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View Full Version : SAFE California: Death Penalty in CA to be revisited on November ballot


houghtam
04-23-2012, 08:32 PM
http://www.safecalifornia.org/home

I know there's already a politics thread, so merge it if you have to.

This is an issue that's very important to me, so I just had to post it up here.

enjolras
04-23-2012, 08:37 PM
I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 08:45 PM
I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.

I'm anti-death penalty for those reasons and more. There's nothing that the death penalty (in its current and any realistic form) can solve that life without parole cannot, and it's WAY more expensive to carry out. That narrows the death penalty down to being nothing more than vengeance, IMO.

I also don't think human beings, a society, a government, or a judicial system have the right to take a human life.

TheReverend
04-23-2012, 08:53 PM
I'm anti-death penalty for those reasons and more. There's nothing that the death penalty (in its current and any realistic form) can solve that life without parole cannot, and it's WAY more expensive to carry out. That narrows the death penalty down to being nothing more than vengeance, IMO.

I also don't think human beings, a society, a government, or a judicial system have the right to take a human life.

I do. There are evil people in this world that deserve far worse than prison, and frankly, far worse than death.

Tax payers shouldnt be footing the bill for even meager sustenance for molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, etc when bullets are a matters of pennies.

enjolras
04-23-2012, 08:54 PM
I do. There are evil people in this world that deserve far worse than prison, and frankly, far worse than death.

Tax payers shouldnt be footing the bill for even meager sustenance for molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, etc when bullets are a matters of pennies.

Do you mind putting innocent people to death? Serious question.

TheReverend
04-23-2012, 08:56 PM
Do you mind putting innocent people to death? Serious question.

Of course. I think that fear is EXTREMELY over-blown though. And frankly, with the advancements made in scientific support for law enforcement, we go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY beyond "reasonable doubt" these days.

Jay3
04-23-2012, 08:58 PM
Do you mind putting innocent people to death? Serious question.

Do you mind putting innocent people in prison for life without parole? With no special interest groups funded to try and endlessly appeal? Those guys get put away and no, there's not anyone trying to endlessly prove their innocence.

Erroneous conviction is a great wrong in and of itself. But the inherent risk of error in any system shouldn't negate justice in any case.

Some crimes warrant death as punishment.

If we can tolerate that there will be innocent children inevitably killed as "collateral damage" in war, we ought to be able to function with the death penalty on practical grounds.

To the person who says "It is immoral to take a life, and we should not do it no matter the practicalities," I say "good argument, and good for you." That conundrum we will just have to decide by the political process, as power is vested in the people.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:06 PM
To the person who says "It is immoral to take a life, and we should not do it no matter the practicalities," I say "good argument, and good for you." That conundrum we will just have to decide by the political process, as power is vested in the people.

Not trying to start a war here, but what, exactly, are the "practicalities" of the death penalty in any reasonable form it could take in our justice system? Let's face it, there will never be a "oh you just got convicted and sentenced to death, please follow me to this room over here" Death Penalty in the US. Ever. That means it is exponentially more expensive to put someone to death than to house them, away from society and unable to harm anyone else, until they die.

Unless you mean "practicality" as in vengeance. Rev says some people deserve to die. "Deserve" to me sounds like vengeance, and IMO that's not a sound basis for a justice system in any respect.

broncosteven
04-23-2012, 09:08 PM
I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.

That is kinda how I feel about weed.

errand
04-23-2012, 09:10 PM
The problem with the death penalty is that too many of those sitting on death row aren't dead.....

Advancements in forensic science have overturned convictions of prisoners.....and those same advancements have helped vastly reduced the numbers of wrongful convictions.

broncosteven
04-23-2012, 09:10 PM
Not trying to start a war here, but what, exactly, are the "practicalities" of the death penalty in any reasonable form it could take in our justice system? Let's face it, there will never be a "oh you just got convicted and sentenced to death, please follow me to this room over here" Death Penalty in the US. Ever. That means it is exponentially more expensive to put someone to death than to house them, away from society and unable to harm anyone else, until they die.

Unless you mean "practicality" as in vengeance. Rev says some people deserve to die. "Deserve" to me sounds like vengeance, and IMO that's not a sound basis for a justice system in any respect.

Timothy McVie proved that the justice system can get it right.

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 09:14 PM
i am all for the death penalty, in fact i think america's legal system is too pussified. if you are sentenced to death i think the state should get on the ball and kill that person right away. none of this appeals for decades crap. just you were sentenced, what would you like for your last meal and flip the switch. do it over a weekend.

also get rid of the guilty by reason of insanity crap. you're guilty, who gives a **** if you were crazy. you are dangerous and need to be taken care of.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:16 PM
Timothy McVie proved that the justice system can get it right.

I respectfully disagree.

The only thing it solved was satisfying those who wanted to see him die.

It did not prevent him from committing future crimes any more than life in prison would have.

TheReverend
04-23-2012, 09:16 PM
Not trying to start a war here, but what, exactly, are the "practicalities" of the death penalty in any reasonable form it could take in our justice system? Let's face it, there will never be a "oh you just got convicted and sentenced to death, please follow me to this room over here" Death Penalty in the US. Ever. That means it is exponentially more expensive to put someone to death than to house them, away from society and unable to harm anyone else, until they die.

Unless you mean "practicality" as in vengeance. Rev says some people deserve to die. "Deserve" to me sounds like vengeance, and IMO that's not a sound basis for a justice system in any respect.

"Vengeance" is more than a "basis for a justice system" mi amigo. It's the foundation.

Boom. Just dropped some "Code of Hammurabi" history on ya.

TheReverend
04-23-2012, 09:19 PM
I respectfully disagree.

The only thing it solved was satisfying those who wanted to see him die.

It did not prevent him from committing future crimes any more than life in prison would have.

http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3

Adjust that to current $ and we're probably talking 55k a year for these animals.

Even a SHORT life in prison sentence of 20 years is 1.1 MILLION dollars of tax payer money.

You talk about respecting life... but respect is earned. When someone won't respect the life of someone else, they don't deserve any better.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:21 PM
"Vengeance" is more than a "basis for a justice system" mi amigo. It's the foundation.

Boom. Just dropped some "Code of Hammurabi" history on ya.

Remind me what happened to the ancient Babylonians again?

broncosteven
04-23-2012, 09:23 PM
I respectfully disagree.

The only thing it solved was satisfying those who wanted to see him die.

It did not prevent him from committing future crimes any more than life in prison would have.

Inmates continue to perform criminal activities from prison all the time. The guy was responsible for the bombing, they gathered proof, tried him, put him to death.

There was no doubt what he was trying to accomplish. I feel safer with him gone.

UberBroncoMan
04-23-2012, 09:23 PM
I do. There are evil people in this world that deserve far worse than prison, and frankly, far worse than death.

Tax payers shouldnt be footing the bill for even meager sustenance for molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, etc when bullets are a matters of pennies.

Bingo

We've wasted billions on the collective scum of humanity.

TheReverend
04-23-2012, 09:24 PM
Remind me what happened to the ancient Babylonians again?

Well that's an awful rebuttal...

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:24 PM
http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3

Adjust that to current $ and we're probably talking 55k a year for these animals.

Even a SHORT life in prison sentence of 20 years is 1.1 MILLION dollars of tax payer money.

You talk about respecting life... but respect is earned. When someone won't respect the life of someone else, they don't deserve any better.

Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downloads/5.3.H_LATCostArticle.pdf

UberBroncoMan
04-23-2012, 09:27 PM
Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downloads/5.3.H_LATCostArticle.pdf

There's a reason crime is so low in the Middle East (granted they use torture too).

If peddling coke or armed robbery meant the death penalty you'd see a severe drop off in this type of ****.

Also, we need to speed up the death penalty. Years of waiting is retarded.

broncosteven
04-23-2012, 09:32 PM
Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downloads/5.3.H_LATCostArticle.pdf

Stats are like the Bible, anyone can use them to prove their point.

It comes down to the fact that we need a deterrent that people committing heinous acts are aware they will face if caught.

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 09:34 PM
There's a reason crime is so low in the Middle East (granted they use torture too).

If peddling coke or armed robbery meant the death penalty you'd see a severe drop off in this type of ****.

Also, we need to speed up the death penalty. Years of waiting is retarded.

Because they don't report it and/or things like abusing your woman don't count as crimes.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us

When an article in the Egyptian criminal code says that if a woman has been beaten by her husband "with good intentions" no punitive damages can be obtained, then to hell with political correctness. And what, pray tell, are "good intentions"? They are legally deemed to include any beating that is "not severe" or "directed at the face." What all this means is that when it comes to the status of women in the Middle East, it's not better than you think. It's much, much worse.

In a 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, more than 80 percent of Egyptian women said they'd experienced sexual harassment and more than 60 percent of men admitted to harassing women.

TheReverend
04-23-2012, 09:34 PM
Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downloads/5.3.H_LATCostArticle.pdf

^ "Per year" is one key word... not intimating the lower duration.

Regardless, most of that is due to bleeding hearts as well and as absurd as avoiding the death penalty.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:35 PM
There's a reason crime is so low in the Middle East (granted they use torture too).

If peddling coke or armed robbery meant the death penalty you'd see a severe drop off in this type of ****.

Also, we need to speed up the death penalty. Years of waiting is retarded.

Definitely, because the first place I look when looking for a model of justice and equality is the Middle East.

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 09:35 PM
Stats are like the Bible, anyone can use them to prove their point.

It comes down to the fact that we need a deterrent that people committing heinous acts are aware they will face if caught.

It's called prison.

UberBroncoMan
04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Definitely, because the first place I look when looking for a model of justice and equality is the Middle East.

Equality? You walk into a store and gun down my brother so you can hit a register to feed your coke habit?

Guess what. You should die.

Equality.

OBF1
04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Jails are full of people that are innocent.... If you listen to those that are behind bars.

I fully stand 100% behind the death penalty, If someone has taken another life, rapes a woman or child or acts of terrorism against the United States.

Living in California, I can not stand the pacifist pussies that have invaded and taken over this once proud state. California has had the largest number of mass/serial murderers in the country and trying to say that these POS animals deserve to live is a freekin joke. I do not wish that one day that a family member or child of your is not raped, then butchered by one of these pure evil people.... Because I would hate to hear you tell the judge/jury at sentencing that life in prison is a fair trade off for the heinous crime that was commited.

If asked, I would not miss a second of sleep if it was me administering the lethal injection, pulling the trigger in a firing squad or flipping the switch on the electric chair putting to death anyone that caused harm to a member of my family.


The average cost to house an inmate is approx $129.04 PER DAY

That is $47,099.96 per year. A 40 year "Life sentence" = $1.883,998, not including yearly increases. It would cost me less tax money if we fried every last SOB that is on death row in California (704) than it will cost to house them for the rest of thier useless lives.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:38 PM
^ "Per year" is one key word... not intimating the lower duration.

Regardless, most of that is due to bleeding hearts as well and as absurd as avoiding the death penalty.

But unfortunately it's the reality, and is not going to change. Ever.

As I said, you can hope all you want that we had a system where we kill people sentenced to death immediately. But it's not realistic. This is the system we have, and in the system we have, the death penalty is not a cheaper option than life without parole. It's also never been proven to be a deterrent. I'm sure McVeigh was really on the fence doing what he was going to do, knowing that he might face capital punishment.

UberBroncoMan
04-23-2012, 09:39 PM
Jails are full of people that are innocent.... If you listen to those that are behind bars.

I fully stand 100% behind the death penalty, If someone has taken another life, rapes a woman or child or acts of terrorism against the United States.

Living in California, I can not stand the pacifist pussies that have invaded and taken over this once proud state. California has had the largest number of mass/serial murderers in the country and trying to say that these POS animals deserve to live is a freekin joke. I sure hope one day that a family member or child of your is not raped, then butchered by one of these pure evil people.... Because I would hate to hear you tell the judge/jury at sentencing that life in prison is a fair trade off for the heinous crime that was commited.

If asked, I would not miss a second of sleep if it was me administering the lethal injection, pulling the trigger in a firing squad or flipping the switch on the electric chair putting to death anyone that caused harm to a member of my family.


The average cost to house an inmate is approx $129.04 PER DAY

That is $47,099.96 per year. A 40 year "Life sentence" = $1.883,998, not including yearly increases. It would cost me less tax money if we fried every last SOB that is on death row in California (704) than it will cost to house them for the rest of thier useless lives.

That's what I'm talking about.

I do feel horrible for anyone who is innocent and in prison.

Our entire death row system is pathetic though. Dragging it out forever.

Once we've determined without a doubt that someone is guilty.

No years of appeals.

*between the eyes*

cutthemdown
04-23-2012, 09:43 PM
A bigger problem is we are close as a country to spending more on prisons then we do on education. Once that shift is complete we can kiss our country goodbye.

We need segregated prisons by race and gang. We need to make prisons more modernized so less guards are needed. We need to make these prisoners work more, to make the prisons less off a financial burden.

As far as the death penalty goes I am against it in most cases. We just can not ever kill a person who was innocent of the crime they are being killed for.

Unless a murder has multiple eye witnesses, or a confession the inmate does not recant, i vote for life in prison, doing hard labor. We are too easy on prisoners they should all be working working working. 12 hour days, 6 days a week.

cutthemdown
04-23-2012, 09:45 PM
Equality? You walk into a store and gun down my brother so you can hit a register to feed your coke habit?

Guess what. You should die.

Equality.

I agree as long as there is more then one eyewitness, a video, or a confession. Its hard for me to send someone to death on DNA evidence alone. It's been shown they don't always get that right, and sometimes outright lie about it.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:45 PM
I do not wish that one day that a family member or child of your is not raped, then butchered by one of these pure evil people.... Because I would hate to hear you tell the judge/jury at sentencing that life in prison is a fair trade off for the heinous crime that was commited.

That is absolutely what I would say. Sorry man, I'm a pacifist.

cutthemdown
04-23-2012, 09:46 PM
Also if we have death penalty for rape, then the penalty for crying wolf on the rape would also have to be death. That is why i don't support the death penalty in rape cases. Women lie about it far too much.

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 09:49 PM
Doing the math using Reverend and Houghtam's numbers (assuming they are all correct and I'm reading this right). The average time from sentencing to execution is just under 15 years. At 100k per year in additional costs that's 1.4 million. Add in the minimum 1.1 million in additional costs for the trial itself and you have at least 2.5 million spent on this one inmate. Using the 55k a year figure Reverend posted that's a minimum of 45 years before it becomes MORE expensive to just lock them up for life. Also you get the added benefit of never having to worry about executing an innocent person.

UberBroncoMan
04-23-2012, 09:50 PM
That is absolutely what I would say. Sorry man, I'm a pacifist.

Nothing wrong with that. To each their own.

That said, pacifist societies are always taken advantage of or conquered at the end of the day.

Archer81
04-23-2012, 09:50 PM
Remind me what happened to the ancient Babylonians again?


So because their civilization faded in time, like all civilizations do and will, the basis for codified law ceases to be important?

:Broncos:

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:51 PM
A bigger problem is we are close as a country to spending more on prisons then we do on education. Once that shift is complete we can kiss our country goodbye.

We need segregated prisons by race and gang. We need to make prisons more modernized so less guards are needed. We need to make these prisoners work more, to make the prisons less off a financial burden.

As far as the death penalty goes I am against it in most cases. We just can not ever kill a person who was innocent of the crime they are being killed for.

Unless a murder has multiple eye witnesses, or a confession the inmate does not recant, i vote for life in prison, doing hard labor. We are too easy on prisoners they should all be working working working. 12 hour days, 6 days a week.

Labor I can get behind. Seclusion I can get behind. No television, schooling, libraries, or really any amenities for people convicted of violent crimes. Getting rid of the fruitless war on drugs will also free up a lot of dough and room in prisons.

And you're right about prison vs. education. Unfortunately that also costs taxpayer money, and if you think people are so quick to say "that human being is not worth my tax dollars" about prison inmates, take a look at nation-wide millage proposals on Election Day.

Funny thing is, it's mostly the same people voting against the millage proposals as are pro-death penalty, so the situation will likely never improve on either front.

Kaylore
04-23-2012, 09:54 PM
I believe in forgiveness and that people can change.

I also believe that evil isn't a condition that can be removed from some people. They are overwhelmingly the minority, but they are so terrible and wicked that they are beyond rehabilitation. I also believe in the rights of the victim's and their families. For this reason, I am for the death penalty.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 09:58 PM
So because their civilization faded in time, like all civilizations do and will, the basis for codified law ceases to be important?

:Broncos:

That comment was not meant as a point for the argument. Come on, you ought to know me better than that.

Rev's reference to the Code of Hammurabi isn't really a very good argument, in that the basis of the Code is not revenge, it's atonement.

There is a big difference between the two, especially considering the difference in complexities between a society from 4000 years ago and ours today.

That One Guy
04-23-2012, 10:05 PM
Randomly gas all the prisons for all I care.

In cases where there's absolutely no chance the convicted is innocent (i.e. clear video footage), I think they should take em out in the back and put a bullet in them immediately after the trial.

Be a good member of society, leave society, or be removed from society. Those in prison are still a part of society as we have to support them. Quit being bitches and start clearing out the prisons.

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 10:09 PM
I was actually thinking about this the other day... it's interesting the way people around the world feel about this. My stance has pretty much been stated already:

I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.

When I was in Europe, the Europeans were never afraid about pointing out that the US is one of the only developed nations that still utilized the death penalty. When you look at the stats, it's kinda shocking:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Death_Penalty_World_Map.svg

Blue: Abolished for all crimes
Green: Abolished for crimes not committed in exceptional circumstances (such as crimes committed in time of war)
Orange: Legal form of punishment but not used in the last 10 years (or has a moratorium in effect).
Red: Legal form of punishment for certain offenses

I'd like to point out that the EU does carry out capital punishment at the International Criminal Court for war crimes. Slobodan Milošević was the las person to be put to death in Europe in the Netherlands in 2006.

My point is that the ICC does try very serious cases for the death penalty, and what this is ultimately, is a question of sovereignty. The US Government hates international treaties and (for the most part) alliances, and therefore doesn't see the International Court as responsible for these duties.

That One Guy
04-23-2012, 10:13 PM
I was actually thinking about this the other day... it's interesting the way people around the world feel about this. My stance has pretty much been stated already:



When I was in Europe, the Europeans were never afraid about pointing out that the US is one of the only developed nations that still utilized the death penalty. When you look at the stats, it's kinda shocking:

Blue: Abolished for all crimes
Green: Abolished for crimes not committed in exceptional circumstances (such as crimes committed in time of war)
Orange: Legal form of punishment but not used in the last 10 years (or has a moratorium in effect).
Red: Legal form of punishment for certain offenses

I'd like to point out that the EU does carry out capital punishment at the International Criminal Court for war crimes. Slobodan Milošević was the las person to be put to death in Europe in the Netherlands in 2006.

My point is that the ICC does try very serious cases for the death penalty, and what this is ultimately, is a question of sovereignty. The US Government hates international treaties and (for the most part) alliances, and therefore doesn't see the International Court as responsible for these duties.

How many do we have in prisons and how many are actually executed? For all intents and purposes, it's pretty much done away with already. The days of taking bandits out and hanging them from trees is long gone. The percentage that still gets executed is so minute as to, possibly, merely be there so the threat of capital punishment lingers even though I seriously doubt its effectiveness as a deterrent.

Archer81
04-23-2012, 10:15 PM
That comment was not meant as a point for the argument. Come on, you ought to know me better than that.

Rev's reference to the Code of Hammurabi isn't really a very good argument, in that the basis of the Code is not revenge, it's atonement.

There is a big difference between the two, especially considering the difference in complexities between a society from 4000 years ago and ours today.


Its actually justice, not atonement.

Steal a man's goats and having your hand cut off is not atonement...which sounds oddly familiar to things done in a certain part of the world today.

:Broncos:

houghtam
04-23-2012, 10:17 PM
I was actually thinking about this the other day... it's interesting the way people around the world feel about this. My stance has pretty much been stated already:



When I was in Europe, the Europeans were never afraid about pointing out that the US is one of the only developed nations that still utilized the death penalty. When you look at the stats, it's kinda shocking:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Death_Penalty_World_Map.svg

Blue: Abolished for all crimes
Green: Abolished for crimes not committed in exceptional circumstances (such as crimes committed in time of war)
Orange: Legal form of punishment but not used in the last 10 years (or has a moratorium in effect).
Red: Legal form of punishment for certain offenses

I'd like to point out that the EU does carry out capital punishment at the International Criminal Court for war crimes. Slobodan Milošević was the las person to be put to death in Europe in the Netherlands in 2006.

My point is that the ICC does try very serious cases for the death penalty, and what this is ultimately, is a question of sovereignty. The US Government hates international treaties and (for the most part) alliances, and therefore doesn't see the International Court as responsible for these duties.

Yep. We're in some really interesting company right there.

Abolition of the death penalty is also a prerequisite for even joining the EU.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 10:19 PM
I'm anti-death penalty for those reasons and more. There's nothing that the death penalty (in its current and any realistic form) can solve that life without parole cannot, and it's WAY more expensive to carry out. That narrows the death penalty down to being nothing more than vengeance, IMO.

I also don't think human beings, a society, a government, or a judicial system have the right to take a human life.

Eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. The Norwegian killer laughed at the judges, because he will only receive a maximum 21 year sentence.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 10:27 PM
Eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. The Norwegian killer laughed at the judges, because he will only receive a maximum 21 year sentence.

Absolutely correct.

And what do the Norwegians say about that?

"This is the Norwegian way," said Trond Henry Blattmann, whose 17-year-old son was among the 69 people killed in Breivik's shooting massacre on Utoya island. "We need to carry this out in a dignified manner. If people were shouting and screaming this would be a circus and not a trial. We don't want it to be a circus."

http://news.yahoo.com/killer-gloats-court-norway-shows-no-anger-144357920.html

broncocalijohn
04-23-2012, 10:37 PM
We need to start killing people the cool way, hangings, 21 gun salute to the chest and watching disney channel. California has 3 injections which is now being looked at not being humanely. Disregard the murderer killing 6 people or so. Night Stalker is still alive. Unbelievable.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 10:45 PM
We need to start killing people the cool way, hangings, 21 gun salute to the chest and watching disney channel. California has 3 injections which is now being looked at not being humanely. Disregard the murderer killing 6 people or so. Night Stalker is still alive. Unbelievable.

George Carlin had a better idea...the all-suicide network.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cvFyZoTDZ2U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"In this depraved culture we live in, with all these reality shows, suicide and television would be a natural. I'll bet you could have an all-suicide channel on cable TV. I'll betcha...**** they've got all golf, I mean what the ****, eh?"

(apologies for the russian subtitles, it's the only clip of the bit I could find on YouTube)

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 10:46 PM
For those that think death is the ultimate form of punishment for the guilty I'd have to ask. Wouldn't being locked up in a tiny cell alone and with no mental stimulation for the rest of your life be infinitely worse than death? Our prisons might be one thing the Europeans find more cruel and inhumane than the death penalty itself. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 10:48 PM
For those that think death is the ultimate form of punishment for the guilty I'd have to ask. Wouldn't being locked up in a tiny cell alone and with no mental stimulation for the rest of your life be infinitely worse than death? Our prisons might be one thing the Europeans find more cruel and inhumane than the death penalty itself. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

No, my precious tax dollars and need to satisfy my base human urges trumps your logic.

UberBroncoMan
04-23-2012, 11:07 PM
For those that think death is the ultimate form of punishment for the guilty I'd have to ask. Wouldn't being locked up in a tiny cell alone and with no mental stimulation for the rest of your life be infinitely worse than death? Our prisons might be one thing the Europeans find more cruel and inhumane than the death penalty itself. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

It's definitely worse than death.

It's not worth $1,000,000+ dollars per person to supply them with it though.

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 11:08 PM
Yep. We're in some really interesting company right there.

Abolition of the death penalty is also a prerequisite for even joining the EU.

One of the main reasons Turkey is struggling to get in.

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 11:11 PM
It's definitely worse than death.

It's not worth $1,000,000+ dollars per person to supply them with it though.

I knew a person once that was a Seventh Day Adventist, and as such was strictly against the death penalty. Which reminded me of my religious history course and knowing that the Baptist movement started out as a somewhat mystical, and very pacifist movement.

The early Baptists didn't drink or smoke, they frowned upon eating meat, and were strictly opposed to war, abortion, the death penalty but were also strictly opposed to being involved in politics.

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 11:19 PM
For those that think death is the ultimate form of punishment for the guilty I'd have to ask. Wouldn't being locked up in a tiny cell alone and with no mental stimulation for the rest of your life be infinitely worse than death? Our prisons might be one thing the Europeans find more cruel and inhumane than the death penalty itself. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

Please. These guys have no worries that normal people do. No rent payments, no bills, no real job, books to read, 3 square meals a day. Avoid rape and shivs and you are fine.

bowtown
04-23-2012, 11:22 PM
Please. These guys have no worries that normal people do. No rent payments, no bills, no real job, books to read, 3 square meals a day. Avoid rape and shivs and you are fine.

lol.

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 11:22 PM
It's definitely worse than death.

It's not worth $1,000,000+ dollars per person to supply them with it though.

Well if my math is right it takes 45 years for the death row inmates to cost less than a life sentence.

Also, considering the state of our prison system, if they did something unimaginably horrible warranting death they'll probably be shanked in prison anyway.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 11:22 PM
One of the main reasons Turkey is struggling to get in.

...and we thought not actually being in Europe was a big hurdle!

badump-tiss!

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 11:25 PM
Please. These guys have no worries that normal people do. No rent payments, no bills, no real job, books to read, 3 square meals a day. Avoid rape and shivs and you are fine.

Not sure if serious.

lonestar
04-23-2012, 11:27 PM
I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.

Have folks been executed that were not guitly of the crime that got them there.. absolutlety,

But I'll guess that if they were not guitly of that crime they did something as bad or worse they got away with..

that said, in todays DNA world there is little doubt that when they are convicted they did it..

Hang them High.. Do not spend decades in the appeal process..

The courts are overloaded with other things..

One two threee and they are toast.. IF convicted using DNA..

houghtam
04-23-2012, 11:30 PM
Have folks been executed that were not guitly of the crime that got them there.. absolutlety,

But I'll guess that if they were not guitly of that crime they did something as bad or worse they got away with..

Now there is sound logic that any jury would do well to follow! "You're not guilty of murder, but you probably did something just as bad, so...you die!"

that said, in todays DNA world there is little doubt that when they are convicted they did it..

Hang them High.. Do not spend decades in the appeal process..

The courts are overloaded with other things..

One two threee and they are toast.. IF convicted using DNA..

Never happen. Let's talk about reality, please.

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 11:34 PM
I believe in forgiveness and that people can change.

I also believe that evil isn't a condition that can be removed from some people. They are overwhelmingly the minority, but they are so terrible and wicked that they are beyond rehabilitation. I also believe in the rights of the victim's and their families. For this reason, I am for the death penalty.
While I agree people can change I don't think violent offenders should be afforded the chance to. I am a punishment should fit the crime believer. Murder should be the death penalty; plain and simple. Also back door policies in law that are used to get people out of their charges need to end. For instance I hate insanity pleas. It is just a way to get away with a crime. You killed someone who gives a **** if it was because u were crazy? You did the crime now u have to do the time or in the case of murder; die.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 11:41 PM
While I agree people can change I don't think violent offenders should be afforded the chance to. I am a punishment should fit the crime believer. Murder should be the death penalty; plain and simple. Also back door policies in law that are used to get people out of their charges need to end. For instance I hate insanity pleas. It is just a way to get away with a crime. You killed someone who gives a **** if it was because u were crazy? You did the crime now u have to do the time or in the case of murder; die.

What about people who simply don't have the mental faculties to understand what they're doing? Children? The mentally-handicapped? Or just kill em all? Hell, at least that would be consistent.

I agree the insanity plea is probably overused. But there are functionally deficient people who commit crimes that do not necessarily have the mental capacity to live in our society like a normal person would. These people (and they are people) need treatment, not...death.

snowspot66
04-23-2012, 11:44 PM
Have folks been executed that were not guitly of the crime that got them there.. absolutlety,

But I'll guess that if they were not guitly of that crime they did something as bad or worse they got away with..

that said, in todays DNA world there is little doubt that when they are convicted they did it..

Hang them High.. Do not spend decades in the appeal process..

The courts are overloaded with other things..

One two threee and they are toast.. IF convicted using DNA..

It's ok if they are innocent because they probably did something else? Then convict them of it. Burden of proof is on the state.

As for DNA there are large backlogs of evidence to be run, evidence gets lost or contaminated, sh*t happens, people screw up, the police collecting the evidence **** it up or get tunnel vision and railroad a suspect. There's always room for doubt. Look at Amanda Knox in Italy.

Then there's arson. The people we put in charge of investigating arson don't know the first thing about it. They aren't properly trained to do the investigation. In arson cases people are being convicted based on old wives tales and pseudo-science.

Texas executed a man for arson in 2004. You may have heard of this. Real experts say that the fire wasn't even arson. Just a tragic disaster.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-08-25/news/chi-090825willingham_1_texas-forensic-science-commission-willingham-case-willinghams-house


The state fire marshal on the case, Beyler concluded in his report, had "limited understanding" of fire science. The fire marshal "seems to be wholly without any realistic understanding of fires and how fire injuries are created," he wrote.

The marshal's findings, he added, "are nothing more than a collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do with science-based fire investigation."

Over the past five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by nine of the nation's top fire scientists -- first for the Tribune, then for the Innocence Project, and now for the commission. All concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify the determination of arson.

We can never be 100% certain about anything. Either there are other variables that can come into play or our very understanding of the issue may be fundamentally flawed. Even one innocent death in a million is too many when it serves no advantage or purpose other than revenge.

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 11:44 PM
Have folks been executed that were not guitly of the crime that got them there.. absolutlety,

But I'll guess that if they were not guitly of that crime they did something as bad or worse they got away with..

that said, in todays DNA world there is little doubt that when they are convicted they did it..

Hang them High.. Do not spend decades in the appeal process..

The courts are overloaded with other things..

One two threee and they are toast.. IF convicted using DNA..

Agreed. And more than likely violent crimes would decrease in number a lot if it was obvious that the legal system won't coddle criminals anymore. If the appeals process that in many cases lasts for over a decade was ended and within days of a death penalty the sentence was carried out 2 things would happen. Tax payer costs for prisons would decrease and violent crimes would drop in number, because would be offenders would worry about the potential price. Right now most violent criminals know people already incarcerated so going to prison is like a stay with the boys for many of them.

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 11:53 PM
What about people who simply don't have the mental faculties to understand what they're doing? Children? The mentally-handicapped? Or just kill em all? Hell, at least that would be consistent.

I agree the insanity plea is probably overused. But there are functionally deficient people who commit crimes that do not necessarily have the mental capacity to live in our society like a normal person would. These people (and they are people) need treatment, not...death.
If they are incapable of knowing right from wrong in killing someone then yes They should die. They are violent and incapable of policing themselves. They should not be given the chance to harm another person. If a dog is violent it gets put down regardless of age or living conditions. I knoe that isn't a perfect example, but if you do kill someone the price shiuld be the same for everyone, regardless of mental ability. Like that dumb bitch in Denver who dragged a tow truck operator for a mile and a half killing him. She deserved death, not the 20 years she got especially whrn u consider she will likely only serve half that

houghtam
04-23-2012, 11:55 PM
If they are incapable of knowing right from wrong in killing someone then yes They should die. They are violent and incapable of policing themselves. They should not be given the chance to harm another person. If a dog is violent it gets put down regardless of age or living conditions. I knoe that isn't a perfect example, but if you do kill someone the price shiuld be the same for everyone, regardless of mental ability. Like that dumb b**** in Denver who dragged a tow truck operator for a mile and a half killing him. She deserved death, not the 20 years she got especially whrn u consider she will likely only serve half that

Awesome, like I said, at least you're consistent.

Folks, let the record show that BroncoMan4ever is in favor of killing children and the mentally handicapped.

lonestar
04-24-2012, 12:02 AM
A bigger problem is we are close as a country to spending more on prisons then we do on education. Once that shift is complete we can kiss our country goodbye.

We need segregated prisons by race and gang. We need to make prisons more modernized so less guards are needed. We need to make these prisoners work more, to make the prisons less off a financial burden.

As far as the death penalty goes I am against it in most cases. We just can not ever kill a person who was innocent of the crime they are being killed for.

Unless a murder has multiple eye witnesses, or a confession the inmate does not recant, i vote for life in prison, doing hard labor. We are too easy on prisoners they should all be working working working. 12 hour days, 6 days a week.

Maybe find an inhabitable place and ship them to it..Used to work in the old days..

those that survive more power to them those that do not, well less scum on earth..

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 12:05 AM
Not sure if serious.

To a degree I am. What are the real worries in prison? Boredom being in a box the rest of your life. Violence from other inmates. No real contact with the outside world. Other than that You're taken care of.

Currently I am working my ass off I'm 2 **** jobs to pay rentand bills. I live on ramen noodles and rice. I have no medical insurance because I cant afford it.

Inmates have no bills 3 square meals a day can see a doctor any time they get sick and not worry about the cost. Take away the rape and violence and their lives are better than mine right now. But I get to see the sun whenever I want. No scratch that I am always working so inmates get to see the sun more than me.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 12:09 AM
"But I'll guess that if they were not guitly of that crime they did something as bad or worse they got away with.."

this is possibly one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen posted. Geezus. I won't say more about it, but think about how effed up that is just for a moment, well you didn't actually commit the crime you are being convicted and sentenced to die for, but hey you probably did something bad so you should die anyway. Just amazingly daft.

As for the Death penatly, well I have to admit I am on the fence about it. I do see a need to actually put some of these criminals to death. Not because I think it's cost effective though. Fundamentally it's not about cost savings. It's about justice. Does the punishment fit the crime? When I did wrong things as a child, I owned it, apologized and was suitably punished accordingly. These people who come to court should be doing the same, but very rarely do any of them take responsibility for their crimes. I would expect some mercy for them if they did show remorse and did actually actively try to change. But the fact is, the very extreme ones, like child molestors or rapists or some murderers will not change and they can never be released into society again. In some ways I think capital punishment if used in a timely manner (because right now it's a joke) would be more compassionate, sort of like putting a sick animal down. I have no problem with euthanasia either for that matter. The arguments about capital punishment as a deterrent for others is ludicrous given the way it is utilized now. It is of course a permanent deterrent for person executed, but it doesn't effectively stop anyone else. Why would it? When it takes on average 20 years to actually execute someone. Could this be fixed, the process? yes, but how much of our humanity do we want to lose in the process? I say let prison justice do it's thing. It worked for Dahmer. Throw the bastards in a deep dark hole and feed them one ****ty meal a day and make license plates or crochet handbags, but never let em out.

As a society, be prememptive, encourage education, encourage taking responsibility for actions by doling out punishments that suit individual's actions. A kid tags a building, make them spend a month cleaning walls, roadways, etc and take away cell phones, etc. Some a-hole gets caught with a DUI and over the legal limit, take away their license for a year and have them help clean up car accidents. 2nd time caught throw their ass in jail for a month or so and volunteer them at an emergency room for a year during the post midnight shifts to see what happens to drunken douchebags or the people they hurt. I am just throwing this out there, but to bring down costs of criminality the money needs to go into preventing it or we will just continue to see more prisons built. Hell, export our criminals to France. They can have them. ;D

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 12:11 AM
Awesome, like I said, at least you're consistent.

Folks, let the record show that BroncoMan4ever is in favor of killing children and the mentally handicapped.

Wow u do love to go broad strokes there to make yourself seem like the righteous one and those in favor look like scum. But to help you, yes I am in favor of killing children and mentally handicapped if they did a crime that deserves death, just like any other normal adult person deserves and would get

houghtam
04-24-2012, 12:20 AM
Wow u do love to go broad strokes there to make yourself seem like the righteous one and those in favor look like scum. But to help you, yes I am in favor of killing children and mentally handicapped if they did a crime that deserves death, just like any other normal adult person deserves and would get

I don't claim to be righteous, but I'm also not the one who compared someone who is mentally ill to a dog.

Archer81
04-24-2012, 12:33 AM
I believe the death penalty should continue to exist and be used.

Some people deserve the death penalty.No amount of time in prison will erase the debt they owe. They had no problem with taking someone's life. I have no problem with the state taking theirs. There is nothing to learn from these people. They know perfectly well what they did; did not care about the consequences and acted on their dark impulses.

:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 12:36 AM
I don't claim to be righteous, but I'm also not the one who compared someone who is mentally ill to a dog.

I used the dog reference as a way of saying a violent animal is put down regardless of its age, living conditions or the way it was raised and that should be the same for people. People with a propensity or predisposition to violence more often than not get worse in time; and regardless of age or mental ability should suffer the same consequences of a normal well adjusted adult

houghtam
04-24-2012, 12:37 AM
I used the dog reference as a way of saying a violent animal is put down regardless of its age, living conditions or the way it was raised and that should be the same for people. People with a propensity or predisposition to violence more often than not get worse in time; and regardless if age or mental ability should suffer the same consequences of a normal well adjusted adult

link?

enjolras
04-24-2012, 12:38 AM
But I'll guess that if they were not guitly of that crime they did something as bad or worse they got away with..

I can't tell if you're serious.

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 12:39 AM
link?

Give me til tomorrow and I will get u links. On my phone currently and it is a bitch to gather info on it

enjolras
04-24-2012, 12:42 AM
I believe the death penalty should continue to exist and be used.

Some people deserve the death penalty.No amount of time in prison will erase the debt they owe. They had no problem with taking someone's life. I have no problem with the state taking theirs. There is nothing to learn from these people. They know perfectly well what they did; did not care about the consequences and acted on their dark impulses.

:Broncos:

That isn't really what this debate is about tho. That's a position statement. What about killing an innocent person? Is the risk of killing an innocent (keep in mind, that person could be someone you love) worth the risk? Just in the last few years we've had hundreds of people exonerated thanks to new investigative techniques. We *know* we've already killed innocent people. Is murder justified just because a jury decided it was?

I don't think so. You can agree with the death penalty (I do), but disagree with it's implementation.

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 12:52 AM
That isn't really what this debate is about tho. That's a position statement. What about killing an innocent person? Is the risk of killing an innocent (keep in mind, that person could be someone you love) worth the risk? Just in the last few years we've had hundreds of people exonerated thanks to new investigative techniques. We *know* we've already killed innocent people. Is murder justified just because a jury decided it was?

I don't think so. You can agree with the death penalty (I do), but disagree with it's implementation.
The fact that many have been exonerated shows that our ability in finding the guilty and sparing the innocent has greatly improved. Now more than likely someone on trial would be the correct person on trial.

Because if that flipping the switch should happen more often and sooner for those on death row

Archer81
04-24-2012, 01:05 AM
That isn't really what this debate is about tho. That's a position statement. What about killing an innocent person? Is the risk of killing an innocent (keep in mind, that person could be someone you love) worth the risk? Just in the last few years we've had hundreds of people exonerated thanks to new investigative techniques. We *know* we've already killed innocent people. Is murder justified just because a jury decided it was?

I don't think so. You can agree with the death penalty (I do), but disagree with it's implementation.


I am thinking if someone is in prison for multiple instances of murder, any innocence they possesed is long gone.

I also think that any system devised will be flawed. Do innocent people get sentenced? Of course they do. People are not infallible. and since we are not infallible, why have the death penalty at all, carrying that further, why have prisons? We might have imprisoned someone who may be innocent. Maybe we should just hospitalize them all. Have them speak with a therapist and do group and then release them back into society. They can be fixed.

I am not advocating putting a needle into anyone and everyone who has a felony. I am aware that there may be a slight chance someone on death row is innocent. The odds that a John cofey is sitting there however is incredibly low. Odds are, guys on death row are there because they belong there. That sounds harsh, but I cant think of a different way to phrase it.

:Broncos:

cutthemdown
04-24-2012, 02:45 AM
We should tell Europe we are going to kill all our prisoners. Then tell them unless you want to save them, we will send them over in boats. Has that ever worked before.....er ****.

UberBroncoMan
04-24-2012, 03:43 AM
All in favor of dumping all our prisoners in Greenland say I!

bowtown
04-24-2012, 05:32 AM
Racial Disparities in California Death Sentencing

Summary The recent study by Glenn Pierce and Michael Radelet titled, "The Impact of Legally Inappropriate Factors on Death Sentencing for California Homicides, 1990-1999" (Santa Clara Law Review, 2005), is the first state-wide study on the role of race, ethnicity and geography in death sentencing in California. The authors reviewed all homicides that occurred in California from 1990-99, using records from the FBI and Vital Statistics. During this period, 302 death sentences were returned (close to half the number of people currently on death row in California). The study finds that race and ethnicity of victim, place, and community diversity are key factors in determining who is sentenced to die in this state.

Read the Full Study:
http://www.scu.edu/law/lawreview/article.html (http://law.scu.edu/lawreview/File/lawreview_46sclr001.pdf)

Summary of Findings
Geography and Community Diversity


Death sentence rates vary substantially from county to county in California and this variation cannot be explained simply based on homicide rates.



The highest rate of death sentencing occurs in counties with low population densities and a high proportion of non-Latino whites.



In low density communities where more than half the population is non-Latino white, 1.84 out of every 100 homicides results in a death sentence; in Los Angeles, .58 out of 100 homicides results in a death sentence.



Los AngelesCounty, which has the highest number of homicides in the state, has one of the lowest death sentence rates. The highest death sentence rates were found in Napa, King, Colusa, and ShastaCounties (ranging from 6 to 10%).



A person convicted of the same crime is more than three times more likely to be sentenced to die simply because the crime was committed in a predominantly white, rural community rather than a diverse, urban area.

Race and Ethnicity of Victim


Those who kill non-Latino whites are over three times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill African-Americans.



Those who kill non-Latino whites are over four times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill Latinos.



In cases where only one victim was killed and no felony was involved, those who kill non-Latino whites are over seven times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill African-Americans.



In cases where only one victim was killed and no felony was involved, those who kill non-Latino whites are over eleven times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill Latinos.

Needed Follow Up Action


The Legislature should require systemic data collection on homicides and death sentencing for more complete analysis.



Further research must be undertaken to determine where in the process the disparities enter; is the disparity caused by prosecutors’ charging practices, jurors’ decisions to return a death sentence, or somewhere in between?



Further research must be undertaken to determine whether a gender of victim disparity exists.

Other Interesting Facts


The California population is the most diverse in the nation. One third of the population is Latino (2000 Census).



The death rate by homicide in California varies substantially by race. African Americans are six times more likely to be murdered than whites in California.



While 27.6% of murder victims are white, 80% of execution in California have been for those convicted of killing whites.



28 out of 58 California counties had no death sentences in 1990-99.



Very few homicides result in death sentences: across the state, .89% of homicides result in death sentences.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=54

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 07:55 AM
link?

http://voices.yahoo.com/incarceration-criminals-rehabilitated-40079.html

Exerpt from the article from Iain Murray: Director of Research, Statistical Assessment Service in Washington D.C

Not all criminals are sentenced to life in prison. Some robbers, rapists and murderers: they do walk the streets after serving their prison sentences. According to Iain Murray, Director of Research, Statistical Assessment Service in Washington D.C., 70 percent of offenders will re-offend; however, only 50 percent of offenders who have participated in a rehabilitation program will re-offend again.

70% of unrehabilitated violent criminals will re-offend. and those who go to some sort of rehabilitation still 50% of them will re-offend. if the statistics showed a massive decrease in repeat offenders i would be more lenient in my stance, however, considering at least half of the offenders will do it again, i stick to my beliefs.

Kaylore
04-24-2012, 08:10 AM
You gotta love that "only 50%" part. What they don't tell you is that 50% many times does so over-and-over. You wanna talk about a waste of the judicial system's resources, let's talk about that group that keeps harming systems, wastes law enforcement's resources, wastes the judicial system's time and wastes the tax-payers' money on rehab that never takes.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 08:26 AM
You gotta love that "only 50%" part. What they don't tell you is that 50% many times does so over-and-over. You wanna talk about a waste of the judicial system's resources, let's talk about that group that keeps harming systems, wastes law enforcement's resources, wastes the judicial system's time and wastes the tax-payers' money on rehab that never takes.

In everything I make an opinion on, I like to identify outside parameters and work in so I feel like there's a context. When considering how to deal with criminals, I like to think of the money they require for various things and then figure whether the money is being prioritized correctly.

In this case, these reoffenders continually suck up court fees, prison costs, etc. As was pointed out before, schools keep getting their funding cut while prisons take more and more. Does a prisoner have a right to a fair punishment? Sure. Does a child have a right to potential in life? Definitely. Which should take priority? The child's potential or the rights of a criminal? I say the child's future.

When there's money to babysit criminals, we can babysit them. As it is, though, they should either be finding a way to be so productive as to support themselves or we should find a way to eliminate the issue. Very first on the list, for me, would be three strikes offenders. So you got incorrectly convicted for your 3rd strike? Well, you still had two backup chances that you burnt. They get no sympathy and I wouldn't shed a tear if they started clearing out prisons with cyanide capsules or a .45.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 09:02 AM
That is absolutely what I would say. Sorry man, I'm a pacifist.

As a pacifist, are you able to realize that you owe your own mindset to people who are willing to do what you arent?

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 09:05 AM
That comment was not meant as a point for the argument. Come on, you ought to know me better than that.

Rev's reference to the Code of Hammurabi isn't really a very good argument, in that the basis of the Code is not revenge, it's atonement.

There is a big difference between the two, especially considering the difference in complexities between a society from 4000 years ago and ours today.

:spit:

So you don't know where "Eye for an eye" comes from?

Or have you ever glanced through it and seen how much death penalty there is?!?!?

Rohirrim
04-24-2012, 09:14 AM
I'm opposed to the death penalty. It says more about the state that practices it than it does about the criminal who receives it. On the fiscal side, it's a massive waste of time and effort. Our courts have better things to do than endlessly bicker over death penalty issues at millions of dollars per case.

Besides, just think if we had executed Charles Manson (for example) shortly after he was convicted? He would have become a mythological figure, adored by the weird and ****ed up among us for generations. By letting him grow old in prison, he has become a nobody. A figure of ridicule. A joke. His power has been extinguished. I wish we had done the same with Ted Bundy. Let the passage of years show them up for the pieces of **** they are.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 09:24 AM
I'm opposed to the death penalty. It says more about the state that practices it than it does about the criminal who receives it. On the fiscal side, it's a massive waste of time and effort. Our courts have better things to do than endlessly bicker over death penalty issues at millions of dollars per case.

Besides, just think if we had executed Charles Manson (for example) shortly after he was convicted? He would have become a mythological figure, adored by the weird and ****ed up among us for generations. By letting him grow old in prison, he has become a nobody. A figure of ridicule. A joke. His power has been extinguished. I wish we had done the same with Ted Bundy. Let the passage of years show them up for the pieces of **** they are.

But they can't really be forgotten if they're continually brought up in the media. Bundy is history and working toward being forgotten. Manson still becomes news a few times a year. The worst thing you can do to a person is forget them after they're dead.

And, as has been noted a half dozen times in this thread, there's no more tragedy in killing an innocent person than there is in locking one away for their entire life. As you take their freedom and, in many cases, stunt their growth as a human, they might as well be dead. If you make the death penalty process no more involved than the life sentencing process, nobody loses by implementing it.

McDman
04-24-2012, 09:39 AM
We need the death penalty. They should make it a much quicker process and more efficiewnt and cheap.

Just bring back hanging or use firing squad.

As long as there is indisputable evidence I'm all for it.

Requiem
04-24-2012, 09:43 AM
Totally against the death penalty.

ludo21
04-24-2012, 09:49 AM
I am opposed.

McDman
04-24-2012, 09:59 AM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newso m

This is a perfect example of the pussification of our country. I went to high school with this girl. Her and her bf were kidnapped by five people, tortured, raped, and killed. Not one of them got the death penalty.

In fact, they are all getting a re trial bc the judge was buying pills from an ex convict.

Read the link and what they did to those people and tell me they deserve to live and be supported by the money I make.

It is 100% without doubt they did it and we still won't kill them. Pathetic.

Edit* sorry, 1 got the death penalty.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 10:09 AM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newso m

This is a perfect example of the pussification of our country. I went to high school with this girl. Her and her bf were kidnapped by five people, tortured, raped, and killed. Not one of them got the death penalty.

In fact, they are all getting a re trial bc the judge was buying pills from an ex convict.

Read the link and what they did to those people and tell me they deserve to live and be supported by the money I make.

It is 100% without doubt they did it and we still won't kill them. Pathetic.

Edit* sorry, 1 got the death penalty.

Pussification? seriously? In a discussion involving rape, you thought using a feminine gender slam was appropriate? could you not possibly have chosen a better word. I am not a fan of sexist terminology in general that indicates being female as weak, but it seems really grotesque in the context of rape. Just saying.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 10:10 AM
Pussification? seriously? In a discussion involving rape, you thought using a feminine gender slam was appropriate? could you not possibly have chosen a better word. I am not a fan of sexist terminology in general that indicates being female as weak, but it seems really grotesque in the context of rape. Just saying.

It's a saying. Quit being dramatic.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 10:19 AM
It's a saying. Quit being dramatic.

not being dramatic. words are important. How we use them speaks volumes.

I could've just come out and said, hey you are being a dickhole. It takes on whole new meaning when we are thoughtless in our use of words. Instead I approached it with a rational suggestion that perhaps a different word choice would make a better, more potent argument. Instead you chose a word that is deliberately inflammatory (and nobody above a teenage level uses pussification as a saying).

If you wanted to make a rational argument about the weaknesses and the flaws of the American justice system, why not just say, "The US justice system has become much weaker, due to failure to enforce penalties effectively and timely." You chose pussification because it deliberately calls attention in a provocative manner.

Hercules Rockefeller
04-24-2012, 10:23 AM
For everyone who talks about DNA evidence, so few cases actually have usable, relevant DNA evidence. The real world isn't CSI.

ghwk
04-24-2012, 10:25 AM
Philosophically I'm against it, and probably more against it for older cases in good old boy counties unless there is DNA evidence to support it at this point.

That having been said, on the practical side, especially now with DNA testing available for child murderers, child rapists and the example provided by McDman I'm all for it. I do not believe child molesters can be rehabbed.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 10:28 AM
Pussification? seriously? In a discussion involving rape, you thought using a feminine gender slam was appropriate? could you not possibly have chosen a better word. I am not a fan of sexist terminology in general that indicates being female as weak, but it seems really grotesque in the context of rape. Just saying.

Soooooooooooooooooo...

Am I really the only one that gets the irony in getting offended over the term equating feminine with weak?

Beantown Bronco
04-24-2012, 10:30 AM
I can't even tell you how many studies, papers, books, etc. I've both read and written about this very debate in order to get my masters in CJ, and I found a few things were consistently true:

As hough points out, it's always more expensive to put someone to death than it is to house them for life in prison. It's counterintuitive, but that's the way our system is set up.

and

States with the death penalty have consistently higher rates of crime than their neighboring non-death penalty states. It's simply not the deterrent it's advertised to be, given the fact that the types of criminals engaging in capital crimes aren't exactly logical thinkers.

Tombstone RJ
04-24-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm anti-death penalty for those reasons and more. There's nothing that the death penalty (in its current and any realistic form) can solve that life without parole cannot, and it's WAY more expensive to carry out. That narrows the death penalty down to being nothing more than vengeance, IMO.

I also don't think human beings, a society, a government, or a judicial system have the right to take a human life.

and yet I bet you're pro-choice too...

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 10:32 AM
For everyone who talks about DNA evidence, so few cases actually have usable, relevant DNA evidence. The real world isn't CSI.

agreed. and this is why I don't think it's inconceivable that a person could be convicted for a crime they didn't commit. For goodness sakes, there was plenty of evidence OJ killed Nicole Brown, but all it took was a good defense team teamed with a less than competent prosecutor. If OJ had not been famous and able to buy a defense, he probably would've gone to jail. The defense was clever enough to play on a jury's predisposition to think all cops are racist (captializing on the LA riots and it's aftermath) and on the idea of OJ as this All American guy who could not possibly be guilty of killing someone. the same could be done in the other direction, a competent prosecutor takes advantage of an inexperienced defense attorney defending a less that honorable appearing person. Even with science, people are fairly easily swayed by emotion.

McDman
04-24-2012, 10:32 AM
For those that think death is the ultimate form of punishment for the guilty I'd have to ask. Wouldn't being locked up in a tiny cell alone and with no mental stimulation for the rest of your life be infinitely worse than death? Our prisons might be one thing the Europeans find more cruel and inhumane than the death penalty itself. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

If this were the case why does almost every person on death row fight it until the very end with appeal after appel. If it was that bad you'd think they'd tire of it and just want to end it.

Beantown Bronco
04-24-2012, 10:37 AM
If this were the case why does almost every person on death row fight it until the very end with appeal after appel. If it was that bad you'd think they'd tire of it and just want to end it.

Ummm, maybe because you have a shot at freedom if you appeal. You have zero shot at freedom if you don't.

McDman
04-24-2012, 10:38 AM
Pussification? seriously? In a discussion involving rape, you thought using a feminine gender slam was appropriate? could you not possibly have chosen a better word. I am not a fan of sexist terminology in general that indicates being female as weak, but it seems really grotesque in the context of rape. Just saying.

Woah, ok. My bad.

Regardless, that's not what the post is about. It's about 5 people torturing two kids and only one getting the death penalty.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 10:39 AM
Soooooooooooooooooo...

Am I really the only one that gets the irony in getting offended over the term equating feminine with weak?

Please explain how that is ironic? Ironic statements (verbal irony) are statements that imply a meaning in opposition to their literal meaning. Explain how my pointing out the offensive wording is in opposition to any of the literal meaning in the statement.

If you said you found it humorous that I took offense at a statement about feminity when I am female, I would understand that, but it's not strictly speaking ironic. Now, if you are implying what I think you are, that by pointing out from my female perspective that statement is offensive it illustrates weakness while I am trying to present a positon of strength I can see the irony in that, but again you are applying your own assumptions and associate ideologies of feminity being weak.

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Please explain how that is ironic? Ironic statements (verbal irony) are statements that imply a meaning in opposition to their literal meaning. Explain how my pointing out the offensive wording is in opposition to any of the literal meaning in the statement.

If you said you found it humorous that I took offense at a statement about feminity when I am female, I would understand that, but it's not strictly speaking ironic. Now, if you are implying what I think you are, that by pointing out from my female perspective that statement is offensive it illustrates weakness while I am trying to present a positon of strength I can see the irony in that, but again you are applying your own assumptions and associate ideologies of feminity being weak.

Getting upset over an implied meaning of a word is about as big of an exhibition of weakness I can think of.

The implication of weakness being what is upsetting you and causing you to look weak is what makes it ironic.

McDman
04-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Ummm, maybe because you have a shot at freedom if you appeal. You have zero shot at freedom if you don't.

No. They appeal for life in prison. Many have no chance of parole.

broncocalijohn
04-24-2012, 10:43 AM
It is easy for the anti death penalty establishment. First, make the laws so the process of a killing can be dragged out for 30 years. Furthermore, make it easy to get a retrial right before the planned execution process starts (the real process). This helps the accused as many 30 years later could be dead or senile and cannot testify again. Furthermore, make the actual death process as complicated as possible then have "experts" tell the masses that the process is inhumane and delays the killing. Lastly, put out reports about how expensive it is to use the death penalty and these normally liberal minded people are all of sudden conservative by looking to save money instead of waste it. Hmm, recipe for trying to abolish the death penalty.

Beantown Bronco
04-24-2012, 10:48 AM
No. They appeal for life in prison. Many have no chance of parole.

Ah, I assumed that you were talking about appealing the verdict.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 10:55 AM
Getting upset over an implied meaning of a word is about as big of an exhibition of weakness I can think of.

The implication of weakness being what is upsetting you and causing you to look weak is what makes it ironic.

while I do like your explanation of irony, it is merely your interpretation, your belief it's a weak position to take so you create your own sense of irony based on your "feeling" that my interpretation is "weak."

Eh, it doesn't really matter. I am not actually offended, but I do think that interpretation is valid. the term p***Y is far too often linked to weakness, just as the word gay is. I only threw it out there because I am trying to improve my word choices too because quite often my tendancy to say exactly what I think gets me in trouble. It's good practice for me to debate things like this....anyway...there it is. I enjoyed this exercise...

Now I gots to go make my man a sammich...;D

TheReverend
04-24-2012, 10:56 AM
while I do like your explanation of irony, it is merely your interpretation, your belief it's a weak position to take so you create your own sense of irony based on your "feeling" that my interpretation is "weak."

Eh, it doesn't really matter. I am not actually offended, but I do think that interpretation is valid. the term p***Y is far to often used to ascribe weakness, just as the word gay is. I only threw it out there because I am trying to improve my word choices too because quite often my tendancy to say exactly what I think gets me in trouble. It's good practice for me to debate things like this....anyway...there it is. I enjoyed this exercise...

Now I gots to go make my man a sammich...;D

Uh... you were upset over a word enough to have at LEAST double digits posts about it on several different occasions. My interpretation doesn't really come into play here.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 10:58 AM
and yet I bet you're pro-choice too...

Nope, but let's stay on subject please.

Tombstone RJ
04-24-2012, 11:05 AM
It is easy for the anti death penalty establishment. First, make the laws so the process of a killing can be dragged out for 30 years. Furthermore, make it easy to get a retrial right before the planned execution process starts (the real process). This helps the accused as many 30 years later could be dead or senile and cannot testify again. Furthermore, make the actual death process as complicated as possible then have "experts" tell the masses that the process is inhumane and delays the killing. Lastly, put out reports about how expensive it is to use the death penalty and these normally liberal minded people are all of sudden conservative by looking to save money instead of waste it. Hmm, recipe for trying to abolish the death penalty.

the irony of the libbys baffles the mind. They will fight hard to protect the lives of convicted criminals (which I'm ok with) yet they will ignore the life of an unborn child and condone mass murder.

They will say killing a convicted criminal is "wrong" yet cling to evolution which has no basis and no foundation for any kind of morality which in turn allows them to kill unborn children ad hoc, "hey, it's not a person until I say it's a person."

Right and wrong, good and evil, it's all a game for the secular pluralists. The reality is they want to change the rules according to their beliefs.

McDman
04-24-2012, 11:07 AM
Ok, that post wasn't about the word pussy, it was about how ridiculous our system is to let these disgusting people live.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 11:10 AM
the irony of the libbys baffles the mind. They will fight hard to protect the lives of convicted criminals (which I'm ok with) yet they will ignore the life of an unborn child and condone mass murder.

They will say killing a convicted criminal is "wrong" yet cling to evolution which has no basis and no foundation for any kind of morality which in turn allows them to kill unborn children ad hoc, "hey, it's not a person until I say it's a person."

Right and wrong, good and evil, it's all a game for the secular pluralists. The reality is they want to change the rules according to their beliefs.

Thanks for hijacking the thread. I could get into that argument with you...but I won't.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 11:11 AM
Uh... you were upset over a word enough to have at LEAST double digits posts about it on several different occasions. My interpretation doesn't really come into play here.

so you've supported I was upset. the interpretation of being upset over word choice as being weak is in fact subjective.

At any rate, I am done word jacking the thread.

Short and to the point:
Death penalty is not cost effective, nor does it deter crime. Ethically it's questionable at best, though it is my interpretation both that punishments should suit the crime and for some it's kinder to put them down quickly rather than draw out a miserable existence.

Tombstone RJ
04-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Thanks for hijacking the thread. I could get into that argument with you...but I won't.

Just pointing out some ironies.

as for the death penalty, if states have it they should use it and not drag it out. If states don't have it fine. It's the prolonged process that makes for a very murky situation.

Tombstone RJ
04-24-2012, 11:15 AM
Thanks for hijacking the thread. I could get into that argument with you...but I won't.

oh, and the thread has already been hijacked by Rev and Miss I...

errand
04-24-2012, 11:17 AM
amazing how liberals that want to abolish the death penalty are staunch supporters of abortion. go figure.....

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 11:17 AM
while I do like your explanation of irony, it is merely your interpretation, your belief it's a weak position to take so you create your own sense of irony based on your "feeling" that my interpretation is "weak."

Eh, it doesn't really matter. I am not actually offended, but I do think that interpretation is valid. the term p***Y is far too often linked to weakness, just as the word gay is. I only threw it out there because I am trying to improve my word choices too because quite often my tendancy to say exactly what I think gets me in trouble. It's good practice for me to debate things like this....anyway...there it is. I enjoyed this exercise...

Now I gots to go make my man a sammich...;D

Speaking of pussy, can we have a thread where yours isn't involved? We know, you're a girl. We get it. Since you hang out on a football board with the rest of us, you're probably about as feminine as the rest of us as well. If you need attention that bad, flash your cooter at someone walking by and get the attention in person. It's not that hard for a woman to do.

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 11:18 AM
oh, and the thread has already been hijacked by Rev and Miss I...

yes it has. I duly apologize since I am the one who started it.

Now bring on the death penalty! I mean, not now of course, but you know what I mean. :wave:

Miss I.
04-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Speaking of p***Y, can we have a thread where yours isn't involved? We know, you're a girl. We get it. Since you hang out on a football board with the rest of us, you're probably about as feminine as the rest of us as well. If you need attention that bad, flash your cooter at someone walking by and get the attention in person. It's not that hard for a woman to do.

yes. I apologize. I can delete the posts if you like. I am sorry. really sorry. won't happen again. Ever. Sorry again.

McDman
04-24-2012, 11:22 AM
amazing how liberals that want to abolish the death penalty are staunch supporters of abortion. go figure.....

While I am not a Democrat, only liberal on matters that governemtn should not worry about, I support pro-choice as well as the death penalty.

Maybe I'm pro-death...

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 11:25 AM
I can't even tell you how many studies, papers, books, etc. I've both read and written about this very debate in order to get my masters in CJ, and I found a few things were consistently true:

As hough points out, it's always more expensive to put someone to death than it is to house them for life in prison. It's counterintuitive, but that's the way our system is set up.

and

States with the death penalty have consistently higher rates of crime than their neighboring non-death penalty states. It's simply not the deterrent it's advertised to be, given the fact that the types of criminals engaging in capital crimes aren't exactly logical thinkers.

If we trust our justice system, we shouldn't have any qualms implementing the punishments that arise from it. The fact that there's appeal after appeal after appeal suggests there's either too many loopholes or we don't trust the system to be accurate in the first place. It's more resource intensive because we let it be.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 11:26 AM
I used the dog reference as a way of saying a violent animal is put down regardless of its age, living conditions or the way it was raised and that should be the same for people. People with a propensity or predisposition to violence more often than not get worse in time; and regardless of age or mental ability should suffer the same consequences of a normal well adjusted adult

Alright, so I'm not a legal scholar...maybe Beantown can answer this for me, but...

If the legal system made the distinction that it doesn't matter who you are, if you commit murder you are held to the same standards as a sane adult, would they be able to just limit it to murder?

errand
04-24-2012, 12:51 PM
While I am not a Democrat, only liberal on matters that governemtn should not worry about, I support pro-choice as well as the death penalty.

Maybe I'm pro-death...

there are exceptions to everything.....

My stand on abortion is let's make it retro-active....some supporters state that it should be legal due to all the kids that will be eventually become burdens to society and end up as losers, criminals, etc...

I say let's get rid of those that we know have actually become losers and criminals, etc....*







*Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd myself

gyldenlove
04-24-2012, 01:08 PM
Thanks for hijacking the thread. I could get into that argument with you...but I won't.

When rational arguments do not exist people will always go for strawman arguments or just change the subject, there is a reason there has been no political debate in the States in so many years - you should really just treasure the first few pages you can before it gets derailed.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 01:17 PM
When rational arguments do not exist people will always go for strawman arguments or just change the subject, there is a reason there has been no political debate in the States in so many years - you should really just treasure the first few pages you can before it gets derailed.

Very good point, thank you.

This has turned into a "well I think the legal system should be changed" argument, when in fact that's not what this is about. No amount of whining is going to change the fact that the appeals process isn't going anywhere. It's simply a question of should we have capital punishment, when it's proven to be a more expensive option and has never proven to be a deterrent, or should we simply lock violent criminals away for the rest of their lives.

I would think that, knowing full well that the appeals process is not going anywhere, the "save money" crowd would be for life in prison, but I guess not.

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 02:46 PM
I can't even tell you how many studies, papers, books, etc. I've both read and written about this very debate in order to get my masters in CJ, and I found a few things were consistently true:

As hough points out, it's always more expensive to put someone to death than it is to house them for life in prison. It's counterintuitive, but that's the way our system is set up.

and

States with the death penalty have consistently higher rates of crime than their neighboring non-death penalty states. It's simply not the deterrent it's advertised to be, given the fact that the types of criminals engaging in capital crimes aren't exactly logical thinkers

to me the reason the rates of crime are higher in capitol punishment states is because even if they do have that sentence it never gets carried out. it is national news whenever a convict is actually put to death.

these convicts realize they can get the death sentence and then tie up the process in court for the next decade or longer.

change how the sentence is carried out and immediately carry out the sentence and crime rates would really drop.

BroncoMan4ever
04-24-2012, 02:53 PM
Alright, so I'm not a legal scholar...maybe Beantown can answer this for me, but...

If the legal system made the distinction that it doesn't matter who you are, if you commit murder you are held to the same standards as a sane adult, would they be able to just limit it to murder?

now that is where for me the gray area comes into play. murder, to me, regardless of age, mental ability or any deficiency should be a death sentence.

but other crimes that are horrific fall into a gray area. i mean, does someone deserve to die because of rape? drug trafficing? assault? or any other crimes.

in Thailand the punishment for drug trafficing is worse than murder. they believe that in the case of murder you kill one person whereas with drugs you can kill many people.

Beantown Bronco
04-24-2012, 02:57 PM
to me the reason the rates of crime are higher in capitol punishment states is because even if they do have that sentence it never gets carried out. it is national news whenever a convict is actually put to death.

these convicts realize they can get the death sentence and then tie up the process in court for the next decade or longer.

change how the sentence is carried out and immediately carry out the sentence and crime rates would really drop.

If you were correct, then logic would dictate that criminals would flock to the non-capital punishment states, because they could do the same exact crime and not even have to worry about tying up any court at all.

Trust me. These guys aren't logical thinkers at all. If they were, there would be no murder in those states. And nobody would commit more than 2 crimes in a "3 strikes and you're out" state. Interview after interview with criminals has demonstrated that the super majority of these folks don't think about the punishment before they do the act.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 03:14 PM
If you were correct, then logic would dictate that criminals would flock to the non-capital punishment states, because they could do the same exact crime and not even have to worry about tying up any court at all.

Trust me. These guys aren't logical thinkers at all. If they were, there would be no murder in those states. And nobody would commit more than 2 crimes in a "3 strikes and you're out" state. Interview after interview with criminals has demonstrated that the super majority of these folks don't think about the punishment before they do the act.

All this on top of the fact that basing legal precedent on a presumption of what someone is thinking about before the commit the crime is at best ludicrous, at worst Thought Police.

Agamemnon
04-24-2012, 03:28 PM
"Vengeance" is more than a "basis for a justice system" mi amigo. It's the foundation.

Boom. Just dropped some "Code of Hammurabi" history on ya.

I would guess that most people have different expectations of a modern justice system versus one from the bronze age, but maybe I'm just crazy...

Agamemnon
04-24-2012, 03:31 PM
I would think that, knowing full well that the appeals process is not going anywhere, the "save money" crowd would be for life in prison, but I guess not.

That's because the "save money" argument is just a rationalization people use to support their position of wanting to kill criminals.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 04:00 PM
That's because the "save money" argument is just a rationalization people use to support their position of wanting to kill criminals.

:wave:

GreatBronco16
04-24-2012, 06:50 PM
All I have to say is a big tall tree, and a short piece of rope. Problem solved and cheap as hell.:)

misturanderson
04-24-2012, 08:14 PM
All I have to say is a big tall tree, and a short piece of rope. Problem solved and cheap as hell.:)

Do you people advocating a change in the actual means used to carry out a death sentence really think the lethal injection is even 1/100% of the added cost of the death sentence?

How does advocating a change to death by firing squad or hanging have any part in this conversation?

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 08:33 PM
Do you people advocating a change in the actual means used to carry out a death sentence really think the lethal injection is even 1/100% of the added cost of the death sentence?

How does advocating a change to death by firing squad or hanging have any part in this conversation?

Maybe it's a metaphor for the whole process?

GreatBronco16
04-24-2012, 08:35 PM
Do you people advocating a change in the actual means used to carry out a death sentence really think the lethal injection is even 1/100% of the added cost of the death sentence?

How does advocating a change to death by firing squad or hanging have any part in this conversation?

Once again.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4070/4671697030_9a80f425aa_z.jpg

GreatBronco16
04-24-2012, 08:35 PM
Maybe it's a metaphor for the whole process?

Well someone gets it.

bowtown
04-24-2012, 08:44 PM
Maybe it's a metaphor for the whole process?

Totally barbaric and unnecessary with notes of racism? Agreed.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 09:01 PM
Totally barbaric and unnecessary with notes of racism? Agreed.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say people were hung before blacks. Nice try, though.

No, not really. I just needed to find a way to end the post.

GreatBronco16
04-24-2012, 09:05 PM
Totally barbaric and unnecessary with notes of racism? Agreed.

Hilarious!

Yeah, cause that is exactly where I was getting at. Stupid loon.

bowtown
04-24-2012, 09:27 PM
Hilarious!

Yeah, cause that is exactly where I was getting at. Stupid loon.

Hilarious!

Yeah, cause that is exactly what I was getting at. Stupid loon.

Mogulseeker
04-24-2012, 10:19 PM
The death penalty isn't really a liberal/conservative issue. It's fairly divided on both sides.

broncocalijohn
04-25-2012, 01:29 AM
While I am not a Democrat, only liberal on matters that governemtn should not worry about, I support pro-choice as well as the death penalty.

Maybe I'm pro-death...

Or go with I'm Anti Living. Wear that one proudly with a shirt.

McDman
04-25-2012, 06:50 AM
Or go with I'm Anti Living. Wear that one proudly with a shirt.

I could make t shirts. Want one?

lolcopter
04-25-2012, 07:50 AM
.

change how the sentence is carried out and immediately carry out the sentence and crime rates would really drop.

bull****

The state can barely ****ing deliver mail on time, they hardly deserve the role of executioner

houghtam
04-25-2012, 09:00 AM
bull****

The state can barely ****ing deliver mail on time, they hardly deserve the role of executioner

LOL so true. Side note,

One of my other brothers works for the post awful; his stories are hilarious. He's told stories about how he, based out of a Michigan delivery hub, came across a letter addressed to someone in Alaska...from someone in Alaska. The person that eventually received the letter got a nice big "Merry Xmas from Michigan!" message on the back of the envelope. I'm sure they were like :kiddingme

Butterscotch Stallion
04-25-2012, 12:08 PM
"Gotta go, gotta go."

Mogulseeker
04-30-2012, 10:24 PM
Relevant:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20513736/dna-evidence-clears-colorado-man-who-has-served

El Jué
04-30-2012, 10:35 PM
Relevant:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20513736/dna-evidence-clears-colorado-man-who-has-served

And we could have kept this guy in prison for the rest of his life if it wasn't for those pesky kids and their DNA evidence.

Yeah. This is the reason you don't let something as unthinking as a legal system put people to death, you freaking barbarians.

broncocalijohn
04-30-2012, 10:52 PM
And we could have kept this guy in prison for the rest of his life if it wasn't for those pesky kids and their DNA evidence.

Yeah. This is the reason you don't let something as unthinking as a legal system put people to death, you freaking barbarians.

Then what happens when we find out that the killer did indeed do the crime when DNA matches. Is it ok then? I dont mind having it both ways. Death penalty should be a no doubter in my mind.

El Jué
04-30-2012, 11:05 PM
Then what happens when we find out that the killer did indeed do the crime when DNA matches. Is it ok then? I dont mind having it both ways. Death penalty should be a no doubter in my mind.

If you're certain that evidence can't be corrupted or faked, and if you know with all your heart that eyewitnesses are always truthful and inerrant, and if it makes you guys feel safer, have at it.

Just don't put me on the jury, because if I'm in the box, the guy's not going to have a shot at being put to death.