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View Full Version : NO Defensive Tackle in Round 1 !


wolf754life
04-23-2012, 09:03 PM
**** just got real!

http://broncotalk.net/2012/04/34536/nfl-draft/john-elway-were-not-desperate-to-draft-a-dt/


We dont feel as bad about our tackles as everybody else does, said Elway. I think that we feel OK there and [DT] Ty Warren will be back coming off an injury and [DT Kevin] Vickerson is coming back and then we have some young guys in there where we feel like well be OK. Its not nearly the need in our minds that people think it is.

BowlenBall
04-23-2012, 09:05 PM
http://mediamilitia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/smoke-600-2.jpg
http://www.twpinc.com/images/products/detail/012X012SP0230W48T.jpg

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 09:13 PM
That could very well be a smoke screen. But bear in mind, we still have the two players slated to start last year in camp before their injuries.

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 09:14 PM
I just looked up Kevin Vickerson's profile on nfl.com...

He attended Martin Luther Kind High School... in Detroit.

Rohirrim
04-23-2012, 09:14 PM
Better to listen to nothing you hear this week.

Archer81
04-23-2012, 09:17 PM
Hmm...

So...its either Mr Smith (harrison) or Mr Fleener making a flight to Denver thursday night.

:Broncos:

Lestat
04-23-2012, 09:21 PM
i see pitchforks and torches in Elway's future, first ignoring DT last season, then trading Tebow and now potentially ignoring DT again this season.

i'm a big believer in draft value but you can't honestly believe that there aren't some DT's that are worth it in round 1 or 2. gonna be tough to convince the fans that DT isn't a need when the main issue is that you won't draft them and haven't in the past 10-15 years worth anything.

wolf754life
04-23-2012, 09:22 PM
Also hearing Jenoris Jenkins is off their board

schaaf
04-23-2012, 09:25 PM
Also hearing Jenoris Jenkins is off their board

From where?

Rohirrim
04-23-2012, 09:28 PM
Also hearing Jenoris Jenkins is off their board

That's a relief.

Bacchus
04-23-2012, 09:29 PM
I feel a RB you can get at #25 will make a bigger impact than a #25 DT.

The best teams in the NFL had great offenses and suspect defenses. The fact is you have to outrscore teams. If Denver could get draft the second best RB in the draft at #25 how can they turn that down? New England, GB, New Orleans all had great offenses and poor defenses. Hell, the Giants most of the time did not even play 2 DTs in the game opting to play 3 or 4 DEs instead.

I will not complain if the Broncos draft a DT #1 but I won't complain if they get a RB either and I would be happier with a RB.

Bigdawg26
04-23-2012, 09:32 PM
I really wouldn't be surprised! I'm really trying not to get my hopes up just to get let down every year!

Taco John
04-23-2012, 09:34 PM
I'm no draft expert, but the little I've gotten to look this year, I don't think that there is much value at DT at the bottom of round 1. Seems like we can get similar caliber at the end of round 1 as we can at the end of round 2.

strafen
04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
If we draft an impact player, that's all I care about, just so long it's not a freakin' running back. :crazy:

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:38 PM
Better to listen to nothing you hear this week.

LOL this.

Thanks for reminding me. I'm blocking ESPN and NFL Network too until Thursday. It's just too much.

cmhargrove
04-23-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm starting to hope that one certain player slips to us because he would be a tremendous asset to the defense. I know many mocks have him going higher, but my new top pick that I hope falls?

Mark Barron, SS.

If Dallas passes on him, we have a shot, and I certainly think he fills a need, as well as getting lucky with BPA. We got torched by poor safety play vs the Pats, more than anything they did to us in the middle of the line (d-tackle). We need top notch talent in the defensive backfield, and Barron fits the bill. We can still pick up a DT like Thompson in the second round. I'm crossing my fingers that the Cowboys pass, and Barron slides to 25.

wolf754life
04-23-2012, 09:38 PM
Guys, just got off the phone, they are in love with Kirkpatrick, will try to trade up to get him if he is on the board in the early 20's, worried about detroit at 23.

They really love this guy.......think he starts right away, replaces bailey in the future. Then I'm told its RB/DT/LB based on value.

my source has worked at the valley of the doves for a long time. He HAS been wrong, in 2007 he swore it was Ted Ginn Jr... so take it for what its worth

extralife
04-23-2012, 09:41 PM
my source has worked at the valley of the doves for a long time.

janitor

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 09:41 PM
Guys, just got off the phone, they are in love with Kirkpatrick, will try to trade up to get him if he is on the board in the early 20's, worried about detroit at 23.

They really love this guy.......think he starts right away, replaces bailey in the future. Then I'm told its RB/DT/LB based on value.

my source has worked at the valley of the doves for a long time. He HAS been wrong, in 2007 he swore it was Ted Ginn Jr... so take it for what its worth

It probably would have been if he wasn't taken, what, ninth? What a ****ty draft that was.

Baba Booey
04-23-2012, 09:45 PM
Elway, in his conference today, did say that they value character, but they also understand kids make mistakes.

I'd love Kirkpatrick.

wolf754life
04-23-2012, 09:45 PM
Too slow for my tastes, battle tested though, injury prone big time, but picking at 25 they are all gonna have warts!

Rohirrim
04-23-2012, 09:49 PM
I'm starting to hope that one certain player slips to us because he would be a tremendous asset to the defense. I know many mocks have him going higher, but my new top pick that I hope falls?

Mark Barron, SS.

If Dallas passes on him, we have a shot, and I certainly think he fills a need, as well as getting lucky with BPA. We got torched by poor safety play vs the Pats, more than anything they did to us in the middle of the line (d-tackle). We need top notch talent in the defensive backfield, and Barron fits the bill. We can still pick up a DT like Thompson in the second round. I'm crossing my fingers that the Cowboys pass, and Barron slides to 25.

Even if he gets past the Cowboys, I can't see him getting past the Lions.

ghwk
04-23-2012, 09:54 PM
janitor

Hey the janitor gets to see what is written on the whiteboard, could be worse!

Requiem
04-23-2012, 09:54 PM
If they draft Billy Special Ed Winn in the second round I am gone forever.

Broncoman13
04-23-2012, 09:58 PM
Guys, just got off the phone, they are in love with Kirkpatrick, will try to trade up to get him if he is on the board in the early 20's, worried about detroit at 23.

They really love this guy.......think he starts right away, replaces bailey in the future. Then I'm told its RB/DT/LB based on value.

my source has worked at the valley of the doves for a long time. He HAS been wrong, in 2007 he swore it was Ted Ginn Jr... so take it for what its worth

I know they want a CB, just don't know which one. Klis seems to think the top players on their board who they feel may be there at 25 are Brockers and Kirkpatrick.

NFLBRONCO
04-23-2012, 10:05 PM
I think only DT's we like in RD 1 is Cox and Brockers. I heard Klis say they like Worthy but, not at 25.

OBF1
04-23-2012, 10:06 PM
[QUOTE=wolf754lifemy source has worked at the valley of the doves for a long time. [/QUOTE]

What is the name of that guy that orders the pizza's???

MrPeepers
04-23-2012, 10:11 PM
I'm starting to hope that one certain player slips to us because he would be a tremendous asset to the defense. I know many mocks have him going higher, but my new top pick that I hope falls?

Mark Barron, SS.

If Dallas passes on him, we have a shot, and I certainly think he fills a need, as well as getting lucky with BPA. We got torched by poor safety play vs the Pats, more than anything they did to us in the middle of the line (d-tackle). We need top notch talent in the defensive backfield, and Barron fits the bill. We can still pick up a DT like Thompson in the second round. I'm crossing my fingers that the Cowboys pass, and Barron slides to 25.

if he fell tennessee takes him

Heyneck
04-23-2012, 10:11 PM
What is the name of that guy that orders the pizza's???

Brian Xanders?

Chris
04-23-2012, 10:15 PM
Too slow for my tastes, battle tested though, injury prone big time, but picking at 25 they are all gonna have warts!

Two questions

What would we have to give up to leapfrog the bengals at 22?

Can Kirkpatrick wrap up? Just watched (admittedly a highlight) vid and all his tackles are BAM big hits.

Gonna be interesting to see where Gilmore goes because that could determine a lot.

Bigdawg26
04-23-2012, 10:17 PM
Brian Xanders?

Damn you beat me to it! I guess draft day he's ordering Chinese!

Aftermath
04-23-2012, 10:31 PM
Even if he gets past the Cowboys, I can't see him getting past the Lions.

They have Delmas, not sure if they play same position atm.

ZONA
04-23-2012, 11:00 PM
I feel a RB you can get at #25 will make a bigger impact than a #25 DT.

The best teams in the NFL had great offenses and suspect defenses. The fact is you have to outrscore teams.


Yet one could argue, for the 2nd time in 4 years maybe the most well balanced team has won the superbowl.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 11:05 PM
Two questions

What would we have to give up to leapfrog the bengals at 22?

Can Kirkpatrick wrap up? Just watched (admittedly a highlight) vid and all his tackles are BAM big hits.

Gonna be interesting to see where Gilmore goes because that could determine a lot.

Yes, that's it. If Kirkpatrick is gone, they will choose a DT...probably Still (which I hate)....they won't venture far from existing mocks.

Agamemnon
04-24-2012, 05:01 AM
They aren't going to draft a DT in the 1st. This Elway quote is just more evidence. Yet people will keep believing otherwise, because people believe what they want to believe.

Mediator12
04-24-2012, 06:20 AM
I just did the research on DT's drafted in the last 7 years near the end of the first round. It is not pretty at all! Of the 13 drafted players at the end, or early second round taken only 3 of the players were able to come in a make a difference for a team. The scary part is it was a short term start and long term effect for all three. None of the other 10 DT's who were drafted "developed" into starters or playmakers for their teams eventually. This includes the last 2 years, where their development is not played out yet. One of those players, Jared Odrick looks like he could break out, but as a 3-4 DE for MIA, not a 4-3 UT that he was projected to be.

Of those DT's who did make an impact, 2 of the 3 were moved to 3-4 DE and NOT playing 4-3 UT or NT!! So, only one player in the last 7 drafts selected at the end of the first or early second became the DT playmaker the team thought they had drafted. That is a scary analysis for sure.

This leads me to believe, that DT is an extremely risky pick where DEN selects in this draft. The only thing that makes me feel much better, is that this particular draft has the most first round grades at DT in a decade. Some of those players who were drafted late in the first, had serious issues like being a talented underachiever (Still, Worthy) and that scares me with those guys more than guys like Reyes who showed solid career progression as he was a LB and DE before growing into productive DT. He is still raw, but he continued to grow as a player as opposed to being a hot and cold performer.

Personally, No one on this site has cried for a Real defensive Line than me since 2004. However, with this analysis, I would rather find a playmaker at 25 and get a role player like Barry Cofield later in the draft. My problem is that DEN has NEVER drafted a DT worth a damn since Trevor Pryce 14 years ago. I do not like the track record of the organization to find that diamond in the rough.

cmhargrove
04-24-2012, 06:23 AM
if he fell tennessee takes him

But, let's say the Cowboys pass, and the Titans take a CB to replace Finnegan. It's a possibility that I would like to see happen.

Drek
04-24-2012, 06:34 AM
Personally, No one on this site has cried for a Real defensive Line than me since 2004. However, with this analysis, I would rather find a playmaker at 25 and get a role player like Barry Cofield later in the draft. My problem is that DEN has NEVER drafted a DT worth a damn since Trevor Pryce 14 years ago. I do not like the track record of the organization to find that diamond in the rough.

Sure, but the coaching staff and decision makers have changed a lot since then. Del Rio had a pretty strong track record with DTs in Jacksonville, though how much control he had in the selection and coaching of those players is debatable.

Alualu was a savvy pick that most (including myself) ridiculed at the time. Knighton was an excellent mid-round grab who contributed immediately.

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 06:43 AM
I would much rather hold out for Wolfe, Thompson, or Ta'Amu in the 2nd and look for whichever impact player may slip to #25 at CB, OL, RB, S.

Lycan
04-24-2012, 06:43 AM
**** just got real!

http://broncotalk.net/2012/04/34536/nfl-draft/john-elway-were-not-desperate-to-draft-a-dt/


We dont feel as bad about our tackles as everybody else does, said Elway. I think that we feel OK there and [DT] Ty Warren will be back coming off an injury and [DT Kevin] Vickerson is coming back and then we have some young guys in there where we feel like well be OK. Its not nearly the need in our minds that people think it is.


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly4hahMVYd1qltsmj.gif

Kaylore
04-24-2012, 06:49 AM
I would argue that **** couldn't get less real than it will be this week until the first name is called.

Mediator12
04-24-2012, 06:50 AM
Sure, but the coaching staff and decision makers have changed a lot since then. Del Rio had a pretty strong track record with DTs in Jacksonville, though how much control he had in the selection and coaching of those players is debatable.

Alualu was a savvy pick that most (including myself) ridiculed at the time. Knighton was an excellent mid-round grab who contributed immediately.

I agree. However, I do not have faith that they will utilize JDR or Fox's opinions on draftable players yet. I would feel a lot better if they were actively involved in asessing players publically. We just do not know. I have seen organizations all over the place in how they let coaches help in the eval process. I KNOW INDY did not give coaches any say hardly at all under Polian. And, they drafted some Turd DL the last five years.

eddie mac
04-24-2012, 06:57 AM
Come on now give the Front Office a bit of credit. The only draft they haven't ****ed up in the last 10 years was the one where they picked 2nd.

Gcver2ver3
04-24-2012, 07:00 AM
There isnt even a consensus on the top 5 DTs... its such a risky move picking DT in the 1st round...

Take impact players in the 1st two rounds and draft heavy DT the rest of the draft and hopefully a couple stick...

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 07:09 AM
There isnt even a consensus on the top 5 DTs... its such a risky move picking DT in the 1st round...

Take impact players in the 1st two rounds and draft heavy DT the rest of the draft and hopefully a couple stick...

I agree with this for the most part. At this point the only way I would go DT would be if Cox somehow slipped and was available at #25.

Drek
04-24-2012, 07:13 AM
I agree. However, I do not have faith that they will utilize JDR or Fox's opinions on draftable players yet. I would feel a lot better if they were actively involved in asessing players publically. We just do not know. I have seen organizations all over the place in how they let coaches help in the eval process. I KNOW INDY did not give coaches any say hardly at all under Polian. And, they drafted some Turd DL the last five years.

True, but I do seem to recall more than a few stories over the years out of Denver where coaches were directly involved in the scouting of draftees. That coupled with Elway's management style, which I view as a consensus builder's approach who isn't afraid to pull the trigger at the end himself, could allow for Fox and Del Rio to have tangible input.

Look at last year's class for example. Orlando Franklin is the kind of guy Fox and Magazu kept looking for at RT in Carolina (including trading up for Otah). Big run crusher who can grow into a solid or better pass protector.

They also let Del Rio handle FA meetings on his own while they were in the Manning hunt. Maybe not the best way to sell the team to FAs but it hints at a level of trust and greater than normal importance he's being given.

Maybe none of that is legitimate but that is just the feeling I get.

Ronnie Tsunami
04-24-2012, 07:15 AM
I just looked up Kevin Vickerson's profile on nfl.com...

He attended Martin Luther King High School... in Detroit.

Chris Rock would be proud

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 07:17 AM
They aren't going to draft a DT in the 1st. This Elway quote is just more evidence. Yet people will keep believing otherwise, because people believe what they want to believe.

At some point the bull**** has to end. This is perhaps the best DT draft in God knows how long, and the value really starts in the Late 1st - Mid 2nd for potential impact D-linemen. Our current roster of DTs is crap. I mean if it is EVER going to happen, it's this year. The stars are aligned.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 07:20 AM
...

I did similar research a few weeks ago, and came to the conclusion that about 75% of DT's drafted in the late 1st were busts.


Sure, but the coaching staff and decision makers have changed a lot since then. Del Rio had a pretty strong track record with DTs in Jacksonville, though how much control he had in the selection and coaching of those players is debatable.

Alualu was a savvy pick that most (including myself) ridiculed at the time. Knighton was an excellent mid-round grab who contributed immediately.

JDR has a low success rate in drafting Defensive Lineman. You know about Alualu (6 sacks total, in 2 years from a #10 overall draft pick) (which isn't great), and Knighton. JDR has busted on about 4? DL in the top 2 rounds in the last few years (including Derrick Harvey). JDR is NOT responsible for drafting Marcus Stroud or John Henderson...those picks came from none other than...Tom Coughlin.

John Fox basically had to coach, who Marty Hurney, the GM in Carolina picked on the Defensive Line. None of them were high draft picks. The lone exception is Julius Peppers, drafted in Fox's 1st year in Carolina, with the #2 overall pick (pretty hard to screw that one up).

pricejj
04-24-2012, 07:23 AM
True, but I do seem to recall more than a few stories over the years out of Denver where coaches were directly involved in the scouting of draftees. That coupled with Elway's management style, which I view as a consensus builder's approach who isn't afraid to pull the trigger at the end himself, could allow for Fox and Del Rio to have tangible input.

Look at last year's class for example. Orlando Franklin is the kind of guy Fox and Magazu kept looking for at RT in Carolina (including trading up for Otah). Big run crusher who can grow into a solid or better pass protector.

They also let Del Rio handle FA meetings on his own while they were in the Manning hunt. Maybe not the best way to sell the team to FAs but it hints at a level of trust and greater than normal importance he's being given.

Maybe none of that is legitimate but that is just the feeling I get.

Elway specifically said, during the presser, that EVERYONE is involved in the process. Xanders, Matt Russell, John Fox, JDR, and positional coaches...he even said that they would talk to coordinators and positional coaches during the draft...

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 07:24 AM
I just did the research on DT's drafted in the last 7 years near the end of the first round. It is not pretty at all! Of the 13 drafted players at the end, or early second round taken only 3 of the players were able to come in a make a difference for a team. The scary part is it was a short term start and long term effect for all three. None of the other 10 DT's who were drafted "developed" into starters or playmakers for their teams eventually. This includes the last 2 years, where their development is not played out yet. One of those players, Jared Odrick looks like he could break out, but as a 3-4 DE for MIA, not a 4-3 UT that he was projected to be.

Of those DT's who did make an impact, 2 of the 3 were moved to 3-4 DE and NOT playing 4-3 UT or NT!! So, only one player in the last 7 drafts selected at the end of the first or early second became the DT playmaker the team thought they had drafted. That is a scary analysis for sure.

This leads me to believe, that DT is an extremely risky pick where DEN selects in this draft. The only thing that makes me feel much better, is that this particular draft has the most first round grades at DT in a decade. Some of those players who were drafted late in the first, had serious issues like being a talented underachiever (Still, Worthy) and that scares me with those guys more than guys like Reyes who showed solid career progression as he was a LB and DE before growing into productive DT. He is still raw, but he continued to grow as a player as opposed to being a hot and cold performer.

Personally, No one on this site has cried for a Real defensive Line than me since 2004. However, with this analysis, I would rather find a playmaker at 25 and get a role player like Barry Cofield later in the draft. My problem is that DEN has NEVER drafted a DT worth a damn since Trevor Pryce 14 years ago. I do not like the track record of the organization to find that diamond in the rough.


This is true, but you still have to shoot to possibly score, right? You nailed it that this is a very deep DT class. It's roughly ten deep with guys I think would drastically upgrade our DT position from Day 1, even if in a heavy rotation. The way I currently see it, only Cox will likely be gone when we select in Round 1, but Worthy, Brockers, Still, Reyes, and likely both Wolfe and Thompson will be gone by our pick in Round 2. I'm not overly excited by Mike Martin and Alameda Ta'amu at that point. And we won't take Martin for the same reasons we didn't like Paea last draft.

I think my concern is that we pass on a DT in Round 1, which places us in a position of having to trade up in Round 2. Well, there goes our 3rd and possibly 4th round picks in addition to the 2nd round swap.

I would much rather just take the DT we like the most at 25 and keep our mid round selections. Trading back in fine too.

I just don't want to go "playmaker" in Round 1, and then kill the rest of the draft trying to trade up in Round 2.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 07:26 AM
I agree with this for the most part. At this point the only way I would go DT would be if Cox somehow slipped and was available at #25.

I totally disagree. If it was me, I would pick BPA in the 1st (which is probably OL if Hightower is off the board). The Broncos will not do that. They are drafting BPA in a position of need. Elway specifically stated that you can never get enough pass rush (UT), and you can never have enough CB's. If Kirkpatrick is off the board, they will pick DT.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 07:29 AM
Two questions

What would we have to give up to leapfrog the bengals at 22?

Can Kirkpatrick wrap up? Just watched (admittedly a highlight) vid and all his tackles are BAM big hits.

Gonna be interesting to see where Gilmore goes because that could determine a lot.

In front of 22, would take our 3rd with a kickback. I think the Bengals take a CB at 17 though, so to move up to 16 would take our 2nd. I think it's safe to assume at this point that Claiborne and Gilmore will be gone in the Top 10, leaving Kirkpatrick as the last elite CB prospect, which drives up his demand. I think we have to jump 17, which would cost us our 2nd at a minimum.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 07:32 AM
Sure, but the coaching staff and decision makers have changed a lot since then. Del Rio had a pretty strong track record with DTs in Jacksonville, though how much control he had in the selection and coaching of those players is debatable.

Alualu was a savvy pick that most (including myself) ridiculed at the time. Knighton was an excellent mid-round grab who contributed immediately.

Here in Jacksonville, we're still ridiculing the selection. Alualu has not worked out whatsoever. It's to the point the organization is trying to say he's had bad knees since his rookie year, and after offseason surgery, this is the year he finally shows up. I think most Jags fans are excited at the thought of drafting Cox to potentially replace Alualu in a year or so. Not savvy pick at all. Knighton was a solid 3rd rounder.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 07:36 AM
Come on now give the Front Office a bit of credit. The only draft they haven't ****ed up in the last 10 years was the one where they picked 2nd.

I need more clarification (sarcasm sometimes hard to see).

As of this moment in time, last year's draft looks pretty bad. We did well with the #2 Overall, but we potentially whiffed on Moore, Irving, Thomas, Mohamed, and Beal. Franklin is out of position and is going to get Manning retired this year, and Carter was a solid 4th rounder.

It's far too early to judge, but as of now, it's not looking overly pretty. Especially with the stated goal being 4 immediate starters from the first three rounds, with two of them essentially being perma-benched.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 07:38 AM
In front of 22, would take our 3rd with a kickback. I think the Bengals take a CB at 17 though, so to move up to 16 would take our 2nd. I think it's safe to assume at this point that Claiborne and Gilmore will be gone in the Top 10, leaving Kirkpatrick as the last elite CB prospect, which drives up his demand. I think we have to jump 17, which would cost us our 2nd at a minimum.

Trading up to draft Kirkpatrick would be moronic. He is not an elite CB in the NFL. I do believe that the Broncos would pick him (instead of a DT) at #25, if he were available.

Gcver2ver3
04-24-2012, 07:43 AM
Trading up to draft Kirkpatrick would be moronic. He is not an elite CB in the NFL. I do believe that the Broncos would pick him (instead of a DT) at #25, if he were available.

It depends on how far kirkpatrick falls... if by pick #23 he hasnt been taken, then moving up two spots isnt near the price of moving up to say #15...

He doesnt have to be an elite corner to justify that move imo... just a very solid starting cover corner for the foreseeable future...

Bacchus
04-24-2012, 07:44 AM
I'm starting to hope that one certain player slips to us because he would be a tremendous asset to the defense. I know many mocks have him going higher, but my new top pick that I hope falls?

Mark Barron, SS.

If Dallas passes on him, we have a shot, and I certainly think he fills a need, as well as getting lucky with BPA. We got torched by poor safety play vs the Pats, more than anything they did to us in the middle of the line (d-tackle). We need top notch talent in the defensive backfield, and Barron fits the bill. We can still pick up a DT like Thompson in the second round. I'm crossing my fingers that the Cowboys pass, and Barron slides to 25.

HE is by far the best S in the class no way he falls to #25. No way he slips past Dallas.

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 07:55 AM
I totally disagree. If it was me, I would pick BPA in the 1st (which is probably OL if Hightower is off the board). The Broncos will not do that. They are drafting BPA in a position of need. Elway specifically stated that you can never get enough pass rush (UT), and you can never have enough CB's. If Kirkpatrick is off the board, they will pick DT.

Well, you'll likely change your mind completely by tomorrow and have deleted this post, so...

Remember when you were begging for Crick at #25?

Mediator12
04-24-2012, 07:58 AM
This is true, but you still have to shoot to possibly score, right? You nailed it that this is a very deep DT class. It's roughly ten deep with guys I think would drastically upgrade our DT position from Day 1, even if in a heavy rotation. The way I currently see it, only Cox will likely be gone when we select in Round 1, but Worthy, Brockers, Still, Reyes, and likely both Wolfe and Thompson will be gone by our pick in Round 2. I'm not overly excited by Mike Martin and Alameda Ta'amu at that point. And we won't take Martin for the same reasons we didn't like Paea last draft.

I think my concern is that we pass on a DT in Round 1, which places us in a position of having to trade up in Round 2. Well, there goes our 3rd and possibly 4th round picks in addition to the 2nd round swap.

I would much rather just take the DT we like the most at 25 and keep our mid round selections. Trading back in fine too.

I just don't want to go "playmaker" in Round 1, and then kill the rest of the draft trying to trade up in Round 2.

I don't believe this organization is draft savy enough to manipulate the board just yet. So, all the trade situations you laid out are not really discussable to me at this point.

I really like Mike Martin though. He is a value 4-3 DT who is much better as a penetrator in a one gap at either NT or UT than a pure 3-4 NT. He played that because it was asked of him, but he really came alive at the Senior Bowl in one on one drills and game action when he just lined up and attacked a gap. He was dynamic instead of static. That is where he could excel at the next level IMHO. Michigan, like many other programs misused him as a player on the DL. He is definitely a projection, but it's not a hard one to me.

Ta'Amu is a two gap guy and not a one gap NT. Not a scheme fit to me. Would be a talent wasted pick as well. Like Evander Hood was to PIT in 2009. He was a one gap UT who Pit drafted to replace their aging 3-4 DE corp. Awful pick to fill a need IMHO. Took him out of his strengths and made him a role player, and not a playmaker on the DL.

Also, I doubt Cox is the ONLY DT off the board by 25. Too many teams still need DT or 3-4 DE to have only one player off the board by then. No other position is as deep, but there are barely any other top 15 grades on other positions of need. I would be stunned if 3 DT's are not off the board by 25, just because of team need.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 08:02 AM
It depends on how far kirkpatrick falls... if by pick #23 he hasnt been taken, then moving up two spots isnt near the price of moving up to say #15...

He doesnt have to be an elite corner to justify that move imo... just a very solid starting cover corner for the foreseeable future...

It would cost a 4th rounder...which I would much rather use to move up in the 2nd.

Think about it, would you rather have:

1. #23 and #57
2. #25 and #47
3. #25, #57, and #108

I would rather have #25 and #47.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 08:06 AM
Well, you'll likely change your mind completely by tomorrow and have deleted this post, so...

Remember when you were begging for Crick at #25?

I remember making a thread about how I thought he was a good player, and we should take a look at him at #25. Obviously now, after all the offseason workouts, I would pick a DT by moving up to #47 in the 2nd round. Either Wolfe or Thompson. They are more sure-fire bets than Crick (who I cooled on after I saw him giving up on plays in the Wisconsin game).

Gcver2ver3
04-24-2012, 08:07 AM
It would cost a 4th rounder...which I would much rather use to move up in the 2nd.

Think about it, would you rather have:

1. #23 and #57
2. #25 and #47
3. #25, #57, and #108

I would rather have #25 and #47.

I cant really answer that without attaching names to those picks...

There are only 3 first rd graded corners in this draft (excluding jenkins)... if denver is able to nab one sitting where we sit in the draft and it only cost us one of our two 4th rd picks then i'm all for it...

Its all a matter of preference at this point... neither of us are wrong...

Drek
04-24-2012, 08:13 AM
Here in Jacksonville, we're still ridiculing the selection. Alualu has not worked out whatsoever. It's to the point the organization is trying to say he's had bad knees since his rookie year, and after offseason surgery, this is the year he finally shows up. I think most Jags fans are excited at the thought of drafting Cox to potentially replace Alualu in a year or so. Not savvy pick at all. Knighton was a solid 3rd rounder.

Alualu has started every game he's been around for, that's better than a lot of other first round DTs can claim. Didn't realize that the local perception was so negative though. He hasn't been a world beater but then he wasn't drafted to be one. He was selected because he could step in and be a solid player from day one. The perception that he needs to live up to being the 10th overall pick is the problem, not Alualu.

wolf754life
04-24-2012, 08:15 AM
If Kirkpatrick is gone, look for Doug Martin RB to be the pick

Gcver2ver3
04-24-2012, 08:16 AM
If Kirkpatrick is gone, look for Doug Martin RB to be the pick

I could certainly live with that...

pricejj
04-24-2012, 08:19 AM
I cant really answer that without attaching names to those picks...

There are only 3 first rd graded corners in this draft (excluding jenkins)... if denver is able to nab one sitting where we sit in the draft and it only cost us one of our two 4th rd picks then i'm all for it...

Its all a matter of preference at this point... neither of us are wrong...

#47 choices: Josh Robinson (CB), Brandon Thompson (DT), Derek Wolfe (DT), Lamar Miller (RB), David Wilson (RB), etc.

You can target almost any 2nd rounder you want (outside of the top 40) with a 4th rounder (plus a 6th or 7th).

I think you get better value by moving up 10 to 15 spots in the 2nd...than moving up 2 spots in the 1st.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 08:21 AM
Alualu has started every game he's been around for, that's better than a lot of other first round DTs can claim. Didn't realize that the local perception was so negative though. He hasn't been a world beater but then he wasn't drafted to be one. He was selected because he could step in and be a solid player from day one. The perception that he needs to live up to being the 10th overall pick is the problem, not Alualu.

Valid point. But he hasn't even lived up to the billing of a 3rd round pick as of yet. This is his make or break year. The knees are fixed, no more excuses. Time to impact some games, not just assist on tackles now and then.

underrated29
04-24-2012, 08:25 AM
If Kirkpatrick is gone, look for Doug Martin RB to be the pick

interesting. I thought it was lamar miller who they coveted. Just going from what ihve heard and what Req has stated.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-24-2012, 08:28 AM
I don't believe this organization is draft savy enough to manipulate the board just yet. So, all the trade situations you laid out are not really discussable to me at this point.

I really like Mike Martin though. He is a value 4-3 DT who is much better as a penetrator in a one gap at either NT or UT than a pure 3-4 NT. He played that because it was asked of him, but he really came alive at the Senior Bowl in one on one drills and game action when he just lined up and attacked a gap. He was dynamic instead of static. That is where he could excel at the next level IMHO. Michigan, like many other programs misused him as a player on the DL. He is definitely a projection, but it's not a hard one to me.

Ta'Amu is a two gap guy and not a one gap NT. Not a scheme fit to me. Would be a talent wasted pick as well. Like Evander Hood was to PIT in 2009. He was a one gap UT who Pit drafted to replace their aging 3-4 DE corp. Awful pick to fill a need IMHO. Took him out of his strengths and made him a role player, and not a playmaker on the DL.

Also, I doubt Cox is the ONLY DT off the board by 25. Too many teams still need DT or 3-4 DE to have only one player off the board by then. No other position is as deep, but there are barely any other top 15 grades on other positions of need. I would be stunned if 3 DT's are not off the board by 25, just because of team need.


I agree on Martin, he looks ho-hum if left as a Nose, but is exciting if allowed to gap shoot. The reason I don't think he is an option (and he should be) is that he has the same height/arm limitations as Paea, and EFX stated after last draft they want a certain height and arm length at DT.

As for DTs in the Top 25, I guess it's conceivable Brockers and Worthy could go that high, though I would find it surprising. I think Coples actually has a good chance to go as a 34 end in that range as well.

Do you have a preference for a realistic 1st and 2nd round selection duo?

errand
04-24-2012, 08:35 AM
in all honesty, none of us know a damn thing about who the broncos are going to pick in the first round..... and I guarantee over half of you won't like who they pick.... so why beat your brains out until the pick is actually made?

I recall last year when alot on here complained about the miller pick.... even though we needed to generate pressure on the opposing quarterback. several on here did not like franklin, despite constantly bitching about wanting to upgrade the O-line.

pull up a chair, grab a beer, eat some chow, and watch the draft...... because john elway cannot hear you nor does he read this message board.

Let the professionals handle it.....

Mediator12
04-24-2012, 08:56 AM
in all honesty, none of us know a damn thing about who the broncos are going to pick in the first round..... and I guarantee over half of you won't like who they pick.... so why beat your brains out until the pick is actually made?

I recall last year when alot on here complained about the miller pick.... even though we needed to generate pressure on the opposing quarterback. several on here did not like franklin, despite constantly b****ing about wanting to upgrade the O-line.

pull up a chair, grab a beer, eat some chow, and watch the draft...... because john elway cannot hear you nor does he read this message board.

Let the professionals handle it.....

Hey, I take exception to that. I am a professional (In my own Mind) and I stayed at a Holiday in Express last night ;D

The point is not getting it right, but having fun thinking about it. I like to evaluate decisions for a living (Consultant and Coach) and the draft is my favorite hobby outside of shooting. I like being able to discuss it with like minded draftniks and waying the merits. I also rarely do drama unless I am pissed off at something else :welcome:

That's what a Mesage board should and could be. I do agree we do get a lot of venting here though ;D

Rohirrim
04-24-2012, 09:00 AM
Coming here and engaging in these discussions, and arguments, makes the draft exponentially more enjoyable for me. I learn more about the players, the teams, the coaches, and the FOs and it gives me a much more in depth experience of the whole thing. Frankly, the draft is right up there at the top, as far as football enjoyment goes.

Dedhed
04-24-2012, 09:05 AM
Coming here and engaging in these discussions, and arguments, makes the draft exponentially more enjoyable for me. I learn more about the players, the teams, the coaches, and the FOs and it gives me a much more in depth experience of the whole thing. Frankly, the draft is right up there at the top, as far as football enjoyment goes.
I agree completely. Prior to the 2011 season, the draft has been more enjoyable and interesting than the actual season for 3-4 years.

Gcver2ver3
04-24-2012, 09:08 AM
Coming here and engaging in these discussions, and arguments, makes the draft exponentially more enjoyable for me. I learn more about the players, the teams, the coaches, and the FOs and it gives me a much more in depth experience of the whole thing. Frankly, the draft is right up there at the top, as far as football enjoyment goes.

Exactly...

errand
04-24-2012, 10:08 AM
Hey, I take exception to that. I am a professional (In my own Mind) and I stayed at a Holiday in Express last night ;D

The point is not getting it right, but having fun thinking about it. I like to evaluate decisions for a living (Consultant and Coach) and the draft is my favorite hobby outside of shooting. I like being able to discuss it with like minded draftniks and waying the merits. I also rarely do drama unless I am pissed off at something else :welcome:

That's what a Mesage board should and could be. I do agree we do get a lot of venting here though ;D

There are some on here who are more passionate about doing the research, etc. I agree....but, it's comical sometimes with all the posters saying this guy isn't worth this or that selection slot.

People bitch about where a player was selected, and perhaps that player shouldn't be selected where he was....of course most make that statement after they've seen the guy play in NFL....and it does make for interesting heated debates over whether or not someone's NFL production warranted their draft status.

Clearly Ryan Leaf wasn't worth the #2 overall selection....neither was Rick Mirer...but that also goes the other way. Nowadays there are tons of sites and magazines doing "Re-Drafts" where they examine past draft days thru the lens of hindsight.

what if Mike had drafted Terrell Davis or Bill Belichick drafted Brady in the first round? People's heads would've exploded on draft day....however without the benefit hindsight, and seeing their greatness unfold before our eyes, can we honestly say that they should have went higher on the day they were drafted?

I trust the guys that have been involved with the NFL practically their entire lives to make the right decisions. However, keep in mind the draft is a crap shoot...always will be...and all the powers that be doing the selecting have to go on is personal interviews, the combine workouts and college game film.

One thing that I miss is there use to be an exhibition game of college all-stars vs.either the SB runner ups or a conference championship game runner up. At least you could see the alleged future stars of the NFL go up against actual NFL players before the draft.

Drek
04-24-2012, 10:24 AM
Valid point. But he hasn't even lived up to the billing of a 3rd round pick as of yet. This is his make or break year. The knees are fixed, no more excuses. Time to impact some games, not just assist on tackles now and then.

See, now that underscores the point about Alualu I was trying to make though. His performance over the last two years is better than anything any Broncos DT has done, isn't it? Del Rio needed two starters at DT from the draft and in three rounds he and Gene Smith pulled out two starters.

Alualu had an incredibly low ceiling for the #10 overall pick, but his floor was also very high coming out of school. The notion that he's supposed to be a game changer is the problem here. The Jags bucked conventional wisdom and instead of taking the expected boom/bust type took a guy who will probably never make a pro-bowl but will start every game when healthy (or close to it) for a good long time.

If you could assure the Broncos of getting an Alualu and a Knighton with their first two picks in this draft I'd bet they'd gladly take it, because that means DT is no longer a hole to be concerned with. Will we generate tons of interior sacks? Nope, but we won't hemorrhage rushing yardage or let every QB escape from DE pressure. Doom and Miller will give us plenty of sacks then.

Del Rio and Fox don't need to find us future star DTs. They need to find us solid starter types who can get to work sooner than later. They've shown the ability to do just that at DT, now we need them to do it again.

Agamemnon
04-24-2012, 01:45 PM
At some point the bull**** has to end. This is perhaps the best DT draft in God knows how long, and the value really starts in the Late 1st - Mid 2nd for potential impact D-linemen. Our current roster of DTs is crap. I mean if it is EVER going to happen, it's this year. The stars are aligned.

Except that we are looking for immediate impact players to compliment our "win now with Manning" approach, so really the stars aren't aligned at all as DT's very rarely have any real impact in their first couple seasons. And Fox has a history of not selecting DT's early just as much as the Broncos. It just isn't going to happen, and peoples' heads are going to explode like every other year it doesn't happen. Not sure why people never learn...

pricejj
04-24-2012, 03:37 PM
If you could assure the Broncos of getting an Alualu and a Knighton with their first two picks in this draft I'd bet they'd gladly take it, because that means DT is no longer a hole to be concerned with. Will we generate tons of interior sacks? Nope, but we won't hemorrhage rushing yardage or let every QB escape from DE pressure. Doom and Miller will give us plenty of sacks then.

Del Rio and Fox don't need to find us future star DTs. They need to find us solid starter types who can get to work sooner than later. They've shown the ability to do just that at DT, now we need them to do it again.

So I guess I should just be happy with Still or Reyes in the 1st? Eh, you might be right...