PDA

View Full Version : Floodgates About To Open? RIP Ray Easterling.


Smiling Assassin27
04-23-2012, 02:38 PM
Man, what a sad story. I think a lot of these guys are in the same boat with regard to these brain-related injuries. As much as I hate to think it, we may be seeing the start of something tragic in terms of these guys not being able to take any more. RIP, Ray.

Former football star Ray Easterling has become the latest sportsman to kill himself after suffering from depression believed to have been linked to head injuries during his career.
The 62-year-old, who police say shot himself at his home in Richmond, Virginia, played for the Atlanta Falcons during the 1970s and later sued the NFL over its handling of concussions.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133869/Ray-Easterling-dead-NFL-star-kills-lifetime-depression-brought-concussion.html

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 02:47 PM
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why the NFL is softening up.

I, for one, welcome a lot of the rule changes.

Garcia Bronco
04-23-2012, 02:53 PM
I don't care. I mean it's sad that he's gone, but these guys played football knowing the risks. It's tough, but they decided to do this. No one put a gun to their head. Except in this case, but the guy did it to himself.

Smiling Assassin27
04-23-2012, 02:57 PM
Dominic Raiola, the OL for the Lions, says that players know the risks going in and says he's fully prepared for memory loss in later years. I don't think the loss of memory is what's driving guys like Easterling and Duerson to end it all, it's the physical pain, headaches, etc. They battle to get on the field in spite of pain and are totally focused/motivated by that, but like Trevor Pryce said, when that goes away, you're left with what you're left with--and in some of these guys' case, it's just pain and suffering. I don't know if the new league rules will have any substantial impact on what we're seeing but I do with some of these old timers we grew up watching had better.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 03:01 PM
I don't care. I mean it's sad that he's gone, but these guys played football knowing the risks. It's tough, but they decided to do this. No one put a gun to their head. Except in this case, but the guy did it to himself.

You really believe that the players knew in the 70's that playing professional football could lead to depression, insomnia, and dementia?

Dr. Broncenstein
04-23-2012, 03:05 PM
I don't care. I mean it's sad that he's gone, but these guys played football knowing the risks. It's tough, but they decided to do this. No one put a gun to their head. Except in this case, but the guy did it to himself.

"Lol" -- the American legal system

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 03:30 PM
You really believe that the players knew in the 70's that playing professional football could lead to depression, insomnia, and dementia?

no but it was known brain injuries could occur, life long injuries could occur. they may not have known which injuries would strike later in life, but they knew that football was a dangerous sport and injuries happen that could affect them the rest of their lives.

i am sorry for these guys, but asking the league to pay for them years after they stepped off the field is insane.

Gort
04-23-2012, 03:30 PM
somebody should look up the suicide rate in the general population and the suicide rate among former NFL players. i bet the rate among players is lower.

not to minimize the anguish this guy went through, but suicide is always the wrong decision and lots of people who never played in the NFL reach a point where the feel (wrongly) that their only escape is suicide. i worry, as a rational person, if each suicide by an ex-NFL player is going to be magnified by the media to create a narrative that's false.

if the rate is higher among ex-NFL players, i'll retract my statement.

i knew a couple of people who killed themselves when i was in high school. one was a former teammate. it's always the worst option IMHO. if only they would reach out to someone before the go through with it, most could be dissuaded.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 03:35 PM
no but it was known brain injuries could occur, life long injuries could occur. they may not have known which injuries would strike later in life, but they knew that football was a dangerous sport and injuries happen that could affect them the rest of their lives.

i am sorry for these guys, but asking the league to pay for them years after they stepped off the field is insane.

I agree that they assume a risk stepping on to the field. They could get anything from a bruise to die on the field. However, when you play in the league for ten years, and you come out of it fairly healthy outside of a few concussions, and don't notice the symptoms of anything serious until years later, I think there is an issue there...but again, this is a little off point.

The suit isn't just "give us money because we got injured", it's "the league was at the very least negligent and at the very worst covered up knowledge that it had regarding the long-term effects of head injuries." Those are two huge differences right there. And I think it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash in this case. If the players can prove that the league had that knowledge and withheld it, there's going to be serious serious **** hitting the proverbial fan.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 03:39 PM
somebody should look up the suicide rate in the general population and the suicide rate among former NFL players. i bet the rate among players is lower.

not to minimize the anguish this guy went through, but suicide is always the wrong decision and lots of people who never played in the NFL reach a point where the feel (wrongly) that their only escape is suicide. i worry, as a rational person, if each suicide by an ex-NFL player is going to be magnified by the media to create a narrative that's false.

if the rate is higher among ex-NFL players, i'll retract my statement.

i knew a couple of people who killed themselves when i was in high school. one was a former teammate. it's always the worst option IMHO. if only they would reach out to someone before the go through with it, most could be dissuaded.

Yeah but I think when you add dementia into the case, it's kind of different. It may be the worst option for a completely sane person, but to someone with a mental illness, it's apples and oranges. Personally I think you have to be mentally ill to commit suicide.

I had two people I know commit suicide in high school as well, one of whom I would consider a friend...it's awful for family and friends to go through, but the one thing that I always tell myself is that you never know what that person was thinking when they did the deed.

Smiling Assassin27
04-23-2012, 03:42 PM
somebody should look up the suicide rate in the general population and the suicide rate among former NFL players. i bet the rate among players is lower.

not to minimize the anguish this guy went through, but suicide is always the wrong decision and lots of people who never played in the NFL reach a point where the feel (wrongly) that their only escape is suicide. i worry, as a rational person, if each suicide by an ex-NFL player is going to be magnified by the media to create a narrative that's false.

if the rate is higher among ex-NFL players, i'll retract my statement.

i knew a couple of people who killed themselves when i was in high school. one was a former teammate. it's always the worst option IMHO. if only they would reach out to someone before the go through with it, most could be dissuaded.

I'm not a doctor but it seems like these types of injuries and incidents would have some type of stagger/lull and then start manifesting themselves in later years. So even if the suicide rate has been lower, is it possible it's about to spike? Whether the league's liable, I can't really say but here's hoping either medical advancements and/or rule changes make some difference.

dsmoot
04-23-2012, 04:15 PM
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why the NFL is softening up.

I, for one, welcome a lot of the rule changes.

No one seemed to have long term effects from the days of leather helmets and no face masks. Hmmmm.

Mogulseeker
04-23-2012, 04:23 PM
No one seemed to have long term effects from the days of leather helmets and no face masks. Hmmmm.

That was also in the days before professional trainers and nutrition programs specifically catered for short burst power... when most QBs were under 200lbs and 6'2" 260 was huge for a defensive tackle.

Requiem
04-23-2012, 04:28 PM
RIP, Ray.

Gort
04-23-2012, 04:39 PM
That was also in the days before professional trainers and nutrition programs specifically catered for short burst power... when most QBs were under 200lbs and 6'2" 260 was huge for a defensive tackle.

most of those players from the 1930's and 1940's also didn't live nearly as long as today's players do. they died in their 50's and 60's from lung cancer (smoking), liver disease (drinking), or heart failure (delicious bacon) and so the statistics for those coming down with Alzheimer's in their 70's or 80's aren't really valid. i actually think that the stats for later life Alzheimer's probably wouldn't be different between NFL players and the general population as well. what we are seeing now is a lot of media commotion being ginned up by trial lawyers and former players who are looking at what they think is a huge payday in court. it's not like the NFL wanted players to get hurt. there have always been shoulder pads and helmets and such. as technology improves so does the protective gear. i think the whole argument that the league was somehow deliberately silent about the dangers of playing defies common sense. but in a court, with 12 dumb jurors, common sense does not always rule the day.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 04:47 PM
most of those players from the 1930's and 1940's also didn't live nearly as long as today's players do. they died in their 50's and 60's from lung cancer (smoking), liver disease (drinking), or heart failure (delicious bacon) and so the statistics for those coming down with Alzheimer's in their 70's or 80's aren't really valid. i actually think that the stats for later life Alzheimer's probably wouldn't be different between NFL players and the general population as well. what we are seeing now is a lot of media commotion being ginned up by trial lawyers and former players who are looking at what they think is a huge payday in court. it's not like the NFL wanted players to get hurt. there have always been shoulder pads and helmets and such. as technology improves so does the protective gear. i think the whole argument that the league was somehow deliberately silent about the dangers of playing defies common sense. but in a court, with 12 dumb jurors, common sense does not always rule the day.

It will be verrrrry interesting to see what kind of evidence the players have to support this claim.

BroncoMan4ever
04-23-2012, 06:44 PM
I agree that they assume a risk stepping on to the field. They could get anything from a bruise to die on the field. However, when you play in the league for ten years, and you come out of it fairly healthy outside of a few concussions, and don't notice the symptoms of anything serious until years later, I think there is an issue there...but again, this is a little off point.
The suit isn't just "give us money because we got injured", it's "the league was at the very least negligent and at the very worst covered up knowledge that it had regarding the long-term effects of head injuries." Those are two huge differences right there. And I think it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash in this case. If the players can prove that the league had that knowledge and withheld it, there's going to be serious serious **** hitting the proverbial fan.

what person isn't feeling the effects of prior life experiences later in life, regardless of what they did? that comes with age. now granted the head injuries of players from the NFL past are now unleashing a wave of problems for these guys later in life; but the idea that the NFL covered anything up is crazy. when these guys played no one knew about the affects of head injuries on these guys. hell it wasn't until the last decade that the league really began to look for ways to better protect the players.

i think the lawsuits are just plain frivolous and a bunch of former players see the salaries of today's players and they want a slice of the pie.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 07:18 PM
the idea that the NFL covered anything up is crazy. (really? have you seen the evidence? i haven't, so i'm willing to withhold judgment on the validity of the players claims until, you know, the legal process takes place) hell it wasn't until the last decade that the league really began to look for ways to better protect the players. (well if that's the case, then i would think the players would definitely have a case. "we knew about the concussions, but only really decided to do anything about it recently" probably won't hold up well in court)

i think the lawsuits are just plain frivolous and a bunch of former players see the salaries of today's players and they want a slice of the pie. (again, see my first response. you're free to feel that way, but i'm of the opinion that where there's smoke there's fire...i just don't know how you'd prove something like that. as i said, it will be interesting to see what evidence the can bring to the table. i'll be following this very closely)

Responses in bold and parentheses.

broncosteven
04-23-2012, 08:19 PM
I'm not a doctor but it seems like these types of injuries and incidents would have some type of stagger/lull and then start manifesting themselves in later years. So even if the suicide rate has been lower, is it possible it's about to spike? Whether the league's liable, I can't really say but here's hoping either medical advancements and/or rule changes make some difference.

I am no Dr but have seen a ton over the last 4 years.

I think they consider the trauma football players experience as post-traumatic.

As the symptoms grow over time they experience chronic pain which causes severe depression. A lot of these guys are too proud to seek out medical/mental help and end up thinking that the best thing to eleviate the pain is to check out.

There is no cure for concussions but they can treat the depression and pain. Ideally you want to prevent the pain/trauma in the 1st place but the NFL needs to get out in front of this issue and help the older players with long term healthcare, information and support.

Crushaholic
04-23-2012, 10:34 PM
somebody should look up the suicide rate in the general population and the suicide rate among former NFL players. i bet the rate among players is lower.

not to minimize the anguish this guy went through, but suicide is always the wrong decision and lots of people who never played in the NFL reach a point where the feel (wrongly) that their only escape is suicide. i worry, as a rational person, if each suicide by an ex-NFL player is going to be magnified by the media to create a narrative that's false.

if the rate is higher among ex-NFL players, i'll retract my statement.

i knew a couple of people who killed themselves when i was in high school. one was a former teammate. it's always the worst option IMHO. if only they would reach out to someone before the go through with it, most could be dissuaded.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/bears/3927848-419/goodell-says-duersons-death-sad.html

The suicide rate among ex-NFL players is six times the national average, according to GamesOver.org, a website dedicated to helping former players adjust to retirement.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 11:24 PM
I wonder how, if at all, Broncos fans' opinions are affected when they see some of the names on the list of those who filed suit...

Melvin Bratton
Byron Chamberlain
Lional Dalton
Robert Delpino
Shane Dronett (estate)
George Goeddeke (real nice guy, went to my church, saw me wearing a Broncos hat at a school function and came up and introduced himself)
Willie Green
Howard Griffith
Mike Horan
Ashley Lelie
Tim McKyer
Maa Tanuvasa

Hotwheelz
04-24-2012, 03:08 AM
I wonder how, if at all, Broncos fans' opinions are affected when they see some of the names on the list of those who filed suit...

Melvin Bratton
Byron Chamberlain
Lional Dalton
Robert Delpino
Shane Dronett (estate)
George Goeddeke (real nice guy, went to my church, saw me wearing a Broncos hat at a school function and came up and introduced himself)
Willie Green
Howard Griffith
Mike Horan
Ashley Lelie
Tim McKyer
Maa Tanuvasa

Look, the fact is that this country has decided to put this sport on a very tall pedestal. The general public (as evidenced by this thread) has turned these human beings into gods and forgotten that these are people, not puppets there for entertainment. If the players claims are legitimate then NFL needs to be held accountable.

I love football, but at the end of the day, it's just a game.

Garcia Bronco
04-24-2012, 05:14 AM
You really believe that the players knew in the 70's that playing professional football could lead to depression, insomnia, and dementia?

Yes. Maybe not in those specific terms, but they knew what they were doing.

Garcia Bronco
04-24-2012, 05:19 AM
I wonder how, if at all, Broncos fans' opinions are affected when they see some of the names on the list of those who filed suit...

Melvin Bratton
Byron Chamberlain
Lional Dalton
Robert Delpino
Shane Dronett (estate)
George Goeddeke (real nice guy, went to my church, saw me wearing a Broncos hat at a school function and came up and introduced himself)
Willie Green
Howard Griffith
Mike Horan
Ashley Lelie
Tim McKyer
Maa Tanuvasa

Ashlie Leliey claiming he was a football player is a joke. And one guy's estate is suing...that should tell you all that you need to know.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 05:22 AM
From what I've seen, it kinda sounds like they're recruiting anyone and everyone to pile in the suits.

You're really going to tell me Lelie is in the same situation as those other guys? Even if coverup was happening for years, it's long been known that getting hit in the head could cause problems. If they need to add Lelie (and those like him) to substantiate their claims, I think it makes their argument weaker.

v2micca
04-24-2012, 05:33 AM
I don't care. I mean it's sad that he's gone, but these guys played football knowing the risks. It's tough, but they decided to do this. No one put a gun to their head. Except in this case, but the guy did it to himself.

Actually, that is what a lot of these lawsuits are about. The players are claiming that both the short-term and long-term risks were misrepresented to them during their playing days. There are stories of medical personnel acting against medical interests of the players on the orders of the owners.

Largely, I agree with you. Football is a violent sport and those who play this sport for a living need to accept those risks. But we are talking about an era in which a player with multiple concussions in single game was being told to rub some dirt on it and get back on the field. If owners were as aware of the long-term affects of these actions as the NFLPA would have us believe, then they deserve to be taken to the cleaners.

alkemical
04-24-2012, 05:45 AM
Maybe we can make some ribbon to put somewhere to make people feel better about it.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-24-2012, 06:06 AM
You could make every player sign a waiver that explicitly states football will lead to chronic brain injury and suicide... and there would still be lawsuits. The only thing that surprises me to this point is that every helmet, gun, and ammunition manufacturer hasn't been sued over this case along with the NFL. There is no such thing as common sense, fairness, or personal responsibility in litigation. It is always the fault of someone else, as long as that someone has money.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 07:49 AM
Actually, that is what a lot of these lawsuits are about. The players are claiming that both the short-term and long-term risks were misrepresented to them during their playing days. There are stories of medical personnel acting against medical interests of the players on the orders of the owners.

Largely, I agree with you. Football is a violent sport and those who play this sport for a living need to accept those risks. But we are talking about an era in which a player with multiple concussions in single game was being told to rub some dirt on it and get back on the field. If owners were as aware of the long-term affects of these actions as the NFLPA would have us believe, then they deserve to be taken to the cleaners.

Even today, players pretend not to have a concussion so they can keep playing. I think it's quite dishonest to imply that players would not have played through concussions had they known the effects. Maybe a few would've put the long term results before the short term gratification but I think it'd be quite the minority. I just have no sympathy here because I feel like it's absolutely just a money grab.

Gort
04-24-2012, 08:33 AM
Look, the fact is that this country has decided to put this sport on a very tall pedestal. The general public (as evidenced by this thread) has turned these human beings into gods and forgotten that these are people, not puppets there for entertainment. If the players claims are legitimate then NFL needs to be held accountable.

I love football, but at the end of the day, it's just a game.

in bold. that's what i have a problem with. life is unfair. that's rule 1 everyone should learn as a kid. rule 2 is that we are all mortal. we are all going to die. lots of us are going to suffer with disease and discomfort and pain first. the NFL didn't knowingly withhold better safety equipment from their players. they didn't knowingly refuse to hire sideline trainers who knew about concussions. the NFL owners didn't pay their players to play football and then secretly hope they'd all get hurt. maybe the players themselves need to be held accountable. if i stick my hand in a campfire, whose fault is it that i got burned? me or the guy who started the fire? i'm not un-sympathetic to the plight of these retired players. i've posted info about this issue on this site dating back a couple of years. the NFLPA should be doing more in terms of funding care and treatment for these old timers. but i just don't see how anybody can say that the NFL (which is really everybody employed by the league plus the owners) should have known about something that even medical doctors didn't know much about back in those days and then expect the current NFL owners to pay punitive damages.

it's interesting that the ex-player suicide rate is 6x the rate for the general populace (if true), but more investigation is needed. is this rate higher because these guys lose their sense of self-worth when no longer able to play? what are similar demographic groups in the general populace facing a similar situation and what is their suicide rate? etc. more in depth research is required here for sure.

i'm just not sure what the endgame is here except a bunch of lawyers seeking 30% of the upfront settlement of a class action lawsuit, plus another 60% of what's left paid in legal fees to themselves. the players will still get screwed because the lawyers always game the system to end up with most of the money for themselves.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 10:07 AM
in bold. that's what i have a problem with. life is unfair. that's rule 1 everyone should learn as a kid. rule 2 is that we are all mortal. we are all going to die. lots of us are going to suffer with disease and discomfort and pain first. the NFL didn't knowingly withhold better safety equipment from their players. they didn't knowingly refuse to hire sideline trainers who knew about concussions. the NFL owners didn't pay their players to play football and then secretly hope they'd all get hurt. maybe the players themselves need to be held accountable. if i stick my hand in a campfire, whose fault is it that i got burned? me or the guy who started the fire? i'm not un-sympathetic to the plight of these retired players. i've posted info about this issue on this site dating back a couple of years. the NFLPA should be doing more in terms of funding care and treatment for these old timers. but i just don't see how anybody can say that the NFL (which is really everybody employed by the league plus the owners) should have known about something that even medical doctors didn't know much about back in those days and then expect the current NFL owners to pay punitive damages.

it's interesting that the ex-player suicide rate is 6x the rate for the general populace (if true), but more investigation is needed. is this rate higher because these guys lose their sense of self-worth when no longer able to play? what are similar demographic groups in the general populace facing a similar situation and what is their suicide rate? etc. more in depth research is required here for sure.

i'm just not sure what the endgame is here except a bunch of lawyers seeking 30% of the upfront settlement of a class action lawsuit, plus another 60% of what's left paid in legal fees to themselves. the players will still get screwed because the lawyers always game the system to end up with most of the money for themselves.

And this is exactly what will be argued in the trial.

You saying it didn't happen, however, is a bit premature, because you really have no clue.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see what kind of evidence the players will be able to come up with. I love how the court of public opinion has already decided the fate of this trial before any evidence has been brought forth. It's really revealing how little people know. Hell, there are several people commenting about it who don't even actually know what the plaintiffs' claim is.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 10:30 AM
And this is exactly what will be argued in the trial.

You saying it didn't happen, however, is a bit premature, because you really have no clue.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see what kind of evidence the players will be able to come up with. I love how the court of public opinion has already decided the fate of this trial before any evidence has been brought forth. It's really revealing how little people know. Hell, there are several people commenting about it who don't even actually know what the plaintiffs' claim is.

I know players from 50 years ago are joining forces with players from 5 years ago. I know players from 5 years ago are joining forces with players from 50 years ago. The number of similarities in their circumstances continues to go to zero as time passes. The only common thread they have at this point is that they played a rough game and they want money. Quite literally nothing else could even be remotely similar. Anything teams were hiding from the players 50 years ago was surely public knowledge for those who were playing 5 years ago.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 10:38 AM
I know players from 50 years ago are joining forces with players from 5 years ago. I know players from 5 years ago are joining forces with players from 50 years ago. The number of similarities in their circumstances continues to go to zero as time passes. The only common thread they have at this point is that they played a rough game and they want money. Quite literally nothing else could even be remotely similar. Anything teams were hiding from the players 50 years ago was surely public knowledge for those who were playing 5 years ago.

Also that they are claiming that the league knew long ago the long-term effects and withheld them. But please, don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudice.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Also that they are claiming that the league knew long ago the long-term effects and withheld them. But please, don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudice.

Held them from who? The guys 50 years ago? Well then why are guys from 5 years ago on the list? If they mean they knew 50 years ago about the risks yet it was a state secret until <5 years ago... well, I just can't buy that. Nobody's been holding a monopoly on brain damage info for a half a decade.

v2micca
04-24-2012, 10:43 AM
life is unfair. that's rule 1 everyone should learn as a kid.

Yes, life is unfair. But this simple fact is not meant as permission for every person in power to run roughshod over everyone beneath them in the pursuit of the all mighty dollar.

As others have noted. The Players association has made certain claims that the owners and the NFL have engaged in business practices that placed them in unnecessary risk. No one is arguing that there aren't risks inherent to the game of football. Just as there are risks inherent to signing up for the Armed Services. But, commanding officers are held accountable for placing their soldiers in unnecessary danger. Similarly, the NFL should be held responsible of the courts find that they took unnecessary risks with their players.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 11:06 AM
Held them from who? The guys 50 years ago? Well then why are guys from 5 years ago on the list? If they mean they knew 50 years ago about the risks yet it was a state secret until <5 years ago... well, I just can't buy that. Nobody's been holding a monopoly on brain damage info for a half a decade.

Great, but...you're not involved with the trial, are you?

You're more than welcome to make assumptions based on zero evidence. That's your prerogative. However, it's also the very definition of prejudice. If you're cool with that, well ok. I'm not.

Perhaps you feel that because of my stances on other issues that I'm automatically for the helpless players against the big bad corporation? Well I'm not...I'm simply saying they obviously think have enough evidence to at least take it to trial. No one here knows the facts about the case, yet they are labeling the players who are bringing the suit, many of whom have debilitating injuries, as greedy.

I just think that's a little unfair.

If it comes out that they have no evidence (and even people on the plaintiff's side are saying they have a huge uphill battle and it is likely the NFL will win), then yeah, I think you could say it was a money grab, especially for the more recent players.

However, the way a class-action lawsuit works is that you have to qualify to be part of the class. Obviously the lawyers (who know and understand the law as it applies to this trial) felt that the more recent players fit the parameters of the class.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 11:13 AM
Great, but...you're not involved with the trial, are you?

You're more than welcome to make assumptions based on zero evidence. That's your prerogative. However, it's also the very definition of prejudice. If you're cool with that, well ok. I'm not.

Perhaps you feel that because of my stances on other issues that I'm automatically for the helpless players against the big bad corporation? Well I'm not...I'm simply saying they obviously think have enough evidence to at least take it to trial. No one here knows the facts about the case, yet they are labeling the players who are bringing the suit, many of whom have debilitating injuries, as greedy.

I just think that's a little unfair.

If it comes out that they have no evidence (and even people on the plaintiff's side are saying they have a huge uphill battle and it is likely the NFL will win), then yeah, I think you could say it was a money grab, especially for the more recent players.

However, the way a class-action lawsuit works is that you have to qualify to be part of the class. Obviously the lawyers (who know and understand the law as it applies to this trial) felt that the more recent players fit the parameters of the class.

So are you under the impression the NFL has possibly held secrets from the public about head injuries for 50+ years? 'Cause if so... yeah, you're on your own here but enjoy the free space.

Gort
04-24-2012, 11:25 AM
So are you under the impression the NFL has possibly held secrets from the public about head injuries for 50+ years? 'Cause if so... yeah, you're on your own here but enjoy the free space.

if the NFL is involved, we're gonna need a bigger flowchart.

http://www.richardjames.co.uk/the-row/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/newSchedier.jpg

http://greatbloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/NWOflowchart.jpg

houghtam
04-24-2012, 11:34 AM
So are you under the impression the NFL has possibly held secrets from the public about head injuries for 50+ years? 'Cause if so... yeah, you're on your own here but enjoy the free space.

I'm under the impression that we'll find out in the trial when all the evidence comes out. I'm also under the impression that it's in poor taste to speak negatively about people, some of whom have died or have seriously debilitating conditions, claiming that they have no right to pursue the legal process.

Garcia Bronco
04-24-2012, 11:42 AM
Actually, that is what a lot of these lawsuits are about. The players are claiming that both the short-term and long-term risks were misrepresented to them during their playing days. There are stories of medical personnel acting against medical interests of the players on the orders of the owners.

Largely, I agree with you. Football is a violent sport and those who play this sport for a living need to accept those risks. But we are talking about an era in which a player with multiple concussions in single game was being told to rub some dirt on it and get back on the field. If owners were as aware of the long-term affects of these actions as the NFLPA would have us believe, then they deserve to be taken to the cleaners.

I believe they are telling a bold-face lie in efforts to extort money to survive longer when their time is up. Obviously, It's the human condition. Remember, most these guys went to a college....supposedly.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 11:44 AM
I'm under the impression that we'll find out in the trial when all the evidence comes out. I'm also under the impression that it's in poor taste to speak negatively about people, some of whom have died or have seriously debilitating conditions, claiming that they have no right to pursue the legal process.

Yeah, well, there's enough people chasing money through the court system that they've lost the benefit of the doubt at this point. The older players have been screaming for years now that they think they deserve more than they earned then because of what the NFL has become. Now that the effort seems to have died, we have this lawsuit popping up and everyone and their mother is jumping on board. It'd be one thing if those dead and debilitated you mention were the ones suing but, again, Ashley freakin' Lelie? He was a soft WR that played in the NFL slightly longer than I did a mere 5 years ago. So people who joined the NFL AFTER the concussion issues were already being raised are now suing because they didn't know? GTFO. I can't declare anything absolutely but I can definitely say I smell BS whether it turns out to be or not.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 11:47 AM
Yeah, well, there's enough people chasing money through the court system that they've lost the benefit of the doubt at this point. The older players have been screaming for years now that they think they deserve more than they earned then because of what the NFL has become. Now that the effort seems to have died, we have this lawsuit popping up and everyone and their mother is jumping on board. It'd be one thing if those dead and debilitated you mention were the ones suing but, again, Ashley freakin' Lelie? He was a soft WR that played in the NFL slightly longer than I did a mere 5 years ago. So people who joined the NFL AFTER the concussion issues were already being raised are now suing because they didn't know? GTFO. I can't declare anything absolutely but I can definitely say I smell BS whether it turns out to be or not.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/22/sports/la-sp-newswire-20111223

The players maintain the NFL knew as early as the 1920s of the potential for concussions to harm its players but only went public last year.

Let the legal process take its course.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 12:00 PM
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/22/sports/la-sp-newswire-20111223



Let the legal process take its course.

Last year? GTFO. This wasn't a recent revelation. I guess, though, if these guys can go their entire lives and barely learn to read, they could exist in a retarded bubble of sorts and never put in the effort to learn what they were doing to their bodies.

But, at that point, I pretty much have the same right to sue Mcdonalds as Lelie does to sue the NFL. McDs never told me explicitly that I might have a heart attack if I eat their food. Yeah, it was common knowledge, but it was also common knowledge that f'ing up your body playing football would lead to an f'ed up body.

Come on, man. You may be in favor of the players and that's great. More power to ya... but how far can they really claim ignorance on this case?

Gort
04-24-2012, 12:02 PM
Yeah, well, there's enough people chasing money through the court system that they've lost the benefit of the doubt at this point. The older players have been screaming for years now that they think they deserve more than they earned then because of what the NFL has become. Now that the effort seems to have died, we have this lawsuit popping up and everyone and their mother is jumping on board. It'd be one thing if those dead and debilitated you mention were the ones suing but, again, Ashley freakin' Lelie? He was a soft WR that played in the NFL slightly longer than I did a mere 5 years ago. So people who joined the NFL AFTER the concussion issues were already being raised are now suing because they didn't know? GTFO. I can't declare anything absolutely but I can definitely say I smell BS whether it turns out to be or not.

i'd like to sue somebody for the Kyle Orton era in Denver. anybody else want in on that class action?

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 12:14 PM
i'd like to sue somebody for the Kyle Orton era in Denver. anybody else want in on that class action?

Maybe Denver as a whole can sue Chicago for not explicitly stating that Orton may not turn out to be what we hoped for and can give better compensation.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 12:22 PM
Last year? GTFO. This wasn't a recent revelation. I guess, though, if these guys can go their entire lives and barely learn to read, they could exist in a retarded bubble of sorts and never put in the effort to learn what they were doing to their bodies.

But, at that point, I pretty much have the same right to sue Mcdonalds as Lelie does to sue the NFL. McDs never told me explicitly that I might have a heart attack if I eat their food. Yeah, it was common knowledge, but it was also common knowledge that f'ing up your body playing football would lead to an f'ed up body.

Come on, man. You may be in favor of the players and that's great. More power to ya... but how far can they really claim ignorance on this case?

And this is where you prove your unwillingness or inability to read. I'm not in favor of the players, for the third (?) time. I'm in favor of letting this all shake out in the courts, and in the meantime, not passing self-righteous judgement on former players who believe they have a case.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 04:50 PM
And this is where you prove your unwillingness or inability to read. I'm not in favor of the players, for the third (?) time. I'm in favor of letting this all shake out in the courts, and in the meantime, not passing self-righteous judgement on former players who believe they have a case.

Actions vs words, my friend. You're accepting a silly premise where even simply saying "let the courts deal with it" is probably more credibility than it deserves. You're most certainly playing the role of biased toward the players whether you support them or not.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 04:58 PM
Actions vs words, my friend. You're accepting a silly premise where even simply saying "let the courts deal with it" is probably more credibility than it deserves. You're most certainly playing the role of biased toward the players whether you support them or not.

I'm biased for the players because I'm willing to let the courts decide the outcome, because I realize that I don't have the legal knowledge or authority to pass judgement before any evidence has been brought to light? That's rich! Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

I suppose I'm biased towards criminals for the same reason, too.

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 05:27 PM
I'm biased for the players because I'm willing to let the courts decide the outcome, because I realize that I don't have the legal knowledge or authority to pass judgement before any evidence has been brought to light? That's rich! Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

I suppose I'm biased towards criminals for the same reason, too.

Is there anything here that makes you think this is something other than a money grab? Aside from your superior openmindedness, of course.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 05:34 PM
Is there anything here that makes you think this is something other than a money grab? Aside from your superior openmindedness, of course.

Does anything else other than wanting to see the evidence matter in the legal system?

That One Guy
04-24-2012, 05:44 PM
Does anything else other than wanting to see the evidence matter in the legal system?

Are we judges?

A person capable of independent thought can form an opinion. I'm gonna take this as an admission that you have no reason to believe it to be anything more than a money grab. Keep pretending like you don't have an opinion and you're the most open-minded, non-judgemental person on the planet. We all idolize you.

houghtam
04-24-2012, 06:47 PM
Are we judges?

A person capable of independent thought can form an opinion. I'm gonna take this as an admission that you have no reason to believe it to be anything more than a money grab. Keep pretending like you don't have an opinion and you're the most open-minded, non-judgemental person on the planet. We all idolize you.

You can take it however you want.

Just like I can take your opinion that the players are money-grubbing jerkwads as you have no respect for our legal system. Doesn't mean I'm correct.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-24-2012, 06:49 PM
Don't worry guys. The lawyers get paid regardless.

ol#7
04-25-2012, 02:55 AM
I don't know a single person retired from the Military that doesnt deal with pain, depression rates are high, and I will bet the suicide rates are higher than average as well.

Hell I live every day in pain from top to bottom and have battled depression myself. Didn't have that when I signed up. Not complaining, my medical is covered, got my modest retirement, and that was part of the deal for putting my physical well being on the line. Would have preferred to sign an NFL contract though. Seems like a better deal.

Just kind of sick of the lack of personal accountability in this country.