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chrisp
04-09-2012, 04:52 AM
I seem to recall the new coaching staff was pretty high on Vickerson when they came in, and pencilled him in a starter alongside some very positive comments. Then he got injured in 2011 and we never really got to see if the coaches had been smoking crack or if the scheme and coaching change really benefitted him or not.

Supposedly now he's healthy, so I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on him - I seem to recall that there was a mix of horror blended with incomprehension on this board last year when the coaches seemed to say he would amount to something, and I know that anyone suggesting that our current defensive tackles are anything other utter garbage tends to get tarred and feathered around here, so I'm assuming that I'll get the usual invective-laden description of him from most of you, I'm just curious as to whether anyone has any insight to offer, or any further background on why the coaches seemed high on him last year.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that I rate the guy or have any great level of expectation for him. I just think its odd that the new coaching staff seemed to pick him out last year, and its certainly true to say that these coaches seem to know more about playing defense than the last lot did....(which ain't saying much I know...)

Ronnie Tsunami
04-09-2012, 06:06 AM
likely part of the reason why we haven't done anything to address DT this offseason

BroncoInferno
04-09-2012, 06:10 AM
Whether we think it wise or not, the only thing that makes sense with the lack of urgency paid to DT this offseason is that they are counting on production from both Vickerson and Warren. They may like the DT depth in the draft as well, but they have to be aware that DT is typically a slow developing position. They must be pleased with Vickerson's and Warren's injury progress and feel confident in their ability to make major contributions.

cmhargrove
04-09-2012, 06:15 AM
Here's my favorite pic where he looks like he is getting ready to eat McD as a mid-game snack...

Gcver2ver3
04-09-2012, 06:24 AM
For last year, I believe EFX projected their starters at DT as vickerson and warren...

So with our lack of movement in free agency regarding the position i have to assume they are banking on those two yet again...

Unless there is a trade in the works we're unaware of...

As we all know, its unwise to rely on rookie DTs to be instant impactful starters...

With all this said, fox did publicy acknowledge our hole at DT, so who knows...

HooptyHoops
04-09-2012, 06:24 AM
Well, at this point, I'm hoping is the savior at the DT position!!

TonyR
04-09-2012, 06:37 AM
...but they have to be aware that DT is typically a slow developing position...

Not to mention a high bust rate position. I really hope they haven't put themselves in a position where they have to reach for a DT in the draft. This team really needs to go BPA.

chrisp
04-09-2012, 06:46 AM
Whether we think it wise or not, the only thing that makes sense with the lack of urgency paid to DT this offseason is that they are counting on production from both Vickerson and Warren. They may like the DT depth in the draft as well, but they have to be aware that DT is typically a slow developing position. They must be pleased with Vickerson's and Warren's injury progress and feel confident in their ability to make major contributions.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I think when Fox referred to having a hole at DT he may well have been talking about lack of depth as much as anything else. Its pretty rare to get an immediate starter at that position in the draft as even the best prospects tend to take a year or two to gear up to the pros.

Just wondering what people's actual thoughts are on vickerson though: he wasn't drafted high, but he's stuck around for a 7th round draft pick. I'm inclined to think he could be solid if unspectacular, a bit like Bunkley was to be honest.

Gut feel is it seems to be relatively easy to find guys who are solid against the run, but guys who can do that whilst also adding something to the pass rush are rare as hen's teeth. This would explain why we've been relatively cool on the position in FA and also makes me think we go for the bst pass-rushing DT available to us at #25 as a developmental prospect.

gyldenlove
04-09-2012, 07:24 AM
I think the funny thing about where we are at with DT right now is that Vickerson and Warren were supposed to be our starters last year if not for injury and then bringing Bunkley - we in essence go into this year with the exact same starters as we did last year.

Don't get me wrong, I know we have no depth and both our "starters" have been out of football for a while and have injury concerns, so I do realize we need to add to the position, but the out and out panic that we don't have a DT on the roster is a bit misplaced.

pricejj
04-09-2012, 07:58 AM
Vickerson's 4 tackles in 5 starts we're VERY promising, last year... Just imagine what he could do if he started the WHOLE year.

maher_tyler
04-09-2012, 08:08 AM
Vickerson's 4 tackles in 5 starts we're VERY promising, last year... Just imagine what he could do if he started the WHOLE year.

As long as he can stop the run we'll be fine. Lets hope and pray he and Warren can stay healthy and make some plays for us. Same can be said of Irving..if not, we're going to playing in a lot of high scoring games!

Tombstone RJ
04-09-2012, 08:14 AM
The problem with Vickerson (and Warren) is can they stay healthy? When Vickerson has played he's been pretty good. If I was EFX I would not count on both Vickerson and Warren being healthy for the upcoming season. In fact, I'd count on each or both of them missing significant playing time due to injuries.

IMHO if EFX thinks that Vickerson and Warren are going to be the starting DTs in the base 4-3 then they are also saying they will be drafting guys to come in and play behind Vickerson and Warren, knowing full well that these rooks will get playing time.

Beantown Bronco
04-09-2012, 08:15 AM
I still can't understand anyone even attempting to make an argument for Ty Warren as a potential starter this year. I just can't understand the logic there. The guy has either been hurt or largely ineffective for like 3.5-4 years now. Hell, Albert Haynesworth has been better more recently than him and he'd be significantly cheaper than Warren, yet people here throw up at the mere sound of his name.

Gcver2ver3
04-09-2012, 08:17 AM
Vickerson's 4 tackles in 5 starts we're VERY promising, last year... Just imagine what he could do if he started the WHOLE year.

Thats not the best way to measure a DTs worth...

So as long as he takes care of his gap and frees mays up to make the tackles i'm good...

Tackles for losses would be great too but i dont expect vickerson to be a world beater...

pricejj
04-09-2012, 08:18 AM
As long as he can stop the run we'll be fine. Lets hope and pray he and Warren can stay healthy and make some plays for us. Same can be said of Irving..if not, we're going to playing in a lot of high scoring games!

Stopping the run isn't going to matter much when Tom Brady and Co. drop 45 on us, because we can't get within 10 feet of the QB (and I have seen no indication that Vickerson is any good at stopping the run).


Tackles for losses would be great too but i dont expect vickerson to be a world beater...

Vickerson is penciled in as the starting UT right now. Just for some perspective, Vickerson has been in the NFL for 7 years...and only has 3.5 sacks.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2012, 08:22 AM
I still can't understand anyone even attempting to make an argument for Ty Warren as a potential starter this year. I just can't understand the logic there. The guy has either been hurt or largely ineffective for like 3.5-4 years now. Hell, Albert Haynesworth has been better more recently than him and he'd be significantly cheaper than Warren, yet people here throw up at the mere sound of his name.

I don't disagree, but it's the only thing that makes sense given the lack of urgency at signing any DTs. Even if they aren't crazy about the guys available, they seemingly need at least a warm body if nothing else. And, yet, they don't seem in a hurry to sign anyone. They must be counting on Warren for a significant contribution, whether or not it aapears to make sense. Even if they love the DTs in the draft and plan on picking a couple, they have to be aware that DTs are slow to develope.

Gcver2ver3
04-09-2012, 08:29 AM
Stopping the run isn't going to matter much when Tom Brady and Co. drop 45 on us, because we can't get within 10 feet of the QB (and I have seen no indication that Vickerson is any good at stopping the run).



Vickerson is penciled in as the starting UT right now. Just for some perspective, Vickerson has been in the NFL for 7 years...and only has 3.5 sacks.

Yes i know where is projected...

He's expected to be a 1 gap penetrater....

If he fulfills that duty it will open lanes for lbs to plug the run...

UTs have respnsibilties against the run too... i'm less worried about his sack production there...

pricejj
04-09-2012, 08:29 AM
I don't disagree, but it's the only thing that makes sense given the lack of urgency at signing any DTs. Even if they aren't crazy about the guys available, they seemingly need at least a warm body if nothing else. And, yet, they don't seem in a hurry to sign anyone. They must be counting on Warren for a significant contribution, whether or not it aapears to make sense. Even if they love the DTs in the draft and plan on picking a couple, they have to be aware that DTs are slow to develope.

I would almost gaurantee that Fox and Del Rio are planning on drafting a Alualu/Knighton-type combo in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Both players contributed right away for Del Rio in Jacksonville.

BroncoInferno
04-09-2012, 08:35 AM
I would almost gaurantee that Fox and Del Rio are planning on drafting a Alualu/Knighton-type combo in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Both players contributed right away for Del Rio in Jacksonville.

We will see. Like I said, DTs are typically slow to develop, so we could have a rough go of it in the middle if they plan on two rookies starting right away.

pricejj
04-09-2012, 08:36 AM
Yes i know where is projected...

He's expected to be a 1 gap penetrater....

If he fulfills that duty it will open lanes for lbs to plug the run...

UTs have respnsibilties against the run too... i'm less worried about his sack production there...

Vickerson slimmed down to 285 lbs. last year to play the UT. Alfred Williams joked about him, saying he "Looked like Tarzan, played like Jane". Last year was supposed to be Vickerson's BIG year at UT...and he produced 4 tackles. All indicators show that Broncos invest at DT BIG TIME in the draft.

They have to believe that Worthy, Still, and Reyes are all worthy of 1st round picks, that at least one of them will be available @ #25, and they believe that pick will definitely contribute as a rookie. Del Rio seems to be able to get the best out of rookie Defensive Lineman.

DENVERDUI55
04-09-2012, 08:37 AM
At what point do we bring fat Albert in on a cheap deal. He might play ok to try for a contract after. I never thought I would even think about bringing him in.

pricejj
04-09-2012, 08:42 AM
We will see. Like I said, DTs are typically slow to develop, so we could have a rough go of it in the middle if they plan on two rookies starting right away.

I am sure Warren will start at NT, and Worthy or Still will start at UT. I would suspect they target Ta'amu in the 2nd, to back up Warren.

I don't necessarily agree with the way they are approaching this, but that seems to be their philosophy, as far as I can tell.

maher_tyler
04-09-2012, 08:44 AM
Vickerson's 4 tackles in 5 starts we're VERY promising, last year... Just imagine what he could do if he started the WHOLE year.

As long as he can stop the run we'll be fine. Lets hope and pray he and Warren can stay healthy and make some plays for us. Same can be said of Irving..if not, we're going to playing in a lot of high scoring games!

Bacchus
04-09-2012, 09:21 AM
Not to mention a high bust rate position. I really hope they haven't put themselves in a position where they have to reach for a DT in the draft. This team really needs to go BPA.

It won' be a reach. There are 7 DTs with a first round grade this year. So Denver will not reach in the first round.

TonyR
04-09-2012, 09:33 AM
It won' be a reach. There are 7 DTs with a first round grade this year. So Denver will not reach in the first round.

Most of those 7 have some question marks. I doubt the Broncos, or any team, grades them all as first rounders. So lets say the Broncos have 4 of them as worth pick #25 or higher and they're all gone at 25. Do you "reach" and take one of the other 3 (draft by need) or take BPA?

BroncoMan4ever
04-09-2012, 09:35 AM
For last year, I believe EFX projected their starters at DT as vickerson and warren...

So with our lack of movement in free agency regarding the position i have to assume they are banking on those two yet again...

Unless there is a trade in the works we're unaware of...

As we all know, its unwise to rely on rookie DTs to be instant impactful starters...

With all this said, fox did publicy acknowledge our hole at DT, so who knows...

you have to figure that like the Bunkley situation last year, DT will come available after the draft and Denver will probably make some moves like that

pricejj
04-09-2012, 09:54 AM
you have to figure that like the Bunkley situation last year, DT will come available after the draft and Denver will probably make some moves like that

After the draft, the roster will be full at DT. The only reason the Broncos went after Bunkley, is because Warren went on the IR....and they got lucky...Bunkley was supposed to be a Brown.

BroncoBen
04-09-2012, 09:59 AM
Whether we think it wise or not, the only thing that makes sense with the lack of urgency paid to DT this offseason is that they are counting on production from both Vickerson and Warren. They may like the DT depth in the draft as well, but they have to be aware that DT is typically a slow developing position. They must be pleased with Vickerson's and Warren's injury progress and feel confident in their ability to make major contributions.

This seems to be thought... and with the draft being deep at DT don't be surprised if the Broncos don't wait till the 3rd round and draft a DT. Maybe the first two picks are used on a WR and RB.

Bacchus
04-09-2012, 10:56 AM
Most of those 7 have some question marks. I doubt the Broncos, or any team, grades them all as first rounders. So lets say the Broncos have 4 of them as worth pick #25 or higher and they're all gone at 25. Do you "reach" and take one of the other 3 (draft by need) or take BPA?

I have no idea how many the Broncos have rated as 1st rounders. even if they draft a guy at #25 whom they had rated as an early first that is still not a reach. A Reach is a little more profound than that. A reach is when you draft for someone that could possivbly be there when you draft next but you are not sure so you reach and grab him one round early.

Gcver2ver3
04-09-2012, 11:00 AM
you have to figure that like the Bunkley situation last year, DT will come available after the draft and Denver will probably make some moves like that

Keep in mind its not apples to apples...

Last year, due to the lockout, free agency came after the draft...

If the broncos are using that same strategy they could come out real disappointed...

Beantown Bronco
04-09-2012, 11:17 AM
Keep in mind its not apples to apples...

Last year, due to the lockout, free agency came after the draft...

If the broncos are using that same strategy they could come out real disappointed...

Last year, they acquired most of their DTs via trade after the draft, not FA. So technically they can use the same strategy regardless of the normal timing of FA this year.

Gcver2ver3
04-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Last year, they acquired most of their DTs via trade after the draft, not FA. So technically they can use the same strategy regardless of the normal timing of FA this year.

We did?...

I only recall trading for bunkley and jarmon...

I dont recall us trading for warren, thomas, unrein, etc...

In any event, that would be a poor strategy to repeat...

bendog
04-09-2012, 12:22 PM
I have no idea how many the Broncos have rated as 1st rounders. even if they draft a guy at #25 whom they had rated as an early first that is still not a reach. A Reach is a little more profound than that. A reach is when you draft for someone that could possivbly be there when you draft next but you are not sure so you reach and grab him one round early.

I don't know what they'll do but they should get a UT at 25 who is rated a late first rounder and possibly get Thompson in the second. I don't think they'll get a a total bust, like Jonathan Sullivan who isn't even in the league despite no injury, but whoever they get may well be not any better than Bunkley. Still, that isn't the worst thing, since they won't get Bunkley's rookie contract, and Den should be able to retain at least one in free agency, if they want to. They'd go a long way to solving the position long term.

They could easily go RB in the second too, though. And try and get an A gap guy in latter rounds.

Swedish Extrovert
04-09-2012, 01:16 PM
Whether we think it wise or not, the only thing that makes sense with the lack of urgency paid to DT this offseason is that they are counting on production from both Vickerson and Warren. They may like the DT depth in the draft as well, but they have to be aware that DT is typically a slow developing position. They must be pleased with Vickerson's and Warren's injury progress and feel confident in their ability to make major contributions.

This. While I think Vickerson will come to play, Warren really hasn't played in two years. He used to be good... used to be.

Cito Pelon
04-09-2012, 01:35 PM
I seem to recall the new coaching staff was pretty high on Vickerson when they came in, and pencilled him in a starter alongside some very positive comments. Then he got injured in 2011 and we never really got to see if the coaches had been smoking crack or if the scheme and coaching change really benefitted him or not.

Supposedly now he's healthy, so I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on him - I seem to recall that there was a mix of horror blended with incomprehension on this board last year when the coaches seemed to say he would amount to something, and I know that anyone suggesting that our current defensive tackles are anything other utter garbage tends to get tarred and feathered around here, so I'm assuming that I'll get the usual invective-laden description of him from most of you, I'm just curious as to whether anyone has any insight to offer, or any further background on why the coaches seemed high on him last year.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that I rate the guy or have any great level of expectation for him. I just think its odd that the new coaching staff seemed to pick him out last year, and its certainly true to say that these coaches seem to know more about playing defense than the last lot did....(which ain't saying much I know...)

That's probably the key. They think they can get some production out of Vickerson. He's cheap also, and I think the FO definitely had to consider the dollars (the "internal budget" imposed by Bowlen) when they were looking at bringing in some FA DT's, or re-signing Bunkley.

Hulamau
04-09-2012, 02:15 PM
Not to mention a high bust rate position. I really hope they haven't put themselves in a position where they have to reach for a DT in the draft. This team really needs to go BPA.

I think both Vickerson and Warren are ready for prime time this year. Warren always had the skill, just some bad injury luck the last two years but also no added wear and tear for two long seasons of play either.

And VIckerson was really blossoming into a true starter calibre DT by beginning of last year when the ankle laid him on IR for the year as well. With both well healed now .. and with a little luck for both on future injury front we will have two solid starters and no doubt two rookie DTs from the draft, including at least one 2nd round or higher caliber who can contribute right away in the rotation.

I suspect we sign Thomas again on the cheap after the draft to go along with McBean when he gets back from his little early season 'vacation' and maybe a trade too in the mix and we should be better off than last year in the interior Dline.

Ayers was really playing well the last half of the year and I think with his second year now in a 4-3 at his most natural position, we can expect more big strides from him as well as he anchors the LDE and can slide inside as well when needed.

There is no doubt both Doom, who was still a little slowed the first half of last year, and Miller in year two and fully-healed from his hand injury as well will be outstanding this year together. And with Del Rio calling the shots I have little doubt he and Fox will be more than comfortable with what they go to war with this year along the front 7.

I wouldn't be surprised if they went for Dont'a Hightower if he is still around at 25, or even Doug Martin and then go DT in the 2nd and 3rd or 4th with the deep DT draft board this year. Its unlikely any DT from the second round on below would have a chance to start this year in any event and I think we get better overall bang for the buck with a healthy Vickerson and Warren starting this year and develop at least two solid rookie prospects while using our first round leverage on a skill position like a top RB who can make a major contribution right away .. particularly for a guy as solid and versatile as Doug Martin who can block the blitz like a pro already and can catch like a WR coming out of the backfield. And Martin will NOT be around by our 2nd round pick)>

Payton having Martin and McGahee to hand the ball off too and throwing to Martin coming out of the backfield as well as the two TE along with Decker and DT would equal powerful offensive firepower and do wonders for keeping our defense on the sidelines and well rested. That could do as much for our Dlines performance game in and game out as having both a first and second round DT picks in this draft.

When we controlled the clock and tempo last year with the run game our D dominated for the most part with all the rest they got.

I would'nt mind Doug Martin in the first at all. Or maybe grab Dont'a as a stud linebacker we sorely need as well. Then best DT available in the second or even trade one of our Tebow picks to move higher up in the second if a Solid DT is still there. We could also grab a second good DT in the third or fourth round for development and rotation then suddenly our hole there starts to fill in nicely.

Requiem
04-09-2012, 02:28 PM
Here's my favorite pic where he looks like he is getting ready to eat McD as a mid-game snack...

Lol that is a huge dude.