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Bronco Rob
04-29-2012, 05:46 AM
John Elway dropped the ball in the Denver Broncos' NFL draft

McDaniels still around. Looks to me like Broncos executive John Elway is getting his NFL draft advice from former Denver coach Josh McDaniels.

Jim, Denver

Kiz: The Broncos didn't like anyone or anything on Day One of the NFL draft. Then, it seemed as if Denver liked everybody it drafted too much on the second day. If Elway believes Derek Wolfe of Cincinnati is better than all the defensive tackles that were on the board, I have no problem going against conventional wisdom. But taking Arizona State quarterback Brock Osweiler to collect dust behind Peyton Manning? Let's see how many plays Osweiler makes this season compared with Nebraska linebacker Lavonte David, grabbed at No. 58 by Tampa Bay before Osweiler could be fitted for a Broncos ball cap. San Diego State running back Ronnie Hillman was taken by a below-average defensive team to erase the mistake of Knowshon Moreno. Wolfe. Osweiler. Hillman. If that out-of-the-box thinking was exhibited while McDaniels was in charge, he would have been called names I can't mention.



The rest...http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_20505998/john-elway-dropped-ball-denver-broncos-draft

Drek
04-29-2012, 06:25 AM
I don't think the assessment of the players themselves is particularly fair, but yes, we did overdraft. The reasons people aren't bitching about it is because:
1. John Elway picked them.
2. We won a playoff game last year.
3. We signed Peyton Manning this off-season.

It so people are more willing to be glass half full thinkers. Doesn't change that if McDaniels had this same draft people would be calling it an object failure.

This is the cost of organizational turnover though. We obviously gave up a good amount of value so that Elway could swap Tebow for Osweiler as the QBOTF. We gave up a good amount of value to reduce the need for Moreno on this team as well. This is what happens when new guys come in and want to put their mark on the team.

CEH
04-29-2012, 06:30 AM
It is also about pure luck.

Look at what Denver's draft would have been like had a player fell just one more spot in the first and 2 more in the 2nd

Decastro
Konz

Now we are talking about a top draft for the entire NFL and we are looking at the best Oline in football


Denver did try to outFox themseleves I believe but most times the draft is more about Luck and Art than Science. The Art really kicks in after the 2nd round. Until then I bet everyones' draft boards are relatively the same

Kaylore
04-29-2012, 06:35 AM
It is also about pure luck.

Look at what Denver's draft would have been like had a player fell just one more spot in the first and 2 more in the 2nd

Decastro
Konz

Now we are talking about a top draft for the entire NFL and we are looking at the best Oline in football


Denver did try to outFox themseleves I beleive but most times the draft is more about Luck and Art than Science. The Art really kicks in after the 2nd round. Until then I bet everyones' draft boards are realatively the same

I agree with this. And if Empire Orange is to believed, at least one of those guys were targeted. It's also good to remember that regardless, most of everyone's draftees are going to fail and be out of football in a couple of years. If you manage to find three or four guys who make your football team and play well, you're doing very well.

And not at all surprised Kizla is whining about something with the Broncos.

g6matty
04-29-2012, 07:02 AM
at first glance i was pretty pissed with the first three picks. then i actually looked into the guys and saw wolfe n hillman had great production. we passed on devon still and jerel worthy -- guys who are hot and cold players for a high motor high intensity DT. maybe the talent isnt there but hard work and effort is . to fox and del rio the trade off was worth it so i trust there defensive intelligence.

osweiler pick im meh on maybe hes over drafted but in 3 years from now if he's aaron rodgers no one will be bitching.

after watching youtubes on hillman how can any1 complain about the guy . he has lots of talent broke marshal faulks records at SDSU and can contribute right away. elway was looking for "impact players" and so far wolfe and hillman give us that.

omar bolden was a top CB before his injury if he pans out it will be a steal in the draft hes a good player. they found solid depth with blake and travethon. malik jackson has great measurables and motor so hes a wonderful project DT / DE.

not the best draft this year but its a very solid one to help our teams depth greatly

Denver Brockos
04-29-2012, 07:07 AM
Kiszla will change his tune in 2 years when the Brockos are kicking some serious ass.

baja
04-29-2012, 07:21 AM
It is also about pure luck.

Look at what Denver's draft would have been like had a player fell just one more spot in the first and 2 more in the 2nd

Decastro
Konz

Now we are talking about a top draft for the entire NFL and we are looking at the best Oline in football


Denver did try to outFox themseleves I believe but most times the draft is more about Luck and Art than Science. The Art really kicks in after the 2nd round. Until then I bet everyones' draft boards are relatively the same

This is so true! Sometimes the draft just falls to you and you get your guy every round or get a great player in a position of need that falls to you. Our guy went one pick before we drafted at 25 and that set up the chain of events that became our 2012 draft. EFX really had to work at this draft.

I think Elways career will be judged early on by how Tebow and Osweller turn out.

OBF1
04-29-2012, 07:50 AM
Kiszla will change his tune in 2 years when the Brockos are kicking some serious ass.

Somewhere, some place, a village is missing its idiot.:wave:

Denver Brockos
04-29-2012, 07:53 AM
Somewhere, some place, a village is missing its idiot.:wave:

You should find your village then.

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 07:57 AM
I don't think the assessment of the players themselves is particularly fair, but yes, we did overdraft. The reasons people aren't b****ing about it is because:
1. John Elway picked them.
2. We won a playoff game last year.
3. We signed Peyton Manning this off-season.

It so people are more willing to be glass half full thinkers. Doesn't change that if McDaniels had this same draft people would be calling it an object failure.

This is the cost of organizational turnover though. We obviously gave up a good amount of value so that Elway could swap Tebow for Osweiler as the QBOTF. We gave up a good amount of value to reduce the need for Moreno on this team as well. This is what happens when new guys come in and want to put their mark on the team.

There's the added incentive that every time Kizla says something, I automatically want to be on the opposite side of the issue. Kizla is a pimp.

baja
04-29-2012, 08:00 AM
There's the added incentive that every time Kizla says something, I automatically want to be on the opposite side of the issue. Kizla is a pimp.


Nice avy The guy is chiseled like a barrel

Denver724
04-29-2012, 08:01 AM
Kiszla will change his tune in 2 years when the Brockos are kicking some serious ass.

Agreed. I love this draft.

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 08:03 AM
Nice avy The guy is chiseled like a barrel

High effort and bad attitude. That's how I like my DTs. ;D

Denver724
04-29-2012, 08:05 AM
[QUOTE=Drek;3575916]I don't think the assessment of the players themselves is particularly fair, but yes, we did overdraft.

One has to remember that most are basing "overdrafting" on the rankings of people on the net and/or TV. Who knows if this is reality. Sure these people talk to scouts and GM's, but who knows if they are feeding them the truth or if they are lies. It may be smokescreens.

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 08:12 AM
Setting draft value is a form of fortune telling. There are a lot of hits (it's kind of like Vegas setting the odds), but there are also some monumental misses (TD, Brady, Rod Smith, Cruz, etc.)

CEH
04-29-2012, 08:18 AM
I don't think the assessment of the players themselves is particularly fair, but yes, we did overdraft.

One has to remember that most are basing "overdrafting" on the rankings of people on the net and/or TV. Who knows if this is reality. Sure these people talk to scouts and GM's, but who knows if they are feeding them the truth or if they are lies. It may be smokescreens.

Where was Nick Foles graded? . Didn't Philly overdraft?

Depends how you grade. Mayock had Tannehill 87, Brock at 83, Weeden at 83 , Foles at 71 and Lindley a 6th round pick at 63

Cousin was rated higher than Foles. Probably why Wash drafted Cousin he was just too high on the board

manchambo
04-29-2012, 08:20 AM
I really don't understand the criticism of the Osweiler pick. Given the age/health/contract situation with Manning, it was absolutely imperative that the team add a developmental qb in the next couple of years. If they saw someone they liked in the late second round this year it was totally reasonable to grab him. As for him "collecting dust," behind Manning, how did it work out for Rodgers to collect dust behind an all time great qb? Obviously there's no guarantee something similar will happen here, but it's certainly a sensible long term plan.

As for Wolfe, everything I've read indicates that the "experts" were all in agreement that he was in the second tier of DTs in the draft with a few guys rated higher by small fractions of a point. I'm going to tend to give Fox and Del Rio the benefit of the doubt on their judgment that Wolfe is the best fit for the team. And I haven't seen anyone with any qualifications suggest that he was a major reach.

Hillman on the other hand does seem questionable.

Bronco Rob
04-29-2012, 08:21 AM
Fox Sports: AFC West Draft Grades

• Kansas City B+
• San Diego B
• Denver B-
• Oakland D


NFL Network: AFC West Draft Grades

• San Diego B+
• Kansas City B+
• Denver B-
• Oakland C

Crushisback
04-29-2012, 08:30 AM
Wolfe - My favorite DT behind Cox. Love the fact we moved back a bit to get him.

Osweiler - Don't like having to get a backup/QBOTF with our 2nd pick. But I understand it. Nobody wants to see Hanie if Manning gets hurt.

Hillman - I love the immediate impact this guy can make. At this point in the draft he was probably the best playmaker available.

Bolden - I think at the worst he becomes our Dime CB which aint bad for a 4th rounder. His upside is obvious and love his physical style and emotion. Could see him and Harris as out top 2 CB's in a few years.

Blake - I know we needed interior line depth and someone to compete with Walton but would have rather taken another DT here.

Jackson - I like his versatility. Very similar buid and style to Ayers, hopefully he can push Ayers to be better.

Trvathan - Good depth an ST help.

UDFA - I think we did our best work here and should make for a very competitive TC for the bottom half of our roster.

derp
04-29-2012, 08:32 AM
Drafts should only be graded after 3 years. For example at the time I thought the 2009 Broncos draft was pretty decent. Now I can confidently give it a solid F.

•Round One (12)- Knowshon Moreno RB
•Round One (18)- Robert Ayers DE
•Round Two (37)- Alphonso Smith CB
•Round Two (48)- Darcel McBath DB
•Round Two (64)- Richard Quinn TE
•Round Four (114)- David Bruton SS
•Round Four (132)- Seth Olsen OG
•Round Five (141)- Kenny McKinley WR
•Round Six (174)- Tom Brandstater QB
•Round Seven (225) Blake Schlueter C

Also, next year's first rounder traded for a second rounder.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2012, 08:33 AM
John Elway dropped the ball in the Denver Broncos' NFL draft

McDaniels still around. Looks to me like Broncos executive John Elway is getting his NFL draft advice from former Denver coach Josh McDaniels.

Jim, Denver

Kiz: The Broncos didn't like anyone or anything on Day One of the NFL draft. Then, it seemed as if Denver liked everybody it drafted too much on the second day. If Elway believes Derek Wolfe of Cincinnati is better than all the defensive tackles that were on the board, I have no problem going against conventional wisdom. But taking Arizona State quarterback Brock Osweiler to collect dust behind Peyton Manning? Let's see how many plays Osweiler makes this season compared with Nebraska linebacker Lavonte David, grabbed at No. 58 by Tampa Bay before Osweiler could be fitted for a Broncos ball cap. San Diego State running back Ronnie Hillman was taken by a below-average defensive team to erase the mistake of Knowshon Moreno. Wolfe. Osweiler. Hillman. If that out-of-the-box thinking was exhibited while McDaniels was in charge, he would have been called names I can't mention.



The rest...http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_20505998/john-elway-dropped-ball-denver-broncos-draft

This is why I like Kizla. I don't like Kliss, but I very much like most of Kizla's takes.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2012, 08:35 AM
You should find your village then.

doh!

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2012, 08:37 AM
There's the added incentive that every time Kizla says something, I automatically want to be on the opposite side of the issue. Kizla is a pimp.

You're thinking of Kliss. Kizla is pretty fair in his articles.

baja
04-29-2012, 08:37 AM
High effort and bad attitude. That's how I like my DTs. ;D

I like the pick a lot too.

Hulamau
04-29-2012, 08:43 AM
I agree with this. And if Empire Orange is to believed, at least one of those guys were targeted. It's also good to remember that regardless, most of everyone's draftees are going to fail and be out of football in a couple of years. If you manage to find three or four guys who make your football team and play well, you're doing very well.

And not at all surprised Kizla is whining about something with the Broncos.

QFT ... Kiz wakes up in the morning bitching about one thing or another at Dove Valley.

DENVERDUI55
04-29-2012, 08:46 AM
Drafts should only be graded after 3 years. For example at the time I thought the 2009 Broncos draft was pretty decent. Now I can confidently give it a solid F.

•Round One (12)- Knowshon Moreno RB
•Round One (18)- Robert Ayers DE
•Round Two (37)- Alphonso Smith CB
•Round Two (48)- Darcel McBath DB
•Round Two (64)- Richard Quinn TE
•Round Four (114)- David Bruton SS
•Round Four (132)- Seth Olsen OG
•Round Five (141)- Kenny McKinley WR
•Round Six (174)- Tom Brandstater QB
•Round Seven (225) Blake Schlueter C

Also, next year's first rounder traded for a second rounder.
That is an awful draft and I thought the shanny moss, crowder Harris and Thomas was bad.

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 08:53 AM
You're thinking of Kliss. Kizla is pretty fair in his articles.

All I ever see out of Kizla is he'll take whatever side of an issue it takes to stir the pot.

TheFullTebow
04-29-2012, 08:54 AM
Elway dropped the ball when he lied to Tim and then traded him. Nothing can make up for that.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2012, 08:55 AM
All I ever see out of Kizla is he'll take whatever side of an issue it takes to stir the pot.

Kliss is the asshat who hates whatever the Broncos do. Kizla writes a lot less articles than Kliss. Kizla is upbeat most of the time, supportive but not a yes man. Obviously he has some fair questions about this draft.

steeledude
04-29-2012, 08:55 AM
I don't think the assessment of the players themselves is particularly fair, but yes, we did overdraft. The reasons people aren't b****ing about it is because:
1. John Elway picked them.
2. We won a playoff game last year.
3. We signed Peyton Manning this off-season.

It so people are more willing to be glass half full thinkers. Doesn't change that if McDaniels had this same draft people would be calling it an object failure.



Let's say McDaniels hadn't traded Cutler, Marshal, Scheffler, and Hillis in those two years, but he did some of his crazy drafting (not all, couldn't have without the trades, but just for the sake of argument). Do you think McD would've received the heavy criticism he got? I think by trading away two pro bowlers, a great receiving tight end, and another potential pro bowler (who became one somewhere else), despite the head case problems of these guys, McD put himself in a position where our team was in a huge talent deficit. He had to win with at least some of his picks, and looking back, most of his picks lost. He really created a situation where he couldn't afford to miss on a single early pick.

And it doesn't help that a lot of the guys he picked grew leaps and bounds the moment he left. Robert Ayers for example was terribly wrong at linebacker.

Elway has some room for creative thinking. They've been much more successful, and they've done a lot to erase the damage that McD did.

Hulamau
04-29-2012, 09:05 AM
This is why I like Kizla. I don't like Kliss, but I very much like most of Kizla's takes.

Well its typical Kiz hyperbole saying the Broncos didnt like anyone at all on Day one. They obviously had a number of DTs targeted but when they were gone BEFORE 25 ... their next best DT was Wolfe and they wisely traded down to get him plus grab the ammo to move up for Hillman.

None of us know whether this turns into the best draft ever for the Broncos, an average one or a crapper? ... Doubt seriously its the later as it looks like we got some players and in positions of need as well across the board.

The UDFA stock looks very promising too for at least three of those guys likely sticking either on the roster or PS.

If Bolden's leg holds up, and I'm encouraged by his recent 40 time and Pro-day drills plus Greek feels he is 100% good to go (the injury was a full year ago as well which bodes well for him to be running on all cylinders by training camp), then we really scored there with a possible, if not likely, 10 to 12 year starter for us at corner.

We lock up Porter for a multi-year deal later before FA next year and then we are only looking for a Champ replacement in next years draft and perhaps one more stud Safety to solidly our entire secondary for years to come.

I think Quinton Carter makes huge strides at Safety his sophomore year, ditto also for Irving at MLB. Indeed, I expect some significant improvements in most of our rookies and second year guys from last year when they had no off-season and no contact with coaching staff, trainers or facilities last year at all until training camp.

If Mario Fannin is fully healed as advertized and raring to go and has worked out the kinks in holding on to the ball (The dropsies CAN be coached and corrected ala Tiki Barber), then between McGahee, Hillman Fannin and possibly Moreno we have depth skill with two hammers and one speed burner in Hillman and with Moreno ( if he sticks) as a decent backup 3rd down pass receiver out of the backfield.

If UDFA Gerrell Robinson WR sticks we scored there as well ... I like the Blake pick as well. Smart as hell and a big strong dude who can play well at both guard and center .. .exactly what we needed to shore up the Oline for Manning.

Hillman I'm really high on... If he can stay healthy which he has shown he can as the feature back at SDSU .. then we likely have a real homerun hitter in both the run game and catching screen balls from Manning in the flats.

All in all, a damn decent hall .. potentially .. which is about all that any of the 32 teams could say at this point.

Osweiler is a wild card. It hurts that we could grab a Lavonte David at LB instead, but we absolutely needed a realistic back-up/potential successor to Manning and we cant wait until his hypothetical last year of play to find him. If Elway and Fox were high enough on Osweiliers.

When you look at this offseason as a whole it looks pretty damn good. Not ideal but not half bad either.

NFLBRONCO
04-29-2012, 09:10 AM
Osweiler- My problems with pick is I thought we should give Manning another weapon and get this guy in the 3rd.

Hillman- I like him just don't get why we felt we needed to move up 20 spots to get him. Figured he was a Sat pick maybe.

Like others say how they do on the field is most important.

schaaf
04-29-2012, 09:14 AM
It sounds as though Baltimore was going to take Wolfe in the second until Courtney Upshaw fell to them, I don't think we reached at all for him

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 09:15 AM
Kliss is the asshat who hates whatever the Broncos do. Kizla writes a lot less articles than Kliss. Kizla is upbeat most of the time, supportive but not a yes man. Obviously he has some fair questions about this draft.

I like Klis ten times more than Kizla (although I think he's really more of a hockey writer). Here's his piece today: http://www.denverpost.com/klis
To me, all I ever hear out of Kizla is stuff designed to piss people off.

Bronco Rob
04-29-2012, 09:16 AM
Mel Kipers: AFC West Draft Grades

• San Diego B+
• Denver C+
• Kansas City C+
• Oakland C -

NFL Network: AFC West Draft Grades

• San Diego B+
• Kansas City B+
• Denver B-
• Oakland C

Fox Sports: AFC West Draft Grades

• Kansas City B+
• San Diego B
• Denver B-
• Oakland D

Hulamau
04-29-2012, 09:18 AM
Osweiler- My problems with pick is I thought we should give Manning another weapon and get this guy in the 3rd.

Hillman- I like him just don't get why we felt we needed to move up 20 spots to get him. Figured he was a Sat pick maybe.

Like others say how they do on the field is most important.

In both cases they obviously felt neither would last until the original third round pick. We obivously weren't going to get both of them plus someone else with the 57 pick.

Of course we would all have loved to have a third second round pick to play with, but they had to work with reality and the reality was if you wanted Osweiler for sure and he wasnt just some after though backup cannon fodder QB, then they had to grab him there.

Who was it .. the vikings or someone took Wilson or whoever at QB in the upper third round.. No way they would not have grab Osweiler if we had not taken him first.

You can argue whether of not we should have taken Osweiler QBOTF, but once you understand Elway's/Foxes assessment and decision, you cant argue with them taking him where they did as he was not likley at all to last until the last quarter of the 3rd round! And if we moved up into the early third for him then we almost for sure miss out on Hillman.

Reality is tough to accept

Gcver2ver3
04-29-2012, 09:18 AM
i could understand being critical of this draft...

but if we've learned anything by now, its that being high or low on drafts at the time it happens can make you look pretty silly in a few years...

what can't be denied is that the broncos addressed positions of need throughout the draft... so that means anybody critical of the draft is just critical of the players drafted for those positions of need which means they believe they are a better evaluater of talent than elway...

and at this point, in elways short tenure, at least at this point i'm willing to give elway the benefit of the doubt and trust him...

Hulamau
04-29-2012, 09:19 AM
Mel Kipers: AFC West Draft Grades

• San Diego B+
• Denver C+
• Kansas City C+
• Oakland C -

NFL Network: AFC West Draft Grades

• San Diego B+
• Kansas City B+
• Denver B-
• Oakland C

Fox Sports: AFC West Draft Grades

• Kansas City B+
• San Diego B
• Denver B-
• Oakland D

A B to B- is about right and doing pretty well with the #25 pick ....

LRtagger
04-29-2012, 09:39 AM
I understand the thought process for the draft and the fact that they had players targeted and moved around to get them...but instead of the second tradeback and ending up with Wolfe, Brock, and Hillman I think we could have stayed at 31 and still ended up with Wolfe at 57, and Osweiler at 67 or 101. And with that 31st pick ended up with Doug Martin. I guess the risk of potentially losing Wolfe/Brock outweighed the benefit of drafting Martin and hoping those other players were there at the next picks.

Martin, Wolfe, Osweiler > Wolfe, Osweiler, Hillman

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 09:42 AM
i could understand being critical of this draft...

but if we've learned anything by now, its that being high or low on drafts at the time it happens can make you look pretty silly in a few years...

what can't be denied is that the broncos addressed positions of need throughout the draft... so that means anybody critical of the draft is just critical of the players drafted for those positions of need which means they believe they are a better evaluater of talent than elway...

and at this point, in elways short tenure, at least at this point i'm willing to give elway the benefit of the doubt and trust him...

Somewhere out there right now is another Victor Cruz being laughed at on a team board. ;D

TonyR
04-29-2012, 09:44 AM
*Multiple front office men questioned the Broncos trading down twice and out of the first round, especially because there were defensive players on the board who others thought the Broncos could have used. For trading down twice from the 25th pick to the 36th, the Broncos ended up with only a fourth round pick.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFP-Sunday-Blitz-7470.html

That One Guy
04-29-2012, 09:44 AM
Elway dropped the ball when he lied to Tim and then traded him. Nothing can make up for that.

You're crazy.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2012, 09:45 AM
I understand the thought process for the draft and the fact that they had players targeted and moved around to get them...but instead of the second tradeback and ending up with Wolfe, Brock, and Hillman I think we could have stayed at 31 and still ended up with Wolfe at 57, and Osweiler at 67 or 101. And with that 31st pick ended up with Doug Martin. I guess the risk of potentially losing Wolfe/Brock outweighed the benefit of drafting Martin and hoping those other players were there at the next picks.

Martin, Wolfe, Osweiler > Wolfe, Osweiler, Hillman

yep, pretty much.

BroncoBeavis
04-29-2012, 09:45 AM
A B to B- is about right and doing pretty well with the #25 pick ....

I don't think the grades take into account pick placement. Otherwise OAK would have straight F's. It's about how well you did with the picks you had.

In other words they've got us near or at the bottom of the division.

TonyR
04-29-2012, 09:46 AM
Denver Broncos -- John Elway and John Fox won their division in 2011 and even won a playoff game. So naturally, they traded their starting quarterback and shoved all in on Peyton Manning. That's a worthy gamble but the draft should reflect that too and feature picks that help the team immediately. So unless Denver's planning on using Brock Osweiler as a red-zone target, it's kind of hard to imagine how they did that by grabbing him in the second round. They got some depth on defense and I like Ronnie Hillman as a guy to fit into what Manning does on offense, but Denver needed to be more aggressive about making their team better immediately and they didn't do that.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/18881992/nfl-draft-winners-and-losers-colts-stay-on-offensive-with-smart-draft

That One Guy
04-29-2012, 09:46 AM
The only thing I would've liked more is assuming the Broncos felt strongly about some of the players (as is said about Decastro), I'd rather they had burnt some 4th or 5th rounders to go get him. That's the one thing I did like about McD is that he found the players he wanted and went and got them. A difference maker in the 1st is better than taking the best of whoever falls and then a bunch of schmucks in the later part of the draft.

That's, again, assuming they liked Decastro as much as is said. I don't like passive drafters.

BroncoBeavis
04-29-2012, 09:47 AM
*Multiple front office men questioned the Broncos trading down twice and out of the first round, especially because there were defensive players on the board who others thought the Broncos could have used. For trading down twice from the 25th pick to the 36th, the Broncos ended up with only a fourth round pick.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFP-Sunday-Blitz-7470.html

Effing teboners.

hambone13
04-29-2012, 09:47 AM
It is also about pure luck.

Look at what Denver's draft would have been like had a player fell just one more spot in the first and 2 more in the 2nd

Decastro
Konz

Now we are talking about a top draft for the entire NFL and we are looking at the best Oline in football


Denver did try to outFox themseleves I believe but most times the draft is more about Luck and Art than Science. The Art really kicks in after the 2nd round. Until then I bet everyones' draft boards are relatively the same

Well said. I believe there is a lot of truth in these words.

BroncoBeavis
04-29-2012, 09:48 AM
Denver Broncos -- John Elway and John Fox won their division in 2011 and even won a playoff game. So naturally, they traded their starting quarterback and shoved all in on Peyton Manning. That's a worthy gamble but the draft should reflect that too and feature picks that help the team immediately. So unless Denver's planning on using Brock Osweiler as a red-zone target, it's kind of hard to imagine how they did that by grabbing him in the second round. They got some depth on defense and I like Ronnie Hillman as a guy to fit into what Manning does on offense, but Denver needed to be more aggressive about making their team better immediately and they didn't do that.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/18881992/nfl-draft-winners-and-losers-colts-stay-on-offensive-with-smart-draft

Why doesn't CBS Sports go cheer for the Jets?

That One Guy
04-29-2012, 09:49 AM
Denver Broncos -- John Elway and John Fox won their division in 2011 and even won a playoff game. So naturally, they traded their starting quarterback and shoved all in on Peyton Manning. That's a worthy gamble but the draft should reflect that too and feature picks that help the team immediately. So unless Denver's planning on using Brock Osweiler as a red-zone target, it's kind of hard to imagine how they did that by grabbing him in the second round. They got some depth on defense and I like Ronnie Hillman as a guy to fit into what Manning does on offense, but Denver needed to be more aggressive about making their team better immediately and they didn't do that.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/18881992/nfl-draft-winners-and-losers-colts-stay-on-offensive-with-smart-draft

I hate this perspective. Under this logic, win now means completely mortgaging the future. Why didn't we trade next year's first for a 2nd, the following year's first for a 3rd, next year's 2nd for a 3rd, the following year's 2nd for a 4th, etc? You can make an effort to win now but still put some safety nets in place for the future.

hambone13
04-29-2012, 09:51 AM
This is so true! Sometimes the draft just falls to you and you get your guy every round or get a great player in a position of need that falls to you. Our guy went one pick before we drafted at 25 and that set up the chain of events that became our 2012 draft. EFX really had to work at this draft.

I think Elways career will be judged early on by how Tebow and Osweller turn out.

His career already as a huge "Get out of Scrutiny" card with the landing of PM. I think he's got quite a few draft mistakes to make before this draft will effect his career negatively, as it should be.

Tombstone RJ
04-29-2012, 09:53 AM
I hate this perspective. Under this logic, win now means completely mortgaging the future. Why didn't we trade next year's first for a 2nd, the following year's first for a 3rd, next year's 2nd for a 3rd, the following year's 2nd for a 4th, etc? You can make an effort to win now but still put some safety nets in place for the future.

If Osweiler pans out all will be forgiven but as of now, these critics are right...

That One Guy
04-29-2012, 09:53 AM
His career already as a huge "Get out of Scrutiny" card with the landing of PM. I think he's got quite a few draft mistakes to make before this draft will effect his career negatively, as it should be.

I think this decision is a 3 year one as well. We don't know whether Tebow or mid-30s Manning is the best decision for the team at this point though. I think and hope it's Manning but you can't use it as a full blown positive as there's definitely some question marks still in play about him.

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 09:57 AM
If Osweiler pans out all will be forgiven but as of now, these critics are right...

The Osweiler pick almost makes me wonder if the Broncos don't feel too secure with the medical outlook on Manning.

TheReverend
04-29-2012, 10:00 AM
The Osweiler pick almost makes me wonder if the Broncos don't feel too secure with the medical outlook on Manning.

I've been concerned with this since they flew to ASU to watch him play.

DenverBrit
04-29-2012, 10:01 AM
*Multiple front office men questioned the Broncos trading down twice and out of the first round, especially because there were defensive players on the board who others thought the Broncos could have used. For trading down twice from the 25th pick to the 36th, the Broncos ended up with only a fourth round pick.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFP-Sunday-Blitz-7470.html

Don't these hacks ever have 'named sources' instead of projecting?

DenverBrit
04-29-2012, 10:05 AM
If Osweiler pans out all will be forgiven but as of now, these critics are right...

Based on what? No one has a clue how this draft will turn out in a few years.....when it matters.

Mostly hacks who have done little research compared to the teams who's scouting depts have spent most of 12 months evaluating talent that fits the teams needs.

hambone13
04-29-2012, 10:09 AM
I think this decision is a 3 year one as well. We don't know whether Tebow or mid-30s Manning is the best decision for the team at this point though. I think and hope it's Manning but you can't use it as a full blown positive as there's definitely some question marks still in play about him.

There's always question marks. Aaron Rodgers could go out Theisman style tomorrow. It's one of the reasons that the Osweiler pick is starting to grow on me. Caleb Hainie does not inspire the same.

eddie mac
04-29-2012, 10:11 AM
The only good draft we've had in the last 10 years was 2006.

Jay Cutler
Tony Scheffler
Brandon Marshall
Elvis Dumervil
Domenik Hixon
Chris Kuper
Greg Eslinger

That was a solid A+ for 3 pro-bowlers and one solid starter.

eddie mac
04-29-2012, 10:12 AM
Can you imagine the feedback on here if Manning isn't 100% and we're conceding 200 yds rushing a game.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
04-29-2012, 10:14 AM
Drafts should only be graded after 3 years. For example at the time I thought the 2009 Broncos draft was pretty decent. Now I can confidently give it a solid F.

•Round One (12)- Knowshon Moreno RB
•Round One (18)- Robert Ayers DE
•Round Two (37)- Alphonso Smith CB
•Round Two (48)- Darcel McBath DB
•Round Two (64)- Richard Quinn TE
•Round Four (114)- David Bruton SS
•Round Four (132)- Seth Olsen OG
•Round Five (141)- Kenny McKinley WR
•Round Six (174)- Tom Brandstater QB
•Round Seven (225) Blake Schlueter C

Also, next year's first rounder traded for a second rounder.

This was an awesome draft!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL :(

TheReverend
04-29-2012, 10:14 AM
The only good draft we've had in the last 10 years was 2006.

Jay Cutler
Tony Scheffler
Brandon Marshall
Elvis Dumervil
Domenik Hixon
Chris Kuper
Greg Eslinger

That was a solid A+ for 3 pro-bowlers and one solid starter.

2008 netted 9 players... only 2 of them havent been starters in the NFL.

elsid13
04-29-2012, 10:22 AM
The only good draft we've had in the last 10 years was 2006.

Jay Cutler
Tony Scheffler
Brandon Marshall
Elvis Dumervil
Domenik Hixon
Chris Kuper
Greg Eslinger

That was a solid A+ for 3 pro-bowlers and one solid starter.

The only miss in that draft was Eslinger. Everyone else in that draft is solid or better then average player. I am including Hixon career in NY.

Denver724
04-29-2012, 10:22 AM
It sounds as though Baltimore was going to take Wolfe in the second until Courtney Upshaw fell to them, I don't think we reached at all for him

Agreed.

That One Guy
04-29-2012, 10:26 AM
The only miss in that draft was Eslinger. Everyone else in that draft is solid or better then average player. I am including Hixon career in NY.

I even saw some Eslinger traffic recently, I believe. I know it was one of those no-name guards that everyone had high hopes for.

Those sure were some fun draft times because you knew guys were going to at least turn into role players out of nowhere. You didn't necessarily know who but you knew someone was. Hopefully now we can do the same with DL.

Gallandro
04-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Bolden was a steal in the 4th round. Following his Junior year he was quickly on his way to becoming one of the premiere, if not the premiere CB in the Pac-10... and I think Brock will pleasantly surprise in a year or two... he's raw but he certainly has the talent and athleticism to be a solid NFL QB. Speaking of Sun Devils, WR Gerell Robinson was a fantastic undrafted free agent pick up.

uplink
04-29-2012, 10:53 AM
The only bad pick IMO was the 2nd second rounder. Teams should get there 2nd string QB when they get a deal, don't pay premium. The qb from Boise state should be on the roster as an UDFA and another player should have been picked instead of Brock O. They did a good job picking Wolfe and a good job in the later rounds and the UDFAs.

However Brock O. would have been gone by the broncos 3rd round pick for sure, so if they really really liked him I guess it is fine.

Drunken.Broncoholic
04-29-2012, 10:59 AM
All these critics said jemarcus Russell would be a HOFer, Jarvis Moss would get double digit sacks, lelie would be a probowler, and George foster could block a truck.

UberBroncoMan
04-29-2012, 11:29 AM
Elway dropped the ball when he lied to Tim and then traded him. Nothing can make up for that.

To be fair, that's exactly how the NFL works. What you promise one day can change the next. It's quite typical. Ex-NFL players bring that point up all the time. I'm sure you're smart enough to know that.

Denver Brockos
04-29-2012, 11:31 AM
To be fair, that's exactly how the NFL works. What you promise one day can change the next. It's quite typical. Ex-NFL players bring that point up all the time. I'm sure you're smart enough to know that.

Indeed. The Browns promised McCoy they wouldn't be drafting a QB, and sure enough...

That One Guy
04-29-2012, 11:32 AM
All these critics said jemarcus Russell would be a HOFer, Jarvis Moss would get double digit sacks, lelie would be a probowler, and George foster could block a truck.

The reality is that you could have the best streak in the game by just guessing everyone is going to underperform and never meet expectations.

HooptyHoops
04-29-2012, 11:42 AM
The only good draft we've had in the last 10 years was 2006.

Jay Cutler
Tony Scheffler
Brandon Marshall
Elvis Dumervil
Domenik Hixon
Chris Kuper
Greg Eslinger

That was a solid A+ for 3 pro-bowlers and one solid starter.

The way these players are playing right now, this draft is a draft for the ages....wow!!

Bronco Rob
04-29-2012, 11:42 AM
Per Si.com Denver Broncos: Help us, Peyton Manning, you’re our only hope. This doesn’t feel like a draft that will put Denver over the top. DT Derek Wolfe fills a need, but Jerel Worthy or Devon Still would have been safer picks, and the Brock Osweiler selection at 57 makes absolutely no sense. Grade: D

Oakland Raiders: Like the Saints, Oakland didn’t have a pick until the third round. The Raiders didn’t do too poorly given that challenge, landing a needed offensive lineman in Tony Bergstrom (95) and finding underrated WR Juron Criner at 168. It was a safer draft that New Orleans had in similar circumstances, but there are no stars here. Grade: C

Kansas City Chiefs: The Chiefs actually did some great work late, nabbing RB Cyrus Gray (182) and sure-handed WR Junior Hemingway (238). If only their early work had been as sturdy. DT Dontari Poe (11) might be a great one, but anyone who watched him on tape saw a lethargic competitor. If at least one of two O-line picks, Jeff Allen (44) and Donald Stephenson (74), doesn’t make it, this draft might turn out to be a disaster. Grade: C

San Diego Chargers: I’m not sure how DE/OLB Melvin Ingram fell to 18, but the Chargers will reap the benefits for years. DT Kendall Reyes (49) and S Brandon Taylor (73) are perfect puzzle pieces at positions of need, too, so it’s hard to knock San Diego even for the odd pick of G Johnny Troutman (149). Grade: A





:sunshine:

TonyR
04-29-2012, 11:47 AM
Don't these hacks ever have 'named sources' instead of projecting?

You think somebody's going to go on the record criticizing another team's draft?

bombay
04-29-2012, 11:53 AM
kisla. There's a voice that matters.

broncosteven
04-29-2012, 12:05 PM
You should find your village then.

Gainsville FL, they have too many so they matriculate them out every 4-6, or even 7 years.


LOL CBF1

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Help us, Peyton Manning, you’re our only hope.

Hilarious!

Hercules Rockefeller
04-29-2012, 12:29 PM
The Osweiler pick almost makes me wonder if the Broncos don't feel too secure with the medical outlook on Manning.

I think it is more to do with Elway's obsession with having a 10-year answer at QB on the roster. They obviously never thought Tebow could be the guy and Manning might have 3 good years left. It's been obvious since the season ended that they were taking a QB high in this draft. We all know they were in Stillwater watching Weeden when Peyton decided to come visit. They took a true boom-or-bust QB with the 57th pick in the draft, and they have a few years to evaluate whether he can be the guy once #18 retires.

Drek
04-29-2012, 12:33 PM
One has to remember that most are basing "overdrafting" on the rankings of people on the net and/or TV. Who knows if this is reality. Sure these people talk to scouts and GM's, but who knows if they are feeding them the truth or if they are lies. It may be smokescreens.

Great. I'm not basing my opinions off rankings from the web or tv. I'm basing my criticism off the fact that anyone who seriously thinks Brock Osweiler is a better NFL prospect than Lavonte David, Rueben Randle, or Casey Hayward is a ****ing idiot.

They overdrafted Osweiler because they painted themselves in a corner at QB. Why? Because Elway didn't want Tebow around. We gave up huge value in trading him, we gave up even more to replace him. That is big net negative this team didn't need to take.

Let's say McDaniels hadn't traded Cutler, Marshal, Scheffler, and Hillis in those two years, but he did some of his crazy drafting (not all, couldn't have without the trades, but just for the sake of argument). Do you think McD would've received the heavy criticism he got? I think by trading away two pro bowlers, a great receiving tight end, and another potential pro bowler (who became one somewhere else), despite the head case problems of these guys, McD put himself in a position where our team was in a huge talent deficit. He had to win with at least some of his picks, and looking back, most of his picks lost. He really created a situation where he couldn't afford to miss on a single early pick.

And it doesn't help that a lot of the guys he picked grew leaps and bounds the moment he left. Robert Ayers for example was terribly wrong at linebacker.

Elway has some room for creative thinking. They've been much more successful, and they've done a lot to erase the damage that McD did.
They've been more successful by posting the same 8-8 record as McDaniels did in his first year but in a weaker division. That success was borne on the backs of a roster constructed with nearly 80% of McDaniels' players and half of his coaching staff.

Also, I'm pointing out the problem with the perception, the source of it is abundantly clear. The Cutler trade was great value for a guy who has never returned to that same level. Marshall got stupid money and has been less productive, less healthy, and is very possibly about to get suspended. Smart trade there. Scheffler bitched his way off this team and hasn't been a starter since. Hillis didn't work out for McDaniels but he also was buried on the bench by Shanahan initially and Mike Holmgren just put zero effort into retaining him. The best he got was a one year, low money deal.

All of those guys had issues that are still keeping them from being elite players. The two who looked to be on the verge of becoming elite returned exceptional value for us.

McDaniels' inability to build a quality coaching staff and to manage people is well documented. He killed this team due to those failings. But he got really good value for all of the assets he had.

Honestly, he'd be way better off if he left the coaching ranks and became a player personnel guy. There his cold and calculating personality would play well and his best skills (number crunching and heartless talent evaluation) would serve him well.

Rohirrim
04-29-2012, 12:35 PM
I think it is more to do with Elway's obsession with having a 10-year answer at QB on the roster. They obviously never thought Tebow could be the guy and Manning might have 3 good years left. It's been obvious since the season ended that they were taking a QB high in this draft. We all know they were in Stillwater watching Weeden when Peyton decided to come visit. They took a true boom-or-bust QB with the 57th pick in the draft, and they have a few years to evaluate whether he can be the guy once #18 retires.

He's got an arm and he's accurate. That's a good place to start.

baja
04-29-2012, 12:42 PM
You think somebody's going to go on the record criticizing another team's draft?


Not only that do you think a team with a completely different value on players they liked is going to like another teams choices.

errand
04-29-2012, 12:46 PM
One has to remember that most are basing "overdrafting" on the rankings of people on the net and/or TV. Who knows if this is reality. Sure these people talk to scouts and GM's, but who knows if they are feeding them the truth or if they are lies. It may be smokescreens.

Exactly....again it's the author's perceived value of the player or draft slot.

amazing how half the board thinks that everyone else is an idiot, but them....

Which of you guys thought that Tebow would revolutionize the QB position, or that Ashley Lelie would be the next Randy Moss...or that Kennoy Kennedy would be the next Atwater/Smith. Or thought alphonso smith was a wasted pick.

The point being is the draft is a crap shoot....and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, it only matters what the team selecting him thinks about him.

Wolfe doesn't fit the template alot on here have of a prototypical DT....but other than Suh or Dareus, how many DT's actually become so good they're not interchangable with anyone else's DT? It's a position where finding one of the rare gems is harder, as they're practically all the same....

There are maybe 4-5 guys drafted over the past half decade that have truly amounted to more than a servicable above average guy...Ngata, Suh, Dareus, Raji...and that list itself is questionable on occasion. the rest of the guys forge decent careers as rotational guys that might have one good season outta 4 .

For every Larry Fitzgerald there's a Marcus Nash....and the bus stations and Verizon kiosks are filled with the next Terrell Davis or Barry Sanders. Hell one guy did an article and his conclusions were pretty much that more than you'd think UDFA's are starting in the NFL over guys that had better pedigrees....Kurt Warner came from the Arena football league, the Cowboys once had a FB that use to load up people's cars at The Home Depot.

those that think we "over drafted" or that elway screwed the pooch by not drafting the guy you wanted need to chill the **** out....either that or go ahead and blow your ****ing brains out, because your opinion of who's worth what is meaningless to everyone but yourself.

Swedish Extrovert
04-29-2012, 12:50 PM
at first glance i was pretty pissed with the first three picks. then i actually looked into the guys and saw wolfe n hillman had great production. we passed on devon still and jerel worthy -- guys who are hot and cold players for a high motor high intensity DT. maybe the talent isnt there but hard work and effort is . to fox and del rio the trade off was worth it so i trust there defensive intelligence.

osweiler pick im meh on maybe hes over drafted but in 3 years from now if he's aaron rodgers no one will be b****ing.

after watching youtubes on hillman how can any1 complain about the guy . he has lots of talent broke marshal faulks records at SDSU and can contribute right away. elway was looking for "impact players" and so far wolfe and hillman give us that.

omar bolden was a top CB before his injury if he pans out it will be a steal in the draft hes a good player. they found solid depth with blake and travethon. malik jackson has great measurables and motor so hes a wonderful project DT / DE.

not the best draft this year but its a very solid one to help our teams depth greatly

It is about value, too.

I'm going to give the staff the benefit of a doubt that they knew what theyr were doing, and I'm sure Wolfe was probably higher on the actual NFL draft boards then the pundits would lead you to believe... but if you take ESPN and PFT seriously, its easy to see3 that, according to their assesments, the Broncos had bad value.

DenverBrit
04-29-2012, 12:52 PM
You think somebody's going to go on the record criticizing another team's draft?

Not at all, but it makes a convenient smokescreen to vent from.

errand
04-29-2012, 01:01 PM
Where was Nick Foles graded? . Didn't Philly overdraft?

Depends how you grade. Mayock had Tannehill 87, Brock at 83, Weeden at 83 , Foles at 71 and Lindley a 6th round pick at 63

Cousin was rated higher than Foles. Probably why Wash drafted Cousin he was just too high on the board

Exactly...just like some guys like Jaworski had Ryan Leaf as his top QB instead of Manning. How many of those "draft gurus" had JaMarcus rated as high as Elway was?

I'm thinking Mike in his hope to catch lightning in a bottle like Reeves did when he ended up coming out of '83 draft with Elway and Kubiak, has kind of unwittingly created his own QB controversy....because if Cousins outplays RGIII and the Redskins struggle out the gate....who knows?

errand
04-29-2012, 01:14 PM
I really don't understand the criticism of the Osweiler pick. Given the age/health/contract situation with Manning, it was absolutely imperative that the team add a developmental qb in the next couple of years. If they saw someone they liked in the late second round this year it was totally reasonable to grab him. As for him "collecting dust," behind Manning, how did it work out for Rodgers to collect dust behind an all time great qb? Obviously there's no guarantee something similar will happen here, but it's certainly a sensible long term plan.

As for Wolfe, everything I've read indicates that the "experts" were all in agreement that he was in the second tier of DTs in the draft with a few guys rated higher by small fractions of a point. I'm going to tend to give Fox and Del Rio the benefit of the doubt on their judgment that Wolfe is the best fit for the team. And I haven't seen anyone with any qualifications suggest that he was a major reach.

Hillman on the other hand does seem questionable.

I agree....with the exception of Hillman being a reach. Hillman put up some eye popping numbers at SD state, his bench was better than most, and his 40 timed at 4.45

he averaged 5.65 yards per carry,

had over 3200 yards rushing and 38 total TD's...

and he's a TD waiting to happen as evidenced by -
he had 93 and 99 yard runs

19 of his 36 TD runs were 10 yards or longer...

....of which 9 came from more than 40 yards....

...and 6 from 50 yards plus, which proves he can take it the distance...

this guy barring injury should provide us with "instant" offense.

eddie mac
04-29-2012, 02:00 PM
I dont think any team will ever again match Denver's record of drafting 2 Pro-Bowlers in the 4th rd of the same draft. That feat in itself was one of Shanahan's greatest all time draft accomplishments.

R8R H8R
04-29-2012, 02:43 PM
I agree....with the exception of Hillman being a reach. Hillman put up some eye popping numbers at SD state, his bench was better than most, and his 40 timed at 4.45

he averaged 5.65 yards per carry,

had over 3200 yards rushing and 38 total TD's...

and he's a TD waiting to happen as evidenced by -
he had 93 and 99 yard runs

19 of his 36 TD runs were 10 yards or longer...

....of which 9 came from more than 40 yards....

...and 6 from 50 yards plus, which proves he can take it the distance...

this guy barring injury should provide us with "instant" offense.

I am really warming up to this kid. He brings a dynamic to the running game most of us have been clamoring for many years now. I just find it funny that when we get this guy, people find a reason to ***** about it. Oh well, life on the Mane.
I believe he will eventually be more than just a 3rd down back, however he is not a 25 carry guy. He doesn't need to be esp. since Fox likes to rotate RB's anyway.

My prediction is that if he shows EFX in TC what they suspected he could do when they scouted him, Moreno will be traded before the season opener for a mid to late round pick.

errand
04-29-2012, 03:36 PM
The only bad pick IMO was the 2nd second rounder. Teams should get there 2nd string QB when they get a deal, don't pay premium. The qb from Boise state should be on the roster as an UDFA and another player should have been picked instead of Brock O. They did a good job picking Wolfe and a good job in the later rounds and the UDFAs.

However Brock O. would have been gone by the broncos 3rd round pick for sure, so if they really really liked him I guess it is fine.



Elway didn't draft Osweiler to be Manning's back-up per se (although he will sit and learn for a few seasons) as much as he drafted him to be Manning's heir apparent

errand
04-29-2012, 03:38 PM
Can you imagine the feedback on here if Manning isn't 100% and we're conceding 200 yds rushing a game.

....or imagine the feedback if Manning goes down and Brock comes in a pulls a Brady.

gunns
04-29-2012, 04:03 PM
Wolfe - My favorite DT behind Cox. Love the fact we moved back a bit to get him.

Osweiler - Don't like having to get a backup/QBOTF with our 2nd pick. But I understand it. Nobody wants to see Hanie if Manning gets hurt.

Hillman - I love the immediate impact this guy can make. At this point in the draft he was probably the best playmaker available.

Bolden - I think at the worst he becomes our Dime CB which aint bad for a 4th rounder. His upside is obvious and love his physical style and emotion. Could see him and Harris as out top 2 CB's in a few years.

Blake - I know we needed interior line depth and someone to compete with Walton but would have rather taken another DT here.

Jackson - I like his versatility. Very similar buid and style to Ayers, hopefully he can push Ayers to be better.

Trvathan - Good depth an ST help.

UDFA - I think we did our best work here and should make for a very competitive TC for the bottom half of our roster.

This. Except Hillman is a question mark to me.

BroncoBuff
04-29-2012, 06:49 PM
The Brock Osweiler selection at 57 makes absolutely no sense. Grade: D
Taking Arizona State quarterback Brock Osweiler to collect dust behind Peyton Manning? Let's see how many plays Osweiler makes this season compared with Nebraska linebacker Lavonte David, grabbed at No. 58 by Tampa Bay before Osweiler could be fitted for a Broncos ball cap.

Best evaluations yet, these guys make perfect sense. So who's on board the Super-Bowl-Now-Express ... there's me, DUI55, Kiszla and SI.com. That's a slow start, but Not a bad start. Think about it and sign up.

Seriously ... we couldda had Lavonte David, the #2 OLB on most boards?! I'm getting overwrought here, no surprise. Who tf worries about the guy we''re trotting out under center in 2015? We have Peyton-freaking-Manning, time is NOW.

maven
04-29-2012, 06:57 PM
Brock is only 21 years old. He has plenty of time to sit & learn.

elsid13
04-29-2012, 07:04 PM
Brock is only 21 years old. He has plenty of time to sit & learn.

And 4 year contract. It would have more sense to wait til next year to draft QBOTF to ensure he was under contract after Manning might retire.

steeledude
04-29-2012, 08:58 PM
Great. I'm not basing my opinions off rankings from the web or tv. I'm basing my criticism off the fact that anyone who seriously thinks Brock Osweiler is a better NFL prospect than Lavonte David, Rueben Randle, or Casey Hayward is a ****ing idiot.

They overdrafted Osweiler because they painted themselves in a corner at QB. Why? Because Elway didn't want Tebow around. We gave up huge value in trading him, we gave up even more to replace him. That is big net negative this team didn't need to take.


They've been more successful by posting the same 8-8 record as McDaniels did in his first year but in a weaker division. That success was borne on the backs of a roster constructed with nearly 80% of McDaniels' players and half of his coaching staff.

Also, I'm pointing out the problem with the perception, the source of it is abundantly clear. The Cutler trade was great value for a guy who has never returned to that same level. Marshall got stupid money and has been less productive, less healthy, and is very possibly about to get suspended. Smart trade there. Scheffler b****ed his way off this team and hasn't been a starter since. Hillis didn't work out for McDaniels but he also was buried on the bench by Shanahan initially and Mike Holmgren just put zero effort into retaining him. The best he got was a one year, low money deal.

All of those guys had issues that are still keeping them from being elite players. The two who looked to be on the verge of becoming elite returned exceptional value for us.

McDaniels' inability to build a quality coaching staff and to manage people is well documented. He killed this team due to those failings. But he got really good value for all of the assets he had.

Honestly, he'd be way better off if he left the coaching ranks and became a player personnel guy. There his cold and calculating personality would play well and his best skills (number crunching and heartless talent evaluation) would serve him well.

I agree, but it's as you said, it's a perception thing. The reason McD got run into the ground at the time (and I was one who loved to run him into the ground) was because of the perceived loss of talent over two years. I can see that Cutler may be too big a head case to ever step to the next level, but at the time people were very divided on the issue. McD came in, cleaned house of what was perceived as high value talent, and then seemingly replaced it with nothing. Hell, I loved all those guys he shipped out, but do I miss them now? Not really. Not at all. Three years ago it seemed a lot more dire.

Elway has come in to a team that was perceived to have no talent because of McD, so it's not so alarming when he makes some stretches in the draft.

I see some of the talent in the guys McD brought in now, but I think the stories are just too different to compare. Just my opinion though.

broncocalijohn
04-29-2012, 10:13 PM
I don't think the assessment of the players themselves is particularly fair, but yes, we did overdraft. The reasons people aren't b****ing about it is because:
1. John Elway picked them.
2. We won a playoff game last year.
3. We signed Peyton Manning this off-season.

It so people are more willing to be glass half full thinkers. Doesn't change that if McDaniels had this same draft people would be calling it an object failure.

This is the cost of organizational turnover though. We obviously gave up a good amount of value so that Elway could swap Tebow for Osweiler as the QBOTF. We gave up a good amount of value to reduce the need for Moreno on this team as well. This is what happens when new guys come in and want to put their mark on the team.

Not a bad way of putting it. They see mistakes by the former group and they want to get rid of that problem right away. They don't want to see the mistakes on the field getting paid. They want to exchange it asap. Klis mentions this with Tebow and Moreno but can't figure this out for himself that those were McDaniels high draft picks. I think we should have went QBOTF next season. Klis also makes it sound as if the Broncos didn't like anyone the first day. No, they didn't like anyone left at wasting a #25 pick on them for what they wanted/needed. I don't know if the FO tried to move up in the draft to get a stud 1st rounder so I cannot blame them for excusing the whole first night. I don't think it was a great draft by far but I did see they addressed needs that have been begged for before the draft. I just could have seen that Brock pick going defense.

Agamemnon
04-29-2012, 11:34 PM
Best evaluations yet, these guys make perfect sense. So who's on board the Super-Bowl-Now-Express ... there's me, DUI55, Kiszla and SI.com. That's a slow start, but Not a bad start. Think about it and sign up.

Seriously ... we couldda had Lavonte David, the #2 OLB on most boards?! I'm getting overwrought here, no surprise. Who tf worries about the guy we''re trotting out under center in 2015? We have Peyton-freaking-Manning, time is NOW.

That's what you were told, but clearly it isn't the actual truth, or at least not the whole truth.

Heyneck
04-29-2012, 11:40 PM
....or imagine the feedback if Manning goes down and Brock comes in a pulls a Brady.

Then that would happen next year. Brady replaced Bledsoe in the 2nd or 3rd game of his second year.

errand
04-29-2012, 11:56 PM
And 4 year contract. It would have more sense to wait til next year to draft QBOTF to ensure he was under contract after Manning might retire.

I doubt Manning plays more than three as he'll be 39 then...and definitely won't if he wins SB during the three seasons....so basically Brock takes over in his 4th season at worst and will 25...and if he sucks, we won't resign him as his contract will be expired.

errand
04-29-2012, 11:59 PM
Then that would happen next year. Brady replaced Bledsoe in the 2nd or 3rd game of his second year.

I was talking more of coming off bench and winning SB....but you are correct, he was already on the roster for a year prior to taking over.

Navy Broncos Fan
04-30-2012, 01:52 AM
I don't like taking Osweiler with the 2nd pick, find it kind of stupid that we trade Tebow for a 4th and then use our 2nd pick in the draft to take another QB. While the pr nightmare for the Broncos would have been horrid if they kept Tebow, I just don't see why we used a 2nd pick to get a QB to sit for hopefully the next 5 years.

Bronco Rob
04-30-2012, 05:00 AM
Analyzing the Broncos' draft: Final grade


April 29, 2012 12:42 p.m. - by Andrew Mason


The good: Denver filled needs with pass-rushing DT Derek Wolfe (Cincinnati), change-of-pace RB Ronnie Hillman (San Diego State), high-upside CB/KR Omar Bolden (Arizona State) and bolstered depth on the interior of the OL with C/G Philip Blake (Baylor). But the second-round pick of QB Brock Osweiler (No. 57) remains the most intriguing selection and will determine the long-term success or failure of the draft. If Peyton Manning's surgically repaired neck holds up, the raw-but-strong-armed Osweiler will have three or more years to develop, refine his game and be ready to be John Elway's hand-picked, answer under center.


The bad: Osweiler has only one full season of college starting experience and needs at least two years of seasoning to be ready. If Manning's neck problems continue and Caleb Hanie falters as he did in a relief stint with Chicago last year, Osweiler won't have that luxury. Hillman added 11 pounds before the combine, but even at 200 pounds, he might not be able to spell McGahee between the tackles. Bolden has missed 21 games the past three seasons with left knee injuries. Although he has fully recovered from a torn ACL suffered a year ago, the knee remains a concern. Grade: B-





http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/18895457