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DomCasual
05-03-2012, 09:43 AM
I don't think the family has a choice... unless the medical examiner forgoes an autopsy.

Really? I can't imagine Super Duper Concussion Bummers (I didn't want to look up the real name) is something they would test for on a regular suicide, is it? Don't they just look for gunshot residue on the hands, run toxicology, etc? In other words, aren't they really just trying to prove suicide, rather than actually trying to find the cause of the suicide?

I think they guys they've diagnosed with Super Duper Concussion Bummers have actually donated their brains to the guys doing the study.

razorwire77
05-03-2012, 09:48 AM
Unfortunately I feel like football is on a slow roll downhill. If this turns out to be damage caused by the game it's gonna roll a lot faster.

That's exactly the way I see it too. This is going to speed up the flag footballfication of the league by at least a few years. Goodbye kickoffs, good bye punt returns, and my guess is that eventually every turnover (INT's and fumbles) will be automatically whistled dead.

Junior Seau isn't some 1964 Detroit Lion backup safety. His story is going to be plastered over every E60, Real Sports, and every other documentary dealing with the issue. Whether his decision to kill himself was affected by head trauma or not it doesn't really matter. That's how the media is going to spin it. And as such Goodell will take drastic steps to avoid the PR backlash.

Dr. Broncenstein
05-03-2012, 09:50 AM
Really? I can't imagine Super Duper Concussion Bummers (I didn't want to look up the real name) is something they would test for on a regular suicide, is it? Don't they just look for gunshot residue on the hands, run toxicology, etc? In other words, aren't they really just trying to prove suicide, rather than actually trying to find the cause of the suicide?

I think they guys they've diagnosed with Super Duper Concussion Bummers have actually donated their brains to the guys doing the study.

They examine the brain as a standard part of an autopsy. And by examine, I mean cut off the top of the skull, remove the brain, look at it, chop up the brain, and look at it again under magnification.

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 09:51 AM
They examine the brain as a standard part of an autopsy. And by examine, I mean cut off the top of the skull, remove the brain, look at it, chop up the brain, and look at it again under magnification.

Don't even act like you know what they do. Who do you think you are? Some kind of doctor?

I've watched CSI. I know very well what they do with the ****ing brain in an autopsy.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Am I missing something?

Was there some indication Junior had brain damage from football? Or is this all still speculation?

DarkHorse
05-03-2012, 09:59 AM
Speculation as far as I know, just the similarity between Duerson and now Seau.

BroncoBen
05-03-2012, 10:01 AM
Am I missing something?

Was there some indication Junior had brain damage from football? Or is this all still speculation?

It's speculation... Seau was going to leave his brain for a brain study, could be why he didn't shoot himself in the head.

Now did he have brain damage ? who knows.. but I think he did have suicidal tendencies, didn't he drive a car over a cliff a couple of times?

houghtam
05-03-2012, 10:02 AM
Complete and total speculation, but since we're not a news organization I don't feel like prefacing every other word with "allegedly" when it's understood the facts aren't yet known (and may never be known, depending on how any ensuing investigation goes), but are very similar to the Duerson case.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-03-2012, 10:18 AM
It's speculation... Seau was going to leave his brain for a brain study, could be why he didn't shoot himself in the head.

Now did he have brain damage ? who knows.. but I think he did have suicidal tendencies, didn't he drive a car over a cliff a couple of times?

He did, once, and he didn't go off the cliff. He rolled his jeep and nearly went over, but didn't. He denied that it was a suicide attempt, said he'd just lost control of the vehicle.

So.

manchambo
05-03-2012, 10:26 AM
I think you are going to have a hard time proving that the NFL was aware of the fact the beating the players took during that time would have this effect on the players.

Well you wouldn't have to prove that they should have foreseen this specific outcome. You would just have to prove that they should have foreseen it would harm them. If I hit someone with my car it doesn't matter if they have brittle bones and suffer all kinds of unexpected fractures, or if they have diabetes, develop gangrene and have amputations--in any case, I'm responsible for the damages caused by my negligence.

Dr. Broncenstein
05-03-2012, 10:32 AM
One clue that football might be harmful to the brain: the player must strap on a protective shell to keep the brain (at least in the sort term) functional enough to play the game.

Meck77
05-03-2012, 10:37 AM
I was fully aware of your sarcasm. And as a civil defense lawyer I didn't really need a dictionary to know what negligence is. I was merely pointing out (apparently too subtly to effectively communicate with you) that (i) your sarcasm was essentially a straw man argument because no one knows for sure at this point what nfl knew or did so it is of course not clear whether nfl was negligent-that's what discovery is for and (ii) it is certainly possible that the nfl was, contrary to your sarcastic implication, negligent with respect to this issue-it certainly wouldn't be the first time a large organization ignored health issues in the name of profits (in fact that sort of behavior will put my kids through college).

Manchambo....Did you ever hurt yourself in 4th grade playing tackle football with the boys at recess? If not perhaps maybe your mom warned you that playing tackle football could hurt you? Or do you need a lawyer to explain that to you?

DBroncos4life
05-03-2012, 10:38 AM
Well you wouldn't have to prove that they should have foreseen this specific outcome. You would just have to prove that they should have foreseen it would harm them. If I hit someone with my car it doesn't matter if they have brittle bones and suffer all kinds of unexpected fractures, or if they have diabetes, develop gangrene and have amputations--in any case, I'm responsible for the damages caused by my negligence.

How would they have known?

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 10:39 AM
One clue that football might be harmful to the brain: the player must strap on a protective shell to keep the brain (at least in the sort term) functional enough to play the game.

Seriously. I played football in high school. My son, it turns out, is going to be way too small - especially for the high school he'll start attending next year. I have no regrets. I've had four knee surgeries (two ACL replacements, and two minor clean-up jobs). And this head stuff is just scary. It just isn't worth it, IMO. If he had the size and the desire, I would have a hard decision to make. Fortunately, he has neither.

houghtam
05-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Well you wouldn't have to prove that they should have foreseen this specific outcome. You would just have to prove that they should have foreseen it would harm them. If I hit someone with my car it doesn't matter if they have brittle bones and suffer all kinds of unexpected fractures, or if they have diabetes, develop gangrene and have amputations--in any case, I'm responsible for the damages caused by my negligence.

This is a very interesting argument, and I'm sure that will be one of the things that will come out in the trial. If it is somehow the case where certain types of players are predisposed to this type of injury, orsomething along those lines, I could see where the NFL could be held liable.

I would also like to remind everyone once again that the case is NOT that the players didn't know what they were getting into, it is simply claiming that the NFL withheld information that they had as early as the 1920's that would affect how they chose to protect the players. Even something as simple as signing a uniform deal that favored a cheaper helmet over a more protective helmet may end up screwing over the NFL in this case.

vancejohnson82
05-03-2012, 10:39 AM
I'm not buying the head trauma thing...what's the percentage of people that have had head trauma, albeit through a car accident or otherwise, who have committed suicide?

probably very low....sad story but the link between damage done by football and his cause of death is weak IMO

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm not buying the head trauma thing...what's the percentage of people that have had head trauma, albeit through a car accident or otherwise, who have committed suicide?

probably very low....sad story but the link between damage done by football and his cause of death is weak IMO

I don't think it's head trauma. I think it's repeated head trauma.

houghtam
05-03-2012, 10:51 AM
I'm not buying the head trauma thing...what's the percentage of people that have had head trauma, albeit through a car accident or otherwise, who have committed suicide?

probably very low....sad story but the link between damage done by football and his cause of death is weak IMO

Not sure if you saw in the other thread about this a few weeks back, but someone posted a link which reported that the suicide rate for players with this condition is like 8 times higher than that of the general population.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 10:52 AM
This is going to sound ghey, so I might need some DA backup from Bronco Steve

But did anyone watch The Artist? Celebrities getting suicidal past their heyday is so common it's cliche.

It's a tough adjustment. I'm not saying it couldn't be brain injury. But it's not ALWAYS brain injury. It's a common reaction to any abrupt (and probably unwanted) change in lifestyle.

These guys lived and dreamed football probably since they were little kids... as long as they can remember. Then overnight, what they thought was their entire reason for living is gone.

I don't envy that moment for any of those guys.

vancejohnson82
05-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Not sure if you saw in the other thread about this a few weeks back, but someone posted a link which reported that the suicide rate for players with this condition is like 8 times higher than that of the general population.

I did not see that....can you link me up?

I don't know much about head trauma, stats, etc....so I won't pretend to be an authority

what exactly is "the condition?" Also, does anyone find it strange that there was reported violence in the house and he shot himself in the chest?

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 11:06 AM
This is going to sound ghey, so I might need some DA backup from Bronco Steve

But did anyone watch The Artist? Celebrities getting suicidal past their heyday is so common it's cliche.

It's a tough adjustment. I'm not saying it couldn't be brain injury. But it's not ALWAYS brain injury. It's a common reaction to any abrupt (and probably unwanted) change in lifestyle.

These guys lived and dreamed football probably since they were little kids... as long as they can remember. Then overnight, what they thought was their entire reason for living is gone.

I don't envy that moment for any of those guys.

It's a fair point. We have a handful of kids in our neighborhood that are highly-recruited football players. They were little douchebags, when they were in Pop Warner. They're bigger douchebags now, in high school. I have little doubt they will be douchebags when they get older. The top-line athletes in the high school here end up going to large colleges. They are worshiped, from the time they start showing talent.

Getting used to that lifestyle for, say, 35 years, then having it largely disappear, has got to be a shock.

DarkHorse
05-03-2012, 11:09 AM
He did, once, and he didn't go off the cliff. He rolled his jeep and nearly went over, but didn't. He denied that it was a suicide attempt, said he'd just lost control of the vehicle.

So.

I could have sworn that every article i'd read about that incident said that the car fell 100'? Maybe I mis-read

In any case, 100' out in commiefornia may not be a "cliff" but here in Ohio......he drove off a cliff.

houghtam
05-03-2012, 11:09 AM
I did not see that....can you link me up?

I don't know much about head trauma, stats, etc....so I won't pretend to be an authority

what exactly is "the condition?" Also, does anyone find it strange that there was reported violence in the house and he shot himself in the chest?

On my phone at the moment...someone else might be able to provide it for you. The condition is CTE, or Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, or basically a degenerative disease caused by repeated blows to the head.

As far as the violence and what not, there were tons of conflicting reports when it first came out, including that the whole thing was false. That's why this is all speculation, at the moment. As far as I know, the only facts of the case are that Seau is dead from an apparently self-inflicted (still under investigation) gun shot wound to the chest.

manchambo
05-03-2012, 11:12 AM
Manchambo....Did you ever hurt yourself in 4th grade playing tackle football with the boys at recess? If not perhaps maybe your mom warned you that playing tackle football could hurt you? Or do you need a lawyer to explain that to you?

I had concussions playing football in high school. But this is not primarily a question about warnings. Its about actions the league took or didn't take to minimize the risk. It is possible that the league could or should have done a better job of telling players about the risks, but I don't believe that's the primary problem.

Far, far more important is the action and inaction involved in allowing players to play (and on the teams' part, at times encouraging if not forcing them to play) with concussions, too soon after concussions, or after sustaining too many concussions. As an employer I can't just say "this **** is dangerous" and absolve myself of taking any reasonable steps to minimize risks. Construction companies have to provide safety harnesses and hard hats--they can't just say "you'll get hurt bad if you fall off a building or if something falls on your head." A quick Google search indicates that it was only in 2007 that the league instituted a policy against players returning to games after being knocked unconscious (think about that for a minute--we're not talking about a mere concussion, but actual unconsciousness). Is it so crazy to suggest that the league could or should have realized it was a bad idea to put players back in the game after being knocked cold sometime before 2007? Now, I doubt that that actually happened very often (I certainly hope not) but there are many other steps that are now taken that could arguably have been taken earlier that would have better protected players against head injuries.

Shotgun Willie
05-03-2012, 11:15 AM
I'm not buying the head trauma thing...what's the percentage of people that have had head trauma, albeit through a car accident or otherwise, who have committed suicide?

probably very low....sad story but the link between damage done by football and his cause of death is weak IMO

Like Dom said, it's the "repeated" trauma that they're citing. Imagine being in said car accident not once in your life, but once or twice every day for 20-30 years (NFL career + 4 years in college + 4 years in HS + however many before that). That certainly can't do good things to your brain.

houghtam
05-03-2012, 11:15 AM
I had concussions playing football in high school. But this is not primarily a question about warnings. Its about actions the league took or didn't take to minimize the risk. It is possible that the league could or should have done a better job of telling players about the risks, but I don't believe that's the primary problem.

Far, far more important is the action and inaction involved in allowing players to play (and on the teams' part, at times encouraging if not forcing them to play) with concussions, too soon after concussions, or after sustaining too many concussions. As an employer I can't just say "this **** is dangerous" and absolve myself of taking any reasonable steps to minimize risks. Construction companies have to provide safety harnesses and hard hats--they can't just say "you'll get hurt bad if you fall off a building or if something falls on your head." A quick Google search indicates that it was only in 2007 that the league instituted a policy against players returning to games after being knocked unconscious (think about that for a minute--we're not talking about a mere concussion, but actual unconsciousness). Is it so crazy to suggest that the league could or should have realized it was a bad idea to put players back in the game after being knocked cold sometime before 2007? Now, I doubt that that actually happened very often (I certainly hope not) but there are many other steps that are now taken that could arguably have been taken earlier that would have better protected players against head injuries.

And they'll argue no one put a gun to their head putting them back out before they were ready.

DarkHorse
05-03-2012, 11:18 AM
Sue everyone.


In the new age USofA suing people for anything and everything is probably the most lucrative, best paying job there is.


And the perks are great, you never have to clock in anywhere! Sign me up :wave:


I'll probably get sued by someone for those comments

extralife
05-03-2012, 11:20 AM
This is a very interesting argument, and I'm sure that will be one of the things that will come out in the trial. If it is somehow the case where certain types of players are predisposed to this type of injury, orsomething along those lines, I could see where the NFL could be held liable.

I would also like to remind everyone once again that the case is NOT that the players didn't know what they were getting into, it is simply claiming that the NFL withheld information that they had as early as the 1920's that would affect how they chose to protect the players. Even something as simple as signing a uniform deal that favored a cheaper helmet over a more protective helmet may end up screwing over the NFL in this case.

And not just that they withheld information, but that they promoted an atmosphere in which injured players were forced to hide or ignore their injuries, or risk being left behind (ie, fired). The argument that players "signed up for this" is laughably juvenile in about a hundred ways, but this might be the most cogent one. The NFL is a workplace, just like the workplace of the people making these claims. If your boss forced you to work while injured and placed you in a position that would exacerbate those injuries with the implication that you would be fired if you did not cooperate, something tells me you would not take kindly to the claim that your employment was voluntary, and that if you didn't like it you could simply find another job. Luckily, the federal government doesn't take kindly to those claims either.

Tombstone RJ
05-03-2012, 11:24 AM
If Seau committed suiced I find it far more likely he did this because he is broke financially, and probably in significant debt. I find it much more likely that he killed himself for financial reasons (life insurance) in order to provide money to his family.

I'm just speculating on this of course.

Fact is, Jr. Seau may have suffered from depression his whole life but covered it up with playing the game he loved and making a lot of money playing it. Once his playing career was over and his income dried up his depression manifested itself and his personal relationships and personal life suffered.

Again, pure speculaton on my part.

Goobzilla
05-03-2012, 11:27 AM
Again, pure speculaton on my part.

This is the Mane, we're powered by speculation ^5

razorwire77
05-03-2012, 11:53 AM
If Seau committed suiced I find it far more likely he did this because he is broke financially, and probably in significant debt. I find it much more likely that he killed himself for financial reasons (life insurance) in order to provide money to his family.

I'm just speculating on this of course.

Fact is, Jr. Seau may have suffered from depression his whole life but covered it up with playing the game he loved and making a lot of money playing it. Once his playing career was over and his income dried up his depression manifested itself and his personal relationships and personal life suffered.

Again, pure speculaton on my part.

And that's what makes the "OMG he got concusionez so he kiled himself" argument overly simplistic. It probably contributed, but so could prescription drugs, street drugs, effects of performance enhancing drugs, alcohol, the social factors (loss of wealth, social status etc.), and the hereditary factors, in addition to the other factors you mentioned. But I guarantee 90 percent of the stories we will get from this case will be of the overly simplistic "OMG he got concusionez so he kiled himself"

Garcia Bronco
05-03-2012, 11:58 AM
I'm not buying the head trauma thing...what's the percentage of people that have had head trauma, albeit through a car accident or otherwise, who have committed suicide?

probably very low....sad story but the link between damage done by football and his cause of death is weak IMO

Either way...they won't be able to prove it from this one incident.

alkemical
05-03-2012, 12:07 PM
What about people who get head injuries and can speak foreign languages, etc?

Bronco Yoda
05-03-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm suing you all for this thread.... and yes, TJ made me read all of this through
mind manipulation tricks.

extralife
05-03-2012, 12:26 PM
And that's what makes the "OMG he got concusionez so he kiled himself" argument overly simplistic. It probably contributed, but so could prescription drugs, street drugs, effects of performance enhancing drugs, alcohol, the social factors (loss of wealth, social status etc.), and the hereditary factors, in addition to the other factors you mentioned. But I guarantee 90 percent of the stories we will get from this case will be of the overly simplistic "OMG he got concusionez so he kiled himself"

as opposed to overly simplistic "he missed football" or "moneylol" readings of things? or immediate "it's his fault" statements meant to protect football? <i>all</i> of this is reductive. that's what happens when you aren't a professional and you don't know the guy. any conclusions you draw which use this event as a cipher are necessarily removed from the event. this is all an occasion for asserting A over B, even (as I said earlier, <i>especially</i>) when A and B are "conclusions" on suicide itself. this is the nadir of our social discourse; actions and events are reduced, abstracted, replaced in the service of talking points meant to generate and protect social identity. it is not only not surprising that this thread went from "an ex-NFL player killed himself" to an argument about litigation and finance, it was inevitable. draw your own conclusions about our priorities and influences.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 12:38 PM
as opposed to overly simplistic "he missed football" or "moneylol" readings of things? or immediate "it's his fault" statements meant to protect football? <i>all</i> of this is reductive. that's what happens when you aren't a professional and you don't know the guy. any conclusions you draw which use this event as a cipher are necessarily removed from the event. this is all an occasion for asserting A over B, even (as I said earlier, <i>especially</i>) when A and B are "conclusions" on suicide itself. this is the nadir of our social discourse; actions and events are reduced, abstracted, replaced in the service of talking points meant to generate and protect social identity. it is not only not surprising that this thread went from "an ex-NFL player killed himself" to an argument about litigation and finance, it was inevitable. draw your own conclusions about our priorities and influences.

Anytime someone starts quoting stats like "8 times more likely than the general population" you have to start drawing other competing conclusions. Because the lifestyle of the typical NFL player is far different from the average experience. And a lot of that has nothing to do with what they did on the field.

Which leads you to the conclusion that comparisons to the general population are pretty useless for these guys. Unless we want to start drawing conclusions like "Football causes you to be 15 times more likely to father 10 babies in 12 states." :)

DBroncos4life
05-03-2012, 12:51 PM
Maybe the NFL needs some kind of senior league to give players something to do after they retire.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 01:03 PM
Maybe the NFL needs some kind of senior league to give players something to do after they retire.

Like a football version of Baseketball or something.

manchambo
05-03-2012, 01:22 PM
Anytime someone starts quoting stats like "8 times more likely than the general population" you have to start drawing other competing conclusions. Because the lifestyle of the typical NFL player is far different from the average experience. And a lot of that has nothing to do with what they did on the field.

Which leads you to the conclusion that comparisons to the general population are pretty useless for these guys. Unless we want to start drawing conclusions like "Football causes you to be 15 times more likely to father 10 babies in 12 states." :)

I would think that most of the salient differences between NFL players and the general population would be differences known to be protective against suicide (financial stability, family, success and self esteem, supportive social networks, etc.). Not that everything is perfect for them, but they do have a lot going for them. There may be a higher incidence of substance abuse, which would be associated with higher suicide risk but I'm having a hard time thinking of any other "NFL lifestyle" elements that would confer increased suicide risk. On the whole, I would expect NFL players to be at lower suicide risk than the general population.

So, if there really is an 8-times increased risk of suicide in some group of ex players that tells me there is something going on. And of course there is very high biological plausibility to a connection between head trauma and depression/suicide.

As for having lots of kids by lots of mothers, there certainly is correlation, but not causation, between being in the NFL and having those kids. Being in the NFL makes lots of women want to **** you. ****ing lots of women causes lots of babies (if you're irresponsible). So the cause of the kids is ****ing lots of women and irresponsibility, not the NFL.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 01:31 PM
I would think that most of the salient differences between NFL players and the general population would be differences known to be protective against suicide (financial stability, family, success and self esteem, supportive social networks, etc.). Not that everything is perfect for them, but they do have a lot going for them. There may be a higher incidence of substance abuse, which would be associated with higher suicide risk but I'm having a hard time thinking of any other "NFL lifestyle" elements that would confer increased suicide risk. On the whole, I would expect NFL players to be at lower suicide risk than the general population.

So, if there really is an 8-times increased risk of suicide in some group of ex players that tells me there is something going on. And of course there is very high biological plausibility to a connection between head trauma and depression/suicide.

As for having lots of kids by lots of mothers, there certainly is correlation, but not causation, between being in the NFL and having those kids. Being in the NFL makes lots of women want to **** you. ****ing lots of women causes lots of babies (if you're irresponsible). So the cause of the kids is ****ing lots of women and irresponsibility, not the NFL.

It was kind of a joke, but not completely. The having lots of women thing is just another example of how the lifestyle all comes crashing down. Even if they're smart enough not to partake, deep down they get a feeling that the world is at their feet. Then all the sudden it isn't.

And wealth and stability is one thing. But I'm not sure you can use that to describe your average NFL career. Earning millions in a very short timespan, and then nothing afterwards has proven to be a very difficult river to navigate for even very successful NFL players. By some accounts, 80% of players are having financial trouble within just a few years after retirement.

bombay
05-03-2012, 02:07 PM
This is unreal.

Seau is the 8th member of the '94 Chargers Super Bowl team to pass away.


The way the guys from that team have died could be a sports version of "Final Destination".

Rodney Culver died in the ValuJet airliner crash in the Everglades.

David Griggs died in a car wreck.

Lew Bush and Shawn Lee both died of heart attacks.

Chris Mims became a shut-in due to weight and mental problems and was found dead in his bathroom a few years ago, his weight estimated at 455 pounds. Death obviously a complication of that obesity.

Curtis Whitley was a methamphetamine addict who died of a drug overdose. (Whitley's brain was one that was studied and found to bear the hallmarks of CTE.)

Doug Miller was camping with friends and got struck not once, but twice, by lightning.

Garcia Bronco
05-03-2012, 02:27 PM
Curtis Whitley was a methamphetamine addict who died of a drug overdose. (Whitley's brain was one that was studied and found to bear the hallmarks of CTE.)



the meth addicition seems like it would be a confounding variable.

bombay
05-03-2012, 02:35 PM
the meth addicition seems like it would be a confounding variable.

I have no idea what a 'confounding variable' is. If you mean contributing, the drugs are what killed him. A subsequent autopsy showed symptoms of CTE.

Bronco Yoda
05-03-2012, 02:39 PM
the 1994 Chargers LB's

Doug Miller
Lewis Bush
Junior Seau
Dennis gibson

If I were Gibson, I might be seeking out a witch doctor, voodoo priest or something... just saying.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-03-2012, 05:01 PM
If Seau committed suiced I find it far more likely he did this because he is broke financially, and probably in significant debt. I find it much more likely that he killed himself for financial reasons (life insurance) in order to provide money to his family.

I'm just speculating on this of course.

Fact is, Jr. Seau may have suffered from depression his whole life but covered it up with playing the game he loved and making a lot of money playing it. Once his playing career was over and his income dried up his depression manifested itself and his personal relationships and personal life suffered.

Again, pure speculaton on my part.

Monetarily, he was doing just fine. Seau's Steakhouse in San Diego does brisk business, and he gave lots of time and money to his foundation.

It's more likely that he was very depressed about his divorce than money.

But then, those two tend to be intertwined.

It's going to be interesting to see what they find when they look at his brains. His sweet, delicious brains.

Chris
05-03-2012, 05:50 PM
If Seau committed suiced I find it far more likely he did this because he is broke financially, and probably in significant debt. I find it much more likely that he killed himself for financial reasons (life insurance) in order to provide money to his family.

I'm just speculating on this of course.

Fact is, Jr. Seau may have suffered from depression his whole life but covered it up with playing the game he loved and making a lot of money playing it. Once his playing career was over and his income dried up his depression manifested itself and his personal relationships and personal life suffered.

Again, pure speculaton on my part.

Life insurance is waived when the insured person commits suicide.

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 05:52 PM
Life insurance is waived when the insured person commits suicide.

Actually, I think it depends on the insurance, and how long you've been on it.

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Actually, I think it depends on the insurance, and how long you've been on it.

I hate to respond to myself; but the more I think about this, the more I know it's right. If you have your policy for two years, it'll pay out - even if you kill yourself.

Meck77
05-03-2012, 05:58 PM
Hmm..Doms talking to himself. You doing ok buddy? ;)

The more I think about this it seems less and less like a Duerson story which is equally tragic. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-02-26/sports/ct-spt-0227-dave-duerson-final-days--20110226_1_alicia-duerson-ocean-one-divorce

People around Duerson knew he was suffering. Nobody seems to have come forward with any explanation as to why Seau did it. If seau was making a statement about his life in the NFL by shooting himself in the chest one simple note like Duerson left would have cleared that up.

I suspect that more information will come out in the coming days if not weeks.

DomCasual
05-03-2012, 06:07 PM
Hmm..Doms talking to himself. You doing ok buddy? ;)

The more I think about this it seems less and less like a Duerson story which is equally tragic. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-02-26/sports/ct-spt-0227-dave-duerson-final-days--20110226_1_alicia-duerson-ocean-one-divorce

People around Duerson knew he was suffering. Nobody seems to have come forward with any explanation as to why Seau did it. If seau was making a statement about his life in the NFL by shooting himself in the chest one simple note like Duerson left would have cleared that up.

I suspect that more information will come out in the coming days if not weeks.

I find myself to be quite interesting, Meck.

manchambo
05-03-2012, 06:11 PM
I hate to respond to myself; but the more I think about this, the more I know it's right. If you have your policy for two years, it'll pay out - even if you kill yourself.

That's generally right. My policies had a two or three year suicide exception. But i think there are some that don't pay for suicide ever.

TonyR
05-04-2012, 09:48 AM
I posted this in another thread already but thought it was worth posting here, too.


Said (Gary) Plummer: ďIn the 1990s, I did a concussion seminar. They said a Grade 3 concussion meant you were knocked out, and a Grade 1 meant you were seeing stars after a hit, which made me burst out in laughter. As a middle linebacker in the NFL, if you donít have five of these (Grade 1 effects) each game, you were inactive the next game.

ďJunior played for 20 years. Thatís five concussions a game, easily. How many in his career then? Thatís over 1,500 concussions. I know thatís startling, but I know itís true. I had over 1,000 in my 15 years. I felt the effects of it. I felt depression going on throughout my divorce. Junior went through it with his divorce.Ē

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_20542616/former-seau-teammate-gary-plummer-he-was-crying

OrangeSe7en
05-04-2012, 10:20 AM
And they'll argue no one put a gun to their head putting them back out before they were ready.

As I understand it, there is rampant belief that the league knew the data/research but sat on their hands. The leagues position has been to deny knowlegde or question the accuracy of the research.

Saying "no one put a gun to your head" is a poor position to take in this situation. It's like saying, "if you won't let us exploit you, we'll find someone who will". That's not what you really want to do if you're the league.

Meck77
05-04-2012, 10:25 AM
I posted this in another thread already but thought it was worth posting here, too.


Said (Gary) Plummer: ďIn the 1990s, I did a concussion seminar. They said a Grade 3 concussion meant you were knocked out, and a Grade 1 meant you were seeing stars after a hit, which made me burst out in laughter. As a middle linebacker in the NFL, if you donít have five of these (Grade 1 effects) each game, you were inactive the next game.

ďJunior played for 20 years. Thatís five concussions a game, easily. How many in his career then? Thatís over 1,500 concussions. I know thatís startling, but I know itís true. I had over 1,000 in my 15 years. I felt the effects of it. I felt depression going on throughout my divorce. Junior went through it with his divorce.Ē

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_20542616/former-seau-teammate-gary-plummer-he-was-crying

What happened to Seau is certainly tragic but let's put this in perspective. The article talks about how difficult life is after football for players. Really? They make a million or more per year. That's more than most people make in their lifetime. Millions upon millions of people have lost their homes and jobs. That's a much more difficult situation then not being a "hometown hero anymore".

TonyR
05-04-2012, 10:33 AM
What happened to Seau is certainly tragic but let's put this in perspective. The article talks about how difficult life is after football for players. Really? They make a million or more per year. That's more than most people make in their lifetime. Millions upon millions of people have lost their homes and jobs. That's a much more difficult situation then not being a "hometown hero anymore".

^ The issue is more about the physical toll of playing the game. Most people don't get concussed hundreds of times in their line of work. I understand your point, but just because others struggle and make less money doesn't mean that a lot of football players don't have major issues as evidenced by all the suicides.

BroncoBeavis
05-04-2012, 10:39 AM
What happened to Seau is certainly tragic but let's put this in perspective. The article talks about how difficult life is after football for players. Really? They make a million or more per year. That's more than most people make in their lifetime. Millions upon millions of people have lost their homes and jobs. That's a much more difficult situation then not being a "hometown hero anymore".

So much in life is about perspective. As Dom described earlier, it's different to be humbled when you grew up like a god among men.

I'm sure if you studied the unemployed, you'd find a spike in suicide there as well. And with NFL players, they pretty much all end up unemployed in some sense of the word. And most end up broke.

People think money solves problems. Maybe it can, but not if you don't have some perspective about it.

extralife
05-04-2012, 11:29 AM
What happened to Seau is certainly tragic but let's put this in perspective. The article talks about how difficult life is after football for players. Really? They make a million or more per year. That's more than most people make in their lifetime. Millions upon millions of people have lost their homes and jobs. That's a much more difficult situation then not being a "hometown hero anymore".

I suppose they should just stuff those dollar bills up their noses and into their ears so that they eventually percolate inward and fix their brains, then.

alkemical
05-04-2012, 11:30 AM
I suppose they should just stuff those dollar bills up their noses and into their ears so that they eventually percolate inward and fix their brains, then.

I've been doing it wrong?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-04-2012, 12:35 PM
What happened to Seau is certainly tragic but let's put this in perspective. The article talks about how difficult life is after football for players. Really? They make a million or more per year. That's more than most people make in their lifetime. Millions upon millions of people have lost their homes and jobs. That's a much more difficult situation then not being a "hometown hero anymore".

They do not all make a million or more per year. First.

Second, the average career span in the NFL is, what, 4 years?

Practice squad players are hitting and getting hit too. They don't make "millions per year."

And on top of that the NFL doesn't take care of its alums the way it probably should. Healthcare is a joke.

I saw Mike Harden at a fundraiser I helped run in Steamboat about a month ago. The guy can barely walk. Hips and knees replaced. And he only played 10 years at safety, not 15 at a position like OL or DL where you're literally hitting your head on every single play.

Some of the guys at this thing just... weren't there anymore.

Miss I.
05-04-2012, 01:03 PM
I've been thinking about this and Junior dealt with the issue many people find themselves in after retiring from a career, only he was much younger and it was a much higher profile career. I read somewhere that a lot of retirees die within a few years of retiring but it is worse the younger you are when you retire. (http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/news/20051020/early-retirement-early-death)

Now Junior committed suicide so it's a bit different, but he does fall into a demographic. Not sure what the causality link might be, but he's hardly the only one who gets lost after a retirement.

Having said that I think he's a jackass for killing himself. His mother is clearly heartbroken as are other members of his family. I read the thing about Adam from the Beastie Boys fighting to live, fighting cancer and losing and it just made me think, Junior took his life for granted and tossed it back in the face of his mother and in the face of those who would've liked to have lived longer. I understand depression, I understand bleak moments, I understand that can appear unlivable, but what he did is never going to be okay, never. I hope he found peace and I hope his family will be able to come to terms with his actions and find their own peace, but it was still a selfish choice to make regardless of circumstances.

TonyR
05-04-2012, 01:15 PM
Now Junior committed suicide so it's a bit different, but he does fall into a demographic. Not sure what the causality link might be, but he's hardly the only one who gets lost after a retirement.

Beyond just retirement, CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) was very possibly a factor as well.

Miss I.
05-04-2012, 01:30 PM
Beyond just retirement, CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) was very possibly a factor as well.

Maybe it was. I have epilepsy, also a brain malfunction if you want to call it that, but I have no current plans to kill myself.

I empathize to a degree, and it is his life, his choice, but like all choices it has consequences both intended and unintended. He doesn't have to live with the choice he made, but his family does. That's the part that bothers me.

Boltjolt
05-06-2012, 05:13 PM
If Seau committed suiced I find it far more likely he did this because he is broke financially, and probably in significant debt. I find it much more likely that he killed himself for financial reasons (life insurance) in order to provide money to his family.

I'm just speculating on this of course.

Fact is, Jr. Seau may have suffered from depression his whole life but covered it up with playing the game he loved and making a lot of money playing it. Once his playing career was over and his income dried up his depression manifested itself and his personal relationships and personal life suffered.

Again, pure speculaton on my part.

Im pretty sure you are wrong on the money situation. He was divorced for one thing and has been for a while(2002). He has 4 kids(3 w/ the ex Wife) and all but 1 are grown so it isnt like he has a bunch of little ones like Cromartie that he has to pay for.

He has a very successful restaurant in SD and has done other things like a TV series he did for a year ending in 2010 so though im not his accountant, being broke has never been a topic of issue with him that ive have ever heard.

Im going to go with too many blows to the head and the effects of it.

houghtam
05-06-2012, 11:56 PM
Maybe it was. I have epilepsy, also a brain malfunction if you want to call it that, but I have no current plans to kill myself.

I empathize to a degree, and it is his life, his choice, but like all choices it has consequences both intended and unintended. He doesn't have to live with the choice he made, but his family does. That's the part that bothers me.

They are currently investigating the links between CTE and dementia. It's not really his choice anymore, if he's not himself in the first place.

manchambo
05-07-2012, 11:07 AM
Maybe it was. I have epilepsy, also a brain malfunction if you want to call it that, but I have no current plans to kill myself.

I empathize to a degree, and it is his life, his choice, but like all choices it has consequences both intended and unintended. He doesn't have to live with the choice he made, but his family does. That's the part that bothers me.

I'm happy to hear you're doing well and I hope your epilepsy is well controlled. But I do have to note that epilepsy is associated with a marked increase in depression and suicide. I don't think researchers are totally clear whether that increase is associated with (i) the emotional impact of (particularly poorly controlled) epilepsy, (ii) some neuro-chemical disturbance associated with epilepsy that also leads to depression, or both. But it is quite possibly that epilepsy and CTE are not entirely different in this respect.

maher_tyler
05-08-2012, 12:04 PM
Figured i'd just put this here...very good read! One of the best ESPN articles i've read in quite awhile!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7904536/junior-seau-adds-tragedies-befallen-1994-san-diego-chargers-super-bowl-team

myMind
05-08-2012, 12:25 PM
I've been doing it wrong?

It's never too late to change.

alkemical
05-08-2012, 12:33 PM
It's never too late to change.

To change, or to use change instead...i'm confused. ;)

myMind
05-08-2012, 12:36 PM
To change, or to use change instead...i'm confused. ;)

Don't limit your options man.
The world is your space oyster.

alkemical
05-08-2012, 12:38 PM
Don't limit your options man.
The world is your space oyster.

I love space oysters...they're like....vagina's with presents.

TonyR
05-08-2012, 12:42 PM
Figured i'd just put this here...very good read! One of the best ESPN articles i've read in quite awhile!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7904536/junior-seau-adds-tragedies-befallen-1994-san-diego-chargers-super-bowl-team

Thanks, that was good. Thought this was a good quote:

"This notion of why he didn't seek help was real simple. He was too proud. He didn't have the mindset to seek help because all you're taught when you're playing football is to not show weakness. You have to feel like you're an invincible human being to play the game."

GreatBronco16
05-10-2012, 08:57 PM
Didn't want to start a new thread, but it appears now that E. Smith is starting to worry about his own health.

http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/05/10/12/Emmitt-Smith-worried-his-career-will-tak/msn_landing.html?blockID=726824&feedID=3742

I found this part interesting. ""It's only so much golf you can play," Smith said. "Only so many vacations you can take. Plus you are retiring at 35, for me. For some others, it may be sooner. You have to find something else to motivate you, to inspire you to get up every day to find a sense of self worth.


I'm soo sorry that you have to retire at the age of 35 with millions in the bank. Here's a thought, if you need something to keep you busy, use that college degree that was probably just handed to you, and go get a job.

I'm sorry Smith, but I'm not going to weep over someone who retires a millionaire at the grand old age of 35. You need a sense of worth? Be damn happy that you can wake up in the mornings and pretty much do whatever the hell you want to do.


Ok, that's the end of my little rant. That article just pissed me off.

DBroncos4life
05-10-2012, 09:01 PM
Didn't want to start a new thread, but it appears now that E. Smith is starting to worry about his own health.

http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/05/10/12/Emmitt-Smith-worried-his-career-will-tak/msn_landing.html?blockID=726824&feedID=3742

I found this part interesting. ""It's only so much golf you can play," Smith said. "Only so many vacations you can take. Plus you are retiring at 35, for me. For some others, it may be sooner. You have to find something else to motivate you, to inspire you to get up every day to find a sense of self worth.


I'm soo sorry that you have to retire at the age of 35 with millions in the bank. Here's a thought, if you need something to keep you busy, use that college degree that was probably just handed to you, and go get a job.

I'm sorry Smith, but I'm not going to weep over someone who retires a millionaire at the grand old age of 35. You need a sense of worth? Be damn happy that you can wake up in the mornings and pretty much do whatever the hell you want to do.


Ok, that's the end of my little rant. That article just pissed me off.
I'm telling you a senior league would work.

GreatBronco16
05-10-2012, 09:03 PM
I'm telling you a senior league would work.

So you wanna see a bunch of ex NFL players with dimentia out running around playing football? ;D I guess that could be interesting.:spit:

DBroncos4life
05-10-2012, 09:31 PM
So you wanna see a bunch of ex NFL players with dimentia out running around playing football? ;D I guess that could be interesting.:spit:

I think if it gives them purpose then yes ;D

Boltjolt
05-12-2012, 04:26 PM
Friday was a celebration of Seau's life at Qualcomm stadium and fans were invited for free to watch and listen to guest speakers about Junior.

Just wanted to say that i thought it was classy for Fox, Elway and Manning to show up and show their respects.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d8290ae65_gallery_600.jpg

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d8290adc9_gallery_600.jpg

weidner6
05-13-2012, 02:49 AM
I just want to echo what Boltjolt said, class thing for Bronco organization to do showing up like that.

Beantown Bronco
08-24-2012, 07:02 AM
No football-related damage to his brain, according to a report released this week. Interesting.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/21/autopsy-no-apparent-damage-to-seaus-brain/

Tombstone RJ
08-24-2012, 08:15 AM
If Seau committed suiced I find it far more likely he did this because he is broke financially, and probably in significant debt. I find it much more likely that he killed himself for financial reasons (life insurance) in order to provide money to his family.

I'm just speculating on this of course.

Fact is, Jr. Seau may have suffered from depression his whole life but covered it up with playing the game he loved and making a lot of money playing it. Once his playing career was over and his income dried up his depression manifested itself and his personal relationships and personal life suffered.

Again, pure speculaton on my part.

hmmm...

Boltjolt
08-26-2012, 04:27 PM
No football-related damage to his brain, according to a report released this week. Interesting.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/21/autopsy-no-apparent-damage-to-seaus-brain/

Well there will be more studies on his brain. Portions of his brain had been sent to the National Institutes of Health for further study and they are the ones that have been determining if there was damage or not. It is a more extensive study. Not that im hoping for it to come out as damaged. The outcome is sad either way.

bombay
08-26-2012, 05:08 PM
Friday was a celebration of Seau's life at Qualcomm stadium and fans were invited for free to watch and listen to guest speakers about Junior.

Just wanted to say that i thought it was classy for Fox, Elway and Manning to show up and show their respects.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d8290ae65_gallery_600.jpg

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/2012/09000d5d8290adc9_gallery_600.jpg



Very cool and classy. I'd like to think it would have gone the other way, too, with Dan Fouts and others.

cutthemdown
08-26-2012, 07:29 PM
I'm loving the different feel of the Elway/Fox era. It is night and day from the dysfunction of the previous regime.

theAPAOps5
08-26-2012, 07:36 PM
No football-related damage to his brain, according to a report released this week. Interesting.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/21/autopsy-no-apparent-damage-to-seaus-brain/

I get more studies reveal lingering effects. The brain is just so complex and he dished/received so many hits that involved his head over his career I can't see how this is feasible.