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SpringStein
04-24-2012, 06:59 AM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d8288a470/article/mike-mayocks-top-100-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings

Some of the interesting ones of note:

6. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College
7. Mark Barron, SS, Alabama
8. Stephon Gilmore, CB, South Carolina
9. Chandler Jones, DE, Syracuse

13. Dontari Poe, DT, Memphis
14. Shea McClellin, OLB, Boise State
15. Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama
17. Doug Martin, RB, Boise State

Around our first round:
23. Courtney Upshaw, DE, Alabama
24. David DeCastro, G, Stanford
25. Cordy Glenn, OT, Georgia
26. Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State
27. Dre Kirkpatrick, CB, Alabama
28. Harrison Smith, SS, Notre Dame
29. Michael Brockers, DT, LSU
30. Vinny Curry, DE, Marshall

around our 2nd round pick:
55. Janoris Jenkins, CB, North Alabama
56. Kendall Reyes, DT, Connecticut
57. A.J. Jenkins, WR, Illinois
58. Josh Norman, CB, Coastal Carolina
59. Derek Wolfe, DT, Cincinnati
60. T.Y. Hilton, WR, Florida International
61. Brandon Boykin, CB, Georgia
62. Mitchell Schwartz, OT, California
63. Rueben Randle, WR, LSU

longer list around 87:
81. Sean Spence, OLB, Miami
82. Lamar Miller, RB, Miami
83. Billy Winn, DE, Boise State
84. Jonathan Massaquoi, DE, Troy
85. Ben Jones, C, Georgia
86. Demario Davis, OLB, Arkansas State
87. Leonard Johnson, CB, Iowa State
88. Bernard Pierce, RB, Temple
89. Marvin Jones, WR, California
90. Jamell Fleming, CB, Oklahoma
91. Mohamed Sanu, WR, Rutgers
92. Orson Charles, TE, Georgia
93. Chris Polk, RB, Washington

socalorado
04-24-2012, 07:07 AM
So Mike has Gilmore as his 2nd rated CB behind Claibourne.
I'm tellin ya, Crappatrick is gonna be a bust.
He looks good when surrounded by super-star talent, but hes
really an average player at best.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 08:52 AM
So Mike has Gilmore as his 2nd rated CB behind Claibourne.
I'm tellin ya, Crappatrick is gonna be a bust.
He looks good when surrounded by super-star talent, but hes
really an average player at best.

Lol you're crazy

Requiem
04-24-2012, 08:56 AM
Thanks Spring!

What can anyone tell me about Davis, the OLB form Arkie St.

Seems like a gamer, but might be limited like Woodyard due to size.

Broncoman13
04-24-2012, 08:56 AM
So you like Kirkpatrick? Does he seem similar to Carlos Rogers to you?

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 09:00 AM
Kendall Wright at 16 and Konz at 40 tell me all I need to know about this list.

Mayock's officially jumped the shark he started jumping with leg humping Jamarcus, ranking Alphonso as his #1 corner, and putting McCoy ahead of Suh.

Rohirrim
04-24-2012, 09:04 AM
There's so much "wrong" in this list that it's not worth the effort to point out. Mayock is falling into the "Kiper Syndrome." He thinks he's the new Nostradamus of the draft. Can you say "inflated ego?" I knew you could. ;D

Drunken.Broncoholic
04-24-2012, 09:23 AM
What's fletcher cox ranked? De Castro is gonna make one QB in this league very happy

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 09:34 AM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d8288a470/article/mike-mayocks-top-100-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings

Some of the interesting ones of note:

6. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College
7. Mark Barron, SS, Alabama
8. Stephon Gilmore, CB, South Carolina
9. Chandler Jones, DE, Syracuse

13. Dontari Poe, DT, Memphis
14. Shea McClellin, OLB, Boise State
15. Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama
17. Doug Martin, RB, Boise State

Around our first round:
23. Courtney Upshaw, DE, Alabama
24. David DeCastro, G, Stanford
25. Cordy Glenn, OT, Georgia
26. Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State
27. Dre Kirkpatrick, CB, Alabama
28. Harrison Smith, SS, Notre Dame
29. Michael Brockers, DT, LSU
30. Vinny Curry, DE, Marshall

around our 2nd round pick:
55. Janoris Jenkins, CB, North Alabama
56. Kendall Reyes, DT, Connecticut
57. A.J. Jenkins, WR, Illinois
58. Josh Norman, CB, Coastal Carolina
59. Derek Wolfe, DT, Cincinnati
60. T.Y. Hilton, WR, Florida International
61. Brandon Boykin, CB, Georgia
62. Mitchell Schwartz, OT, California
63. Rueben Randle, WR, LSU

longer list around 87:
81. Sean Spence, OLB, Miami
82. Lamar Miller, RB, Miami
83. Billy Winn, DE, Boise State
84. Jonathan Massaquoi, DE, Troy
85. Ben Jones, C, Georgia
86. Demario Davis, OLB, Arkansas State
87. Leonard Johnson, CB, Iowa State
88. Bernard Pierce, RB, Temple
89. Marvin Jones, WR, California
90. Jamell Fleming, CB, Oklahoma
91. Mohamed Sanu, WR, Rutgers
92. Orson Charles, TE, Georgia
93. Chris Polk, RB, Washington

While I agree that there are issues with the list, I still think Mayock is the best big name evaluator out there. There's no evaluator in the world who isn't going to completely misjudge a few guys every year.

From that list (only guys listed near our picks) I would love to see:

25- David DeCastro, OG - Would be a complete steal at #25 and by far the BPA
57- Derek Wolfe, DT- I think he'll be a solid rotational guy from the get go. Probably will never be a world beater, but probably won't bust completely either. Safe, solid 2nd round pick.

87-Sean Spence, LB- I love this guy. Undersized, but just a great football player.

ludo21
04-24-2012, 09:56 AM
I want Chandler Jones now

Rohirrim
04-24-2012, 10:04 AM
If Reuben Randle is still on the board when the Broncos 2nd round pick comes up and they don't take him, I shave my head and move to a monastery. Randle goes in the first round. Book it.

Rohirrim
04-24-2012, 10:09 AM
Hell, Troy Polamalu was drafted at #16. Mayock has Barron at #7 value? Come on, man!

wolf754life
04-24-2012, 10:11 AM
While I agree that there are issues with the list, I still think Mayock is the best big name evaluator out there. There's no evaluator in the world who isn't going to completely misjudge a few guys every year.

From that list (only guys listed near our picks) I would love to see:

25- David DeCastro, OG - Would be a complete steal at #25 and by far the BPA
57- Derek Wolfe, DT- I think he'll be a solid rotational guy from the get go. Probably will never be a world beater, but probably won't bust completely either. Safe, solid 2nd round pick.

87-Sean Spence, LB- I love this guy. Undersized, but just a great football player.

McShay owns him

socalorado
04-24-2012, 10:16 AM
Lol you're crazy

Right, sure. Cause crappatrick is falling off folks boards and hes behind Gilmore.
Eventually your gonna have to climb down from inside his onion and face the reality that crappatrick isnt worth the poop on the bottom of your shoe.

Now watch. DEN will draft him. ugh. Hilarious!

SpringStein
04-24-2012, 10:29 AM
What's fletcher cox ranked? De Castro is gonna make one QB in this league very happy

#11

Heyneck
04-24-2012, 10:30 AM
McShay owns him

hell no!!!

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 10:31 AM
Right, sure. Cause crappatrick is falling off folks boards and hes behind Gilmore.
Eventually your gonna have to climb down from inside his onion and face the reality that crappatrick isnt worth the poop on the bottom of your shoe.

Now watch. DEN will draft him. ugh. Hilarious!

LOL Post ANYYYYYYYYYYYYYY evidence of this

In fact, post any evidence knocking him. All you've done is come up with a cute nickname for him and slam him without any supporting information for why you feel that way.

Kinda sad, if anything

montrose
04-24-2012, 10:32 AM
I like Mayock's 2009 board!

1. Eugene Monroe, OT, Virginia
2. Michael Crabtree, WR, Texas Tech
3. Robert Ayers, DE, Tennessee
4. Knowshon Moreno, RB, Georgia
5. Percy Harvin, WR, Florida

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id=09000d5d80d41b6d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

In all fairness though, the 2009 1st round was craptacular - Hell we should be happy with Knowshon and Ayers' production compared to some of these other picks! http://www.mynfldraft.com/2009-NFL-Draft-Results/

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 10:36 AM
I like Mayock's 2009 board!

1. Eugene Monroe, OT, Virginia
2. Michael Crabtree, WR, Texas Tech
3. Robert Ayers, DE, Tennessee
4. Knowshon Moreno, RB, Georgia
5. Percy Harvin, WR, Florida

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id=09000d5d80d41b6d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

In all fairness though, the 2009 1st round was craptacular - Hell we should be happy with Knowshon and Ayers' production compared to some of these other picks! http://www.mynfldraft.com/2009-NFL-Draft-Results/

I saw you say that a day or two ago on facebook or twitter or something and I have to disagree.

Nearly all of the first round picks are starters... multi year starters in fact. The first round alone has produced 6 probowlers and 3 All-Pros in only 3 years of playtime.

That's pretty far from lackluster, imo.

montrose
04-24-2012, 10:51 AM
I saw you say that a day or two ago on facebook or twitter or something and I have to disagree.

Nearly all of the first round picks are starters... multi year starters in fact. The first round alone has produced 6 probowlers and 3 All-Pros in only 3 years of playtime.

That's pretty far from lackluster, imo.

But Rev look at the value of some of the guys in comparison to where they were picked. Smith and Jackson went #2 and #3 overall and the best we can say for them is they're starters - in fact they had to take paycuts or they'd be released. Curry went #4 and he's already been cut, #5 Sanchez has QB'ed the Jets to 2 AFCCGs and they think so highly of him they brought in Tim. Obviously some guys were big hits like Raji, Orakpo and Matthews but mostly it was the middle-to-bottom of Rd 1 that seemed to produce the better picks. The top 10 looks brutal.

underrated29
04-24-2012, 10:54 AM
I might have to agree with you socal.....i started checking out some of kirkpatrick and I have some worries. Love how physical he is on against the run. But as a shut down corner I do not see it. I havent seen him blanket any wr yet. I see them catch passes on him, or he breaks up poorly thrown balls.


I am not going to put captain kirk in middlebrooks status yet, but he does seem to be like harris..great tackler, but the player makes the catch usually on him.


further eval is needed.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 10:55 AM
But Rev look at the value of some of the guys in comparison to where they were picked. Smith and Jackson went #2 and #3 overall and the best we can say for them is they're starters - in fact they had to take paycuts or they'd be released. Curry went #4 and he's already been cut, #5 Sanchez has QB'ed the Jets to 2 AFCCGs and they think so highly of him they brought in Tim. Obviously some guys were big hits like Raji, Orakpo and Matthews but mostly it was the middle-to-bottom of Rd 1 that seemed to produce the better picks. The top 10 looks brutal.

Hahah, can't argue with that... but our picks were smack in the middle of that middle-to-bottom of Rd 1 that "seemed to produce the better picks"

pricejj
04-24-2012, 10:59 AM
Post ANYYYYYYYYYYYYYY evidence of this


You may or may not be interested in the fact that the only starting CB in the NFL who runs slower than a 4.50 forty is Brent Grimes UDFA from Atlanta. Kirkpatrick's forty was 4.51.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 11:15 AM
You may or may not be interested in the fact that the only starting CB in the NFL who runs slower than a 4.50 forty is Brent Grimes UDFA from Atlanta. Kirkpatrick's forty was 4.51.

I am interested. Because its not true... Off the TOP OF MY HEAD, Joe Haden ran a 4.58 and is also a starter... which immediately debunks the bull**** of your post.

PS. Claiborne ran the same on the same surface but can't jam like Dre.

gunns
04-24-2012, 11:20 AM
The only two players that I hear or read consistently good things about from draft pundits or football sites is Kuechly and Barron. And we could use both.

gunns
04-24-2012, 11:23 AM
I am interested. Because its not true... Off the TOP OF MY HEAD, Joe Haden ran a 4.58 and is also a starter... which immediately debunks the bull**** of your post.

PS. Claiborne ran the same on the same surface but can't jam like Dre.

That was at the combine for Haden. At Florida's pro day he ran 4.43

errand
04-24-2012, 11:24 AM
So Mike has Gilmore as his 2nd rated CB behind Claibourne.
I'm tellin ya, Crappatrick is gonna be a bust.
He looks good when surrounded by super-star talent, but hes
really an average player at best.

And some think that playing against better players everyday in practice will make them better overall players...you know, the whole level of competition thing.....not to mention, who doesn't look good surrounded by super-star talent?

some people doubted Patrick Peterson's abilities too...and he has to date been a very productive player for Cardinals. Some thought JaMarcus Russell was all that and a bag of chips....but, well, we know what happened there.

not saying you're right or wrong in your assessment of his talent, just saying maybe we ought to just wait and see

pricejj
04-24-2012, 11:25 AM
I am interested. Because its not true... Off the TOP OF MY HEAD, Joe Haden ran a 4.58 and is also a starter... which immediately debunks the bull**** of your post.

PS. Claiborne ran the same on the same surface but can't jam like Dre.

Not true.

Joe Haden averaged a 4.43 at his Pro Day.
Morris Claiborne averaged a 4.43 at his Pro Day.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 11:27 AM
Yikes, looks we can add:

Brandon Flowers
Terrence McGee
Brandon Browner
Corey Webster
Malcolm Jenkins
Antrell Rolle (swapped to safety but spent most of last season locked up in man on slot WRs)

And this is just all at a very cursory glance of current starters.

Pretty full of **** arent you, price?

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 11:28 AM
Not true.

Joe Haden averaged a 4.43 at his Pro Day.
Morris Claiborne averaged a 4.43 at his Pro Day.

lol okay. So we'll just ignore different surfaces and prep time.

Cool Hilarious!

errand
04-24-2012, 11:29 AM
I might have to agree with you socal.....i started checking out some of kirkpatrick and I have some worries. Love how physical he is on against the run. But as a shut down corner I do not see it. I havent seen him blanket any wr yet. I see them catch passes on him, or he breaks up poorly thrown balls.


I am not going to put captain kirk in middlebrooks status yet, but he does seem to be like harris..great tackler, but the player makes the catch usually on him.


further eval is needed.

and of course that is assuming he'll play CB in the NFL, and not Safety......

Teams draft DT's to play end in their 3-4 schemes and DE's to play OLB in them....others draft athletic QB's dreaming of some kind of wild-cat package to implement. Just saying we have no idea if the Broncos would draft Kirkpatrick as a CB or move him to safety....which was a bit of an eye sore on occasion this past season.

errand
04-24-2012, 11:33 AM
Here's some of the fastest 40 times ever recorded....

http://www.gridironstuds.com/blog/the-fastest-40-yard-dash-ever/



1 Bo Jackson Auburn Tigers 4.12
2 Michael Bennett Minnesota Vikings 4.13
3 Alexander Wright Dallas Cowboys 4.14
4 Darrell Green Washington Redskins 4.15
5 Ahman Green Nebraska Cornhuskers 4.17
6 Joey Galloway Ohio St. Buckeyes 4.18
7 Henry Neal Blinn JC 4.2
8 Deion Sanders Florida St. Seminoles 4.21
9 Kevin Curtis Utah Utes 4.21
10 Don Beebe Buffalo Bills 4.21
11 Donte Stallworth Tennessee Volunteers 4.22
12 Willie Parker North Carolina Tar Heels 4.23
13 Clayton Holmes Dallas Cowboys 4.23 added 1/11/12
14 Rondel Melendez Eastern Kentucky (1999) 4.24
15 Chris Johnson East Carolina Pirates 4.24
16 Taylor Mays USC 4.24
17 Ike Taylor Pittsburgh Steelers 4.25 added 1/11/12
18 Randy Moss Marshall University 4.25
19 Michael Vick Virginia Tech Hokies 4.25
20 Jerome Mathis Hampton 4.25
21 Sam Shields University of Miami (Packers) 4.25
22 Devin Hester University of Miami 4.27
23 Darren McFadden Arkansas Razorbacks 4.27
24 James Jett West Virginia 4.27
25 Jacoby Ford Clemson Tigers 4.27
26 Trindon Holliday LSU 4.27
27 DeMarcus Van Dyke University of Miami 4.28
28 Kevin Williams University of Miami 4.28
29 Champ Bailey Georgia Bulldogs 4.28
30 CJ Spiller Clemson Tigers 4.28
31 Raghib Ismail Notre Dame Fighting Irish 4.28
32 Walter Sutton SW Minnesota St. 4.28
33 Rod Woodson Purdue Boilermakers 4.28 added 1/11/12
34 Standord Routt University of Houston (2005) 4.29
35 Fabian Washington Nebraska Cornhuskers 4.29
36 Laveranues Coles Florida St. Seminoles 4.29
37 James Williams Fresno St. 4.29
38 Gaston Green UCLA 4.29
39 Johnny Knox Abiliene Christian (Chi. Bears) 4.29

Bronco Boy
04-24-2012, 11:40 AM
Charles Tillman ran a 4.5 40. Pro Bowler.

underrated29
04-24-2012, 11:41 AM
and of course that is assuming he'll play CB in the NFL, and not Safety......

Teams draft DT's to play end in their 3-4 schemes and DE's to play OLB in them....others draft athletic QB's dreaming of some kind of wild-cat package to implement. Just saying we have no idea if the Broncos would draft Kirkpatrick as a CB or move him to safety....which was a bit of an eye sore on occasion this past season.



quite true.

I still like PP better at saftey, he did start coming along nearer the end of the season, and might jump to a good solid cb. I think he could be all world at S... Same could be said for capt. kirk.

or he might just be legit enough at corner. I like PP more at corner, but PP is a much better prospect too, so its not exactly a fair comparison. I would hope that we just keep him at CB. I still need to check this guy out though.


what do you all think about my initial views on the guy? Solid in run,jamming, physicality, questionable as a cover guy, blanketing one on one...etc.? Did anyone see this?

Bronco Boy
04-24-2012, 11:43 AM
Also Brandon Browner ran slower than a 4.5. Pro Bowler.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 11:46 AM
Yikes, looks we can add:

Brandon Flowers - you are correct, 2nd round pick
Terrence McGee - not a starter, 4th round pick
Brandon Browner - out of the league for 6 years until 2011?, UDFA
Corey Webster - 4.50 is faster than Kirkpatrick, 2nd round pick
Malcolm Jenkins - 4.51 is same as Kirkpatrick, 1st round pick
Antrell Rolle - 4.48 is faster than Kirkpatrick


Well, you have a guy on this list who is slower than Kirkpatrick, who is a starter (Brandon Flowers), but was a 2nd rounder. And you have Malcolm Jenkins, who ran the same speed as Kirkpatrick....so the list grows. I am not giving you Browner...I have no clue what happened with that guy's career.

Starting NFL CB's who run a 4.51 or slower:
1. Brent Grimes - UDFA
2. Brandon Flowers - UDFA, out of league for 6 years
2. Brandon Flowers - 2nd round pick
3. Malcolm Jenkins - 1st round pick

pricejj
04-24-2012, 11:52 AM
...
Charles Tillman - 4.48, 2nd rounder

errand
04-24-2012, 11:53 AM
Solid in run,jamming, physicality, questionable as a cover guy, blanketing one on one...etc.? Did anyone see this?

sounds alot like these two guys........


30737



No way we want that kind of player playing safety on our team, right?

Drek
04-24-2012, 11:55 AM
Not true.

Joe Haden averaged a 4.43 at his Pro Day.
Morris Claiborne averaged a 4.43 at his Pro Day.

Kirkpatrick didn't run at his pro day. So Joe Haden picks up .15 seconds on his 40 time from combine to pro day and that's ok, but Kirkpatrick runs a combine 40 that is smack dab in between Haden's combine and pro day and he's the slow one?

Claiborne picked up .07 combine to pro day.
Last year Aaron Williams picked up .15 combine to pro day.
Earl Thomas picked up .06 combine to pro day.
Kyle Wilson only ran at his pro day, put up a 4.43 as well.
Antonio Cromartie picked up .09 combine to pro day.
Only one early round player in the last decade has actually ran slower at his pro day than at the combine, Malcolm Jenkins.

Chris Camble ran a 4.52 at his pro day, didn't run at the combine. He's been a starter for all eight years he's been in the league. A pretty good one too.

Chris McCalister, Fernando Bryant, and Dre Bly ran 4.53, 4.50, 4.51 respectively. McCalister and Bryant each started their first eight years straight in the league. Bly didn't start until year 4 but then started seven straight seasons.

If you use an average combine to pro day adjustment Kirkpatricks' 40 time falls into the low 4.4's. Regardless of whatever the number is though, it is quite clear that a corner can succeed in the NFL even if he runs a 4.5 40.

Bronco Boy
04-24-2012, 11:59 AM
Charles Tillman - 4.48, Pro Bowler

Fixed your post.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:00 PM
Kirkpatrick didn't run at his pro day.

Why not? Many CB's ran slower at their Pro Day, than at the Combine. ALL of the Alabama players had slow Pro Day's...so maybe it has something to do with their track?

Thanks for posting times of all the former players...good discussion.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:01 PM
Fixed your post.

Tillman is faster than Kirkpatrick

errand
04-24-2012, 12:03 PM
Well, you have a guy on this list who is slower than Kirkpatrick, who is a starter (Brandon Flowers), but was a 2nd rounder. And you have Malcolm Jenkins, who ran the same speed as Kirkpatrick....so the list grows. I am not giving you Browner...I have no clue what happened with that guy's career.

Starting NFL CB's who run a 4.51 or slower:
1. Brent Grimes - UDFA
2. Brandon Flowers - UDFA, out of league for 6 years
2. Brandon Flowers - 2nd round pick
3. Malcolm Jenkins - 1st round pick

Javier Arenas, the chiefs nickle back ran a 4.59.....just saying.

He's played rather well so far.......considering he's not a starter, but he has 76 career tackles, 1 FF, 14 PD, 2 INT's and 4 sacks in his two seasons so far. again, a fast 40 time isn't the be all end all of how well a player will perform in the NFL.

errand
04-24-2012, 12:06 PM
"If I gotta chase a guy 40 yards, I ain't gonna catch him no how...." - Louie Kelcher, on the importance of 40 times

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:06 PM
... it is quite clear that a corner can succeed in the NFL even if he runs a 4.5 40.

But only Malcolm Jenkins was a 1st round pick.

This may be a good time to bring up Kirkpatrick's lack of fluidity, and short arms?

razorwire77
04-24-2012, 12:08 PM
If you watch game tape, Kirkpatrick is plenty fast enough. He doesn't have elite CB speed, but he's really physical off of the snap. The modern NFL passing game is all about timing and match up exploitation either via man coverage (tall WR vs. small DB) or exploiting small tight windows in zones. Having a physical CB that can maul smallish slot receivers the first couple of yards into a route and disrupt the timing of their routes would be invaluable.

Kirkpatrick would be a huge upgrade from anyone (sans Champ) that we've had on this team in years in this capacity.

DT should be priority # 1, but I don't think you reach and draft a project DT in the 1st round, if a plug and play physical DB like Dre is sitting there at 25.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:10 PM
Javier Arenas, the chiefs nickle back ran a 4.59.....just saying.

He's played rather well so far.......considering he's not a starter, but he has 76 career tackles, 1 FF, 14 PD, 2 INT's and 4 sacks in his two seasons so far. again, a fast 40 time isn't the be all end all of how well a player will perform in the NFL.

If you draft a guy in the 1st round, you would hope he can at least guard the #2 receiver, and be a full-time starter.

Chris Harris runs a 4.48, and played well last year...not even sure why we would draft a Nickel CB at #25 anyway.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:13 PM
If you watch game tape, Kirkpatrick is plenty fast enough. He doesn't have elite CB speed, but he's really physical off of the snap. The modern NFL passing game is all about timing and match up exploitation either via man coverage (tall WR vs. small DB) or exploiting small tight windows in zones. Having a physical CB that can maul smallish slot receivers the first couple of yards into a route and disrupt the timing of their routes would be invaluable.

Kirkpatrick would be a huge upgrade from anyone (sans Champ) that we've had on this team in years in this capacity.

DT should be priority # 1, but I don't think you reach and draft a project DT in the 1st round, if a plug and play physical DB like Dre is sitting there at 25.

Alright...all the banter has convinced me not to jump off a cliff if Kirkpatrick is picked at #25. I would rather they pick someone else, but he may be pretty valuable.

Thanks guys. :sunshine:

houghtam
04-24-2012, 12:18 PM
But only Malcolm Jenkins was a 1st round pick.

This may be a good time to bring up Kirkpatrick's lack of fluidity, and short arms?

Probably also just as good a time as any to bring up that he was a starting CB on the national championship team, which led the NCAA in many passing categories.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:31 PM
Probably also just as good a time as any to bring up that he was a starting CB on the national championship team, which led the NCAA in many passing categories.

I was holding it back, but now that I think about it, Alabama played against Jordan Jefferson (LSU) in the BCS championship...who was chucking and ducking throughout the game.

In fact, the only QB worthy of mention that they faced all year was Tyler Wilson (Arkansas), who went 22/35 for 185 yards, 2 TD's, and a 120 passer rating.

Just wondering if he is really worth the 25th pick...that's all.

errand
04-24-2012, 12:34 PM
If you draft a guy in the 1st round, you would hope he can at least guard the #2 receiver, and be a full-time starter.

I agree.....but if that guy could become a starter and cover the opposing team's #2 WR, would it matter that he runs a 4.5-4.6 40 ?

Chris Harris runs a 4.48, and played well last year...not even sure why we would draft a Nickel CB at #25 anyway.

Never said we should draft a nickle back @ #25 overall.....just pointed out that the chiefs nickleback ran a 4.59 forty, and he seems to be a decent player.




in bold

Chris
04-24-2012, 12:38 PM
Ranking players based on perceived ability doesn't tell you where they'll fall. It's about scheme fit and in some cases need.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:40 PM
No, it doesn't matter what the 40 time is, if Kirkpatrick is effective...but that's the question. Will he be good/great?

It also may be worthy of note, that the Saints (Malcolm Jenkins) are ranked 30th in the NFL against the pass.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 12:42 PM
No, it doesn't matter what the 40 time is, if Kirkpatrick is effective...but that's the question. Will he be good/great?

It also may be worthy of note, that the Saints (Malcolm Jenkins) are ranked 30th in the NFL against the pass.

And Alabama smashed nearly every pass D stat.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 12:44 PM
Well, you have a guy on this list who is slower than Kirkpatrick, who is a starter (Brandon Flowers), but was a 2nd rounder. And you have Malcolm Jenkins, who ran the same speed as Kirkpatrick....so the list grows. I am not giving you Browner...I have no clue what happened with that guy's career.

Starting NFL CB's who run a 4.51 or slower:
1. Brent Grimes - UDFA
2. Brandon Flowers - UDFA, out of league for 6 years
2. Brandon Flowers - 2nd round pick
3. Malcolm Jenkins - 1st round pick

(See Avy)

Did you forget that you're the one who chose the qualifier of "starter"... not me.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 12:44 PM
No, it doesn't matter what the 40 time is, if Kirkpatrick is effective...but that's the question. Will he be good/great?

It also may be worthy of note, that the Saints (Malcolm Jenkins) are ranked 30th in the NFL against the pass.

Well at least it's good to see you're willing to change your opinion when people prove you wrong.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 12:46 PM
Well at least it's good to see you're willing to change your opinion when people prove you wrong.

His opinion changes more than Midwestern weather.

g6matty
04-24-2012, 12:50 PM
notice the gap between lamar miller and doug martin. and cecil lammey tweeting the broncos like lamar more. hm

houghtam
04-24-2012, 12:52 PM
His opinion changes more than Midwestern weather.

Well if JaDereKendall CReyeWolfe ends up being the best DT in the draft, he'll have the last laugh.

LOL

pricejj
04-24-2012, 12:54 PM
Just like any of you guys, I am vetting every single aspect of these players. The back-and-forth is great. I value your opinions and information. Elway says they reach a consensus on who to draft...it's a good philosophy.

#25: a. Hightower b. Konz, c. Wright
#57: trade up for: a: Wolfe b. Thompson (using #108).

Expected outcome of my mock:
#25: Konz
#47: Wolfe


I will be fine, as long as we don't overdraft a DT in the 1st (Still, Worthy, Reyes)

Chris
04-24-2012, 01:00 PM
Based on the little video I've seen he looks like a safety. The dude can HIT and make things happen.

Drek
04-24-2012, 01:01 PM
But only Malcolm Jenkins was a 1st round pick.
This is only your view based upon cherry picking the sample size.

If you throw out the highly subjective pro days where guys run on different surfaces in different weather with hand timed 40's and instead rely on same track, in door, laser timed numbers taken from the NFL combine you open up the field a bit more. If you take it back to about 1999 or so you open it up further. These guys all fit the >4.49 40 but taken in the first round criteria:
Joe Haden - 7th overall
Malcolm Jenkins - 14th overall
Antrel Rolle - 8th overall
Chris Gamble - 28th overall
Chris McCalister - 10th overall
Fernando Bryant - 26th overall

Notice a trend here? Every one of these guys were or still are quality starters for a prolonged period.

This may be a good time to bring up Kirkpatrick's lack of fluidity, and short arms?
Every CB over 6'1" gets accused of a "lack of fluidity". So big guys can't move quite as fluidly as a shorter guy. Does Kirkpatrick backpedal as smooth as smaller guys? Yup. Does he turn and follow quick enough to keep up with anyone? Yup. As for his arm length, his arms are actually a big long for his height by normal human standards, and are only an inch or two shorter than peers with similar height.

Kirkpatrick is, to me, a very analogous player to Chris Gamble but with more toughness, better tackling, and better at working guys off the line. He's also a touch taller. Carolina seems pretty happy with Gamble's production with them over the last eight seasons. I bet we would feel about the same way with Kirkpatrick if we landed him at #25.

Play2win
04-24-2012, 01:01 PM
The only two players that I hear or read consistently good things about from draft pundits or football sites is Kuechly and Barron. And we could use both.

:pray:

pricejj
04-24-2012, 01:14 PM
This is only your view based upon cherry picking the sample size.

If you throw out the highly subjective pro days where guys run on different surfaces in different weather with hand timed 40's and instead rely on same track, in door, laser timed numbers taken from the NFL combine you open up the field a bit more. If you take it back to about 1999 or so you open it up further. These guys all fit the >4.49 40 but taken in the first round criteria:
Joe Haden - 7th overall
Malcolm Jenkins - 14th overall
Antrel Rolle - 8th overall
Chris Gamble - 28th overall
Chris McCalister - 10th overall
Fernando Bryant - 26th overall

Notice a trend here? Every one of these guys were or still are quality starters for a prolonged period.


Every CB over 6'1" gets accused of a "lack of fluidity". So big guys can't move quite as fluidly as a shorter guy. Does Kirkpatrick backpedal as smooth as smaller guys? Yup. Does he turn and follow quick enough to keep up with anyone? Yup. As for his arm length, his arms are actually a big long for his height by normal human standards, and are only an inch or two shorter than peers with similar height.

Kirkpatrick is, to me, a very analogous player to Chris Gamble but with more toughness, better tackling, and better at working guys off the line. He's also a touch taller. Carolina seems pretty happy with Gamble's production with them over the last eight seasons. I bet we would feel about the same way with Kirkpatrick if we landed him at #25.

Well, I will never discount Pro Day results, and I don't buy that his backpedal is as smooth as other prospects. A first round pick should be a Pro Bowler at some point in their career. Will Kirkpatrick be a great player? If not, they can surely find an All-Pro at #25.

1. I can guarantee you Kevin Zeitler will be a Pro Bowler.
2. I can almost guarantee you that Peter Konz will be a Pro Bowler.

Especially considering, Kirkpatrick would only play Nickle CB this year, and would be replacing Chris Harris, who is not a bad player. I contend that the majority of the Defensive issues last year came from 1. Learning a new system 2. Horrible Safety play at the end of the year 3. A lack of consistent pass-rush.

Well, the Broncos upgraded Defensive Coordinator (JDR), upgraded CB (Porter), added a decent FS (Adams), lost Dawkins, and hopefully Carter plays consistently good. I don't know that adding Kirkpatrick at Nickle CB (over Harris) will help us win any more games.

That being said, thanks for talking me off the ledge. I will not be screaming on this board if they do pick Kirkpatrick. I will be hoping that he is the elite player, that you and Rev claim he is.

Drek
04-24-2012, 02:05 PM
Well, I will never discount Pro Day results,
You should when it comes to 40 times. Its apples to oranges. Comparing them is like comparing collegiate production from different conferences minus any frame of reference that you normally get (no schedules available at all, no names attached to the conferences, no guarantee that both even played D1A ball).

and I don't buy that his backpedal is as smooth as other prospects.
Thats nice. At the combine it sure looked pretty damn smooth. Not Patrick Peterson smooth, but better than most of the draft class, including guys much shorter than him. He has the natural athleticism to play on an island in the NFL. The only part of his game really lacking is clearly develop man cover skills/mental awareness. He's more comfortable in a zone at this point.

A first round pick should be a Pro Bowler at some point in their career. Will Kirkpatrick be a great player? If not, they can surely find an All-Pro at #25.
I'd say first and foremost your late 1st rounders need to be contributors, not necessarily pro bowlers. If you set that standard then you'll wind up picking a lot of boom/bust guys and that is a risky proposition to engage in.

Kirkpatrick could be a pro bowl player at some point, he also very well might not. But the odds are strongly in his favor of at least being a solid starter (low bust factor) and the chances he becomes a pro bowler are at least equal to, if not better than, the chances he busts completely. I'd take that proposition for a late first.

1. I can guarantee you Kevin Zeitler will be a Pro Bowler.
2. I can almost guarantee you that Peter Konz will be a Pro Bowler.

When you consider that Zeitler would be vastly improving a shaky OG situation (Beadles sucks, Kuper is hurt). Or that Konz would be replacing the worst Center in the NFL....you may realize my point.
So your first solution to landing a pro bowler at #25 is overdrafting a heavy footed guard who specializes in drive blocking for up the gut runners and start him in an offense that loves pulling guards. Awesome.

Your second solution is a guy who looks a hell of a lot like our current center, but unlike our current guy didn't come out in a "Pouncey year". Technically solid C who doesn't show great functional power, gets beat up by powerful bull rushers, and lacks the quickness to help out down field in the running game.

Is Konz better than Walton? Sure, by a good amount. All the flaws are less pronounced. But if you think he's a pro-bowl center out of the AFC when Mangold, Pouncey, and Mack aren't going anywhere for a while I don't know what to tell you. Konz' ceiling isn't that high, he's just got a damn high floor. If his ceiling was that high he'd be talked about as a mid-teens pick like both Pouncey boys, now that teams are valuing center more in the draft. Instead he's expected to go in the 20's, where teams were taking centers when everyone was undervaluing the interior OL on draft day. Why do you think that is?

Especially considering, Kirkpatrick would only play Nickle CB this year, and would be replacing Chris Harris, who is not a bad player.
If we got Kirkpatrick he'd probably play #2 CB on the wing with Porter playing nickel and Harris seeing a good amount of work at dime and situation usage as a safety (he played both in college). Between Harris and Kirkpatrick we would actually be able to go 5 deep with defensive backs before looking thin, which is a requirement in today's NFL. It also protects us for the inevitable end of Bailey's career.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 03:19 PM
You should when it comes to 40 times. Its apples to oranges. Comparing them is like comparing collegiate production from different conferences minus any frame of reference that you normally get (no schedules available at all, no names attached to the conferences, no guarantee that both even played D1A ball).

Maybe Kirkpatrick knew that the Alabama field is slow, so chose not to run at the Pro Day, just to post a lower time. I'll give you that

Thats nice. At the combine it sure looked pretty damn smooth. Not Patrick Peterson smooth, but better than most of the draft class, including guys much shorter than him. He has the natural athleticism to play on an island in the NFL. The only part of his game really lacking is clearly develop man cover skills/mental awareness. He's more comfortable in a zone at this point.

I read that his backpedal wasn't great at his Pro Day, but after checking out some more scouting websites, it appears that his footwork is actually pretty good for a guy his size. I'll give you that too.


I'd say first and foremost your late 1st rounders need to be contributors, not necessarily pro bowlers. If you set that standard then you'll wind up picking a lot of boom/bust guys and that is a risky proposition to engage in.

The key is knowing what positions to find the best players in your draft slot, and what round to pick what positions. Elite QB's, OT's, and DT's can generally be found high in the 1st (although they may bust). #25 is not a good spot to be picking either QB's or DT's. Elite OG's, and MLB's can generally be found low in the 1st. The #25 overall selection is a great spot to be picking Elite interior OL, WR's, RB's, or the best TE.

Kirkpatrick could be a pro bowl player at some point, he also very well might not. But the odds are strongly in his favor of at least being a solid starter (low bust factor) and the chances he becomes a pro bowler are at least equal to, if not better than, the chances he busts completely. I'd take that proposition for a late first.

I don't think Kirkpatrick's chances of being a Pro Bowler are very high. He doesn't have elite speed, and only had 3 career INT's. I don't even know if his chances of cracking the starting lineup are that high. Can he consistently guard #2 WR's? Big question. Plus he is almost strictly a zone guy, right now, which also drops his value.


So your first solution to landing a pro bowler at #25 is overdrafting a heavy footed guard who specializes in drive blocking for up the gut runners and start him in an offense that loves pulling guards. Awesome.

I don't think that's a fair representation of Zeitler's ability. He did his fair share of pulling and pass protecting at Wisconsin, while they dominated the Big 10. Kuper is not the answer at RG, he is too light, not quite strong enough, and is injured. Beadles may work out, but hasn't performed well so far. I would find better value with Brandon Brooks (OG) in the 2nd. However, Zeitler is probably just as technically sound as DeCastro, yet a little less athletic.

Your second solution is a guy who looks a hell of a lot like our current center, but unlike our current guy didn't come out in a "Pouncey year". Technically solid C who doesn't show great functional power, gets beat up by powerful bull rushers, and lacks the quickness to help out down field in the running game.

J.D. Walton would have been a 5th round prospect in any year. The Broncos seriously reached by selecting him in the 3rd. As for Konz, you're right, he is technically solid. He also has just as much functional power (23 reps) as Mangold (24 reps), or Pouncey (25 reps). Alex Mack had 20 reps. He doesn't get "beat up by bull rushers"...neither Still, nor Worthy did much of anything against Wisconsin. As for quickness, I would venture to say that he has just as much, if not more athletic ability than the Pouncey's or Mangold. I believe he is a better prospect than either Pouncey, and the best Center prospect since Mangold (2006).

Is Konz better than Walton? Sure, by a good amount. All the flaws are less pronounced. But if you think he's a pro-bowl center out of the AFC when Mangold, Pouncey, and Mack aren't going anywhere for a while I don't know what to tell you. Konz' ceiling isn't that high, he's just got a damn high floor. If his ceiling was that high he'd be talked about as a mid-teens pick like both Pouncey boys, now that teams are valuing center more in the draft. Instead he's expected to go in the 20's, where teams were taking centers when everyone was undervaluing the interior OL on draft day. Why do you think that is?

For starters, it isn't just that Konz is better than Walton, Walton is the worst Center in the NFL. I challenge you to find any other positions on the Broncos where the starter is the worst in the NFL (Beadles comes close, 4th worst). OT's are more valuable than OG's, who are more valuable than Centers...those are the facts. There has been a ton of chatter about Defense at the top of this draft. All teams, like the Broncos, are trying to figure out how to beat the Patriots, Packers, and Saints of the world. The logical conclusion, is to grab an elite QB (like Peyton Manning), or bolster the Defense. Decastro (the best Offensive Lineman in the draft), and one of the best interior OL in years, is being discussed as low as the 20th pick. Maurkice Pouncey was selected 18th overall, by the Steelers, a team known for highly valuing Offensive and Defensive Lineman in the 1st round. At a contrast, the Broncos have only drafted 2 Offensive Lineman in the 1st round in the last 29 years (Ryan Clady, George Foster). The Steelers have also won 3 Super Bowls in the last 10 years. To suggest that Centers are popping off the board above #20 in recent drafts is baloney.

Maurkice Pouncey - #18 overall, 2010
Alex Mack - #21 overall, 2009
Nick Mangold - #29 overall, 2006

Peter Konz would be every bit the value of the #25 overall pick, and you know it.


If we got Kirkpatrick he'd probably play #2 CB on the wing with Porter playing nickel and Harris seeing a good amount of work at dime and situation usage as a safety (he played both in college). Between Harris and Kirkpatrick we would actually be able to go 5 deep with defensive backs before looking thin, which is a requirement in today's NFL. It also protects us for the inevitable end of Bailey's career.

I like the idea of Harris moving to Safety eventually. Kirkpatrick would make a heckuva SS. When Bailey retire's, the Broncos will need another #1 CB. Kirkpatrick will never be that, which is why I don't think it's a good idea to draft him at #25. Wouldn't it make more sense to draft a Pro Bowl interior OL, than overdraft a Nickel CB?

Tombstone RJ
04-24-2012, 03:23 PM
The thing about Kirpatrick is IF he doesn't pan out as a CB (which is pure speculation) then move his azz to safety. Have him put on a few pounds and move him to safety.

Can he tackle?

pricejj
04-24-2012, 07:00 PM
Malcolm Jenkins


Malcolm Jenkins is a SAFETY.



Dre Kirkpatrick would be the SLOWEST starting CB picked in the 1st round. It just doesn't happen. If they pick Kirkpatrick to play SS, I'm fine with that...but he will never be a great CB in the NFL.

Requiem
04-24-2012, 07:02 PM
It would be free safety.

Drek
04-24-2012, 07:09 PM
Malcolm Jenkins is a SAFETY.



Dre Kirkpatrick would be the SLOWEST starting CB picked in the 1st round. It just doesn't happen. If they pick Kirkpatrick to play SS, I'm fine with that...but he will never be a great CB in the NFL.

Except for Joe Haden, Chris McCalister, and Chris Gamble. Just to name a couple.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-24-2012, 07:44 PM
Kirkpatrick ran a dominantcornerbackinthetoughestdivisionincollege in the fourty.

cutthemdown
04-24-2012, 08:03 PM
I'm really hoping Broncos get DeCastro somehow. I really think he is the one can't miss guy on the oline or dline in this draft. He could slide right in and start first practice. He's so much better then Beadles, and probably better the Kuper also.

If the Broncos had to give up a 3rd round pick to move up for Decastro, I bet it would still pay off. He's that good.

Tim
04-24-2012, 08:27 PM
I'm sitting here laughing at some of you jokers who are experts on CB's after watching a youtube highlight vid.:sunshine:

pricejj
04-24-2012, 08:42 PM
Except for Joe Haden, Chris McCalister, and Chris Gamble. Just to name a couple.

Again:

Joe Haden - 4.43
Chris McAlister - is retired, Pro Day results aren't available
Chris Gamble - #28 overall...yes we have a winner!

Thanks Drek you found one :sunshine:

barryr
04-24-2012, 08:53 PM
I'm not sure Wright is going to be that great a WR in the NFL. I think a slot type guy, but unless it is a wide open passing attack offense he is in, I don't see a Pro Bowl type guy.

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 08:53 PM
McShay owns him

This guy?

Arizona Cardinals #5 overall

Record: 5-11
* Blaine Gabbert, QB, Missouri

With Miller off the board, Gabbert is a no-brainer here. The Cardinals might have a trying season in 2011 with a rookie quarterback at the helm but the team cannot believe that Max Hall or John Skelton is the long-term answer at the position. Gabbert might not be the first quarterback off the board but I believe his combination of intangibles, mental makeup and accuracy will make him the best quarterback from the 2011 class when all is said and done.

errand
04-24-2012, 08:57 PM
I'm sitting here laughing at some of you jokers who are experts on CB's after watching a youtube highlight vid.:sunshine:

oh, you didn't know? on this site we have more experts than anybody else. they know more than coaches, GM's, and scouts that have spent 2/3rds of their entire lives doing this.

we've even got idiots on here that write open letters to the coaches and general managers....like they know what the hell they're doing. Ironically none of these "experts" are employed by nary an NFL team... it is very comical

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 09:07 PM
1. I can guarantee you Kevin Zeitler will be a Pro Bowler.

Statements like this make you know you're pretty much dealing with a dolt. They think it helps their argument to slap their own guarantee on it.

It's the same as the moron players who guarantee victory after a reporter asks them a question they're too dumb to understand.

Requiem
04-24-2012, 09:34 PM
You thought Vontaze Burfict was the next Ray Lewis. NEXT.

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 09:44 PM
You thought Vontaze Burfict was the next Ray Lewis. NEXT.

If I had the time, or cared, I would find someone you completely whiffed on. NEXT.

SoCalBronco
04-24-2012, 10:31 PM
Sean Spence!

Requiem
04-24-2012, 11:53 PM
If I had the time, or cared, I would find someone you completely whiffed on. NEXT.

I've whiffed, but never that ****ing bad. Lol.

Doggcow
04-25-2012, 12:00 AM
What's fletcher cox ranked? De Castro is gonna make one QB in this league very happy

Dude, if every single player on Stanford is the greatest player of all time, how come they never won any damn games? Lol.

I understand being a fan, but every single one you're talking about as the best player in the draft. Cmon man. The team was pretty good in college, but far from dominant against quality competition.

Drek
04-25-2012, 04:02 AM
Again:

Joe Haden - 4.43
Chris McAlister - is retired, Pro Day results aren't available
Chris Gamble - #28 overall...yes we have a winner!

Thanks Drek you found one :sunshine:
Haden - ran a 4.58. His pro day is worthless. Accept it. They're on different turf (huge variable) in different weather (huge variable) and are the average of hand timings (estimated to subtract 0.10 from 40 yard times versus laser). Guys don't magically get faster in less than a month. The combine uses top end laser timers. Your insistence on touting pro day times is like someone bragging up the $50 GPS they got from Bass Pro versus a $20,000 professional grade sub-CM GIS/GPS unit.

McCalister - Go to NFL draft scout, check their 1999 CBs page. Open up Chris McCalister's page. Simple as that.

Gamble - No ****. Already told you this earlier in the thread.

FYI, Fernando Bryant's 40 time was only 0.01 seconds better than Kirkpatricks too. He was a first round pick and good NFL starter.

And if you give Kirkpatrick the standard improvement (not Joe Haden's improvement) of combine to standard pro day track (0.10) he ran a 4.41. Yay funny math!

Bronco Boy
04-25-2012, 06:59 AM
Haden - ran a 4.58. His pro day is worthless. Accept it. They're on different turf (huge variable) in different weather (huge variable) and are the average of hand timings (estimated to subtract 0.10 from 40 yard times versus laser). Guys don't magically get faster in less than a month. The combine uses top end laser timers. Your insistence on touting pro day times is like someone bragging up the $50 GPS they got from Bass Pro versus a $20,000 professional grade sub-CM GIS/GPS unit.

McCalister - Go to NFL draft scout, check their 1999 CBs page. Open up Chris McCalister's page. Simple as that.

Gamble - No ****. Already told you this earlier in the thread.

FYI, Fernando Bryant's 40 time was only 0.01 seconds better than Kirkpatricks too. He was a first round pick and good NFL starter.

And if you give Kirkpatrick the standard improvement (not Joe Haden's improvement) of combine to standard pro day track (0.10) he ran a 4.41. Yay funny math!

Not really worth arguing with that moron any longer. He'll delete this thread pretty soon anyway.

socalorado
04-25-2012, 07:19 AM
Wow. Started a firestorm with one post! Good. My evil plan is working perfectly.
I dont even care about crappatricks 40 time, never did.
Hes simply overrated. He is terrible in press-man, he is average in zone, and he gets the luxury of playing with a super-star, talent laden team that hides his deficiencies if your not paying attention. Hes projects to a safety in the NFL.
And why in the world would DEN draft a nickel CB, as some are suggesting crappatrick would play at #25, when they already have a very good one in Harris, and crappatrick has huge issues in press man coverage? What? Hes "physical"? Pfft, big deal! He would get eaten alive on the outside, and he would be flagged all game at nickel.
Funny how Barron is projected by everyone including McGruders alien friends form another galaxy, as going in the top 20 picks, but crappatrick isnt considered a better option. Hows that? I thought shut down CBs were absolutely prized by teams, and standard safeties could be had in later rounds.
Thats why Gilmore is so high on Mikes list.
Barron is considered a more worthy secondary player, and Harrison Smith, another safety is ranked one position behind crappatrick.
Then theres crappatricks off the field issues.....
PASS.

Crushisback
04-25-2012, 08:33 AM
These from around our picks.

Michael Brockers
Derek Wolfe
Chris Polk

I really like Zach Brown and would prefer him as our 3rd but he is alittle further down Mayocks list.

Tombstone RJ
04-25-2012, 08:37 AM
Wow. Started a firestorm with one post! Good. My evil plan is working perfectly.
I dont even care about crappatricks 40 time, never did.
Hes simply overrated. He is terrible in press-man, he is average in zone, and he gets the luxury of playing with a super-star, talent laden team that hides his deficiencies if your not paying attention. Hes projects to a safety in the NFL.
And why in the world would DEN draft a nickel CB, as some are suggesting crappatrick would play at #25, when they already have a very good one in Harris, and crappatrick has huge issues in press man coverage? What? Hes "physical"? Pfft, big deal! He would get eaten alive on the outside, and he would be flagged all game at nickel.
Funny how Barron is projected by everyone including McGruders alien friends form another galaxy, as going in the top 20 picks, but crappatrick isnt considered a better option. Hows that? I thought shut down CBs were absolutely prized by teams, and standard safeties could be had in later rounds.
Thats why Gilmore is so high on Mikes list.
Barron is considered a more worthy secondary player, and Harrison Smith, another safety is ranked one position behind crappatrick.
Then theres crappatricks off the field issues.....
PASS.

bwaaahahaha! I love it. I tell everyone on this thread that if Kirk doesn't pan out at CB, move him to safety and now you say he projects as an NFL safety.

wow...

socalorado
04-25-2012, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=Tombstone RJ;3566157]bwaaahahaha! I love it. I tell everyone on this thread that if Kirk doesn't pan out at CB, move him to safety and now you say he projects as an NFL safety.

wow...[/QUOTE

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/X-Men-First-CLass-Professor-Xavier-James-McAvoy-570x379.jpg

pricejj
04-25-2012, 10:15 AM
...

1. I gave you credit because you proved my statement wrong. Good job.

2. Generally guys will run at their Pro Day only if they are disappointed with their Combine time, in an attempt to improve it. Some tracks are known to be faster than others, and there isn't laser timing, but attempting to completely discredit Pro Day workouts is foolish on your part.

3. Here is the list of starting NFL CB's (current and retired), that has been compiled so far, of guys who posted 4.51+ forty times during their offseason before the draft:

1. Chris Gamble - 1st round, current starter
2. Brandon Browner - UDFA, current starter (1x Pro Bowl) (spent 5 seasons in CFL)
3. Brandon Flowers - 2nd round, current starter
4. Brent Grimes - UDFA, current starter
5. Chris McAlister - 1st round, retired (3x Pro Bowl)
6. Dre Bly - 4th rounder, retired (2x Pro Bowl)

4 of 64 current, starting CB's in the NFL, posted 4.51+ forty times during their offseason before the draft. 1 was drafted in the 1st round. 1 made the Pro Bowl (not the same guy). You have been thorough, and I gave you credit.

I already told you, if the Broncos draft Kirkpatrick, I hope he kicks ***.

Drek
04-25-2012, 01:04 PM
2. Generally guys will run at their Pro Day only if they are disappointed with their Combine time, in an attempt to improve it. Some tracks are known to be faster than others, and there isn't laser timing, but attempting to completely discredit Pro Day workouts is foolish on your part.
Pro day workouts are great. Pro day 40 times are worthless. Every human being alive who actually knows anything about physics, math, or any comparative hard science can see the discrepancies there.

3. Here is the list of starting NFL CB's (current and retired), that has been compiled so far, of guys who posted 4.51+ forty times during their offseason before the draft:

1. Chris Gamble - 1st round, current starter
2. Brandon Browner - UDFA, current starter (1x Pro Bowl) (spent 5 seasons in CFL)
3. Brandon Flowers - 2nd round, current starter
4. Brent Grimes - UDFA, current starter
5. Chris McAlister - 1st round, retired (3x Pro Bowl)
6. Dre Bly - 4th rounder, retired (2x Pro Bowl)

4 of 64 current, starting CB's in the NFL, posted 4.51+ forty times during their offseason before the draft. 1 was drafted in the 1st round. 1 made the Pro Bowl (not the same guy). You have been thorough, and I gave you credit.
Great, so teams prefer guys who run sub 4.5 40's as starting QBs. I bet they also prefer RBs who do the same. And WRs. Not a hard fact to suss out.

The interesting factoid we can glean from this debate though comes when we look at the 1st round QBs with 4.50 or greater 40 times at the combine. Notice how there isn't a bust among them? What does that say? To me it says that if you're such an accomplished CB that teams overlook a slightly less than ideal 40 time the chances of you being at least a good starting CB in the NFL are pretty damn high.

Requiem
04-25-2012, 01:05 PM
That list isn't extensive at all. I added about three or four players to it last night. Another first rounder, Antoine Cason, nukkas.

pricejj
04-25-2012, 01:11 PM
Ball skills are also a major factor in CB play, and a primary reason why the 4.5+ CB's have become starters (and sometimes fluorished) in the NFL. Examine the college INT production of the 6 players on our list.

1. Chris Gamble - 7 INT's
2. Brandon Browner - 6 INT's (in 2 years) (1x Pro Bowl)
3. Brandon Flowers - 10 INT's
4. Brent Grimes - 27 INT's
5. Chris McAlister - 15 INT's (3x Pro Bowl)
6. Dre Bly - 20 INT's (2x Pro Bowl)

Dre Kirkpatrick - 3 INT's

pricejj
04-25-2012, 01:15 PM
That list isn't extensive at all. I added about three or four players to it last night. Another first rounder, Antoine Cason, nukkas.

Cason - 4.45 (average)

Thanks for not putting me on iggy Req. I consider you my friend. I just want to see the Broncos kick butt. :approve:

*edit

Requiem
04-25-2012, 01:25 PM
Cason - 4.45

Thanks for not putting me on iggy Req. I consider you my friend. I just want to see the Broncos kick butt. :approve:

He also ran a 4.59.

socalorado
04-25-2012, 01:53 PM
Ball skills are also a major factor in CB play, and a primary reason why the 4.5+ CB's have become starters (and sometimes fluorished) in the NFL. Examine the college INT production of the 6 players on our list.

1. Chris Gamble - 7 INT's
2. Brandon Browner - 6 INT's (in 2 years) (1x Pro Bowl)
3. Brandon Flowers - 10 INT's
4. Brent Grimes - 27 INT's
5. Chris McAlister - 15 INT's (3x Pro Bowl)
6. Dre Bly - 20 INT's (2x Pro Bowl)

Dre Kirkpatrick - 3 INT's

ZERO INT's this year. And, no it wasnt cause they didnt throw to his side.