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View Full Version : Wanted: Better UT v NT Understanding


RubberDuckie24
04-11-2012, 03:12 PM
So once again the Mane is in a frenzy over the general lack of defensive tackles on our roster, with many of overrun threads ending in this topic. I see the phrases UT/NT being tossed around a lot, and to be honest, I don't know what they are, what they mean, and what type of player fits in each role.

I was wondering if any of you would be willing to help enlighten me (and very well others) on the subject of defensive tackles, and if possible, where the Broncos stand with their current roster. :)

Swedish Extrovert
04-11-2012, 03:14 PM
NT is used primarily for eating up blocks... likely lining up next to Dumervil.

UT is the three-tech quicker and usually single teamed and used more in run stopping and pass rushing.

NTs are usually bigger, UTs are usually more athletic.

Edit - I misnamed the techniques. Other than that I hope this helps.

Swedish Extrovert
04-11-2012, 03:15 PM
I've always though of Ayers as more of a UT that is playing the DE position.

Right now the Broncos starting NT is Ty Warren and the starting UT is Vickerson.

McBean and Thomas are more UT material. Bannan kinda tweens between both, but will likely be used more as a NT.

crush17
04-11-2012, 03:17 PM
www.itsalloverfatman.com

Search the recent articles regarding DTs.

Its the "scouting the combine" series.

TheReverend
04-11-2012, 03:31 PM
NT is the three-tech and used primarily for eating up blocks... likely lining up next to Dumervil.

UT is quicker and usually single teamed and used more in run stopping and pass rushing.

NTs are usually bigger, UTs are usually more athletic.

No. Just no.

Requiem
04-11-2012, 03:33 PM
No. Just no.

. . . Mightysmurf fails again.

RubberDuckie24
04-11-2012, 03:34 PM
www.itsalloverfatman.com

Search the recent articles regarding DTs.

Its the "scouting the combine" series.

Thanks Crush.

So what does UT and NT stand for?

What does the "1,2,3,4,5 Technique" mean?

Why does one type of DT line up on a certain side? If NT are the ones requiring double teams, why not just have 2 NT's?

pricejj
04-11-2012, 03:43 PM
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-4-3-defensive-gaps-and-techniques-and-a-little-von-miller-too


Read this first.

TheReverend
04-11-2012, 03:47 PM
Thanks Crush.

So what does UT and NT stand for?

Under tackle (because he's "under" the tackle) and nose tackle.

What does the "1,2,3,4,5 Technique" mean?

Alignment in correspondence w/the OL's splits. Here's a pic:

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/695702/dtechniquealignments_medium.gif

^ the "i" means inside.

Why does one type of DT line up on a certain side? If NT are the ones requiring double teams, why not just have 2 NT's?

Some teams do that in "two gap" systems. Denver plays a "one gap" system, so our "traditional" NT isn't a traditional NT... he still plays the edge of the opposing OL instead of heads up.

Grover
04-11-2012, 03:53 PM
Another in depth article on gaps from It's All Over Fat Man.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-4-3-defensive-gaps-and-techniques-and-a-little-von-miller-too

gyldenlove
04-11-2012, 03:59 PM
Some teams do that in "two gap" systems. Denver plays a "one gap" system, so our "traditional" NT isn't a traditional NT... he still plays the edge of the opposing OL instead of heads up.

The Colts traditionally did this, they would have 2 big run stoppers line up in pretty traditional 4-3 front alignment but they were both tasked with covering 2 gaps against the run. Jim Bates runs a hybrid front where you have 2 nose tackles, however between them they only have to cover 3 gaps since you still have a power end on one side who is tasked with taking on the tackle.

Some 40 fronts use what could be called a traditional nose-tackle alignment with one tackle either in the 0 or 1 gap, either heads up on the center or on the shoulder of the center and the other will play the 3-gap on the shoulder of the guard. Other fronts are symmetric, especially these days where a lot of teams move their TEs around a lot, so the DTs will line up typically on each guard or on the inside shoulder of each guard.

Kaylore
04-11-2012, 04:00 PM
The nose tackle tackles people's noses.

The under tackle lives in the ground and is a zombie.

Thank you for your time.

Jay3
04-11-2012, 04:03 PM
Also, who's this guy Sam? He sounds pretty good.

Rohirrim
04-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Sam, Mike and Will walk into a bar...

Man-Goblin
04-11-2012, 04:06 PM
The nose tackle tackles people's noses.

The under tackle lives in the ground and is a zombie.

Thank you for your time.

Zombies don't "live" anywhere. They are dead.

Bronco Boy
04-11-2012, 04:08 PM
Zombies don't "live" anywhere. They are dead.

Actually they're undead.

schaaf
04-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Zombies don't "live" anywhere. They are dead.

Sit down and shut the **** up khan!!! Roasted

Requiem
04-11-2012, 04:17 PM
Sam, Mike and Will walk into a bar...

Don't forget Ted!

Rohirrim
04-11-2012, 04:33 PM
Don't forget Ted!

This is a 4-3 joke. :puff:

SonOfLe-loLang
04-11-2012, 04:44 PM
The nose tackle tackles people's noses.

The under tackle lives in the ground and is a zombie.

Thank you for your time.

Zombies dont live in the ground, DUH. Prarie Dogs do, though! Under tackles are prarie dogs.

Chris
04-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Actually they're undead.

If they're infected they're living.

DENVERDUI55
04-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Thanks Crush.

So what does UT and NT stand for?

What does the "1,2,3,4,5 Technique" mean?

Why does one type of DT line up on a certain side? If NT are the ones requiring double teams, why not just have 2 NT's?

I think Rev covered your answers well. Your third question is if you play a 2 gap system and your DT's are average to below average you will give up huge gains in the run game. Denver tried this under Bates a couple years ago and was a awful. The whole reason to one gap is to simplify the game and try to cover up some talent lacking in the overall front 7.

Rabb
04-11-2012, 04:56 PM
. . . Mightysmurf fails again.

Hilarious!

delany
04-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Amost no one on this site would have referred to a DT in an even front as a NT prior to last year.

Now, as Duckie pointed out, you trip over UT/NT references in almost any defensive related thread.

pricejj
04-11-2012, 06:03 PM
Amost no one on this site would have referred to a DT in an even front as a NT prior to last year.

Now, as Duckie pointed out, you trip over UT/NT references in almost any defensive related thread.

Prior to last year the Broncos we're running a 3-4 with McDaniels. Prior to that, in 2008 we were running with Slowik (et al.) Under Shanahan, we we're into Offense, ZBS, the bootleg, and how to improve red-zone scoring.

While switching to a 3-4, IAOFM (and other media outlets) started putting out a bunch of information, schooling us all about Defense...at least that's how I learned. We have all learned quite a bit about Defense in the last 4 years.

Don't hate, appreciate. :sunshine:

Mediator12
04-11-2012, 06:35 PM
The Colts traditionally did this, they would have 2 big run stoppers line up in pretty traditional 4-3 front alignment but they were both tasked with covering 2 gaps against the run. Jim Bates runs a hybrid front where you have 2 nose tackles, however between them they only have to cover 3 gaps since you still have a power end on one side who is tasked with taking on the tackle.

Some 40 fronts use what could be called a traditional nose-tackle alignment with one tackle either in the 0 or 1 gap, either heads up on the center or on the shoulder of the center and the other will play the 3-gap on the shoulder of the guard. Other fronts are symmetric, especially these days where a lot of teams move their TEs around a lot, so the DTs will line up typically on each guard or on the inside shoulder of each guard.

The Colts did what? I believe you are mistaking that. Indy has been a one gap cover 2 base defense since before Dungy. After he was there, they definitely have been a one gap under, over, and over stem front. They were the same under Coyer and Caldwell too.

RunSilentRunDeep
04-11-2012, 07:02 PM
If you have UT, then take penicillin. If you have NT, call tech support. If you have DT, throw it fricking deep.

Taco John
04-11-2012, 07:03 PM
The nose tackle tackles people's noses.

The under tackle lives in the ground and is a zombie.

Thank you for your time.


Ian Gold was a Nose Tackle.

Taco John
04-11-2012, 07:07 PM
Amost no one on this site would have referred to a DT in an even front as a NT prior to last year.

Now, as Duckie pointed out, you trip over UT/NT references in almost any defensive related thread.


Not true. Discussions around NTs started to take prominence here the first year McDaniels was hired and there was talk of switching to the 3-4. You're correct, however, that references to UTs have picked up.

Jay3
04-11-2012, 07:21 PM
Amost no one on this site would have referred to a DT in an even front as a NT prior to last year.

Now, as Duckie pointed out, you trip over UT/NT references in almost any defensive related thread.

The little known Tebow Effect rears its head again.

Bmore Manning
04-11-2012, 08:02 PM
The Colts did what? I believe you are mistaking that. Indy has been a one gap cover 2 base defense since before Dungy. After he was there, they definitely have been a one gap under, over, and over stem front. They were the same under Coyer and Caldwell too.

Indy ran no versions of over or under and not even cover two 4-3 base which is also Chicago Bears style man to man corner press D.

Indy ran all dreadful Tampa Two zone corners, bubble Mike and cover shell safeties...

Your right about cover two, but it was Tampa two, which is all zone..

TheReverend
04-11-2012, 08:03 PM
Indy ran no versions of over or under and not even cover two 4-3 base which is also Chicago Bears style man to man corner press D.

Indy ran all dreadful Tampa Two zone corners, bubble Mike and cover shell safeties...

Your right about cover two, but it was Tampa two, which is all zone..

Oh lawd...

Hilarious!

Requiem
04-11-2012, 08:04 PM
Mediator is not going to like Bmore Manning. Not one bit.

TheReverend
04-11-2012, 08:05 PM
No one is going to like Bmore Manning. Not one bit.

Fixed

Bmore Manning
04-11-2012, 08:11 PM
WTF, you guys have problems man. Indy played strictly all zone, everyone hated it. They were the most un creative defense in football. You guys need to lighten up.

DENVERDUI55
04-11-2012, 08:47 PM
Indy ran no versions of over or under and not even cover two 4-3 base which is also Chicago Bears style man to man corner press D.

Indy ran all dreadful Tampa Two zone corners, bubble Mike and cover shell safeties...

Your right about cover two, but it was Tampa two, which is all zone..

Wow that's all.

Swedish Extrovert
04-11-2012, 09:28 PM
. . . Mightysmurf fails again.

Jeez, asshole. I meant to put 3-tech under UT. honest mistake.

Everything else in that post is sound.

Bronco Boy
04-11-2012, 10:35 PM
So we haven't really learned anything new in this thread. We all still know that smurf and bmore don't know what they're talking about and Med does. So move along.

Kaylore
04-11-2012, 11:06 PM
So we haven't really learned anything new in this thread. We all still know that smurf and bmore don't know what they're talking about and Med does. So move along.

You know what? You can piss off! I think I spelled everything out pretty clearly. I admit, there is some gray area as to weather an under tackle is a zombie or a prairie dog, but at the end of the day it's all there.

And don't forget that Tampa 2 isn't a zone defense. Everything you learned in school was wrong!

Archer81
04-11-2012, 11:57 PM
If they're infected they're living.


They were infected while alive. The virus reanimates them and drives them to eat more grey matter to keep the virus alive. That's all the virus cares about. Making more virus. If it could care. Which would require higher level brain functions...but maybe that's why they infect people? To get what they are missing?

Are viruses even a "they"? Are they aware? Are there T and G versions?

:Broncos:

Archer81
04-11-2012, 11:59 PM
Not true. Discussions around NTs started to take prominence here the first year McDaniels was hired and there was talk of switching to the 3-4. You're correct, however, that references to UTs have picked up.


Actually...I would go further back. Do you not remember the Pope/Mallard/Fatafehi terror that was the middle of the Broncos defense?

Its an ancient pain, the Broncos DT position. I think Trevor Pryce cursed it.

:Broncos:

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 05:50 AM
So we haven't really learned anything new in this thread. We all still know that smurf and bmore don't know what they're talking about and Med does. So move along.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/11/fantasy-defensive-personnel-packages--part-1/

Actually I am right!

Indy ran the Tampa 2 base D over 60% of the time, the rest of the time they were in dime and nickel packages!
They never were creative, I would think I would know Indy pretty well.
Mediator is one of my favorite posters, but Indy did not run a 5-2 (4-3 Under) Front or the 4-3 Over. Everynow and again they would stunt their DTs, their LBs didn't blitz!

The data backs up what I claim! Who's ****ing wrong now

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 05:51 AM
Wow that's all.

Is that sarcasm? See link if you too doubt me.

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 05:53 AM
You know what? You can piss off! I think I spelled everything out pretty clearly. I admit, there is some gray area as to weather an under tackle is a zombie or a prairie dog, but at the end of the day it's all there.

And don't forget that Tampa 2 isn't a zone defense. Everything you learned in school was wrong!

Tampa 2 isn't Zone D?
All 4 DBs in a zone, and the Mike in a zone... But it's not a zone D right?

alkemical
04-12-2012, 05:58 AM
They were infected while alive. The virus reanimates them and drives them to eat more grey matter to keep the virus alive. That's all the virus cares about. Making more virus. If it could care. Which would require higher level brain functions...but maybe that's why they infect people? To get what they are missing?

Are viruses even a "they"? Are they aware? Are there T and G versions?

:Broncos:

...So the virus is DNA?

Kaylore
04-12-2012, 06:38 AM
Tampa 2 isn't Zone D?
All 4 DBs in a zone, and the Mike in a zone... But it's not a zone D right?

I'm just making crap up about defenses. Isn't that what you are doing?

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 07:01 AM
I'm just making crap up about defenses. Isn't that what you are doing?

No I'm not making anything up, that's not what I do.
Do you insult people to make yourself feel better is that what you do?

socalorado
04-12-2012, 07:11 AM
No I'm not making anything up, that's not what I do.
Do you insult people to make yourself feel better is that what you do?

http://www.guitarforworship.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Ron-Burgundy-in-a-Glass-Case-of-Emotion.png

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 07:34 AM
http://www.guitarforworship.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Ron-Burgundy-in-a-Glass-Case-of-Emotion.png

Lol.. What does Baxter have to do with this?

DENVERDUI55
04-12-2012, 07:56 AM
Tampa 2 isn't Zone D?
All 4 DBs in a zone, and the Mike in a zone... But it's not a zone D right?

You act like you know what you are talking about but you don't. Your are acting like base frobts over/under iare coverage. Cover 2 Tampa or not can be run out of various fronts.

bendog
04-12-2012, 08:31 AM
Not all NT's are created equal.

Mediator12
04-12-2012, 08:40 AM
Not all NT's are created equal.

Absolutely. There is a huge difference in 3-4 NT and 4-3 NT. The rare guy, read top 10 pick, is versatile enough to do both jobs equally well.

The 4-3 NT has to be quick enough to attack gaps off the LOS and penetrate to attempt to make a play. The Double teams he faces are as he shoots a gap. He is a playmaker on the run, and not an occupier for the LB to make plays.

The 3-4 NT has to find the ball and determine which way its going before reacting to the play. He controls both A gaps initially and takes the play side gap while the Center holds him up before either G takes his shoulder. These guys are the true run cloggers whose job is not to get pushed off the LOS in their gap and to take on double teams without losing ground or getting washed out of the play.

TheReverend
04-12-2012, 08:46 AM
Absolutely. There is a huge difference in 3-4 NT and 4-3 NT. The rare guy, read top 10 pick, is versatile enough to do both jobs equally well.

The 4-3 NT has to be quick enough to attack gaps off the LOS and penetrate to attempt to make a play. The Double teams he faces are as he shoots a gap. He is a playmaker on the run, and not an occupier for the LB to make plays.

The 3-4 NT has to find the ball and determine which way its going before reacting to the play. He controls both A gaps initially and takes the play side gap while the Center holds him up before either G takes his shoulder. These guys are the true run cloggers whose job is not to get pushed off the LOS in their gap and to take on double teams without losing ground or getting washed out of the play.

You should add a disclaimer that this is far from always the case before people blanket apply it to any and all 4-3 and 3-4 defenses

Mediator12
04-12-2012, 09:03 AM
You should add a disclaimer that this is far from always the case before people blanket apply it to any and all 4-3 and 3-4 defenses

I think you just did ;D

However, those are the skillsets and primary roles of the different NT types. In the NFL, there are always exceptions. Jay Ratliffe in Dallas plays a 3-4 NT in a One gap attacking scheme, so he is more skilled like a 4-3 NT or even under tackle IMHO. Not too many, one gap 3-4's out there, but there are a few.

TheReverend
04-12-2012, 09:16 AM
I think you just did ;D

However, those are the skillsets and primary roles of the different NT types. In the NFL, there are always exceptions. Jay Ratliffe in Dallas plays a 3-4 NT in a One gap attacking scheme, so he is more skilled like a 4-3 NT or even under tackle IMHO. Not too many, one gap 3-4's out there, but there are a few.

Anywhere Wade goes :)

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 09:20 AM
You act like you know what you are talking about but you don't. Your are acting like base frobts over/under iare coverage. Cover 2 Tampa or not can be run out of various fronts.

Maybe you need to read what the 4-3 Under and Over are to understand their purposes. Those are variations on the 4-3, they are not variations of the Tampa 2. The Tampa 2 is ZONE CBs with shell safeties over the top to prevent the big play. The Mike is in a soft drop zone. OLBs are in man.. It relies on pressure from just the front 4 DL.

You do not know what the Tampa 2 is if you think their are variations where a DE drops into coverage or a LB blitzes.. That's clearly not the Tampa Two. It's a plain vanilla Defense!

Kaylore
04-12-2012, 09:49 AM
No I'm not making anything up, that's not what I do.
Do you insult people to make yourself feel better is that what you do?

I never insulted you. I thought we were playing a game and wanted to play too. I'll leave you alone. I can see you have everything handled. My bad. :)

bendog
04-12-2012, 09:53 AM
I was trying to lighten it up. The guy asked a fair question, and yeah smurf fell into it.

I'd typed something longer, but managed to 'make it go away,' and maybe someone knows how to search the "it's all over fatman' site, where there's been stuff. And, we've had threads here. But, going out on limb, while Del Rio has possibly used other schemes at times, what we'll most likely be seeing is:

One large DT who can play the A gap on one of the two sides of the center, between center and guard. An athlete who can do this, and consistently split the gap with two men blocking him is a Suh type athlete, and that's not gonna happen for us. Therefore, most mock drafts show Den taking one in the second or even latter rounds. But to be clear, we’re talking a guy who plays ONE gap, not Two gaps.

A smaller DT (Trevor Pryce like) who can play one of the B gaps (between a guard and tackle) and get penetration. Three guys project to go around when Den picks who supposedly fit this need. We can discuss this further, but basically this guy is only going to face one on one blocking by one guard, so he's got to have some "nimble factor" but he doesn't have to be a freak like suh or a Fat Albert Haynesworth before he got fat.

DENVERDUI55
04-12-2012, 10:37 AM
Maybe you need to read what the 4-3 Under and Over are to understand their purposes. Those are variations on the 4-3, they are not variations of the Tampa 2. The Tampa 2 is ZONE CBs with shell safeties over the top to prevent the big play. The Mike is in a soft drop zone. OLBs are in man.. It relies on pressure from just the front 4 DL.

You do not know what the Tampa 2 is if you think their are variations where a DE drops into coverage or a LB blitzes.. That's clearly not the Tampa Two. It's a plain vanilla Defense!

Where did I saw anything about zine blitzing and Tampa 2? You need to learn the difference in front lining up and coverage. I can play cover 2 out of either a under or over technique. Tampa 2 means MLB has mid to deep center. You have said enough on this thread to show you have no concept of differnce in coverage and front.

broncocalijohn
04-12-2012, 10:37 AM
. . . Mightysmurf fails again.

Smurf must have been typing in that post at a night club. Would that be considered post blocked?

Rohirrim
04-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Anywhere Wade goes :)

I thought Wade was a 5-2 man?

TheReverend
04-12-2012, 10:43 AM
I thought Wade was a 5-2 man?

Almost. His 34 is identical to a 43 under which is as close to a 52 as you can get after high school.

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 10:52 AM
Where did I saw anything about zine blitzing and Tampa 2? You need to learn the difference in front lining up and coverage. I can play cover 2 out of either a under or over technique. Tampa 2 means MLB has mid to deep center. You have said enough on this thread to show you have no concept of differnce in coverage and front.

Where did I say anything about a zone blitz? I know the difference in front lining and coverage. I corrected something about what Indy
Does and doesn't do on D and u jumped all over me like everyone else.
The over and under represent shifts to either the weak or strong side and varries gap integrity of the DEs. Trust me Indy did not really do this..

In addition..
The Under blitzes the Sam like Denver does.
And both have their advantages/disadvantages against the run and pass.

Mediator12
04-12-2012, 11:51 AM
Where did I say anything about a zone blitz? I know the difference in front lining and coverage. I corrected something about what Indy
Does and doesn't do on D and u jumped all over me like everyone else.
The over and under represent shifts to either the weak or strong side and varries gap integrity of the DEs. Trust me Indy did not really do this..

In addition..
The Under blitzes the Sam like Denver does.
And both have their advantages/disadvantages against the run and pass.

Answer me one question before I blow you out of the water.

What fronts did INDY use? Tony Dungy certainly said it was 4-3 over and under. I really want to hear this.

vancejohnson82
04-12-2012, 11:55 AM
Answer me one question before I blow you out of the water.

What fronts did INDY use? Tony Dungy certainly said it was 4-3 over and under. I really want to hear this.

I can picture you foaming at the mouth right now

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Answer me one question before I blow you out of the water.

What fronts did INDY use? Tony Dungy certainly said it was 4-3 over and under. I really want to hear this.

Tampa Two 4-3. I don't care what you look up online I watched all their games.
They play over 60% of their snaps in their base Tampa 2. With their corners playing a soft zone. Safety play over the top, the Mike dropping into a shallow zone.

There was not blitzing from the Sam like in a 4-3 Under 5 man front like Denver utilizes. So sliding Freeney and Mathis inside to play in those formations was not used with their horrible abilities against the run. They were in wide 9 sets. So while they may have slid to the stron or weak side occasionally with different personnel on the field for certain situations, they operated out of majority wide 9 with Freeney and Mathis.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/11/fantasy-defensive-personnel-packages--part-1/

http://footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=167

Don't come at me like a bad ass, we can talk about this. And tell me that you "blow me out of the water" as you said. I even said your one of my favorite posters, nothing I did was a knock on you.

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Why is this not allowing me to say blow, it's saying love and it keeps saying kiss.. Wtf?

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 12:20 PM
For the record it's not allowing me to repeat what you said its saying kiss and love, which you didn't say, nor am I saying it to you.

Requiem
04-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Yawn. *deletes Bmore Manning*

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 12:24 PM
Yawn. *deletes Bmore Manning*

Whatever bro.

Bronco Boy
04-12-2012, 12:25 PM
Don't come at me like a bad ass, we can talk about this. And tell me that you "kiss me, and tell me that you love me out of the water" as you said. I even said your one of my favorite posters, nothing I did was a knock on you.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m08nta7NM21qdlh1io1_400.gif

bendog
04-12-2012, 12:26 PM
I have no idea what fronts Dungy used in Indy, but I can assure you that you should prepare your asshole.

bronco militia
04-12-2012, 12:47 PM
LOL...has anyone let Bmore know Meds credentials?

Drek
04-12-2012, 12:58 PM
Why is this not allowing me to say blow, it's saying love and it keeps saying kiss.. Wtf?

Incredibly sensitive language filter.

Also, Med REALLY knows the Colts dude. Your comments are like a freshman talking **** to a PhD in physics about how special relativity is bull****.

bendog
04-12-2012, 01:01 PM
I still think a certain DCoord got unfairly graded in using the big nickle to try and slow down a certain qb. And a certain head coach had a penchant for making first round reaches on players including corners. And a certain former d-lineman royally jacked Den's cap situation with a huge new contract followed by never showing up in the playoffs.

And as a result, I had to switch from non-alc beer to a case of budweiser and I haven't been sober again since.

bendog
04-12-2012, 01:18 PM
So once again the Mane is in a frenzy over the general lack of defensive tackles on our roster, with many of overrun threads ending in this topic. I see the phrases UT/NT being tossed around a lot, and to be honest, I don't know what they are, what they mean, and what type of player fits in each role.

I was wondering if any of you would be willing to help enlighten me (and very well others) on the subject of defensive tackles, and if possible, where the Broncos stand with their current roster. :)

http://football.about.com/cs/a/over43defense.htm

This is an oversimplification, but it may help. And, to be honest, until they inserted Tebow, I didn't waste my time watching the cluster*** Bowlen put out. But, what u might want to do is look into NFL.com's rewind, which for 50 bucks a season lets you "rewatch" any game and you can rewind it to watch any play over and over. I used to do this with vcr and you probably can do it with tivo if you get live games.

My recollection is that Fox used both over and under formations, but I could be wrong.

Also,

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/guide-to-n-f-l-defenses-part-2-evolution-of-4-3-front/

The last diagram on this page is the miami (or jimmy johnson) 4-3 seems close to what I saw from Fox ... except the Sam (Miller) was up closer to the line off the TE's outside shoulder.

HOWEVER, Fox and Allen fiddled with it. Ayers came inside on passing downs and Miller played DE. They didn't really have a prototypical NT, and certainly didn't want a 330 pound fatty on passing downs. The linebackers were not always in the same positons. Mays is in many was a two down linebacker.

You can google John Fox defensive scheme and find stuff.

Mediator12
04-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Tampa Two 4-3. I don't care what you look up online I watched all their games.
They play over 60% of their snaps in their base Tampa 2. With their corners playing a soft zone. Safety play over the top, the Mike dropping into a shallow zone.

There was not blitzing from the Sam like in a 4-3 Under 5 man front like Denver utilizes. So sliding Freeney and Mathis inside to play in those formations was not used with their horrible abilities against the run. They were in wide 9 sets. So while they may have slid to the stron or weak side occasionally with different personnel on the field for certain situations, they operated out of majority wide 9 with Freeney and Mathis.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/11/fantasy-defensive-personnel-packages--part-1/

http://footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=167

Don't come at me like a bad ass, we can talk about this. And tell me that you "kiss me, and tell me that you love me out of the water" as you said. I even said your one of my favorite posters, nothing I did was a knock on you.

Indy has never used the wide 9 front in 15 years. They use the nine technique rush occasionally, but the wide nine front includes having your DE's in a four point stance. They never did that. It also means the DE's are playing outside the TE or TE on air. Indy played Freeney in a loose 5 tech, not a nine. They played Mathis in 5 tech or 6 tech if they played over stem. That is the alignment for DE's in Over and Under Fronts.

The Over front simply means the UT is slid toward the TE in a 3 tech usually. The under means the UT is slid away from the TE in a 3 Technique. Anyone who knows football knows that those are the basic fronts for one gap 4-3 defenses.

Especially, for the Cover 2 base that Chuck Knox taught Dungy, and Dungy and Kiffin refined in TB. The cover 2 base fronts are also has the exact same fronts as running the Tampa 2 Coverage variation. The only difference is in coverage that the Mike Carries the deep seams making it a 4 under 3 deep hybrid in coverage. That you think those are distinct fronts is troubling to me.

Rohirrim
04-12-2012, 02:18 PM
Good ole "Ground" Chuck Knox. Those were some good Rams defenses he put together, back in the day.

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 02:23 PM
Hey Drek, I followed every Indy game for 14 years.. I may have a decent idea myself.

Med, I'm not trying to compete with you, we are going to have to agree to disagree. My eyes over 14 years, and the stats I sent you are meaningless to you, and I understand fronts to know what your saying and what I'm saying.

It's unfortunate 2 posters I really like Drek and Med.. Feel I don't know what I am talking about or that I am trying to compete.
I'd rather bounce ideas off of each other than argue...

TheReverend
04-12-2012, 02:27 PM
Hey Drek, I followed every Indy game for 14 years.. I may have a decent idea myself.

Med, I'm not trying to compete with you, we are going to have to agree to disagree. My eyes over 14 years, and the stats I sent you are meaningless to you, and I understand fronts to know what your saying and what I'm saying.

It's unfortunate 2 posters I really like Drek and Med.. Feel I don't know what I am talking about or that I am trying to compete.
I'd rather bounce ideas off of each other than argue...

That's well and good, but when the idea you're bouncing off is "The sky is red", well it's just not worth ****.

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 02:49 PM
That's well and good, but when the idea you're bouncing off is "The sky is red", well it's just not worth ****.

That's an over dramatization..

Cito Pelon
04-12-2012, 04:14 PM
Hey Drek, I followed every Indy game for 14 years.. I may have a decent idea myself.

Med, I'm not trying to compete with you, we are going to have to agree to disagree. My eyes over 14 years, and the stats I sent you are meaningless to you, and I understand fronts to know what your saying and what I'm saying.

It's unfortunate 2 posters I really like Drek and Med.. Feel I don't know what I am talking about or that I am trying to compete.
I'd rather bounce ideas off of each other than argue...

You keep on contributing, that's fine with me. Some people here thought Jim Bates had the right plan and Jarvis Moss had the best first step on the team. Those people still think they know all about defense, so anything you contribute can't be worse than that.

errand
04-12-2012, 05:10 PM
You keep on contributing, that's fine with me. Some people here thought Jim Bates had the right plan and Jarvis Moss had the best first step on the team. Those people still think they know all about defense, so anything you contribute can't be worse than that.

...agree 100%. And yet amazing not a ****ing one of them works in the NFL......go figure.

DBroncos4life
04-12-2012, 06:25 PM
...agree 100%. And yet amazing not a ****ing one of them works in the NFL......go figure.

You know what is funny is I've always thought the NFL was just as much who you know then what you know. It's almost as bad as politics in my mind. I'm sure there are posters on here more qualified to coach or work for a NFL team then Ben McDaniels was. I'm willing to bet the NFL is loaded with guys just like him at all levels of NFL teams. Hell the Ryan boys have been living off of daddy's rep for years now.

iforgotmypassword
04-12-2012, 07:28 PM
There really are a lot of dicks on here Bmore.... Half the posters on here get a little moist every time they're the first person to either post a Lombardi trophy at the beginning of a thread or when they pull the most hilarious quip ever... "he'd bust 2k in our system"... all the while never giving any sort of insight and attacking anybody who tries to say something. There's some good posters though, should have been around for the days of wabbit and bronco yoda. Great posters.

To answer the original posters question in a way I don't think has been said yet....

The NFL has trends, 3-4 to 4-3 and back again is the most common one. But when looking at DT there are trends also. You ask why don't teams just run two NT's? The league went to that for awhile, the pioneers of that Defense go by the name of the 2000 Baltimore Ravens. They had Sam Adams the Goose in the middle as you probably remember. Many teams followed, including us...Chester McGlockon and Lional Dalton, Pryce was playing DE....... and then the league changed, for the same reason we changed. A team we know as the Indianapolis Colts, following the Colts lead the league transitioned into more of a passing league. Your never going to stop Manning/Brady/etc by having zero penetration in the middle. I see the league transitioning even farther and trying to copy the Giants.... basically no UT/NT just freak athletes. Once they do this offenses will probably start running again.....

Anyways, my two cents.... let's see how much crap I get for trying to give my answer to a post.

cutthemdown
04-12-2012, 07:33 PM
The Broncos need to be trend setters and not followers. You do that by just picking great football players, then letting them play. You can't copy the Giants. They did what they did because those were the best players on defense they had. It doesn't mean Giants don't want a stud DT. It just means that they have so many pass rushers putting them all on the field was best way to try and win right now. Try copying that, IMO, would be foolish.

Broncos should draft whoever they think the best football players are. I think though Broncos will look at positions like DT, RB, WR just like we think they should. But with that first round pick, i really think you should take whoever the best football player is. Even if its a spot you aren't that weak at.

iforgotmypassword
04-12-2012, 07:42 PM
Yeah I wasn't saying we should copy the Giants. I'm all with ya on trend setting. Another trend I see is the Patriots, getting as flexible as they can on Defense so they can play with anyone. I don't like this tactic because you can't become great from it. You can win the games you should and that's about it.

DENVERDUI55
04-12-2012, 07:51 PM
Where did I say anything about a zone blitz? I know the difference in front lining and coverage. I corrected something about what Indy
Does and doesn't do on D and u jumped all over me like everyone else.
The over and under represent shifts to either the weak or strong side and varries gap integrity of the DEs. Trust me Indy did not really do this..

In addition..
The Under blitzes the Sam like Denver does.
And both have their advantages/disadvantages against the run and pass.
You said if I thought Tampa 2 involved blitzing and dropping DL which I never said. You are over thinking this. Whether or not a team lines up in over or under 4-3 they can drop the back 7 into cover 2 zone or the Tampa 2 variation which is just a deeper drop by the MLB like I mentioned before.

Swedish Extrovert
04-12-2012, 07:59 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m08nta7NM21qdlh1io1_400.gif

Hilarious!

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 09:26 PM
You keep on contributing, that's fine with me. Some people here thought Jim Bates had the right plan and Jarvis Moss had the best first step on the team. Those people still think they know all about defense, so anything you contribute can't be worse than that.

Thank you for the support!

Bmore Manning
04-12-2012, 09:28 PM
There really are a lot of ***** on here Bmore.... Half the posters on here get a little moist every time they're the first person to either post a Lombardi trophy at the beginning of a thread or when they pull the most hilarious quip ever... "he'd bust 2k in our system"... all the while never giving any sort of insight and attacking anybody who tries to say something. There's some good posters though, should have been around for the days of wabbit and bronco yoda. Great posters.

To answer the original posters question in a way I don't think has been said yet....

The NFL has trends, 3-4 to 4-3 and back again is the most common one. But when looking at DT there are trends also. You ask why don't teams just run two NT's? The league went to that for awhile, the pioneers of that Defense go by the name of the 2000 Baltimore Ravens. They had Sam Adams the Goose in the middle as you probably remember. Many teams followed, including us...Chester McGlockon and Lional Dalton, Pryce was playing DE....... and then the league changed, for the same reason we changed. A team we know as the Indianapolis Colts, following the Colts lead the league transitioned into more of a passing league. Your never going to stop Manning/Brady/etc by having zero penetration in the middle. I see the league transitioning even farther and trying to copy the Giants.... basically no UT/NT just freak athletes. Once they do this offenses will probably start running again.....

Anyways, my two cents.... let's see how much crap I get for trying to give my answer to a post.

Thank you for the support as well! I'm getting attacked on here constantly! It's very unfortunate! I suggest one thing to a great poster and I am belittled for it.

Rohirrim
04-13-2012, 07:17 AM
Thank you for the support as well! I'm getting attacked on here constantly! It's very unfortunate! I suggest one thing to a great poster and I am belittled for it.

This was not a suggestion. It was a declaration of war. Ha!
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3554611&postcount=31

Bmore Manning
04-13-2012, 07:41 AM
This was not a suggestion. It was a declaration of war. Ha!
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3554611&postcount=31

There was no hostile attack or anything from that post. I was suggesting that Indy was getting too much credit defensively, that they ran majority Tampa 2, and were the most bland D in football.

bendog
04-13-2012, 07:43 AM
You keep on contributing, that's fine with me. Some people here thought Jim Bates had the right plan and Jarvis Moss had the best first step on the team. Those people still think they know all about defense, so anything you contribute can't be worse than that.

Hey, Moss did have a great first step ... it's just that he didn't have anything else