PDA

View Full Version : Bannan


MABroncoFan
04-05-2012, 03:24 PM
Visited today, per Denver Post

broncosteven
04-05-2012, 03:25 PM
I thought mCd misused him.

JCMElway
04-05-2012, 03:42 PM
If we actually had the moxie to sign Bannan and Okoye, I would be OK with taking only one DT in our first 3 picks in the draft.

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 03:45 PM
This is being discussed in another thread, but I'll say it now.. This is a pathetic desperate move!

extralife
04-05-2012, 03:48 PM
This is a pathetic desperate move!

which is a lot better than no move

CHANGSTER
04-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Need to bring in some sort of competition considering both penciled in starters were out all of last season. At least he was a starter last year. Not a good one, but a starter nonetheless.

Turd_Ferguson
04-05-2012, 05:47 PM
This is being discussed in another thread, but I'll say it now.. This is a pathetic desperate move!

Bannan is a solid player. He played well in Baltimore before coming to the Broncos. I was actually wandering why he hadn't been brought in before now.

What is pathetic and desperate is switching teams because your hall of fame QB ditched your pathetic franchise.

vancejohnson82
04-05-2012, 05:47 PM
Bannan is a solid player. He played well in Baltimore before coming to the Broncos. I was actually wandering why he hadn't been brought in before now.

What is pathetic and desperate is switching teams because your hall of fame QB ditched your pathetic franchise.

word

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 06:03 PM
Bannan is a solid player. He played well in Baltimore before coming to the Broncos. I was actually wandering why he hadn't been brought in before now.

What is pathetic and desperate is switching teams because your hall of fame QB ditched your pathetic franchise.

He sucked in Baltimore, you don't know what your talking about. Indy isn't my franchise lol you look like a stupid F U C K.

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 06:04 PM
word

Cosignning like a punk bitch?

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 06:08 PM
which is a lot better than no move

Lol... I mean not at the expense of not drafting young DTs.

lonestar
04-05-2012, 06:25 PM
Lol... I mean not at the expense of not drafting young DTs.

Lets hope that we do not spend big bucks on tired vets and skip over bringing in quality players in the draft. at any spot but mostly DT.. It takes a year or two for the vast majority of them to figure it out..

Unless your in a position to draft a Suh type DL guy it is going to take time..

LEts hope that we will never be back there..

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 06:32 PM
Lets hope that we do not spend big bucks on tired vets and skip over bringing in quality players in the draft. at any spot but mostly DT.. It takes a year or two for the vast majority of them to figure it out..

Unless your in a position to draft a Suh type DL guy it is going to take time..

LEts hope that we will never be back there..

Veterans can offer a good stop gap, as long as they still draft well. I'm wondering who's available realistically through a trade.

Rohirrim
04-05-2012, 06:37 PM
Bannan would certainly be an improvement over the total unknowns we have as backups right now.

oubronco
04-05-2012, 06:44 PM
Why all the hate Bannan played well when he was here

KipCorrington25
04-05-2012, 06:47 PM
At least with this guy you know what you're getting. If the price is fair then I'm for it, if he's asking too much then you pass.

maher_tyler
04-05-2012, 06:55 PM
Lets hope that we do not spend big bucks on tired vets and skip over bringing in quality players in the draft. at any spot but mostly DT.. It takes a year or two for the vast majority of them to figure it out..

Unless your in a position to draft a Suh type DL guy it is going to take time..

LEts hope that we will never be back there..

I'd rather deal with the growing pains of rookie DTs with lots of potential than have guys that have been in the league for 5+ years!

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 07:03 PM
Serious Question, Bannon at NT next year and a third-fourth rounder backing him up. Or a first or second round NT starting day one?

oubronco
04-05-2012, 07:07 PM
Serious Question, Bannon at NT next year and a third-fourth rounder backing him up. Or a first or second round NT starting day one?

Why would having Bannan mean they wouldn't get a DT till the 3rd or 4th rd

Swedish Extrovert
04-05-2012, 07:08 PM
Lets hope that we do not spend big bucks on tired vets and skip over bringing in quality players in the draft. at any spot but mostly DT.. It takes a year or two for the vast majority of them to figure it out..

Unless your in a position to draft a Suh type DL guy it is going to take time..

LEts hope that we will never be back there..

Your posts always leave me scratching my head whil I try and work through incomplete thoughts, contradictory arguments, and grammar errors.

broncosteven
04-05-2012, 07:22 PM
Why would having Bannan mean they wouldn't get a DT till the 3rd or 4th rd

If you look at the Giants DL most of those guys were picked in the mid rounds. I would not be pissed if they grabbed a DT or 2 around the 3rd round especially if they sign a vet.

oubronco
04-05-2012, 07:24 PM
If you look at the Giants DL most of those guys were picked in the mid rounds. I would not be pissed if they grabbed a DT or 2 around the 3rd round especially if they sign a vet.

I would like to see them take at least 2 DT's with Worthy in the first

Shananahan
04-05-2012, 07:31 PM
Indy isn't my franchise lol you look like a stupid * * * *.
Who is/was?

barryr
04-05-2012, 07:51 PM
Bannan is better than some of the stiffs the Broncos have at DT, but that's about it. A band-aid move.

crush17
04-05-2012, 07:57 PM
It would be sweet if Ty Warren and Vickerson played well and stayed healthy this season.

If that happened and we had Bannan as well as a 1st or 2nd round DT, I think we'd be pretty set at the position for 2012.

Bmore Manning
04-05-2012, 08:05 PM
Why would having Bannan mean they wouldn't get a DT till the 3rd or 4th rd

Value purposes.. They signed Porter and Adams to not only improve the DBs, but in Adams case in particular, he's a stop gap to allow Moore to develop. Porter offers a young CB of the future solution and allows Denver to take a top CB in a future draft.

So if you get Bannon, you intend for him to probably start and split time with a rookie, so why use a #1 or 2 draft pick on a player who's not gonna start, and be a backup? That's what later picks are for.

Broncojef
04-05-2012, 08:14 PM
We are in a win now scenario while peyton is at the helm. Having all holes filled with even marginal talent going into the draft allows the Broncos to go after true game changers that will make a difference now, whatever the position. The Broncos have never invested fully into a dominant front four I don't think they'll start now.

Dedhed
04-05-2012, 08:21 PM
I'd feel much better going into the draft if we signed Bannan and Okoye.

pricejj
04-05-2012, 09:26 PM
We are in a win now scenario while peyton is at the helm. Having all holes filled with even marginal talent going into the draft allows the Broncos to go after true game changers that will make a difference now, whatever the position.

yessir

lonestar
04-05-2012, 10:00 PM
I'd rather deal with the growing pains of rookie DTs with lots of potential than have guys that have been in the league for 5+ years!

I'll take a 5 year guy but someone who has been in the league 9 or more not worth the money..

With the 4-5 year guy you have seen what he can or has done.. what his potential is.. and should be around for 5-12 years if he is worth keeping..

Rookies are very hit miss.. unless you're drafting in the top 5 and even then you get duds from time to time..

But even if we bring in one of these guys swe still have to draft some talent in rounds one or two for longer term..

Something we have not ever done and worked out..

lonestar
04-05-2012, 10:02 PM
We are in a win now scenario while peyton is at the helm. Having all holes filled with even marginal talent going into the draft allows the Broncos to go after true game changers that will make a difference now, whatever the position. The Broncos have never invested fully into a dominant front four I don't think they'll start now.

you are probably correct if Elway is the only decision maker..

If Fox and the new kid have any say then we have a chance in making history..

Broncojef
04-05-2012, 11:22 PM
you are probably correct if Elway is the only decision maker..

If Fox and the new kid have any say then we have a chance in making history..

Don't get me wrong I hope we do draft some front line studs. I say sign some marginal talent (Bannan types) as stop gap guys prior to the draft. Take at least one DT high and and a stud RB and I'm happy. Maybe Fox and DelRio do set the Broncos on a new path but I won't be shocked to come back and see the board in full melt down mode if we do what we normally do, actually I kind of expect it.

HighCountryBronco
04-06-2012, 12:14 AM
I thought mCd misused him.

^ This!

Drek
04-06-2012, 04:48 AM
Value purposes.. They signed Porter and Adams to not only improve the DBs, but in Adams case in particular, he's a stop gap to allow Moore to develop. Porter offers a young CB of the future solution and allows Denver to take a top CB in a future draft.

So if you get Bannon, you intend for him to probably start and split time with a rookie, so why use a #1 or 2 draft pick on a player who's not gonna start, and be a backup? That's what later picks are for.

You're completely miss-assessing Bannan's role if he does sign here. Bannan was principally a NT for Baltimore when he was playing the best football of his career. That is the role he will likely reprise for us here. Between him and Warren we might actually have a veteran NT available the whole season who isn't horrible.

The earliest drafted DT, especially if they do take one in the first round, will almost definitely be a UT type who can penetrate and help the pass rush. Cox if he slides, Worthy, etc.. That rookie will then be competing with Vickerson and Ryan McBean.

To further this discussion, why in hell would we expect a rookie DT to start every snap from day one? BJ Raji sure as hell didn't do that in Green Bay. Haloti Ngata didn't do that in Baltimore and he might be the best all around DL of this era. Vince Wilfork didn't do that in New England. They were all situational players early on and I could name many more. The best DTs are ones who have specific impact roles lined out for them as rookies and then grow into an every down player with further development at the NFL level. Someone like Ndamukong Suh is a very rare talent. We aren't drafting that kind of guy this year, he's a modern day Reggie White. But we might be able to draft the next Warren Sapp or John Randle if we're smart with our selection and how we bring him along (FYI, neither Sapp or Randle were every down starters their first year either). Wanting an every down DL with their first round pick is what convinces teams that a guy like Tyson Jackson is worthy of a top 5 pick, or gets them to look past the lack of one true elite skill in a guy like Glenn Dorsey. Find a DT you know can get after the QB and use him as a situational weapon with the first rounder, then develop him into an every down player over the next few years.

At the same time they should also add a mid-round NT type to start developing as well so that after next season when the stop gaps are no longer here we have a young in house option to step in to fill that void.

If they do manage to sign Okoye or bring back Marcus Thomas that will not preclude signing Bannan either, FYI, it just gives us a sign that they don't want to be locked in to taking a UT early in the draft.

CEH
04-06-2012, 04:58 AM
You're completely miss-assessing Bannan's role if he does sign here. Bannan was principally a NT for Baltimore when he was playing the best football of his career. That is the role he will likely reprise for us here. Between him and Warren we might actually have a veteran NT available the whole season who isn't horrible.

The earliest drafted DT, especially if they do take one in the first round, will almost definitely be a UT type who can penetrate and help the pass rush. Cox if he slides, Worthy, etc.. That rookie will then be competing with Vickerson and Ryan McBean.

To further this discussion, why in hell would we expect a rookie DT to start every snap from day one? BJ Raji sure as hell didn't do that in Green Bay. Haloti Ngata didn't do that in Baltimore and he might be the best all around DL of this era. Vince Wilfork didn't do that in New England. They were all situational players early on and I could name many more. The best DTs are ones who have specific impact roles lined out for them as rookies and then grow into an every down player with further development at the NFL level. Someone like Ndamukong Suh is a very rare talent. We aren't drafting that kind of guy this year, he's a modern day Reggie White. But we might be able to draft the next Warren Sapp or John Randle if we're smart with our selection and how we bring him along (FYI, neither Sapp or Randle were every down starters their first year either). Wanting an every down DL with their first round pick is what convinces teams that a guy like Tyson Jackson is worthy of a top 5 pick, or gets them to look past the lack of one true elite skill in a guy like Glenn Dorsey. Find a DT you know can get after the QB and use him as a situational weapon with the first rounder, then develop him into an every down player over the next few years.

At the same time they should also add a mid-round NT type to start developing as well so that after next season when the stop gaps are no longer here we have a young in house option to step in to fill that void.

If they do manage to sign Okoye or bring back Marcus Thomas that will not preclude signing Bannan either, FYI, it just gives us a sign that they don't want to be locked in to taking a UT early in the draft.

Great post. Signing Bannan would in NO way preclude Denver from drafting a 1st round DT. In fact I can't think of one DT drafted in the latter third of the 1st that did come in and start for 16 games.

Vegas_Bronco
04-06-2012, 05:35 AM
Give fox and del rio a 6th round pick and they'll have him playing like a one by the end of the year...these guys know how to get it done up front and at linebacker. If you don't work out they pull you out. Von was even replaced during last season...these two coaches know defense and last yeatr our dline played the best I have seen in 10 years.

Drek
04-06-2012, 05:46 AM
Give fox and del rio a 6th round pick and they'll have him playing like a one by the end of the year...these guys know how to get it done up front and at linebacker. If you don't work out they pull you out. Von was even replaced during last season...these two coaches know defense and last yeatr our dline played the best I have seen in 10 years.

The best in years isn't saying much given what our DL has been like for nearly a decade now.

Has Del Rio shown an ability to coach up mid to late round DTs? Sure. But instead of giving him scraps and asking for average back why not give him elite talent and have him develop elite players from them?

My ideal would have the Broncos going hard after Fletcher Cox, even if it requires a trade up. Add either Josh Chapman in the late second (ideal) or Mike Martin in the 3rd as our future NT. Draft Derek Wolfe in the late 4th to be a UT/DE dual purpose type. That is assuming they sign Bannan (I'm betting they will). If they can add Okoye too then we don't have to sell out to get someone like Cox and go BPA in the first instead of really needing to find a worthwhile UT there.

barryr
04-06-2012, 05:57 AM
The best in years isn't saying much given what our DL has been like for nearly a decade now.

Has Del Rio shown an ability to coach up mid to late round DTs? Sure. But instead of giving him scraps and asking for average back why not give him elite talent and have him develop elite players from them?

My ideal would have the Broncos going hard after Fletcher Cox, even if it requires a trade up. Add either Josh Chapman in the late second (ideal) or Mike Martin in the 3rd as our future NT. Draft Derek Wolfe in the late 4th to be a UT/DE dual purpose type. That is assuming they sign Bannan (I'm betting they will). If they can add Okoye too then we don't have to sell out to get someone like Cox and go BPA in the first instead of really needing to find a worthwhile UT there.

Agreed. What is wrong with trying to acquire some elite talent instead of always trying to make do with lesser talent all the time? There is some rule the Broncos can not have good DL? Cox is the guy I wanted some time ago, but as the draft gets nearer, he may be gone by #15. Reyes is the guy that I would want if Cox is gone at 25.

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 06:15 AM
You're completely miss-assessing Bannan's role if he does sign here. Bannan was principally a NT for Baltimore when he was playing the best football of his career. That is the role he will likely reprise for us here. Between him and Warren we might actually have a veteran NT available the whole season who isn't horrible.

The earliest drafted DT, especially if they do take one in the first round, will almost definitely be a UT type who can penetrate and help the pass rush. Cox if he slides, Worthy, etc.. That rookie will then be competing with Vickerson and Ryan McBean.

To further this discussion, why in hell would we expect a rookie DT to start every snap from day one? BJ Raji sure as hell didn't do that in Green Bay. Haloti Ngata didn't do that in Baltimore and he might be the best all around DL of this era. Vince Wilfork didn't do that in New England. They were all situational players early on and I could name many more. The best DTs are ones who have specific impact roles lined out for them as rookies and then grow into an every down player with further development at the NFL level. Someone like Ndamukong Suh is a very rare talent. We aren't drafting that kind of guy this year, he's a modern day Reggie White. But we might be able to draft the next Warren Sapp or John Randle if we're smart with our selection and how we bring him along (FYI, neither Sapp or Randle were every down starters their first year either). Wanting an every down DL with their first round pick is what convinces teams that a guy like Tyson Jackson is worthy of a top 5 pick, or gets them to look past the lack of one true elite skill in a guy like Glenn Dorsey. Find a DT you know can get after the QB and use him as a situational weapon with the first rounder, then develop him into an every down player over the next few years.

At the same time they should also add a mid-round NT type to start developing as well so that after next season when the stop gaps are no longer here we have a young in house option to step in to fill that void.

If they do manage to sign Okoye or bring back Marcus Thomas that will not preclude signing Bannan either, FYI, it just gives us a sign that they don't want to be locked in to taking a UT early in the draft.

Your repeating what I have been saying, except you feel that a first round DT will only be situational, and I totally disagree. Alu Alu started in JAX under Del Rio at UT, so I think that's a generalization your making. I also said if u get a Vet NT then you go mid round NT for value purposes and you just resaid what I said. So apparently you are arguing just for arguments sake. We differ on opinions of a first round UT starting or not.

I agree about players, my ideal UT is Cox, my ideal NT is Chapman or Thompson... But I think Cox and Thompson should start or at least see 40-50% of the snaps at their positions. If they aren't planning on getting value from their top 2-3 rounds minimal as starters to significant playing time as backups, then they should get guys with high upside later, Wolfe of Cincy or Jaye of Florida for UT later on, and Chapman or Randal for NT. Could use both fourth rounders to get one from each DT technique and they would represent better value for role-develop players.

All draft picks used early rounds 1-3 need to be STARTERS to fill holes and make an impact! Otherwise your not following a win now
Formula.

It's also absurd of you to think DTs don't start. Tennessee started two rookie DTs last year! Both mud round picks.

vancejohnson82
04-06-2012, 06:22 AM
Cosignning like a punk b****?

trash poster brought on with Manning...

I guess I can deal with that trade-off

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 06:31 AM
trash poster brought on with Manning...

I guess I can deal with that trade-off

Trash poster? I don't see you stimulating any good debates, just talking **** to me and running in and out like the coward you are.

vancejohnson82
04-06-2012, 06:41 AM
Trash poster? I don't see you stimulating any good debates, just talking **** to me and running in and out like the coward you are.

the day you were using Bleacher Report articles to bolster your argument I figured out what kind of a poster you were

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 06:49 AM
the day you were using Bleacher Report articles to bolster your argument I figured out what kind of a poster you were

You mean we're it ranked the top 64 DTs? And Shaun Rogers was in the low 20's and Justin Bannon didn't make the list? Or the Walterfootball article that has Rogers as the 12 best DT remaining, mainly due to age, and Bannon was 19? So if these guys are the same age, do the same job, but one does it better, I should be attacked because I think it's sad they are targeting the lesser of the two. The bleacher and Walter football link were just sources to show who's better, besides everyone gets stats/info from somewhere. And I watched Bannon and Rogers in the AFC North, trust me Rogers is the better NT. What do you add to anything other than your attempt to belittle, when you look like the chump.

Drek
04-06-2012, 07:12 AM
Your repeating what I have been saying,
Not at all. You're saying that signing Bannan makes our first round DT into a situational player. Bannan and any first round DT (who will be a UT, Brockers isn't likely to fall to us) effectively don't even play the same position. What you said was the equivalent of someone saying "don't draft Kuechly, he can't play every down with Von Miller already on the team!"

except you feel that a first round DT will only be situational, and I totally disagree. Alu Alu started in JAX under Del Rio at UT, so I think that's a generalization your making.
1. Alualu (no space in there) is a solid high floor, low ceiling DT drafted high because he could step in and fill a need immediately, but offers very little star potential. He was taken 11th overall. Of course what I said is a generalization, but it is a generalization backed up by facts and trends you can clearly see. If you want a UT who can get after the QB (which we do) you don't draft a guy like Alualu. You draft a guy who gets after the QB and develop the rest of his game.

2. Your generalization is that we need a starter out of our first round pick for it to be successful, which is obviously false as many situational non-starters have been taken in the first and played great. The 49ers took just such a player in Aldon Smith last year. Zero starts, 14 sacks, 2nd in DROY voting. See how that works? Situational guy drafted for a specific role pays immediate dividends.

I also said if u get a Vet NT then you go mid round NT for value purposes and you just resaid what I said. So apparently you are arguing just for arguments sake.
Bannan is that vet NT. In the post I qouted you made no mention of drafting a later round NT, just that Bannan would keep an early round DT selection, almost definitely a UT, off the field. That isn't true as Bannan won't even play the same role in the defense as any DT we're likely to take in round 1.

I agree about players, my ideal UT is Cox, my ideal NT is Chapman or Thompson... But I think Cox and Thompson should start or at least see 40-50% of the snaps at their positions. If they aren't planning on getting value from their top 2-3 rounds minimal as starters to significant playing time as backups, then they should get guys with high upside later, Wolfe of Cincy or Jaye of Florida for UT later on, and Chapman or Randal for NT. Could use both fourth rounders to get one from each DT technique and they would represent better value for role-develop players.
Percentage of snaps is a useless stat for young players. How much impact do they have when on the field and how many situations can you put them on the field. That is all that matters. If we drafted Cox and only used him as an interior pass rush specialist, seeing maybe 25-30% of the snaps as a rookie, but he put up 10 sacks would you view that as a wasted pick? That is what you are arguing.

All draft picks used early rounds 1-3 need to be STARTERS to fill holes and make an impact! Otherwise your not following a win now
Formula.
They should make an impact, starting is not required to make an impact.

It's also absurd of you to think DTs don't start. Tennessee started two rookie DTs last year! Both mud round picks.
1. Neither Sen'Derrick Marks or Jason Jones are rookies. Jurrell Casey was a rookie, so only one rookie DT was a starter on their team.

My point was that many of the best DTs did not start. I never said no DTs start out of the gate. I said the best DTs frequently were drafted to fit a specific need that they were excellent at out of the gate and developed into every down players.

Your problems as a poster:

1. You do not thoroughly research your points and often make inaccurate statements as a result.

2. You do not understand other's rebuttals or points, often completely missing them but also frequently taking them to be the ultimate extreme of what is a slightly left or right of center statement.

3. You think your **** don't stink. Fact is the vast majority of your posts have been pretty damn underwhelming so far.

Smilin Assassin
04-06-2012, 07:19 AM
Just my 2 cents:

He brings depth & experience at a position of need, and has proven he can play some @ DE as well.

Given our current line-up there, I agree w/the poster that said they'd feel better going into the draft w/Bannan AND Okoye at DT (along w/Vickerson and Warren).

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 07:26 AM
Your problem as a poster:
1. You think your **** doesn't stink, hence your always lengthy rebutted where you go in circles.

2. I never called Bannon a UT, rather a NT and said that if they sign him more value would be had to take a mid round NT to develop like Chapman.

3. You don't read before you write.

4. Klugg and Casey were their starting DTs, Jason Jones played DE last year you stupid fcuk.

5. I know everything I am saying, otherwise I wouldn't post it and look like a fool as you have by attacking this post, where u repeated many things I have been saying on here and in this very thread.

6. This team is in win now mode therefore all draft picks need to be starters or at the very least large impact players seeing significant time, hence win now mode, not build for the future and having some impact now like traditional drafts.

7. You don't like my posts don't read them and respond. I see you getting into it with many posters because you really think you know it all. I'm not respected because I think I know it all and I'm a Manning fan. You aren't respected because you are an arrogant fcuk, who thinks he has all the answers and needs to take petty insults about spelling, when the iPhone will change spelling.

8. Your a soft chump

ColoradoBuff
04-06-2012, 07:55 AM
Your problem as a poster:
1. You think your **** doesn't stink, hence your always lengthy rebutted where you go in circles.

2. I never called Bannon a UT, rather a NT and said that if they sign him more value would be had to take a mid round NT to develop like Chapman.

3. You don't read before you write.

4. Klugg and Casey were their starting DTs, Jason Jones played DE last year you stupid ****.

5. I know everything I am saying, otherwise I wouldn't post it and look like a fool as you have by attacking this post, where u repeated many things I have been saying on here and in this very thread.


6. This team is in win now mode therefore all draft picks need to be starters or at the very least large impact players seeing significant time, hence win now mode, not build for the future and having some impact now like traditional drafts.

7. You don't like my posts don't read them and respond. I see you getting into it with many posters because you really think you know it all. I'm not respected because I think I know it all and I'm a Manning fan. You aren't respected because you are an arrogant ****, who thinks he has all the answers and needs to take petty insults about spelling, when the iPhone will change spelling.

8. Your a soft chump



You aren't respected because you have a severe case of diarrhea of the mouth. You should really have that looked at. Repect is earned, not given out.....another reason you don't have any!

Turd_Ferguson
04-06-2012, 07:55 AM
I'm not respected

very true

Old Dude
04-06-2012, 07:55 AM
Just my 2 cents:

He brings depth & experience at a position of need, and has proven he can play some @ DE as well.

Given our current line-up there, I agree w/the poster that said they'd feel better going into the draft w/Bannan AND Okoye at DT (along w/Vickerson and Warren).

Ditto. He played reasonably well while he was here - just not up to the big contract he initially signed. IIRC, he was willing to take a cut, but not as much as the previous regime demanded.

I don't think he'd be an "impact" player, but he'd be very helpful in the rotation, especially given his flexibility and our relative lack of depth.

Ultimately, it will come down to dollars and cents.

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 08:05 AM
Don't read or respond to what I write if you don't like me or what I say. But I will continue to post on here and respond where I choose to do so because that's my right.

rugbythug
04-06-2012, 08:07 AM
If posters here think that there is any 22 year old College Football player that can walk in day one and hold his own as a NT no questions asked against 30 year old Pro's week in and week out. Well your delusional. Not going to happen. NT need to be 28-32 or even older, this is a strength position-Not a speed and agility position.

UT is a different story. This you can get a rookie to give you good snaps but any team who thinks they should have an every down DT is doing it wrong. Give me 6 solid players over 1 star and a bunch of JAG.

rugbythug
04-06-2012, 08:08 AM
Don't read or respond to what I write if you don't like me or what I say. But I will continue to post on here and respond where I choose to do so because that's my right.

Right? No privilege.

pricejj
04-06-2012, 08:11 AM
Alualu (no space in there) is a solid high floor, low ceiling DT drafted high because he could step in and fill a need immediately, but offers very little star potential. He was taken 11th overall. Of course what I said is a generalization, but it is a generalization backed up by facts and trends you can clearly see. If you want a UT who can get after the QB (which we do) you don't draft a guy like Alualu. You draft a guy who gets after the QB and develop the rest of his game.


Great posts overall, Drek...I like your analysis on Alualu...calling him a "solid high floor, low ceiling DT" is spot on. He possessed the speed, and good production that you want to see out of a college UT, but he doesn't have elite size, or elite production. He is quick, but that speed can be neutralized.

It is the precise reason why I don't think it's a good idea to draft a player like Jerel Worthy in round 1. Although he has shown flashes, and is a good player, I view him similarly as a "solid high floor, low ceiling DT", because he just doesn't have the physical tools, or production, to truly be an impact UT in the NFL. His physical skillset suggests he may not even possess the "solid high floor" of a guy like Alualu. What do you think?

rugbythug
04-06-2012, 08:14 AM
I differ- Round 1-I only take high floor.

Old Dude
04-06-2012, 08:26 AM
Don't read or respond to what I write if you don't like me or what I say. But I will continue to post on here and respond where I choose to do so because that's my right.

Actually, I thought that you and Drek had a great debate going on here, with both of you making some very good points. (Though I lean more towards Drek's view of things.)

I hope you keep posting your views and opinions, because that's what the forum is all about.

Hopefully, everyone can tone down the personal stuff because it tends to drown out the quality points.

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 08:29 AM
Actually, I thought that you and Drek had a great debate going on here, with both of you making some very good points. (Though I lean more towards Drek's view of things.)

I hope you keep posting your views and opinions, because that's what the forum is all about.

Hopefully, everyone can tone down the personal stuff because it tends to drown out the quality points.

Thank you!

Turd_Ferguson
04-06-2012, 08:34 AM
Don't read or respond to what I write if you don't like me or what I say. But I will continue to post on here and respond where I choose to do so because that's my right.

What you are experiencing is called menstruation.. Most girls your age go through this its totally normal.. On the bright side your mom will probably let you stay home from school today if you mention to her you just got your first period.

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 08:58 AM
What you are experiencing is called menstruation.. Most girls your age go through this its totally normal.. On the bright side your mom will probably let you stay home from school today if you mention to her you just got your first period.

That's cute, I remember when I had my first beer.

Smilin Assassin
04-06-2012, 09:13 AM
Sad is when ya just KNOW that once a thread reaches 3 or more pages, it's no longer about the topic, but the posters in a pissing contest.

Dutch
04-06-2012, 09:49 AM
Sad is when ya just KNOW that once a thread reaches 3 or more pages, it's no longer about the topic, but the posters in a pissing contest.

Been the norm for several years around here. Can't get over how long my ignore list has become, comical actually. I get to page 3-4 and suddenly, everything becomes just poster names with no content. Sigh :notthissh, is what it is I guess.

broncocalijohn
04-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Thank God he is coming in. I hope he signs because I almost had my Bannan Broncos tattoo removed and now I might be able to keep it.

DBroncos4life
04-06-2012, 10:00 AM
Thank God he is coming in. I hope he signs because I almost had my Bannan Broncos tattoo removed and now I might be able to keep it.

Thats good clean fun right there!Ha!

Dutch
04-06-2012, 10:03 AM
Thank God he is coming in. I hope he signs because I almost had my Bannan Broncos tattoo removed and now I might be able to keep it.

Nice!;D

Drek
04-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Your problem as a poster:
1. You think your **** doesn't stink, hence your always lengthy rebutted where you go in circles.I enjoy good debate, that is why I always respond to people's responses to me, or points I see others make that are worth discussing. I'm verbose but that doesn't bother me in the least.

2. I never called Bannon a UT, rather a NT and said that if they sign him more value would be had to take a mid round NT to develop like Chapman.
You said that any DT they'd take early would be minimized by signing Bannan. Any DT they draft early who plays in 2012 is likely to be a UT. Hence why the two are completely unrelated. Your original point didn't make sense. Accept it.

3. You don't read before you write.
In fact, I always read and re-read before I respond to make sure I garner the full context of a given post.

4. Klugg and Casey were their starting DTs, Jason Jones played DE last year you stupid ****.
You mean Karl Klug, the guy who started 1 game out of 16 for Tennessee last year? (http://www.nfl.com/player/karlklug/2495300/profile), or are you saying that your perception of the Titan's starting roster differs from the NFL's?

Sen'Derrick Marks started 9 games at DT, Jason Jones started a combination of his 13 games at DE and DT. Klug started one game all year.

He is a great example of a NON-STARTER having year one impact though. Only 20 tackles but 7 sacks and 2 forced fumbles. Non-starter but he was such an impact player YOU thought he was a starter. Hence why this claim that the first three rounds needs to produce starters is idiotic.


5. I know everything I am saying, otherwise I wouldn't post it and look like a fool as you have by attacking this post, where u repeated many things I have been saying on here and in this very thread.
See above on how you fail at checking your own facts.

6. This team is in win now mode therefore all draft picks need to be starters or at the very least large impact players seeing significant time, hence win now mode, not build for the future and having some impact now like traditional drafts.
Using the draft like this is an excellent way to become a cellar dweller in short order. I have faith that the Broncos FO will look for impact players (regardless of if they can "start" or not) early on but the goal throughout the draft will be to get the best player overall, not the best rookie year.

7. You don't like my posts don't read them and respond. I see you getting into it with many posters because you really think you know it all. I'm not respected because I think I know it all and I'm a Manning fan. You aren't respected because you are an arrogant ****, who thinks he has all the answers and needs to take petty insults about spelling, when the iPhone will change spelling.
So you can't handle constructive criticism and debate on a public forum? This isn't your blog man. If you don't want responses don't post.

8. Your a soft chumpSee, this is what I was referencing. Someone gives you blunt critique and you respond like a child. No one gives a **** that you're a Manning fan. People don't respect you because your first post you claimed to have great insight, try to act like you have great insight, and yet have failed to provide any of it.

You don't know the Broncos players very well. You don't know the Broncos defensive scheme very well. Despite that you're unwilling to listen when others point out where you are in error. That makes for ****ty posting.

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 11:24 AM
You gave a list of things about me, did I do that with you? Not until after you went there.

I'm not going back into this with you, it's tit for tat and annoying. I have plenty of insight, and enjoy a good debate.

Think the problem here is we are alike in our ways, and we can agree to disagree cause this back and forth isn't going anywhere...

Now, lets talk scheme, players in the draft, and FA available.
Who do you think they take @25?

Drek
04-06-2012, 11:38 AM
You gave a list of things about me, did I do that with you? Not until after you went there.

I'm not going back into this with you, it's tit for tat and annoying. I have plenty of insight, and enjoy a good debate.

Think the problem here is we are alike in our ways, and we can agree to disagree cause this back and forth isn't going anywhere...

Now, lets talk scheme, players in the draft, and FA available.
Who do you think they take @25?

I give constructive criticism, nothing more.

And #25 depends entirely on Bannan/Okoye.

You land Bannan and not Okoye? You've got to get Cox because the other UTs are risky.

You land Okoye and not Bannan? Should really consider a jump up for Brockers, or maybe take the gamble on Poe.

Get both? Then you get to play it easy like a fox already in the hen house when the farmer locks up for the night. Take the best guy available regardless of position. Maybe an offensive weapon, maybe additional line depth. I'd personally still like a commitment to the DT position long term, but it goes from "if we don't take one we're going to suck" to "it'd be nice, but we've patched over the holes for at least another year".

My fear is they sign neither, bring Thomas back cheap, and then act like DT has been addressed until round 4 or 5 when they take one low upside guy and then bring a couple UDFAs into camp. My hope is that Del Rio's presence and ability to spot DTs will end the fear of spending any real value on the position.

Bmore Manning
04-06-2012, 11:46 AM
I give constructive criticism, nothing more.

And #25 depends entirely on Bannan/Okoye.

You land Bannan and not Okoye? You've got to get Cox because the other UTs are risky.

You land Okoye and not Bannan? Should really consider a jump up for Brockers, or maybe take the gamble on Poe.

Get both? Then you get to play it easy like a fox already in the hen house when the farmer locks up for the night. Take the best guy available regardless of position. Maybe an offensive weapon, maybe additional line depth. I'd personally still like a commitment to the DT position long term, but it goes from "if we don't take one we're going to suck" to "it'd be nice, but we've patched over the holes for at least another year".

My fear is they sign neither, bring Thomas back cheap, and then act like DT has been addressed until round 4 or 5 when they take one low upside guy and then bring a couple UDFAs into camp. My hope is that Del Rio's presence and ability to spot DTs will end the fear of spending any real value on the position.

I really think Brockers will be there @25.
I see more teams going WR, OL, DE and CB.. Which is standard, but I think many will assume the draft is deep and go with other positions. Cox and Poe will be gone so Brockers offers a NT, then UT value would be later and like you said hopefully Okoye comes.

Who do you like after Cox at UT, assume no Okoye and then do one assuming Okoye.

Drek
04-06-2012, 12:08 PM
I really think Brockers will be there @25.
I see more teams going WR, OL, DE and CB.. Which is standard, but I think many will assume the draft is deep and go with other positions. Cox and Poe will be gone so Brockers offers a NT, then UT value would be later and like you said hopefully Okoye comes.

Who do you like after Cox at UT, assume no Okoye and then do one assuming Okoye.

Brockers could find himself going to a 3-4 team wanting a DE well before us. That is the real concern I have here. Poe is obviously a target for 3-4 teams as a NT. Cox could wind up as a 3-4 end, he's played both end and DT in college, is athletic enough, and has the height most 3-4 teams love to see at end. Even Still or Kendall Reyes might pique the interest of 3-4 teams as DEs. The talent that we view as interior DL other teams view as end players, and depending on the 3-4 teams needs the value at DT might play out a lot of different ways.

Add that this draft isn't the most flush with LBs, 3-4 or 4-3, in the first round and that the DE class isn't the best group in the world either. Teams looking for front seven help are going to give all these DTs a LONG look.

My bet is Brockers goes in the mid-teens to a 3-4 team because his athleticism and ball awareness would play great as a 5 tech.

Cox is probably going in that same range or a little earlier, could go to either a 3-4 or a 4-3 team.

At that point if push comes to shove I'd probably settle on Worthy. He seems to have a high football IQ for a DL and has good explosion. His motor is kinda ****ty so he'd be a situational guy, but in a limited role as an attacking DT he could deliver some big plays while getting to mature and develop the stamina to be a more frequent contributor.

This is because to me the DTs behind Brockers and Cox who have first round grades stack up as follows:

Worthy - Second highest ceiling, highest floor. Good explosion, seems like he'd learn well, no huge red flags.

Poe - Highest ceiling, lowest floor. Did nothing in college but has all world athleticism. If someone can teach him that playing defense is about getting to the football he might be amazing. As it is he's a big risk.

Still - Third highest ceiling, second lowest floor. His injury history for a person so young who has to carry so much weight terrifies me. Like the player, hate the knees. If it wasn't for that he might be my preference.

Reyes - Lowest ceiling, second highest floor. Strikes me as a work horse who will be a solid but unspectacular NFL player. If he is what we need at DT it's because we didn't do a good job at all in FA and need someone who can play a lot of snaps without being a handicap, not a guy who can impact the opposing offense in negative ways.

pricejj
04-06-2012, 12:16 PM
...

1. I think KC will pick Brockers (they had dinner with him after his Pro Day).
2. Cox will be gone in the top 15.
3. Poe may fall, scared he will bust.
4. Aren't you worried about Worthy's 31 tackles 3.5 sacks at the college level? Quite low.
5. Devon Still is a better player than Worthy, but scared of injury history.
6. Kendall Reyes may have better upside than Worthy, due to his lengthy frame and athleticism?


7. Of course, hoping the Broncos sign Okoye and Bannan, so we can be "like a fox in the henhouse", as you say, and go BPA.

Drek
04-06-2012, 02:17 PM
1. I think KC will pick Brockers (they had dinner with him after his Pro Day).
2. Cox will be gone in the top 15.
3. Poe may fall, scared he will bust.
4. Aren't you worried about Worthy's 31 tackles 3.5 sacks at the college level? Quite low.
5. Devon Still is a better player than Worthy, but scared of injury history.
6. Kendall Reyes may have better upside than Worthy, due to his lengthy frame and athleticism?


7. Of course, hoping the Broncos sign Okoye and Bannan, so we can be "like a fox in the henhouse", as you say, and go BPA.

The thing for me with Worthy is this. The Spartans led the Big Ten in rushing D, total D, and sacks. They've been a strong defense for Worthy's entire time there. The only other guy who is getting a realistic shot at the pros from there this year is a free safety.

So how the hell did a team without a host of elite talent do so well defensively in a strong conference?

In 2011 Worthy was a consensus first team All-American. He was an All Big Ten first team selection by both the coaches and media.

In 2010 he was honorable mention All Big Ten as a sophomore in a season where he had 4 sacks.

In 2009 he was a first team Freshman All-American and a Freshman All Big Ten selection. Had another 4.5 sacks that year.

What this says to me is that he got a ton of respect from day one and it only grew within the coaching ranks of the Big Ten. You see that confirmed in how frequently he was double teamed within a conference known for quality OL play. So to me his stats aren't the be all end all way to evaluate Worthy. He's a disruptive player who actually seems to have a real head for the game, a rarity on the DL.

I see him kind of as the opposite of Dontario Poe. Poe does nothing to impress you on tape but he blew up the combine. Worthy's combine does nothing to impress you and on paper the stats are good, not great. But on tape you see a guy with great snap anticipation, a nose for the ball, and who at times knifes through double teams with ease. I prefer those kinds of guys over the boom/bust gambles like Poe.

Still's injury history just scares me away. Lower body issues for big guys just doesn't seem like a good path to start down.

Reyes seems like a very good 5-tech possibility to me. As an interior player I just don't think he's got the explosion and snap anticipation of Cox, Worthy, or Still. He's a fighter and a worker, probably the best motor at DT in this class, and it's paired with some good athleticism. But how does that play at interior DT? If I was ranking these guys for a 3-4 front Reyes would probably top the list.

But then it's all just my opinion and I don't love any of them, this is why I've said we need to sell out for Cox if we don't add some worthwhile DT options in FA.

pricejj
04-06-2012, 03:13 PM
The thing for me with Worthy is this. The Spartans led the Big Ten in rushing D, total D, and sacks. They've been a strong defense for Worthy's entire time there. The only other guy who is getting a realistic shot at the pros from there this year is a free safety.

So how the hell did a team without a host of elite talent do so well defensively in a strong conference?

In 2011 Worthy was a consensus first team All-American. He was an All Big Ten first team selection by both the coaches and media.

In 2010 he was honorable mention All Big Ten as a sophomore in a season where he had 4 sacks.

In 2009 he was a first team Freshman All-American and a Freshman All Big Ten selection. Had another 4.5 sacks that year.

What this says to me is that he got a ton of respect from day one and it only grew within the coaching ranks of the Big Ten. You see that confirmed in how frequently he was double teamed within a conference known for quality OL play. So to me his stats aren't the be all end all way to evaluate Worthy. He's a disruptive player who actually seems to have a real head for the game, a rarity on the DL.

I see him kind of as the opposite of Dontario Poe. Poe does nothing to impress you on tape but he blew up the combine. Worthy's combine does nothing to impress you and on paper the stats are good, not great. But on tape you see a guy with great snap anticipation, a nose for the ball, and who at times knifes through double teams with ease. I prefer those kinds of guys over the boom/bust gambles like Poe.

Awesome, thank you. I have been searching for someone who can articulate this to me for some time.

Very interesting analysis. Until now, I have considered that Worthy's snap anticipation would not translate to the NFL. I have thought that Worthy's unimpressive stats and combine would cause him to be somewhat of a non-factor in the NFL. However, you are correct that he does seem to know the game very well, and he is able to utilize leverage in certain situations to his advantage...not the typical brute. Very interesting points about Worthy's All-American status. There is no way for me to know what kind of offensive game planning Big 10 coaches do to try to neutralize him. I didn't see constant double teaming on tape, but perhaps I didn't observe well enough. If he is indeed as good as is implied, then there is a good chance he will begin to creep up boards, much like Cox already has.

I want no piece of Poe...there are tons of fat guys, not all of them are great football players. Although he may turn out to be a decent NT, the guy is not at all on par with a Casey Hampton, or BJ Raji, I hope he gets picked before #25.


Still's injury history just scares me away. Lower body issues for big guys just doesn't seem like a good path to start down.

Agreed, although I wouldn't be extremely disappointed if the Broncos pick him. He is a difference maker, if he can stay healthy.


Reyes seems like a very good 5-tech possibility to me. As an interior player I just don't think he's got the explosion and snap anticipation of Cox, Worthy, or Still. He's a fighter and a worker, probably the best motor at DT in this class, and it's paired with some good athleticism. But how does that play at interior DT? If I was ranking these guys for a 3-4 front Reyes would probably top the list.

But then it's all just my opinion and I don't love any of them, this is why I've said we need to sell out for Cox if we don't add some worthwhile DT options in FA.

I believe Cox to be a poor man's Marcel Dareus...I think he will go #9 overall. No way the Broncos can afford to move up that far. I don't think there is any draft scenario, that would enable the Broncos to move up far enough to get him.

I think Del Rio has to be happy with his gamble on Alualu...I think he would regard Worthy as a very similar player, with a minimal bust factor.

Natedogg
04-06-2012, 03:46 PM
Been the norm for several years around here. Can't get over how long my ignore list has become, comical actually. I get to page 3-4 and suddenly, everything becomes just poster names with no content. Sigh :notthissh, is what it is I guess.

Because every post tends to evolve into a crap fest, I read itsalloverfatman.com and there comments way more than the Mane. Lots of old mane posters (HercRoccafeller, RoyalewithChease off the top of my head) post in the comments at iaofm regularly. It's pretty much "football only" over there.

Check it out if you haven't. Way way better than Mile High Report.

Dutch
04-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Because every post tends to evolve into a crap fest, I read itsalloverfatman.com and there comments way more than the Mane. Lots of old mane posters (HercRoccafeller, RoyalewithChease off the top of my head) post in the comments at iaofm regularly. It's pretty much "football only" over there.

Check it out if you haven't. Way way better than Mile High Report.

Yeah, I have all three open pretty much all day every day. Been a member of both since about day one. Used to hang out on the Broncos Freaks site back when it was kicking as well. Just a bit of a bummer as this place has always had more of a community vibe to it, where the others are very Broncos-centric. Not a bad thing at all. Just a different "feel" to this place, especially in the off season. Sadly, that "feel" has been sliding downhill since the firing of Shannahan. Went way down during the McDouch era. Then the Tebow acolytes decended on us, with their ignorance of our franchise and loud disrespecting of our front office. With the haters right on their heels. Let the disolving of every thread turn into a pissing contest again. Now we get the Manning followers, who by and large have been a big improvement over the Teboners. However, there is still too much of the snarky crap talking going on with many of them (I'm looking at you, Bmore). Just nostalgic for the days when this site was populated by some very knowledgeable long time fans (Pre-Super Bowl wins). We spent less time watching threads disolve into pissing contests and more time with quality discussions on the Broncos and a wide range of topics. I'll get over it, and I'll still be here. Just not as enjoyable as it used to be. Rev would accuse me of suffering from senior something.;D

Natedogg
04-06-2012, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I have all three open pretty much all day every day. Been a member of both since about day one. Used to hang out on the Broncos Freaks site back when it was kicking as well. Just a bit of a bummer as this place has always had more of a community vibe to it, where the others are very Broncos-centric. Not a bad thing at all. Just a different "feel" to this place, especially in the off season. Sadly, that "feel" has been sliding downhill since the firing of Shannahan. Went way down during the McDouch era. Then the Tebow acolytes decended on us, with their ignorance of our franchise and loud disrespecting of our front office. With the haters right on their heels. Let the disolving of every thread turn into a pissing contest again. Now we get the Manning followers, who by and large have been a big improvement over the Teboners. However, there is still too much of the snarky crap talking going on with many of them (I'm looking at you, Bmore). Just nostalgic for the days when this site was populated by some very knowledgeable long time fans (Pre-Super Bowl wins). We spent less time watching threads disolve into pissing contests and more time with quality discussions on the Broncos and a wide range of topics. I'll get over it, and I'll still be here. Just not as enjoyable as it used to be. Rev would accuse me of suffering from senior something.;D

Yep. Absolutely.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2012, 06:00 PM
You mean Karl Klug, the guy who started 1 game out of 16 for Tennessee last year? (http://www.nfl.com/player/karlklug/2495300/profile)

OUCH Bmore!!! He said earlier you didn't fully research your points, but that is ridiculous .. :~ohyah!:


Substance-wise this is a great thread, thanks everybody.

CEH
04-06-2012, 06:12 PM
OUCH Bmore!!! He said earlier you didn't fully research your points, but that is ridiculous .. :~ohyah!:
.

Don't forget he concluded his great research with "you stupid ****."

Broncos_OTM
04-06-2012, 06:41 PM
Bmore thinks he's smarter then all y'all.

lonestar
04-06-2012, 06:48 PM
Bmore thinks he's smarter then all y'all.

probably is..

OM has some really great posters but not many..

Gets way to personal, way to fast ..

Folks forget that their ideas are not the only ones and when someone disagrees the asshat and worse commentary comes out.. and then it really goes down hill..

Broncos_OTM
04-06-2012, 06:49 PM
I enjoy good debate, that is why I always respond to people's responses to me, or points I see others make that are worth discussing. I'm verbose but that doesn't bother me in the least.


You said that any DT they'd take early would be minimized by signing Bannan. Any DT they draft early who plays in 2012 is likely to be a UT. Hence why the two are completely unrelated. Your original point didn't make sense. Accept it.


In fact, I always read and re-read before I respond to make sure I garner the full context of a given post.


You mean Karl Klug, the guy who started 1 game out of 16 for Tennessee last year? (http://www.nfl.com/player/karlklug/2495300/profile), or are you saying that your perception of the Titan's starting roster differs from the NFL's?

Sen'Derrick Marks started 9 games at DT, Jason Jones started a combination of his 13 games at DE and DT. Klug started one game all year.

He is a great example of a NON-STARTER having year one impact though. Only 20 tackles but 7 sacks and 2 forced fumbles. Non-starter but he was such an impact player YOU thought he was a starter. Hence why this claim that the first three rounds needs to produce starters is idiotic.



See above on how you fail at checking your own facts.


Using the draft like this is an excellent way to become a cellar dweller in short order. I have faith that the Broncos FO will look for impact players (regardless of if they can "start" or not) early on but the goal throughout the draft will be to get the best player overall, not the best rookie year.


So you can't handle constructive criticism and debate on a public forum? This isn't your blog man. If you don't want responses don't post.

See, this is what I was referencing. Someone gives you blunt critique and you respond like a child. No one gives a **** that you're a Manning fan. People don't respect you because your first post you claimed to have great insight, try to act like you have great insight, and yet have failed to provide any of it.

You don't know the Broncos players very well. You don't know the Broncos defensive scheme very well. Despite that you're unwilling to listen when others point out where you are in error. That makes for ****ty posting.

I stopprd taking him seriously after his post about hightower

Drek
04-06-2012, 07:47 PM
OUCH Bmore!!! He said earlier you didn't fully research your points, but that is ridiculous .. :~ohyah!:


Substance-wise this is a great thread, thanks everybody.

We're back on the topic of DTs now, lets not go back to the pissing contests.

Awesome, thank you. I have been searching for someone who can articulate this to me for some time.

Very interesting analysis. Until now, I have considered that Worthy's snap anticipation would not translate to the NFL. I have thought that Worthy's unimpressive stats and combine would cause him to be somewhat of a non-factor in the NFL. However, you are correct that he does seem to know the game very well, and he is able to utilize leverage in certain situations to his advantage...not the typical brute. Very interesting points about Worthy's All-American status. There is no way for me to know what kind of offensive game planning Big 10 coaches do to try to neutralize him. I didn't see constant double teaming on tape, but perhaps I didn't observe well enough. If he is indeed as good as is implied, then there is a good chance he will begin to creep up boards, much like Cox already has.
I wouldn't say he was constantly double teamed, but then the Big Ten is a conference full of future NFL O-linemen. Its not like he was facing conference USA guys when he was a disruptive force. When a legit Big Ten team (Penn State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, etc. the schools that compete every year) actually double up on you ever that is a serious compliment to a DT. Say what you will about the decline of the Big Ten, they still grow more than their fair share of quality OL in those states and at those schools. He wasn't facing pushovers and those future NFLers didn't win the battles with Worthy on a reliable basis.

I want no piece of Poe...there are tons of fat guys, not all of them are great football players. Although he may turn out to be a decent NT, the guy is not at all on par with a Casey Hampton, or BJ Raji, I hope he gets picked before #25.
As do I, and I'd expect some 3-4 team with a hole at NT to do just that. He's got Haloti Ngata/BJ Raji athleticism for his size but he has none of their football IQ.

Agreed, although I wouldn't be extremely disappointed if the Broncos pick him. He is a difference maker, if he can stay healthy.
I wouldn't be upset about it either, I'd just cross my fingers and hope his turf toe heals sooner than later.

I believe Cox to be a poor man's Marcel Dareus...I think he will go #9 overall. No way the Broncos can afford to move up that far. I don't think there is any draft scenario, that would enable the Broncos to move up far enough to get him.
He might go that high but it's hard to tell at this point. Honestly, the talent grouping from somewhere in the 7 to 30 in this draft is as tight as I've ever seen. Luck, RG3, Trent Richardson, Kalil, Blackmon, and Claiborne are unquestioned top 10 guys, but after that its a lot of guys who are establishing a pecking order, but one that I think different clubs will have a LOT of variability in.

I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if the Broncos trade back out of the first because this seems like the draft where some team picking in the top 15 or so is going to make a tough call on two guys they love and then 10 picks later the other guy is still there and they start drooling. There is no clear top 10, top 15, top 20, etc.. I mean, some people project Worthy to be a high teens/low twenties guy and others are saying he might slide out of the first completely. Some say Brockers is an early teens guy, others think he might be on the board in the mid-20's. Some think Malcolm Floyd is going to be the 1B to Blackmon's 1A at WR, others think he'll fall in the mid-teens. There has even been talk of teams not wanting to use a top 5 pick on Richardson. The first round is going to be fascinating all the way through this year.

I think Del Rio has to be happy with his gamble on Alualu...I think he would regard Worthy as a very similar player, with a minimal bust factor.
Possibly, and that is a gamble you'd feel even better making at #25 instead of #11 if you get the same payoff. I'm interested in who Del Rio wants from the first but I think I might be even more interested in who he wants in the mid-rounds. You could make an argument that Knighton is the better DT in Jacksonville right now and he was a 4th round pick.

Landing Bannan at least as some level of NT protection is essential to all this though. Getting him or Okoye at a minimum gives at least basic protection to not pass up a significantly better player sliding into our laps just because we're so DT starved. If someone like Gilmore, Kirkpatrick, Floyd, or Kuechly went into a slide and fell into our laps I'd hate to see us pass just because we've failed to add even journeyman DTs.

pricejj
04-06-2012, 11:47 PM
I wouldn't say he was constantly double teamed, but then the Big Ten is a conference full of future NFL O-linemen. Its not like he was facing con

Looking back at the Worthy tape I could find on the web several things stand out:

1. Jerel is very intelligent
2. Against Ohio State and Georgia (2011), Worthy affected a good majority of plays, either getting double-teamed or driving the opposing lineman backward almost every play.
3. He didn't fair very well against Wisconsin. Montee Ball had 4 rushing touchdowns straight up the middle, that Worthy had no effect on. The Wisconsin OL was just too dominant, as Wilson and Co. piled up 42 points.
4. Worthy made All-American in 2011 in nearly every publication that matters.
5. Mike Tomlin was the only head coach to attend MSU's Pro Day, personally patting Worthy on the back at the end of drills. I think the Steelers tell him to put on 15 lbs., and take him at #24 to replace Casey Hampton

BroncoBuff
04-07-2012, 02:07 AM
Checked Worthy's college numbers ... only 4 categories, but his seasons are basically identical.

Not sure if it's good or bad, but he's definitely consistent.



http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/496/worthy.jpg

Drek
04-07-2012, 03:17 AM
5. Mike Tomlin was the only head coach to attend MSU's Pro Day, personally patting Worthy on the back at the end of drills. I think the Steelers tell him to put on 15 lbs., and take him at #24 to replace Casey Hampton

Seems very likely. Worthy is on the shorter side for what most 3-4 teams like on the line, but that didn't stop the Steelers from taking Ziggy Hood, a guy most wrote off as lacking the length/height to be a 5 tech. He started 14 games for them last year and 9 the year before that.

CEH
04-07-2012, 07:02 AM
Checked Worthy's college numbers ... only 4 categories, but his seasons are basically identical.

Not sure if it's good or bad, but he's definitely consistent.



http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/496/worthy.jpg

Didn't both Worthy and Still play against the Badgers? Wisconsin always has a great Oline. Probably as close as you can get to a Pro line. The G/C in the NFL are so superior to anything these guys see in college

Anyone watch both players play the Badgers?

Not sure I want a DT at #25. We know Fox won't reach espcially if there is a better skilled offensive player at #25 which I'm sure there will be


I'm guessing here but I bet Still played better than Worthy. Neither probably dominated but I bet Still stood his ground better

TheReverend
04-07-2012, 07:42 AM
Didn't both Worthy and Still play against the Badgers? Wisconsin always has a great Oline. Probably as close as you can get to a Pro line. The G/C in the NFL are so superior to anything these guys see in college

Anyone watch both players play the Badgers?

Not sure I want a DT at #25. We know Fox won't reach espcially if there is a better skilled offensive player at #25 which I'm sure there will be


I'm guessing here but I bet Still played better than Worthy. Neither probably dominated but I bet Still stood his ground better

http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/penn-st-nittany-lions/2011/11/22/2580987/penn-state-vs-wisconsin-big-ten-championship-devon-still-tom-bradley-bret-bielema

Devon played better individually, but both teams got blown out defensively (PSU even worse, but that was massively a team in turmoil by that point of the season).

Much MORE impressive was how hard Devon raped Pouncey the year prior vs UF.

DENVERDUI55
04-07-2012, 07:45 AM
http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/penn-st-nittany-lions/2011/11/22/2580987/penn-state-vs-wisconsin-big-ten-championship-devon-still-tom-bradley-bret-bielema

Devon played better individually, but both teams got blown out defensively (PSU even worse, but that was massively a team in turmoil by that point of the season).

Much MORE impressive was how hard DevonSANDUSKY'D Pouncey the year prior vs UF.

I helped you out REV. I'd be happy with Still or Worthy at 25.

CEH
04-07-2012, 07:54 AM
http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/penn-st-nittany-lions/2011/11/22/2580987/penn-state-vs-wisconsin-big-ten-championship-devon-still-tom-bradley-bret-bielema

Devon played better individually, but both teams got blown out defensively (PSU even worse, but that was massively a team in turmoil by that point of the season).

Much MORE impressive was how hard Devon raped Pouncey the year prior vs UF.

Thanks for the info

CEH
04-07-2012, 07:58 AM
Landing Bannan at least as some level of NT protection is essential to all this though. Getting him or Okoye at a minimum gives at least basic protection to not pass up a significantly better player sliding into our laps just because we're so DT starved. If someone like Gilmore, Kirkpatrick, Floyd, or Kuechly went into a slide and fell into our laps I'd hate to see us pass just because we've failed to add even journeyman DTs.

I have a feeling the 2 CBs will go right in front of us to teams like Cincy and Det. Would love Gillmore at #25 even in a slight trade up in front of DET

TheReverend
04-07-2012, 08:00 AM
I helped you out REV. I'd be happy with Still or Worthy at 25.

Big help ::)

Bmore Manning
04-07-2012, 09:14 AM
I have watched and rewatched game tape of these guys and have put together my list of top DTs and the positions I think they are better suited for and the order of importance to the broncos.

1. Michael Brockers NT or UT
2. Fletcher Cox UT
3. Devon Still UT
4. Brandon Thompson NT
5. Dontario Poe NT
6. Jerel Worthy UT
7. Kendal Reyes UT

I really really was impressed with Brockers, he us the real deal, and despite Stills injuries in the past, I would take a chance on him if Brockers and Cox were gone. I would like to leave the first round with either one of these two, and take Thompson in the second.
Brockers/ Thompson or Still/ Thompson would be unreal! And Denver could start both!

Broncojef
04-07-2012, 09:30 AM
I really hope another team takes both Poe and Still prior to our pick at 25. I'd prefer Brockers Thompson and Worthy in that order. I still think the Broncos take offense with the second pick and might even trade up to get a Miller type guy. I've seen a few mock drafts lately where Stephon Hill is our guy so who knows. Willing to bet we don't take two DTs in the first and second.

Bmore Manning
04-07-2012, 09:37 AM
I really hope another team takes both Poe and Still prior to our pick at 25. I'd prefer Brockers Thompson and Worthy in that order. I still think the Broncos take offense with the second pick and might even trade up to get a Miller type guy. I've seen a few mock drafts lately where Stephon Hill is our guy so who knows. Willing to bet we don't take two DTs in the first and second.

You could be right, that's just what I would do. Still or Brockers 1/Thompson 2.
In a ZBS I see less value from a RB, and see value with a 3-5 round RB.

pricejj
04-07-2012, 10:27 AM
Didn't both Worthy and Still play against the Badgers? Wisconsin always has a great Oline. Probably as close as you can get to a Pro line. The G/C in the NFL are so superior to anything these guys see in college

Anyone watch both players play the Badgers?


Worthy - I was only able to find highlights of the Big 10 Championship. Montee Ball had 4 rushing touchdowns straight up the middle. Worthy did not have an effect on any of those 4 plays. He overran the play twice, and was double-teamed on one. Stats give credit to Worthy for 1 solo, and 1 assisted tackle. Other than Wisconsin, Worthy played well almost dominating football, while driving his man upfield, or getting double-teamed against Ohio State, and Georgia.

Still - I did not see any highlights of the game vs. Wisconsin, but I know Still was suffering through a high-ankle sprain the last 3 games of the season (including the Wisconsin game). Like Worthy, he was credited with 1 solo, and 1 assisted tackle.

TheReverend
04-07-2012, 10:40 AM
Worthy - I was only able to find highlights of the Big 10 Championship. Montee Ball had 4 rushing touchdowns straight up the middle. Worthy did not have an effect on any of those 4 plays. He overran the play twice, and was double-teamed on one. Stats give credit to Worthy for 1 solo, and 1 assisted tackle. Other than Wisconsin, Worthy played well almost dominating football, while driving his man upfield, or getting double-teamed against Ohio State, and Georgia.

Still - I did not see any highlights of the game vs. Wisconsin, but I know Still was suffering through a high-ankle sprain the last 3 games of the season (including the Wisconsin game). Like Worthy, he was credited with 1 solo, and 1 assisted tackle.

And a half sack (one of the VERY few defensive plays of the day)

BroncoMan4ever
04-07-2012, 11:09 AM
I like Still a lot, but I really want Fletcher Cox. Although at this point with how the DL looks, I will do a happy dance regardless of who we pick as long as he plays DT.

barryr
04-07-2012, 11:13 AM
Worthy - I was only able to find highlights of the Big 10 Championship. Montee Ball had 4 rushing touchdowns straight up the middle. Worthy did not have an effect on any of those 4 plays. He overran the play twice, and was double-teamed on one. Stats give credit to Worthy for 1 solo, and 1 assisted tackle. Other than Wisconsin, Worthy played well almost dominating football, while driving his man upfield, or getting double-teamed against Ohio State, and Georgia.

Still - I did not see any highlights of the game vs. Wisconsin, but I know Still was suffering through a high-ankle sprain the last 3 games of the season (including the Wisconsin game). Like Worthy, he was credited with 1 solo, and 1 assisted tackle.

I like Reyes over both Worthy and Still.

pricejj
04-07-2012, 11:59 AM
I like Reyes over both Worthy and Still.

The only game I can find of his is against Pitt (2010).