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Tombstone RJ
05-07-2012, 09:22 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40484/179/2012-offensive-line-rankings?pg=2


21. Denver Broncos

LT: Ryan Clady*
LG: Zane Beadles*
C: J.D. Walton*
RG: Chris Kuper*
RT: Orlando Franklin*

Top reserves: OT Ryan Harris, OT Tony Hills, OG Manuel Ramirez, C/G Philip Blake, OT Adam Grant.

Overview: This group's continuity is impressive considering its youth. The average age of Denver's front five will be 26 when the season starts, with Kuper (29) as the elder statesman. Concerns include Kuper's multiple offseason surgeries for a broken left fibula, Walton's inability to hold the point of attack, and a systemic overhaul. Whereas the foundation of last year's success was running the ball, Denver will become a pass-first club with Peyton Manning at the controls. Manning has a long, documented history of single-handedly improving his own pass protection, but this unit may be one of the obstacles he'll be forced to overcome in order to regain past form.

22. Miami Dolphins

Heyneck
05-07-2012, 09:45 PM
but but but i thought we had a top 5 unit because Madden (the person... not the game) said so...

DBroncos4life
05-07-2012, 09:50 PM
but but but i thought we had a top 5 unit because Madden (the person... not the game) said so...

Yeah Madden has **** on Evan Silva...UhhUhh

Mogulseeker
05-07-2012, 10:01 PM
Phil Simms said that we have the best offensive line in the NFL.

Jay3
05-07-2012, 10:01 PM
They will get mauled this year when the only way to stop the team is to get to Manning.

Tombstone RJ
05-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Yah, funny how the oline helped a terrible QB win. I mean, that's what Hodge said. It was the oline that helped TT. The fantastic oline. The great, young oline.

what gives?

Tim
05-07-2012, 10:26 PM
kind of funny how jeff saturday and marshall newhouse automatically make the packers the best line in the game... Hilarious!

broncs2bowl
05-07-2012, 10:58 PM
the steelers being 11 completely throws that article to waste

Bronco Rob
05-07-2012, 11:15 PM
They will get mauled this year when the only way to stop the team is to get to Manning.


Tom Brady was sacked 21 times in 2007
Matt Ca$$el behind the same line was sacked 47 times in 2008


The Colts gave up 16 sacks in 2010 as as compared to 35 in 2011. Ryan Clady went 20 straight games without giving up a sack when he had a quarterback who actually would get rid of the ball.


Manning is one of the hardest quarterbacks to sack in NFL history.



:thumbs:

Drek
05-08-2012, 04:38 AM
Ryan Clady went 20 straight games without giving up a sack when he had a quarterback who actually would get rid of the ball.


I think you mean when he had any lateral mobility.

The QBs Clady has blocked for are a small part of why his play has dropped so much the last couple of seasons. He clearly isn't 100% from his knee injury. What we should be hoping for is that now with his first full OTAs, camp, etc. post injury he can work himself back to where he was at.

If so this whole line instantly gets MUCH better, knowing the LT is a rock.

I'd expect Franklin, Beadles, and Walton to all take big steps forward in their first real full off-seasons with Magazu. I'm not expecting world beaters instantly but we should see far fewer mental mistakes and sloppy technique.

Jay3
05-08-2012, 04:42 AM
Tom Brady was sacked 21 times in 2007
Matt Ca$$el behind the same line was sacked 47 times in 2008


The Colts gave up 16 sacks in 2010 as as compared to 35 in 2011. Ryan Clady went 20 straight games without giving up a sack when he had a quarterback who actually would get rid of the ball.


Manning is one of the hardest quarterbacks to sack in NFL history.



:thumbs:

Just because he gets rid of the ball doesn't mean it's a first down. He still needs protection. He still needs a good O-line. I said "they will get mauled."

You believe differently, fine. There ain't but one way to beat Peyton and that's to get inside pressure to hurry him up.

Teams will throw the works at them to get to Peyton -- and it really shows what an O-line's true talent is with that kind of pressure on them.

They're not very good. Beadles and Walton will be non-starters in a short while, and Franklin has not demonstrated he's there yet.

cutthemdown
05-08-2012, 05:24 AM
To bad we didn't get Decastro or a starting interior olineman in FA. Hopefully Blake can start, Harris makes a comeback at RT, and Franklin moves inside. Not sure all that is even a possibility but it would be nice.

Manning gets rid of the ball too fast to get to him much outside. Teams like to come up the gut on him. We need to get better inside.

You all watch DT and the dline will be fine, its the oline we need to worry about. Kupers leg got the twig treatment late in the yr. There is no sure thing when it comes to recovering from broken legs in time for the opener.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 07:10 AM
The Colts gave up 16 sacks in 2010 as as compared to 35 in 2011.

Yup, this is the stat people need to be focusing on.

cmhargrove
05-08-2012, 07:19 AM
Just because he gets rid of the ball doesn't mean it's a first down. He still needs protection. He still needs a good O-line. I said "they will get mauled."

You believe differently, fine. There ain't but one way to beat Peyton and that's to get inside pressure to hurry him up.

Teams will throw the works at them to get to Peyton -- and it really shows what an O-line's true talent is with that kind of pressure on them.

They're not very good. Beadles and Walton will be non-starters in a short while, and Franklin has not demonstrated he's there yet.

Also remember that Peyton hasn't ever played on a team with the option of playing a power run game. That is a significant wrinkle, and you have to believe that it was a selling point for the Fox / McCoy regime.

Willis McGahgee ain't no scat back and he won't be sitting on the sidelines. This will start as a different offense (than solely the Colts no huddle), but we will probably go more that direction as the season rolls on.

Manning generally kills teams that blitz him. Short, quick decisions might be the strongest part of his game, and I certainly think our line can hold for 3-4 second per play each down. This is going to be better than you think (if we stay healthy).

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 07:21 AM
Tom Brady was sacked 21 times in 2007
Matt Ca$$el behind the same line was sacked 47 times in 2008


The Colts gave up 16 sacks in 2010 as as compared to 35 in 2011. Ryan Clady went 20 straight games without giving up a sack when he had a quarterback who actually would get rid of the ball.


Manning is one of the hardest quarterbacks to sack in NFL history.



:thumbs:

You just don't get it. Whether or not he gets sacked, if Manning is not getting good protection his job is made much harder, and he's more likely to throw incompletions and interceptions. If we want to win a Super Bowl with the guy, we need to give him much better protection than what this line has shown over the last couple of seasons. Period.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 07:23 AM
Also remember that Peyton hasn't ever played on a team with the option of playing a power run game. That is a significant wrinkle, and you have to believe that it was a selling point for the Fox / McCoy regime.

Willis McGahgee ain't no scat back and he won't be sitting on the sidelines. This will start as a different offense (than solely the Colts no huddle), but we will probably go more that direction as the season rolls on.

Manning generally kills teams that blitz him. Short, quick decisions might be the strongest part of his game, and I certainly think our line can hold for 3-4 second per play each down. This is going to be better than you think (if we stay healthy).

Go back and look at our "power running game" before we had Tebow as the starter. It was far from impressive. Mainly because our interior blocking is a joke overall.

CEH
05-08-2012, 07:25 AM
What is the author's credentials? Buffalo at #13

Jay3
05-08-2012, 08:02 AM
Manning generally kills teams that blitz him. Short, quick decisions might be the strongest part of his game, and I certainly think our line can hold for 3-4 second per play each down. This is going to be better than you think (if we stay healthy).

The real test is whether you can get pressure without a junk or odd blitz. It really comes down to breaking down the individual matchups. To beat Peyton, you need to be able to get constant, good pressure from regular sets.

Preferably up the inside. Hello, Walton and Beadles.

The Patriots game last year was an eye-opener. This O-line is not good.

Garcia Bronco
05-08-2012, 08:17 AM
meaningless when you consider that Tebow held on to the ball super long.

BroncoBeavis
05-08-2012, 08:20 AM
meaningless when you consider that Tebow held on to the ball super long.

Which is of course why they were 9th worst in the league for sacks allowed in 2010.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 08:41 AM
Love the optimism in some of you... but in reality our Oline is not made for pass protection. Harris can't be depended on, Beadles and Walton suck, Kupes is coming back from injury and Clady has been a total disappointment since he cut his dreads. Franklin will get a ton better... but with Peyton... I am worried about him in pass protection.

And to the ones still blaming Tebow for holding the ball too much... so? Yes he held to the pig skin way too much... but in doing so... how many plays did he manage to extend. He was barely adequate a reading coverages... but he always tried to make most of every play. Prefer seeing that any day than seeing QBs get phantom sacked or succumb to the pass rush that's a mile away. People blaming Tebow for our Olines problem need to get their head out of their ass because in reality what made our line look "great" last year was Tebow.

Anyway... I know Peyton will get rid of the ball quickly... but he is bound to get hit if our Oline doesn't improve leap and bound during the offseason. We can't let that happen. Plus Peyton hasn't played in more than 1 year... there has to be some rust on him. I really think our TE will help more in the block phase than in the pass during the early part of the season just to see if the pass protection is holding up.

canadianbroncosfan
05-08-2012, 08:54 AM
Phil Simms said that we have the best offensive line in the NFL.

I'm so sorry Phil has contracted alzheimer's, they really need to do more studies on the impact all these hard hits have on former players.

fontaine
05-08-2012, 09:00 AM
1. TEs won't help in pass protection too much because the majority of our pass pro problems are from the interior combination of Walton/Beadles combining to be one of the worst pairs in the league in pressures/sacks allowed.

2. Tebow held onto the ball too long in two/three of his first starts. By the Raiders game he was consistently getting rid of the ball in under 2.5/3 seconds (yes I went back to each play and timed it). When he DID hold onto the ball it wasn't out of choice but when the OL (Beadles/Walton or Franklin) gave up immediate pressure which forced Tebow to improvise and buy time in the pocket. The Minnesota game was a great example of how in the first half their front 7 completely dismantled our OL (when the OL wasn't committing penalties and mistakes themselves). That changed in the 2nd half when they probably got chewed out by the coaches and Tebow had one of his best passing days as a result.

3. Walton/Beadles probably improve given the extra experience and full offseason but there's a world of difference (and a world of hurt) between improved from near worst (which they are) to just bad instead of improving to average which is what's required from them. That's a huge ask and it's like saying Chris Harris improves to a number 1 CB this offseason.

I'm glad Blake is on board because at worst he's probably much better than Beadles/Walton.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 09:31 AM
1. TEs won't help in pass protection too much because the majority of our pass pro problems are from the interior combination of Walton/Beadles combining to be one of the worst pairs in the league in pressures/sacks allowed.


Franklin was a turnstile against pretty much every speed rusher he faced last season. He may massively improve in that area in his sophomore year, but right now I see him as a huge liability in terms of pass protection. And Clady really hasn't been that great of late either to be honest. The truth is we have pass protection issues all over the line.

Hulamau
05-08-2012, 10:01 AM
Franklin was a turnstile against pretty much every speed rusher he faced last season. He may massively improve in that area in his sophomore year, but right now I see him as a huge liability in terms of pass protection. And Clady really hasn't been that great of late either to be honest. The truth is we have pass protection issues all over the line.

Franklin had to start in his rookie year with NO offseason program at all ... look for HUGE improvements this year in his overall game and Pass pro in particular.

Bronco Rob
05-08-2012, 10:02 AM
Peyton Manning has always been considered to be the toughest quarterback to consistently get to. He thinks fast, is immaculately prepared and doesn't hold the ball. He usually finds the open receiver, but will also dump the ball quickly if he doesn't see what he wants. He controls the situation.


Why do think Manning chose the Broncos after having four procedures on his neck? Do you honestly think he'd choose a team with a bad offensive line?


Really?



???

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 10:04 AM
Peyton Manning has always been considered to be the toughest quarterback to consistently get to. He thinks fast, is immaculately prepared and doesn't hold the ball. He usually finds the open receiver, but will also dump the ball quickly if he doesn't see what he wants. He controls the situation.


Why do think Manning chose the Broncos after having four procedures on his neck? Do you honestly think he'd choose a team with a bad offensive line?


Really?



???

No need to speculate. He did choose a team with a bad o-line.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 10:07 AM
Franklin had to start in his rookie year with NO offseason program at all ... look for HUGE improvements this year in his overall game and Pass pro in particular.

Franklin lacks the lateral quickness needed in an OT, and I don't really see how that's going to change just because he's got some experience now. And by the way, Clady's best season was his rookie season, so simply assuming Franklin will drastically improve is kind of silly to be honest.

Bronco Rob
05-08-2012, 10:10 AM
No need to speculate. He did choose a team with a bad o-line.


Peyton takes twenty minutes to decide which flavor ice cream he orders. He practically had his pick of teams to go to. He has had four neck surgeries and you want me to believe he chose a team with one of the worse offensive lines in the league?




???

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
Peyton takes twenty minutes to decide which flavor ice cream he orders. He practically had his pick of teams to go to. He has had four neck surgeries and you want me to believe he chose a team with one of the worse O lines in the league?




???

He is a Tebow troll let it go.

Mogulseeker
05-08-2012, 10:14 AM
Tom Brady was sacked 21 times in 2007
Matt Ca$$el behind the same line was sacked 47 times in 2008


The Colts gave up 16 sacks in 2010 as as compared to 35 in 2011. Ryan Clady went 20 straight games without giving up a sack when he had a quarterback who actually would get rid of the ball.


Manning is one of the hardest quarterbacks to sack in NFL history.



:thumbs:

BroncoRob comes through with a solid, non-cut-and-paste post. Good job.

Regarding the content, this is a stat I promptly looked up right after we signed Peyton. Mostly because durability. Manning had neck surgery, but I'm told by many that he should actually be stronger than he was before the surgery. I'm more concerned about his age, 36.

Elway played through age 38 - so that would be three more years for Manning if he goes the way of Elway. The difference is, I forget the numbers, but they're up at Pro Football reference - Manning has been hit less than 1/3rd the amount of times Elway or Favre had been hit throughout their career.

Manning is going to make this line look a lot better. Especially Walton, I think. Walton to me seemed to get a good initial push, but couldn't sustain his blocks. Beadles just seemed lost with Tebow running around there... his job will be a lot more simple with Manning behind center.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 10:18 AM
Peyton takes twenty minutes to decide which flavor ice cream he orders. He practically had his pick of teams to go to. He has had four neck surgeries and you want me to believe he chose a team with one of the worse offensive lines in the league?




???

I'm sure many things went into his decision other than just the o-line. First and foremost none of those other teams are run by his childhood idol. I mean really, he chose arguably the least talented team overall of those who were pursuing him, so you make of that what you will.

Mogulseeker
05-08-2012, 10:19 AM
Just food for thought:

The Broncos ranked #1 in rushing offense.
The Broncos ranked #1 in is rushes for over 10 yards.
The Broncos were top ten in YPC.
The Broncos were top ten in fewest sacks allowed with Orton.
The Broncos were #12 (top half) in fewest sacks allowed with Tebow.

John Madden included the Broncos in his "Top Five Offensive Lines" at the conclusion of the season.

Phil Simms said the Broncos have the best young offensive line in the league... he said we're "Set for a decade with Clady/Beadles/Walton/Kuper/Franklin."

Maybe not the best. Maybe not even top ten, but certainly not 21st... or 30th... or whatever.

Bronco Rob
05-08-2012, 10:27 AM
I'm sure many things went into his decision other than just the o-line. First and foremost none of those other teams are run by his childhood idol. I mean really, he chose arguably the least talented team overall of those who were pursuing him, so you make of that what you will.


So Manning chose the worst possible team he could go to in the twilight of his hall of fame career. Make perfect sense to me!



:thumbs:

Mogulseeker
05-08-2012, 10:36 AM
The Broncos line is underrated because it is so young.

Bronco Rob
05-08-2012, 10:37 AM
January 05, 2012 John Madden's top 5 offensive lines

Throughout the regular season, Coach Madden has been closely tracking the top offensive lines in the NFL, and has narrowed the list to five (5) finalists:

1- New Orleans Saints (24 sacks allowed second fewest in the NFL, 5,347 pass yards best in the NFL).

2- New England Patriots (averaged 317.8 passing yards per game second best in the NFL).

3- Houston Texans (averaged 153 rushing yards per game second best in the NFL).

4- Denver Broncos (2,632 rushing yards best in the NFL).

5- Green Bay Packers (averaged 35 points per game best in the NFL).




http://www.nfl.com/voting/protectors/2011/YEAR/0

Kaylore
05-08-2012, 10:43 AM
Mobile QB's take a lot of sacks. Mobile QB's that can't read defenses take a lot more.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 10:44 AM
Peyton takes twenty minutes to decide which flavor ice cream he orders. He practically had his pick of teams to go to. He has had four neck surgeries and you want me to believe he chose a team with one of the worse offensive lines in the league?




???

Well the other suitors didn't have great Olines either. Tenn with the addition of Hutch became good... SF could be great. But MIA and ARI sucked balls.

And lets not forget that we gave Peyton a bigger contract than the one the Colts gave him. And this is after another surgery. So in reality Peyton chose us because 1) Money, 2) We would let him run the offense, and 3) The relationship with Fox and Elway.

I approve the Peyton as long as he is healthy... lets just not make it look that he chose us because we where the most talented team to chose from.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 10:48 AM
Mobile QB's take a lot of sacks. Mobile QB's that can't read defenses take a lot more.

I would be willing to bet on average Tebow holds the ball at least 5 seconds longer then Manning.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 10:48 AM
January 05, 2012 John Madden's top 5 offensive lines

Throughout the regular season, Coach Madden has been closely tracking the top offensive lines in the NFL, and has narrowed the list to five (5) finalists:

1- New Orleans Saints (24 sacks allowed second fewest in the NFL, 5,347 pass yards best in the NFL).

2- New England Patriots (averaged 317.8 passing yards per game second best in the NFL).

3- Houston Texans (averaged 153 rushing yards per game second best in the NFL).

4- Denver Broncos (2,632 rushing yards best in the NFL).

5- Green Bay Packers (averaged 35 points per game best in the NFL).




http://www.nfl.com/voting/protectors/2011/YEAR/0

Again... look how he labels our line. It's a running Oline. With Peyton we will transition to a passing one.

Look profootballweekly or other data places that can actually show you how our Oline fared in passing situations. It ranks among the last. And if we go into detail with the individuals... you will realize that Walton and Beadles sucked and that Clady and Franklin struggled.

Kaylore
05-08-2012, 10:49 AM
I would be willing to bet on average Tebow holds the ball at least 5 seconds longer then Manning.

And when Manning "gets rid of" the ball, he's usually throwing it to someone open - even if it's a dump off.

Bronco Rob
05-08-2012, 10:50 AM
Well the other suitors didn't have great Olines either. Tenn with the addition of Hutch became good... SF could be great. But MIA and ARI sucked balls.

And lets not forget that we gave Peyton a bigger contract than the one the Colts gave him. And this is after another surgery. So in reality Peyton chose us because 1) Money, 2) We would let him run the offense, and 3) The relationship with Fox and Elway.

I approve the Peyton as long as he is healthy... lets just not make it look that he chose us because we where the most talented team to chose from.


Money....Really?

What does Peyton have more of.....

Time or money?

And on top of that you expect me to believe that the other teams weren't offering the same thing? (allegedly) It's very doubtful that money was the driving force behind his decision.....

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 10:52 AM
The Broncos line is underrated because it is so young.

Sorry but I have seen rookies C and OG perform great in their 2 first years. Walton and Beadles where handpicked by McDouche to run a totally different offense than the one we will run. I bet Beadles gets benched during the season with Walton being replaced next draft or FA.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 10:54 AM
Money....Really?

What does Peyton have more of.....

Time or money?

And on top of that you expect me to believe that the other teams weren't offering the same thing? (allegedly) It's very doubtful that money was the driving force behind his decision.....

If it wasn't.... then how did he get a richer contract from the one the colts gave him?

Garcia Bronco
05-08-2012, 10:55 AM
Sorry but I have seen rookies C and OG perform great in their 2 first years. Walton and Beadles where handpicked by McDouche to run a totally different offense than the one we will run. I bet Beadles gets benched during the season with Walton being replaced next draft or FA.

I agree. Their play has been nothing but trash since they started here. They've had flashes, but generally they get their ass beat all day. I do expect manning to make them look better.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 10:56 AM
I would be willing to bet on average Tebow holds the ball at least 5 seconds longer then Manning.

No rocket scientist needed to realize this...

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 10:59 AM
And when Manning "gets rid of" the ball, he's usually throwing it to someone open - even if it's a dump off.

Just thinking about this makes me horny....I mean happy! As for the OL I think replacing Beadles is the only move to make this year. Hopefully Blake is the guy for that.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 11:02 AM
No rocket scientist needed to realize this...

Well then cut the OL some slack. Blocking for 8,9, or sometimes 10 seconds is never easy or possible.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 11:10 AM
Well then cut the OL some slack. Blocking for 8,9, or sometimes 10 seconds is never easy or possible.

Hell no buddy! Beadles and Walton suck! Tebow had to run for his life most of the time in passing downs because these 2 mongols couldn't prevent any type of pressure from coming up the middle. With Peyton that can't be allowed because his bread and butter is stepping up in the pocket. I am sure Peyton will make them look better... but will it last the whole season or rest of his tenure here? That's what I am worried about. I don't want to see the biggest signing we have ever accomplished being crippled before his time.

I love Beadles and Walton as persons... but as players they suck.

Drunken.Broncoholic
05-08-2012, 11:13 AM
No rocket scientist needed to realize this...

Rocket surgeons hold more water. Ha!

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 11:19 AM
Hell no buddy! Beadles and Walton suck! Tebow had to run for his life most of the time in passing downs because these 2 mongols couldn't prevent any type of pressure from coming up the middle. With Peyton that can't be allowed because his bread and butter is stepping up in the pocket. I am sure Peyton will make them look better... but will it last the whole season or rest of his tenure here? That's what I am worried about. I don't want to see the biggest signing we have ever accomplished being crippled before his time.

I love Beadles and Walton as persons... but as players they suck.

One of them will be replaced by Blake. My money is on Beadles because Walton latched onto Manning early and has a leg up on everyone on the line.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 11:19 AM
Last season while starting for the Broncos Kyle Orton was sacked 9 times in 4.5 games which extrapolates out to getting sacked 32 times in 16 games. That would put Denver in the top 1/3 for sacks allowed. Kyle Orton isn't in the same league as Peyton Manning with respect to making reads and getting rid of the football (and therefore avoiding sacks). So this top 1/3 stat figures to improve with Manning at QB, not to mention with our young OL having more experience and coaching. In other words, this belief that we're in big trouble as far as the offensive line goes appears to be some unfounded hyperbole.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 11:21 AM
One of them will be replaced by Blake. My money is on Beadles because Walton latched onto Manning early and has a leg up on everyone on the line.

Yup totally agree.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
Yup totally agree.

If Manning can work his magic with Walton our OL is in great shape. I still argue that we have two all pro type players on the line in Clady and Kuper. I hope Kuper is ready to go this year and a better LG will help Clady out.

Garcia Bronco
05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
Last season while starting for the Broncos Kyle Orton was sacked 9 times in 4.5 games which extrapolates out to getting sacked 32 times in 16 games. That would put Denver in the top 1/3 for sacks allowed. Kyle Orton isn't in the same league as Peyton Manning with respect to making reads and getting rid of the football (and therefore avoiding sacks). So this top 1/3 stat figures to improve with Manning at QB, not to mention with our young OL having more experience and coaching. In other words, this belief that we're in big trouble as far as the offensive line goes appears to be some unfounded hyperbole.

Not only that but they had a steady diet of learning how to run block, which makes them tougher, IMO.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 11:29 AM
Last season while starting for the Broncos Kyle Orton was sacked 9 times in 4.5 games which extrapolates out to getting sacked 32 times in 16 games. That would put Denver in the top 1/3 for sacks allowed. Kyle Orton isn't in the same league as Peyton Manning with respect to making reads and getting rid of the football (and therefore avoiding sacks). So this top 1/3 stat figures to improve with Manning at QB, not to mention with our young OL having more experience and coaching. In other words, this belief that we're in big trouble as far as the offensive line goes appears to be some unfounded hyperbole.

Please... stop using what if senarios! Look at our 2010 Oline stats. And we could argue that we had a better pass protection at that time... and it still sucked. You seem to forget how crappy Orton played. The reason he didn't get sacked that much is because he would throw the ball out of bounds every time he saw a pass rush a mile away. Also go look up his stats in his 5 games and compare it to his first 5 games in 09 and 10. His production was way lower. Stop blaming the OL problems on Tebow. Tebow hid the OL pass protection flaws by making it seem like a great run blocking line.

Beadles and Walton sucked! End of story!!! Clady and Franklin struggled badly too... but they are capable individuals that will get better. I am not so sure about that in regards to the other 2.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 11:31 AM
If Manning can work his magic with Walton our OL is in great shape. I still argue that we have two all pro type players on the line in Clady and Kuper. I hope Kuper is ready to go this year and a better LG will help Clady out.

Well Clady is clearly not what he was his first 2 year... but this should be year 2 removed from injury and first off season since. Kupes is tough as nails. I am sure he will be just fine. I really wish we had Kupe next to Clady again.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 11:33 AM
Stop blaming the OL problems on Tebow.

Where did I mention Tebow? Let me re-state what I just showed: the O-line was top 1/3 in fewest sacks allowed with Orton last season. It should be better with Manning. The fact that Indy's O-line deteriorated from 16 sacks in 2010 with Manning to 35 in 2011 without him seems to support my theory.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 11:45 AM
Well Clady is clearly not what he was his first 2 year... but this should be year 2 removed from injury and first off season since. Kupes is tough as nails. I am sure he will be just fine. I really wish we had Kupe next to Clady again.

It would be nice to see Kuper on the left but, at the same time that makes the right side pretty green with starting play if Blake goes to RG. Now if it was Franklin and Harris on the right side that would be different. Still hard to count on Harris and Franklin was drafted for tackle IMO.

The line had to change on the fly last year with the system change so overall I think they played well all things considered.

gyldenlove
05-08-2012, 11:46 AM
If Manning starts at least 12 game this year we give up less than 25 sacks all year. Our line is underrated and Manning is the master when it comes to anticipating pressure and getting the ball out.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 11:47 AM
Where did I mention Tebow? Let me re-state what I just showed: the O-line was top 1/3 in fewest sacks allowed with Orton last season. It should be better with Manning. The fact that Indy's O-line deteriorated from 16 sacks in 2010 with Manning to 35 in 2011 without him seems to support my theory.

You inferred it by comparing Orton's starts as the reason for optimism. And what I am worried the most aren't sacks... its hits. I am positive the sack numbers will go down... but the hits will keep coming.

It's funny how Peyton being one of the fewest QB sacked in NFL history has neck problems and 4 surgeries on it.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 11:49 AM
You inferred it by comparing Orton's starts as the reason for optimism. And what I am worried the most aren't sacks... its hits. I am positive the sack numbers will go down... but the hits will keep coming.

It's funny how Peyton being one of the fewest QB sacked in NFL history has neck problems and 4 surgeries on it.

He got injured on a cheap shot vs the Skins IMO. Also the amount of surgeries it takes to fix the problem doesn't matter as long as its fixed.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 12:02 PM
He got injured on a cheap shot vs the Skins IMO. Also the amount of surgeries it takes to fix the problem doesn't matter as long as its fixed.

It was a cheap shot... but it was still a big hit. The player yanking his head was totally cheap... but this is part of football. Hit! And no player is immune to them.

And thanks for proving my point! You don't need to get sacked to get injured... all it takes is a big hit on the wrong spot. I am worried about the interior of our Oline. That is all. I just don't understand how people seem to think that just because we have Peyton he will make those scrubs look like All Pro. It's been 2 years since we picked Beadles and Walton... and stats showed that they regressed last year.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 12:07 PM
You inferred it by comparing Orton's starts as the reason for optimism.

You just can't use Tebow in a comparison. It would be meaningless. Completely different offense and style of play. Orton, on the other hand, is a decent comparison. Immobile QB in a passing offense. This isn't hard to understand.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 12:12 PM
If Manning starts at least 12 game this year we give up less than 25 sacks all year. Our line is underrated and Manning is the master when it comes to anticipating pressure and getting the ball out.

If he only starts 12 games, I have to say I seriously doubt it. Because you can pretty much pencil in a minimum of 12 sacks in the four games with Hanie and probably closer to 16 with Osweiler.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 12:14 PM
And people, you really need to stop focusing on sacks alone. Manning is good at getting rid of the ball just before getting hit, but he still gets hit. Him having **** protection is not a good thing. Period.

maher_tyler
05-08-2012, 12:14 PM
It would be nice to see Kuper on the left but, at the same time that makes the right side pretty green with starting play if Blake goes to RG. Now if it was Franklin and Harris on the right side that would be different. Still hard to count on Harris and Franklin was drafted for tackle IMO.

The line had to change on the fly last year with the system change so overall I think they played well all things considered.

Franklin played better than i thought he would for a rookie. With a year of experience and a full offseason, i think he'll be much improved. I'm not so sure about Walton and Beadles.

Heyneck
05-08-2012, 12:21 PM
You just can't use Tebow in a comparison. It would be meaningless. Completely different offense and style of play. Orton, on the other hand, is a decent comparison. Immobile QB in a passing offense. This isn't hard to understand.

Actually you can. When Tebow goes to pass the Oline still has to protect. It's well documented that Orton threw the ball to the sideline a lot and that Tebow held on to it because he couldn't read the defense fast enough or he was trying to make something out of nothing. With Orton... if there was nothing... he would just throw it away. I get your point. I really do. But you have to realize that in a passing play the Oline still has to step up and block. With Orton and Tebow... they where not able to do that.

I remember Orton getting hit like crazy in the games he played... and Tebow getting sacked like crazy in the ones he did. The bottom line is that the Oline was not getting the job done. If you can't see how our Oline struggled on passing situations then you are just another homer that drinks way too much orange Koolaid. Nothing wrong with this... this is the same way I talk to other teams fans when trying to defend my team. But when I am talking to our fanbase... I prefer to keep it real.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 12:25 PM
...The bottom line is that the Oline was not getting the job done...

I don't disagree that our O-line is in need of improvement. I just think that Manning will make the O-line look considerably better, just like he did in Indy. I also think our young players will be at least a little bit improved over last year. We also have more competition, particularly if Harris is healthy. My biggest concern is Kuper's health.

Jay3
05-08-2012, 12:32 PM
So Manning chose the worst possible team he could go to in the twilight of his hall of fame career. Make perfect sense to me!



:thumbs:

Stop trying to predict the headlines from the next few years!

gyldenlove
05-08-2012, 12:34 PM
If he only starts 12 games, I have to say I seriously doubt it. Because you can pretty much pencil in a minimum of 12 sacks in the four games with Hanie and probably closer to 16 with Osweiler.

If he starts 12 games or more, we will be running the ball all day long in the last 4 or fewer.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 12:34 PM
I don't disagree that our O-line is in need of improvement. I just think that Manning will make the O-line look considerably better, just like he did in Indy. I also think our young players will be at least a little bit improved over last year. We also have more competition, particularly if Harris is healthy. My biggest concern is Kuper's health.

I agree that Manning will help cover up our line's weaknesses a bit in the passing game, but he isn't going to make them just magically go away. And being forced to hit safety and dump off routes to avoid pressure is going be much less productive than if he had some significant time to hit guys downfield.

And then there's the running game, which right now just flat out scares me. Before Tebow started playing we were struggling to run the ball, and now we have no Tebow, an older McGahee and a rookie back whose weakness is the same as our line (interior rushing). It doesn't look good to me, no matter how I look at it, and it leads me to think we may well end up being a 50 pass a game team like the Colts were in spite of our intentions to not repeat that pattern (I really don't see Fox wanting to play that way).

Jay3
05-08-2012, 12:34 PM
Last season while starting for the Broncos Kyle Orton was sacked 9 times in 4.5 games which extrapolates out to getting sacked 32 times in 16 games. That would put Denver in the top 1/3 for sacks allowed. Kyle Orton isn't in the same league as Peyton Manning with respect to making reads and getting rid of the football (and therefore avoiding sacks). So this top 1/3 stat figures to improve with Manning at QB, not to mention with our young OL having more experience and coaching. In other words, this belief that we're in big trouble as far as the offensive line goes appears to be some unfounded hyperbole.

I genuinely do think Kyle Orton is in the same league with Peyton with respect to getting rid of the football. He pretty much chucks it out of there as quick as he can.

He's not as good at finding something as Peyton, or making decisions and throws. But he throws it out of there for sure.

Bacchus
05-08-2012, 12:59 PM
You just don't get it. Whether or not he gets sacked, if Manning is not getting good protection his job is made much harder, and he's more likely to throw incompletions and interceptions. If we want to win a Super Bowl with the guy, we need to give him much better protection than what this line has shown over the last couple of seasons. Period.

LOL... Is there anything about this team you like? Wow, you must think they are going 0-16 this year. I do not even have to look at the Avatar to know its your post.

cmhargrove
05-08-2012, 01:04 PM
I agree that Manning will help cover up our line's weaknesses a bit in the passing game, but he isn't going to make them just magically go away. And being forced to hit safety and dump off routes to avoid pressure is going be much less productive than if he had some significant time to hit guys downfield.

And then there's the running game, which right now just flat out scares me. Before Tebow started playing we were struggling to run the ball, and now we have no Tebow, an older McGahee and a rookie back whose weakness is the same as our line (interior rushing). It doesn't look good to me, no matter how I look at it, and it leads me to think we may well end up being a 50 pass a game team like the Colts were in spite of our intentions to not repeat that pattern (I really don't see Fox wanting to play that way).

Yes, the sky is falling. We should ask if we have to even play in the NFL this year. The Broncos might as well just sit on the sidelines because you have pointed out many, many, many times that we don't have a chance of being a good team this year.

The Debbie Downer thing just gets old after a while. Try some guarded optimism for a day, you might like it.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 01:11 PM
LOL... Is there anything about this team you like? Wow, you must think they are going 0-16 this year. I do not even have to look at the Avatar to know its your post.

We were 4-12 in 2010 and 1-4 in 2011 before Tebow took over and we had a bunch of improbable wins to salvage the season (while still being outscored on the season by 80 points). With Manning, assuming he plays close to the way he has played in the past, I think it's safe to assume we will be competitive with most teams, but that's not the same as being a truly good team, much less a contender. Perhaps you and others think it's a fan's duty to pretend a turd is a diamond if that turd is your team, but I'm not of that philosophy. We still have the foundation of a 4-12 team for the most part, just with an aging future HoF QB on top of it. And while that will likely lead to more wins during the season, it won't likely result in any Super Bowls until the rest of the team is much better overall.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 01:12 PM
And then there's the running game...

On the plus side for the running game, in theory defenses won't be crowding the box as much as they did with Orton and Tebow.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 01:13 PM
Yes, the sky is falling. We should ask if we have to even play in the NFL this year. The Broncos might as well just sit on the sidelines because you have pointed out many, many, many times that we don't have a chance of being a good team this year.

The Debbie Downer thing just gets old after a while. Try some guarded optimism for a day, you might like it.

Oh, I'm sorry. Broncos are going to win the Super Bowl because we got Peyton Manning!!! Hell we are going to probably win two in a row, because Manning fixes all things!!! Yay!!!

TonyR
05-08-2012, 01:14 PM
I genuinely do think Kyle Orton is in the same league with Peyton with respect to getting rid of the football. He pretty much chucks it out of there as quick as he can.

He's not as good at finding something as Peyton, or making decisions and throws. But he throws it out of there for sure.

I partially agree, but you do recall the constant criticisms of Orton for assuming the "fetal position" during games. He also often moved right into sacks. Manning is much less likely to do either of those things as much. I would stick with my argument that Manning would be sacked less than Orton behind the same offensive live.

Agamemnon
05-08-2012, 01:16 PM
On the plus side for the running game, in theory defenses won't be crowding the box as much as they did with Orton and Tebow.

It's true, and draws could end up being very productive for us if we use them right. But I still have no faith in this o-line to just line up and cram it down teams' throats when they need to. Which basically means I expect Manning to be our 3rd down offense 90% of the time.

Requiem
05-08-2012, 01:16 PM
Oh, I'm sorry. Broncos are going to win the Super Bowl because we got Peyton Manning!!! Hell we are going to probably win two in a row, because Manning fixes all things!!! Yay!!!

32 years old. Shameful.

Mogulseeker
05-08-2012, 01:21 PM
Manning might not "fix all," but if the Broncos are a 7 win team, Manning makes them a 12 win team.

BroncoBeavis
05-08-2012, 01:30 PM
Last season while starting for the Broncos Kyle Orton was sacked 9 times in 4.5 games which extrapolates out to getting sacked 32 times in 16 games. That would put Denver in the top 1/3 for sacks allowed. Kyle Orton isn't in the same league as Peyton Manning with respect to making reads and getting rid of the football (and therefore avoiding sacks). So this top 1/3 stat figures to improve with Manning at QB, not to mention with our young OL having more experience and coaching. In other words, this belief that we're in big trouble as far as the offensive line goes appears to be some unfounded hyperbole.

Because it always makes sense to extrapolate seasons out of 4 games.

I mean after all, we all know what sack monsters 27th ranked Green Bay and 31st ranked Tennessee were.

And the getting sacked 5 times by OAK was definitely winning. :)

Jay3
05-08-2012, 02:44 PM
I partially agree, but you do recall the constant criticisms of Orton for assuming the "fetal position" during games. He also often moved right into sacks. Manning is much less likely to do either of those things as much. I would stick with my argument that Manning would be sacked less than Orton behind the same offensive live.

Maybe, but I think the pass rush will be different with Manning back there.

With some quarterbacks, you throw a combination of things at them -- coverage looks, zone blitz, all kinds of stuff. Get them to make a bad decision, etc.

With Manning (and probably Brady), nothing but pressure works. Given time, they will surgically slice and dice you. So the pass rush is a lot more pressure on the O-line, because it's the full-on works.

Garcia Bronco
05-08-2012, 02:46 PM
Maybe, but I think the pass rush will be different with Manning back there.

With some quarterbacks, you throw a combination of things at them -- coverage looks, zone blitz, all kinds of stuff. Get them to make a bad decision, etc.

With Manning (and probably Brady), nothing but pressure works. Given time, they will surgically slice and dice you. So the pass rush is a lot more pressure on the O-line, because it's the full-on works.

They'll still have to bring more than four...maybe 6...that means someone is open.

crazyhorse
05-08-2012, 03:12 PM
Manning might have to take a beatin' this season.

If we can get pressure, we have a pretty good secondary.

Hali owns Clady.

Mogulseeker
05-08-2012, 03:33 PM
Manning might have to take a beatin' this season.

If we can get pressure, we have a pretty good secondary.

Hali owns Clady.

Hali, unlike a lot of other D-ends, has had his way with Clady on occasion. I wouldn't say he owns him though. He just does better against him than most.

I fully expect Clady to be back to form this year with a full offseason of ankle rehab.

crazyhorse
05-08-2012, 03:46 PM
Hali, unlike a lot of other D-ends, has had his way with Clady on occasion. I wouldn't say he owns him though. He just does better against him than most.

I fully expect Clady to be back to form this year with a full offseason of ankle rehab.

Own is the correct term. It may be tough to swallow. But I wouldn't have used it if it wasn't accurate. I didn't say we would score a bunch of points, or even win the game. But I dont think your line, as it stands today, will hold up against us.

Bacchus
05-08-2012, 04:31 PM
We were 4-12 in 2010 and 1-4 in 2011 before Tebow took over and we had a bunch of improbable wins to salvage the season (while still being outscored on the season by 80 points). With Manning, assuming he plays close to the way he has played in the past, I think it's safe to assume we will be competitive with most teams, but that's not the same as being a truly good team, much less a contender. Perhaps you and others think it's a fan's duty to pretend a turd is a diamond if that turd is your team, but I'm not of that philosophy. We still have the foundation of a 4-12 team for the most part, just with an aging future HoF QB on top of it. And while that will likely lead to more wins during the season, it won't likely result in any Super Bowls until the rest of the team is much better overall.

Last year was the turd, this year and next year will be diamonds.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 04:35 PM
Own is the correct term. It may be tough to swallow. But I wouldn't have used it if it wasn't accurate. I didn't say we would score a bunch of points, or even win the game. But I dont think your line, as it stands today, will hold up against us.

Did he have a sack vs us last year?

crazyhorse
05-08-2012, 04:45 PM
Did he have a sack vs us last year?

Not sure about the second game. The 1st game there was like 8 passes. Getting a sack in a game like that would be tough. That dont mean Hali didnt have a good game. Not sure if you even reach mid field in the second game.

fontaine
05-08-2012, 04:46 PM
Sometimes, it's pretty easy to tell who doesn't actually really watch/pay attention to the OL because of what's said about Franklin. As a rookie playing RT and protecting the blind side for most of the season he gave up 7.5 sacks and about 31 pressures.

That's almost the same amount of sacks/pressures as Clady who wasn't protecting Tebow's blind side.

As a rookie Franklin wasn't great or near worst at pass protection and got better as the season wore on. He was, though, an absolute mauler in the run game. Like it or not, he's staying at RT and if he stays healthy then he's going to be a very very good tackle for the team.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Not sure about the second game. The 1st game there was like 8 passes. Getting a sack in a game like that would be tough. That dont mean Hali didnt have a good game. Not sure if you even reach mid field in the second game.

We fumbled in or around the RZ that second game.

KCStud
05-08-2012, 08:28 PM
Did he have a sack vs us last year?

Pretty much. He got to Tebow and got away with a facemask.

Orlando Franklin struggled last year. Even Tyson Jackson was getting deep into the backfield against him.

Doggcow
05-08-2012, 08:55 PM
We ONLY had a "good" oline when we beat good teams. Otherwise we were terrible.

Had to put the blame on someone other than Tebow. It helped to spread it around giving it to the Oline and stuff.

DBroncos4life
05-08-2012, 09:50 PM
Pretty much. He got to Tebow and got away with a facemask.

Orlando Franklin struggled last year. Even Tyson Jackson was getting deep into the backfield against him.

It says he had zero in two games vs us on espn.

kappys
05-08-2012, 09:57 PM
Pretty much. He got to Tebow and got away with a facemask.

Orlando Franklin struggled last year. Even Tyson Jackson was getting deep into the backfield against him.

Franklin struggles to backpedal quickly and handle speed rushers - the Patriots abused him with Ninkovich of all people. Other than that he is quality - he doesn't get beat by bull rushes or inside moves and he is a mauler int he run game.

it remains to be seen if he can round out the one really weak part of his game with a proper NFL offseason. If he can I have great hopes for his future. If not then he will need help from a back or TE to prevent teams from beating him with speed or consider a possible move to guard where I think he would be an pro bowl caliber player.

Cito Pelon
05-08-2012, 10:30 PM
I have no idea what this OL will look like come opening day, the staff apparently likes what they have. They're overloaded on OT's right now with Hills, Clark, Harris, Franklin, Clady. Little bit short on OG competition unless you count in the UDFA's. So that tells me they aren't too worried about the OG position with Ramirez and the rookie Blake. Ramirez they had working at center and at guard last preseason, Blake they'll probably do the same this year. They have a lot of options. Beadles can play OT also.

fontaine
05-09-2012, 04:21 AM
Franklin struggles to backpedal quickly and handle speed rushers - the Patriots abused him with Ninkovich of all people. Other than that he is quality - he doesn't get beat by bull rushes or inside moves and he is a mauler int he run game.

it remains to be seen if he can round out the one really weak part of his game with a proper NFL offseason. If he can I have great hopes for his future. If not then he will need help from a back or TE to prevent teams from beating him with speed or consider a possible move to guard where I think he would be an pro bowl caliber player.

I agree he needs to improve but let's put his rookie performance into perspective here compared to two other rookie right tackles that were considered the two best in their class last year at the end of the season:

Nate Solder, 17th overall: 6.5 sacks allowed and 34.5 pressures (did he play all 16 games?)
http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-15/sports/31059628_1_patriots-kevin-faulk-benjarvus-green-ellis/3

Tyron Smith, 9th overall: 8 sacks and 21 quarterback pressures
http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/cowboys/2012/01/tyron-smith-seems-likely-to-switch-sides-with-doug-free-in-2012.html

Orland Franklin, 46th overall: 7 sacks, 31 QB pressures
http://www.footballfanspot.com/broncosneeds2012.htm

The numbers might vary a bit as pressures allowed isn't an officially recorded stat, but Franklin was the only guy here:
1. protecting the actual blind side,
2. having to re-adjust completely with a new offense after Tebow came in
3. and both of those other guys were protecting QBs in Brady/Romo that get rid of the ball much quicker than Tebow and are better at sensing the pass rush.

I don't like relying on stats only, but also on what I see and I see enough in Franklin to say he's got the basic tools/technique and strength to be a very good RT. The only real problem he has is his 3rd/4th step against speed rushers that go wide outside but that can be said about most tackles in the league.

kappys
05-09-2012, 06:19 AM
I agree he needs to improve but let's put his rookie performance into perspective here compared to two other rookie right tackles that were considered the two best in their class last year at the end of the season:

Nate Solder, 17th overall: 6.5 sacks allowed and 34.5 pressures (did he play all 16 games?)
http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-15/sports/31059628_1_patriots-kevin-faulk-benjarvus-green-ellis/3

Tyron Smith, 9th overall: 8 sacks and 21 quarterback pressures
http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/cowboys/2012/01/tyron-smith-seems-likely-to-switch-sides-with-doug-free-in-2012.html

Orland Franklin, 46th overall: 7 sacks, 31 QB pressures
http://www.footballfanspot.com/broncosneeds2012.htm

The numbers might vary a bit as pressures allowed isn't an officially recorded stat, but Franklin was the only guy here:
1. protecting the actual blind side,
2. having to re-adjust completely with a new offense after Tebow came in
3. and both of those other guys were protecting QBs in Brady/Romo that get rid of the ball much quicker than Tebow and are better at sensing the pass rush.

I don't like relying on stats only, but also on what I see and I see enough in Franklin to say he's got the basic tools/technique and strength to be a very good RT. The only real problem he has is his 3rd/4th step against speed rushers that go wide outside but that can be said about most tackles in the league.

I agree with everything you've written here - as I mentioned he needs to improve in this area. I'm really only going to worry if he simply can't improve on this aspect as other teams will target it - more and more teams are happy to pay for guys that do nothing but speed rush the passer on 3rd down.

Bronco Rob
05-09-2012, 08:15 AM
If it wasn't.... then how did he get a richer contract from the one the colts gave him?



The Colts owed him 28 million....

Heyneck
05-09-2012, 09:06 AM
The Colts owed him 28 million....

So? He got a richer contract overall.