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Bob
05-02-2012, 07:21 PM
There are many things that Bush has done to hurt the economy: I am capable along with many conservatives of calling him on those things. I just hope that when Obama makes missteps along the way those left of center will have some level of intellectual curiosity and honesty with their secular Messiah.

So are there Dems out there that got the intellectual honesty to call out Obama on a few things in 2012? What have been your biggest disappointments?

My rant of Bush continues below:

Things Bush has done to hurt the economy:
1. Going into Iraq. I am torn on what to do now that we are there – but the in terms of dollars and cents – if we wouldn’t have gone we would have more resources to spend elsewhere.
2. Bush has spent more than any pres that I know of – I think his tax breaks have been great to stimulate the economy but if you don’t combine cuts in taxes with cuts in spending then you end up having more debt. Bush is not a conservative when it comes to cutting spending.
3. The solution to "protect us" from the tech bubble has been to create a housing bubble by lowering interest rates -- too much cheap money is devaluing our dolar and adding to the cost of gas and everything else we buy.
4. Bush has not done enough to get more fuel on-line (part of this must be attributed to spending his political capital elsewhere – see Iraq.)
5. He has been near traitorous on how he has dealt with the border. Little enforcement of the law, and an unwillingness to call out those who are stopping the fence from being built. Instead of Iraq – I would have made my argument directly to the American people for immigration reform – how does this fit into the economy? It fits because the “savings” in cheap tomatoes and strawberries are in from drug enforcement costs, prisons, medical costs, deflated American wages and the moral bankruptcy demonstrated by a country that has shown through our actions/inaction that we are ok with human slavery.

That One Guy
05-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Aside from the Iraq bit, I think a lot of what we dislike about Bush and now Obama is key to getting elected in today's political world. You can't isolate anyone and immigration isolates. You can't raise taxes because people get upset. You can't cut spending because people get upset. Someone that would do those things, won't get elected.

It all comes back to the old "the people will vote themselves all the money in the treasury..."

peacepipe
05-03-2012, 06:04 AM
you can raise taxes,clinton did. when the GWB tax cuts expire a majority of the country isn't going to shed a tear over it. probably feel relief.
obama should've never extended the tax cut
obama should've just got rid of the age requirement in medicare to solve HCR.
obama shoudn't have signed the 10 yr agreement with afghan.
too early in the morning to think of more,but will add on to this list later.

That One Guy
05-03-2012, 10:56 AM
you can raise taxes,clinton did. when the GWB tax cuts expire a majority of the country isn't going to shed a tear over it. probably feel relief.
obama should've never extended the tax cut
obama should've just got rid of the age requirement in medicare to solve HCR.
obama shoudn't have signed the 10 yr agreement with afghan.
too early in the morning to think of more,but will add on to this list later.

I can't disagree with what you said but it won't be enough. None of what you say will allow us to pay our bills. Even raising the age in medicare is gonna have some pretty tough opposition and that may be why they haven't touched it yet. This is a start, though.

Bob
05-03-2012, 11:25 AM
I can't disagree with what you said but it won't be enough. None of what you say will allow us to pay our bills. Even raising the age in medicare is gonna have some pretty tough opposition and that may be why they haven't touched it yet. This is a start, though.

From what I understand, JFK lowered taxes, and paradoxicly, federal income rose. In my opinion Obama did the right thing for the ecomony and politicly by leaving tax rates alone.

That One Guy
05-03-2012, 12:24 PM
From what I understand, JFK lowered taxes, and paradoxicly, federal income rose. In my opinion Obama did the right thing for the ecomony and politicly by leaving tax rates alone.

I can completely see the logic in lowering taxes but increasing income. I can see the logic in raising taxes and decreasing income as the inverse, as well. Ultimately, all that tells us is there is multiple factors at play here and we just have to figure out something that works. What it also tells us is anyone that says "OMG, the USA was the bomb until Reagan lowered taxes" is being overly simplistic and dismissing all the alternative factors that could have been at play.

My biggest issue, though, is just that as long as these ideologies aren't implemented, we can't prove that they're good or not. I think raising taxes on corporations will push more jobs offshore. People say that's not true. That leaves us at a standstill. The only way to resolve that is to raise the taxes and see if it pushes them offshore.

The drawback being there's so many people that know with absolute certainty that they have the answer, we could spend the next 5 lifetimes trying everyone's ideas and have a really chaotic government to show for it. If only we had the state testing ground concept to work with...

El Minion
05-03-2012, 01:41 PM
There are many things that Bush has done to hurt the economy: I am capable along with many conservatives of calling him on those things. I just hope that when Obama makes missteps along the way those left of center will have some level of intellectual curiosity and honesty with their secular Messiah.

So are there Dems out there that got the intellectual honesty to call out Obama on a few things in 2012? What have been your biggest disappointments?

My rant of Bush continues below:

Things Bush has done to hurt the economy:
1. Going into Iraq. I am torn on what to do now that we are there – but the in terms of dollars and cents – if we wouldn’t have gone we would have more resources to spend elsewhere.
2. Bush has spent more than any pres that I know of – I think his tax breaks have been great to stimulate the economy but if you don’t combine cuts in taxes with cuts in spending then you end up having more debt. Bush is not a conservative when it comes to cutting spending.
3. The solution to "protect us" from the tech bubble has been to create a housing bubble by lowering interest rates -- too much cheap money is devaluing our dolar and adding to the cost of gas and everything else we buy.
4. Bush has not done enough to get more fuel on-line (part of this must be attributed to spending his political capital elsewhere – see Iraq.)
5. He has been near traitorous on how he has dealt with the border. Little enforcement of the law, and an unwillingness to call out those who are stopping the fence from being built. Instead of Iraq – I would have made my argument directly to the American people for immigration reform – how does this fit into the economy? It fits because the “savings” in cheap tomatoes and strawberries are in from drug enforcement costs, prisons, medical costs, deflated American wages and the moral bankruptcy demonstrated by a country that has shown through our actions/inaction that we are ok with human slavery.

You still have the story wrong, Frontline did a four part one hour series on the global financial collapse looking into its origins and causes. The (still) unregulated credit default swaps by banks, especially the double-dealing against their very own clients and used car-salesman tactics on unsuspecting public, private and governmental.

Also, in one telling segment about Obama, with Bush and his economic advisers briefing Obama & McCain on the unraveling financial crisis, Obama was the prepared and informed candidate while McCain was a deer caught in the headlights fumbling through his cue cards completely unprepared or uninformed. McCain would have driven the economy over a cliff if elected, totally clueless.

The part that disappointed me about Obama was when a had a chance to force a "hair cut" on the banks, unfortunately he took Geithner's advice and deferred. Opportunity missed.

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Bob
05-03-2012, 04:08 PM
I can completely see the logic in lowering taxes but increasing income. I can see the logic in raising taxes and decreasing income as the inverse, as well. Ultimately, all that tells us is there is multiple factors at play here and we just have to figure out something that works. What it also tells us is anyone that says "OMG, the USA was the bomb until Reagan lowered taxes" is being overly simplistic and dismissing all the alternative factors that could have been at play.

My biggest issue, though, is just that as long as these ideologies aren't implemented, we can't prove that they're good or not. I think raising taxes on corporations will push more jobs offshore. People say that's not true. That leaves us at a standstill. The only way to resolve that is to raise the taxes and see if it pushes them offshore.

The drawback being there's so many people that know with absolute certainty that they have the answer, we could spend the next 5 lifetimes trying everyone's ideas and have a really chaotic government to show for it. If only we had the state testing ground concept to work with...

On the taxing business thing, to me its common sense -- they want to make money,. if they cant they leave. We have a high standard of living and wages -- why tack on another reason for businesses to go elsewhere?