American Air Boss Speaks Softly, Carries Stick

[lonestar]

American Air Boss Speaks Softly, Carries Stick
April 17, 2012
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American Air Boss Speaks Softly, Carries Stick

AMR CEO Tom Horton.

AMR chief executive Tom Horton may be soft-spoken, but people who know him say he has a backbone of steel and will not flinch if he has to cut thousands of jobs to save the bankrupt American Airlines.

AMR last month asked the US Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan for permission to void contracts with unions that do not agree to the concessions that the airline is demanding. A hearing on the issue is scheduled to begin on April 23.

The right to end contracts is perhaps the sharpest knife a company can wield in bankruptcy, and people who have worked with Horton say he is prepared to use it.

"If people want to test his resolve, they'll find that he's got a steel backbone," said former AT&T CEO David Dorman, who recruited Horton to be chief financial officer of the telecom company in 2002.

In 2004, AT&T announced plans to trim its work force by 20 percent, or about 12,300 jobs. Dorman recalled that Horton did not hesitate when AT&T's restructuring plan called for a 25 percent cut in management staff, a move that met pushback from managers close to Horton.

"Look, this is not my first rodeo," Horton said in a March 16 interview at his office at AMR's headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas.

"I've done a fair bit of M&A (mergers and acquisitions) in a pretty public way in the telecom industry and here at this company in the past. I have done some restructuring work."

The 50-year-old Horton became CEO of AMR as it filed for bankruptcy in November 2011, citing the need to cut costs to match those of rival airlines. Horton replaced his friend Gerard Arpey who had resisted a Chapter 11 filing, preferring negotiated deals to court-imposed contracts.

Arpey had won steep voluntary concessions from the unions in 2003 but the cuts were not enough. AMR lost USD$10 billion over the past decade and has posted net losses for the last four years.

The carrier now aims to shed 13,000 jobs from its 74,000 work force to trim staff costs by USD$1.25 billion. The cost cuts, opposed by the unions, also could mean changes to work rules as well as pay and benefit reductions.

LESSONS LEARNED

Born in Virginia but raised in Texas where his father worked for NASA, Horton holds a degree in accounting from Baylor University in Waco, Texas, and a master of business administration degree from Southern Methodist University in Dallas.

He began his career with AMR in 1985 and held various financial positions. He was appointed chief financial officer in 2000, but left two years later to join AT&T as CFO. Horton later helped lead the 2005 sale of AT&T to SBC Communications, which led to more layoffs.

Horton returned to AMR in 2006 as CFO with expanded responsibilities for network, fleet and alliances. He became AMR's president in 2010.

Horton said he is focused on bringing stability to AMR. He said abrogating deals is a last resort and that he prefers negotiated contracts.

His office is a modest room, decorated with aviation memorabilia, including an autographed photograph of astronaut John Glenn that Horton received when he was 5 years old. Glenn wrote: "Best regards to my friend Tommy Horton."

Bob Crandall, AMR's former CEO, said Horton's skills in finance and restructuring will serve him well as he navigates the maze ahead. In many ways, running an airline and restructuring one are a matter of arithmetic, he said.

"I was a former finance guy. That's where I started," Crandall said. "In the end, the airline business is about lots and lots of numbers."

A NEW CHALLENGE

When Horton returned to AMR at the request of Arpey, he shared the prevailing view at the company that bankruptcy was an "un-American" solution to its woes.

But after years of fruitless talks with unions on concessions, American lagged profitable rivals such as United Airlines and Delta Air Lines. Those carriers restructured in Chapter 11 and later took merger partners. They overtook American in size, knocking it from No. 1 to No. 3.

By late November, the writing was on the wall. AMR's board of directors decided on Chapter 11. The company was able to show sufficient hardship to declare bankruptcy despite having USD$4 billion in cash - enough to operate without outside financing.

"Circumstances change," Horton said. "I think it's fair to say that our company fought that battle as long as it possibly could, did everything possible to avoid going down this path."

Horton shrugged off merger interest from US Airways, saying AMR plans to exit Chapter 11 as a stand-alone company. He dismissed talk of meetings between US Airways and members of AMR's creditors committee, saying objections to a business plan are normal. "There's a lot of due diligence that is done on the plan," he said.

Gordon Bethune, the former Continental CEO credited with turning around the troubled airline in the 1990s, said Horton has a big challenge to preserve the airline's independence.

"He has a 50/50 chance," Bethune said.

'RUTHLESS' DEMANDS

Horton's supporters such as Larry Kellner, a former CEO of Continental Airlines, regard him as smart and analytical. "He's a very strong leader," Kellner said.

His critics frame him as a detached executive who keeps his customers and employees at arm's length.

"He doesn't care about his customers and he doesn't listen to his employees," Laura Glading, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, said in an emailed statement. The union has called AMR's demands "ruthless."

The union representing American Airlines' pilots declined to comment on Horton. A spokesman for the Transport Workers Union, which represents seven work groups at the airline, also declined to comment, saying union leaders do not know the former finance executive well enough to assess his leadership.

Robert Mann, an airline consultant and former AMR executive, ended his career at AMR in 1985, briefly crossing paths with Horton, who was just starting there. He said that while Arpey showed strong resistance to bankruptcy and the toll it takes on workers, Horton embraced the challenge.

"It almost appears that when Arpey refused to carry the pointed stick and poke people in the eye with it, Horton was more than willing to," Mann said.

(Reuters)


http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1334656767.html

life as AA employees knew it is coming to an end..

UNions are toast..at least the contracts are..

[lonestar]

American To Cut 1,200 Non-Union Jobs
April 19, 2012
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American Airlines plans to eliminate another 1,200 jobs as part of its plan to cut costs in bankruptcy, the company said in a letter to employees.

Affected jobs include non-union passenger and cargo agents, sky caps, and baggage service workers at smaller airports, including Memphis, Reno, Sacramento and Portland, Oregon.

American previously announced plans to eliminate 13,000 union jobs, or roughly 15 percent of its workforce, as part of an overall drive to save roughly USD$1.25 billion in annual staff costs.

The latest cuts would come on top of that, the company said.

As part of the announcement, American said it would also close its southwestern reservations centre in Tucson. Those workers, however, will be offered jobs elsewhere or set up as home-based employees.

American will also close its Admirals Clubs at Washington Dulles and Kansas City.

The latest changes, which do not require approval of the New York bankruptcy court, are expected to take place within the next few months, American said.

Other major rivals also cut thousands of jobs when they restructured in bankruptcy several years ago, emerging as leaner and tougher competitors.

AMR, the parent of American Airlines, filed for bankruptcy in November.

The company has also sought permission from the court to void union contracts, including those covering pilots, flight attendants and ground workers.

A hearing on that motion is scheduled for Monday.

(Reuters)


http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1334826907.html

[lonestar]

Merger Support Growing Among AMR Unions
April 20, 2012


At least two unions at bankrupt American Airlines would support a potential merger with US Airways and could issue a joint communication soon pressuring airline management to consider a deal, two sources said on Thursday.

The sources said unions representing flight attendants and ground workers were open to talks between the two airlines. It was unclear if the union representing pilots also would support merger talks, they said.

American Airlines parent AMR filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in November citing high labour costs. The company on Thursday posted a net loss of USD$1.7 billion for the first quarter.

AMR has said repeatedly it wants to exit Chapter 11 as a stand-alone company.

"As you know, there continues to be much takeover speculation in the press fuelled by those who seek to serve their own agendas, including the circulation of misleading information. I expect this to continue and to escalate," AMR chief executive Tom Horton said in a statement accompanying the airlines earnings report on Thursday.

An AMR spokesman declined to comment beyond that statement.

Sources have said US Airways, formed in 2005 from a merger with America West Airlines, has pitched merger proposals to members of AMR's creditors committee, which includes unions, in hopes of attracting support for a deal.

For now, AMR has the right to reorganise without intrusion from outside parties.

"Although we put a high probability that an eventual merger will happen, we believe that this could be aggressive timing since AMR management has the exclusive right to reorganise through the summer," said Ray Neidl, an airline analyst at Maxim.

In March, US Airways gave a presentation to representatives of AMR's unsecured creditors and told them that a combination of the two airlines would create about USD$1.5 billion in synergies, according to people familiar with the matter.

The briefing, which included US Airway's analysis as to how a proposed merger would reduce costs while boosting combined revenues, received positive response from the AMR creditors, they said.

American has said it plans to eliminate 13,000 union jobs, or roughly 15 percent of its work force, as part of an overall drive to save roughly USD$1.25 billion in annual staff costs.

The company has asked the bankruptcy court for permission to void the contracts. A hearing on the matter is set for next week.

The company said on Wednesday it intended to cut another 1,200 non-unions jobs to reach that goal.

Spokesmen for the Transport Workers Union, which represents ground workers, and the Association of Professional Flight Attendants declined to comment. A spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association was not reachable for comment.

(Reuters)

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1334917455.html

[snowspot66]

The unions negotiated with the company and came to an agreement that was signed by the company. Why should they be forced by a judge to give up what was negotiated for and received in a legally binding contract? It's always the unions faults isn't it? It's never the companies failures. It's always the unions. Does responsibility only apply to the individual that can be stepped on and walked over?

I particularly like the part where it says:

Arpey had won steep voluntary concessions from the unions in 2003 but the cuts were not enough.

And then a few paragraphs later says:

But after years of fruitless talks with unions on concessions,

[lonestar]

The unions negotiated with the company and came to an agreement that was signed by the company. Why should they be forced by a judge to give up what was negotiated for and received in a legally binding contract? It's always the unions faults isn't it? It's never the companies failures. It's always the unions. Does responsibility only apply to the individual that can be stepped on and walked over?

I particularly like the part where it says:



And then a few paragraphs later says:

Guess you have never seen someon go through bankruptcy.. everything is on the table..
EVERYTHING

[lonestar]

AMR Fires Opening Shot In Court Battle
April 23, 2012
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American Airlines kicked off a week-long court hearing on its bid to abandon union contracts, telling a judge on Monday that its bankrupt parent, AMR, cannot survive without major concessions from its workforce.

Hundreds of people, including lawyers and airline workers, filled the courtroom and two overflow rooms in US Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan for the start of the hearing, as other unionised workers rallied outside the courthouse.

Cordoned off by police, the workers held signs and chanted for fairer work terms and against AMR's plan to cut about 13,000 union jobs.

AMR wants to convince Judge Sean Lane not only that it desperately needs labour concessions, but that its unions have unreasonably rejected prior attempts to negotiate those concessions. AMR filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in November, citing uncompetitive labour costs.

In opening statements, AMR lawyer Jack Gallagher said the company needs 20 percent across-the-board reductions in employee costs, half of which must come from medical benefits.

AMR spends three times as much annually on medical benefits as the average lower-cost carrier, such as Southwest Airlines, he said.

"It's not the unions' fault we're in bankruptcy, but it's not about whose fault it is," Gallagher said. "It's about the facts of our business."

Edgar James, a lawyer for the Allied Pilots' Association, which represents about 10,000 AMR pilots, said AMR's proposed business plan is unfair, in part because AMR has not done enough to explore possible merger or consolidation options.

"What everyone believes is going to occur is they're going to get out of this bankruptcy and consolidate with someone," yet the company has told the pilots' group it has not considered that option, James said.

Some of AMR's expert witnesses were expected to testify on Monday afternoon, along with the company's chief restructuring officer, Bev Goulet.

After the hearing wraps up, the company and its unions have another two weeks to negotiate. If new terms are still not reached, the unions will have a chance to present their case in court in May.

Regardless of how Lane rules, AMR must keep negotiating for a consensual deal with its unions. A ruling by Lane granting AMR's request to break its contracts would allow AMR to impose its own unilateral terms while those negotiations go on.

WORKERS SAY MERGER COULD SAVE JOBS

In an unusual step in bankruptcy, three unions that represent AMR's pilots, flight attendants and ground workers on Friday said they had struck a deal with US Airways to support a potential merger between US Airways and AMR. They said a deal could save more than 6,000 jobs.

AMR has long shunned merger interest from US Airways, and on Monday, chief executive Tom Horton again shrugged off attention from US Airways in a letter to employees.

"I want you to know these developments in no way alter our course," he said. "We are making significant progress, and the court has granted us the exclusive right to pursue our plan of reorganisation at least through the end of September and this may be extended further."

US Airways chief executive Doug Parker cautioned his employees on Friday that the union deal does not mean a merger is in the works.

If the two airlines combine, it would create a carrier that rivals United Airlines and Delta Air Lines in size and scope.

In March, US Airways gave a presentation to representatives of AMR's unsecured creditors and told them that a combination of the two airlines would create about USD$1.5 billion in synergies, according to people familiar with the matter.

American has about 74,000 full and part-time employees. AMR said in February it expects to trim about 4,600 mechanics and related jobs, 4,200 fleet service workers, 2,300 flight attendants, 1,400 management and support staff, and 400 pilots.

The Association of Professional Flight Attendants, which represents 17,000 employees, said the US Airways plan offers a pay increase of 2.5 percent initially and 1.5 percent a year for the next five years.

Gregg Overman, a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association, declined to give details on the union's deal with US Airways. He also declined to confirm a Wall Street Journal report that the deal would give pilots an immediate 5.5 percent increase and 3 percent a year for five years.

(Reuters)

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1335214787.html

there has NEVER been a merger that did not cost jobs lost of them..

Initially they may not cut but when they merge ground staffs, cut flights in markets they both serve, boht Flight Attendents and pliots lose jobs..

theese unions are way out there in LALA land..

[lonestar]

American imposes concessionary contract terms on its pilots
September 14, 2012
American Airlines, having warned its pilot group that management would impose a new contract on them if they rejected a tentative agreement, followed through with that tactic this week to the dismay of the Allied Pilots Association, according to Dallas’ NBC affiliate station.

American’s pilots soundly rejected a tentative agreement that had less-concessionary terms than what was imposed on them. A bankruptcy judge last month ruled that American had the right to set aside the pilots’ current contract and impose new terms.

American’s pilot union will hold a strike vote Oct. 3; the expected approval from that vote does not mean the pilots will strike, as they will need permission from the National Mediation Board, the story said. One union member called the new contract terms, which began Wednesday night, “atomic” and said American has chosen a “nuclear option” instead of going back to the bargaining table.

The new pilot agreement is the last labor deal American has reworked as it moves through bankruptcy restructuring, having reached ratified deals with its other major labor groups. An American spokesman told NBC that imposing the new contract terms – lower pay, different work rules and more liberal rules on codesharing with other airlines – was regrettable but necessary for American to be able to compete.





American Airlines pilots knew the cuts were coming, but the union calls the new terms “atomic.” A company spokesperson tells NBC 5 that there’s no joy in making the cuts, but claims it has to be done for the airline to survive.

“What they’ve elected to do is really kick the hornet’s nest. They told us they were going to go slow, that they’d like to get back to the bargaining table, but they’ve chosen the nuclear option here,” said First Officer Tom Hoban with the Allied Pilots Association.

Hoban said the cuts coming from American Airlines are just fueling pilots frustrations. The company got the green light last week from a judge to start slashing $370 million in pilot costs. The airline isn’t wasting any time.

“We’re going to be working more days with less pay, under some pretty significant, onerous conditions,” said Hoban.


read more

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/American-Airlines-Pilots-Feel-Painful-Cuts-169608336.html

just a matter of time before they redo all the union contracts

they started with the big guns first and now coming after the rest of them..

[nyuk nyuk]

Amazing considering that at least from Denver, AA charges more than other airlines, and doesn't offer direct service. Most of their fleet are older McDonnell Douglasses, no? According to Wikipedia, their fleet is older than United and oddly I end up on United because other airlines like AA charge more and/or have weird hours for flights and irritating layovers.

[Rohirrim]

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln

[ghwk]

The only thing I know for sure is Horton won't consider his or his other execs salaries, bonuses, etc. on the table. Easy to go cut other people's wages when you have a contract and a golden parachute. Takes no guts at all.

[ant1999e]

The only thing I know for sure is Horton won't consider his or his other execs salaries, bonuses, etc. on the table. Easy to go cut other people's wages when you have a contract and a golden parachute. Takes no guts at all.

I'm with you on this one. If the union has already made concessions and they're still having problems, maybe they need to cut costs somewhere else.

[lonestar]

Amazing considering that at least from Denver, AA charges more than other airlines, and doesn't offer direct service. Most of their fleet are older McDonnell Douglasses, no? According to Wikipedia, their fleet is older than United and oddly I end up on United because other airlines like AA charge more and/or have weird hours for flights and irritating layovers.

for the most part all airlines have the same "base fares" where the differences come in are the airport fees that you pay for every airport you touch via take off, landing or connections.

Now taht is not saying that all the seats on the plane are at the lower rates..

they all have computer models that figre out the best "load" rates for x amounts of seats at the lowest fares going up to the full fares Y "Coach"..

When one airline lowers/raises a fare in a certain market say DEN-LA all the other airlines match them most of the time.. May not dedicate the same number of seats to that fare but can say that the fares are the same..

Most of the airlines have old fleets with US Air probably being the oldest.. that is the airline that AA will probably be merged with and if you think AA is screwed up now just wait..

US Air still has not settled some of the Union issues they had when they merged with America West a very long time ago.. The last I heard they still have not merged the Flight attendant schedules and union rules because they are from different unions..

AA's hubs are in DAL, CHI and LAX IIRC so most of the time you will have to connect in one of those cities to get where you want to go..

Some of Uniteds hub cities are DEN, CHI, HOU, and Newark and LA, so taht is the reason you get direct (non Stop) flights..

[lonestar]

The only thing I know for sure is Horton won't consider his or his other execs salaries, bonuses, etc. on the table. Easy to go cut other people's wages when you have a contract and a golden parachute. Takes no guts at all.

one of the perks of an education, working hard and knowing how to run a business..

[ghwk]

one of the perks of an education, working hard and knowing how to run a business..

Man this is just so fu**ked up on so many levels.

[lonestar]

I'm with you on this one. If the union has already made concessions and they're still having problems, maybe they need to cut costs somewhere else.

the unions for the airlines much like the auto company's are out of touch with the Real world..

In the past strikes crippled both industries and then the money became bloated..

Now that said I really want the best pilot in the world driving the planes I'm on..

but to hear that these poor guys are going to have to be away from home 20 days of the month sorry but the money your making justifies that issue..

most people would love to have 10-11 days off a month.. at home with momma.. There are all sorts of regs that the FEDs have in place for crew rest, most flights over say 8 hours the pilots rotate out of the cockpit for a nap..
On longer flights say from NY to Asia there are two crews to make the flight each direction..

sometimes in life you can't have your cake and eat it also..

[lonestar]

Man this is just so *****ed up on so many levels.

guessing you have never made it past supervisor level..

[ghwk]

guessing you have never made it past supervisor level..

Wrong and I also didn't grow up to be an arrogant ahole who feels I have earned the privelidge to feel superior to others.

Your Christian values are not very Christworthy.

[lonestar]

Wrong and I also didn't grow up to be an arrogant ahole who feels I have earned the privelidge to feel superior to others.

Your Christian values are not very Christworthy.

sure seems that way..

I earned every promotion I got, in some cases more than once.. all form hard work very little arrogance involved at all..

[Rohirrim]

Wow! Talk about sanctimonious arrogance. I hope you live alone. It would be a shame to imagine some poor soul having to put up with such a bloated ego.

[houghtam]

And Jesus said to his disciples:

"And yea, whatsoever you do to the least of me people, that, you do unto me. But if you have a better education than someone, it's your goddamn right to fight for what's yours, no matter who you screw over in the process."

[Garcia Bronco]

The unions negotiated with the company and came to an agreement that was signed by the company. Why should they be forced by a judge to give up what was negotiated for and received in a legally binding contract? It's always the unions faults isn't it? It's never the companies failures. It's always the unions. Does responsibility only apply to the individual that can be stepped on and walked over?

I particularly like the part where it says:



And then a few paragraphs later says:

Because there are a number of assumptions, business assumptions, that never came to be and based on that the company is billions in debt. So now you're in a situation where you either need to cut people to save the ship or let everybody drown. Good luck with that. I'll never fly American Airlines or US Airways because they ****ing suck.

[houghtam]

Because there are a number of assumptions, business assumptions, that never came to be and based on that the company is billions in debt. So now you're in a situation where you either need to cut people to save the ship or let everybody drown. Good luck with that. I'll never fly American Airlines or US Airways because they ****ing suck.

That's what I was going to say...the only people who fly AA do so because they have no other choice. Same with Delta. If there were actual competition between airlines instead of every airline having their own hubs and regions where they're the de facto sole carriers, this wouldn't have ever become an issue in the first place.

Same with cable companies today, same with telephone service back in the day. The illusion of choice that props up companies who would otherwise fail when faced with legitimate competition goes directly against the alleged free market.

[Blart]

Pilots are living in poverty (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/nyregion/17pilot.html?pagewanted=all), donating plasma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ) for money, surviving on foodstamps (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/mikes-blog-1-pilots-food-stamps).

This is the quality of pilot you should expect on poverty wages,

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lxywEE1kK6I" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>


Here's the Hudson River hero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jZPvVwvX_Nc#!), the type of pilot you're never going to see again:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8kePiiZ8_YA" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Skip to 3:35,
"I don't know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps"


PBS has a good documentary on the problem,
"Flying Cheap"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/

[houghtam]

Pilots are living in poverty (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/nyregion/17pilot.html?pagewanted=all), donating plasma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ) for money, surviving on foodstamps (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/mikes-blog-1-pilots-food-stamps).

This is the quality of pilot you should expect on poverty wages,

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lxywEE1kK6I" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>


Here's the Hudson River hero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jZPvVwvX_Nc#!), the type of pilot you're never going to see again:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8kePiiZ8_YA" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Skip to 3:35,
"I don't know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps"


PBS has a good documentary on the problem,
"Flying Cheap"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/

LOL who needs facts when you've got God and "capitalism" to hide behind?

[Rohirrim]

And people wonder why I refuse to fly. :oyvey:

[That One Guy]

Wow, Lonestar is still an idiot.

As for the union folk, the focus should be on increasing jobs in the US and preventing outsourcing. Unions can only function when there's a shortage of workers so the unions have some of the chips. When people are basically on their knees begging for a job and have no bargaining chips, unions will repeatedly get crushed.

Oh, and always have an alternative option so you won't get walked on. That wouldn't hurt either.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by snowspot66
The unions negotiated with the company and came to an agreement that was signed by the company. Why should they be forced by a judge to give up what was negotiated for and received in a legally binding contract? It's always the unions faults isn't it? It's never the companies failures. It's always the unions. Does responsibility only apply to the individual that can be stepped on and walked over?


Yes contracts were signed in some cases decades ago. negotiated but sometime the unions threaten of a strike or an actual strike caused contracts that were one sided..

I saw some data years ago (80's) that the average guy that worked on the assemble line in DET was making close to 80 bucks an hour when you factored in the benefits they had including Mercedes health plans..
all of this for putting a fender or bumper on a Buick.. Even the guy pushing a broom around cleaning up was making the same money..
ZERO intelligence required to do something like that..

They were prime jobs to get at the time and NOW a reason that most of those jobs are replaced with robots.. or the factories were closed because of labor costs..

As for the airlines some of the pilots making 300k+ a year for working a few days out of the month.. Lots of senior Flight attendants are doing the same..

Now I know that the FAA has restrictions on hours worked and how many days you can work consecutively before there is mandated rest time...

I went to Germany a month ago and about an hour into the flight one of the captains came back into the first class cabin and put up a curtain around a seat and proceeded to go take a nap or watch the movie not sure what because it was blocked off... the other one switched off a couple hours later.. same on the return flight..

They get fed first class meals and in most cases stay in at least 3 star hotels each with their own room.. In many cases 4-5 star hotels depending on where they travel.. Picked up at curbside and take to the hotel and returned the same way they get reduced rates on food and drink while they are there..

In some cases senior pilots take second jobs because they are bored sitting at home.. can only play so much golf you know..

As for the junior pilots their wage scale is considerably less but then that is because the old guys want more to keep up their standard of living..

Is it right that the courts are voiding their contracts?
I guess some cuts have to be made to make sure everyone has a job.

I would think that most of the commies on here would get that..


Bankruptcy judges look at the whole package all of the financial issues and make hard decisions.. Some things go some stay. In this case the union contracts are out of line with the long term good of the airline.. Most of the Union contracts will be looked at and revised.. as are every contract that has been signed by AA, the vendors that supply them with food, fuel, hotels their crews stay at.. Airport contracts for space and rent..

The judge has to make some hard decisions that could not have been made by management..

[Garcia Bronco]

Wow, Lonestar is still an idiot.

As for the union folk, the focus should be on increasing jobs in the US and preventing outsourcing. Unions can only function when there's a shortage of workers so the unions have some of the chips. When people are basically on their knees begging for a job and have no bargaining chips, unions will repeatedly get crushed.

Oh, and always have an alternative option so you won't get walked on. That wouldn't hurt either.

Yep. Are worker are now competing in a global market and it's not a sellers market from a Union perspective. To move someone...you need a lever...and on that lever you need leverage and few Unions are in a position to do that.

[lonestar]

American Issues Layoff Notices, Cuts Flights
September 18, 2012


American Airlines said on Tuesday it has notified more than 11,000 workers they could lose their jobs as part of its bankruptcy, and added it is cutting flights by one to two percent for the rest of September and October.

The US carrier, which filed for Chapter 11 protection last year, expects fewer than 40 percent of those it sent notices to, or 4,400 people, will actually be laid off in November and December, spokesman Bruce Hicks said.

The layoff notices were issued under the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act, which requires employees to be informed 60 days before major layoffs or plant closures

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348012201.html

loads more to read at that site..

AA is biting the bullet..

[lonestar]

American Cuts Capacity Amid Canceled Flights, Sick Pilots
By Mary Schlangenstein on September 18, 2012


American Airlines (AAMRQ) cut U.S. capacity by as much as 2 percent for the rest of this month and October as pilot retirements, sick calls and mechanical issues left the carrier with more cancellations than any of its U.S. competitors.

The airline is trimming flight and seating capacity less than a week after imposing cost cuts on its pilots. The reductions take effect immediately and will occur “selectively across our system,” Bruce Hicks, a spokesman, said in an interview. American led the U.S. industry in both scrapped flights and delays yesterday, according to FlightStats.com.

American, a unit of AMR Corp., won bankruptcy court permission on Sept. 12 to void its existing pilot contract and impose cost cuts after the workers rejected the carrier’s final contract offer. Pilots are conducting a strike vote, though they currently don’t have the legal right to stage a work stoppage.

more at

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-09-17/american-cuts-capacity-amid-canceled-flights-sick-pilots

[lonestar]

AMR Bondholders Demand Payment
September 19, 2012
Bookmark and Share

Holders of USD $450 million in American Airlines bonds plan to ask a US bankruptcy judge for an order to help ensure they get paid, claiming that the 143 planes that are collateral for their investment could lose too much value.

The bondholders' agent, US Bank, is expected to argue at a Thursday hearing in US Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan that American has neglected its planes, and failed to make hundreds of repairs.

They fear that this and other costs could force the value of the planes to sink too low to cover the bonds.

The value "will continue to erode as a result of the costs to insure, store, ferry, market and sell the aircraft," US Bank said in court papers.

Most of the planes are older aircraft, including Boeing 757s and MD-82/83s made by McDonnell Douglas. Payment on the bonds is due October 15.

more at

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348100214.html


rutt ro

US Bank justified its action, saying AMR recently missed a USD$36 million interest payment,

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wow, Lonestar is still an idiot.


How sad is it for lonestar that even his fellow conservatives think so? Ha!

[lonestar]

once again the peanut gallery makes another cheap shot.. glad the moron is on iggy..

wonder what his butt buddy is doing about now..

[lonestar]

once again the peanut gallery makes another cheap shot.. glad the moron is on iggy..

wonder what his butt buddy is doing about now..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

^

Gotta chuckle at these chimps who put you on ignore only to continue commenting on your posts which they "no longer read..."

:laugh:

[lonestar]

American Air Pilot Union Denies Job Action
September 20, 2012

The union representing pilots at American Airlines said it has called no job action at the bankrupt carrier, which this week cancelled hundreds of flights citing increased pilot maintenance reports and sick leave usage.

American began implementing cost cuts for its pilots this month after a US bankruptcy judge ruled the airline could abandon its collective bargaining agreement with the pilots' union.

The airline said on Wednesday it cancelled about 300 flights for this week out of nearly 24,000 departures planned across its network, including the American Eagle regional division.

American cited factors including "an increase in maintenance reports filed by pilots, as well as levels of sick leave usage that have been running higher than historical norms."

more at..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348183265.html

how can you tell if a union rep is lying?

his lips are moving..

this is the opposite thing these morons should be doing..

the public has to have confidence in the airline they chose..

right now Travel Agents all over the place are telling their clients to go with anyone but AA, and this is prime time for holiday travel bookings..

doing this kind of crap will sink that airline or SHRINK it into something a lot less Pilots will have a job at..

not to mention they have US Air waiting in the wings to pick the bones of this airline and a hell of a lot more union jobs will go up in smoke..

[ghwk]

more at..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348183265.html

how can you tell if a union rep is lying?

his lips are moving..

this is the opposite thing these morons should be doing..

the public has to have confidence in the airline they chose..

right now Travel Agents all over the place are telling their clients to go with anyone but AA, and this is prime time for holiday travel bookings..

doing this kind of crap will sink that airline or SHRINK it into something a lot less Pilots will have a job at..

not to mention they have US Air waiting in the wings to pick the bones of this airline and a hell of a lot more union jobs will go up in smoke..

You sound delighted with glee at the way this is playing out. Very sad for everyone.

[lonestar]

You sound delighted with glee at the way this is playing out. Very sad for everyone.

Not at all.. It is sad but then the unions most of all caused this nightmare of not doing the right thing while the company is in Bankruptcy..

The judge can do anything on contracts if he does not like them (contracts)..

why the unions do not get this after going through the same thing with UA, CO, DL, US Air is beyond me..


why they give the members bad info is almost criminal and now the pilots are butt hurt and are causing even more problems that are going to do nothing but sink the ship..

the Pilots and unions think they are being smart by getting out on the runway and calling in a bogus malfunction all that does is cost the airline even more money PAYING full fare at the other airlines to get their passengers to their destinations..

real smart getting 300 bucks for a ticket and then turning around and paying 800 to put them on CO Dl or UA.. or they wind up paying the customers for their inconvenience by putting them up in a hotel and buying them meals plus up to 800 for them not getting to their destination on time..

Or even better yet setting out on the runway and not allowing passengers to deplane.. that gets them government fines.. BIG ONES..

These morons just do not get it that the Bankruptcy judge can do anything to contracts the unions have ZERO power..

IIRC there is a federal law about preventing airline unions from striking so the employees are screwed..

Again AA is losing millions daily in advanced bookings and frankly they need every buck they can scrape together to get out of bankruptcy..

US air is just waiting to pick over the bone and that airline is the last one you want to own you..

last time I heard they still do not have a working relationship between teh two uninons that cover the Flight attendants one for the old America west folks the other for the US air folks this has to be going on since 2004..

[ghwk]

Not at all.. It is sad but then the unions most of all caused this nightmare of not doing the right thing while the company is in Bankruptcy..

The judge can do anything on contracts if he does not like them (contracts)..

why the unions do not get this after going through the same thing with UA, CO, DL, US Air is beyond me..


why they give the members bad info is almost criminal and now the pilots are butt hurt and are causing even more problems that are going to do nothing but sink the ship..

the Pilots and unions think they are being smart by getting out on the runway and calling in a bogus malfunction all that does is cost the airline even more money PAYING full fare at the other airlines to get their passengers to their destinations..

real smart getting 300 bucks for a ticket and then turning around and paying 800 to put them on CO Dl or UA.. or they wind up paying the customers for their inconvenience by putting them up in a hotel and buying them meals plus up to 800 for them not getting to their destination on time..

Or even better yet setting out on the runway and not allowing passengers to deplane.. that gets them government fines.. BIG ONES..

These morons just do not get it that the Bankruptcy judge can do anything to contracts the unions have ZERO power..

IIRC there is a federal law about preventing airline unions from striking so the employees are screwed..

Again AA is losing millions daily in advanced bookings and frankly they need every buck they can scrape together to get out of bankruptcy..

US air is just waiting to pick over the bone and that airline is the last one you want to own you..

last time I heard they still do not have a working relationship between teh two uninons that cover the Flight attendants one for the old America west folks the other for the US air folks this has to be going on since 2004..

So if I understand you, the outcome occurring here is Lose Lose and it is the unions fault right?

[lonestar]

So if I understand you, the outcome occurring here is Lose Lose and it is the unions fault right?

mostly..the unions past threats of strikes forced the hands of management to cave into their demands..

when other airline and for that matter companies were able to go through bankruptcy and lower their costs the UNIONs (read employees) blocked AA from getting their costs down..

with the threat of more and more work disruptions like what is going on now with the pilots..

the unions forced AA into bankruptcy to be able to compete with the other majors who had already cut costs..

Now although they are denying it is a work action set up by the union (read Pilots) it is now maybe even crippling AA for money needed to get out of Bankruptcy by these childish acts.. This is prime time for folks booking holiday travel and all the press about the late, cancelled flights as well as reports of lack of maintenance of their planes is sending people to the other airlines and forcing AA to trim even more flights than they would because of the work action..

Which will lead to even more layoffs IIRC 4400 so far up to perhaps as many as 10,000.

which of course just leads to more unemployment and jobs lost in the private sector as suppliers to AA and those folks that AA employees do spend their money at are forced to cut staff also..


the short version is the UNION gave the Pilots false hope that the Judge would not void their contract.. and therefore they did not set down with AA and make concessions that would have stopped all this nonsense..

now for the most part the Judge will be making Managements decisions for them on a new contract.. and every time that has happened it has been brutal..

I have lots of friends locally at AA, but some of the employees arrogance has cost them jobs.. Their blind faith that the unions will force the big bad CEO to cave may just be the death nell of AA as most know it today..

[houghtam]

the unions forced AA into bankruptcy to be able to compete with the other majors who had already cut costs..

Sure it wasn't you know, a poor business model and execution?

The burden to prove it was the unions' fault lays squarely on your shoulders.

[lonestar]

Sure it wasn't you know, a poor business model and execution?

The burden to prove it was the unions' fault lays squarely on your shoulders.

sure it was a poor business model but it was based on lousy union contracts as well.. it was also based on what the other airlines pre-bankruptcies models..

and therefore completely out of date..

Not sure how much you know about the airline industry but since deregulation happens decades ago it is highly competitive with income streams..
one airline reduces fares, most otehrs match it.. I saw as many as seven changes in basic fares a few years back..

the airline years ago literally would call each other and tell the competition that they were changing fares Mostly before the age of big time computing..

the Feds put a stop to the calls ..

now they do not have to as all the fares loaded in each of their systems for distribution go through a clearing house. ARC so travel agents, GDS Global distributing Systems and the biggie online scheme such as expedia can see their fares..

all the airlines have computers that watch these types of changes and they have the ability to match them with in minutes..

all they need to do so is a decision maker to hit the button..

therefore the only real thing that management has control of are labor costs and supplier contracts.. for food, rents and planes, etc. While fuel is their biggest cost and well not much the can do about that..

Although Delta has just bought a shut down refinery in PA and has just reopened it to make jet fuel to their own standards while selling off the other refined products to conoco IIRC, they think this will save them $500,000,000.00 a year..

AA has had their hands tied for year and has gotten concession years ago from most of the union contracts they were not enough to save them..Their fleet is one of the oldest, however IIRC US Air fleet is older..

bad business model sure but labor costs are the second biggest expense for an airline after fuel.. When that is out of whack and LOCKED in to contracts the only place to go it to a JUDGE which they did everyone in the industry knew it was coming and frankly everyone was surprised they held off as long as they did.. they were trying to get new contracts with unions..

hope that helps..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Sure it wasn't you know, a poor business model and execution?

The burden to prove it was the unions' fault lays squarely on your shoulders.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

http://www.bartcop.com/fox-fix-stupid_n.jpg

[elsid13]

As a manager I know you to have to manage both labor and capital costs if you want to be successful. To blame labor as sole reason for failure is weak ass excuse, it's poor management and leadership result in the problems with AA, but I am sure executives don't want to take responsibility because there goes their bonuses.

[houghtam]

As a manager I know you to have to manage both labor and capital costs if you want to be successful. To blame labor as sole reason for failure is weak ass excuse, it's poor management and leadership result in the problems with AA, but I am sure executives don't want to take responsibility because there goes their bonuses.

As a manager, I've also had unions working for me before. It is not easy and can be frustrating, but a contract is a contract. I honored the terms of the contract while in management, and I voiced my displeasure to the management for trying to break the union unethically.

Contract's a contract. You break it, your word is forfeit.

[lonestar]

American Ready To Resume Talks With Pilots
September 25, 2012


The union representing pilots at American Airlines said the airline wants to resume talks, indicating the company's intent in resolving a stalemate with the association.

Bruce Hicks, a spokesman for American, confirmed the carrier had told the pilots' union in writing that it was ready to restart talks to try to reach a contract agreement.

lets hope they accomplish something..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348575535.html

[kappys]

sure it was a poor business model but it was based on lousy union contracts as well.. it was also based on what the other airlines pre-bankruptcies models..

and therefore completely out of date..

Not sure how much you know about the airline industry but since deregulation happens decades ago it is highly competitive with income streams..
one airline reduces fares, most otehrs match it.. I saw as many as seven changes in basic fares a few years back..

the airline years ago literally would call each other and tell the competition that they were changing fares Mostly before the age of big time computing..

the Feds put a stop to the calls ..

now they do not have to as all the fares loaded in each of their systems for distribution go through a clearing house. ARC so travel agents, GDS Global distributing Systems and the biggie online scheme such as expedia can see their fares..

all the airlines have computers that watch these types of changes and they have the ability to match them with in minutes..

all they need to do so is a decision maker to hit the button..

therefore the only real thing that management has control of are labor costs and supplier contracts.. for food, rents and planes, etc. While fuel is their biggest cost and well not much the can do about that..

Although Delta has just bought a shut down refinery in PA and has just reopened it to make jet fuel to their own standards while selling off the other refined products to conoco IIRC, they think this will save them $500,000,000.00 a year..

AA has had their hands tied for year and has gotten concession years ago from most of the union contracts they were not enough to save them..Their fleet is one of the oldest, however IIRC US Air fleet is older..

bad business model sure but labor costs are the second biggest expense for an airline after fuel.. When that is out of whack and LOCKED in to contracts the only place to go it to a JUDGE which they did everyone in the industry knew it was coming and frankly everyone was surprised they held off as long as they did.. they were trying to get new contracts with unions..

hope that helps..

Poor business model based on cheap fuel and business flights.

Airlines are stuck because they can't really raise their prices much - if they do people stop traveling. Business travel is becoming more and more optional in a lot fields thanks to some of the teleconferencing options that are out there now.

The unions have no real choice here - if AA goes bankrupt then they get nothing anyways. Still I feel its always a shame that unions and their benefits get slashed in these sorts of negociations but there is usually little or no limitation of executive pay/compensation as part of the legal arrangements.

[lonestar]

Poor business model based on cheap fuel and business flights.

Airlines are stuck because they can't really raise their prices much - if they do people stop traveling. Business travel is becoming more and more optional in a lot fields thanks to some of the teleconferencing options that are out there now.

The unions have no real choice here - if AA goes bankrupt then they get nothing anyways. Still I feel its always a shame that unions and their benefits get slashed in these sorts of negociations but there is usually little or no limitation of executive pay/compensation as part of the legal arrangements.
I agree that some of the execs make way more than they are worth, but then most of their compensation they make is in stock options and benifits..

it is not actual money..

Unfortunately YEARS ago at most union shops and the airlines are no different wages got skewed and workers got used to the lifestyle..

Flight attendants making 70K a year and only actually working 40 hours a month or less.. and that was not including the benefits, or a auto worker making as much or more for putting a bumper on.. just a couple of examples of over the top salaries now they are unable to pay these wages as YOU said competition came in with much lower wages SWA as an example when they first started had brand new planes that required a lot less maintenance and gas was cheap and employees none had any seniority and while they had some pension benefits being offered the actual payouts on those were 20 years down the line.. they offered 19 dollar fares.

the other airlines in those same markets had to match them.. all the while paying sky high benefits and wages..

mostly the same thing happened to the auto industry.. with imports..

Americans got fat and lazy with high wages and we did not plan long term..

Now most of the companies understand that they have to look at long term and the employees are caught up in it..

got an appointment may expand on this later..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I agree that some of the execs make way more than they are worth, but then most of their compensation they make is in stock options and benifits(sic)...

it is not actual money..



L0L!

http://www.cscc.edu/update/images/laughing.smileface2.gif

You can't make this sh*t up!

[lonestar]

LOL

blah blah blah..

I'm guessing STILL absolutely nothing of value you to say

[Jetland]

LOL

blah blah blah..

I'm guessing STILL absolutely nothing of value you to say

I am begging you to at least read anything you type twice before you hit send. Do a quick double check to make sure it bears some resemblance to an actual complete thought.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LOL

blah blah blah..

I'm guessing STILL absolutely nothing of value you to say

Gotta L0L @ chuckleheads who put people on ignore only to continue responding to their posts.

You're obsessed. Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I am begging you to at least read anything you type twice before you hit send. Do a quick double check to make sure it bears some resemblance to an actual complete thought.

Trust me - you're setting the bar WAY too high for lonestar. :D

[lonestar]

LOL

blah blah blah..

I'm guessing, you STILL absolutely nothing of value you to say..

[Jetland]

LOL

blah blah blah..

I'm guessing, you STILL absolutely nothing of value you to say..

blah blah blah
I'm guessing, you still HAVE absolutely no idea how to form a thought then type that thought in a manner which can be read by humans.

[Jetmeck]

the unions for the airlines much like the auto company's are out of touch with the Real world..

In the past strikes crippled both industries and then the money became bloated..

Now that said I really want the best pilot in the world driving the planes I'm on..

but to hear that these poor guys are going to have to be away from home 20 days of the month sorry but the money your making justifies that issue..

most people would love to have 10-11 days off a month.. at home with momma.. There are all sorts of regs that the FEDs have in place for crew rest, most flights over say 8 hours the pilots rotate out of the cockpit for a nap..
On longer flights say from NY to Asia there are two crews to make the flight each direction..

sometimes in life you can't have your cake and eat it also..




Let your union hating ass go until I read this. I work there and we gave up in 2003 .... 18.5 % in wage and benefit concessions only to find they recently gave the board a round of bonuses.

You know they are more important than labor and so they got bonuses while we got concessions.

They have given rounds of bonuses to the board since then ........ the union convinced maintenance to accept another concessionary contract because they were scared of the judge and rightly so........labor always gets the shaft.

But seems odd the concessionary contract was passed by a 50.25%
margin ? Really........

Point here is lonestar hates union and labor and knows nothing about American Airlines other than what he reads in ther media and makes up in his labor hating mind.

I work there. The CEO we had for the last 10 years refused to take us to bankruptcy court because of what we gave up in 03.

We had done our part......bankruptcy was there way to get what they wanted and put all the blame on labor AGAIN...............

Board got rid of CEO who was on our side and in came the latest one who IMMEDIATELY took us into bankruptcy.

Greedy bastards have 4 billion in assets in parent company.

Labor did its part like other airlines who had a concessionary contract and are now profitable.

This rests squarely with management ................

**** you lonestar................still got my pension !

[lonestar]

Let your union hating ass go until I read this. I work there and we gave up in 2003 .... 18.5 % in wage and benefit concessions only to find they recently gave the board a round of bonuses.

You know they are more important than labor and so they got bonuses while we got concessions.

They have given rounds of bonuses to the board since then ........ the union convinced maintenance to accept another concessionary contract because they were scared of the judge and rightly so........labor always gets the shaft.

But seems odd the concessionary contract was passed by a 50.25%
margin ? Really........

Point here is lonestar hates union and labor and knows nothing about American Airlines other than what he reads in ther media and makes up in his labor hating mind.

I work there. The CEO we had for the last 10 years refused to take us to bankruptcy court because of what we gave up in 03.

We had done our part......bankruptcy was there way to get what they wanted and put all the blame on labor AGAIN...............

Board got rid of CEO who was on our side and in came the latest one who IMMEDIATELY took us into bankruptcy.

Greedy bastards have 4 billion in assets in parent company.

Labor did its part like other airlines who had a concessionary contract and are now profitable.

This rests squarely with management ................

**** you lonestar................still got my pension !


The CEO was clearly wrong as it took the board just a few minutes to declared bankruptcy after they fired his ass.. well a little longer than that but not much..

The CEO had a fiduciary responsibility to the stock holders as well as the rest of the employees of the company, to take action and he did not.. fired for cause....


I do not deny that concessions were made in the early 2000's but obliviously it was not enough.. as for the management taking bonuses I find it strange you would stick up for the CEO for not doing his job while taking bonuses..

As I have made clear on hundreds of posts over the years, Unions are blooding suckers that rarely accomplish much other than take hard earned money from the workers.. a case in point is American Airlines..

As for that supposed $4 billion being held by AMR, it is part of the bankruptcy info that has been filed with the courts.. it is included in the financial statements filed with them and even with them at the time of the filing
In its bankruptcy petition filed in Manhattan, AMR reported assets of $24.72 billion and liabilities of $29.55 billion. The company has $4.1 billion in cash.


Since the $4.1 Billion is an asset it is already figured in the asset column.

Simple math shows..

+24.55
-29.55
=====
-4.83

That means AA is in the hole moron, even including the $4 billion your raving about.... without it it would be -$8,730,000,000 in the hole..

not counting this which adds even more to the debt....


American plans to operate normally while in bankruptcy, but the Chapter 11 filing could punch a hole in the pensions of roughly 130,000 workers and retirees.

AMR pension plans are $10 billion short of what the carrier owes, and any default could be the largest in U.S. history, government pension insurers estimated.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-americanairlines-idUSTRE7AS0T220111130


Pardon me all to hell if I take the word of a federal bankruptcy Judge over the malarkey your union is feeding you..

Not to mention I have lots of friends that work for AA here in ELP, LAX as well as other airlines..SO while I may not have your union reps perspective I have theirs as well as what I do read in the papers .. I follow the aviation industry a lot and have worked at or near airports or dealt with the airlines in some manner for over 40 years..

While I feel sorry about what has happened at AA every airline has had to go through Bankruptcy at least once.. just so happens it was AA time..

I think most logical and reasonable posters get that your on the wrong end of this very crappy stick..

[Jetmeck]

[QUOTE=lonestar;3681815]The CEO was clearly wrong as it took the board just a few minutes to declared bankruptcy after they fired his ass.. well a little longer than that but not much..

The CEO had a fiduciary responsibility to the stock holders as well as the rest of the employees of the company, to take action and he did not.. fired for cause....


I do not deny that concessions were made in the early 2000's but obliviously it was not enough.. as for the management taking bonuses I find it strange you would stick up for the CEO for not doing his job while taking bonuses..

As I have made clear on hundreds of posts over the years, Unions are blooding suckers that rarely accomplish much other than take hard earned money from the workers.. a case in point is American Airlines..

As for that supposed $4 billion being held by AMR, it is part of the bankruptcy info that has been filed with the courts.. it is included in the financial statements filed with them and even with them at the time of the filing


Since the $4.1 Billion is an asset it is already figured in the asset column.

Simple math shows..

+24.55
-29.55
=====
-4.83

That means AA is in the hole moron, even including the $4 billion your raving about.... without it it would be -$8,730,000,000 in the hole..

not counting this which adds even more to the debt....




http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-americanairlines-idUSTRE7AS0T220111130


Pardon me all to hell if I take the word of a federal bankruptcy Judge over the malarkey your union is feeding you..

Not to mention I have lots of friends that work for AA here in ELP, LAX as well as other airlines..SO while I may not have your union reps perspective I have theirs as well as what I do read in the papers .. I follow the aviation industry a lot and have worked at or near airports or dealt with the airlines in some manner for over 40 years..

While I feel sorry about what has happened at AA every airline has had to go through Bankruptcy at least once.. just so happens it was AA time..

I think most logical and reasonable posters get that your on the wrong end of this very crappy stick..[/QUO





4 billion in assets are there..............the rest is shady accounting.

Every other airline who took paycuts is making money.

WE already gave enough, **** the share holders,,,,jobs are more importANT.


"Unions are blood suckers"...........saying this tells everyone here what an uneducated person you are. People died for workers rights and work rules that we have today.

ALL you need to know is we need unions to offset ass clowns like yourself who would **** every employee over.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQLsknPpjI

Watch this listen up......Bain capital is involved.

ASS clown like think its all labor's fault every time......your time will come.......karma


IF you wanna believe they are 8oo million in the hole fine...then tell me why they made the largest order of aircraft in history ?

Where did all that money come from ? Billions and billions ?

Seen AA lose 5oo million a year or make a billion..............so even if they were 800 million in the hole that is not an excuse to go to bankruptcy..............it was only to get concessions they wanted.

Your wrong, misinformed and telling a guy that worked there 23 years he doesn't know what going on inside his company ? labor hating ass...........you wanna blame it all on unions.

DID a union employee abuse you as a child ?

[houghtam]

ALL you need to know is we need unions to offset ass clowns like yourself who would **** every employee over.

This sentence is key. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Unions, for the most part, have outlived the usefulness they once served. There are many laws in place which now render much of what they once fought for moot.

The primary purpose of unions nowadays is as a check and balance against corporations controlling all the power and abusing that power against the little guy.

Workers, both public and private, have every right to unionize, peaceably assemble, and operate in whichever way they decide is best to protect their jobs. Corporations and public entities have every right to do whatever they feel is necessary to address worker strikes and union concerns, including replacing those workers who strike.

It is no concern of mine how poorly the deals struck by companies favored those companies. They struck a deal. They signed a contract. If they go bankrupt as a result, perhaps they should have thought twice about where the money they were making was allocated. If a company goes bankrupt and thousands of union jobs are lost, it is also the fault of the union that those jobs are lost, because they should be looking out for their members. That is why in most cases, unions only strike when the members vote to do so.

Both the unions and the companies are in the same boat. You made your bed, you sleep in it.

[lonestar]

This sentence is key. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Unions, for the most part, have outlived the usefulness they once served. There are many laws in place which now render much of what they once fought for moot.

The primary purpose of unions nowadays is as a check and balance against corporations controlling all the power and abusing that power against the little guy.

Workers, both public and private, have every right to unionize, peaceably assemble, and operate in whichever way they decide is best to protect their jobs. Corporations and public entities have every right to do whatever they feel is necessary to address worker strikes and union concerns, including replacing those workers who strike.

It is no concern of mine how poorly the deals struck by companies favored those companies. They struck a deal. They signed a contract. If they go bankrupt as a result, perhaps they should have thought twice about where the money they were making was allocated. If a company goes bankrupt and thousands of union jobs are lost, it is also the fault of the union that those jobs are lost, because they should be looking out for their members. That is why in most cases, unions only strike when the members vote to do so.

Both the unions and the companies are in the same boat. You made your bed, you sleep in it.


Excellent post logical and without uber emotion, unlike others in this thread..

You are absolutely correct that unions for the most part have out lived their usefulness.. are there abuses of power but that is one reason the NLRB OSHA and God only knows how many other federal agencies have been put into place..

Not to mention the redundancy of state agencies that mirror what the feds do.. and for the most part are a waste of taxpayer money..

I see them as blood suckers that accomplish little and take dues that are wasted ..

[lonestar]

American Warns of Action Against Pilot Union
September 27, 2012

American Airlines sent a letter to its pilot union late on Wednesday saying the company would seek legal action if the union fails to ensure the airline operates smoothly.

The airline has had to cancel hundreds of flights recently due to increased pilot maintenance reports and sick leave usage.

American Airlines, a unit of AMR that filed for bankruptcy in November, began implementing cost cuts for its pilots this month after a US bankruptcy judge ruled the airline could abandon its collective bargaining agreement with the pilots' union.

"We do not want to pursue a legal remedy, but we will be left with little alternative if Allied Pilots Association (APA) does not take action to stop those pilots who are intentionally harming the operation," the company said in the letter.



more at..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348791496.html

[lonestar]

The CEO was clearly wrong as it took the board just a few minutes to declared bankruptcy after they fired his ass.. well a little longer than that but not much..

The CEO had a fiduciary responsibility to the stock holders as well as the rest of the employees of the company, to take action and he did not.. fired for cause....


I do not deny that concessions were made in the early 2000's but obliviously it was not enough.. as for the management taking bonuses I find it strange you would stick up for the CEO for not doing his job while taking bonuses..

As I have made clear on hundreds of posts over the years, Unions are blooding suckers that rarely accomplish much other than take hard earned money from the workers.. a case in point is American Airlines..

As for that supposed $4 billion being held by AMR, it is part of the bankruptcy info that has been filed with the courts.. it is included in the financial statements filed with them and even with them at the time of the filing


Since the $4.1 Billion is an asset it is already figured in the asset column.

Simple math shows..

+24.55
-29.55
=====
-4.83

That means AA is in the hole moron, even including the $4 billion your raving about.... without it it would be -$8,730,000,000 in the hole..

not counting this which adds even more to the debt....




http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-americanairlines-idUSTRE7AS0T220111130


Pardon me all to hell if I take the word of a federal bankruptcy Judge over the malarkey your union is feeding you..

Not to mention I have lots of friends that work for AA here in ELP, LAX as well as other airlines..SO while I may not have your union reps perspective I have theirs as well as what I do read in the papers .. I follow the aviation industry a lot and have worked at or near airports or dealt with the airlines in some manner for over 40 years..

While I feel sorry about what has happened at AA every airline has had to go through Bankruptcy at least once.. just so happens it was AA time..

I think most logical and reasonable posters get that your on the wrong end of this very crappy stick..





4 billion in assets are there..............the rest is shady accounting.

Every other airline who took paycuts is making money.

WE already gave enough, **** the share holders,,,,jobs are more importANT.


"Unions are blood suckers"...........saying this tells everyone here what an uneducated person you are. People died for workers rights and work rules that we have today.

ALL you need to know is we need unions to offset ass clowns like yourself who would **** every employee over.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQLsknPpjI

Watch this listen up......Bain capital is involved.

ASS clown like think its all labor's fault every time......your time will come.......karma


IF you wanna believe they are 8oo million in the hole fine...then tell me why they made the largest order of aircraft in history ?

Where did all that money come from ? Billions and billions ?

Seen AA lose 5oo million a year or make a billion..............so even if they were 800 million in the hole that is not an excuse to go to bankruptcy..............it was only to get concessions they wanted.

Your wrong, misinformed and telling a guy that worked there 23 years he doesn't know what going on inside his company ? labor hating ass...........you wanna blame it all on unions.

DID a union employee abuse you as a child ?

No where did I say it is all "labors" fault nor did I say it was the unions fault..

But like it or not the $4.1 Billion is part of the assets listed in the Bankruptcy filing..

It was not just laying around in the Board room, it was most likely used to make payroll.. since the airline seems not to be making money..

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)By Aaron Smith @CNNMoney April 19, 2012 -- The parent of American Airlines, which went into bankruptcy last year, announced a quarterly net loss of $1.7 billion on Thursday, slammed by reorganization costs and rising fuel prices.

The loss was more than quadruple the carrier's loss from a year earlier, when AMR Corp. reported a net loss of $405 million in the first quarter of 2011.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/19/news/companies/american-airlines/index.htm
july 2012
DALLAS — American Airlines is reaping higher fares and record revenue but still losing money.

AMR Corp. said Wednesday that it narrowed its second-quarter loss to $241 million mostly because of $230 million in costs tied to its bankruptcy restructuring. A year ago, it lost $286 million.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/jul/18/parent-of-american-airlines-reports-241-million/

fourth quarter 2011.


American Airlines Parent Reports Billion-Dollar Fourth Quarter Loss

By Kate Rice
February 16, 2012 12:42 PM



AMR, parent company of American Airlines, which filed for bankruptcy in November 2011, is reporting that it lost $1.1 billion in the fourth quarter. That compares with a $97 million loss a year earlier.2010 For the full year, American said it lost $2 billion, compared to a loss of $471 million in 2010.



http://www.travelpulse.com/american-airlines-parent-reports-billiondollar-fourth-quarter-loss.html#
third quarter 2011.

AMR Reports Third Quarter 2011 Results, Takes Action To Improve Financial And Operational Performance


AMR Corporation today reported a net loss of $162 million for the third quarter of 2011 compared to a net profit of $143 million for the same period of 2010. These results reflect the adverse impact of quarter-end volatility in WTI crude oil prices and foreign exchange rates (details in full release). Altogether, these items, which the Company described on Oct. 10, increased AMR’s net loss by approximately $50 million or 15 cents per share.

In the third quarter, the Company’s overall performance was negatively impacted by fuel prices, which increased 41 percent compared to the prior year period.


https://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsroom/fp_3q2011financials.jsp?v_locale=en_US&v_mobileUAFlag=AA

sorry amigo if you add up some of those loses I think you can probably see where that 4.1 Billion you had went..


the board had a responsibility to file for bankruptcy after the old guy kept driving the airline deeper and deeper into debt..

I know he was your unions hero but he would have killed AA..

as I have said several times I was a union member a couple of times before they passed right to work..

Each time I left a union I managed to negotiate better wages than the unions thought they could get.. Because I did not have a placard up my ass..

[houghtam]

No where did I say it is all "labors" fault nor did I say it was the unions fault..

Come on. You may not be saying it's all labor's fault, but you're being very disingenuous about it. You're implying it, by spending 95% of your posts prattling on about how unions are all bloodsuckers, yet offer little more than lip service to the other side. "Sure the CEO was crooked. ANYWAY, unionsunionsunionsunionsunionsunionsunions..."

My experience with unions has been considerably less problematic, and I would be surprised if you have more experience working with them than I do. Yes, there are problems with union management and union workers, but no more problems than with corporate management and corporate employees. It's because people run unions, and people join them. It's because people run companies and people are employed by them.

It's the same thing with faith or religion. The idea may be fine, but when you add people to the mix, you get corruption. The answer isn't just to get rid of the union or force them to bow to the corporation's demands anymore than the answer is to get rid of corporations or CEOs. Either solution is a stupid one that doesn't consider the reality of the situation.

Either side, if left unchecked, will use their power to make life better for themselves and worse the other side. That's why the existence of both sides is so important.

You can keep spouting off about how unions are bloodsuckers all you want. It doesn't make it true at all, and in my experience and in my professional opinion, unions perform just as valuable of a function as do corporations.

[lonestar]

Come on. You may not be saying it's all labor's fault, but you're being very disingenuous about it. You're implying it, by spending 95% of your posts prattling on about how unions are all bloodsuckers, yet offer little more than lip service to the other side. "Sure the CEO was crooked. ANYWAY, unionsunionsunionsunionsunionsunionsunions..."

My experience with unions has been considerably less problematic, and I would be surprised if you have more experience working with them than I do. Yes, there are problems with union management and union workers, but no more problems than with corporate management and corporate employees. It's because people run unions, and people join them. It's because people run companies and people are employed by them.

It's the same thing with faith or religion. The idea may be fine, but when you add people to the mix, you get corruption. The answer isn't just to get rid of the union or force them to bow to the corporation's demands anymore than the answer is to get rid of corporations or CEOs. Either solution is a stupid one that doesn't consider the reality of the situation.

Either side, if left unchecked, will use their power to make life better for themselves and worse the other side. That's why the existence of both sides is so important.

You can keep spouting off about how unions are bloodsuckers all you want. It doesn't make it true at all, and in my experience and in my professional opinion, unions perform just as valuable of a function as do corporations.


Well I worked for over twenty years for major company some of it in management and can say I have lots of experience with unions on both sides of the fence..

they rpomise folks everything and rarely ever get it for them..

Hell I sat in on one negotiation while I was in LA, management bought the union reps off getting very sweetheart deal by making sure they had prime parking spaces in the parking garage and instead of giving them compact cars they got full size units..

that was all the union reps wanted they could of cared less for the members they were getting $35 a month from...


In every case where I had to fire an employee the union contract made it much easier to do than the non union one.. and the union reps rarely ever disputed a firing..



so yes I have disdain for union officials and frankly anyone that thinks that unions got hem anything extra than what the company was going to give them in the first place is probably thinking there is still a Santa Claus..

In some cases they got less that what was budgeted..

I had a crew strike my operations in Syracuse NY was out for more than 3 weeks wound up settling for a nickle less an hour than the final offer was..

all the while the lost three weeks of wages.. and my business was never better .. had businessmen going out of their way to do business with us..

Yes I think union reps are blood suckers..

[houghtam]

Well I worked for over twenty years for major company some of it in management and can say I have lots of experience with unions on both sides of the fence..

they rpomise folks everything and rarely ever get it for them..

Hell I sat in on one negotiation while I was in LA, management bought the union reps off getting very sweetheart deal by making sure they had prime parking spaces in the parking garage and instead of giving them compact cars they got full size units..

that was all the union reps wanted they could of cared less for the members they were getting $35 a month from...


In every case where I had to fire an employee the union contract made it much easier to do than the non union one.. and the union reps rarely ever disputed a firing..



so yes I have disdain for union officials and frankly anyone that thinks that unions got hem anything extra than what the company was going to give them in the first place is probably thinking there is still a Santa Claus..

In some cases they got less that what was budgeted..

I had a crew strike my operations in Syracuse NY was out for more than 3 weeks wound up settling for a nickle less an hour than the final offer was..

all the while the lost three weeks of wages.. and my business was never better .. had businessmen going out of their way to do business with us..

Yes I think union reps are blood suckers..

So would you care to revise your statement that you don't think it's labor or unions' fault then? Because it sure seems to me they are the only ones you're blaming. At least then you'll only be incorrect, instead of being incorrect and a liar.

[lonestar]

So would you care to revise your statement that you don't think it's labor or unions' fault then? Because it sure seems to me they are the only ones you're blaming. At least then you'll only be incorrect, instead of being incorrect and a liar.

no think what you want.. I know what I know.. in this case AA was handled horribly for very long time with fat cat contracts that they could not possibly sustain.. Especially in todays market..

I also know that they would not have been granted bankruptcy if it was not true..

I'm going to sleep like a baby tonight..

[houghtam]

I'm going to sleep like a baby tonight..

If the shoe fits...

[lonestar]

If the shoe fits...

sorry I'm not sleeping in a shoe.. while I have big feet can't fit the whole body in one..



but good try..

[lonestar]

Southern Air Files For Bankruptcy Protection
September 28, 2012

US cargo airline Southern Air has applied for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, a court filing on Friday showed, as the company experienced cash shortages because of its deteriorating financial condition.

Southern Air's parent, Southern Air Holdings, said in a filing that as the financial situation continued to deteriorate "it became evident that secured debt and certain lease obligations must be restructured to address the situation."

Parent Southern Air Holdings has also filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

For the 12 months ended July 31 2012, Southern Air clocked up revenue of about USD$428.2 million and a net loss of USD$159.8 million. And on that date, the company had assets of about USD$206.9 million and liabilities of about USD$486.5 million.


read more at
http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348834694.html
much the same as AA.. in the hole assets to liabilities..

AA also needed to dump a bunch of old planes they had leased just like this company although AAs fleet is much older..


it was brought up in an earlier post that AA had bought new planes while in Bankruptcy it was necessary and HAD to have the JUDGE approve it..

their old fleet of MD80-88s sucked and were very fuel inefficient..

[Jetmeck]

read more at
http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1348834694.html
much the same as AA.. in the hole assets to liabilities..

AA also needed to dump a bunch of old planes they had leased just like this company although AAs fleet is much older..


it was brought up in an earlier post that AA had bought new planes while in Bankruptcy it was necessary and HAD to have the JUDGE approve it..

their old fleet of MD80-88s sucked and were very fuel inefficient..



Yepperr....plenty of dough for new planes but they are broke...not !

I work there for decades......................labor has already done there part.............talk to speculators and oil companies.

AA is not in the hole.................your wrong.

You don't have inside info.............

They got billions for aircraft but nothing for labor to keep them in the air ? Prob sounds right in your world..............

[Jetmeck]

no think what you want.. I know what I know.. in this case AA was handled horribly for very long time with fat cat contracts that they could not possibly sustain.. Especially in todays market..

I also know that they would not have been granted bankruptcy if it was not true..

I'm going to sleep like a baby tonight..



Here is the truth...........you don't know chit.

I work there and we gave up 18.5 % in wages and benefits for the last ten years.

Fat contracts for the largest order of aircraft in history but damn sure not labor.

Full of chit is what you are.

Bankruptcy courts almost always take the companies side.


Other airline employees took concessions and now they are profitable.

This is management failure but your labor, union hating ass will never admit it.

4 billion in cash and assets...............

I got my pension...................

[Jetmeck]

Well I worked for over twenty years for major company some of it in management and can say I have lots of experience with unions on both sides of the fence..

they rpomise folks everything and rarely ever get it for them..

Hell I sat in on one negotiation while I was in LA, management bought the union reps off getting very sweetheart deal by making sure they had prime parking spaces in the parking garage and instead of giving them compact cars they got full size units..

that was all the union reps wanted they could of cared less for the members they were getting $35 a month from...


In every case where I had to fire an employee the union contract made it much easier to do than the non union one.. and the union reps rarely ever disputed a firing..



so yes I have disdain for union officials and frankly anyone that thinks that unions got hem anything extra than what the company was going to give them in the first place is probably thinking there is still a Santa Claus..

In some cases they got less that what was budgeted..

I had a crew strike my operations in Syracuse NY was out for more than 3 weeks wound up settling for a nickle less an hour than the final offer was..

all the while the lost three weeks of wages.. and my business was never better .. had businessmen going out of their way to do business with us..

Yes I think union reps are blood suckers..



lies.....................pure and simple..............you think for one minute anybody believes a union employee is easier to fire than a non union
employee ? Just happens to be one of the founding principles of unionization.............you can't just fire someone arbitrarily.

ass clown idiot

[Jetmeck]

No where did I say it is all "labors" fault nor did I say it was the unions fault..

But like it or not the $4.1 Billion is part of the assets listed in the Bankruptcy filing..

It was not just laying around in the Board room, it was most likely used to make payroll.. since the airline seems not to be making money..


http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/19/news/companies/american-airlines/index.htm
july 2012


http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/jul/18/parent-of-american-airlines-reports-241-million/

fourth quarter 2011.



http://www.travelpulse.com/american-airlines-parent-reports-billiondollar-fourth-quarter-loss.html#
third quarter 2011.




https://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsroom/fp_3q2011financials.jsp?v_locale=en_US&v_mobileUAFlag=AA

sorry amigo if you add up some of those loses I think you can probably see where that 4.1 Billion you had went..


the board had a responsibility to file for bankruptcy after the old guy kept driving the airline deeper and deeper into debt..

I know he was your unions hero but he would have killed AA..

as I have said several times I was a union member a couple of times before they passed right to work..

Each time I left a union I managed to negotiate better wages than the unions thought they could get.. Because I did not have a placard up my ass..



Listen up asswipe, ever heard of a prospectus. ??

I am a shareholder and those numbers are bull****...............just like you.

[Jetmeck]

lonestar has an axe to grind over something...........

He is republican and even on labor issues he will lie to
try to make a point.

Bet he voted for Bush twice though he not man enough to admit it ?

Unions got us laws and work rules we all take for granted these days and they
prevent someone from firing you over nothing, in other words you get due process.

Without unions pay would be less and benefits as well.

If nothing else they are a force to be reckoned with in politics, a force that is on the working person's side.

Bet that last part pisses off lonestar's republican ass.

That force of labor and unions on the working person's side is winning the battle
even against the onslaught of money on the republican side with Adelman and Koch brothers.....bet that really really pisses lonestar off.............................


Eat it................jagoff

[Jetmeck]

Well I worked for over twenty years for major company some of it in management and can say I have lots of experience with unions on both sides of the fence..

they rpomise folks everything and rarely ever get it for them..

Hell I sat in on one negotiation while I was in LA, management bought the union reps off getting very sweetheart deal by making sure they had prime parking spaces in the parking garage and instead of giving them compact cars they got full size units..

that was all the union reps wanted they could of cared less for the members they were getting $35 a month from...


In every case where I had to fire an employee the union contract made it much easier to do than the non union one.. and the union reps rarely ever disputed a firing..



so yes I have disdain for union officials and frankly anyone that thinks that unions got hem anything extra than what the company was going to give them in the first place is probably thinking there is still a Santa Claus..

In some cases they got less that what was budgeted..

I had a crew strike my operations in Syracuse NY was out for more than 3 weeks wound up settling for a nickle less an hour than the final offer was..

all the while the lost three weeks of wages.. and my business was never better .. had businessmen going out of their way to do business with us..

Yes I think union reps are blood suckers..



Seriously anyone following along needs to read the above outrageous lies..............and realize who we are dealing with here.

Republican douche...........

[houghtam]

Seriously anyone following along needs to read the above outrageous lies..............and realize who we are dealing with here.

Republican douche...........

Yep. He called unions blood suckers, then claimed he never said they were the problem. When I called him out on it, he clammed up and just basically said "well I believe what I believe, and I'm right." Again, with no proof. But what do you expect from someone who wears a little yellow helmet on his way to his job taking tickets at the zoo.

[lonestar]

Here is the truth...........you don't know chit.

I work there and we gave up 18.5 % in wages and benefits for the last ten years.

Fat contracts for the largest order of aircraft in history but damn sure not labor.

Full of chit is what you are.

Bankruptcy courts almost always take the companies side.


Other airline employees took concessions and now they are profitable.

This is management failure but your labor, union hating ass will never admit it.

4 billion in cash and assets...............

I got my pension...................


no moron Bankruptcy courts do not always agree with the company if they are not bankrupt the court does not allow it..

I'm guessing you do not have a clue on the term so here it is..

bank·rupt
   [bangk-ruhpt, -ruhpt]
noun
1.
Law . a person/company who upon his or her own petition or that of his or her creditors is adjudged insolvent by a court and whose property is administered for and divided among his or her creditors under a bankruptcy law.
2.
any insolvent debtor; a person unable to satisfy any just claims made upon him or her.
3.
a person who is lacking in a particular thing or quality: a moral bankrupt.

since insolvent might be a big word for you

in·sol·vent
   [in-sol-vuhnt]
adjective
1.
not solvent; unable to satisfy creditors or discharge liabilities, either because liabilities exceed assets or because of inability to pay debts as they mature.
2.
pertaining to bankrupt persons or bankruptcy.

I understand you gave back 18.5% BFD the courts said in part that was not enough..


The $4.1 Billions is considered an asset and thus carried on that side of the ledger.. even with that IIRC AA was 4.8something in the hole IF they did not the $4.1 billion in the bank for expenses during Bankruptcy the judge may have just considered closing the company down all together and liquidating the assets to pay off creditors..

Yes it may be a management issue.. but that does not mean they will pay for the problem.. it means EVERYONE that is associated with them will get part of the blame..

it ahs been in the past labors fault for insisting on higher wages and benefits than the airline can afford IF they do not get it they strike which costs money so the airline bites the bullet knowing that somewhere down the line it will all come crashing down..

Now because 3 or more unions at AA are getting their employees to much money, the cost of fuel and not being able to buy new equipment (planes) because labor costs are to high it has reached a point that they had to go into bankruptcy because they were reaching a point that they spent more money than they had..

SO suppliers they owe or owed money to, employees shareholders are now going to get less then they were due..



the more I hear from you the more I think #3 above applies to you..

SO do you get it YET.. or are you going to think calling me a union hater will make it all right..

as for your pension the judge has not made that decision yet.. if the fund has ten million less than it is supposed to have it comes from somewhere..

probably another bailout from Nobama.. man what he won't do to get a vote..

[lonestar]

lies.....................pure and simple..............you think for one minute anybody believes a union employee is easier to fire than a non union
employee ? Just happens to be one of the founding principles of unionization.............you can't just fire someone arbitrarily.

ass clown idiot

It is easier to fire a union employee because it is all down on paper what they can and can not do the rules are clear..

follow the rules and give them the warnings and then fire them if they do it again..

with non union employees the rules are not always on paper and more warnings are given in most cases more time spent rehabilitating them .. nothing is black and white like it is with a union contract..

I have seen management bend over backwards to Not fire a marginal employee that is no union in hopes that it will keep union reps from attempting to organize them..

Not saying I have ever done that but I have seen it in the past.. Personally I liked union employees as I had a great contract and the union rep was a wuss..

I have never fired some one arbitrarily always had the facts cold.. most of the time the morons that though being union was great and could not be touched were the easiest to fire..

[houghtam]

It is easier to fire a union employee because it is all down on paper what they can and can not do the rules are clear..

follow the rules and give them the warnings and then fire them if they do it again..

with non union employees the rules are not always on paper and more warnings are given in most cases more time spent rehabilitating them .. nothing is black and white like it is with a union contract..

I have seen management bend over backwards to Not fire a marginal employee that is no union in hopes that it will keep union reps from attempting to organize them..

Not saying I have ever done that but I have seen it in the past.. Personally I liked union employees as I had a great contract and the union rep was a wuss..

I have never fired some one arbitrarily always had the facts cold.. most of the time the morons that though being union was great and could not be touched were the easiest to fire..

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

Where the hell have you worked? I'd like to put my resume in so I can teach them how to run a business. See, there's this thing called at-will employment. You can fire anyone for anything or no reason at all. Union employees are protected against at-will employment due to union contract negotiations. At-will employees, you can terminate..."at-will".

DERP.

Starting to think you've never spent a day in the workforce in your entire life.

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

[lonestar]

Seriously anyone following along needs to read the above outrageous lies..............and realize who we are dealing with here.

Republican douche...........

Not a lie in that statement..

I do not lie about things like that.

I do not have to..

I know what happens in negotiations I also know the tough talk they bring back to the working class because for the most part they are dumb enough to believe it..

as for me I'm a registered Democrat.. have been for decades.. does not mean I vote straight ticket like you do..

one of my friends is a Democrat State rep..

the best you have is calling me a Republican douche typical commentary from some one like you..

[lonestar]

Listen up asswipe, ever heard of a prospectus. ??

I am a shareholder and those numbers are bull****...............just like you.

well then explain how those number got reported i legit newspapers or financial journals..

someone just make those numbers up..

I quoted the sources..

IF they are not factual why is AA in bankruptcy?

ANYONE that clicks on the sources will figure out fast who is telling the truth..

Or maybe who knows more about it..

I have backed up each piece or comment with a url of a legit source..

night night

[Requiem]

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

Where the hell have you worked? I'd like to put my resume in so I can teach them how to run a business. See, there's this thing called at-will employment. You can fire anyone for anything or no reason at all. Union employees are protected against at-will employment due to union contract negotiations. At-will employees, you can terminate..."at-will".

DERP.

Starting to think you've never spent a day in the workforce in your entire life.

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

Dude is a ****ty used car/car repair salesman. Well, was -- until he couldn't manage his business and it went under.

[houghtam]

Not a lie in that statement..

I do not lie about things like that.

I do not have to..

I know what happens in negotiations I also know the tough talk they bring back to the working class because for the most part they are dumb enough to believe it..

as for me I'm a registered Democrat.. have been for decades.. does not mean I vote straight ticket like you do..

one of my friends is a Democrat State rep..

the best you have is calling me a Republican douche typical commentary from some one like you..

LOL this is too much. The guy who is anti-union, pro-life, and ultra-religious is a registered Democrat.

My ass.

And I was born in a manger to a virgin.

LOL what a ****ing fool you are.

[lonestar]

Yep. He called unions blood suckers, then claimed he never said they were the problem. When I called him out on it, he clammed up and just basically said "well I believe what I believe, and I'm right." Again, with no proof. But what do you expect from someone who wears a little yellow helmet on his way to his job taking tickets at the zoo.

now that is not entirely true..

here is the chain of posts..

So would you care to revise your statement that you don't think it's labor or unions' fault then? Because it sure seems to me they are the only ones you're blaming. At least then you'll only be incorrect, instead of being incorrect and a liar.



no think what you want.. I know what I know.. in this case AA was handled horribly for very long time with fat cat contracts that they could not possibly sustain.. Especially in todays market..

I also know that they would not have been granted bankruptcy if it was not true..

.

I hi-lighted the important parts since you did not get past "think what you want to think.".

I have also in many of my post said AA had other problems such as fuel, competing in markets with low cost airlines, old equipment (airplanes) and bad airport contracts..

But the major reason stated by the courts when they were granted bankruptcy was high labor costs since IIRC they are the second major expense on the ledger sheet NOW since fuel took over the top spot a few years ago..

So good try in not quoting me properly.. but anyone reading my posts with Jetmeck can plainly see that I have stated facts about AA and backed them up with quotes from actual financial periodicals or newspapers.. in some cases Reuters news agency..

so night night I have wasted enough time on this as it is..

Clearly you or Jetmeck are not rational about AA in bankruptcy..

[Requiem]

Lonestar go to bed.

[lonestar]

LOL this is too much. The guy who is anti-union, pro-life, and ultra-religious is a registered Democrat.

My ass.

And I was born in a manger to a virgin.

LOL what a ****ing fool you are.


so sorry that you feel the need to call names..

But I know lots of folks as hi-lighted above..

Not everyone in the Democratic party is a nut job.. there are lots of rel logical people in it..

Sorry to burst your bubble..

and I guess I need to pray to your father to reign you in a bit if you are who you say you are.. you my friend are out of control..

[houghtam]

Dude is a ****ty used car/car repair salesman. Well, was -- until he couldn't manage his business and it went under.

Because his employees kept taking advantage of him. "You know, I go into work everyday and don't do ****, and I overheard my boss saying he couldn't fire me because he didn't have clearly defined boundaries.

Meanwhile, people like me have fired countless employees because (and I quote), "it's just not a good fit." That's held up in unemployment hearings 100% of the time.

Seriously, I'd like to know where this douchnozzle has worked (if he's ever worked) so they can see what real management candidates look like.

LOL

[Requiem]

He was an unsuccessful businessman. Let's just put it that way. Dude couldn't sell dope to a crack fiend.

[houghtam]

He was an unsuccessful businessman. Let's just put it that way. Dude couldn't sell dope to a crack fiend.

Hmmm, no I'm thinking foreign exchange student with a less-than-ideal grasp of the English language and only a loose grip on reality.

...at-will employees harder to discipline than union employees. Whew, that was a good one. LOL

[lonestar]

American Airlines flight 443 has been grounded at Kennedy Airport, officials sayAn American Airlines flight headed to Miami had to return to Kennedy Airport Monday after some of the seats became loose on the plane, the second such incident on an American Airlines plane since the weekend.

American Airlines Flight 443 left Kennedy Airport at 7:11 a.m. and returned to the gate at 8:18 a.m., officials say. A second plane arrived to take the passengers to their destination, ultimately leaving JFK at 11:04 a.m. and landing in Miami at 2:19 p.m...

more at http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/American-Airlines-Loose-Seats-Kennedy-Airport-Miami-Flight-Returns-Emergency-Landing-172157101.html

let me add the news media in NYC Wabc 7 are speculating that it was sabotage of some sort..

both planes had been in for schedule maintenance not to long ago..

Both planes were Boeings 757s. The 757s that American operates in the United States have 22 first-class seats and 166 in economy.

The company said it has flown in engineers, tech crew chiefs and inspectors from its Tulsa maintenance base to New York to evaluate eight other Boeing 757s that may have the same seat

now the picture of the plane in the article is not a 757 but an MD 80 series..

[lonestar]

NOT AA

but still pertinent.. since AA is 10 billion in the hole for its pension funds..

The union said it was doing its due diligence and understood the seriousness of the pension shortfall.

"The current deficit - under normal funding requirements - has reached a level that threatens Air Canada's survival," the union said in a statement.

Air Canada's pension deficit stood at CAD$4.2 billion (USD$4.27 billion) as of January 1, largely because of extraordinarily low interest rates, and is widely viewed as an existential threat if the company were forced to fund the plan under normal rules.

[lonestar]

more on the AA seats issue..

"These things can kill an airline," said George Hobica, founder of travel website airfarewatchdog.com. "With a delay or cancellation, you're sitting on the ground. (With loose seats) if the plane hits turbulence, people go flying."

Henry Harteveldt, a travel industry analyst in San Francisco, said that if travelers perceive maintenance to be lax, "passengers will start booking away from American Airlines in droves. This is very serious stuff."

[lonestar]

American Air parent AMR loses $82M in August
Posted on September 27, 2012
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) — American Airlines parent AMR Corp. said Thursday that it lost $82 million in August, the tail end of the key summer travel season.
The figures don't include results for the rash of delayed and canceled flights that began in early September .

AMR ended August with $5.15 billion in cash and short-term investments including restricted amounts..


more at

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-09-27/american-air-parent-amr-loses-82m-in-august

[Requiem]

TLDR!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/254574_538465296178986_1722020034_n.jpg

[lonestar]

American Loses Bid To Block Union Vote
October 3, 2012


American Airlines lost a court battle in its effort to block a union election vote by nearly 10,000 passenger service agents.

Wednesday's decision by the 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans came amid a separate dispute between the airline's 8,000 pilots and its parent company, AMR. The pilots are expected to approve a strike later this week.


read more at..
http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349308346.html

if the pilots strike this company is in deep trouble..

management at this point can not sign contracts without the Judges approval.. which means the judge that voided the pilots contract will be the one that has to approve it which also means he almost has to negotiate it....

in essence means the Pilots may destroy the airline, if they do in fact do strike..

[lonestar]

American, Pilots Resume Contract Talks
October 4, 2012
Bookmark and Share

American Airlines and its pilots union resumed contract talks on Wednesday, but other problems continued to beset the bankrupt carrier.

A cockpit warning light caused an American flight to return to an airport shortly after takeoff on Tuesday, while a court said a union organizing drive at the airline could go forward and flight delays brought more customer complaints.

"I will never ride on American Airlines ever again," said Tony Palm, who was stranded when a connecting flight on American from Chicago to New York's LaGuardia airport was cancelled last month.

Palm, a recruiter for a small military contractor who lives in northern Virginia, said he had to wait three hours but eventually was able to get to New York on a flight with United Airlines.

Palm's frustration was shared by a growing number of customers who have suffered as the airline's on-time performance has dropped in recent weeks.

"American has delayed close to 2 million people in the last couple of weeks, and they've cancelled flights for 150,000 people," said Blake Fleetwood, president of CookTravel, an online travel agency. "That has an effect."

Fleetwood said some passengers have asked to be booked away from American Airlines flights. It's unclear how widespread the concern is, but postings on Twitter gave some idea of the concerns.

"Every single American Airlines flight out of Las Vegas is delayed!" said one tweet. "Dear American Airlines: Thanks for changing my flight without telling me. I know you don't agree, but some of us have schedules we try to keep," said another.

"American Airlines now charging passengers a USD$35 unbolted seat fee," joked a third.

see more at..

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349353712.html

[lonestar]

American To Secure Seats On 48 Planes
October 5, 2012


American Airlines warned of some flight delays and cancellations while it works to secure the seats on 48 of its Boeing 757 planes after some seats came loose earlier this week.

The company said on Thursday that it expects the enhancement of locking mechanisms used to secure the seats to aircraft floors to be completed by Saturday.

American said it is working with the US Federal Aviation Administration to resolve the issue, which started last Saturday after a row of seats came loose during a flight.

The flight delays follow a litany of disruptions at the airline, which is also grappling with staff unrest. American's pilots were expected to vote to approve a strike this week.
The average age of American's 757 fleet is 17 years, according to the company


read more at

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349447143.html

[lonestar]

American, Pilots Await Contract Ruling
October 10, 2012

The judge overseeing American Airlines' bankruptcy declined to rule on a pilots' appeal to preserve their old agreement, meaning the airline can continue making work changes while the two sides continue contract talks.

US Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane ruled last month that the airline could reject the previous agreement, which had been under negotiation since 2006.

At a hearing on Tuesday, Judge Lane declined to rule on the union's motion to suspend and did not set a date for a ruling on the issue.

AMR has been in bankruptcy since November, and through that process aims to find cost savings the airline says it needs to survive.



http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349867849.html

[Jetmeck]

American, Pilots Await Contract Ruling
October 10, 2012

The judge overseeing American Airlines' bankruptcy declined to rule on a pilots' appeal to preserve their old agreement, meaning the airline can continue making work changes while the two sides continue contract talks.

US Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane ruled last month that the airline could reject the previous agreement, which had been under negotiation since 2006.

At a hearing on Tuesday, Judge Lane declined to rule on the union's motion to suspend and did not set a date for a ruling on the issue.

AMR has been in bankruptcy since November, and through that process aims to find cost savings the airline says it needs to survive.



http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349867849.html



Great news for a non union whore such as yourself. Get busy spanking off.

[lonestar]

Great news for a non union whore such as yourself. Get busy spanking off.

Obviously some anger issues. Unable to carry on a conversation intelligently without calling names.

Ps I'm happily married. Only folks like yourself need to jerk off.

[lonestar]

American Extends Flight Schedule Cuts
October 11, 2012
Bookmark and Share

American Airlines said it will cut back on passenger capacity until mid-November, extending reductions from September and October as it cancelled hundreds of flights, citing aircraft maintenance issues and pilots reporting sick.

The carrier, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection last year, said in a memo to its managers that it was cutting its flight schedule until mid-November by 1 percent to give it more flexibility to organize crews and planes to return to a more normal pattern.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349994591.html

[lonestar]

AMR Seeks Extension Of Bankruptcy Plan Period
October 16, 2012
Bookmark and Share

American Airlines parent AMR on Tuesday asked a bankruptcy judge for a 30-day extension, to January 28, of its exclusive period to file a plan to exit bankruptcy.

In court papers filed jointly with its creditors' committee, AMR asked to extend the period during which creditors cannot pursue their own restructuring plans for the airline.

AMR declared bankruptcy last November amid high staff costs. It has said it wants to exit bankruptcy as a standalone firm. But smaller competitor US Airways is pushing hard to acquire AMR while it is still under Chapter 11 protection.

During so-called exclusivity periods, bankrupt companies retain control over proposing a plan to exit bankruptcy, and creditors are not allowed to pursue competing plans. In AMR's case, that means any acquisition plan involving US Airways or any other firm would require AMR's consent.

US Airways and several other firms recently signed non-disclosure agreements to explore various strategies for AMR to exit bankruptcy, including both merger and standalone options.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1350432398.html

rut ro..

[barryr]

Obviously some anger issues. Unable to carry on a conversation intelligently without calling names.

Ps I'm happily married. Only folks like yourself need to jerk off.

He's mad because he got hurt, probably while playing video games, and Obama didn't end up paying his medical bills like he promised :~ohyah!:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Unable to carry on a conversation intelligently without calling names.



Pot, meet kettle. :wave:

Of course, you can't carry on an intelligent conversation either with or without name-calling.

[barryr]

Pot, meet kettle. :wave:

Of course, you can't carry on an intelligent conversation either with or without name-calling.

Says cartoon boy, the happy liberal :giggle:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Says cartoon boy, the happy liberal :giggle:

If your best rebuttal to any given argument is "yew post cartoons!" then you have big problems (not that this is news to anyone.)

[lonestar]

Cartoon boi going at it again.

I guess when words fail you. You resort to YouTube

[lonestar]

AMR Reports USD$238 Million Q3 Loss
October 17, 2012


American Airlines parent AMR on Wednesday reported a third-quarter net loss of USD$238 million on worker severance and Chapter 11 costs.

The latest results were up from the from the USD$162 million reported a year ago and included USD$348 million in severance and reorganisation costs.

Revenue rose 0.8 percent to USD$6.43 billion. Operating expenses were up 0.6 percent, but fuel costs fell 3.3 percent.

Unit revenue, a key measure of pricing power, rose 4.3 percent from a year earlier at American and regional affiliates.
The company, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection last November and is evaluating a potential merger with rival US Airways, cited progress in reducing costs.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1350507131.html

[lonestar]

FWIW

Delta Posts Higher Quarterly Net Profit
October 24, 2012


Delta Air Lines announced a higher quarterly profit on Wednesday and indicated revenue trends looked to be improving following a soft September.

Delta had net income of USD$1.05 billion for the third quarter, compared with USD$549 million a year earlier.

Results included special items, such as a USD$440 million gain tied to fuel hedges that together added up to a USD$279 million gain.

Revenue rose 1 percent to USD$9.92 billion.

Delta said unit revenue would likely rise 4 percent to 5 percent in October after a 3 percent increase in the third quarter, driven by strength in business travel. The carrier added that it expects "robust" leisure traffic for the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays.

unlike AA losing $238,000,000.00

more at..http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1351119798.html

[houghtam]

Hey remember that one time lonestar said he was leaving and then didn't?

GTFO

[lonestar]

Hey remember that one time lonestar said he was leaving and then didn't?

GTFO

still a classy guy I see.:clown:

I started this thread and it is not political in nature.. so I will post in it from time to time..Ha!

Have you seen any posts in the other threads? I think not.. IN fact it took me a while to even find this thread.. All the while looking past all the the other threads started and have been posted..

[Jetmeck]

still a classy guy I see.:clown:

I started this thread and it is not political in nature.. so I will post in it from time to time..Ha!

Have you seen any posts in the other threads? I think not.. IN fact it took me a while to even find this thread.. All the while looking past all the the other threads started and have been posted..



What part of no way in hell AA is losing that kind of money and if they were it would be MANAGEMENTS FAULT as the employees have given back 18.5 % in wages and benefits in 03 .

If they are that bad at management then they should be fired. I gurantee you any company would love for their employees to give hundreds of millions a year to help save the company like that.

Management was and still is getting bonuses while we took pay cuts. Your gotta be some POS AA management clown to have the hard on for workers like you do.

Get it out get it off you low life empolyee/union hating scumbag. Your full of chit. That plain enuff for ya ?

Your don't know your ass from a hole in the ground on AA.

[Jetmeck]

I am evaluting taking a dump but it doesn't mean I will.........**** off lonestar.

[lonestar]

What part of no way in hell AA is losing that kind of money and if they were it would be MANAGEMENTS FAULT as the employees have given back 18.5 % in wages and benefits in 03 .

If they are that bad at management then they should be fired. I gurantee you any company would love for their employees to give hundreds of millions a year to help save the company like that.

Management was and still is getting bonuses while we took pay cuts. Your gotta be some POS AA management clown to have the hard on for workers like you do.

Get it out get it off you low life empolyee/union hating scumbag. Your full of chit. That plain enuff for ya ?

Your don't know your ass from a hole in the ground on AA.


Still see your having anger issues.

Let me be blunt since labor costs are the biggest expense at an airline out side fuel. If they are still losing money after you giving them back 18%. That just means they needed more than 18%.

Which sounds like what the judge will be doing when this is all said and done.

Along with other canceling of contracts and restucturing then the judge will turn the company back to management to run. But most likely you will be either US air or part of another airline and not AA, when it is all done. Another management team will be making the tough calls.

While I do not know your job I have been around airlines and airports for the better part of 40 years. I have seen other airlines go through bankruptcy and come out better for it.

But will tell you if USA takes you over it will be years before your running smoothly. And laugh this one off I'll be a shareholder. Ahahahahahahahaha

[lonestar]

I am evaluting taking a dump but it doesn't mean I will.........**** off lonestar.

Sounds like you are unable to make decisions, except being juvenile in expressing how you feel.

Some day the anger will go away and you will grow up.

But then someone of limited social skills who knows for sure.

[lonestar]

United Continental Scrapes Q3 Profit
October 25, 2012

United Continental, the world's biggest airline, posted a small quarterly profit as revenue fell and expenses rose.

Net income came to USD$6 million in the third quarter, down from USD$653 million a year earlier.



Revenue fell 2.6 percent to USD$9.91 billion. Unit revenue fell 1.3 percent.

Operating costs rose 5 percent, with fuel expenses up 1 percent.

The company, formed when United bought Continental Airlines in 2010, said it was out to win back customers who turned to competitors after technology changes hurt service and revenue performance over the summer.

United "clearly had a bad quarter operationally," said Avondale Partners airline analyst Fred Lowrance.

United Continental was the last of the major US carriers to report third-quarter results. Delta and US Airways posted higher earnings earlier this week and said revenue trends looked to be improving after a soft September.


Delta forecast a rise of 4 percent to 5 percent in October unit revenue. Southwest Airlines said last week its unit revenue was trending about 4 percent stronger for October compared with a year earlier.


United still has work to do to complete its merger.

Ray Neidl, an aerospace analyst with Maxim Group, cited the need for joint labour contracts among the unions that represented workers at the former Continental and United. The airline said on Thursday it expects to finalise contract language soon with its pilots.

"The longer this drags out, the longer it may take to realise the full benefits of the merger," Neidl said in a note to clients.

(Reuters)


Even the other two biggies made money unlike AA...

[ghwk]

Even the other two biggies made money unlike AA...

Hey what happened to your avi? How come txtebow has it now? You Texans sharing everything nowadays?

[Spider]

Lonestar ....

[houghtam]

Lonestar doesn't realize that "labor costs" includes management salaries as well.

[lonestar]

Lonestar doesn't realize that "labor costs" includes management salaries as well.

oh HOW wrong you are..

Having been in management for most of my career I know exactly how cost are accounted for..

In most companies LABOR expenses are the highest or second highest expenses on the P&L (that is Profit and Loss statement for you morons)..

Most airlines expenses are (now) fuel, equipment and labor with the later two duking it out for the #2 expense depending on the age of the airline....

Frankly I expected a tad more adult post from you as generally you have a clue.. But I guess you are playing to the rest of the liberal morons out there, by getting Juvenile and petty..

[lonestar]

Hey what happened to your avi? How come txtebow has it now? You Texans sharing everything nowadays?

Never had an avy as I find them juvenile, and a waste of band width.. I have them turned off because this site is slow at best loading..

SO anyone that has one I do not see. it..

Been think about turning off the ability to see pictures but then OU's pictures would not be seen.. ahahahahahahaha

[lonestar]

AMR CEO Updates Creditors on US Air Talks
November 15, 2012


The chief executive of bankrupt AMR, parent of American Airlines, told creditors that a merger with US Airways would need to result in creditors receiving a large share of equity in a combined airline for a deal to proceed, the Wall Street Journal reported.

Chief executive Tom Horton made the comments as part of an update on merger discussions during a gathering of the airline's official creditors committee, which holds sway over how AMR will exit bankruptcy, the Journal reported, citing people close to the discussions.

AMR declared bankruptcy last November. The company has said it must save more than USD$1 billion in staff costs to become profitable.

Horton expects American Airlines' creditors to receive more than 70 percent of the shares of a combined airline, the paper reported.



http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1352979492.html

rut ro long time AA folks about to be screwed again..

[chadta]

Having been in management for most of my career

That explains alot.

I always get a kick out of bad managers who blame everything on the guys who just show up to work and do what they are told.

Auto industry, it was the fault of the guy putting the right wheel on Cadilac Escalades fault that the company was losing money, it had nothing to do with a management decision to make big tanks that nobody wanted and not make little cars. Yup blame the guy putting the wheels on.

You can blame the crappy workers all you want, in some cases it may even be true, who hired them ? They didnt just so up and start work, a good manager can see and pick a good worker.

If you have a clue in the 90 day probation period you can see if the person is going to work out,(if you dont have a 90 day probation period where either party can terminate employment without reason I apologize) if you choose to keep them, you are responsible for whatever they may turn into, you failed, you should have seen it, thats on the manager, not the monkey pushing the broom.

[Jetmeck]

Lonestar finally admitted his true colors, the douche is likely AA management.

While we took 18% pay and benefit cut on 03 upper management was getting

BONUSES.................this ass clown will blame it all on labor though.


Romney and this clown come from the same mold.

[lonestar]

That explains alot.

I always get a kick out of bad managers who blame everything on the guys who just show up to work and do what they are told.

Auto industry, it was the fault of the guy putting the right wheel on Cadilac Escalades fault that the company was losing money, it had nothing to do with a management decision to make big tanks that nobody wanted and not make little cars. Yup blame the guy putting the wheels on.

You can blame the crappy workers all you want, in some cases it may even be true, who hired them ? They didnt just so up and start work, a good manager can see and pick a good worker.

If you have a clue in the 90 day probation period you can see if the person is going to work out,(if you dont have a 90 day probation period where either party can terminate employment without reason I apologize) if you choose to keep them, you are responsible for whatever they may turn into, you failed, you should have seen it, thats on the manager, not the monkey pushing the broom.

Explains what? that I do not overall like unions..

It is not because of not being able to fire bad employees in my past experience 98% of the time it made it easier and cleaner to get some one that did not do their job..

You are dead on about knowing which folks are going to work out and which are not and usually if your good that happens in the first few days certainly by 90 days..

But there are always a few that either sneak by or go bad after the fact.. Again in my experience those marginal employees are the ones that felt entitled after a relatively good career and just got lazy on the job..


Just like their are bad managers, same thing happens..

but my dislike for unions is IMO they have out lived their usefulness, they do not protect employees from bad management nor do they do again IMHO anything but suck money from those that do work hard.

there are enough federal and state laws the have the employes back protecting them against bad work place environments. Rarely does a union employee have any better benefits than do non union within the same company..

or for that matter more holidays, work hours, OT or DT provisions.. all of those things are covered by LAW enacted decades ago..

YES there was abuse centuries ago but not sure how that affects workers of today.. to many watch dog agencies as well as whistle blowers out there for a management team to do something stupid..

most management of today value the hard working employees.. are there some that do not sure but they will not be in business long anyway and a union will not stop that either.. IMO..

FWIW I was a union member for about ten years before getting into management.. that same union was voted out after I got into management when they figured out they were ineffective.. and a waste of their money..

Now talk to me about teachers unions protecting SOME folks that are not qualified to do Dog training and it is a totally different conversation..

let me say I have loads of respect for Teachers but their NEA and local unions in some areas are killing public respect for most that are great.. a few bad apples are killing them..

[lonestar]

Bondholder Group Says AMR Board Should Go
November 29, 2012


A group of some of bankrupt American Airlines' most significant bondholders said it will not support a standalone restructuring unless a new board is brought in, a move that may increase hurdles for chief executive Tom Horton and his team.

The 12-member bondholder group, which includes JPMorgan Chase, Pentwater Capital Management and York Capital Management, is the primary well-organised group to have expressed an interest in funding an independent exit for the airline's parent company AMR.

AMR filed for bankruptcy in November 2011, seeking to reduce costs.

Entities that gain a controlling equity stake in a company through bankruptcy routinely appoint new boards, and those boards do not necessarily oust the company's incumbent managers.

But AMR's current management team, led by Horton who is also chairman of the board, has lost the confidence of the company's unions, which support a takeover bid by smaller competitor US Airways.

The bondholders, who hold more than USD$700 million in AMR debt, said in the letter to Keith Wilson, president of American's pilots' union, its support for an independent exit was "conditioned, among other things, on that plan providing for the naming of a new board of directors."

It added that the new board would be selected with input from other shareholders.

That could include the pilots' union if the union votes to ratify a proposed contract offering it a 13.5 percent equity stake in the company, which means Horton's future at the company could depend on his ability to convince other shareholders of his team's leadership credentials.

"The board will... be responsible for selecting a management team," the bondholders said in the letter. "We expect the board to share our view that an important criteria for selecting the leader of that team will be a demonstrated ability to maximize shareholder value."

The letter, sent on November 15, was not public, but the Allied Pilots' Association made it available to its 8,000 members on Wednesday and reporters obtained a copy.

A spokesman for AMR declined to comment on Wednesday.

The circulation of the letter may also signal an attempt by the union to nudge its members toward ratifying the new contract proposed by AMR.

Resolving the bitter, years-long dispute between AMR and its pilots is a top priority for the company and its creditors, as AMR tries to convince investors of its long-term stability.

The bondholders' commitment to work cooperatively with shareholders "shows that APA's 13.5 percent equity claim is of critical importance in shaping what the new American Airlines will look like and who will lead it," the union said in a statement circulated to its members along with the letter.

A vote on the proposed contract is set for December 7.

(Reuters)


http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1354188475.html

[cutthemdown]

Being a pilot not the awesome job it used to be.

[cutthemdown]

The funniest post was the why do the judges get to just void a contract the company signed with the union? Thats not fair! LOL! What don't people understand about the term bankruptcy?

[cutthemdown]

Darn bankruptcy laws. If we get rid of those then all da union members get paid! HAHA!

[lonestar]

Being a pilot not the awesome job it used to be.

not the same as it was when Pan Am was flying but they are not over taxed..


can only work so many days in a row,
so many hours per day
so many hours a month..
they have mandatory rest of 8 hours after they reach their max hours per day.


lots of folks trying to get those airline jobs so not worried about it being job vacancies...

Not like stocking shelves at wal mart..

[lonestar]

The funniest post was the why do the judges get to just void a contract the company signed with the union? Thats not fair! LOL! What don't people understand about the term bankruptcy?

I can say I have yet to meet a union member that has a clue.. most are high level morons, especially those that really believe that unions can get them more than they could have.... that unions give them job security..

[lonestar]

now here is the height of unions stupidity..

American Flight Attendants To Join Merger Talks
December 21, 2012


The Association of Professional Flight Attendants union, which represents workers at American Airlines, said it had been invited to take part in confidential talks on a potential merger with US Airways.

The union said it signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) that will permit its involvement in discussions with the two airlines and American's unsecured creditors' committee.

"This non-disclosure agreement gives us further opportunity to affect the potential merger as we engage in direct and confidential discussions with key stakeholders," the flight attendants union said in a communications update.

"We know from previous major mergers that labour discussions like these were critical milestones," the union added. A spokeswoman for the Association of Professional Flight Attendants declined further comment.

American Airlines filed for Chapter 11 protection last year, and US Airways has been pursuing a merger with its larger rival for much of 2012.

Merger discussions among US Airways, AMR and its creditors are at an advanced stage, with a decision on whether to pursue a combination or emerge as an independent company expected as soon as January, people familiar with the matter have said.

Pilot unions at American and US Airways have also joined merger talks with AMR creditors and the companies.

The Allied Pilots Association, which represents American's pilots, said this week those talks were aimed at addressing merger-related concerns of both pilot groups and reaching a memorandum of understanding that would serve as an interim agreement while a merger is undertaken. The talks are continuing, an APA spokesman said on Thursday.

(R

why do I say that..

US Air merged with American West 6 or 7 years or more ago and the two different unions that represent each of the FA groups still has not been able to come to an agreement on how to merge the FAs into one working group..

Which means America West FA fly separately from US Air FAs.. they only work with FA from their former airline.. the seniority lists are separate and bidding for rotations are different.. different work rules apply and America West FAs do not work on USA planes and vice versa..

now another union is going to join this Disney parade..

let me add that within a year of the Delta and North West merger the FA groups were merged together..

of course that was because the NW union was voted out of the work place AND SANITY HAS PREVAILED....\\ ****ing unions..









whihc menad now that