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Mogulseeker
05-01-2012, 08:25 PM
Funky sidearm delivery.

Very quick release, with a lot of power, though.

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TheReverend
05-01-2012, 08:37 PM
I don't think he plays like Jake at all...

Drunken.Broncoholic
05-01-2012, 08:40 PM
Matt and Kim for the soundtrack. Lol

Bronco Boy
05-01-2012, 08:43 PM
I don't understand the comparison either.

Mogulseeker
05-01-2012, 08:44 PM
Mostly just the release.

Mogulseeker
05-01-2012, 08:46 PM
**** wrong QB.

Who was the QB that had it in close and sidearmed it like Osweiler?

Archer81
05-01-2012, 08:46 PM
**** wrong QB.

Who was the QB that had it in close and sidearmed it like Osweiler?


Rivers?


:Broncos:

ColoradoDarin
05-01-2012, 08:48 PM
Reminds me of Eddie Mac when he plays...

Rabb
05-01-2012, 08:48 PM
lol

Lestat
05-01-2012, 08:50 PM
his release and delivery is funky but the ball comes out quick. you clean up the mechanics and get his release point up instead of side armed and he'll be near impossible to bat down at the LOS.

broncswin
05-01-2012, 09:12 PM
Rivers?


:Broncos:

Bingo...it is almost a shot put look like rivers, but he seems to have a longer follow through. His release is quick and he can put some zip on it. The guy really can make every throw on the field, from the video I have seen. Very excited to hopefully watch him hold a clip board for the next four plus years, while cheering on manning.

Doggcow
05-01-2012, 09:22 PM
his release and delivery is funky but the ball comes out quick. you clean up the mechanics and get his release point up instead of side armed and he'll be near impossible to bat down at the LOS.

I seem to remember us kicking someone in the ass on their way out the door for bad mechanics. Just another reason I hate this wasted pick.

BroncoMan4ever
05-01-2012, 09:38 PM
I seem to remember us kicking someone in the ass on their way out the door for bad mechanics. Just another reason I hate this wasted pick.

way too early to call it a wasted pick. it doesn't help us now, but if in 3 years Manning gets another ring and decides he is done, or injury happens and forces him out, we have a groomed guy who could potentially step in and kick some ass after learning from Elway and Manning for a few seasons. that is better training for a young QB than any other young QB could ever hope to receive. learning from a guy who was the best during his time and remains one of the best to play the game and from one of the most intelligent best prepared and quite possibly best QB ever.

WinningMatters
05-01-2012, 09:49 PM
His throwing motion has changed quite a bit since the end of last season. If you were at his pro day, granted this is without any rush etc, he does not sidearm any more. He worked with Mazzone to bring his realease point up and it is no longer a sidearm. BTW if you have watched the highlight tape, notice how almost every other ball is thrown to number 8 Gerrell Robinson. I am almost more happy to have signed GRob then drafted Brock just because I really think GRob will be a key contributor sooner rather than later.

BroncoMan4ever
05-01-2012, 09:55 PM
His throwing motion has changed quite a bit since the end of last season. If you were at his pro day, granted this is without any rush etc, he does not sidearm any more. He worked with Mazzone to bring his realease point up and it is no longer a sidearm. BTW if you have watched the highlight tape, notice how almost every other ball is thrown to number 8 Gerrell Robinson. I am almost more happy to have signed GRob then drafted Brock just because I really think GRob will be a key contributor sooner rather than later.

since when has Mazzone been the QB guru he has been made out to be this offseason? it seems like every time someone brings up a story about a QB working on his mechanics, Mazzone is mentioned as the coach teaching the player.

Tombstone RJ
05-01-2012, 09:57 PM
meh, as long as his delivery is quick, a quick release, that is key. Couple that with good footwork and he's got the potential to deliver the ball with authority. If he develops a somewhat high release it will be better for him but it's not that big of a deal because he does not really side arm his throws, he's kind of a tweener.

Broncobiv
05-01-2012, 09:58 PM
I want that #4...reminds me of Welker!

Mogulseeker
05-01-2012, 09:58 PM
since when has Mazzone been the QB guru he has been made out to be this offseason? it seems like every time someone brings up a story about a QB working on his mechanics, Mazzone is mentioned as the coach teaching the player.

He's worked on mechanical issues with Rivers in the past.

Mogulseeker
05-01-2012, 09:59 PM
meh, as long as his delivery is quick, a quick release, that is key. Couple that with good footwork and he's got the potential to deliver the ball with authority. If he develops a somewhat high release it will be better for him but it's not that big of a deal because he does not really side arm his throws, he's kind of a tweener.

It's an over-arm, but it's such a slow delivery.

BUT a slow delivery isn't as big a problem with your dan near 6'8"

Drunken.Broncoholic
05-01-2012, 10:12 PM
Long limbs mean longer throwing motion. Maybe that's why he went side arm throwing. Cuts the time down and is much quicker

Lestat
05-01-2012, 10:23 PM
I seem to remember us kicking someone in the ass on their way out the door for bad mechanics. Just another reason I hate this wasted pick.

no, those were horrible mechanics that the aforementioned someone didn't clean up nor fix and kept referencing his collegiate days instead of adjusting to the pros. the motion wasn't the main issue, it was the wind up, Osweiler's issue is the arm angle. he still gets the ball out quick.

randomtask
05-01-2012, 10:26 PM
ASU doesn't throw into the flat enough. They should probably talk to the coach about that.

Also, here are a few of his games, including what was one of his rougher performances (Boise St).

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Enjoy.

WinningMatters
05-01-2012, 10:33 PM
#4 is Aaron Phlugrad. He signed with the Eagles. His dad was the HC of Montana before he just got fired.

Doggcow
05-01-2012, 10:34 PM
Wow, in that game vs Boise State did he throw a single good ball?

Well, one that wasn't to the flat to his RB?

WinningMatters
05-01-2012, 10:34 PM
BTW Mazzone was the OC at ASU last year and that is why Brock trains with him. Brock loves Mazzone and thinks he is the best QB coach in the nation.

baja
05-01-2012, 10:44 PM
way too early to call it a wasted pick. it doesn't help us now, but if in 3 years Manning gets another ring and decides he is done, or injury happens and forces him out, we have a groomed guy who could potentially step in and kick some ass after learning from Elway and Manning for a few seasons. that is better training for a young QB than any other young QB could ever hope to receive. learning from a guy who was the best during his time and remains one of the best to play the game and from one of the most intelligent best prepared and quite possibly best QB ever.

Ya know this idea of Oz learning from Manning and Elway is flawed.

Manning has never been a mentor type and Elway is just a little busy running the Broncos and all.

The hope is Manning will take to the kid and recognizing he is on his career home stretch will have a change of heart and mentor the kid.

baja
05-01-2012, 10:45 PM
The kid is in a great situation but it's on him what he does with it.

Lestat
05-01-2012, 11:05 PM
Ya know this idea of Oz learning from Manning and Elway is flawed.

Manning has never been a mentor type and Elway is just a little busy running the Broncos and all.

The hope is Manning will take to the kid and recognizing he is on his career home stretch will have a change of heart and mentor the kid.

there's also a flaw in your theory. which is granted a sound one.
all the QB's that were his understudy in Indy were drafted in the 6th round. Peyton was the absolute man and they were just there to hold a clipboard.
this is a situation where he'll be the absolute man but the talent lever and potential of the understudy is significantly higher.

even if he just watches Manning and isn't taught personally by him he should pick up some things similar to what Rodgers did from Favre or Young did with Montana.

snowspot66
05-01-2012, 11:13 PM
meh, as long as his delivery is quick, a quick release, that is key. Couple that with good footwork and he's got the potential to deliver the ball with authority. If he develops a somewhat high release it will be better for him but it's not that big of a deal because he does not really side arm his throws, he's kind of a tweener.

He's also got a solid 4 extra inches to start with. Not too many batted balls with this kid.

baja
05-01-2012, 11:17 PM
there's also a flaw in your theory. which is granted a sound one.
all the QB's that were his understudy in Indy were drafted in the 6th round. Peyton was the absolute man and they were just there to hold a clipboard.
this is a situation where he'll be the absolute man but the talent lever and potential of the understudy is significantly higher.

even if he just watches Manning and isn't taught personally by him he should pick up some things similar to what Rodgers did from Favre or Young did with Montana.

Yes I agree that is why I said in my next post it's on Oz what he does with the opportunity. Hopefully Manning will the to the kid.

crush17
05-01-2012, 11:25 PM
Has he ever taken significant snaps under center?

Every single play in those videos is shotgun. Seems like a dude that tall might struggle with 3-5-7 step drops from under center.

razorwire77
05-01-2012, 11:31 PM
Wasn't a fan of the Brock pick, but gotta defend him in the Boise game. BSU's was getting consistent pressure rushing four and their DB's were absolutely destroying ASU's receivers. He definitely didn't have a lot of help in that game.

BroncoBeavis
05-01-2012, 11:36 PM
Has he ever taken significant snaps under center?

Every single play in those videos is shotgun. Seems like a dude that tall might struggle with 3-5-7 step drops from under center.

Seriously, I've watched every snap through at least 4 games and never seen him under center once. Goal line. Back against the wall. Doesn't matter. They ran shotgun spread every play.

Taco John
05-02-2012, 12:17 AM
I don't see it as a side arm delivery really. It's more like he's throwing a dart.

Mogulseeker
05-02-2012, 12:25 AM
I don't see it as a side arm delivery really. It's more like he's throwing a dart.

That's a much better comparison.

Agamemnon
05-02-2012, 01:11 AM
Watching those clips I see a guy with a pronounced tendency to constantly make WTF throws much like Cutler. While he has some very nice plays mixed in there, I'm honestly not very impressed with his overall game. Against sub-par Pac-12 defenses with a spread offense, a QB should always have plenty of open targets to choose from, but Osweiler just constantly forces the ball for no apparent reason. It gets really ugly at times, and unless he does a 180 in play style by the time he takes over for the Broncos, his ceiling would seem to be that of a Cutler-caliber gunslinger. And really I doubt he ever comes close to Cutler to be honest.

Hope I'm wrong. I'd really like to finally have a long-term franchise QB again. But those game clips do not excite me at all. Seems like we drafted him because of his arm and little else.

Agamemnon
05-02-2012, 01:13 AM
Seriously, I've watched every snap through at least 4 games and never seen him under center once. Goal line. Back against the wall. Doesn't matter. They ran shotgun spread every play.

This is a problem that applied to Tebow, but not Elway's hand picked golden boy. This should be clear to every Bronco fan.

Agamemnon
05-02-2012, 01:18 AM
Wow, in that game vs Boise State did he throw a single good ball?

Well, one that wasn't to the flat to his RB?

All those clips are kind of tough to watch overall. The game against Oregon seems to be the best (which is good since they are a good team), and they all have some nice plays, but really the kid is so raw it's crazy. Honestly, watching those clips, I just don't see a guy worth a 2nd rounder, unless you are drafting for arm strength and little else.

cutthemdown
05-02-2012, 01:33 AM
His arm reminds me of Rivers a little bit.

cutthemdown
05-02-2012, 01:36 AM
All those clips are kind of tough to watch overall. The game against Oregon seems to be the best (which is good since they are a good team), and they all have some nice plays, but really the kid is so raw it's crazy. Honestly, watching those clips, I just don't see a guy worth a 2nd rounder, unless you are drafting for arm strength and little else.

Pretty sure scouts had him rated 2nd to 3rd round. So if he was taken early it wasn't so early you need to make a big deal out of it. Would you rather have Russel Wilson? Foles? I just think qbs are worth a lot, they go higher then people think they should because most of them end up not playing that well. But really the pool of guys who can start in the NFL so small. Compare it to rbs where there are probably guys that could play in the NFL that don't even make it onto rosters, give up, and go do something else with life.

The kids arm looks pretty darn good.

Agamemnon
05-02-2012, 02:12 AM
Pretty sure scouts had him rated 2nd to 3rd round. So if he was taken early it wasn't so early you need to make a big deal out of it. Would you rather have Russel Wilson? Foles? I just think qbs are worth a lot, they go higher then people think they should because most of them end up not playing that well. But really the pool of guys who can start in the NFL so small. Compare it to rbs where there are probably guys that could play in the NFL that don't even make it onto rosters, give up, and go do something else with life.

The kids arm looks pretty darn good.

I'd rather we have not wasted a draft pick on a QB after just signing Manning and supposedly being intent on winning a championship before he retires. Honestly, based on what I'm seeing in the clips in this thread, I don't have a major problem with taking the guy in 2nd other than thinking we should've chosen an immediate impact player at a position of need instead.

As far as I can tell, the guy is the type of high risk/high reward prospect you see most years, where he's got all the physical ability to be a dominant passer in the NFL while being extremely mistake prone and raw in his actual play. So basically they are banking on being able to coach him up to maximize his physical abilities while minimizing his mistakes. The problem with that is right now I see no one capable of doing that on the Broncos staff (as in we have no real QB guru to maximize the kid's potential). Personally I think he has a 1 in 100 chance of becoming a truly great QB, unless he has exceptional work ethic and exceptional intelligence, which admittedly I don't know.

fontaine
05-02-2012, 05:15 AM
His throwing motion has changed quite a bit since the end of last season. If you were at his pro day, granted this is without any rush etc, he does not sidearm any more. He worked with Mazzone to bring his realease point up and it is no longer a sidearm. BTW if you have watched the highlight tape, notice how almost every other ball is thrown to number 8 Gerrell Robinson. I am almost more happy to have signed GRob then drafted Brock just because I really think GRob will be a key contributor sooner rather than later.

maybe, but Robinson has zero foot speed.

fontaine
05-02-2012, 05:30 AM
Why in the world would you want to mess with his throwing motion? The kid can make every throw in the book, throw it deep, throw to a spot where his WR is going to be including dropping the ball on target in tight coverage.

Someone said it earlier on, but you just work him under center and get this dropback timing down because he already has good pocket presence and can move around/avoid the rush while keeping his eyes downfield.

chrisp
05-02-2012, 06:18 AM
Ya know this idea of Oz learning from Manning and Elway is flawed.

Manning has never been a mentor type and Elway is just a little busy running the Broncos and all.

The hope is Manning will take to the kid and recognizing he is on his career home stretch will have a change of heart and mentor the kid.

Being great at what you do does NOT automatically make you a great teacher. That's why you don't often see the great players going on to be great coaches - sometimes being so darn good themselves they don't have the patience with lesser mortals.

So I agree that the idea of Manning mentoring Osweiler is somewhat bogus. BUT he can learn just by watching Manning - he'll have the best in the business providing him an example of what you have to do to be successful. That's the real benefit. As far as teaching him goes, that's really down to the coaching staff, not Manning or Elway, but learnign behind manning will still help him.

This pick was a painful necessity - we had to try and line up our QBOTF sowmhow, and its always going to be a crapshoot vis the draft. I'm impressed they had the guts to invest a 2nd-round pick to be honest, but only time will tell if its a good pick or not

For what its worth however, I have always felt that Elway does have the temperament tp be a good teacher - he may be able to help out a little, if he has any time (which he probably won't). Manning, I'm not so sure about.....I think he's too much of a perfectionist.

DenverBrit
05-02-2012, 06:41 AM
This was confimed by Elway during a radio interview. Basically saying that they had some concerns about his delivery, but not after they worked him out.


On if the Broncos staff has notified him of any changes they'd like to see from him:"Not really. In fact, it seemed that the coaching staff was very happy with how far I had progressed since the end of the season. I gotta give a ton of credit to Noel Mazzone for working with me the past three months and improving my delivery, improving my footwork . . . And I feel like the coaching staff in Denver was very happy with the progress that I had made."

http://deadspin.com/5906393/brock-osweiler-sitting-on-denvers-bench-is-a-quarterbacks-dream

socalorado
05-02-2012, 06:49 AM
I'd rather we have not wasted a draft pick on a QB after just signing Manning and supposedly being intent on winning a championship before he retires. Honestly, based on what I'm seeing in the clips in this thread, I don't have a major problem with taking the guy in 2nd other than thinking we should've chosen an immediate impact player at a position of need instead.

As far as I can tell, the guy is the type of high risk/high reward prospect you see most years, where he's got all the physical ability to be a dominant passer in the NFL while being extremely mistake prone and raw in his actual play. So basically they are banking on being able to coach him up to maximize his physical abilities while minimizing his mistakes. The problem with that is right now I see no one capable of doing that on the Broncos staff (as in we have no real QB guru to maximize the kid's potential). Personally I think he has a 1 in 100 chance of becoming a truly great QB, unless he has exceptional work ethic and exceptional intelligence, which admittedly I don't know.

http://forums.theganggreen.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Drek
05-02-2012, 06:50 AM
So lets tally up the score card here.

Brock Osweiler:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion

Tim Tebow:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion
- All world athlete who can run the ball with real success at the NFL level
- Won 7 of 11 regular season games last year
- Won a playoff game last year almost entirely on the merits of his arm

First dude we just spent a 2nd rounder on. Second dude we rushed out of town in exchange for a 4th.

Way to upgrade the talent on the team John.

txtebow
05-02-2012, 06:59 AM
Brock's throwing motion is almost Phillip Rivers-esque while he maintains more mobility than Rivers...

DarkHorse
05-02-2012, 07:30 AM
Release reminds me of Kyle boller

peacepipe
05-02-2012, 07:37 AM
I seem to remember us kicking someone in the ass on their way out the door for bad mechanics. Just another reason I hate this wasted pick.

it more than bad mechanics.

peacepipe
05-02-2012, 07:38 AM
So lets tally up the score card here.

Brock Osweiler:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion

Tim Tebow:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion
- All world athlete who can run the ball with real success at the NFL level
- Won 7 of 11 regular season games last year
- Won a playoff game last year almost entirely on the merits of his arm

First dude we just spent a 2nd rounder on. Second dude we rushed out of town in exchange for a 4th.

Way to upgrade the talent on the team John.

get over it,tebust is gone.

alkemical
05-02-2012, 08:34 AM
Release reminds me of Kyle boller

Interesting...

Drek
05-02-2012, 08:40 AM
Release reminds me of Kyle boller

Can he throw through the uprights from mid-field on his knees too?

get over it,tebust is gone.
Lot of people still aren't over Cutler and we've seen that he's nothing special. Jury is still out on Tebow, for all we know we just made the football equivalent of trading Babe Ruth for money to finance No No Nanette.

BroncoBeavis
05-02-2012, 08:50 AM
Brock's throwing motion is almost Phillip Rivers-esque while he maintains more mobility than Rivers...

On tape, not real impressed with the "mobility"

Some of his competition looks pretty slow, but I can't see that lumbering being good for much in the NFL. It might be an upgrade from Manning. But considering where we just came from, it's nothing worth talking about.

CEH
05-02-2012, 08:52 AM
Lot of people still aren't over Cutler and we've seen that he's nothing special. Jury is still out on Tebow, for all we know we just made the football equivalent of trading Babe Ruth for money to finance No No Nanette.

Pesonally I'm not that worried about Tebow. To me Tebow was let down by Meyers and McDaniels.

I'm more upset about Cutler being trade than Tebow.

edog24
05-02-2012, 08:52 AM
Yikes, that first video is scary to watch.

Agamemnon
05-02-2012, 02:16 PM
So lets tally up the score card here.

Brock Osweiler:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion

Tim Tebow:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion
- All world athlete who can run the ball with real success at the NFL level
- Won 7 of 11 regular season games last year
- Won a playoff game last year almost entirely on the merits of his arm

First dude we just spent a 2nd rounder on. Second dude we rushed out of town in exchange for a 4th.

Way to upgrade the talent on the team John.

But Tebow only has a decent arm while Osweiler has a cannon. It's all about the cannon. ::)

maher_tyler
05-02-2012, 03:16 PM
He had what, 15 starts at ASU?? He has a lot of learning to do.

Lestat
05-02-2012, 03:26 PM
yep, that's why every draft expert said he should have gone back to school and he would have been at least a 1st round pick if not a definite top 20.
he came out a year too early and it's to our benefit that he did, we get the potential of a franchise QB in the mid 2nd round.

if he gives it everything he has he'll be a really good NFL QB. my only worry is that he does what he did at ASU with Erickson and that will not fly with Elway or Fox.

baja
05-02-2012, 03:30 PM
yep, that's why every draft expert said he should have gone back to school and he would have been at least a 1st round pick if not a definite top 20.
he came out a year too early and it's to our benefit that he did, we get the potential of a franchise QB in the mid 2nd round.

if he gives it everything he has he'll be a really good NFL QB. my only worry is that he does what he did at ASU with Erickson and that will not fly with Elway or Fox.

What did he do?

Mogulseeker
05-02-2012, 03:40 PM
So lets tally up the score card here.

Brock Osweiler:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion

Tim Tebow:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion
- All world athlete who can run the ball with real success at the NFL level
- Won 7 of 11 regular season games last year
- Won a playoff game last year almost entirely on the merits of his arm

First dude we just spent a 2nd rounder on. Second dude we rushed out of town in exchange for a 4th.

Way to upgrade the talent on the team John.

1. Brock is not nearly as far behind in mechanics as Tebow. Brock is closer to Peyton Manning than to Tim Tebow. That's not a praise on Osweiler, it's a knock on Tebow.

2. Winning 7 of 11 games really isn't a credit to Tebow, but I'm not getting into that right now.

3. Tebow completed 10 passes against a defense that played 8 in the box. How is that winning with his arm, again?

Mogulseeker
05-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Being great at what you do does NOT automatically make you a great teacher. That's why you don't often see the great players going on to be great coaches - sometimes being so darn good themselves they don't have the patience with lesser mortals.

So I agree that the idea of Manning mentoring Osweiler is somewhat bogus. BUT he can learn just by watching Manning - he'll have the best in the business providing him an example of what you have to do to be successful. That's the real benefit. As far as teaching him goes, that's really down to the coaching staff, not Manning or Elway, but learnign behind manning will still help him.

This pick was a painful necessity - we had to try and line up our QBOTF sowmhow, and its always going to be a crapshoot vis the draft. I'm impressed they had the guts to invest a 2nd-round pick to be honest, but only time will tell if its a good pick or not

For what its worth however, I have always felt that Elway does have the temperament tp be a good teacher - he may be able to help out a little, if he has any time (which he probably won't). Manning, I'm not so sure about.....I think he's too much of a perfectionist.

I think it has much more to do with knowledge of the game. The natural gifted athletes make terrible coaches because they rely more on their skill than technique.

The players that make the best coaches are players that became good despite their athletic limitations.

fontaine
05-03-2012, 03:03 AM
Both Tebow and Osweiller are prospects and potential starting QBs in this league.

The difference is Osweiller was just drafted and Tebow is going into his third season and is still all "potential" when it comes to being any kind of pocket passer.

This isn't a knock on Tebow because I admire the guy, but he has a long ways to go in becoming a consistent pocket passer.

Drek
05-03-2012, 04:24 AM
1. Brock is not nearly as far behind in mechanics as Tebow. Brock is closer to Peyton Manning than to Tim Tebow. That's not a praise on Osweiler, it's a knock on Tebow.
By your estimation alone. We have yet to see Osweiler have a single successful pass against an NFL team.

Tebow is far from the worst QB to start a game last season, its entirely possible Osweiler will never be a worthwhile starter in the league. Therefore your statement is inherently false.

Fact is, Tim Tebow has more of the hard to find/unteachable skills than Osweiler. And I'm not talking intangibles. His pocket presence/awareness is the best of any young QB in the league. He always keeps his eyes down field regardless of the situation. His poise under pressure is already that of an experienced veteran.

People forget that for the majority of his time as a starter Tim Tebow approached passing the ball with a doctor's mindset of "first do no harm". Most rookie QBs are allowed to go out and wing it, learning how not to get picked off three times a game as they go. Tebow was asked to play it safe and as a result he turfed a lot of balls and skied a lot of balls out of bounds to make sure they couldn't be picked.

There is too much selective dissonance with Tebow where memories of him lighting up Houston in 2010 from within a traditional passing offense or him rising to the challenge in Minnesota when the defense was clearly off it's game, leading to Tebow throwing the ball like an accomplished NFL QB. Its clear the talent is there, the question is how do you get it to show up consistently. Instead of trying to find the answer that would then yield one of the most dynamic players in the NFL our front office deferred the problem and it's potential payoff to someone else.


3. Tebow completed 10 passes against a defense that played 8 in the box. How is that winning with his arm, again?
How many points did the defense give up?

How many points was Tebow directly responsible for?

So who won that game?

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 06:08 AM
By your estimation alone. We have yet to see Osweiler have a single successful pass against an NFL team.

Tebow is far from the worst QB to start a game last season, its entirely possible Osweiler will never be a worthwhile starter in the league. Therefore your statement is inherently false.

Fact is, Tim Tebow has more of the hard to find/unteachable skills than Osweiler. And I'm not talking intangibles. His pocket presence/awareness is the best of any young QB in the league. He always keeps his eyes down field regardless of the situation. His poise under pressure is already that of an experienced veteran.

People forget that for the majority of his time as a starter Tim Tebow approached passing the ball with a doctor's mindset of "first do no harm". Most rookie QBs are allowed to go out and wing it, learning how not to get picked off three times a game as they go. Tebow was asked to play it safe and as a result he turfed a lot of balls and skied a lot of balls out of bounds to make sure they couldn't be picked.

There is too much selective dissonance with Tebow where memories of him lighting up Houston in 2010 from within a traditional passing offense or him rising to the challenge in Minnesota when the defense was clearly off it's game, leading to Tebow throwing the ball like an accomplished NFL QB. Its clear the talent is there, the question is how do you get it to show up consistently. Instead of trying to find the answer that would then yield one of the most dynamic players in the NFL our front office deferred the problem and it's potential payoff to someone else.



How many points did the defense give up?

How many points was Tebow directly responsible for?

So who won that game?

Discussing Tebow with smurfette is about as likely to produce fruit as discussing the Jews with Hitler.

fontaine
05-03-2012, 06:38 AM
Fact is, Tim Tebow has more of the hard to find/unteachable skills than Osweiler. And I'm not talking intangibles. His pocket presence/awareness is the best of any young QB in the league. He always keeps his eyes down field regardless of the situation. His poise under pressure is already that of an experienced veteran.


Not consistently. Tebow has good pocket presence but he does not keep his eyes downfield under pressure consistently. He tucks the ball in, puts his head down and looks to run (which is fine) as much as still trying to pass the ball.

And yes Tebow does have a lot of natural skills but they don't necessarily equate or are relevant to being a good pocket passer (such as being a 240 lb bowling ball that can run people over).

Its clear the talent is there, the question is how do you get it to show up consistently. Instead of trying to find the answer that would then yield one of the most dynamic players in the NFL our front office deferred the problem and it's potential payoff to someone else.

That's not really true. Denver committed millions to try and find that exact answer while changing the offense to completely suit him for most of the season. When push came to shove they made a decision that it was good enough to be competitive but not good enough to win a superbowl and the rest of the league agrees since the only takers Tebow could find were offering him a backup role.

You make it sound as if Denver failed him or somehow let him down? What other team in the history of league has:

1. committed over $10 million to an option QB
2. then changed their entire base offense to suit his play
3. and gave him a chance to improve as a starter over most of the season into some kind of pocket passer?

There is no other team in the league that is ready to make that same kind of commitment to Tebow.

They're asking the same question from him that Denver asked? Can Tebow turn into at least a decent/above average pocket QB to compliment the other side of his game?

So far the answer is no.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 06:43 AM
Not consistently. Tebow has good pocket presence but he does not keep his eyes downfield under pressure consistently. He tucks the ball in, puts his head down and looks to run (which is fine) as much as still trying to pass the ball.

And yes Tebow does have a lot of natural skills but they don't necessarily equate or are relevant to being a good pocket passer (such as being a 240 lb bowling ball that can run people over).



That's not really true. Denver committed millions to try and find that exact answer while changing the offense to completely suit him for most of the season. When push came to shove they made a decision that it was good enough to be competitive but not good enough to win a superbowl and the rest of the league agrees since the only takers Tebow could find were offering him a backup role.

You make it sound as if Denver failed him or somehow let him down? What other team in the history of league has:

1. committed over $10 million to an option QB
2. then changed their entire base offense to suit his play
3. and gave him a chance to improve as a starter over most of the season into some kind of pocket passer?

There is no other team in the league that is ready to make that same kind of commitment to Tebow.

They're asking the same question from him that Denver asked? Can Tebow turn into at least a decent/above average pocket QB to compliment the other side of his game?

So far the answer is no.

Carolina. Though they were smart enough to figure out that a QB doesn't need to be a traditional pro-style pocket passer to be a successful passer in the NFL. Meanwhile McCoy and Fox fumbled about with an offense that actually made throwing even harder for Tebow. If you don't think the Broncos failed Tebow you just don't want to see it, because it's really freaking obvious.

CEH
05-03-2012, 07:01 AM
Not consistently. Tebow has good pocket presence but he does not keep his eyes downfield under pressure consistently. He tucks the ball in, puts his head down and looks to run (which is fine) as much as still trying to pass the ball.

And yes Tebow does have a lot of natural skills but they don't necessarily equate or are relevant to being a good pocket passer (such as being a 240 lb bowling ball that can run people over).



That's not really true. Denver committed millions to try and find that exact answer while changing the offense to completely suit him for most of the season. When push came to shove they made a decision that it was good enough to be competitive but not good enough to win a superbowl and the rest of the league agrees since the only takers Tebow could find were offering him a backup role.

You make it sound as if Denver failed him or somehow let him down? What other team in the history of league has:

1. committed over $10 million to an option QB
2. then changed their entire base offense to suit his play
3. and gave him a chance to improve as a starter over most of the season into some kind of pocket passer?

There is no other team in the league that is ready to make that same kind of commitment to Tebow.

They're asking the same question from him that Denver asked? Can Tebow turn into at least a decent/above average pocket QB to compliment the other side of his game?

So far the answer is no.

Trying to move on from TRT but this was a Kick ass post. Couldn't agree more. We've seen mgmt not even try to work with proven QBs( hello McD) . Most Ppl don't know but Denver had 3rd down packages installed for Quinn for the Pitts game in case Tebow and the offense went into shut down mode

CEH
05-03-2012, 07:06 AM
Carolina. Though they were smart enough to figure out that a QB doesn't need to be a traditional pro-style pocket passer to be a successful passer in the NFL. Meanwhile McCoy and Fox fumbled about with an offense that actually made throwing even harder for Tebow. If you don't think the Broncos failed Tebow you just don't want to see it, because it's really freaking obvious.

Current Carolina mgmt selected Cam. Built their whole draft and team around the #1 pick. Big differerence altleast EFX didn't pull a McD and jettison the young QB

Where are the other QB deprived teams when Tebow went up for sale. Jax felt they needed a punter in the 3rd instead of offering a 3rd for Tebow

That in a nutshell should drive home the value of Tim Tebow across the league

Kaylore
05-03-2012, 07:55 AM
I have never seen so much hand-wringing over a second round pick maybe since Alphonso Smith.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 08:05 AM
I have never seen so much hand-wringing over a second round pick maybe since Alphonso Smith.

The trades back out of the 1st didn't help, along with all the talk about "Just Look at all the Value there still is out there in the 2nd!"

The slow FA period (minus Peyton) led people to put a lot of hope in this draft. And this just gave you the impression, yet again, that our FO believes we're only one great player away from the best team in Football.

I just don't think that's an easy case to make.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 08:08 AM
Current Carolina mgmt selected Cam. Built their whole draft and team around the #1 pick. Big differerence altleast EFX didn't pull a McD and jettison the young QB

They did, they just tried to throw him to the wolves in a lost season after benching him first.

I'm pretty sure they thought he'd struggle enough (with a team who was only good enough to start 1-4 remember) to get Tebow out of everyone's system.

What happened next shocked them more than anyone.

Butterscotch Stallion
05-03-2012, 08:16 AM
Why in the world would you want to mess with his throwing motion? The kid can make every throw in the book, throw it deep, throw to a spot where his WR is going to be including dropping the ball on target in tight coverage.

Someone said it earlier on, but you just work him under center and get this dropback timing down because he already has good pocket presence and can move around/avoid the rush while keeping his eyes downfield.

Wow.just.wow.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 08:25 AM
Not consistently. Tebow has good pocket presence but he does not keep his eyes downfield under pressure consistently. He tucks the ball in, puts his head down and looks to run (which is fine) as much as still trying to pass the ball.

Same thing could've been said about Elway when he was young. Tim's shown the ABILITY to extend a play with his legs and find a throw downfield. Because he sometimes reverts to running instead is natural. But the fact that he CAN find that play means he'll get even better at it, especially as he gets enough chemistry with receivers and they start to figure out what he'll do when things break down.

Sorry, but Tim made more of those miraculous something-out-of-nothing scramble throws than any other young QB I've seen. There were some genuine Elway moments at the end of those games.

That's not really true. Denver committed millions to try and find that exact answer while changing the offense to completely suit him for most of the season. When push came to shove they made a decision that it was good enough to be competitive but not good enough to win a superbowl and the rest of the league agrees since the only takers Tebow could find were offering him a backup role.

So was dishing the #1 receiver for peanuts part of the "Good Enough to Win a Superbowl" plan?

You make it sound as if Denver failed him or somehow let him down? What other team in the history of league has:

1. committed over $10 million to an option QB
2. then changed their entire base offense to suit his play

I'd bet money that any team that invested heavily in an option QB would design an offense to suit that investment's abilities. See Panthers, Carolina


3. and gave him a chance to improve as a starter over most of the season into some kind of pocket passer?

By giving him the fewest passing attempts and most called rushing attempts than any QB in the league.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 08:27 AM
Wow.just.wow.

I know, right.

"The kid's 1st round talent that was falling to the 3rd for no good reason!!!!"

OrangeCrush2724
05-03-2012, 08:35 AM
From the video, I see he stares down his WR's too much, and doesn't really go through his progressions before going to his check down. But maybe a lot of young QB's do do that at the college level.

Butterscotch Stallion
05-03-2012, 08:39 AM
qbs can't improve. Thats what I learned here on the mane. He is a bust.

footstepsfrom#27
05-03-2012, 08:42 AM
Has he ever taken significant snaps under center?

Every single play in those videos is shotgun. Seems like a dude that tall might struggle with 3-5-7 step drops from under center.
RGIII played from the shotgun too.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 09:35 AM
RGIII played from the shotgun too.

Yep, and what are the chances that Shanny forces him under center every play?

Shanny will play more Shotgun this year to help transition him.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 10:06 AM
Yep, and what are the chances that Shanny forces him under center every play?

Shanny will play more Shotgun this year to help transition him.

Yep. RGIII is going to get the Cam Newton treatment.

Play2win
05-03-2012, 10:45 AM
So lets tally up the score card here.

Brock Osweiler:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion

Tim Tebow:
- Doesn't read defenses well
- Almost zero experience from behind center
- funky throwing motion
- worked on funky throwing motion with Noel Mazzone
- Looked much better at his pro day than in actual games with regards to funky throwing motion
- All world athlete who can run the ball with real success at the NFL level
- Won 7 of 11 regular season games last year
- Won a playoff game last year almost entirely on the merits of his arm

First dude we just spent a 2nd rounder on. Second dude we rushed out of town in exchange for a 4th.

Way to upgrade the talent on the team John.

Turkey-ball sucked. Good riddance to him.

BroncoBen
05-03-2012, 10:55 AM
his release and delivery is funky but the ball comes out quick. you clean up the mechanics and get his release point up instead of side armed and he'll be near impossible to bat down at the LOS.

Too me what is funny is that the QB coach Osweiler works with is the same one who works with Rivers and Tebow. I forget his name... Noel Mazzone ?

In fact Osweiler talked about working out with Tebow and this coach a few weeks ago.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 10:59 AM
Turkey-ball sucked. Good riddance to him.

It's going to be fun laughing at you fools if and when the kid proves you all wrong. Seriously, if people like you had been around during Elway's early years you all would've been happy if the Broncos had traded him away too. Elway utterly sucked back then.

DenverBrit
05-03-2012, 11:03 AM
It's going to be fun laughing at you fools if and when the kid proves you all wrong. Seriously, if people like you had been around during Elway's early years you all would've been happy if the Broncos had traded him away too. Elway utterly sucked back then.

Did you actually watch Elway after his rookie year??

v2micca
05-03-2012, 11:13 AM
Really wasn't thrilled with the Osweiler Pick at the time and these videos have done nothing to really convince me otherwise. Ah well, he's a late 2nd round pick that I'm more or less convinced will bust. If he doesn't, I will be pleasantly surprised. Until such time where we know what he is, I will be rooting for him, albeit, without a great deal of confidence.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Did you actually watch Elway after his rookie year??

His second season was pretty crappy statistically. And after all that's what we are talking about right? Winning games doesn't apparently mean much unless you have pretty stats.

DenverBrit
05-03-2012, 01:21 PM
His second season was pretty crappy statistically. And after all that's what we are talking about right? Winning games doesn't apparently mean much unless you have pretty stats.

Since when was a 56% completion rate and a record of 12-2 a "crappy statistic" for a starting QB?

You really are a Tebow groupie, not a Bronco fan.

OBF1
05-03-2012, 02:23 PM
WTF.... I open this thread expecting to see tour dates, new album information and maybe another bat has had its head bitten off. Talk about disappointed.


SHARON

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 02:54 PM
Tebow is far from the worst QB to start a game last season, its entirely possible Osweiler will never be a worthwhile starter in the league. Therefore your statement is inherently false.

Did you go to college? Are you familiar with the concept of logical fallacies? How is my argument "inherently" when it's based on known information?

Fact is, Tim Tebow has more of the hard to find/unteachable skills than Osweiler. And I'm not talking intangibles. His pocket presence/awareness is the best of any young QB in the league. He always keeps his eyes down field regardless of the situation. His poise under pressure is already that of an experienced veteran.

You're done, but I'll continue. Is "pocket presence" the time he just randomly did a spin move in the pocket? How bout that time he ran right into a NT? Or the time he snapped in and immediately kept backpedaling for a 20yard sack?

People forget that for the majority of his time as a starter Tim Tebow approached passing the ball with a doctor's mindset of "first do no harm". Most rookie QBs are allowed to go out and wing it, learning how not to get picked off three times a game as they go. Tebow was asked to play it safe and as a result he turfed a lot of balls and skied a lot of balls out of bounds to make sure they couldn't be picked.

Yet he still had a 2.1 INT rate... while trying specifically not throw INTs.

There is too much selective dissonance with Tebow where memories of him lighting up Houston in 2010 from within a traditional passing offense or him rising to the challenge in Minnesota when the defense was clearly off it's game, leading to Tebow throwing the ball like an accomplished NFL QB. Its clear the talent is there, the question is how do you get it to show up consistently. Instead of trying to find the answer that would then yield one of the most dynamic players in the NFL our front office deferred the problem and it's potential payoff to someone else.

Both those teams had bottom-five defenses, and the key touchdown by Tebow in the Houston game was a screen pass to Buckhalter.



How many points did the defense give up?

Are we talking long drives? Because they were playing with a shortened field because of all the three and outs.

How many points was Tebow directly responsible for?

I'll give him the Royal TD and the running TD, but that's about it though. The running TD hardly matters because I dont want a fullback at QB. I could have made that game winning pass DT was so wide open with no one covering deep.

So who won that game?

Unless I'm wrong, the Broncos won that game.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 03:00 PM
My point is that, Brock Osweiler is a measurably better prospect than Tebow. That is exactly what he is: a prospect. Prospects are never sure things, but Ozzy has a higher ceiling. His mechanics need work, but it might take Tebow ten years to train his muscle memory to be where Osweiler is today in terms of methodical passing.

In terms of athletic skill, there isn't much to compare, as Osweiler did not compete at the combine. But at his pro day, he had a slightly faster 40 time than Tebow (4.72 to 4.75). He has a visibally stronger arm than Tebow without the huge windup. People talk about how big Tebo is, weighing in a 236 - Osweiler weighed in at 242. He also has a more prototypical NFL well-rounded body type, as opposed to Tebow's top-heavy body type. Most coaches will tell you that throwing power and accuracy has as much to do with the legs as with the arm.

Osweiler is a better prospect, with a higher ceiling than Tebow, and this fact really isn't debatable.

baja
05-03-2012, 03:09 PM
My point is that, Brock Osweiler is a measurably better prospect than Tebow. That is exactly what he is: a prospect. Prospects are never sure things, but Ozzy has a higher ceiling. His mechanics need work, but it might take Tebow ten years to train his muscle memory to be where Osweiler is today in terms of methodical passing.

In terms of athletic skill, there isn't much to compare, as Osweiler did not compete at the combine. But at his pro day, he had a slightly faster 40 time than Tebow (4.72 to 4.75). He has a visibally stronger arm than Tebow without the huge windup. People talk about how big Tebo is, weighing in a 236 - Osweiler weighed in at 242. He also has a more prototypical NFL well-rounded body type, as opposed to Tebow's top-heavy body type. Most coaches will tell you that throwing power and accuracy has as much to do with the legs as with the arm.

Osweiler is a better prospect, with a higher ceiling than Tebow, and this fact really isn't debatable.

also when you lack flexibility due to being muscle bound like TT it effects you velocity and accuracy when throwing the ball. Look at all the best QBs and they are built like IT desk people.

Good post BTW Smurf.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 03:11 PM
My point is that, Brock Osweiler is a measurably better prospect than Tebow.

Really? By what measure. Just a heads up, it isn't...

Completion Percentage
Passer Efficiency Rating
Wins/Losses
TD to INT ratio
TD's per attempt
TD's in a season
INT's per attempt
INT's per season
Yards per Attempt
Strength of Schedule
Awards and Titles
Championships

The only single stat I can find where Brock beat Tebow was total passing yards in a season. And that was purely the product of an ASU offense that threw it all the time. Tebow had far higher yards per attempt every year he played than Brock did in his best year.

But if you add rushing in, even then, Tebow had more total yards in a season.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 03:14 PM
Really? By what measure. Just a heads up, it isn't...

Completion Percentage
Passer Efficiency Rating
Wins/Losses
TD to INT ratio
TD's per attempt
TD's in a season
INT's per attempt
INT's per season
Yards per Attempt
Strength of Schedule
Awards and Titles
Championships

The only single stat I can find where Brock beat Tebow was total passing yards in a season. And that was purely the product of an ASU offense that threw it all the time. Tebow had far higher yards per attempt every year he played than Brock did in his best year.

But if you add rushing in, even then, Tebow had more total yards in a season.

Read the post, lol... Athletic measures. Body type. Throwing power. Learned mechanics.

Stats are dumb because they don't account for where the player is playing and who they're playing with. If you wanna use stats: Orton was better than Tebow in almost every statistical category.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 03:14 PM
Also college stats are meaningless if they don't translate into the NFL game.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 03:17 PM
also when you lack flexibility due to being muscle bound like TT it effects you velocity and accuracy when throwing the ball. Look at all the best QBs and they are built like IT desk people.

Good post BTW Smurf.

"There are three types of athletes who I don't want to have too much upper body strength: tennis players, golfers, and NFL quarterbacks" - Brian Billick

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 03:19 PM
Read the post, lol... Athletic measures. Body type. Throwing power. Learned mechanics.

Stats are dumb because they don't account for where the player is playing and who they're playing with. If you wanna use stats: Orton was better than Tebow in almost every statistical category.

Yeah, you're right. Life's a lot easier in the SEC. Or so I'm told.

You're saying there's a "body type" measurement that establishes one QB as better than another?

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 03:23 PM
"There are three types of athletes who I don't want to have too much upper body strength: tennis players, golfers, and NFL quarterbacks" - Brian Billick

Brian Billick? Why not just ask what Brian Boitano looks for in an elite passer? LOL

And yes, I'm fully aware of the Tebow joke I just set up.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 03:24 PM
Since when was a 56% completion rate and a record of 12-2 a "crappy statistic" for a starting QB?

You really are a Tebow groupie, not a Bronco fan.

From right around the same time leading a 1-4 team to a playoff win meant a QB had no potential.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 03:27 PM
Really? By what measure. Just a heads up, it isn't...

Completion Percentage
Passer Efficiency Rating
Wins/Losses
TD to INT ratio
TD's per attempt
TD's in a season
INT's per attempt
INT's per season
Yards per Attempt
Strength of Schedule
Awards and Titles
Championships

The only single stat I can find where Brock beat Tebow was total passing yards in a season. And that was purely the product of an ASU offense that threw it all the time. Tebow had far higher yards per attempt every year he played than Brock did in his best year.

But if you add rushing in, even then, Tebow had more total yards in a season.

I don't think you understand. Tebow's college production is meaningless while Osweiler's means he's going to be a great NFL QB someday. It's really simple. :~ohyah!:

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 03:28 PM
Stats are dumb because they don't account for where the player is playing and who they're playing with.

This is a funny line. I'm going to keep it. Still trying to reconcile it with ZOMG, LOOK AT HIS COMPLETION PERCENTAGE!

Especially against a guy who averaged more yards per throw than many of his young counterparts.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 03:36 PM
also when you lack flexibility due to being muscle bound like TT it effects you velocity and accuracy when throwing the ball. Look at all the best QBs and they are built like IT desk people.

Good post BTW Smurf.

There is absolutely no actual reality behind this idea. It's just one more made up bag of bull**** people try to use to undermine Tebow. I mean the guy basically has the flexibility of a gymnast, but he's not flexible enough to throw a ball? Okay. Tebow's accuracy issues are all about inexperience and mechanics, nothing more.

oubronco
05-03-2012, 03:56 PM
http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2011/12/HOMER-BUSH-GIF-1323370404.gif

DenverBrit
05-03-2012, 04:15 PM
From right around the same time leading a 1-4 team to a playoff win meant a QB had no potential.

Lame deflection.

You knew nothing about Elway.....or the broncos when he played for them.

You're just a little Gator baby, with a disturbing Tebow crush. ::)

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 04:26 PM
This is a funny line. I'm going to keep it. Still trying to reconcile it with ZOMG, LOOK AT HIS COMPLETION PERCENTAGE!

Especially against a guy who averaged more yards per throw than many of his young counterparts.

Are you talking about Tebow?

He was ranked 28th in the league in yards per throw.

There only QB's with a worse YPT were: Painter, Bradford, McCoy, Gabbert

McCoy and Painter suck... Bradford has nothing to work with, and Gabbert was a rookie in a run-first offense.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&Submit=Go&experience=null&archive=false&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&qualified=true

baja
05-03-2012, 04:27 PM
There is absolutely no actual reality behind this idea. It's just one more made up bag of bull**** people try to use to undermine Tebow. I mean the guy basically has the flexibility of a gymnast, but he's not flexible enough to throw a ball? Okay. Tebow's accuracy issues are all about inexperience and mechanics, nothing more.

Dude you need to find a 12 step group, you are addicted to TT.

Lestat
05-03-2012, 04:32 PM
There is absolutely no actual reality behind this idea. It's just one more made up bag of bull**** people try to use to undermine Tebow. I mean the guy basically has the flexibility of a gymnast, but he's not flexible enough to throw a ball? Okay. Tebow's accuracy issues are all about inexperience and mechanics, nothing more.

there is actually some merit to what he said. this was actually pointed out by many draft people they year before Quinn came out.
they said he was too fixated on being the top guy in the weight room and keeping up with his teammates there that he was overly built and that it hampered him as a QB.

he was far less bulky in his final season at ND and it paid off.
the way Tebow plays he has to be that big because he runs like a FB when he pulls it down. but as you said, his other issues are far more important than the bulk.

Jason7730
05-03-2012, 04:42 PM
Didn't some of these guy's get the memo? Tebow was traded to the Jets. He can be reached over at GangGreen. I hope this helps.

Cito Pelon
05-03-2012, 05:37 PM
Pretty sure scouts had him rated 2nd to 3rd round. So if he was taken early it wasn't so early you need to make a big deal out of it. Would you rather have Russel Wilson? Foles? I just think qbs are worth a lot, they go higher then people think they should because most of them end up not playing that well. But really the pool of guys who can start in the NFL so small. Compare it to rbs where there are probably guys that could play in the NFL that don't even make it onto rosters, give up, and go do something else with life.

The kids arm looks pretty darn good.

This is true.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 05:44 PM
It was a deep draft for QBs, though. I still maintain that Brock would have been a top ten pick in the 2009 draft class.

Agamemnon
05-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Lame deflection.

You knew nothing about Elway.....or the broncos when he played for them.

You're just a little Gator baby, with a disturbing Tebow crush. ::)

It's not a deflection. You are using a good season for the team to say Elway had a good year when his stats were not that great, and if that's the case, so did Tebow (of the two only Tebow actually won a playoff game by the way). You people really want to have it both ways whenever it comes to Tebow and other QB's it seams. His early struggles are permanent while theirs were merely phases in their development towards greatness.

And as far as me being a Tebow fan and not a Bronco fan, you guys really need to get a new tune. If I was a Tebow fan rather than a Bronco fan I would've left this board months ago. Come on now. Use some sense.

DenverBrit
05-03-2012, 06:13 PM
It's not a deflection. You are using a good season for the team to say Elway had a good year when his stats were not that great, and if that's the case, so did Tebow (of the two only Tebow actually won a playoff game by the way). You people really want to have it both ways whenever it comes to Tebow and other QB's it seams. His early struggles are permanent while theirs were merely phases in their development towards greatness.

And as far as me being a Tebow fan and not a Bronco fan, you guys really need to get a new tune. If I was a Tebow fan rather than a Bronco fan I would've left this board months ago. Come on now. Use some sense.

You are the one who chose Elway's early years. His second year was 56% comp and 12-2 as a starter.

Seriously, trying to compare Elway with Tebow is a joke and not relevant.

But feel free to keep spinning.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 07:28 PM
You are the one who chose Elway's early years. His second year was 56% comp and 12-2 as a starter.

Seriously, trying to compare Elway with Tebow is a joke and not relevant.

But feel free to keep spinning.

This was during an age were DBs basically got away with murder, too.

Cito Pelon
05-03-2012, 09:09 PM
Did you actually watch Elway after his rookie year??

Elway was a barely adequate passer for most of his early career. Reeves had to design backside misdirection plays for Elway because the D would key on his eyes and jump the passes. Elway was a one read, no anticipation passer. His long ball sucked, no touch at all, he had one speed on his passes, and that was a fireball.

Dan Reeves and Joe Collier bailed him out so many times with a strong running game and a strong defense to cover Elway's inadequacies as a passer.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 09:14 PM
Elway was a barely adequate passer for most of his early career. Reeves had to design backside misdirection plays for Elway because the D would key on his eyes and jump the passes. Elway was a one read, no anticipation passer. His long ball sucked, no touch at all, he had one speed on his passes, and that was a fireball.

Dan Reeves and Joe Collier bailed him out so many times with a strong running game and a strong defense to cover Elway's inadequacies as a passer.

Except not really though.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 09:27 PM
Are you talking about Tebow?

He was ranked 28th in the league in yards per throw.

There only QB's with a worse YPT were: Painter, Bradford, McCoy, Gabbert

McCoy and Painter suck... Bradford has nothing to work with, and Gabbert was a rookie in a run-first offense.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&Submit=Go&experience=null&archive=false&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&qualified=true

Funny. The guy throwing to the Broncos #1 receiver as of the beginning of last year "had nothing to work with" LOL

Oh and I like how he's tied with three other guys for 26th but you just go ahead and round down to 28. S'pose that's the Broncos fan coming through.

Cito Pelon
05-03-2012, 09:32 PM
Since when was a 56% completion rate and a record of 12-2 a "crappy statistic" for a starting QB?

You really are a Tebow groupie, not a Bronco fan.

Dude, statistically for passing stats Elway was just an average QB in the league for most of his career. And Elway never in 17 years made the AP first team All-Pro, second team was the best he could do.

He was so gotdang lucky to have Dan Reeves, Mike Shanahan, Wade Philips, and Joe Collier coaching his team for him.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 09:49 PM
Funny. The guy throwing to the Broncos #1 receiver as of the beginning of last year "had nothing to work with" LOL

Oh and I like how he's tied with three other guys for 26th but you just go ahead and round down to 28. S'pose that's the Broncos fan coming through.

You said he has a good YPA... I counted up, not down... the point remains that there are only 4 QBs with a worse YPA than him. 26th, 28th, doesn't matter.

Are you seriously defending Tebow for having the "26th" best YPA in the league?

I proved you wrong and now you're nitpicking.

Mogulseeker
05-03-2012, 09:55 PM
Just thought I'd share the scouting review on Osweiler from NFL.com:

Osweiler is an intriguing early-entry prospect out of Arizona State. A good athlete for the position, Osweiler was originally signed to play basketball at Gonzaga before opting to play football at ASU. He has the arm strength to be a first-round pick but hasn't shown the consistency that is characteristic of guys who deserve first-round money.

Osweiler has a very deliberate, quick-twitched setup. He slings the ball naturally, and even though he pats the ball before throwing, his release is so compact and effective he isn't hindered. His shining asset is his arm strength; he can hit any NFL-caliber throw at this point in his career. He is a good leader and looks in control in the huddle and on the field. He has the pocket presence of a first-round pick and doesn't go down easily.

DenverBrit
05-03-2012, 09:56 PM
Dude, statistically for passing stats Elway was just an average QB in the league for most of his career. And Elway never in 17 years made the AP first team All-Pro, second team was the best he could do.

He was so gotdang lucky to have Dan Reeves, Mike Shanahan, Wade Philips, and Joe Collier coaching his team for him.

I'll take that 12-2, second year every time.

DenverBrit
05-03-2012, 09:58 PM
This was during an age were DBs basically got away with murder, too.

It sure was. "Mugging" was a play call.

BroncoBeavis
05-03-2012, 09:58 PM
You said he has a good YPA... I counted up, not down... the point remains that there are only 4 QBs with a worse YPA than him. 26th, 28th, doesn't matter.

Are you seriously defending Tebow for having the "26th" best YPA in the league?

I proved you wrong and now you're nitpicking.

I'm pretty sure I've posted that same link before. Because it puts Tebow's passing at or above the level of most first year starters in the league. Or above Sam Bradford's second season starting. Who you must believe is the worst QB in football.

Tombstone RJ
05-03-2012, 09:58 PM
anyone else think the brockinator is gonna jam the ball over the goal posts after a TD? That's the way brock rolls...

Tombstone RJ
05-03-2012, 10:02 PM
Brock. who names their kid Brock?

barryr
05-03-2012, 10:04 PM
Dude, statistically for passing stats Elway was just an average QB in the league for most of his career. And Elway never in 17 years made the AP first team All-Pro, second team was the best he could do.

He was so gotdang lucky to have Dan Reeves, Mike Shanahan, Wade Philips, and Joe Collier coaching his team for him.

It is rather hilarious how people like to claim during Elway's early career how it was so hard to have good stats as a QB because of the rules, yet Marino, Montana, and Kelly to name just a few did not seem to have troubles putting up nice stats. It had more to do with a less than friendly QB offense than anything else. And then they like to state how easy it is to play QB today with the sole purpose to rip Tebow, when a QB like Eli Manning had crappy stats to start his career, but has 2 rings now.

Tombstone RJ
05-03-2012, 10:38 PM
Joe Collier never coached Elway. He may have been the DC early in Elway's career but so what? Dan Reeves, Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan were Elway's HCs. I think Wade's first HC job was with the Broncos too.

Jason7730
05-04-2012, 01:50 AM
Imho, It was Dan Reeves who had the most to do with Elway's so-so early career stats. Reeves was great at the 3 yds. and a pile of dust play calls. Then when we were down in the 4th the chains would be taken off and the rest is history.

BroncoBeavis
05-04-2012, 06:52 AM
Imho, It was Dan Reeves who had the most to do with Elway's so-so early career stats. Reeves was great at the 3 yds. and a pile of dust play calls. Then when we were down in the 4th the chains would be taken off and the rest is history.

Yeah and honestly when else have we ever seen something like that occur? :)

BroncoInferno
05-04-2012, 06:59 AM
Elway's stats weren't really "so-so" at all if you compare him to his contemporaries. It's absurd to compare the stats of a man who began his career nearly 30 years ago with someone playing in 2011. The rules are much more favorable to the passing game and QBs in general now, and that's why guys like Andy Dalton and Cam Newton are able to step right in and put up decent numbers right away. If Elway were coming into the league today, he would not have struggled to nearly the degree he did in that earlier era and his numbers would look more impressive.

TonyR
05-04-2012, 07:14 AM
Overview: Osweiler is a close friend of Jack Elway, son of Broncos big Kahuna John Elway. In fact, Elway and Osweiler were part of a messy five-way battle for the Arizona State quarterback job before the younger Elway gave up football.

So it is not too misleading to say that Osweiler beat Elway for the starting job. And once you beat an Elway, you become an Elway. Osweiler now drives around Colorado in his adopted dad's vintage Camaro in a throwback Stanford jersey, parking in restricted areas but getting away with it because he has "Elway Immunity" from prosecution. (Editor's note: that last sentence is almost certainly not true.)

John Elway didn't draft Osweiler just to make his son feel better, of course. Osweiler is a developmental quarterback, and the Broncos are exactly the kind of team that needs a developmental quarterback. Osweiler has the arm to be an NFL starter, but his 6-foot-6 7/8 frame is more of a liability than an asset. There is such a thing as a quarterback who is too tall to start in the NFL, and Osweiler has to scrunch down to get under the limit.

Strengths: Osweiler has an excellent arm and good accuracy. He can zip the ball into tight spots in the middle of the field and has enough oomph to throw NFL out-routes. He has good timing and accuracy on out routes and slants, anticipating and releasing the ball before his receivers come out of their breaks.

Osweiler runs well for a lanky guy. Arizona State used a lot of spread-option principles, and Osweiler was not afraid to keep the ball and take a lick in the middle of the field. He is a long strider, but he occasionally showed a bit of cutting ability.

Osweiler gets high marks for his mental makeup from those who know him well, among whom we can include the Elway family.

Weaknesses: Osweiler is a long-levered quarterback, the kind that loses foot quickness and release quickness early in his career. Joe Flacco is a fine example: Flacco was fast enough to run option plays as a rookie, but he now has trouble sliding around the pocket, and when his anticipation is not precise he has a hard time getting his long arm cocked and loaded in time to throw into a tight spot.

Osweiler has several different passing deliveries. One is an odd wind-up that he used often when throwing flare passes, a staple of the Sun Devils' playbook. Osweiler coils his body and side-arms the ball, like some 1970s middle reliever. He also sometimes displays a long, looping motion when preparing to throw deep. Couple the long delivery with the already long arm, and you get a major red flag: The receiver who is open when he starts throwing may not still be open when he finishes.

Conclusion: The danger with Osweiler is that he will already have lost some mobility and twitch quickness by the time he gets to play in (ideally) 2014 or so. The Broncos could end up investing a lot of development resources in a player who simply cannot get the ball to his receivers in time.

That said, it is hard to imagine a better set of tutors than Peyton Manning and a paternal-minded John Elway. Osweiler will have a great opportunity to straighten out his mechanics and learn the finer points of his position. A step-slow catapult of a quarterback with a fine arm and Manning-Elway training is better than what most teams have at quarterback in any given year, and better than what the Broncos had last year.

NFL Comparison: Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville Jaguars

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/beyond-shutdown-50-brock-osweiler-qb-denver-broncos-180225997.html


^ I don't get the Leftwich comp. As stated in the article, isn't Flacco a better comp?

Play2win
05-04-2012, 08:25 AM
I think Flacco might be Brock's floor. Lord only knows what his ceiling could be.

TheReverend
05-04-2012, 08:34 AM
I think Flacco might be Brock's floor. Lord only knows what his ceiling could be.

Big Brock fan but GTFO

Play2win
05-04-2012, 08:56 AM
Big Brock fan but GTFO

Just going with my gut, but by the time he gets to start, I think he is going to be pretty polished. I hope he brings a good deal more than Flacco.

Smiling Assassin27
05-04-2012, 09:25 AM
Funky sidearm delivery.

Very quick release, with a lot of power, though.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/H5G6B-snaSM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I see a lot of similarity in his motion to this guy:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/53fySbq7AQI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BroncoBeavis
05-04-2012, 10:12 AM
Elway's stats weren't really "so-so" at all if you compare him to his contemporaries. It's absurd to compare the stats of a man who began his career nearly 30 years ago with someone playing in 2011. The rules are much more favorable to the passing game and QBs in general now, and that's why guys like Andy Dalton and Cam Newton are able to step right in and put up decent numbers right away. If Elway were coming into the league today, he would not have struggled to nearly the degree he did in that earlier era and his numbers would look more impressive.

Dalton's ypa was .1 higher (insignificant) than Tebow's. His TD ratio was lower. His INT rate was higher. The only thing that made Dalton's numbers better was more attempts.

Which matches what many of us were saying all along.

Butterscotch Stallion
05-04-2012, 12:03 PM
Dalton's ypa was .1 higher (insignificant) than Tebow's. His TD ratio was lower. His INT rate was higher. The only thing that made Dalton's numbers better was more attempts.

Which matches what many of us were saying all along.

I just want to say, watching you pwn people all day long has been a delight. keep it up.

Agamemnon
05-04-2012, 04:34 PM
I think Flacco might be Brock's floor. Lord only knows what his ceiling could be.

Hilarious!

razorwire77
05-04-2012, 05:54 PM
I see a lot of similarity in his motion to this guy:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/53fySbq7AQI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Motion, yes. Arm strength and speed of release, not so much.

Shananahan
05-04-2012, 06:06 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Macgregor/TebowHomer.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Macgregor/TebowHomer.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Macgregor/TebowHomer.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Macgregor/TebowHomer.gif

Cito Pelon
05-04-2012, 06:39 PM
I'll take that 12-2, second year every time.

That 1984 team gave up only 15.1 ppg on defense, 2076 rushing yds on offense, +21 TO differential, the defense got 55 turnovers with 31 INT's and 57 sacks. The defense scored 8 TD's, 4 INT return TD's, 4 fumble return TD's.

Elway was adequate, 18 TD passes, 15 INT's, 4.7 TD%, 3.9 INT%, 237 yds rushing on 56 attempts, 1 TD.

That was a well-coached, all around good team. Elway was nothing special, just adequate.

Cito Pelon
05-04-2012, 07:03 PM
Elway's stats weren't really "so-so" at all if you compare him to his contemporaries. It's absurd to compare the stats of a man who began his career nearly 30 years ago with someone playing in 2011. The rules are much more favorable to the passing game and QBs in general now, and that's why guys like Andy Dalton and Cam Newton are able to step right in and put up decent numbers right away. If Elway were coming into the league today, he would not have struggled to nearly the degree he did in that earlier era and his numbers would look more impressive.

Actually, Elway's stats WERE so-so compared to his contemporaries his first ten years in the league. See http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm . Look at the "Advanced Passing" stats.

As mentioned above, Reeves had something to do with that, not necessarily because he was retardedly and deliberately holding Elway back, but because he constantly acquired marginal WR's and zero receiving TE's. Elway had a high number of passing attempts under Reeves year after year, but he really didn't have much of a WR or TE corps to throw to. From 1993 onward, coinciding with Shannon Sharpe being on the team, Elway was more consistently at the top level of QB's.

RubberDuckie24
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
Overview: Osweiler is a close friend of Jack Elway, son of Broncos big Kahuna John Elway. In fact, Elway and Osweiler were part of a messy five-way battle for the Arizona State quarterback job before the younger Elway gave up football.

So it is not too misleading to say that Osweiler beat Elway for the starting job. And once you beat an Elway, you become an Elway. Osweiler now drives around Colorado in his adopted dad's vintage Camaro in a throwback Stanford jersey, parking in restricted areas but getting away with it because he has "Elway Immunity" from prosecution. (Editor's note: that last sentence is almost certainly not true.)

John Elway didn't draft Osweiler just to make his son feel better, of course. Osweiler is a developmental quarterback, and the Broncos are exactly the kind of team that needs a developmental quarterback. Osweiler has the arm to be an NFL starter, but his 6-foot-6 7/8 frame is more of a liability than an asset. There is such a thing as a quarterback who is too tall to start in the NFL, and Osweiler has to scrunch down to get under the limit.

Strengths: Osweiler has an excellent arm and good accuracy. He can zip the ball into tight spots in the middle of the field and has enough oomph to throw NFL out-routes. He has good timing and accuracy on out routes and slants, anticipating and releasing the ball before his receivers come out of their breaks.

Osweiler runs well for a lanky guy. Arizona State used a lot of spread-option principles, and Osweiler was not afraid to keep the ball and take a lick in the middle of the field. He is a long strider, but he occasionally showed a bit of cutting ability.

Osweiler gets high marks for his mental makeup from those who know him well, among whom we can include the Elway family.

Weaknesses: Osweiler is a long-levered quarterback, the kind that loses foot quickness and release quickness early in his career. Joe Flacco is a fine example: Flacco was fast enough to run option plays as a rookie, but he now has trouble sliding around the pocket, and when his anticipation is not precise he has a hard time getting his long arm cocked and loaded in time to throw into a tight spot.

Osweiler has several different passing deliveries. One is an odd wind-up that he used often when throwing flare passes, a staple of the Sun Devils' playbook. Osweiler coils his body and side-arms the ball, like some 1970s middle reliever. He also sometimes displays a long, looping motion when preparing to throw deep. Couple the long delivery with the already long arm, and you get a major red flag: The receiver who is open when he starts throwing may not still be open when he finishes.

Conclusion: The danger with Osweiler is that he will already have lost some mobility and twitch quickness by the time he gets to play in (ideally) 2014 or so. The Broncos could end up investing a lot of development resources in a player who simply cannot get the ball to his receivers in time.

That said, it is hard to imagine a better set of tutors than Peyton Manning and a paternal-minded John Elway. Osweiler will have a great opportunity to straighten out his mechanics and learn the finer points of his position. A step-slow catapult of a quarterback with a fine arm and Manning-Elway training is better than what most teams have at quarterback in any given year, and better than what the Broncos had last year.


Wtf, so he's going to be 24 in 2014 and he'll have lost some "mobility and twitch quickness" by then?

BS at it's finest.

barryr
05-04-2012, 08:51 PM
Actually, Elway's stats WERE so-so compared to his contemporaries his first ten years in the league. See http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm . Look at the "Advanced Passing" stats.

As mentioned above, Reeves had something to do with that, not necessarily because he was retardedly and deliberately holding Elway back, but because he constantly acquired marginal WR's and zero receiving TE's. Elway had a high number of passing attempts under Reeves year after year, but he really didn't have much of a WR or TE corps to throw to. From 1993 onward, coinciding with Shannon Sharpe being on the team, Elway was more consistently at the top level of QB's.

Elway's stats under Reeves plain stunk. His completion percentage was like around 55% and threw about the same number of TD's as picks. It wasn't until he was surrounded by better talent and a more QB friendly offense did his stats drastically improve.