Are we programming boys to fail?

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/05/02/are-we-programming-boys-fail

On Wednesday night, HLN’s Dr. Drew talked to attorney Lisa Bloom, who is also the author of "Swagger: 10 Urgent Rules for Raising Boys in an Era of Failing Schools, Mass Joblessness, and Thug Culture".

“What I talk about is the four cultural forces hammering boys,” Bloom said. “Failing schools, our terrible economy right now where young men in particular have very high unemployment rates. Also, thug culture -- a lot of media messages that encourage boys to be violent, to attack women, to beat up gay men. And the fourth one is mass incarceration, where we incarcerate four times as many boys today we did when I was a girl.”

Hear the thought provoking discussion in the video clip above.

[That One Guy]

I'm not gonna watch the video because I reject the idea outright. I have a six year old son and, quite literally, NOWHERE do I encounter anything that teaches him to beat up women and gays.

[cutthemdown]

Really because I think the media and mainstream thinking is hammering home anti bully, anti gay bashing, acceptance etc etc. Especially it is considered lowly and outright unacceptable to hit women or abuse kids.

Since when do people encourage such things.

[Rohirrim]

I'm raising three boys. This is nothing but crap dreamed up to sell books and TV programs. These days, paranoia is a better sales ploy than even boobs. Ha!

[TonyR]

On loosely related topic... (didn't feel like starting a new thread)


Any radical rethinking of American public policy ought to start with a consideration of one of our most politically neglected populations: The majority of 3-to-5-year-olds who have no access to high-quality, low-cost educational options. As scientists have learned more about the brain, they've concluded the early years are the most crucial ones for cognitive development. Seventy-five percent of middle-class kindergarteners can write their own names, compared to just about half of poor kindergartners. The typical middle-class 5-year old can identify all 26 letters of the alphabet on her first day of school; a 5-year old living in poverty may know only two letters. By first grade, middle-class children have double the vocabulary of their low-income peers.

All these early literacy skills are associated with success in elementary school and beyond: Third-graders who aren't proficient in reading are four times less likely than proficient readers to graduate from high school.

http://www.good.is/post/big-idea-universal-pre-k-to-teach-children-and-create-jobs/

[Pony Boy]

I went to a t-ball game the other day and found out that every kid gets to bat and they don't even keep score during the game..........WTF

Some of the best lessons in life are when you get benched for not playing good and getting the crap kicked out of you by another team.

[TonyR]

I went to a t-ball game the other day and found out that every kid gets to bat and they don't even keep score during the game..........WTF

Some of the best lessons in life are when you get benched for not playing good and getting the crap kicked out of you by another team.

My son's 7-8 yr old coach pitch baseball team is awful. They've lost every game and get mercy ruled all too frequently. My son is undersized and would be about an average player on most teams but he's one of the 2 or 3 best on this team. After every inning the coaches clap and say "good job" as the kids come off the field even though they massively failed five or six times for every success. I stew and pace during every game, trying to keep the expletives from coming out of my mouth. I'd really like for the coaches to sometimes tell the boys what they did wrong and what they need to do better, but that's just not how it works these days. Frustrating and infuriating, and I'm starting to hear some grumbling from some other parents although most are oblivious.

[Meck77]

My son's 7-8 yr old coach pitch baseball team is awful. They've lost every game and get mercy ruled all too frequently. My son is undersized and would be about an average player on most teams but he's one of the 2 or 3 best on this team. After every inning the coaches clap and say "good job" as the kids come off the field even though they massively failed five or six times for every success. I stew and pace during every game, trying to keep the expletives from coming out of my mouth. I'd really like for the coaches to sometimes tell the boys what they did wrong and what they need to do better, but that's just not how it works these days. Frustrating and infuriating, and I'm starting to hear some grumbling from some other parents although most are oblivious.

Solution. Become the coach or continue to be part of the problem.

[Pony Boy]

My son's 7-8 yr old coach pitch baseball team is awful. They've lost every game and get mercy ruled all too frequently. My son is undersized and would be about an average player on most teams but he's one of the 2 or 3 best on this team. After every inning the coaches clap and say "good job" as the kids come off the field even though they massively failed five or six times for every success. I stew and pace during every game, trying to keep the expletives from coming out of my mouth. I'd really like for the coaches to sometimes tell the boys what they did wrong and what they need to do better, but that's just not how it works these days. Frustrating and infuriating, and I'm starting to hear some grumbling from some other parents although most are oblivious.

I think you trace back all the problems with young kids today to removing dodgeball from school.........

[That One Guy]

On loosely related topic... (didn't feel like starting a new thread)


Any radical rethinking of American public policy ought to start with a consideration of one of our most politically neglected populations: The majority of 3-to-5-year-olds who have no access to high-quality, low-cost educational options. As scientists have learned more about the brain, they've concluded the early years are the most crucial ones for cognitive development. Seventy-five percent of middle-class kindergarteners can write their own names, compared to just about half of poor kindergartners. The typical middle-class 5-year old can identify all 26 letters of the alphabet on her first day of school; a 5-year old living in poverty may know only two letters. By first grade, middle-class children have double the vocabulary of their low-income peers.

All these early literacy skills are associated with success in elementary school and beyond: Third-graders who aren't proficient in reading are four times less likely than proficient readers to graduate from high school.

http://www.good.is/post/big-idea-universal-pre-k-to-teach-children-and-create-jobs/

So things as simple as writing your name are tied to money now? Maybe it's just that those that are more successful understand the need for education which furthers success in their children? If a parent really wanted to teach a kid, they'd take them out and write it in the dirt with a stick if they had to. How pathetic (the premise and the people, not you) it is to make so many excuses for these people failing their own children.

[TonyR]

Solution. Become the coach or continue to be part of the problem.

First, I'm not necessarily blaming the coaches. The fact that some of these boys are so awful at least partly starts at home. Have these boys never tossed a ball with dad (or mom) in the back yard?

Second, we've had good coaches on past teams so I didn't expect there to be a "problem", to the extent there is one.

Third, another problem we have is that typically the coaches' sons are good players. Our head coach has twin sons on the team and they're the teams' worst players.

But I expected a response like yours and it's not unreasonable. But at the same time, in today's environment, how would people respond to someone actually correcting their sons?

[TonyR]

I think you trace back all the problems with young kids today to removing dodgeball from school.........

Ah, yes! In junior high we played a game called "smear". It was really great and most of the boys loved it. But it could get a little rough and somebody's parents complained. You know what happened next: no more smear. The gym teacher should have given everyone a choice: you can play smear or run laps!

[TonyR]

How pathetic (the premise and the people, not you) it is to make so many excuses for these people failing their own children.

Tough issue, like so many are. It's largely a socioeconomic thing, and the deck is stacked against those on the bottom rung. Cycle of poverty and all that which I know some people don't agree with, but this is both a cause and symptom of it. Kids can't choose their parents.

[Arkie]

First, I'm not necessarily blaming the coaches. The fact that some of these boys are so awful at least partly starts at home. Have these boys never tossed a ball with dad (or mom) in the back yard?

Second, we've had good coaches on past teams so I didn't expect there to be a "problem", to the extent there is one.

Third, another problem we have is that typically the coaches' sons are good players. Our head coach has twin sons on the team and they're the teams' worst players.

But I expected a response like yours and it's not unreasonable. But at the same time, in today's environment, how would people respond to someone actually correcting their sons?

I've coached that same age group (7-8) in 2010. The kids had a lot of fun. Most of them are not very good, and they don't remember whether they won. We had a pizza party at the end of the year and every kid got a trophy. The worst part of the whole experience was dealing with the parents that took it way too seriously. It's just about having fun at that age or younger.

[That One Guy]

Tough issue, like so many are. It's largely a socioeconomic thing, and the deck is stacked against those on the bottom rung. Cycle of poverty and all that which I know some people don't agree with, but this is both a cause and symptom of it. Kids can't choose their parents.

I agree. I just think more of these studies should emphasize general flaws in the poor people rather than imply that they can't succeed because they're poor. It's not being poor that makes them failures, it's being failures that makes them poor.

Again, generalizing here. I know some awesome poor people that I'd do anything for. They just make mistakes in life that I don't make. For better or worse, my kid is in the school's gifted program and my family is comfortable economically despite us all coming from similar roots.

[Meck77]

Our head coach has twin sons on the team and they're the teams' worst players.

Well Tony that explains your teams dynamic right there. You expect the other boys to learn from this coach if his own kids can't?

If you sit idle you are in fact part of the teams problem. I'm not just saying you but each and every parent who's kid is on that team. You want to see a change in the culture of that team. Be the change.

[TonyR]

I've coached that same age group (7-8) in 2010. The kids had a lot of fun. Most of them are not very good, and they don't remember whether they won. We had a pizza party at the end of the year and every kid got a trophy. The worst part of the whole experience was dealing with the parents that took it way too seriously. It's just about having fun at that age or younger.

Thankfully these kids are having fun. I'm far more frustrated than the kids are! Beyond having fun I'd like to see them learning and improving, and it would be nice to win one freaking game...

[ElwayMD]

Thankfully these kids are having fun. I'm far more frustrated than the kids are! Beyond having fun I'd like to see them learning and improving, and it would be nice to win one freaking game...

I agree that it is frustrating watching coaches for youth sports being cheerleaders instead of coaches. Working with the kids to improve is part of being a youth coach. Seems like we have forgotten that somewhere along the line.

[ghwk]

My son's 7-8 yr old coach pitch baseball team is awful. They've lost every game and get mercy ruled all too frequently. My son is undersized and would be about an average player on most teams but he's one of the 2 or 3 best on this team. After every inning the coaches clap and say "good job" as the kids come off the field even though they massively failed five or six times for every success. I stew and pace during every game, trying to keep the expletives from coming out of my mouth. I'd really like for the coaches to sometimes tell the boys what they did wrong and what they need to do better, but that's just not how it works these days. Frustrating and infuriating, and I'm starting to hear some grumbling from some other parents although most are oblivious.

Meh, I've got two boys playing now and have been coaching thier teams for years. Once little league gets real after coach pitch they get all the stuff you guys are complaing about. Age 8/9 is when their innocence cherry starts to get popped. Enjoy it right now, you will have a whole other set of problems when your kid is the average one and he knows it compared to his peers. Even the studs run into problems sooner or later. Just ask Burfict what his life is like in about 6 months.

[Requiem]

Some kids just aren't good at sports. I was a 3 time city champion in baseball. So awesome.

[ghwk]

Third, another problem we have is that typically the coaches' sons are good players. Our head coach has twin sons on the team and they're the teams' worst players.

Let me shed a bit of light here. The coaches kids might suck BUT HE IS COACHING! Those of you who have done this know the parents that are full of opinons and suggestions but don't lift a finger to help the team. Maybe one of the reasons he is doing it is to make sure his kids learn the game instead of getting marginalized by an overly competitive coach at that age resulting in kids quitting when they may have been great players in a couple of years.

Case in point my oldest is 13 and he's small, he's also a hell of a 2nd baseman and starts for his juniors team. One of the reasons I coach is to make sure he gets a chance where other coach's wouidn't give him one because of his size. Fortunately he is really good so I've never had to justify his playing time but I make sure it is balanced with other talented or less talented kids on his team. I am also probably harder on him that I am on the other kids so he has earned it the hard way. I'm also worried as heck for him in two years when he's in high school and won't make the ball team because of his size if he doesn't grow more. He simply isn't as powerful or as fast as his peers right now but he loves the game. I'm bummed that he will be "funnelled out" but it is going to happen at some point. In the meantime the journey has been fun for him and that is what matters most.

The other coach on my younger sons team is a former SS for the Phillies. He's actually appalled at how competitive we make it for the kids at such an early age. All the learning/humiliation/ etc. they need will come, the point is to keep them playing right now. I always gauged my success less by my record (and my teams did pretty well) and more by how many players I could return each year. If 9 or 10 came back for another season then I think I did ok.

[That One Guy]

Let me shed a bit of light here. The coaches kids might suck BUT HE IS COACHING! Those of you who have done this know the parents that are full of opinons and suggestions but don't lift a finger to help the team. Maybe one of the reasons he is doing it is to make sure his kids learn the game instead of getting marginalized by an overly competitive coach at that age resulting in kids quitting when they may have been great players in a couple of years.

Case in point my oldest is 13 and he's small, he's also a hell of a 2nd baseman and starts for his juniors team. One of the reasons I coach is to make sure he gets a chance where other coach's wouidn't give him one because of his size. Fortunately he is really good so I've never had to justify his playing time but I make sure it is balanced with other talented or less talented kids on his team. I am also probably harder on him that I am on the other kids so he has earned it the hard way. I'm also worried as heck for him in two years when he's in high school and won't make the ball team because of his size if he doesn't grow more. He simply isn't as powerful or as fast as his peers right now but he loves the game. I'm bummed that he will be "funnelled out" but it is going to happen at some point. In the meantime the journey has been fun for him and that is what matters most.

The other coach on my younger sons team is a former SS for the Phillies. He's actually appalled at how competitive we make it for the kids at such an early age. All the learning/humiliation/ etc. they need will come, the point is to keep them playing right now. I always gauged my success less by my record (and my teams did pretty well) and more by how many players I could return each year. If 9 or 10 came back for another season then I think I did ok.

In terms of significance, the lessons they learn through sports greatly outweighs the simple enjoyment of playing. You can go climb trees to just get some exercise and play but organized sports are about all those other things. If properly administered, sports is able to teach someone discipline, perseverance, humility, consideration, etc. Sometimes those things can't be taught as thoroughly elsewhere. That's what I'm afraid we lose in the everyone wins era.

[ghwk]

In terms of significance, the lessons they learn through sports greatly outweighs the simple enjoyment of playing. You can go climb trees to just get some exercise and play but organized sports are about all those other things. If properly administered, sports is able to teach someone discipline, perseverance, humility, consideration, etc. Sometimes those things can't be taught as thoroughly elsewhere. That's what I'm afraid we lose in the everyone wins era.

Don't overdramatize. Everyone wins in baseball stops, at least in my neck of the woods, when you get into AA baseball at age 8 or 9. That gives them plenty of years to discover how badly they suck.

[Requiem]

Second base, thatta boy. I played that in my upper teens in Pony/Colt.

[BroncoBeavis]

Solution. Become the coach or continue to be part of the problem.

That works later, but not when the problem is institutionalized (like T-ball)

What are you going to do... keep score when everyone bats every inning?

HA! We won because we got 2 outs in that one inning and they only got 1!

In my son's league you'd have one team with 13 kids out on the field and the other would only have 9. It's pretty funny to watch once you get past how annoying it is to not care about the result of the game at all.

[cutthemdown]

On loosely related topic... (didn't feel like starting a new thread)


Any radical rethinking of American public policy ought to start with a consideration of one of our most politically neglected populations: The majority of 3-to-5-year-olds who have no access to high-quality, low-cost educational options. As scientists have learned more about the brain, they've concluded the early years are the most crucial ones for cognitive development. Seventy-five percent of middle-class kindergarteners can write their own names, compared to just about half of poor kindergartners. The typical middle-class 5-year old can identify all 26 letters of the alphabet on her first day of school; a 5-year old living in poverty may know only two letters. By first grade, middle-class children have double the vocabulary of their low-income peers.

All these early literacy skills are associated with success in elementary school and beyond: Third-graders who aren't proficient in reading are four times less likely than proficient readers to graduate from high school.

http://www.good.is/post/big-idea-universal-pre-k-to-teach-children-and-create-jobs/


It doesn't take money or some great teacher to teach kids the alphabet and how to form basic words. This is all about parents of poor people never reading with kids. not how much govt spends on them. Poor people want to think everything is about money and a fancy school, but its not.

[cutthemdown]

In terms of significance, the lessons they learn through sports greatly outweighs the simple enjoyment of playing. You can go climb trees to just get some exercise and play but organized sports are about all those other things. If properly administered, sports is able to teach someone discipline, perseverance, humility, consideration, etc. Sometimes those things can't be taught as thoroughly elsewhere. That's what I'm afraid we lose in the everyone wins era.

I think playing music does more for kids and is way more underfunded then sports. Really sports get all the money and I'm not sure it teaches all the great things people say. Tons of coaches only care about winning. Growing up doing both like I did I think i have a pretty good handle on it. All my best friends are ones I played music with, not sports.

[Requiem]

I think playing music does more for kids and is way more underfunded then sports. Really sports get all the money and I'm not sure it teaches all the great things people say. Tons of coaches only care about winning. Growing up doing both like I did I think i have a pretty good handle on it. All my best friends are ones I played music with, not sports.

Music is an incredibly healthy outlet for children of all ages. I didn't have my axe out with me in Colorado for the 9 months I was there and it KILLED ME dude. I've been shredding as much as possible since I got home. I wondered where my Marshall Amp was, but forgot I donated it to my old bosses' son so he could learn the magic of music too. ^5

[TonyR]

I just think more of these studies should emphasize general flaws in the poor people rather than imply that they can't succeed because they're poor. It's not being poor that makes them failures, it's being failures that makes them poor.

Okay. A poor kid whose parents support them and help them has a shot to succeed, just like a middle class or rich kid whose parents do the same. But poorer kids are considerably more likely to have parents that don't support them, and therefore they have a considerably lower chance to succeed. Not only that but they go to worse schools and have less of a support system than less unfortunate kids.

[TonyR]

It doesn't take money or some great teacher to teach kids the alphabet and how to form basic words. This is all about parents of poor people never reading with kids. not how much govt spends on them.

I agree. But what do you propose be done to help kids whose parent don't support/help them? And I'm sure you'd agree that poorer kids have worse schools and less of a support system. I'm only stating facts here, not proposing a solution. But you have to start by acknowledging reality.

[cutthemdown]

Let me shed a bit of light here. The coaches kids might suck BUT HE IS COACHING! Those of you who have done this know the parents that are full of opinons and suggestions but don't lift a finger to help the team. Maybe one of the reasons he is doing it is to make sure his kids learn the game instead of getting marginalized by an overly competitive coach at that age resulting in kids quitting when they may have been great players in a couple of years.

Case in point my oldest is 13 and he's small, he's also a hell of a 2nd baseman and starts for his juniors team. One of the reasons I coach is to make sure he gets a chance where other coach's wouidn't give him one because of his size. Fortunately he is really good so I've never had to justify his playing time but I make sure it is balanced with other talented or less talented kids on his team. I am also probably harder on him that I am on the other kids so he has earned it the hard way. I'm also worried as heck for him in two years when he's in high school and won't make the ball team because of his size if he doesn't grow more. He simply isn't as powerful or as fast as his peers right now but he loves the game. I'm bummed that he will be "funnelled out" but it is going to happen at some point. In the meantime the journey has been fun for him and that is what matters most.

The other coach on my younger sons team is a former SS for the Phillies. He's actually appalled at how competitive we make it for the kids at such an early age. All the learning/humiliation/ etc. they need will come, the point is to keep them playing right now. I always gauged my success less by my record (and my teams did pretty well) and more by how many players I could return each year. If 9 or 10 came back for another season then I think I did ok.

My brother coaches flag football this yr not knowing anything, because a team needed a coach and he wanted his kid to play. They only won 1 game but still he and the kids got better.

I saw it first hand. Parents that show up every other game and tell him how he should be doing it. If you want to coach the coach, if not shut up and watch. You should only comment if your kid isn't treated right. I saw one coach whose kid is best qb in the league. He threw 2 picks and lost and was getting chewed out by dad after the game.

Sports are great but you rarely see anything like this in music.

[cutthemdown]

I agree. But what do you propose be done to help kids whose parent don't support/help them? And I'm sure you'd agree that poorer kids have worse schools and less of a support system. I'm only stating facts here, not proposing a solution. But you have to start by acknowledging reality.

I guess local communities need to rally together to figure out how to pay for Preschools for low income families. Maybe more community run preschools at local parks etc etc. Informal basic math and reading to help parents see what kids need to know going into Kindergarten. They would have to rally volunteers. Maybe use young students looking for credit. Older HS kids who want to be teachers etc etc. Set up a way for parents to bring young kids to the HS where older HS learn how to teach young kids the alphabet. The HS students get valuable skills along with the preschoolers. I'm ignorant of what they actually teach preschoolers, if its just reading and the alphabet it would still be a challenge for HS kids to help doing that. But it would be better then nothing. Maybe if you show the parents reading skills they will then do it with kids. Much of what parents don't do is out of ignorance and the fear of failure. IMO.

How about instead of saying seized drug money goes to police, we instead give that to education in the areas that have the most crime.
So police find 10 grand in south central LA instead of the rich police dept using it for fancy helicopters give it to the states education spending. or the cites whichever works best after smart math dudes study it etc etc.

Then maybe do something like reduce military spending by 2-3% a yr for 5 yrs, and divert 1% to education. That way we still cut spending but schools could also get a chunk. Only way to make real cuts in troop levels though so it would mean kicking out some soldiers, and probably cutting some programs. The problem with trying to cut programs is when you only need to cut 1 or 2 big ones, it gets very political which ones get caught.

You cut something like a nuclear submarines, and the states those shipyards were in take a huge you lose the election type hit. We all know how these type of fights go. Our dems and repubs simply refuse to work with each other. One side will call it working by saying this is what we want, agree to it or we shove it down your throats. Sure they make a few tweaks to act like they are trying to work together but we all know better now.

Lastly for kids whose parents utterly refuse to help, or try, not much you can do. I don't think it will be a high % though. I really think the human brain is geared to want your kids to do well. It will thankfully always be a low % who are the ones who kill kids. It will be a low % of parents who say I don't care one bit, won't lift a finger for my kids.

My guess would be many poor parents are poor because they themselves are not that smart, didn't finish school. So I understand the cycle and see how it is really hard to solve. We have way too many black students not finishing HS. Like COndi Rice said its so bad most of them couldn't even join the armed forces.

I would say get more into military but they have more recruits then they need. Even with wars there is no shortage of recruits.

[That One Guy]

Okay. A poor kid whose parents support them and help them has a shot to succeed, just like a middle class or rich kid whose parents do the same. But poorer kids are considerably more likely to have parents that don't support them, and therefore they have a considerably lower chance to succeed.

And that's pretty much where the discussion ends for me. The answer is to fix the parents.

[That One Guy]

I think playing music does more for kids and is way more underfunded then sports. Really sports get all the money and I'm not sure it teaches all the great things people say. Tons of coaches only care about winning. Growing up doing both like I did I think i have a pretty good handle on it. All my best friends are ones I played music with, not sports.

I think many of the same concepts are present in music as in sports. Still something that you have to dedicate yourself to. I think the dynamics of a group activity and having to work together could present value where an individual activity fails.