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pricejj
04-23-2012, 01:07 PM
Rank Name College Comment
1 Fletcher Cox Mississippi State 3-technique (3T) penetrator, most dynamic guy at position.
2 Michael Brockers LSU Scheme-indifferent 1T, 3T, or 5T. Young, inexperienced, and high potential.
3 Derek Wolfe Cincinnati High-effort and skilled 3T pass rusher in even front.
4 Dontari Poe Memphis Scheme-indifferent NT – size/speed guy with low production at UM.
5 Kendall Reyes UConn Excellent athlete, high effort. 4-3 3T who will be a long-time solid starter.
6 Devon Still Penn State 3T skills, average motor. I can take or leave him.
7 Jerel Worthy Michigan State Very similar to Still in skills and motor.
8 Billy Winn Boise State Less talented than the top seven, but productive 3T.
9 Brandon Thompson Clemson Best fit is as even-front NT. Good talent vs run.
10 Alameda Ta’amu California Huge odd-front NT, less of a fit in a 4-3.


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=6

My thoughts exactly, coming from the best Broncos site on the planet. Read it and weep.

Derek Wolfe at #25, is probably the best pick the Broncos could take.

Shananahan
04-23-2012, 01:10 PM
*weeps*

TonyR
04-23-2012, 01:15 PM
You beat me to it price. Lots of good draft commentary in this article.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-its-getting-drafty-in-here

pricejj
04-23-2012, 01:16 PM
*weeps*


Wolfe is the real deal. Patriots and Steelers are goo goo over him. Like I said, I wouldn't doubt the Patriots take him at #27 or #31.

C'mon EFX...grow some cajones. It's real tough to find impact UT's, and Wolfe has all the makings of something special.

BroncoBen
04-23-2012, 01:16 PM
The DT I was pimping was Devon Still from Penn State, I like his size and wing span.. but it seems the consensus is the guy can't play an entire game.. that he fades out as he tires.

Some draftniks say don't expect much production from him in his first season.

TonyR
04-23-2012, 01:16 PM
Those 10 guys are among the top 50 or 55 prospects, in my opinion. There are a couple more, like Mike Martin of Michigan and Jaye Howard of Florida, who I also really like. (Martin more for his effort, and Howard more for his talent.)

Among those 12 guys that I just mentioned, I only really consider Brockers, Poe, and Ta’amu to be very good fits in an odd front, and I think that Brockers and Poe fit an even front equally well. Guys like Wolfe, Still, and Worthy arguably have the size to two-gap, but I don’t think any of them have the functional strength for it, and all of them have pretty short arms for two-gapping, with all being around 33 inches. This is good for the Broncos, and other even-front teams.

TonyR
04-23-2012, 01:18 PM
The Broncos can beat the other teams in their division, particularly if they shore up their run defense at DT. The question they should be asking is, Can they beat the other top contenders in the AFC? Right now, I’d say probably not. They really need to get better in coverage in the middle of their defense to beat the Patriots. They need to get better against the run to beat the Texans, and they need to be more physical overall to beat the Ravens. They could also stand to find one or two more threatening offensive ballcarriers.

Generally, I’d rank their needs like this:

1. DT, both inside pass rush and run support

2. Inside coverage players

3. Threatening space players/return men

4. Developmental CB, OL, and LB depth

DBroncos4life
04-23-2012, 01:20 PM
Oh the Pats love him? I don't want him after hearing that.

Lestat
04-23-2012, 01:20 PM
sweet draft value. i need two DT's from this draft in the top 4 rounds.

Rabb
04-23-2012, 01:23 PM
Oh the drama in a few days when we don't take a DT early...cannot wait

pricejj
04-23-2012, 01:25 PM
The real deal...I've been saying it now for a couple weeks.

You could live with Reyes, but Wolfe is better, any way you slice it.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 01:26 PM
LOL at Wolfe being taken in the first.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 01:27 PM
Oh the drama in a few days when we don't take a DT early...cannot wait

There really aren't any other viable options other than Konz, when you get down to it. And I'm sure Manning is fine with Walton.

Always better to go with meat and potatoes.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-23-2012, 01:27 PM
I like Bartlet as the more entertaining writer at that blog, and I actually agree with Wolfe as the #3 DT prospect, but the rest of the list is a little off to me.

If we're ranking personal favorites, mine would go:

1. Fletcher Cox
2. Jerel Worthy
3. Derek Wolfe
4. Quinton Coples (as a 3)
5. Devon Still
6. Dontari Poe
7. Michael Brockers
8. Kendall Reyes
9. Brandon Thompson
10. Mike Martin

pricejj
04-23-2012, 01:30 PM
...

1. Worthy ain't got it. Not strong enough, and not quick enough. A hair above Marcus Thomas.

2. I truly believe, once you get Brockers out of the LSU environment, his game will pick up, and he will become a very good run-stuffing DT once he puts on about 20 lbs.

Bmore Manning
04-23-2012, 01:37 PM
Brockers, whom everyone seems to hate, is fantastic. He could play either DT spot, because he offers exceptional ability to push the pocket, penetrate, and stop the run. I just hope his poor combine and average pro day drop him down to 25..

DBroncos4life
04-23-2012, 01:39 PM
1. Worthy ain't got it. Not strong enough, and not quick enough. A hair above Marcus Thomas.

2. I truly believe, once you get Brockers out of the LSU environment, his game will pick up, and he will become a very good run-stuffing DT once he puts on about 20 lbs.

You should go delete that thread were you have Worthy going to the Steelers in the first round to play NT to boot.

Rabb
04-23-2012, 01:39 PM
Eh, I will be more pissed if we reach for need versus BPA to be honest.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 01:40 PM
You beat me to it price. Lots of good draft commentary in this article.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-its-getting-drafty-in-here

Interesting how that article doesn't mention Wolfe dropping 15 pounds between the combine and his pro day.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/derek-wolfe-95/

Will come off the ball upright and get stuck on blocks. Takes on blockers too narrow-based and lacks anchor strength to dig his heels in the dirt and hold ground vs. the double-team. Plays short-armed and hand use is raw — does not strike with violence or power. Curiously dropped 15 pounds from the Combine to his March 2 pro day, where he weighed 280 pounds. Matured as a senior, made his final season his best and had a solid showing at the Senior Bowl, as his stock has continued to climb. Still must prove that he can be more than a rotational nickel rusher in the pros, but clearly has upside to grow into a starter and might even warrant looks as a 3-4 defensive end.

Not a first rounder.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-23-2012, 01:42 PM
The DT I was pimping was Devon Still from Penn State, I like his size and wing span.. but it seems the consensus is the guy can't play an entire game.. that he fades out as he tires.

Some draftniks say don't expect much production from him in his first season.

Depends what you want from Still. I watched quite a few games on him (twice), and I'm convinced he's more of a hybrid fit as a DT. I don't like him as a pure 3 tech because he's too much of a leaner, and he's not stout enough to be a true nose. Reminds me a lot of Marcus Thomas when he came out. That said, his effort is pretty good and he can be plenty disruptive. I think as a 4 year senior that has improved every season, he's one of the DTs that is most likely to contribute from Day 1, though in a hefty rotation. I also think he'd be stellar as a 34 end.

If I was choosing between Still and Brockers for a penetrating, disruptive DT (i.e. What I believe we should be looking for), I'd take Still every time.

I'd also be fine taking him at #25 if the DTs I rated higher were gone. I view Worthy as an elite penetrating player on a different level, but I think Wolfe and Still are on the same tier and very similar players. I just like Wolfe a tad better due to technique, athleticism, and medical.

Really, I'm a happy camper if we take Worthy, Still, or Wolfe in round 1. I think all three can make a difference from Day 1 as disruptive penetrators.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 01:49 PM
Interesting how that article doesn't mention Wolfe dropping 15 pounds between the combine and his pro day.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/derek-wolfe-95/



Wolfe only ran positional drills at his Pro day. He absolutely dominated the Big East at 295 lbs.

DBroncos4life
04-23-2012, 01:51 PM
Wolfe only ran positional drills at his Pro day. He absolutely dominated the Big East at 295 lbs.

Who even plays in the big east anymore. Hilarious!

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-23-2012, 01:51 PM
Brockers, whom everyone seems to hate, is fantastic. He could play either DT spot, because he offers exceptional ability to push the pocket, penetrate, and stop the run. I just hope his poor combine and average pro day drop him down to 25..


Wait, what?

What is this based off of?

His one season of semi-productive college ball where he did stop the run, but rarely pushed the pocket or penetrated? Keep in mind, he was seldom doubled.

He's also now up to 325 lbs, his playing weight was roughly 305. And his response to the massive weight gain was "whoops, guess I'm 325 now". I don't even know what you get with this guy long term, he might be the next Gilbert Brown. I do know he's *just* a Nose Tackle though, and I know D-linemen that can't pass rush have drastically reduced draft value.

I feel like I don't "hate" Brockers, I find his potential as a plugger intriguing, but this is a major boom-or-bust pick. Even Dontari Poe has three years of solid tape to refer back to. I don't want the first DT we actually decide to take in roughly a decade to be a risky pick.

gyldenlove
04-23-2012, 01:52 PM
Reyes is nowhere near my top 10, he has busty mcbusterson written all over him.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 01:54 PM
Wolfe only ran positional drills at his Pro day. He absolutely dominated the Big East at 295 lbs.

Soooo...dropping 15 pounds in a few days =/= concern?

Not a first rounder.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-23-2012, 01:58 PM
Interesting how that article doesn't mention Wolfe dropping 15 pounds between the combine and his pro day.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/derek-wolfe-95/



Not a first rounder.

I think that weight loss rumor was bunk. Gil Brandt mis-typed up his report, the only one I'm aware of, and everyone ran off of that. His Pro Day was a week after the Combine, not sure how you drop 15 lbs in a week, but my love handles would like to find out.

I do agree it will be tough for Wolfe to get in the 1st round. It's a deep DT draft class, and while there are quite a few 34 teams at the back end (and the Pats are very interested in him "supposably"), I think he goes in the early-mid second to a 34 team as a DE, though a team in the middle that likes undersized DTs like Tennessee or Chicago makes sense too.

DBroncos4life
04-23-2012, 02:00 PM
Soooo...dropping 15 pounds in a few days =/= concern?

Not a first rounder.

Pats have two 2nd rounders dont they? I'm sure they like Wolfe there. Honestly if the Pats were really good at drafting they would use the picks instead of trading them.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 02:03 PM
Who even plays in the big east anymore. Hilarious!

Kendall Reyes

Shananahan
04-23-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm not going to lie, if they take a defensive tackle in the first round my brain will find a way to view it positively and become excited no matter who it is.

Mediator12
04-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Hilarious!

Wolfe is the real deal. Patriots and Steelers are goo goo over him. Like I said, I wouldn't doubt the Patriots take him at #27 or #31.

C'mon EFX...grow some cajones. It's real tough to find impact UT's, and Wolfe has all the makings of something special.

Patriots and steelers are interested in him as an Active 5 Tech and not a 3 Tech. However, he is also inflated due to the lack of supply of 3-4 DE's, as opposed to the fact he is a solid Pass rusher.

Wolfe has a lot of skill, but he is maxed out as player, had a great scheme to be productive as a DE/DT tweener, and is sloppy with his tech. What you see is what you get with him, and he is a pass rusher and penetrator who gets washed out of plays run at him.

I would cringe to pick him as a first rounder, even a low first rounder. Late second I would be much happier. Right now I see him as a rotational pass rushing 3 Tech and not an everydown DT.

DBroncos4life
04-23-2012, 02:07 PM
Kendall Reyes

I was talking about teams.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 02:08 PM
I think that weight loss rumor was bunk. Gil Brandt mis-typed up his report, the only one I'm aware of, and everyone ran off of that. His Pro Day was a week after the Combine, not sure how you drop 15 lbs in a week, but my love handles would like to find out.

I do agree it will be tough for Wolfe to get in the 1st round. It's a deep DT draft class, and while there are quite a few 34 teams at the back end (and the Pats are very interested in him "supposably"), I think he goes in the early-mid second to a 34 team as a DE, though a team in the middle that likes undersized DTs like Tennessee or Chicago makes sense too.

More or less I agree. PFW has him as a 4th rounder. Several other sites have him anywhere from mid-2nd to 4th. I think what's going to happen is he'll get taken in the middle of a run on D linemen sometime in the late second or early third.

Mediator12
04-23-2012, 02:12 PM
Reyes is nowhere near my top 10, he has busty mcbusterson written all over him.

Seriously? Kid came in as LB, played DE, then grew into a DT when his frame filled out. He was totally raw and still learning the nuances of DT and produced.

However, every time I see him play, I think of Trevor Pryce as a 3T who actually has a motor, is competitive, and is not worried about his other career. He is NOT going to be ready for the NFL right out of the gate, but he might just be the best 3T when this is all said and done.

I like him alot.

Requiem
04-23-2012, 02:20 PM
Another crappy article from IAOFM. At least Tony didn't post it. That is all he has been doing lately.

Ta'amu isn't a Golden Bear either. Has no idea what he is talking about.

TonyR
04-23-2012, 02:36 PM
Another crappy article from IAOFM. At least Tony didn't post it. That is all he has been doing lately.


I don't know why I even respond to such garbage, but........ Why the need to declare yourself the authority on such things and pick fights? And what is it that you do? Lately or otherwise? Show us something you've posted that's remotely on par with the quality of this article. That or just shut up and keep your ad hominems to yourself. If you're trying to be one of the "cool kids" with your unprovoked criticism you're failing miserably.

Requiem
04-23-2012, 02:55 PM
I don't know why I even respond to such garbage, but........ Why the need to declare yourself the authority on such things and pick fights? And what is it that you do? Lately or otherwise? Show us something you've posted that's remotely on par with the quality of this article. That or just shut up and keep your ad hominems to yourself. If you're trying to be one of the "cool kids" with your unprovoked criticism you're failing miserably.

Are you getting paid 10 cents per IOAFM article you post? Don't get your panties in a bunch. You can pull them off for Ted later.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 03:01 PM
And what is it that you do? Lately or otherwise? Show us something you've posted that's remotely on par with the quality of this article.

And what makes these guys special? They have a website? It's four guys (nobodies) who write about football. They used to write for MHR (woooooo.). BFD, little known fact...I used to write for a sports website. I guess that makes me a sportswriter and authority as well? Here are their backgrounds, taken from the site itself:

TJ Johnson - ???

Emmett Smith (no, no that one) - ???

Doug Lee - "Despite being a face painter, Doug is actually married and lives in Brooklyn with his wife."

Ted Bartlett (not to be confused with Jed Bartlett) - "He works as a Divisional Controller for a Fortune 100 company, and is a student in a part-time MBA program."

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/about

SonOfLe-loLang
04-23-2012, 03:10 PM
And what makes these guys special? They have a website? It's four guys (nobodies) who write about football. They used to write for MHR (woooooo.). BFD, little known fact...I used to write for a sports website. I guess that makes me a sportswriter and authority as well? Here are their backgrounds, taken from the site itself:

TJ Johnson - ???

Emmett Smith (no, no that one) - ???

Doug Lee -

Ted Bartlett (not to be confused with Jed Bartlett) -

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/about

Regardless if you agree with them or not, their articles are always thoughtful. No one is a sports "authority" because even the pros get it wrong constantly. The IAOFM guys generally state lucid reasons for the predicitions they make.

CEH
04-23-2012, 03:16 PM
I have Wolfe as a 3rd round grade DT with Mike Martin
Still , Reyes, Thompson .Ta'Amu (Washington) 2nd round grade
We'll see where he goes.

Requiem
04-23-2012, 03:16 PM
Regardless if you agree with them or not, their articles are always thoughtful. No one is a sports "authority" because even the pros get it wrong constantly. The IAOFM guys generally state lucid reasons for the predicitions they make.

Even the Tebow hate, just for hate's sake?

Requiem
04-23-2012, 03:18 PM
I have Wolfe as a 3rd round grade DT with Mike Martin
Still , Reyes, Thompson .Ta'Amu (Washington) 2nd round grade
We'll see where he goes.

I'll be sad if we miss out on Ta'amu -- he spoke recently and thinks the Rams will take him @ 33. However, rumors are they might take Cox @ 6. Either way, we won't know -- but I hope we don't miss out on some of the better prospects.

I just don't see guys like Winn, Wolfe, Martin and a few others listed above really making that much of an impact. I don't really like Still that much either.

I hope we can get Worthy, Reyes, Ta'amu or Thompson between 1 and 2. I'm assuming Brockers, Cox and Poe will go before we pick. I think Winn, Wolfe, Martin or Still means we missed out on the best and will be getting some average players.

JMHO. Just hope we have a good draft and whoever we pick ends up being a beast.

GO BRONCOS!

Mediator12
04-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Hey, why all the personal crap? Come on, this thread had a very football talk feel.

Requiem
04-23-2012, 03:21 PM
Hey, why all the personal crap? Come on, this thread had a very football talk feel.

I'm sorry Mediator. I'm just angry that the UDFA award list hasn't been put out yet. :kiss:

Natedogg
04-23-2012, 03:22 PM
I'd kill for analysis as good as at IAOFM (despite its flaws) to be on the Mane.

Used to be a lot more of it here, in my opinion. This site used to be the best on the web for pure Broncos football talk (SoCal, Med, Drek, Fontain, others are the posters here who are still doing it, but less often it feels like. Camp reports from here were/are awesome too.)

Now the analysis here has been eclipsed, and I go somewhere else for it. Still like the Mane for the community, but less and less for deep football insight.

Disparaging the writers at IAOFM by calling them "nobodies" is a pretty weak ad homonym attack. Bashing someone for posting a link to an article about the Broncos draft is a head scratcher too.

If you actually read their posts, I think they're pretty darn good, despite not being on television, or pft.com.

TL; DR: clicked this link to see intelligent takes from maners on an interesting draft post, found a bunch of name calling.

elsid13
04-23-2012, 03:29 PM
At the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised if all the DT are drafted later then folks think. I wouldn't be surprised if the first one doesn't come off the board until pick #15

SonOfLe-loLang
04-23-2012, 03:30 PM
Even the Tebow hate, just for hate's sake?

One of them consistently ragged on him, but another one of their writers did not. Plus, i dont think it was for "hates sake," he constantly said why he didnt like him as a QB, though i admit he got tiresome. Regardless, that doesn't make their thoughtful articles any less valid.

Requiem
04-23-2012, 03:31 PM
One of them consistently ragged on him, but another one of their writers did not. Plus, i dont think it was for "hates sake," he constantly said why he didnt like him as a QB, though i admit he got tiresome. Regardless, that doesn't make their thoughtful articles any less valid.

For sure and I don't hate the site at all, I was just busting Tony's balls. Maybe he was having a bad day. I'd drink beers with any of those goons or all of ya'll. Hipsters get PBR, so get me a PBR.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 03:32 PM
At the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised if all the DT are drafted later then folks think. I wouldn't be surprised if the first one doesn't come off the board until pick #15

I would be surprised if Cox falls that far. I have viewed him as a poor mans Marcel Dareus since the start of this year's draft process.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 03:38 PM
Disparaging the writers at IAOFM by calling them "nobodies" is a pretty weak ad homonym attack.

You're right, next time I want thorough football analysis I'll go ask my brother (Director of Purchasing for a Fortune 500 company) and Dandy the Clown, who does great face painting in the Lansing area. His resume's here: http://www.shortdwarf.com/resumepro.htm

Regardless if you agree with them or not, their articles are always thoughtful.

My two year old probably put a lot of thought into coloring in his Cars 2 coloring book, but it doesn't make it look any less like...a two year old coloring in a Cars 2 coloring book.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-23-2012, 03:40 PM
You're right, next time I want thorough football analysis I'll go ask my brother (Director of Purchasing for a Fortune 500 company) and Dandy the Clown, who does great face painting in the Lansing area. His resume's here: http://www.shortdwarf.com/resumepro.htm



My two year old probably put a lot of thought into coloring in his Cars 2 coloring book, but it doesn't make it look any less like...a two year old coloring in a Cars 2 coloring book.

I think you're full of a ****...or dont read a lot of their articles.

houghtam
04-23-2012, 03:42 PM
I think you're full of a ****...or dont read a lot of their articles.

Good to know.

elsid13
04-23-2012, 03:42 PM
I would be surprised if Cox falls that far. I have viewed him as a poor mans Marcel Dareus since the start of this year's draft process.

Not me. I don't see the complete player worthy of top 15 pick. I think he has talent but I wouldn't think he better then Dan Williams (#26 pick overall) of 2010 draft.

KCStud
04-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Cox is the best option now, but Brockers is the best long-term because he has so much upside and potential.

A 20 year old first year starter doing what he did in the best conference in college football should be noted. People say he doesn't have pass rush ability, but it's not like he won't learn. He's gonna be a 21 year old rookie and he's only going to get better.

He's the perfect 3-4 DE IMO. Plus he can be an asset on ST's. He is going to be a stud at the next level, even if it might take a year or two.

TonyR
04-23-2012, 04:16 PM
...I was just busting Tony's balls...

I actually believed you until I saw that you also neg repped me. Your hate for IAOFM would be more legit if you actually ever posted anything half as good, and if your criticisms were a little more specific and substantive. We're here to talk Broncos football and that article brought up a lot of discussion points. Nobody's forcing you to read it, right?

Requiem
04-23-2012, 04:24 PM
I actually believed you until I saw that you also neg repped me. Your hate for IAOFM would be more legit if you actually ever posted anything half as good, and if your criticisms were a little more specific and substantive. We're here to talk Broncos football and that article brought up a lot of discussion points. Nobody's forcing you to read it, right?

I don't have a hate for IAOFM. As I said, I was busting your balls. It was just an observation that two of the only things you have been doing lately are posting their articles and slamming Tebow. Now you are slamming me for not offering opinions or writing in-depth, which I do, when time allows.

I'm not here to start a dick measuring contest against other writers on the internet. Everyone involved in the Broncos Online Community are doing a great job of representing the team. That goes for other forums and websites I am not a part of as well.

When I want to spend time giving quality analysis on something, I'll write an article for it. I shoot the **** on the board with the boys and joke around. I'm highly sarcastic on here and have been joking a lot lately in lieu of family issues. If that offends you, oh well.

pricejj
04-23-2012, 04:26 PM
Not me. I don't see the complete player worthy of top 15 pick. I think he has talent but I wouldn't think he better then Dan Williams (#26 pick overall) of 2010 draft.

Lets take a look at Dan Williams:
6'2", 327 lbs., 5.19 forty, 7.88 3-cone, 27 bench reps, 32" vert., 33 1/2" arm length...

He had 70 tackles, 2.5 sacks as a rSenior...48 tackles, 1.5 sacks as a Junior.

Analysis:
1. He was a redshirt Senior, and should be dominant because he is older than everyone else.
2. He is short and heavy, with a relatively slow forty and 3-cone.
3. Good tackle production in college, almost no pass-rush ability.
4. He is not particularly strong (27 bench reps).
5. Projection: Backup NT in a 4-3.

Now, lets take a look at Fletcher Cox:
6"3 1/2", 298 lbs. 4.79 forty, 7.07 3-cone, 30 bench reps, 26" vert., 34 1/2" arm length...

He had 56 tackles, and 5 sacks as a true Junior, and 29 tackles, 2.5 sacks as a Junior.

Analysis:
1. As a true Junior, he played his last year in college as a 20 year old (very young).
2. He has great height and weight...started his career at 240 lbs. Athletic freak, with phenomenal forty and 3-cone for a 300 lb. man.
3. Good tackle production in college, showing solid (and improving) pass-rush ability.
4. Good strength (30 reps) for a guy with 34 1/2" arms...but not great
5. Projection: Starting UT in a 4-3...with athletic ability to be special if he continues to improve.


In conclusion, Dan Williams and Fletcher Cox are two completely different players, with two completely different skill sets. It's no mystery why Dan Williams hasn't done much in the NFL so far. Everyone get's a little stronger with age (to a point), but Williams has too far to go, to be a dominant force on the inside, and lacks the athleticism to be anything other than a run-stuffer.

g6matty
04-23-2012, 06:31 PM
devon still will be the best DT in the draft. dont care what any1 says.

Bacchus
04-23-2012, 07:02 PM
Rank Name College Comment
1 Fletcher Cox Mississippi State 3-technique (3T) penetrator, most dynamic guy at position.
2 Michael Brockers LSU Scheme-indifferent 1T, 3T, or 5T. Young, inexperienced, and high potential.
3 Derek Wolfe Cincinnati High-effort and skilled 3T pass rusher in even front.
4 Dontari Poe Memphis Scheme-indifferent NT – size/speed guy with low production at UM.
5 Kendall Reyes UConn Excellent athlete, high effort. 4-3 3T who will be a long-time solid starter.
6 Devon Still Penn State 3T skills, average motor. I can take or leave him.
7 Jerel Worthy Michigan State Very similar to Still in skills and motor.
8 Billy Winn Boise State Less talented than the top seven, but productive 3T.
9 Brandon Thompson Clemson Best fit is as even-front NT. Good talent vs run.
10 Alameda Ta’amu California Huge odd-front NT, less of a fit in a 4-3.


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=6

My thoughts exactly, coming from the best Broncos site on the planet. Read it and weep.

Derek Wolfe at #25, is probably the best pick the Broncos could take.

I keep seeing MOCKS where Brockers falls to #25.

broncocalijohn
04-23-2012, 07:12 PM
The DT I was pimping was Devon Still from Penn State, I like his size and wing span.. but it seems the consensus is the guy can't play an entire game.. that he fades out as he tires.

Some draftniks say don't expect much production from him in his first season.

Add the Mile High elements and he would be gassed in the 2nd quarter. I dont live in Colorado but not sure how long it would take to be used to it. Wolfe looks like he would be available at 25.

barryr
04-23-2012, 08:28 PM
Brockers could drop if the 3-4 teams drafting in the 12-24 range pass on him. I do think he would be better as a 3-4 DE, as I do with Wolfe.

I also have stated many times that I like Reyes over Still and Worthy.

But the reality remains if the Broncos stay at 25, a DT is probably not the best pick.

Bmore Manning
04-23-2012, 08:33 PM
Wait, what?

What is this based off of?

His one season of semi-productive college ball where he did stop the run, but rarely pushed the pocket or penetrated? Keep in mind, he was seldom doubled.

He's also now up to 325 lbs, his playing weight was roughly 305. And his response to the massive weight gain was "whoops, guess I'm 325 now". I don't even know what you get with this guy long term, he might be the next Gilbert Brown. I do know he's *just* a Nose Tackle though, and I know D-linemen that can't pass rush have drastically reduced draft value.

I feel like I don't "hate" Brockers, I find his potential as a plugger intriguing, but this is a major boom-or-bust pick. Even Dontari Poe has three years of solid tape to refer back to. I don't want the first DT we actually decide to take in roughly a decade to be a risky pick.

You need to watch his film, there's a reason he has been considered a top 10 prospect. He was always double teamed if not triple teamed at times. You clearly have watched zero tape on him.

Rother8
04-23-2012, 09:58 PM
Here's a tough one, say DT's do drop and the first one isn't gone til 15. Do you grab another position at 25 and wait or don't allow the window to close on the second and 3rd round possible DT rush and take Brockers/Worthy/Poe..

DENVERDUI55
04-24-2012, 03:34 AM
This message will self destruct in 20 min.

Mediator12
04-24-2012, 07:24 AM
I just did the research on DT's drafted in the last 7 years near the end of the first round. It is not pretty at all! Of the 13 drafted players at the end, or early second round taken only 3 of the players were able to come in a make a difference for a team. The scary part is it was a short term start and long term effect for all three. None of the other 10 DT's who were drafted "developed" into starters or playmakers for their teams eventually. This includes the last 2 years, where their development is not played out yet. One of those players, Jared Odrick looks like he could break out, but as a 3-4 DE for MIA, not a 4-3 UT that he was projected to be.

Of those DT's who did make an impact, 2 of the 3 were moved to 3-4 DE and NOT playing 4-3 UT or NT!! So, only one player in the last 7 drafts selected at the end of the first or early second became the DT playmaker the team thought they had drafted. That is a scary analysis for sure.

This leads me to believe, that DT is an extremely risky pick where DEN selects in this draft. The only thing that makes me feel much better, is that this particular draft has the most first round grades at DT in a decade. Some of those players who were drafted late in the first, had serious issues like being a talented underachiever (Still, Worthy) and that scares me with those guys more than guys like Reyes who showed solid career progression as he was a LB and DE before growing into productive DT. He is still raw, but he continued to grow as a player as opposed to being a hot and cold performer.

Personally, No one on this site has cried for a Real defensive Line more than me since 2004. However, with this analysis, I would rather find a playmaker at 25 and get a role player like Barry Cofield later in the draft. My problem is that DEN has NEVER drafted a DT worth a damn since Trevor Pryce 14 years ago. I do not like the track record of the organization to find that diamond in the rough.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 08:31 AM
I just did the research on DT's drafted in the last 7 years near the end of the first round. It is not pretty at all! Of the 13 drafted players at the end, or early second round taken only 3 of the players were able to come in a make a difference for a team. The scary part is it was a short term start and long term effect for all three. None of the other 10 DT's who were drafted "developed" into starters or playmakers for their teams eventually. This includes the last 2 years, where their development is not played out yet. One of those players, Jared Odrick looks like he could break out, but as a 3-4 DE for MIA, not a 4-3 UT that he was projected to be.

Of those DT's who did make an impact, 2 of the 3 were moved to 3-4 DE and NOT playing 4-3 UT or NT!! So, only one player in the last 7 drafts selected at the end of the first or early second became the DT playmaker the team thought they had drafted. That is a scary analysis for sure.

This leads me to believe, that DT is an extremely risky pick where DEN selects in this draft. The only thing that makes me feel much better, is that this particular draft has the most first round grades at DT in a decade. Some of those players who were drafted late in the first, had serious issues like being a talented underachiever (Still, Worthy) and that scares me with those guys more than guys like Reyes who showed solid career progression as he was a LB and DE before growing into productive DT. He is still raw, but he continued to grow as a player as opposed to being a hot and cold performer.

Personally, No one on this site has cried for a Real defensive Line more than me since 2004. However, with this analysis, I would rather find a playmaker at 25 and get a role player like Barry Cofield later in the draft. My problem is that DEN has NEVER drafted a DT worth a damn since Trevor Pryce 14 years ago. I do not like the track record of the organization to find that diamond in the rough.

I did similar research and came up with similar results. I think the way they have their players ranked (BPA in a position of need) will determine that they pick a DT at #25, because their higher ranked players will be off the board. I think Elway knows it, and judging by the presser...he isn't too excited about it.

TonyR
04-24-2012, 08:52 AM
I just did the research on DT's drafted in the last 7 years near the end of the first round. It is not pretty at all!...

I appreciate this but I don't know that you let this make your decision for you. Classic case of "past performance does guarantee future results." Looking at this type of analysis overcomplicates things. The last 7 years really don't have anything to do with this year. You evaluate the current crop of players and if a guy you have as worth the #25 pick is there at the position you take him. If the only DT's left when you pick are rated lower, and there are other guys on your board available, you take the other guys. In other words, you stick with your board and you don't reach.

Bacchus
04-24-2012, 08:57 AM
I appreciate this but I don't know that you let this make your decision for you. Classic case of "past performance does guarantee future results." Looking at this type of analysis overcomplicates things. The last 7 years really don't have anything to do with this year. You evaluate the current crop of players and if a guy you have as worth the #25 pick is there at the position you take him. If the only DT's left when you pick are rated lower, and there are other guys on your board available, you take the other guys. In other words, you stick with your board and you don't reach.

The last seven years of failures does demonstrate that drafting a DT in the late first round is very risky.

TonyR
04-24-2012, 09:08 AM
The last seven years of failures does demonstrate that drafting a DT in the late first round is very risky.

Agree. But again, you stick with your board. If you only have Cox/Poe/Brockers rated 25 or better and none of them are there when you pick you go a different position. The last 7 years aren't relevant once you have your evals done and your board set. It's all about the player. Where he's picked isn't really relevant. Whether Brockers is picked at 12 or 25 he's the same guy.

pricejj
04-24-2012, 09:13 AM
Agree. But again, you stick with your board. If you only have Cox/Poe/Brockers rated 25 or better and none of them are there when you pick you go a different position. The last 7 years aren't relevant once you have your evals done and your board set. It's all about the player. Where he's picked isn't really relevant. Whether Brockers is picked at 12 or 25 he's the same guy.

What other players (who will be available at #25) do you think they have valued higher than Still/Reyes/Worthy?

I think they have Kirkpatrick higher...maybe Hightower (but I doubt it)...that's it.

Prepare yourself for a crappy DT in round 1.

Mediator12
04-24-2012, 09:43 AM
I appreciate this but I don't know that you let this make your decision for you. Classic case of "past performance does guarantee future results." Looking at this type of analysis overcomplicates things. The last 7 years really don't have anything to do with this year. You evaluate the current crop of players and if a guy you have as worth the #25 pick is there at the position you take him. If the only DT's left when you pick are rated lower, and there are other guys on your board available, you take the other guys. In other words, you stick with your board and you don't reach.

Every year is unique, but trends are there for a reason. It does not overcomplicate things at all, it is simply a factor to consider as one does draft prep. If you are just as likely to get a DT starter in the fourth round as you are in the late first, that has to be considered or you run the risk of overdrafting for need.

The real difference is in the actual grades of the player and the talent level of the player specific to your scheme. This is where solid drafting occurs. However, realizing that using a high pick on a DT rarely produces results while holding your picks and getting a value DT is just as effective can result in better drafting success overall for your team. Missing on a late first round pick happens all the time, and it's usually a reach need pick after the true talent at a position is gone.

The difference this year is there should be talent at DT available into the third round. And, there are a few solid rotational NT's available later. If there is NOT an elite level pass rushing UT available at 25 (Cox being the only one of those in this draft), I hope DEN stays prudent to their board and takes the BPA at a position of need. I just do not want a reach DT pick on upside as those are the guys usually selected here and also the ones who fail the most in the NFL. The type of DT selected is the reason you are wary here, developmental "Upside" DT's who are hot and cold in college just do not seem to develop like teams believe they will. That is why you do that analysis. Not for the pure numbers, but the reasons why those numbers exist.

That makes Still and Worthy guys who I do not Want taken at 25. That is their profile and I would rather draft value later than upside at 25 with a DT. Upside DT's have NOT shown the ability to play UT, push the pocket in pass rush, and penetrate gaps in run defense and blow plays up when they get to the NFL.

It is alot more than numbers.

TonyR
04-24-2012, 09:57 AM
What other players (who will be available at #25) do you think they have valued higher than Still/Reyes/Worthy?

I'm not even going to pretend to know. But it's very possible they have a RB/WR/TE/OL player rated higher than those guys you mentioned.