat
07-10-2013, 10:00 PM
I myself have been thinking about getting a gun.
I have a buddy who loves guns and i swear he buys them just to take them to the range and shoot them more than for defense.

He took me with him to the range a few days ago and let me shoot a couple of his.
I wasn't really paying attention to the brand but he had a .22, .357, 9M and a .40.
It had been years since i fired a gun(last time was with my dad when he was teaching me how to shoot about 12 years ago).

My dad has a 9M and a .45, i prefer the .45 myself.
I was doing some research online,via mags and in stores(or shops) about certain brands and types.
I've settled on a 9M or .45 but i'm not sure which brand to get.
Of the ones i've looked at i like the Walther, Sig Sauer and S&W brands the best.
Which one would be better, Walther PPQ M2, P99, Sig Sauer P250, P229 or Smith & Wesson M&P 45?

I looked at FNH and Glock as well. I like the FNH FNX 45 & Glock G30S. though less so than the others.

TDmvp
07-10-2013, 10:05 PM
This is a great site Lestat , http://www.gunblast.com/ ...

Gun makers send him guns to review and he seems to know his crap...
Maybe check his site on reviews of the .45's you like. (in the search bar on his site)

Anyone who looks like this guy has to know his guns heheheh
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ySxdhBtKCnc/hqdefault.jpg

Bacchus
07-10-2013, 10:15 PM
How many alcoholics own cars? Oh wait...

Ban cars, and ban alcohol while you're at it.

Whatever dude, I am not saying guns should be banned I am just saying if you have a drinking problem, if you have serious fights with your wife or if you have a teenage son YOU might want to think about NOT buying a gun. Since the odds are far greater that gun will bring violence on someone you know and love.

It's called personal choice.

Thousands of people learn this every year the hard way. Just like the mother in Connecticut when her son took one of her guns and killed her and then went to the school and killed some more.

Lestat
07-10-2013, 10:32 PM
This is a great site Lestat , http://www.gunblast.com/ ...

Gun makers send him guns to review and he seems to know his crap...
Maybe check his site on reviews of the .45's you like. (in the search bar on his site)

Anyone who looks like this guy has to know his guns heheheh
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ySxdhBtKCnc/hqdefault.jpg

hmm... i get the distinct feeling i would get shot by just looking at him. :rofl:

2KBack
07-11-2013, 04:48 AM
an XDM 40

http://whichgun.com/img/firearms/pistols/springfield_armory/xdm-40_3.8_compact/2.jpg

I have an all black 4.5" model of this gun. Great gun, and great safety features. It's near as unlikely to fire accidentally as a modern single action.

BroncoBuff
07-11-2013, 05:18 AM
Tauras tracker I believe.

Didn't Tommy Lee Jones call that gun a "nickel-plated sissy pistol" in U.S. Marshals?

Here's some expert advice ...


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0SQpPGzdfsc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BroncoBuff
07-11-2013, 05:20 AM
Most of the world prefers the AK47

I know nothing about guns ... except that California's carry laws are the most restrictive, and Washington's the least so. Outside the deep South anyway.

But I think you're right about the AK47 baja, this guy sounds hella sure ...


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/dk6Utpg5JcM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Jay3
07-11-2013, 05:26 AM
I myself have been thinking about getting a gun.
I have a buddy who loves guns and i swear he buys them just to take them to the range and shoot them more than for defense.

He took me with him to the range a few days ago and let me shoot a couple of his.
I wasn't really paying attention to the brand but he had a .22, .357, 9M and a .40.
It had been years since i fired a gun(last time was with my dad when he was teaching me how to shoot about 12 years ago).

My dad has a 9M and a .45, i prefer the .45 myself.
I was doing some research online,via mags and in stores(or shops) about certain brands and types.
I've settled on a 9M or .45 but i'm not sure which brand to get.
Of the ones i've looked at i like the Walther, Sig Sauer and S&W brands the best.
Which one would be better, Walther PPQ M2, P99, Sig Sauer P250, P229 or Smith & Wesson M&P 45?

I looked at FNH and Glock as well. I like the FNH FNX 45 & Glock G30S. though less so than the others.

In a .45 I'd get the Sig. The decocker on the Sig is the bomb. Chamber a round, decock, and then the firing pin is down. First trigger pull will be double action, subsequent pulls single action. That's what I like about it.

55CrushEm
07-11-2013, 05:50 AM
That is true, but how many alcoholics own guns, how many people with little kids and teenage boys own guns? As far as I know the list of murders by bat is very few there were 32,000 people killed in 2012 by guns. People just need to be aware of the fact that a burgler coming into your house and harming you or your family is very rare and you need to be aware of what kind of environment you are bringing this gun into.

That is all I am saying. Look at your house and if it is a safe place to have a gun. I have always had guns in my house but they are not there for my protection of a burgler. They are up in the attic locked away.

Wrong. More people get hurt falling down the stairs each year, than do by accidental gun discharge. Perhaps we should mandate baby gates for EVERYONE, not just toddlers.

And I know many people who have young kids and own guns.....myself included. They all are locked in safes.

JLesSPE
07-11-2013, 05:51 AM
If you and your wife drink, if you have little kids or a teenage boy or if you have anger issues my gun reccomendation would be do not buy a gun because the odds are a 100 times greater this gun will be used to kill someone you know as opposed to an intruder.

That is true, but how many alcoholics own guns, how many people with little kids and teenage boys own guns? As far as I know the list of murders by bat is very few there were 32,000 people killed in 2012 by guns. People just need to be aware of the fact that a burgler coming into your house and harming you or your family is very rare and you need to be aware of what kind of environment you are bringing this gun into.

That is all I am saying. Look at your house and if it is a safe place to have a gun. I have always had guns in my house but they are not there for my protection of a burgler. They are up in the attic locked away.

First of all, in one post you say "If you and your wife drink" and then support that with "how many alcoholics own guns..." in the next one. People that drink are not necessarily alcoholics. That was a blind leap to strengthen your point.

Secondly, "As far as I know the list of murders by bat is very few there were 32,000 people killed in 2012 by guns." is incredibly sloppy debate. You can't post a number for one statistic and an assumption for the other. You may be right, but certainly didn't prove it there.

You also say "if you have little kids or a teenage boy or if you have anger issues my gun reccomendation would be do not buy a gun..." While the anger issues point is valid the fact that one has little kids or a teenage boy is irrelevant. Responsible people SHOULD(opinion) have a gun if they have children (regardless or age or sex). More importantly they at least should not be disallowed from owning a gun. If you find yourself important enough to protect I would think you would find your children important enough to protect.


Oh and just for fun: "...because the odds are a 100 times greater this gun will be used to kill someone you know as opposed to an intruder." 78% of all statistics are made up.

If someone legitimately and honestly asks for advice from people they're inherently assuming that people who are knowledgeable on the subject will contribute valuable opinions. Don't be irresponsible and mindlessly throw things out there to suit your agenda.

55CrushEm
07-11-2013, 05:59 AM
When my wife and I were arguing about whether or not I was going to get a gun, she said, "I just couldn't live with myself if anyone in our family got hurt because we had a gun in the house." I replied with, "I couldn't live with myself if anyone in our family got hurt because we DIDN'T have a gun in the house."

This letter sums up my feelings.....


I Donít Love Guns. I Just LOVE What My Gun ProtectsÖ
Written by by Tim Schmidt on October 1, 2011.

I guess that headline isnít 100 percent true, because I really do love guns. The point Iím trying to make here is that many people forget that the firearm is only a tool. Itís simply a means to an end. I carry a gun because itís one of the most effective tools that Iím aware of for self-defense.

I carry a gun because Iíve made the personal decision that the person who is 100 percent responsible for the safety of my loved ones is named Tim Schmidt. I carry a gun because I donít think Iíd be able to live with myself if I was ever in a situation where I couldnít protect my wife and kids. I carry a gun because it is one of the many personal protection layers that Iíve created for myself. I carry a gun because while I expect and hope for good and perfect outcomes, I understand that evil will always exist in our world. I carry a gun because my daughter and my wife each believe that no matter what happens, her daddy and her husband will always be able to protect her. I carry a gun because I want to teach my kids that it will someday be their responsibility to protect their loved ones. I carry a gun because I LOVE life. I carry a gun because I am a responsibly armed citizen.

Tim Schmidt, President and CEO, USCCA
Tim Schmidt
Founder, US Concealed Carry, Inc.
Publisher, Concealed Carry Magazine

Bacchus
07-11-2013, 10:01 PM
Wrong. More people get hurt falling down the stairs each year, than do by accidental gun discharge. Perhaps we should mandate baby gates for EVERYONE, not just toddlers.

And I know many people who have young kids and own guns.....myself included. They all are locked in safes.

What the **** are you stupid or just cannot read?

I never said anything about mandating ANYTHING!! Retard.

The advice is so simple and so uncontroversial that its amazing you republitards are even making this big of a deal about it.

ALL I SAID is people need to look at their home and see if it is safe for a gun. The odds are if you bring a gun into the home that gun is much more likley to kill you or a loved one than an intruder.

That is all I said. You can not even argue this because it is fact.

Jesus you people are stupid.

Also, I was more concerned with sisterhellfyre (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=2794) because he said he wanted it for home protection. That means at night the gun is probably going to be loaded and within his reach, which is obviously more dangerous.

Obviously if you have them in a safe like you or in the attic like me they are out of reach of children.

Jay3
07-12-2013, 04:55 AM
That is all I said. You can not even argue this because it is fact.

But it is not a fact. It is a flawed statistical fallacy.

JLesSPE
07-12-2013, 05:56 AM
What the **** are you stupid or just cannot read?

I never said anything about mandating ANYTHING!! Retard.

The advice is so simple and so uncontroversial that its amazing you republitards are even making this big of a deal about it.

ALL I SAID is people need to look at their home and see if it is safe for a gun. The odds are if you bring a gun into the home that gun is much more likley to kill you or a loved one than an intruder.

That is all I said. You can not even argue this because it is fact.

Jesus you people are stupid.

Also, I was more concerned with sisterhellfyre (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=2794) because he said he wanted it for home protection. That means at night the gun is probably going to be loaded and within his reach, which is obviously more dangerous.

Obviously if you have them in a safe like you or in the attic like me they are out of reach of children.

What it boils down to is anything dangerous in this world be it cars, guns, alcohol, tobacco, going to Oakland, knives, finances...and endless other things, need to be handled responsibly. I probably jumped the gun so to speak calling you out. I do get tired of people treating guns so much differently than anything else that can hurt people. You can drink a bit, have kids, and have guns. Just be safe and responsible with them and there won't be any issue.

First thing I tell anyone thinking about buying a gun: Buy a safe first. Safety, above all else, is the chief concern with firearms. That and after you buy 1 you end up buying a few. You need to protect your investments!

55CrushEm
07-12-2013, 06:14 AM
What the **** are you stupid or just cannot read?

I never said anything about mandating ANYTHING!! Retard.

The advice is so simple and so uncontroversial that its amazing you republitards are even making this big of a deal about it.

ALL I SAID is people need to look at their home and see if it is safe for a gun. The odds are if you bring a gun into the home that gun is much more likley to kill you or a loved one than an intruder.

That is all I said. You can not even argue this because it is fact.

Jesus you people are stupid.

Also, I was more concerned with sisterhellfyre (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=2794) because he said he wanted it for home protection. That means at night the gun is probably going to be loaded and within his reach, which is obviously more dangerous.

Obviously if you have them in a safe like you or in the attic like me they are out of reach of children.

Of course Republitards are stupid. Afterall, they disagree with all-knowing geniuses like you.

You WERE, in fact, suggesting that people with young kids or teenagers should not have guns in the house. You suggested that THOSE households would be inappropriate to have guns in. You were implying that it was irresponsible to have a gun if you have young kids.

Hogwash. That's all the MORE reason I want a gun in the house. I have more to PROTECT.

Like cars, knives, bats.......be responsible with them, and teach your kids not to play with them (or tell your kids you'll cut their hands off if you ever catch them playing with them)......and for God's sake, buy a $5 trigger lock.

Get off your ****ing high horse dude and stop preaching morality.

lolcopter
07-12-2013, 06:33 AM
this thread really doesn't need to devolve into a gun debate. if you don't like guns, stay out of the gun thread.

Garcia Bronco
07-12-2013, 07:23 AM
Its statistical probability based on the number of guns in circulation that your gun will never shoot or kill anyone. The reality is gun deaths in this country is a small number compared to the population.

Have a good day and happy friday!

Bacchus
07-12-2013, 07:40 AM
Of course Republitards are stupid. Afterall, they disagree with all-knowing geniuses like you.

You WERE, in fact, suggesting that people with young kids or teenagers should not have guns in the house. You suggested that THOSE households would be inappropriate to have guns in. You were implying that it was irresponsible to have a gun if you have young kids.

Hogwash. That's all the MORE reason I want a gun in the house. I have more to PROTECT.

Like cars, knives, bats.......be responsible with them, and teach your kids not to play with them (or tell your kids you'll cut their hands off if you ever catch them playing with them)......and for God's sake, buy a $5 trigger lock.

Get off your ****ing high horse dude and stop preaching morality.

That is a valid argument, but people like you and others started talking about baseball bats, cars and falling down!! LOL

Again my statement on little kids is he stated he wanted a gun for home protection. Which means that he will have it loaded and close to him while he sleeps. Again, he can do whatever the **** he wants. But if you are buying a gun and are going to keep it loaded and within easy reach at night it will also be within easy reach of your kids.

People just might want to give extra thought about it because that gun is more likely going to be used to kill someone he knows than a burglar, that is a fact and it is always something people need to think of first.

He is asking for advice that is all it is advice. He can do whatever he wants.

Bacchus
07-12-2013, 07:42 AM
this thread really doesn't need to devolve into a gun debate. if you don't like guns, stay out of the gun thread.

I am not debating ANYTHING!! I am just saying people need to look at their situation at home before purchasing a gun.... that's it. I'm sure everyone would agree....

Powderaddict
07-12-2013, 07:59 AM
I don't use a gun for home protection, but lately I've been spending a little more time out in the backwoods. I'm more nervous about wild animals (Bear and Mountain Lion are common around here). I do some motorcycle camping, and was thinking of getting something I can pack with me. My wife and one of her friends have taken up bow hunting, so I would want something she could wear on her hip when she is out in the forest.

My thought is a 1911 .45. They are common, fairly inexpensive, and I'm pretty sure they can do their part in defending me against a big black bear. What do you think?

I do own a Ruger 10/22 for small game and target practice. My wife has a .308 she uses for Elk hunting. So I'm not unfamiliar with guns, I just have fairly limited exposure to handguns.

Edited: Neither my wife nor I have anger issues, drinking/drug problems, histories of violent behavior, or extremely poor decision making skills. We have a child but none of our guns are kept loaded, and are kept safely out of his ability to access them. Ammo is kept in a separate part of the home than the firearms. No animals were harmed by our firearms that were not also eaten. I like puppies. And pie.

Tombstone RJ
07-12-2013, 08:05 AM
I don't use a gun for home protection, but lately I've been spending a little more time out in the backwoods. I'm more nervous about wild animals (Bear and Mountain Lion are common around here). I do some motorcycle camping, and was thinking of getting something I can pack with me. My wife and one of her friends have taken up bow hunting, so I would want something she could wear on her hip when she is out in the forest.

My thought is a 1911 .45. They are common, fairly inexpensive, and I'm pretty sure they can do their part in defending me against a big black bear. What do you think?

I do own a Ruger 10/22 for small game and target practice. My wife has a .308 she uses for Elk hunting. So I'm not unfamiliar with guns, I just have fairly limited exposure to handguns.

Edited: Neither my wife nor I have anger issues, drinking/drug problems, histories of violent behavior, or extremely poor decision making skills. We have a child but none of our guns are kept loaded, and are kept safely out of his ability to access them. Ammo is kept in a separate part of the home than the firearms. No animals were harmed by our firearms that were not also eaten. I like puppies. And pie.

I wouldn't worry about a black bear in the back country anyway. If you have a brown bear issue then yah, carry a gun but it's got to be a hand cannon otherwise all you will do is piss the bear off more if you shoot it with a .45. As for a mountail lion, I don't think you will have time to point and shoot anyway. But I'd get at the very least, a .357 revolver for a big cat.

Or, do the wise thing and take bear spray. Problem solved.

Powderaddict
07-12-2013, 08:16 AM
I wouldn't worry about a black bear in the back country anyway. If you have a brown bear issue then yah, carry a gun but it's got to be a hand cannon otherwise all you will do is piss the bear off more if you shoot it with a .45. As for a mountail lion, I don't think you will have time to point and shoot anyway. But I'd get at the very least, a .357 revolver for a big cat.

Or, do the wise thing and take bear spray. Problem solved.

I've known several people out here that have been charged by black bear, especially around fall when they are preparing to hibernate.

I get what you are saying about mountain lions. I don't know too many people that have run ins with them, but they are fairly common around here. I figure something is better than nothing.

So if a .45 will just piss a bear off, what do you recommend? I do have bear spray, but I'd like to have another option as well.

Tombstone RJ
07-12-2013, 08:17 AM
I've known several people out here that have been charged by black bear, especially around fall when they are preparing to hibernate.

I get what you are saying about mountain lions. I don't know too many people that have run ins with them, but they are fairly common around here. I figure something is better than nothing.

So if a .45 will just piss a bear off, what do you recommend?

Bear spray is absolutely your best bet. It will work on a big cat too if you have time to use it.

Powderaddict
07-12-2013, 08:18 AM
Bear spray is absolutely your best bet. It will work on a big cat too if you have time to use it.

Well, I'll keep some with me on my travels :)

edited: Funny story about bear spray. I had a friend who had a canister go off in his tent one night. I wasn't there but heard about it. I guess it wasn't too pleasant :rofl:

Rohirrim
07-12-2013, 08:20 AM
This was my favorite weapon when I was in the army:

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/6/66/MCM79gl-2.jpg/600px-MCM79gl-2.jpg

The M79 grenade launcher. And I was pretty damn good with that thing. Good enough that the platoon sergeant assigned it to me. ;D

Talk about some home protection? Wish I could have one of those now. Poof! Your ass is mine! :rofl:

Tombstone RJ
07-12-2013, 08:26 AM
Well, I'll keep some with me on my travels :)

edited: Funny story about bear spray. I had a friend who had a canister go off in his tent one night. I wasn't there but heard about it. I guess it wasn't too pleasant :rofl:

Just make sure it's fresh. Bear spay has a shelf life and you need to replace it after a while. There should be an expiration date on it. It's basically a super-powerful pepper spray. Its the same basic idea as the pepper spray used on humans but about 100 times more powerful. It comes in a pretty decent size can too:

http://www.bearicuda.com/rd/images/documents/bear-spray-collage.jpg

http://www.sabrered.com/images/bear-spray-2.jpg

Also, I'd have no problem spraying this stuff on a home intruder. It will send a human being into the stratosphere of pain and agony.

Kaylore
07-12-2013, 08:28 AM
I don't think I would be comfortable with a firearm in my home. I'm very pro second amendment, but guns aren't my personal cup of tea.

Tombstone RJ
07-12-2013, 08:32 AM
Here's a pic of someone using bear spray.

http://news.byu.edu/releases/archive08/Mar/bearspray/bear_smith83.jpg

Bacchus
07-12-2013, 08:41 AM
This was my favorite weapon when I was in the army:

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/6/66/MCM79gl-2.jpg/600px-MCM79gl-2.jpg

The M79 grenade launcher. And I was pretty damn good with that thing. Good enough that the platoon sergeant assigned it to me. ;D

Talk about some home protection? Wish I could have one of those now. Poof! Your ass is mine! :rofl:

Rohirrim, have you seen these?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Y2Wn7CK8P08/TWmA04fSBzI/AAAAAAAAFsE/GCxo2B-Yb1k/s200/ATK_XM25_25mm_Auto_Grenade_Launcher_PEO_Soldier_3_ small.jpg

The XM25 Individual Airburst Weapon is a new grenade launcher being developed by Heckler & Koch and Alliant Technologies.

Explosions In Mid-Air

The XM25 weapon fires 25 millimeter grenades that are designed to explode in mid-air or close to an intended target. As such, the XM25 is known as an "airburst grenade launcher." The weapon uses lasers to calculate the distance to a target, and operators of the XM25 can adjust the detonating distance of grenades by up to three meters. The ability of the grenades to explode in mid-air will enable the XM25 to hit targets that are dug into the ground or hiding behind cover.

The U.S. military has announced plans to purchase more than 12,000 XM25 Individual Airburst Weapons. Each grenade launcher costs approximately $25,000. The XM25 began field tests with soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2009. The U.S. military expects the weapon to enter service and be fully deployed in 2012.

I bet you would have loved to fire one of these.

Jay3
07-12-2013, 09:37 AM
So if a .45 will just piss a bear off, what do you recommend? I do have bear spray, but I'd like to have another option as well.

A slight bump and go for the 44 Magnum revolver. Easy to operate for you and your loved ones. I also have a Model 94 carbine that shoots 44 magnum, so that's a small, handy rifle shooting the same rounds. Makes for a good 1-2 punch on the trail.

But really, you will hear (correctly) that a 44 Magnum is also not enough wallop for brown bear. A head shot will kill it, but a body shot most likely won't drop it.

The weapons of choice to shoot a bear are the 454 Casull (forget about it), the Desert Eagle in 50 cal (again, too advanced and specialized), or get a 12 gauge and shoot sabot slugs out of it (a big chunk of metal instead of scatter shot).

So I'd get a 44 magnum pistol (six inch barrel, either a S&W 629 like Dirty Harry's, or a Ruger Redhawk). It's the best you can do and you could also shoot a person with it if attacked.

55CrushEm
07-12-2013, 10:46 AM
I don't think I would be comfortable with a firearm in my home. I'm very pro second amendment, but guns aren't my personal cup of tea.

I used to think EXACTLY like this. I've always been pro 2nd amendment.....just never interested in owning a gun. After all these years I finally bought my first gun (guns) only in the last 3 months.

The first few nights, I was nervous about having them in the house......but then it quickly goes away. You really get used to it, and don't even think about it.

Even my wife said she now feels better knowing it's there. It does provide some sense of security and you do wind up feeling safer.

cutthemdown
07-12-2013, 10:52 AM
hell yes a gun in the home is needed! Don't be a wimpy fool and be unable to protect your family when they time arises. Hopefully it never does but being without a protection tool like a gun is unsafe. Being scared of a tool is silly.

cutthemdown
07-12-2013, 10:53 AM
I was told by a park ranger in alasaka that bear spray is more effective then any handgun you could carry when attacked by a bear.

55CrushEm
07-12-2013, 11:52 AM
I was told by a park ranger in alasaka that bear spray is more effective then any handgun you could carry when attacked by a bear.

Of course. That's because if you shoot a polar bear or a Kodiak bear with a 9mm......it won't do **** other than piss it off.

Unless you get it right in the eye.

Pony Boy
07-12-2013, 12:05 PM
Bear spray is absolutely your best bet. It will work on a big cat too if you have time to use it.

32553

Jay3
07-12-2013, 12:06 PM
hell yes a gun in the home is needed! Don't be a wimpy fool and be unable to protect your family when they time arises. Hopefully it never does but being without a protection tool like a gun is unsafe. Being scared of a tool is silly.

The difference maker for me is family, little ones who depend on me. When there are other, helpless people in the house, being brave no longer consists of just not fearing what will happen. Because the standard for success is changed -- I don't just have to survive, or get away, or live through something. I have to prevail. I have to be able to reverse the situation, and overcome an assailant. Failure means my helpless family hurt. And with that in mind, I need any tool I can use to change the equation in my favor.

Jay3
07-12-2013, 12:07 PM
I just need to get something off my chest: I shot a hobo to get some practice.

55CrushEm
07-12-2013, 12:33 PM
32553

LOL

driver
07-12-2013, 01:59 PM
to the op; bear in mind that the average pistol shooter can't hit the broad side of a barn . Even if they're standing inside it. If you go with a pistol get lots of practice, until aiming and firing is almost second nature.

If your primary need is home defense Tombstone has it right, go with a good 12 ga. pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, it makes it hard to miss. AND as someone else said The sound of a big gun being racked, might discourage any intruder enough that they run right through the wall to get away!:~ohyah!:

Kaylore
07-12-2013, 02:16 PM
to the op; bear in mind that the average pistol shooter can't hit the broad side of a barn . Even if they're standing inside it. If you go with a pistol get lots of practice, until aiming and firing is almost second nature.

If your primary need is home defense Tombstone has it right, go with a good 12 ga. pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, it makes it hard to miss. AND as someone else said The sound of a big gun being racked, might discourage any intruder enough that they run right through the wall to get away!:~ohyah!:

I actually like this idea. My dad kept a double-barreled 18 gauge SG near his bed. He said it was too big for us kids to play with (until we were older) and if you needed more than two rounds you probably had bigger problems.

Rohirrim
07-12-2013, 02:16 PM
For a woman? I recommend the Walther PPK .380 Auto. Not heavy. Not big. Plus it has the James Bond cache. ;D

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KqF5o8avD38?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DENVERDUI55
07-12-2013, 05:08 PM
I actually like this idea. My dad kept a double-barreled 18 gauge SG near his bed. He said it was too big for us kids to play with (until we were older) and if you needed more than two rounds you probably had bigger problems.

18 gage? WTF must be a typo. 20 or 16 I'm sure you mean.

NUB
07-13-2013, 07:34 PM
18 gage? WTF must be a typo. 20 or 16 I'm sure you mean.

Could be an old shotgun or maybe a muzzleloader.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2013, 11:19 PM
That 18-gauge might be the old, old one barrel on top the other configuration (as opposed to side-by-side).

DarkHorse
07-14-2013, 07:49 AM
I went to a shooting range on Sunday with a bunch of friends and had a great time. Over the day I fired several guns: a .22 bolt-action rifle, a semi-auto .22 pistol, .357 magnum revolver, .38 revolver, and a .30 cal M1 carbine of WW2 vintage. That last was a real treat cuz I've been a history buff since grade school. Unfortunately, I didn't have opportunity to try the .45 and 9mm pistols.

The rifles were fun, and I put down decent shot groups (esp considering it was my first time shooting since high school!), but I really liked the handguns more than the long guns. [B]I'm thinking about picking up shooting as a hobby, but I really don't know where to begin. Just because it's the off-season, I thought I'd ask you guys what you have, what you like, and what you'd recommend for a beginner.

My wife and I are both CCW holders, we shoot twice a week at a range that a friend of ours owns. The hobby portion of it started out in bowling pin shoots but that slowly graduated into taking advanced tactics courses with the trainer for the local police department. The price for this 'hobby' really isn't that much when you consider the actual training that you receive. It's surprisingly fun learning how to clear jams, engage multiple targets, shooting off-hand, on the move in and out of cover, etc....We've started training recently with Chris Cerino http://chriscerinotraininggroup.com/Chris_Cerino_Training_Group/Home.html Chris is a great guy, he's local to us and his partner - Andrew Blubaugh is a police officer with a local dept near us. So if you're interested in the hobby portion of shooting you should really take a look into some sort of training that helps you in a defensive manner. IDPA shooting is also something you could try - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFDaVIbJ4AU

* I'm not likely to buy before next winter (Jan-Feb '13), so I have plenty of time for research.
Best 'research' you can do is to go to several gun ranges and handle different handguns. The handgun you want is the one that feels the most comfortable in your hand, not the most popular or the coolest looking. The gun needs to fit you - that being said make sure that you have an idea of proper grip. Rent as many of them as you can so that you can actually shoot them.

* Shooting will primarily be a hobby, but defense is also at the back of my mind.
See above. If you're talking about home defense - nothing beats a good old shotgun. Single shot, double barrel, pump, auto......get a shotgun for the house.

* My projected budget will be between $600 and $800 (not including other usefuls like a lockbox).
Plenty of great pistols out there in that price range.

* I will be taking firearms safety classes, so that's a given.
See above. Don't be one of those guys that just gets their permit and thinks they're ready to take on anything that happens. Take advanced courses, preferably with local police. Do you know how to perform an administrative reload? Are you comfortable clearing different kinds of weapon malfunctions? Each malfunction is cleared a different way...you need to learn them. If you're in a situation where you need to pull your weapon or die and your gun malfunctions you either have a $700 hammer or you sit down and cry......best thing is to be able to get the gun back in the fight.

* I'm left-handed and left-eyed, in case that makes a difference.
Not a problem

* Concealed carry permit is a definite "maybe." I haven't decided yet whether to seek it.
Do it, doesn't mean you have to carry a gun although there's no reason to not be armed at all times.

I'd love to hear your suggestions. Thanks in advance!

My suggestions for ya - good luck!

DENVERDUI55
07-14-2013, 08:25 AM
That 18-gauge might be the old, old one barrel on top the other configuration (as opposed to side-by-side).

If it really is it would be a super old blackpowder shotgun.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-14-2013, 08:26 AM
I actually like this idea. My dad kept a double-barreled 18 gauge SG near his bed. He said it was too big for us kids to play with (until we were older) and if you needed more than two rounds you probably had bigger problems.

So your last name is Biden?

Pony Boy
07-14-2013, 08:56 AM
I carry a Ruger LCP 380, it fits in a wallet size holster and can be concealed easily in the back pocket.

DarkHorse
07-14-2013, 09:04 AM
I carry a Ruger LCP 380, it fits in a wallet size holster and can be concealed easily in the back pocket.

Good gun


Depending on weather, my clothes, etc.... I carry a S&W Bodyguard .380 in a Sig Sauer wallet holster, or my Glock 19 in a Galco King Tuk holster (75% of the time carry) and on rare occasions i'll carry my Para Ordnance Expert 1911 in a Galco paddle holster (rarely)

My wife carries her Glock 19 always. Soon she's moving out of the 19 and into a G36 .45 acp with a Sig P238 for Summer carry.

Bronco Yoda
07-14-2013, 09:26 AM
I don't think I would be comfortable with a firearm in my home. I'm very pro second amendment, but guns aren't my personal cup of tea.

Just get a good gun safe and start out with a small caliber that you are comfortable with. A .22 is better than nothing. I'm currently looking at a safe that fits under the side of the bed that slides out like a drawer. Fit's a shotgun and hand gun with quick biometric lock.

SouthStndJunkie
07-14-2013, 09:41 AM
I love my Kahr PM 40 for CCW (pictured below).

I also have a Para Warthog .45 as my other option.

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL637/2498345/6660043/322979413.jpg

Pony Boy
07-14-2013, 10:01 AM
Good gun


Depending on weather, my clothes, etc.... I carry a S&W Bodyguard .380 in a Sig Sauer wallet holster, or my Glock 19 in a Galco King Tuk holster (75% of the time carry) and on rare occasions i'll carry my Para Ordnance Expert 1911 in a Galco paddle holster (rarely)

My wife carries her Glock 19 always. Soon she's moving out of the 19 and into a G36 .45 acp with a Sig P238 for Summer carry.

Excellent choices, I also have a Glock 19 9mm that I keep by the bed in a hollowed out book. I also have a SW Chief Special 5 round 38 special revolver with the nickel finish 2Ē barrel that I keep in the console of my truck.

Jay3
07-14-2013, 12:53 PM
Excellent choices, I also have a Glock 19 9mm that I keep by the bed in a hollowed out book. I also have a SW Chief Special 5 round 38 special revolver with the nickel finish 2Ē barrel that I keep in the console of my truck.

Eerie parallels -- I have an LPC for concealed carry, and a Ruger SP101 5 round 357 (very similar to the Chief in purpose) that I keep in the console in my car.

DenverDynamite
07-15-2013, 09:51 AM
Part of me would like to own a firearm for home pretection. However, I have two small boys at home, and no matter how many times I could explain it to them, that said gun was dangerous - in other words, don't touch the f****** gun! I still think they'd be too tempted. I remember how I was as a kid, and I don't trust them.

Arkie
07-15-2013, 11:04 AM
Part of me would like to own a firearm for home pretection. However, I have two small boys at home, and no matter how many times I could explain it to them, that said gun was dangerous - in other words, don't touch the ******* gun! I still think they'd be too tempted. I remember how I was as a kid, and I don't trust them.

Hide it in a safe. That's what everybody should do that have kids in the home.

Lestat
07-15-2013, 11:48 AM
Part of me would like to own a firearm for home pretection. However, I have two small boys at home, and no matter how many times I could explain it to them, that said gun was dangerous - in other words, don't touch the ******* gun! I still think they'd be too tempted. I remember how I was as a kid, and I don't trust them.

get a safe and make sure they never know the combo.
that's what my dad did. i'll admit i knew the code but i never fiddled with it, until he was teaching me how to shoot.

Jay3
07-15-2013, 12:08 PM
Part of me would like to own a firearm for home pretection. However, I have two small boys at home, and no matter how many times I could explain it to them, that said gun was dangerous - in other words, don't touch the ******* gun! I still think they'd be too tempted. I remember how I was as a kid, and I don't trust them.

You have to lock it up. THey have full sized safes, and quick-release single safes for one firearm that's kept at the ready. They also have trigger-locks, but they are not intended for a loaded weapon. The quick-release (push button combination) safes are intended for a weapon at the ready.

Kaylore
07-15-2013, 12:13 PM
18 gage? WTF must be a typo. 20 or 16 I'm sure you mean.

Nope. It's a 70 year old double barreled shot gun. The cost of the ammo alone is ridiculous but it was his German grandpa's gun, so he likes it.

rmsanger
07-15-2013, 12:20 PM
I thought gun ownership rights were revoked for Coloradoites?!? God knows you people have shot enough stuff over the years.

Kaylore
07-15-2013, 12:39 PM
Nope. It's a 70 year old double barreled shot gun. The cost of the ammo alone is ridiculous but it was his German grandpa's gun, so he likes it.

I just texted my dad and I got more details. The gun is over 100 years old. My great grandfather served in the German army before emigrating to the US in 1907 (talk about dodging two bad wars). It was his gun and is 18 gauge. Apparently it's worth a lot of money and they don't even make the cartridges anymore, but you could custom order it into the 60's. He's got seven shells left.

DENVERDUI55
07-15-2013, 01:57 PM
I just texted my dad and I got more details. The gun is over 100 years old. My great grandfather served in the German army before emigrating to the US in 1907 (talk about dodging two bad wars). It was his gun and is 18 gauge. Apparently it's worth a lot of money and they don't even make the cartridges anymore, but you could custom order it into the 60's. He's got seven shells left.

That is pretty sweet and I would keep that locked up in a safe. You could reload for the for it although it is old enough you would have to be careful.

Tombstone RJ
07-15-2013, 01:59 PM
I actually like this idea. My dad kept a double-barreled 18 gauge SG near his bed. He said it was too big for us kids to play with (until we were older) and if you needed more than two rounds you probably had bigger problems.

You could sell this classic to Sum Ting Wong as he can appreciate it's uniqueness.

Kaylore
07-15-2013, 02:23 PM
That is pretty sweet and I would keep that locked up in a safe. You could reload for the for it although it is old enough you would have to be careful.

Yeah he cleared up some misconceptions I had from my youth, so apologies for my mis-remembering and giving bad information. First, it wasn't his "defense" gun despite him talking about using it on potential burglars. He had a pump action .22 for that. And it isn't double barreled. It's a single barrel, but it is breech loaded, which I do remember him showing me at one time. He said he still oils it now and again, but hasn't fired it since he was a teenager. And he it's been in storage since 2000 as it was a gift from my grandfather and before that he kept it locked up which is probably why I only remember seeing it a few times and handling twice.

Rabb
09-12-2013, 11:40 AM
Just stumbled on this thread, yay. I am just finishing up my first AR build and intend on it being a range/hog hunting/home defense gun. Really have enjoyed the process of gathering parts and putting it together.

Tombstone RJ
09-12-2013, 11:41 AM
zombie slayer indeed...

Rabb
09-12-2013, 11:44 AM
I'd probably be the first to die if the apocalypse hit. But hey, whoever ransacks my house will be pleased. ATV, guns, beer.

Wow, the more I type this out, I realize I am a ****ing hick. No wonder my neighbors don't talk to me much (Highlands Ranch).

Tombstone RJ
09-12-2013, 11:48 AM
I'd probably be the first to die if the apocalypse hit. But hey, whoever ransacks my house will be pleased. ATV, guns, beer.

Wow, the more I type this out, I realize I am a ****ing hick. No wonder my neighbors don't talk to me much (Highlands Ranch).

when the **** hits the fan, I'll need your address please.

Tombstone RJ
09-12-2013, 11:51 AM
it's the boots that make her so darn accurate:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/I1kjFjAzUw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dr. Broncenstein
09-12-2013, 05:30 PM
Just stumbled on this thread, yay. I am just finishing up my first AR build and intend on it being a range/hog hunting/home defense gun. Really have enjoyed the process of gathering parts and putting it together.

5.56 or 300 blackout?

El Guapo
09-13-2013, 08:34 PM
Hopefully a bigger round, maybe .308? You're not hunting hog w/ 5.56.

Bacchus
09-13-2013, 09:28 PM
it's the boots that make her so darn accurate:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/I1kjFjAzUw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

N
I
C
E

Rabb
08-08-2014, 09:46 AM
5.56 or 300 blackout?

I don't know how I missed this sorry Doc. 5.56, I have since built a second (also 5.56) for the woman and we have had a good time at the range.

Working on one for the old man as a surprise, he likes to hunt hogs in Florida. 5.56 as well, I considered .308 but I am finding that it's cheaper for that to buy a whole rifle versus building.

I can post pics if anyone cares. They aren't fancy but it's awesome shooting something I built myself.

Rabb
08-08-2014, 09:48 AM
Hopefully a bigger round, maybe .308? You're not hunting hog w/ 5.56.

You'd be surprised with the way ammo is anymore, a decent .223/5.56 will easily kill a hog. You can kill deer with them. Of course this is all range dependent, you probably aren't going all Ted Nugent from a chopper with it...but it will do the trick within 75 yards I bet.

Bronco Yoda
08-09-2014, 12:51 PM
Load the pics up Rabb.