View Full Version : When Do We Stop Believing in Fairy Tales?
Rohirrim
05-02-2012, 06:37 AM
And serious analysts now argue that fiscal austerity in a depressed economy is probably self-defeating: by shrinking the economy and hurting long-term revenue, austerity probably makes the debt outlook worse rather than better.
But while the confidence fairy appears to be well and truly buried, deficit scare stories remain popular. Indeed, defenders of British policies dismiss any call for a rethinking of these policies, despite their evident failure to deliver, on the grounds that any relaxation of austerity would cause borrowing costs to soar.
So we’re now living in a world of zombie economic policies — policies that should have been killed by the evidence that all of their premises are wrong, but which keep shambling along nonetheless. And it’s anyone’s guess when this reign of error will end.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/27/opinion/krugman-death-of-a-fairy-tale.html?_r=1
This is what happens when ideology, not evidence, determines your course.
That One Guy
05-02-2012, 08:53 AM
It'd be one thing if it weren't debt we were dumping into the economy. All the debt does is makes people think the economy is different than it otherwise would be. Maybe this isn't a depressed economy we're in but the REAL economy. Maybe this is what the economy is when bubbles aren't present to boost everything.
Rather than dump fairy tale money into the economy, maybe everyone just needs to learn to live within the economy? It's easy to cry that you need more jobs, food, money, etc. but crying has never, ever, actually made any of those things.
Blart
05-02-2012, 12:07 PM
^^ more brainless ideals.
The market is not a moral arbiter, nor is it a perfect entity. It's man-made, and it can be manipulated quite well.
If austerity works so well, show us the evidence.
Here's why I support counter-cycle spending (i.e. stimulus)
1) USA from 2008
2) UK from 2010
One decided the best way to recover was through Keynesian policies, the other through massive spending cuts and budget balancing. Guess which country entered a second recession.
That One Guy
05-02-2012, 05:59 PM
^^ more brainless ideals.
The market is not a moral arbiter, nor is it a perfect entity. It's man-made, and it can be manipulated quite well.
If austerity works so well, show us the evidence.
Here's why I support counter-cycle spending (i.e. stimulus)
1) USA from 2008
2) UK from 2010
One decided the best way to recover was through Keynesian policies, the other through massive spending cuts and budget balancing. Guess which country entered a second recession.
And yet both are in pretty rough shape in terms of debt and long term competitiveness. The future or the country is more important than the current generation.
Rohirrim
05-02-2012, 06:33 PM
And yet both are in pretty rough shape in terms of debt and long term competitiveness. The future or the country is more important than the current generation.
Really? And what danger is our country in?
That One Guy
05-02-2012, 06:35 PM
Really? And what danger is our country in?
You don't think our country is at any risk due to the amount of debt we're carrying?
mhgaffney
05-02-2012, 07:47 PM
fairy tales?
You mean like...the Rohirrim...
Rohirrim
05-03-2012, 06:54 AM
fairy tales?
You mean like...the Rohirrim...
I know that is fiction. Whereas you actually believe in all the fantasies you post. Who are we going to bomb this week, Iran? China? Lithuania? To you, what is America but Darth Vader, a simplistic, comic-book villain who is all-bad, all the time. An evil for every occasion. Paranoia strikes deep...
Rohirrim
05-03-2012, 07:01 AM
You don't think our country is at any risk due to the amount of debt we're carrying?
Most of it, we owe to ourselves. Restore the tax code to pre-Reagan and we're in the black in a year. The Right Wing revolution has been a monumental failure, just like every other time corporatism and oligarchy has been tried. How long before we wake up, look at the evidence, shake it off, and move on?
Everybody should learn this in kindergarten; When we share the burden it makes us stronger as a society. When we choose every-man-for-himself, society crumbles. A five year old wouldn't have a tough time grasping that. The Right still doesn't buy it.
What did Progressivism bring us? The space program. Victory in WWII. The end of the Depression. The investments in education that led to computers, the internet, the cell phone, etc. The greatest infrastructure in history. What has the dog-eat-dog, stinginess and greediness of Right Wing politics given us? Hell, we can't even afford to fix a bridge. They're turning us into a dying empire full of greedy oligarchs trying to feed off the last vestiges of our carcass.
mhgaffney
05-03-2012, 09:50 AM
I know that is fiction. Whereas you actually believe in all the fantasies you post. Who are we going to bomb this week, Iran? China? Lithuania? To you, what is America but Darth Vader, a simplistic, comic-book villain who is all-bad, all the time. An evil for every occasion. Paranoia strikes deep...
Comic book villain? No, the reality is much worse.
I am not anti American. But I am very anti what America has become.
Our nation has gone to the dogs for several reasons. In the first place, because Americans have been brainwashed. In the second place -- and I hate to say it but I must agree with Paul Craig Roberts -- because Americans have either gone soft or they just are not very bright.
That One Guy
05-03-2012, 10:46 AM
Most of it, we owe to ourselves. Restore the tax code to pre-Reagan and we're in the black in a year. The Right Wing revolution has been a monumental failure, just like every other time corporatism and oligarchy has been tried. How long before we wake up, look at the evidence, shake it off, and move on?
Everybody should learn this in kindergarten; When we share the burden it makes us stronger as a society. When we choose every-man-for-himself, society crumbles. A five year old wouldn't have a tough time grasping that. The Right still doesn't buy it.
What did Progressivism bring us? The space program. Victory in WWII. The end of the Depression. The investments in education that led to computers, the internet, the cell phone, etc. The greatest infrastructure in history. What has the dog-eat-dog, stinginess and greediness of Right Wing politics given us? Hell, we can't even afford to fix a bridge. They're turning us into a dying empire full of greedy oligarchs trying to feed off the last vestiges of our carcass.
I can't reject your premise, I guess, but I just think you consider these things in a vacuum. Whatever the case, I still look back at '08-'10 as a failed opportunity to take a stand and show the world the way to do something. Even if it turned out the wrong way, we'd have united and recognized a mistake. Now, since we've danced the lines and the opportunity is passed, we'll never know if what you say is true and would've revolutionized the country or if it's absurdly false and would've brought us to our knees. You think the former, I think the latter, but at least we would have known. I'm left blaming everybody and nobody at the same time. The simple fact is that something has to change - either spending cut harshly or find a way to pay for it. We can't keep walking the middle of the road to our demise.
I am not anti American. But I am very anti what America has become.
Bull****.
When was America better? And why?
BroncsRule
05-03-2012, 10:56 AM
because Americans have either gone soft or they just are not very bright.
Not very bright, as in: Being duped into beliving in things like mini-nukes, or that Venus is actually a comet?
That sort of not very bright?
Arkie
05-03-2012, 11:22 AM
Counter-cycle spending only works as intended with counter-cycle saving. Austerity is not just an ideology. It's inevitable at some point with nonstop spending. (basically what we've done since 1940)
mhgaffney
05-03-2012, 11:31 AM
Not very bright, as in: Being duped into beliving in things like mini-nukes, or that Venus is actually a comet?
That sort of not very bright?
Duped into believing that Saddam was behind 9/11.
Duped into believing that Saddam had WMD.
Duped into believing that a bearded Jihadi operating out of a cave on the other side of the planet defeated the US superpower, including all 16 US intelligence agencies, and NORAD, and the Pentagon. (Didn't happen.)
Duped into believing that the world would come to an end unless we bailed out the big banks.
Duped into believing that all Palestinians are terrorists.
Etc etc.
mhgaffney
05-03-2012, 11:32 AM
BTW, I never said Venus is a comet.
BTW, I never said Venus is a comet.
You never said what Venus was, chicken****.
I started a whole thread for you and you bailed, you coward.
Requiem
05-03-2012, 12:27 PM
What is Venus, W*GS?
BroncsRule
05-03-2012, 01:48 PM
Duped into believing that Saddam was behind 9/11.
True - I can't mess with that. A disturbing percentage of Americans have bought into this.
Duped into believing that Saddam had WMD.
See above
Duped into believing that a bearded Jihadi operating out of a cave on the other side of the planet defeated the US superpower, including all 16 US intelligence agencies, and NORAD, and the Pentagon. (Didn't happen.)
Yes, it did. They got lucky. Deal with it.
Duped into believing that the world would come to an end unless we bailed out the big banks.
Agree. Survive in the marketplace or die - THAT is the American Way.
Duped into believing that all Palestinians are terrorists.
There is a lot of sympathy in the US for the plight of the Palestinian people - but like so many of the issues we face today, there is no political will to do anything about it.
Etc etc..
What is Venus, W*GS?
A planet.
gaffe is too chicken**** to admit that.
Which is really stupid.
Well, gaffe?
When was America better? And why?
Requiem
05-03-2012, 09:52 PM
I can't say I know a lot about the solar system, planets or the greater cosmos other than a few things ancient people did back in the day with that stuff, but I am very confident in saying I learned that Venus was a planet before I was like 9. I think I had Earth Science at 8.
Maybe Gaff time traveled past common sense.
chadta
05-04-2012, 03:56 AM
when i opened this thread i expected to see a picture of jesus
peacepipe
05-04-2012, 06:17 AM
I expected it to be about threads lonestar & hobo start.
chadta
05-04-2012, 06:33 PM
I expected it to be about threads lonestar & hobo start.
but nobody believes them
Missouribronc
05-04-2012, 09:19 PM
What did Progressivism bring us? The space program. Victory in WWII. The end of the Depression. The investments in education that led to computers, the internet, the cell phone, etc. The greatest infrastructure in history. What has the dog-eat-dog, stinginess and greediness of Right Wing politics given us? Hell, we can't even afford to fix a bridge. They're turning us into a dying empire full of greedy oligarchs trying to feed off the last vestiges of our carcass.
That's pretty funny.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-05-2012, 04:13 AM
That's pretty funny.
Notice you don't deny anything he said.
andre
05-05-2012, 07:09 AM
You don't think our country is at any risk due to the amount of debt we're carrying?
that's a big problem
Rohirrim
05-05-2012, 07:53 AM
That's pretty funny.
The destruction of the most successful economic system in history is funny? Odd sense of humor. Most American patriots consider it a disaster. The Tea Party ideologues seem to love it, though. They think it means freedom. In fact, it means the majority of them become serfs.
Arkie
05-05-2012, 10:06 AM
Spending money is always successful. It's the repayment that's the problem. The fairy tale is believing we can spend more each year for infinity. I'm surprised we have been able to sustain this fairy tale for 70 years. Austerity isn't a fairy tale, it's an inevitable consequence of never-ending spending.
Rohirrim
05-05-2012, 10:29 AM
Spending money is always successful. It's the repayment that's the problem. The fairy tale is believing we can spend more each year for infinity. I'm surprised we have been able to sustain this fairy tale for 70 years. Austerity isn't a fairy tale, it's an inevitable consequence of never-ending spending.
There is a difference between spending and investing.
Arkie
05-05-2012, 10:37 AM
There is a difference between spending and investing.
Investing is a problem if it continuously adds more debt each year, and some of the investments were bad from the beginning. What is our rate of return on the Department of Education? Lower test scores?
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-05-2012, 02:36 PM
^
You can thank Red Ink Ron for setting us on our current course of debt...
By shifting us from an era of steadily falling debt numbers to steadily rising ones, he seems to have created a political "new normal" - a green-light to future U.S. politicians to continue the debt binge. Don't take my word for it - this idea came straight out of the mouth of Dick Cheney (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A26402-2004Jun8?language=printer). In the jargon of public finance, Reagan shifted us from an AGV mechanism (http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=pFPHKwXro3QC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=agv+mechanism&source=bl&ots=P06IzkroNv&sig=H0b_XsfY42_D9dlaSBfik1CNbEU&hl=ja&ei=wvI_TsQcyuesB86b4Ac&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=agv%20mechanism&f=false) (balancing budgets by taxing the rich) to a Groves-Clarke mechanism (http://www.tau.ac.il/%7Espiegel/teaching/inter-micro/clarke-groves.pdf) (running deficits in order to please everybody). And since Reagan was a Republican, it seems only natural that the GOP would be more eager to embrace the new, debt-fueled politics - it was the party's new road map to "victory."(quotes mine)...and Dumbya.
Bush II's tax cuts were truly enormous - over 5% of GDP. These were passed by a Republican congress. And spending rose strongly during Bush II's tenure, on both defense (wars and homeland security are not included in the above chart), and on entitlements (Medicare Part D). As a result, debt began to rise again, hitting the low 60's in 2007 before the big crash and recession.
Again, we saw debt rising as a percent of GDP during an economic expansion under a Republican president who got most of what he wanted from Congress.
Missouribronc
05-05-2012, 11:03 PM
The destruction of the most successful economic system in history is funny? Odd sense of humor. Most American patriots consider it a disaster. The Tea Party ideologues seem to love it, though. They think it means freedom. In fact, it means the majority of them become serfs.
If you think progressivism caused the success of this country, you're an idiot.
Rohirrim
05-06-2012, 08:59 AM
If you think progressivism caused the success of this country, you're an idiot.
Yeah, it was just a coincidence that progressive economics built the largest, most successful middle class in history which mysteriously coincided with the apex of America's power, wealth and a huge burst of progress in innovation, education and productivity. It's just a coincidence. And gee, since Reagan was elected and Fox News crawled up on our shores and we took apart the progressive taxation, the regulation of corporations, banks and Wall Street, funnelled all the wealth to the already rich with massive rewriting of capital gains and estate tax laws, and installed more laissez faire corporatism across the board (including trade policies that encourage offshoring of middle class jobs), the entire nation has gone right in the ****ter (oh, except for the rich, who are now richer than any other class of rich people in human history). Why do they keep getting richer while the rest of the country suffers? Ever wonder about that? It's just a coincidence. And the last time we tried this free-for-all corporatism, we went into the Great Depression. It's all just a coincidence.
Of course, speaking of idiots, there are plenty out there who still believe that Right Wing corporatism is the way to go. Except of course, they don't call it that. They call it the "free market." What a cool name for a product! They sit drooling in front of their Fox News all day long regurgitating whatever stupidity is being spoon fed to them while studiously avoiding all evidence to the contrary of the moronic bull**** they believe in. Who needs evidence when you've got ideology? Of course, I don't have to tell you that. Speaking of idiots.
The fairy tale is that anything could ever take priority over money. The ultra-wealthy could care less whether America sinks or swims. They hang out in an international, post-state environment with peers who also could care less about their homelands. And that's fine, they can do what they want with their lives. Just don't believe that anything they do is in service of you, your country, or your beliefs anymore than the also-American, hooded figure ambling down a dark sidewalk with a clear pipe pressed against his face.
That One Guy
05-06-2012, 07:03 PM
Yeah, it was just a coincidence that progressive economics built the largest, most successful middle class in history which mysteriously coincided with the apex of America's power, wealth and a huge burst of progress in innovation, education and productivity. It's just a coincidence. And gee, since Reagan was elected and Fox News crawled up on our shores and we took apart the progressive taxation, the regulation of corporations, banks and Wall Street, funnelled all the wealth to the already rich with massive rewriting of capital gains and estate tax laws, and installed more laissez faire corporatism across the board (including trade policies that encourage offshoring of middle class jobs), the entire nation has gone right in the ****ter (oh, except for the rich, who are now richer than any other class of rich people in human history). Why do they keep getting richer while the rest of the country suffers? Ever wonder about that? It's just a coincidence. And the last time we tried this free-for-all corporatism, we went into the Great Depression. It's all just a coincidence.
Of course, speaking of idiots, there are plenty out there who still believe that Right Wing corporatism is the way to go. Except of course, they don't call it that. They call it the "free market." What a cool name for a product! They sit drooling in front of their Fox News all day long regurgitating whatever stupidity is being spoon fed to them while studiously avoiding all evidence to the contrary of the moronic bull**** they believe in. Who needs evidence when you've got ideology? Of course, I don't have to tell you that. Speaking of idiots.
Discussion with you will be fruitful so I'll just leave it at "I think you're crazy".
Arkie
05-06-2012, 08:10 PM
Another fairy tale is that the ultra rich want a free market, or that the free market is to blame. It's a fairy tale that a free market ever existed in this country in the first place. A free market is free of monopolies aided by the government starting with the railroads in the 1800's. A free market has money not monopolized by legal tender laws or by a secretive central bank since 1913. A free market doesn't have regulations written by industry leaders pushed through by lobbyists that place burdens on the smaller businesses trying to compete.
Odysseus
05-06-2012, 08:54 PM
Counter-cycle spending only works as intended with counter-cycle saving. Austerity is not just an ideology. It's inevitable at some point with nonstop spending. (basically what we've done since 1940)
The problem is developing the vocabulary so that people can see the real economic problems free of political fairy dust. We cannot do what we have been doing but their is more than one solution or set of tools to get things straight.