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Bronco Rob
04-19-2012, 07:29 AM
Draft Grader: Denver Broncos


April 18th, 2012 | Author: Khaled Elsayed




Up next in our Draft Grader series are those Denver Broncos who, before John Elway rode to the rescue and Peyton Manning ousted Tim Tebow, were dealing with Mike Shanahan’s final draft class and the first (and only) two of Josh McDaniels.

Suffice to say some of these grades aren’t going to be pretty.

As usual, every pick gets a grade between +2.0 and -2.0 (in 0.5 increments) that depends upon:

• Where they were drafted
• Their performance
• Their contribution (how many snaps their team got out of them)
• Other factors such as unforeseen injuries and conditions that could not have been accounted for

Let’s take a look at how the Broncos drafted.


+1.0: The scouts nailed it!

Ryan Clady, T (12th overall pick in 2008): After not giving up a sack as a rookie, people jumped to the conclusion that Clady was the next great left tackle of the league. He wasn’t, but he has proved an above average one (and a much better pass protector, to boot) despite something of a down year in 2011 where he got beat far more than we’re accustomed to seeing. A better left tackle than Peyton Manning has been used to playing with.



+0.5: Never hurts to find a solid contributor

Spencer Larsen, LB/ FB (183rd overall pick in 2008): Something of a jack of many trades, Larsen is one of the league’s worst lead blockers, but has proved a valuable special teamer over the years. Has contributed more than you’d expect out of a sixth rounder.

Peyton Hillis, RB (227th overall pick in 2008): Blame the McDaniels regime for not getting the most out of Hillis. As a rookie, he was extremely productive when injuries forced the Broncos to rely on him, picking up a +9.6 grade in his 355 snaps. Unfortunately, the new regime wasn’t a fan and he played just 84 more snaps before being traded away. A waste of talent, though through his efforts as a rookie and getting something in return via trade, more than you normally get out of a seventh round pick.

Demaryius Thomas, WR (22nd overall pick in 2010): Thomas has had to overcome some injury problems and some poor QB play, but his talent has shone through at times and you expect him to be a big benefactor with Manning coming into town.

Tim Tebow, QB (25th overall pick in 2010): Say what you want about Tebow, but he played his part in the team making the playoffs. Very raw/poor as a passer, his athletic ability opened up a stagnant Broncos offense and created some very memorable NFL moments.



0.0: It could have been worse

Eddie Royal, WR (42nd overall pick in 2008): His breakout rookie year never really developed into a consistent career at the receiver spot, making Royal something of a disappointment as a receiver. Saves himself with some electric work as a returner.

Kory Lichtensteiger, G (108th overall pick in 2008): A perfect fit for the zone blocking scheme the Broncos ran, his usefulness went out of the window when the Broncos canned Shanahan.

Jack Williams, CB (119th overall pick in 2008): Never really worked out for Williams who was cut loose after 192 snaps with Denver. You wonder if he wouldn’t have been pushed so far down the McDaniels depth chart if not for one particularly crazy trade.

Ryan Torain, RB (139th overall pick in 2008): Injuries really limited what he could do with Denver, with new coaches not prepared to take a chance on him getting healthy. Has since shown a lot of talent but proven quite fragile.

Carlton Powell, DT (148th overall pick in 2008): Another one of the players whose face didn’t fit in with new management. Cut a year after being drafted.

Josh Barrett, S (220th overall pick in 2008): Looked out of his depth when he got on the field as a rookie, and while he stuck around, was eventually let go when injured.

Robert Ayers, DE (18th overall pick in 2009): The least worst pick from 2009, Ayers often looked miscast in McDaniels’ 3-4, but has turned into a solid defensive end in Denver. May never be an elite pass rusher, but holds the fort down on early downs while others handle that responsibility.

David Bruton, S (114th overall pick in 2009): Hasn’t developed into a starter, but has a role on the team in providing decent depth and contributing on special teams.

Kenny McKinley, WR (141st overall pick in 2009): Sadly, took his life after multiple injuries.

Tom Brandstater, QB (174th overall pick in 2009): Was buried on the depth chart after the 2010 draft and eventually released.

Eric Decker, WR (87th overall pick in 2010): Will get a chance to show what he can really do now that he has a more conventional quarterback behind center.

Perrish Cox, CB (137th overall pick in 2010): Off the field problems ended a promising Broncos career.

Eric Olsen, C (183rd overall pick in 2010): Waived after a year with the team.

Syd’Quan Thompson, S (225th overall pick in 2010): Looked like the Broncos could be onto something after a promising rookie year, but after missing all of 2011 with a torn Achilles tendon, could struggle making the roster under a coaching staff that isn’t invested in him.



-0.5: That pick was not put to good use

Knowshon Moreno, RB (12th overall pick in 2009): Mike Shanahan doesn’t draft running backs in the first round? “Well, forget that” says Mr. McDaniels who goes out and does so, making all of Denver wish that he’d followed in the footsteps of his predecessor. Moreno has been a disappointment, not getting on the field enough and rarely testing defenses. Broncos rushing attack got better when he wasn’t on the field.

Seth Olsen, G (132nd overall pick in 2009): Waived after a year with the team. Not what you’d expect out of a fourth round pick.

Blake Schlueter, C (225th overall pick in 2009): Cut before the start of his rookie season, he wasn’t even deemed worth a practice squad spot.

Jammie Kirlew, DE (232nd overall pick in 2010): Cut before the start of the 2010 season.



-1.0: What a waste!

Darcel McBath, S (48th overall pick in 2009): Viewed as a reach at the time, McBath went on to play just 293 snaps for the Broncos. Even with some good work on special teams, this was a colossal waste.

Richard Quinn, TE (64th overall pick in 2009): Eyebrows were raised when a purely blocking tight end was taken in the second round and understandably so. Quinn would go on to play even less than McBath, registering just 249 snaps in another case of bad overdrafting.

Zane Beadles, G (45th overall pick in 2010): Seemed to progress at guard as his rookie year went on, but was abysmal in his second year in such a way that you wonder if he could ever turn the corner. Our fourth-lowest ranked guard in 2011, he’s poor in pass protection and nearly as bad in the run game.

J.D. Walton, C (80th overall pick in 2010): Our fourth-lowest ranked center in the league as a rookie, stepped it up and earned the lowest grade of all his peers in 2011. A poor player who struggles massively in the run game.



-1.5: The scouts/ coaches failed, big time!

Alphonso Smith, CB (37th overall pick in 2009): The pick that in some ways defined McDaniels’ frivolous attitude when it came to drafting. He saw him as a first round talent, so traded away a future first. But when he didn’t enter the league playing like one of the league’s best, faith was quickly lost and he was then traded away for Dan Gronkowski, a former seventh-rounder. This was the perfect storm in terms of making a pick as bad as it can be, and the sad thing for Smith is, he had little to do with it. You draft a player that you think is a first-rounder, you don’t give up on him after a year.



-2.0: You just drafted the love child of Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf!

No Russell/ Leaf hybrids in this draft.



Summary

You almost have to ignore parts of the 2008 draft because of the wholesale changes that followed, but it should be noted that more players drafted in ’08 have gone onto have success than both 2009 and 2010 combined. That has a lot to do with one of the worst draft classes of all time in what Denver did in Josh McDaniels’ first year in charge. Adding a little bit more context, Denver had just traded away their franchise quarterback and, in the end, got a solid defensive end and … well, that was it. Blame the scouts or blame the coaches, but drafting that many players and failing so spectacularly on so many is utterly inexcusable.




http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/18/draft-grader-denver-broncos/

TonyR
04-19-2012, 07:32 AM
You really have to wonder whether or not Walton and Beadles appeared to digress because of the Tebow offense and maybe they'll look better with Manning. And if not wonder then hope...

socalorado
04-19-2012, 07:51 AM
I actually think Walton will be OK, but Beadles i am concerned about.
Hopefully these guys understand that if they want to become successful,
NFL players and win a ring, they will take a page from our new QB and work
their ass off to be the best. Cause even then, they will more than likely only
be slightly above average.

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 07:56 AM
You really have to wonder whether or not Walton and Beadles appeared to digress because of the Tebow offense and maybe they'll look better with Manning. And if not wonder then hope...

Like they went off on a tangent because of Tebow's religious beliefs?

Do yourself, and us, a favor. Stop pathetically trying to make Tebow the cause of every issue, and don't try to use any fancy words. You just end up looking like an idiot twice.

Rabb
04-19-2012, 08:01 AM
I really want them to kick Franklin inside...I think our interior could be nasty.

And I am not a Tebow hater, but I also agree I don't think we know how good or bad they are based on both him and Orton. One guy was always on a fire drill and the other was a sloth.

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 08:01 AM
I actually think Walton will be OK, but Beadles i am concerned about.
Hopefully these guys understand that if they want to become successful,
NFL players and win a ring, they will take a page from our new QB and work
their ass off to be the best. Cause even then, they will more than likely only
be slightly above average.

I think Beadles may be replaced this year. I can see Ryan Harris starting at RT and bumping Franklin inside. Or even just replacing Beadles with Harris. Either way is an upgrade if Harris can stay healthy. Big if though.

TheReverend
04-19-2012, 08:15 AM
I'm sorry, but this thread title is just ridiculous and way over the top.








































You can't die from gonorrhea.

Josh McDaniels should die of syphillis and rot in hell.

TonyR
04-19-2012, 08:18 AM
Like they went off on a tangent because of Tebow's religious beliefs?

Do yourself, and us, a favor. Stop pathetically trying to make Tebow the cause of every issue, and don't try to use any fancy words. You just end up looking like an idiot twice.

LOL Dude, take your ignorance, stupidity, and pathetic jilted lover attitude elsewhere. Seriously, just stop following me around and responding to my posts. This isn't about Tebow, it's about mediocre-at-best young players struggling to perform in the type of offense the Broncos ran under Tebow. This isn't some new concept. Even Ryan Clady struggled in it. Why do you have to derail threads with your Tebow fanboy love? You appear to be one of very few people who don't understand the challenges the Tebow offense created for the O-line. Get over it, and get over yourself you self important loser. And consider putting me on ignore so I don't have to expend so much energy batting you around like a ****ing pinata.

jhns
04-19-2012, 08:38 AM
LOL Dude, take your ignorance, stupidity, and pathetic jilted lover attitude elsewhere. Seriously, just stop following me around and responding to my posts. This isn't about Tebow, it's about mediocre-at-best young players struggling to perform in the type of offense the Broncos ran under Tebow. This isn't some new concept. Even Ryan Clady struggled in it. Why do you have to derail threads with your Tebow fanboy love? You appear to be one of very few people who don't understand the challenges the Tebow offense created for the O-line. Get over it, and get over yourself you self important loser. And consider putting me on ignore so I don't have to expend so much energy batting you around like a ****ing pinata.

You are an idiot. An option offense is great for an o line. They went from **** in pass and run blocking, to good at run blocking. You aren't making any sense...

Drek
04-19-2012, 08:54 AM
This has got to be one of the worst articles I've seen PFF put out, and that is really saying something.

A few quibbles:
Spencer Larsen is a +0.5 for being a poor FB and good special teamer. Robert Ayers is a +0.0 for being a solid starting DE. Who do you think most in the NFL view as more valuable?

Peyton Hillis is a +0.5 with a bunch of hate attached for being traded. Alphonso Smith is a -1.5 for similarly being traded. He's actually still with the team that traded for him, just had another pretty solid year for them too. This makes no sense.

Again, Spencer Larsen = bad fullback by their numbers but he's a +0.5. JD Walton and Zane Beadles are bad starting OL by their metrics too but they're -1.0 for some reason. Another mathematical failure.

Why are Blake Schluter and Jamie Kerlew negatives when Carlton Powell also never played and was drafted several rounds higher?

Knowshon Moreno is a -0.5 despite being a starter for two years and putting up over 100 all purpose yards both of those seasons. He isn't worth where he was picked at, but he isn't a complete waste either. If this guy was taken in the 3rd round he'd be a fan favorite and everyone would be pining for the day he can finally stay healthy.

I grade PFF a -2.0 because they're the J-Russ on DRANK having dirty butt sex with a drunk Ryan Leaf of football websites. That is just as valid as all the **** this article contains.

TheReverend
04-19-2012, 08:57 AM
^ Factor in draft positioning and it will make more sense.

Still not a particularly good write-up, but it will definitely make MORE sense.

Drek
04-19-2012, 08:57 AM
LOL Dude, take your ignorance, stupidity, and pathetic jilted lover attitude elsewhere. Seriously, just stop following me around and responding to my posts. This isn't about Tebow, it's about mediocre-at-best young players struggling to perform in the type of offense the Broncos ran under Tebow. This isn't some new concept. Even Ryan Clady struggled in it. Why do you have to derail threads with your Tebow fanboy love? You appear to be one of very few people who don't understand the challenges the Tebow offense created for the O-line. Get over it, and get over yourself you self important loser. And consider putting me on ignore so I don't have to expend so much energy batting you around like a ****ing pinata.

Clady strugged in '10 too bro, no Tebow at QB then. Or are you saying the thought of having to some day protect Tebow was so distracting to Clady that he couldn't do his job as well as he otherwise might have?

The previously unknown "Tebow on the bench, I'ma **** my pants" effect, as it were.

Drek
04-19-2012, 08:59 AM
^ Factor in draft positioning and it will make more sense.

Still not a particularly good write-up, but it will definitely make MORE sense.

Not really, I pointed out how they failed to correct for draft position consistently with the Carlton Powell at 0.0 v. Kerlew and Schluter at -0.5 comparisons.

Kerlew and Schluter were 7th round picks. Powell was a 4th round pick. None of them have played a game in the league yet to my knowledge. But Powell is neutral while the other two are negatives?

Its random opinion thrown into type like that suddenly validates it.

TonyR
04-19-2012, 09:00 AM
Clady strugged in '10 too bro...

Agree. Orton didn't do him any favors, either. And he was coming off a major injury. You have to agree that Manning making quicker and better reads and getting rid of the ball is going to immensely help the OL, and that protecting a QB like Tebow, in that type of offense, can be difficult. I don't know why/how anyone would disagree with this, it isn't a slight of Tebow. It's just the nature of the beast. No reason for people to be so sensitive and irrational about it.

TheReverend
04-19-2012, 09:01 AM
Not really, I pointed out how they failed to correct for draft position consistently with the Carlton Powell at 0.0 v. Kerlew and Schluter at -0.5 comparisons.

Kerlew and Schluter were 7th round picks. Powell was a 4th round pick. None of them have played a game in the league yet to my knowledge. But Powell is neutral while the other two are negatives?

No one gives a ****.

Just apply that to your Spencer Larsen vs Ayers, Walton and Beadles, Hillis vs Alphonso, and Knowshon on the bench rants.

TonyR
04-19-2012, 09:03 AM
An option offense is great for an o line. They went from **** in pass and run blocking, to good at run blocking.

Do you notice what got left out of your little equation?

Gort
04-19-2012, 09:04 AM
You really have to wonder whether or not Walton and Beadles appeared to digress because of the Tebow offense and maybe they'll look better with Manning. And if not wonder then hope...

so Tebow is to blame for Walton and Beadles inexperience?

http://cdn.wl.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Yao-Ming.jpg

let it go... Tebow is gone. all he did for us was:

1) not get arrested for DUI
2) not have any baby mama drama
3) be polite and courteous to everyone who wanted to interview him
4) salvage a season that was in a death spiral after 5 games
5) win a playoff game

jhns
04-19-2012, 09:05 AM
Do you notice what got left out of your little equation?

Do you notice that it isn't needed? Stay bad at pass ocking but get better at run blocking = the line got worse!

Tony the retard logic at its finest.

It is pretty common knowledge that an option offense is good for an o line. It makes their jobs easier. It is also common knowledge that pass blocking is not nearly as important when you are throwing it 10 times a game. You are just too stupid to understand the basics.

TonyR
04-19-2012, 09:13 AM
so Tebow is to blame for Walton and Beadles inexperience?

No, and I never said he was. I never said anything that was a slight of Tebow. Your boy Dedhed is misunderstanding and over reacting as usual, and now jhns and you are piling on in typical Tebow zombie mob mentality. Can't have a rational discussion with Tebow's name involved without you people losing your minds. I'm not criticizing Tebow! If you people can't post thoughtfully and rationally on such topics you should do everyone a favor and stay out of it.

Drek
04-19-2012, 09:16 AM
Agree. Orton didn't do him any favors, either. And he was coming off a major injury. You have to agree that Manning making quicker and better reads and getting rid of the ball is going to immensely help the OL, and that protecting a QB like Tebow, in that type of offense, can be difficult. I don't know why/how anyone would disagree with this, it isn't a slight of Tebow. It's just the nature of the beast. No reason for people to be so sensitive and irrational about it.

So every other QB in the league but Peyton Manning makes Clady look bad?

He blew his knee apart in the 2010 off-season. He has since spent basically zero days (well, this week I guess) rehabbing it in coordination with the team's staff. The last two years (since the injury) he's shown pretty poor lateral mobility after being cat quick his first two years. So do you really think it's the QB making Clady look bad or is it maybe Clady's tore up knee he's still not 100% back from that makes him look bad?

No one gives a ****.

Just apply that to your Spencer Larsen vs Ayers, Walton and Beadles, Hillis vs Alphonso, and Knowshon on the bench rants.
So the grading only applies in specific instances?

Better yet, lets go by his own wording of what each tier means.

"+0.5 Never hurts to find a solid contributor". This includes Demaryius Thomas and Tim Tebow. Why doesn't it include Robert Ayers (started 23 of the 27 games he's played the last two years, that included a switch from LB to DE)? If you're including DT why aren't you including Knowshon Moreno? Moreno missed most of last season to injury, just like DT missed most of his rookie year, both have been inconsistent producers who have had big games but have many more games of mediocrity. All first rounders selected within about 15 picks of one another.

He takes a jab at McDaniels over Jack Mother****ing Williams not working out. Where is he right now? Out of the league.

Yep, this **** isn't completely idiotic or anything. Makes total sense.

Pick Six
04-19-2012, 09:16 AM
You really have to wonder whether or not Walton and Beadles appeared to digress because of the Tebow offense and maybe they'll look better with Manning. And if not wonder then hope...

The offensive line had to hold their blocks longer, under Tebow. I am confident that they will be better. Manning has that quick release, so that will help...

jhns
04-19-2012, 09:16 AM
No, and I never said he was. I never said anything that was a slight of Tebow. Your boy Dedhed is misunderstanding and over reacting as usual, and now jhns and you are piling on in typical Tebow zombie mob mentality. Can't have a rational discussion with Tebow's name involved without you people losing your minds. I'm not criticizing Tebow! If you people can't post thoughtfully and rationally on such topics you should do everyone a favor and stay out of it.

I haven't even talked about Tebow. You are just proving that you are too stupid for message boards again.

Drek
04-19-2012, 09:17 AM
The offensive line had to hold their blocks longer, under Tebow. I am confident that they will be better. Manning has that quick release, so that will help...

The OL will be better because Clady will be healthier and the young guys (Beadles, Walton, and Franklin) will get a full off-season and pre-season of work with a very good OL coach.

TheReverend
04-19-2012, 09:19 AM
So the grading only applies in specific instances?

Better yet, lets go by his own wording of what each tier means.

"+0.5 Never hurts to find a solid contributor". This includes Demaryius Thomas and Tim Tebow. Why doesn't it include Robert Ayers (started 23 of the 27 games he's played the last two years, that included a switch from LB to DE)? If you're including DT why aren't you including Knowshon Moreno? Moreno missed most of last season to injury, just like DT missed most of his rookie year, both have been inconsistent producers who have had big games but have many more games of mediocrity. All first rounders selected within about 15 picks of one another.

He takes a jab at McDaniels over Jack Mother****ing Williams not working out. Where is he right now? Out of the league.

Yep, this **** isn't completely idiotic or anything. Makes total sense.

What part of this post do you not understand (clearly aside from every simple ****ing word)?

^ Factor in draft positioning and it will make more sense.

Still not a particularly good write-up, but it will definitely make MORE sense.

razorwire77
04-19-2012, 09:19 AM
I thoroughly believe that on draft day you could have taken 5-10 of the more draft knowledgeable Maners, given them one week of preparation to prepare a draftboard and they would have drafted better than McDaniels did.

Gort
04-19-2012, 09:21 AM
No, and I never said he was. I never said anything that was a slight of Tebow. Your boy Dedhed is misunderstanding and over reacting as usual, and now jhns and you are piling on in typical Tebow zombie mob mentality. Can't have a rational discussion with Tebow's name involved without you people losing your minds. I'm not criticizing Tebow! If you people can't post thoughtfully and rationally on such topics you should do everyone a favor and stay out of it.

what is "not thoughtful" and "not rational" about what i posted?

again, Walton and Beadles are young and inexperienced and that's why they are still having problems. it's got nothing to do with Tebow or with the so-called Tebow offense.

last year was only the 2nd year for each of them as a pro. they need more time before we'll know if they are going to become good players.

Gort
04-19-2012, 09:23 AM
The offensive line had to hold their blocks longer, under Tebow. I am confident that they will be better. Manning has that quick release, so that will help...

take a look at the NE playoff game. anything longer than 500 milliseconds would have helped. our OL was overmatched and outplayed. i still think something fishy was going on with McD and how NE prepared for that game, but the commissioner's office isn't willing to look at that so there's nothing we can do about it.

jhns
04-19-2012, 09:24 AM
The OL will be better because Clady will be healthier and the young guys (Beadles, Walton, and Franklin) will get a full off-season and pre-season of work with a very good OL coach.

This. They are young. They can improve.

My prediction? They struggle with the run game but look much better at pass blocking. Manning, and this system, will help them in pass blocking. Just like the option offense helped their run blocking. They need this help because they are inexperienced and not very good yet.

Wes Mantooth
04-19-2012, 09:25 AM
take a look at the NE playoff game. anything longer than 500 milliseconds would have helped. our OL was overmatched and outplayed. i still think something fishy was going on with McD and how NE prepared for that game, but the commissioner's office isn't willing to look at that so there's nothing we can do about it.

its called cheating.

TonyR
04-19-2012, 09:30 AM
So every other QB in the league but Peyton Manning makes Clady look bad?

...So do you really think it's the QB making Clady look bad or is it maybe Clady's tore up knee he's still not 100% back from that makes him look bad?


Are Orton and Tebow "every other QB in the league"? Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Orton is immobile and has no pocket presence; Tebow is extremely mobile but inexeperienced, lacking in pocket awareness, unable to make good reads or make them quickly, and holds on the ball too long. Neither of these scenarios do an O-line any favors. I shouldn't have to explain this to you, you know all this.

As for your question, I think it's probably a little bit of both.

Gort
04-19-2012, 09:36 AM
Are Orton and Tebow "every other QB in the league"? Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Orton is immobile and has no pocket presence; Tebow is extremely mobile but inexeperienced, lacking in pocket awareness, unable to make good reads or make them quickly, and holds on the ball too long. Neither of these scenarios do an O-line any favors. I shouldn't have to explain this to you, you know all this.

As for your question, I think it's probably a little bit of both.

i don't think your analysis is correct in this regard... teams started mush-rushing Tebow once they'd figured out it was dangerous to blitz him. they basically weren't really trying to penetrate into the backfield when Tebow was expected to pass. instead, they tried to tie up the linemen and clog the throwing lanes for short passes. how does that hurt our OL's pass blocking. if anything, this so-called Tebow offense made the OL look better as pass blockers once teams started doing that, although they still struggled all year in that regard. we will have pass blocking problems with the OL this year. Franklin in particular has to get much better at that.

Miss I.
04-19-2012, 10:21 AM
Eric Decker and Perrish Cox are the same rank? Really? And this isn't just because Cox is a piece of **** of a human being and Eric has a nice ass. Eric, when getting passes from Orton was on course to decent receiving yardage and TDs. So personally I think he should've been ranked higher, but we will see. I think he will break out with Peyton.

As for Perrish, leaving his douchiness aside, I don't see that he was that talented and don't have any particular memories of great or exceptional plays, so 0 might be okay for him. He wasn't horrible, but he wasn't that good either. Eric always showed more IMHO. And yes I know I am going to get **** about this being about my crush, but this honestly is from watching him play and thinking he'd have done a lot more with a conventional QB given what I saw with him and Orton.

lonestar
04-19-2012, 10:29 AM
I actually think Walton will be OK, but Beadles i am concerned about.
Hopefully these guys understand that if they want to become successful,
NFL players and win a ring, they will take a page from our new QB and work
their ass off to be the best. Cause even then, they will more than likely only
be slightly above average.

YOu realize that Beadles played in every slot his rookie season OTHER than OC..

Filled in for clady during preseason was moved to ORT IIRC for Harris and then played some ORG while Kuper was out for a short stretch all before being moved back to OLG for the remaining part of the season.. IIRC he played every snap of the season as did JD walton including preseason..

Perhaps with having NO off-season last year and a traditional sophomore slump Y'all may want to give these guys a bit of a break..

I realize that every player drafted should be a slam dunk to some of Y'all but I rarely heard anyone bitch and complain about mikeys DAFT choices over the years like they have over Joshes..

Drek
04-19-2012, 10:31 AM
Are Orton and Tebow "every other QB in the league"? Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Orton is immobile and has no pocket presence; Tebow is extremely mobile but inexeperienced, lacking in pocket awareness, unable to make good reads or make them quickly, and holds on the ball too long. Neither of these scenarios do an O-line any favors. I shouldn't have to explain this to you, you know all this.

As for your question, I think it's probably a little bit of both.

So what you're saying is that in 2010 and 2011 when Clady looks like **** for two wildly different styles of QBs in two wildly different styles of offenses it's the QBs fault, not his, and that we can't fairly judge him without a HoF level QB taking the snaps?

Manning made some guys who can't even play in the league look passable in Indy. Will he make Clady look better? Sure. But that doesn't mean he's playing better, he's just being exposed less. He'll play better when he gets his lateral mobility back. Then he might be elite again.

Clady's problems have zero to do with the QB and everything to do with Clady's own health and physical abilities.

What part of this post do you not understand (clearly aside from every simple ****ing word)?
Obviously every single word of your post because it makes no ****ing sense.

He isn't consistent on draft position as an evaluation tool. He isn't consistent with production as an evaluation tool. He isn't consistent with ever actually playing NFL football v. not every actually playing NFL football as an evaluation tool.

In effect, he's saying that 1+1 only equals 2 when he says so and you're arguing that in some non-equal to 2 cases he's right.

lonestar
04-19-2012, 10:35 AM
As for Clady I still think he did not recover fully from that knee surgery. May never be the same guy we had as a rookie..

Franklin will get better at pass protect or will be gone..

KUper probably will not be worth a crap for most of the season..

Garcia Bronco
04-19-2012, 10:38 AM
I really want them to kick Franklin inside...I think our interior could be nasty.

And I am not a Tebow hater, but I also agree I don't think we know how good or bad they are based on both him and Orton. One guy was always on a fire drill and the other was a sloth.

Yep...now that we have a QB that can read a defense better than anyone in the game..or as good as anyone in the game...I expect the O-line to look better than it is as opposed to look worse than it is.

Bacchus
04-19-2012, 11:33 AM
I remember being in some Broncos' forums and there were posters calling people idiots becuase posters were questioning the draft picks of Smith and Quinn. Jesus Christ those two picks are the worst two picks in Broncos' history.

They were both huge reaches and the majority of NFL GMs and draft experts just shook their heads at these picks. Quinn had 12 friggin catches in college and Denver traded a 1st round pick for Smith at pick 36! Just a horrible time in Broncos' history. Far worse that the Wade Era.

Bronco Rob
04-19-2012, 12:24 PM
its called cheating.



:thumbs:

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 12:30 PM
This isn't about Tebow,

Exactly. Please apply this logic to your own posts and look up the word "digress", because you clearly missed that my post was not only about the fact that you (once again) were the one to bring Tebow into a thread where he didn't belong, but that I was making fun of your malapropism.

Houshyamama
04-19-2012, 12:37 PM
The problem with McDaniels is that he thought he was smarter than everyone else. Turns out he was wrong.

Gort
04-19-2012, 01:00 PM
The problem with McDaniels is that he thought he was smarter than everyone else. Turns out he was wrong.

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/McDumb_42.gif

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 01:06 PM
The problem with McDaniels is that he thought he was smarter than everyone else. Turns out he was wrong.Very true, but terrible drafts were an issue in Denver long before McDaniels came on board.

DBroncos4life
04-19-2012, 01:15 PM
Very true, but terrible drafts were an issue in Denver long before McDaniels came on board.

I doubt Shanny misses on 6 picks in the first two rounds like McWorthless did. Hell Shanny ended up with a star DE/OLB the year we got Moreno and Ayers!

TonyR
04-19-2012, 01:16 PM
...you (once again) were the one to bring Tebow into a thread where he didn't belong...

Tebow was completely relevant in the context in which I included him. We were talking about the offensive line, and how the offensive line had different issues to deal with when Tebow was QB vs. when Manning will be QB. There was nothing controversial or antagonistic about what I said but your response tried to create an issue where there wasn't one. If you'd quit assuming the worst and jumping to conclusions and then stop and think before you post many of these arguments wouldn't be necessary. You also need to make a concerted effort to stop being so shrill and intemperate every time Tebow's name comes up. When you see his name take a deep breath, hold for 3-5 seconds, and exhale slowly.

TheReverend
04-19-2012, 01:22 PM
I doubt Shanny misses on 6 picks in the first two rounds like McWorthless did. Hell Shanny ended up with a star DE/OLB the year we got Moreno and Ayers!

Well... to be fair he wasn't in town yet.

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 01:23 PM
I doubt Shanny misses on 6 picks in the first two rounds like McWorthless did. Hell Shanny ended up with a star DE/OLB the year we got Moreno and Ayers!

Apparently you weren't around much during the Shanahan tenure.
Marcus Nash
Deltha O'Neal
Willie Middlebrooks
Ashley Lelie
George Foster

Shanahan's draft record in Denver is among the worst in the league.

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 01:23 PM
Tebow was completely relevant in the context in which I included him. We were talking about the offensive line, and how the offensive line had different issues to deal with when Tebow was QB vs. when Manning will be QB. There was nothing controversial or antagonistic about what I said but your response tried to create an issue where there wasn't one. If you'd quit assuming the worst and jumping to conclusions and then stop and think before you post many of these arguments wouldn't be necessary. You also need to make a concerted effort to stop being so shrill and intemperate every time Tebow's name comes up. When you see his name take a deep breath, hold for 3-5 seconds, and exhale slowly.

The chicken is exhausted Tony, give a rest.

DBroncos4life
04-19-2012, 01:34 PM
Apparently you weren't around much during the Shanahan tenure.
Marcus Nash
Deltha O'Neal
Willie Middlebrooks
Ashley Lelie
George Foster

Shanahan's draft record in Denver is among the worst in the league.

I was around, and I would take him any day over McD. I know you loved McD so no point arguing with you.

jhns
04-19-2012, 01:47 PM
No, and I never said he was. I never said anything that was a slight of Tebow. Your boy Dedhed is misunderstanding and over reacting as usual, and now jhns and you are piling on in typical Tebow zombie mob mentality. Can't have a rational discussion with Tebow's name involved without you people losing your minds. I'm not criticizing Tebow! If you people can't post thoughtfully and rationally on such topics you should do everyone a favor and stay out of it.

You keep claiming that you aren't just trolling, but then you keep posting stupid **** pike this. Again, show me where I even mentioned Tebow... Only you made it about Tebow...

You are too stupid for message boards. I really don't know why you still try so hard.

Archer81
04-19-2012, 03:05 PM
Wait...a coach fired 1.5 years after being hired was a bad coach?

You don't say...

:Broncos:

jhns
04-19-2012, 03:13 PM
Wait...a coach fired 1.5 years after being hired was a bad coach?

You don't say...

:Broncos:

You were one who refused to accept it. As were most on this site.

Dedhed
04-19-2012, 03:15 PM
I was around, and I would take him any day over McD. I know you loved McD so no point arguing with you.

McDaniels doesn't have anything to do with Shanahan being a poor GM.

Archer81
04-19-2012, 03:16 PM
You were one who refused to accept it. As were most on this site.


Oh look. Old argument is old. But for old time's sake... He was the HC. I wanted him to do well. He clearly did'nt. I let it go. You probably should as well.

Dick.

:Broncos:

DBroncos4life
04-19-2012, 03:23 PM
McDaniels doesn't have anything to do with Shanahan being a poor GM.

I was around, and I would take him any day over McD. I know you loved McD so no point arguing with you.

:wave:

jhns
04-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Oh look. Old argument is old. But for old time's sake... He was the HC. I wanted him to do well. He clearly did'nt. I let it go. You probably should as well.

Dick.

:Broncos:

You were all mean to me at the time. There is no way I can let that go. My feelings were hurt.

cutthemdown
04-19-2012, 03:28 PM
Fans are crazy if they think either Beadles or Walton are any good. Watch last yr how they get pushed around on every play. The fact Tebow came in and changed up running game was the only reason we gained yards. Otherwise it would have stunk. One of those spots has to be upgraded in the draft.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
04-19-2012, 04:42 PM
What happened to the title? I like the original title much better.

27atwater
04-19-2012, 06:21 PM
I thoroughly believe that on draft day you could have taken 5-10 of the more draft knowledgeable Maners, given them one week of preparation to prepare a draftboard and they would have drafted better than McDaniels did.

I wanted Cushing and LeSean McCoy that year. Granted I had conversations with McCoy when he was a Harrisburg, PA highschooler and really liked the kid, so I was biased. Still..."reaching" on him instead of Ayers looks like it would have been an upgrade. I'm a Vols fan and was laughing at the notion that he was a 1st round talent.

I also woulda taken Maualuaga, Sintim or Barwin over Alphonso.

Blueflame
04-19-2012, 06:51 PM
You were all mean to me at the time. There is no way I can let that go. My feelings were hurt.

Letting go of past grudges is a favor to yourself, Jhns. Vitriol... like hydrochloric acid... does more damage to the container it's stored in than to anything else. And those others who were mean to you? They truly don't care if you're still harboring animosity or not.

Archer81
04-19-2012, 07:00 PM
You were all mean to me at the time. There is no way I can let that go. My feelings were hurt.


I am sure with time and therapy you will fully recover.


:Broncos:

pricejj
04-19-2012, 07:35 PM
Fans are crazy if they think either Beadles or Walton are any good. Watch last yr how they get pushed around on every play. The fact Tebow came in and changed up running game was the only reason we gained yards. Otherwise it would have stunk. One of those spots has to be upgraded in the draft.

Konz (C), Zeitler (OG), or Osemele (OG) would be All-Pro material at pick #25.

BroncoBuff
04-19-2012, 07:52 PM
Blake Schleuter is the worst example of poor draft prep. 7th round pick sure, but he didn't even make it to the first pre-season game. Might be unheard of for a draft pick ... if TC was still in Greeley, that'd be like cutting a draft pick while they're still up there.

pricejj
04-19-2012, 09:23 PM
Blake Schleuter is the worst example of poor draft prep. 7th round pick sure, but he didn't even make it to the first pre-season game. Might be unheard of for a draft pick ... if TC was still in Greeley, that'd be like cutting a draft pick while they're still up there.

That's the problem with McDaniels/Xanders drafts...outside of the top 2 rounds, none of the players are even good enough to be backups.

At least the Goodman's knew how to find value throughout the draft, even locating players in late rounds who could make an impact. Spencer Larsen, a 6th round FB in 2008, became a 4 year starter for the Broncos. 6 of 9 players drafted by the Broncos in 2008 became starters.

The only good McDaniels/Xanders draft was in 2010, a year in which a record number of non-seniors (53) entered to get in on the last year of the CBA without rookie contract limits. Eric Decker would have been a 2nd rounder in any other year, in 2010 he fell all the way to the bottom of the 3rd. Even with such easy pickings, McDaniels/Xanders still reached wildly on the Beadles and Walton picks, severely overdrafting, and ostensibly throwing them in the starting lineup without having to earn spots.

maven
04-19-2012, 09:29 PM
McDaniels SUCKED at drafting.

Heyneck
04-19-2012, 09:35 PM
McDaniels SUCKED at drafting.

McD sucked at everything while here. Even at putting up points that where supposed to be his strong suit. I think he had the right idea when he came here... he just didn't know how to develop that plan.

That and the FO and Bowlen giving him more power than necessary. If we didn't have "Coffee Run" Xanders as GM then we would have been in much better position. Why we got rid of the Goodmans after some really good drafting by them still baffles me.

But anyway... this was all Shannys fault. If he hadn't ignored defense for so long we would probably have a Super Bowl or had been to the playoffs on a consistent basis the last few years.

pricejj
04-19-2012, 09:46 PM
Well, guess who went to the McDaniels School of Draftology?

The disciple of the disciple of the Hooded One (who also sucks at drafting)...

Hoodie Jr.'s illegitimate spawn...

The pool boy...

The one and only, Brian "Pizza Man" Xanders.

Archer81
04-19-2012, 09:49 PM
Well, guess who went to the McDaniels School of Draftology?

The disciple of the disciple of the Hooded One (who also sucks at drafting)...

Hoodie Jr.'s illegitimate spawn...

The pool boy...

The one and only, Brian "Pizza Man" Xanders.


You trust him around pools?

:Broncos:

Miss I.
04-19-2012, 09:55 PM
You trust him around pools?

:Broncos:

not only that, but who the hell would want to see Josh in the required pool boy outfit of a gold lame thong...eeks.

Archer81
04-19-2012, 09:57 PM
not only that, but who the hell would want to see Josh in the required pool boy outfit of a gold lame thong...eeks.


Lame thong? Naked or GTFO.

;)

:Broncos:

pricejj
04-19-2012, 10:01 PM
You trust him around pools?

:Broncos:


It is all in a days work para El Hombre La Pizza...

"for two years, he did grunt work, cleaning the courts, the pool, the toilets, whatever was needed"...

http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/10/26/11/Hard-work-led-FSU-LB-to-Denver-front-off/landing_fsu.html?blockID=590040

Miss I.
04-19-2012, 10:02 PM
Lame thong? Naked or GTFO.

;)

:Broncos:

okay smarty, lamé, but yeah nude would be better, but I was trying not to get that image of Josh in my head....quickly now I must rinse my head out..

Eric...Eric...Eric....Henry....Henry....Henry...he nry and Eric...Henry and Eric...

ah much better now. ;D

DBroncos4life
04-19-2012, 10:03 PM
Well, guess who went to the McDaniels School of Draftology?

The disciple of the disciple of the Hooded One (who also sucks at drafting)...

Hoodie Jr.'s illegitimate spawn...

The pool boy...

The one and only, Brian "Pizza Man" Xanders.
Xanders does nothing!!!!!!!!!! McD didn't leave Nolan alone to coach the D yet you think he took the time to teach Xanders anything? Denver's draft board last year had 7 times the players that McDs ever did. Why would Xanders want that changed if he was running the show like McD?

Archer81
04-19-2012, 10:03 PM
okay smarty, lamé, but yeah nude would be better, but I was trying not to get that image of Josh in my head....quickly now I must rinse my head out..

Eric...Eric...Eric....Henry....Henry....Henry...he nry and Eric...Henry and Eric...

ah much better now. ;D


Eric, Henry, Tebow...I Uhh...what was we talking about?

:Broncos:

Heyneck
04-19-2012, 10:05 PM
This is how I picture McD this days...

http://moderngirlsmovie.com/blogspotcrap/rollerdisco/goldmember.jpg

but we all know he really was a...

http://blogs.egusd.net/mralfonso/files/2010/01/goldmember.jpg

Heyneck
04-19-2012, 10:06 PM
Xanders does nothing!!!!!!!!!! McD didn't leave Nolan alone to coach the D yet you think he took the time to teach Xanders anything? Denver's draft board last year had 7 times the players that McDs ever did. Why would Xanders want that changed if he was running the show like McD?

Becuase it was either get with the new program... or GTFO!!!

Baba Booey
04-19-2012, 10:10 PM
Decker a 0.0 at 87th overall after just two seasons (one being pretty productive)?

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i403/dperry7/1322284767929.png

Vegas_Bronco
04-19-2012, 10:13 PM
We shouldn't talk of the dark lord...some of the darkest times in broncos history...now just drop it before someone gets aids.

Heyneck
04-19-2012, 10:15 PM
We shouldn't talk of the dark lord...some of the darkest times in broncos history...now just drop it before someone gets aids.

Yup... we don't want the snake spitting aids cobra back!

pricejj
04-19-2012, 10:39 PM
Xanders does nothing!!!!!!!!!! McD didn't leave Nolan alone to coach the D yet you think he took the time to teach Xanders anything? Denver's draft board last year had 7 times the players that McDs ever did. Why would Xanders want that changed if he was running the show like McD?

The Pool Boy does nothing, yet he does everything...

The Tao runs strong with Xanders...

He of Rich Mckay tutelage, Shanahan, McHooded, and the Duke himself...

...whistling through the dark hallways of Dove Valley, the Pool Boy readies for another draft, recalling lessons from days of yore. He spots a wrinkled wrapper on the floor, and picks it up. "3...2...1..." he says out loud, steadies his hand, then shoots the shot...

...one week until the draft.

uplink
04-19-2012, 11:11 PM
This article was already posted in a thread
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3560298#post3560298

Br0nc0Buster
04-19-2012, 11:16 PM
by shear luck he should of been able to get better players than he did

you almost have to purposely seek out the ****tiest players to end up with results like the 2009 draft

lonestar
04-20-2012, 12:41 AM
That's the problem with McDaniels/Xanders drafts...outside of the top 2 rounds, none of the players are even good enough to be backups.

At least the Goodman's knew how to find value throughout the draft, even locating players in late rounds who could make an impact. Spencer Larsen, a 6th round FB in 2008, became a 4 year starter for the Broncos. 6 of 9 players drafted by the Broncos in 2008 became starters.

The only good McDaniels/Xanders draft was in 2010, a year in which a record number of non-seniors (53) entered to get in on the last year of the CBA without rookie contract limits. Eric Decker would have been a 2nd rounder in any other year, in 2010 he fell all the way to the bottom of the 3rd. Even with such easy pickings, McDaniels/Xanders still reached wildly on the Beadles and Walton picks, severely overdrafting, and ostensibly throwing them in the starting lineup without having to earn spots.

Goodmans BOvine Excrement. They had one good draft. 06 and where are those head cases today?

Look at all the other drafts mikeys lackeys were responsible for fubaring it up.

Pershaps had the goodmans presented Josh with players JOsh wanted for his schemes they would still be here.

But when your used to DAFTING for mikey and his schemes it is hard to make those moves.

Bacchus
04-20-2012, 07:44 AM
As bad as McDaniels was he did bring us Manning and Elway.

uplink
04-20-2012, 08:40 AM
Belichick predicted that P. Manning would not retire as a Colt since Irsay was a risk taker who liked new challenges in his life. Belichick realized the Broncos were the team Manning would go to. In order to stop the Broncos from beating out the Pats with Manning in the future, Belichick set up McDaniels as a mole to destroy the Broncos organization. Now with his work done McDaniels has returned to the fold. However the Broncos survived the attack still getting P. Manning and still, though ravished with bad personnel moves, having just enough decent players to stop the Pats from winning the upcoming 5 years of AFC championships.

*note this is a joke, I don't really believe this stuff

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
04-20-2012, 09:12 AM
This title isn't as good as the first one, but better than the last one.

Bronco Rob
04-20-2012, 09:23 AM
This title isn't as good as the first one, but better than the last one.



I had to "tone it down" a tinge.....





:~ohyah!:

55CrushEm
04-20-2012, 09:32 AM
-1.5: The scouts/ coaches failed, big time![/b]

Alphonso Smith, CB (37th overall pick in 2009): The pick that in some ways defined McDaniels’ frivolous attitude when it came to drafting. He saw him as a first round talent, so traded away a future first. But when he didn’t enter the league playing like one of the league’s best, faith was quickly lost and he was then traded away for Dan Gronkowski, a former seventh-rounder. This was the perfect storm in terms of making a pick as bad as it can be, and the sad thing for Smith is, he had little to do with it. You draft a player that you think is a first-rounder, you don’t give up on him after a year.



THIS! This was my biggest beef with McD in his 2 years here. I had less of a problem with him drafting Smith....than I did with him letting him go after 1 FUGGIN YEAR!

Bronco Rob
04-21-2012, 06:01 AM
This article was already posted in a thread
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3560298#post3560298



Sorry uplink. I try and do a quick search prior to posting an article musta missed it...

Hulamau
04-21-2012, 10:25 AM
You really have to wonder whether or not Walton and Beadles appeared to digress because of the Tebow offense and maybe they'll look better with Manning. And if not wonder then hope...

Could well be a big factor, we'll find out soon enough. Am sure Clady and Franklin will look a lot better with Manning back there as well.