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Bronco Rob
04-04-2012, 07:07 AM
Jake Plummer Shares Views On Manning, Tebow


April 2, 2012 8:34 PM




DENVER (CBS4) – Jake Plummer was 39-15 as the Denver Broncos starting quarterback before losing his job to Jay Cutler. Plummer then just walked away from the game, which not many athletes do when they are still in their prime.

CBS4′s Vic Lombardi caught up with Plummer last week and sat down with him for a one-on-one interview. His first question was if he missed playing the game — not the fame and the money — but the actual game.

“That’s hard to say. Growing up that’s all I did was compete. You’re missing that feeling of fans that believe, the energy that’s building and the momentum that’s starts to build; to never give up and to fight and win, even against all odds,” Plummer said. “When you get guys believing in you — that feeling — you miss that like crazy.”


Plummer is still popular in Denver as many fans thought he got a raw deal with he lost the starting job.

“In that exact moment it was hard because I wasn’t slighted by anybody in the town. It wasn’t the town’s decision, it was the head coach’s decision; and they believed the head coach,” he said. “(Mike) Shanahan had a track record that proved he could win … of course I was mad and I wanted to take off right then. I didn’t even want to be there for the end of it.”

Plummer said he knows there are a lot of great fans in Denver.

I wouldn’t have been able to do what I did without all of their energy and all of their support. I saw it happen with Tim Tebow. When someone’s down and against all odds and people believe, it’s a powerful thing. I know I had a lot of great fans who believed in me.”

Lombardi asked Plummer if he thinks Tebow can succeed in New York.

“What a stage to succeed one. New York is not the easiest to place to play … you never know. The kid works hard, he believes in himself; his teammates buy into what he believes in … bottom line, if you want to win and your teammates believe in you, you’re going to have success.”

Plummer said he’s also a big Peyton Manning fan.

“I’ve always marveled at his ability to go out on the field when there’s so much going on and watching him for the past five years,” he said. “I’ve been in those situations and the guy is just as cool as a cat. I never felt how he looks.”

Lombardi asked Plummer if he gave him a helmet and shoulder pads if he could go out and play an NFL game this week.

“Oh yeah. I’d be sore afterwards.”



Link to Video Interview. http://denver.cbslocal.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6900724

broncocalijohn
04-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Either we care what Plummer has to say because many are still fans of his or we ask you, "WHo gives a ****?" I like Plummer and was hoping for some major bashing of at least one of the QBs. Too much ass kissing in that article. Thread won't go far now unless there is a controversy.

bronco militia
04-04-2012, 12:27 PM
welcome to last week...

fyi, we landed on the moon

Cleo McDowell
04-04-2012, 12:27 PM
very much looking forward to Jeb Putzier's views on Manning and Tebow as well

Taco John
04-04-2012, 12:34 PM
A hobo rambled through town. He passed by my house, had a cigarette on my front lawn, and I paid him to mow it for a couple weeks. Four years later, I planted a tree in the front lawn. I hunted that hobo down for months to ask him what he thought of it.

Bacchus
04-04-2012, 12:42 PM
I wonder what Craig Morton and Bubby Brister think about Tebow and Manning.

lonestar
04-04-2012, 12:46 PM
once again there will be folks that liked the guy and his will to win..

and there will be guys that hated him because, well he did not act the part of a moron player..

he did what he did on sunday and because of that we won a lot of games..

after getting serious in 2005 sitting down with Kubes to study film, he had his best year.. But that was not good enough for mikey he got a hard on for cutlet and the rest was history..


It was a well-known fact that mikey and JAke did not get along well as Jake did not live and breathe football 24/7 like mikey did..
Who was right?

Jake retired with more money than he could ever spend is living the good life, hot wife and not in the big city..

mikey on the other hand is getting his ass kicked weekly and hoping that RG3 is the next coming of Elway.. Frankly I'll bet he will **** up that wet dream also..

Miss I.
04-04-2012, 12:46 PM
A hobo rambled through town. He passed by my house, had a cigarette on my front lawn, and I paid him to mow it for a couple weeks. Four years later, I planted a tree in the front lawn. I hunted that hobo down for months to ask him what he thought of it.

Your love for Jake is complicated isn't it? ;D

You know bizarrely, my grandparents had both a dog named Jake and a dog named Hobo. Hmm, I need to ponder the deeper meaning of this...:curtsey:

Jason in LA
04-04-2012, 01:03 PM
… of course I was mad and I wanted to take off right then. I didn’t even want to be there for the end of it.”



I'd say that Plummer checked out way before that moment, which made it obvious that the switch needed to be made.

Jason in LA
04-04-2012, 01:11 PM
after getting serious in 2005 sitting down with Kubes to study film, he had his best year.. But that was not good enough for mikey he got a hard on for cutlet and the rest was history..




That's not the way I saw it happening at all. Shanny, and Kubes, closed the playbook and ran the ball a lot more so that Plummer wouldn't trip over himself and cost them the game. Plummer threw for over 4000 yards and 27 TDs in '04, but he threw 20 picks, and like one of the most heated threads at the OM stated, he was a roadblock to the team. He didn't throw for nearly as many yards or TDs in '05, but that was his best year, because Shanny game planned his mistakes out of their game plan. Less of Plummer made the team much better in '05. I don't think Shanny thought that they could win the Super Bowl like that, so he went out to get a QB that he thought that he could run his entire playbook with.

55CrushEm
04-04-2012, 01:20 PM
once again there will be folks that liked the guy and his will to win..

he did what he did on sunday and because of that we won a lot of games..

after getting serious in 2005 sitting down with Kubes to study film, he had his best year.. But that was not good enough for mikey he got a hard on for cutlet and the rest was history..

..

Maybe the fact that he FINALLY started to do the "extra things" in 2005.....perhaps it was too little, too late.

The fact is he didn't do the extra things like Manning has his entire career....and it showed.

He also folded like a little bitch when we drafted Cutler.....couldn't handle the pressure of a young challenger over his shoulder.

Ashley Lelie bitched the same way when we brought in Javon Walker in 2006.

Gort
04-04-2012, 01:24 PM
http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-1.jpg?w=500&h=330

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-2.jpg?w=500&h=332

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http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-9.jpg?w=500&h=328

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-10.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-11.jpg?w=500&h=330

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-15.jpg?w=500&h=331

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-17.jpg?w=500&h=331

bendog
04-04-2012, 01:29 PM
welcome to last week...

fyi, we landed on the moon

DID NOT!

Rigs11
04-04-2012, 01:43 PM
welcome to last week...

fyi, we landed on the moon

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcsembRjVu1qe6o2ao1_500.jpg

Tombstone RJ
04-04-2012, 02:20 PM
http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-1.jpg?w=500&h=330

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-2.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-4.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-9.jpg?w=500&h=328

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-10.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-11.jpg?w=500&h=330

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-15.jpg?w=500&h=331

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-17.jpg?w=500&h=331

OMG that is awesome!! The bacon, the burger, the cheese... it's like the perfect combo. The you add in some onion rings and poof, dinner is served!!

Beantown Bronco
04-04-2012, 02:36 PM
I'll see your bacon cheeseburger and I'll raise you this:

http://wheretoeat.in/calendar/63/24-2012-Boston-Bacon-and-Beer-Festival/

broncosteven
04-04-2012, 02:37 PM
That's not the way I saw it happening at all. Shanny, and Kubes, closed the playbook and ran the ball a lot more so that Plummer wouldn't trip over himself and cost them the game. Plummer threw for over 4000 yards and 27 TDs in '04, but he threw 20 picks, and like one of the most heated threads at the OM stated, he was a roadblock to the team. He didn't throw for nearly as many yards or TDs in '05, but that was his best year, because Shanny game planned his mistakes out of their game plan. Less of Plummer made the team much better in '05. I don't think Shanny thought that they could win the Super Bowl like that, so he went out to get a QB that he thought that he could run his entire playbook with.

Once teams took his boot away and kept him in the pocket he was done in the NFL and he knew it. throw in the fact he didn't want to put the work in during the offseason and got butt-hurt when Shanny drafted Cutler. Jake Quit on us.

BroncoBeavis
04-04-2012, 02:40 PM
got butt-hurt when Shanny drafted Cutler. Jake Quit on us.

That's all it comes down to right there. Drafting Cutler changed everything.

bendog
04-04-2012, 02:41 PM
God damn football GM's getting players to make the team better ........

broncosteven
04-04-2012, 02:46 PM
That's all it comes down to right there. Drafting Cutler changed everything.

Actually I think it started with Pitt taking the Boot away from him in the AFCCG but came to a head when Shanny told him he wanted him to be at all of the voluntary offseason workouts and Plummer didn't want to. Shanny panicked and decided to throw Cutler in the mix to motivate him and as a back up option if(when) Plummer imploded. Rather than rise to the challenge Plummer imploded.

bendog
04-04-2012, 02:55 PM
Actually I think it started with Pitt taking the Boot away from him in the AFCCG but came to a head when Shanny told him he wanted him to be at all of the voluntary offseason workouts and Plummer didn't want to. Shanny panicked and decided to throw Cutler in the mix to motivate him and as a back up option if(when) Plummer imploded. Rather than rise to the challenge Plummer imploded.

Nah, I thought Shanny was so pissed off over Jake choking and then pretty much blowing off the notion that he'd better learn to make plays off the five step if he wanted to keep the job, that he was open to options. And then the crazy Tenn owner made Fisher take VY. Shanny and Fisher talked on a fairly regular basis and respected each other. If you saw Cutler at Vandy, you saw a guy who could make every throw, run pretty damn well, and who would get up after a sack and make a tough throw on the next play. There were stories of Shanny asking Fisher "is there any reason not to take this guy," and Fisher saying, "no." Shanny didn't have problems with Cutler in Den, and frankly after Elway, the lockerroom was really Shanny's and not any QB's, which was one of the problems .... but that's another story.

Cutler didn't like McDouche, and really no one should find that surprising, but after Bowlen tried to make McDouche work with him, and Cutler decided to go prima donna ....

And Cutler getting martz was just too rich. Careful what you ask for, Jay.

Chris
04-04-2012, 03:13 PM
That's not the way I saw it happening at all. Shanny, and Kubes, closed the playbook and ran the ball a lot more so that Plummer wouldn't trip over himself and cost them the game. Plummer threw for over 4000 yards and 27 TDs in '04, but he threw 20 picks, and like one of the most heated threads at the OM stated, he was a roadblock to the team. He didn't throw for nearly as many yards or TDs in '05, but that was his best year, because Shanny game planned his mistakes out of their game plan. Less of Plummer made the team much better in '05. I don't think Shanny thought that they could win the Super Bowl like that, so he went out to get a QB that he thought that he could run his entire playbook with.

This is exactly how I remember it.

bendog
04-04-2012, 03:15 PM
This is exactly how I remember it.

Agreed. Shanny was pissed though.

delany
04-04-2012, 03:26 PM
I can't wait until Morton, Ramsey and Johnson weigh in with their views on Manning and Tebow.

55CrushEm
04-04-2012, 03:32 PM
I'll see your bacon cheeseburger and I'll raise you this:

http://wheretoeat.in/calendar/63/24-2012-Boston-Bacon-and-Beer-Festival/

Holy ****, Bean! Nice find. I might actually have to go.....haha.

BroncoDoug
04-04-2012, 04:50 PM
http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-1.jpg?w=500&h=330

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-2.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-4.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-9.jpg?w=500&h=328

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-10.jpg?w=500&h=332

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-11.jpg?w=500&h=330

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-15.jpg?w=500&h=331

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/awesome-bacon-cheeseburger-how-to-diy-delicious-17.jpg?w=500&h=331

http://www.cuantocabron.com/images/templates/mother-of-god-template.jpg

Punisher
04-04-2012, 04:51 PM
OMG that is awesome!! The bacon, the burger, the cheese... it's like the perfect combo. The you add in some onion rings and poof, dinner is served!!

I just showed my girl friend its ON!

Jason in LA
04-04-2012, 05:14 PM
That's all it comes down to right there. Drafting Cutler changed everything.

I'd say that Plummer not playing up to par changed everything. That's what led to Cutler being drafted.

Bigloco
04-04-2012, 05:21 PM
I can't wait until Morton, Ramsey and Johnson weigh in with their views on Manning and Tebow.

And Otto Graham. I'm dying to see what he has to say about not only Manning and Tebow, but that Cheeseburger listed on the first page. I'm pretty sure OTTO FREAKIN GRAHAM knows that cheese belongs on the outside of the hamburger, not the inside!

Bronco Rob
04-04-2012, 10:56 PM
And Otto Graham. I'm dying to see what he has to say about not only Manning and Tebow, but that Cheeseburger listed on the first page. I'm pretty sure OTTO FREAKIN GRAHAM knows that cheese belongs on the outside of the hamburger, not the inside!




:pimp:

Anikai
04-04-2012, 11:08 PM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/Anikai83/Untitled-1-4.jpg

broncocalijohn
04-05-2012, 09:44 AM
OMG that is awesome!! The bacon, the burger, the cheese... it's like the perfect combo. The you add in some onion rings and poof, dinner is served!!

Dinner is served? You can't just end it there and not describe it correctly. "Heaven is served by Jesus!"

One of the few posts that long that can be quoted without complaining.

Meck77
04-05-2012, 09:50 AM
Here is what is funny about a thread like this. People go out of their way to point out that Jake Plummers opinion on the Broncos doesn't matter. Well he is a former professional NFL QB and arguably one of the better ones the Broncos have had by winning percentage if nothing else.

Does anyone's opinion here on the mane carry that type of clout or credibility.

NOPE. Just something to ponder next time you feel your opinion is so important.

Gort
04-05-2012, 09:51 AM
Here is what is funny about a thread like this. People go out of their way to point out that Jake Plummers opinion on the Broncos doesn't matter. Well he is a former professional NFL QB and arguably one of the better ones the Broncos have had by winning percentage if nothing else.

Does anyone's opinion here on the mane carry that type of clout or credibility.

NOPE. Just something to ponder next time you feel your opinion is so important.

in b4 somebody posts,

"... but i did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

lonestar
04-05-2012, 10:00 AM
That's not the way I saw it happening at all. Shanny, and Kubes, closed the playbook and ran the ball a lot more so that Plummer wouldn't trip over himself and cost them the game. Plummer threw for over 4000 yards and 27 TDs in '04, but he threw 20 picks, and like one of the most heated threads at the OM stated, he was a roadblock to the team. He didn't throw for nearly as many yards or TDs in '05, but that was his best year, because Shanny game planned his mistakes out of their game plan. Less of Plummer made the team much better in '05. I don't think Shanny thought that they could win the Super Bowl like that, so he went out to get a QB that he thought that he could run his entire playbook with.

I saw a guy that almost set an NFL record for passes between picks..

Someone that took care of the ball and did not just wing it like he had in the past..

Your correct his passing yardage was down.. BUT his QBR was way up second best of his career..



Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2005 Denver Broncos 16 16 277 456 60.7 3,366 7.4 18 7 22 135 90.2 46 151 3.3 2 4 2
2004 Denver Broncos 16 16 303 521 58.2 4,089 7.8 27 20 15 90 84.5 62 202 3.3 1 6 1



He had his best year as a pro..and that was because he and Kubes reviewed all of his plays as a pro and spent most of the off season studying film.

Since Kubes was the OC I'm guessing that he had more to do with the weekly game plan than mikey did.. That was recognized by the Texans and he was hired after the great season they had..

Off the top of my head you must be a cutlet fan..

Since I was not on the mane all that much during that time frame I can't attest to the "heated threads" but I know on other forums there were haters going back to the day he was signed..

I'd guess you were one of those also..

lonestar
04-05-2012, 10:13 AM
Maybe the fact that he FINALLY started to do the "extra things" in 2005.....perhaps it was too little, too late.

The fact is he didn't do the extra things like Manning has his entire career....and it showed.

He also folded like a little b**** when we drafted Cutler.....couldn't handle the pressure of a young challenger over his shoulder.

Ashley Lelie b****ed the same way when we brought in Javon Walker in 2006.

I guess you never understood that for Jake it was a game.. He marveled many time that he had never given playing pro ball much thought until he was drafted..

Then after that that they would pay him loads of money to do something he loved to do..

as for folding like bitch.. have you ever thought that he was smart enough to see that he was not going to get a reall chance to compete for the job.. that because of the new OC and the complete revamp of the play book forcing him to do something that was not natural for him NOR was the OL ready to do and that was be a drop back passer..

the writing was on the wall when Kubes left and the other moron was hired.. that his time was done in DEN..

The only reason that mikey did not start cutlet was he screwed that pooch before with greise.

He knew that he had to make it so untunable for the rest of the team that there would not be another revolt in the locker room.. Jake was a very respected leader in the locker room and he at at least made a go of it.. and frankly when the switch was made they still ahd a chance of winning the division.

At that point he obviously said screw it..

HE was going to retire at the end of the season one way or another..

Frankly with all the up front money he had received each time he re did his contract, he did not have to get the crap beat out of him each sunday..

Talk about who the smart one was.. IMO it was DEN loss and not his..

We got cry baby cutlet instead..

bendog
04-05-2012, 10:14 AM
I got chest pain looking at that. That said, my wife and daughter are out of town for the weekend, and my dog an I are dining on beer and ground sirloin. No beer for him.

milehighJC
04-05-2012, 04:12 PM
I never hated Plummer as much as many on the mane (yes, I was here, but REALLY didnt post much then). I did like watching him run that naked bootleg, he did it as well as anyone in the game.

IMHO, 2005 was the last year the Broncos were actually fun to watch until last year. There have been moments, but until last year there have been a lot of groans. Jake had his screw up moments, but so did Cutler.

Having said all that, this interview was a waste of internet bits. Jake made his choice, and moved on... so did the Broncos.

Circle Orange
04-05-2012, 07:46 PM
Show some love for Jake! Why, I put some of my best wigs on that man...!Booya!

Bronco_Beerslug
04-06-2012, 06:10 AM
I guess you never understood that for Jake it was a game.. He marveled many time that he had never given playing pro ball much thought until he was drafted..


Jake Plummer Flips Broncos the Finger (http://voices.yahoo.com/jake-plummer-flips-broncos-finger-232913.html)
The Denver Broncos tried to trade quarterback Jake Plummer.

But in Plummer's final farewell finger, Jake the Snake opted for retirement rather than let the Broncos get something good in return.

A number of reports cited a trade agreement between the Denver Broncos and Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and NFL.com reported the Broncos dealt Plummer to the Bucs for a conditional pick in the 2008 draft.

But last week on Plummer's Web site, Plummer said he was retiring.

"Jake Plummer, who started 136 games and threw for 29,253 yards as a quarterback ... announced his retirement today," read a statement on the home page of jakeplummerfoundation.org. "Football has been awesome to me in many ways. I leave the game with my health and happiness and look forward to the future; I've got many rivers to cross."

Plummer's relationship with Broncos fans was often tenuous, to put it mildly. Several seasons ago, Plummer flipped off the hometown fans. Then during last offseason, Plummer got into a road rage incident in Denver, where the allegations included Plummer kicking in a headlight of another motorist then backing his SUV into the motorist's vehicle. Plummer agreed to a plea deal for damaging the car's license plate frame.

Then came the on-field incidents. After the Broncos drafted Vanderbilt's Jay Cutler with their first round pick in 2006 (11th overall), fans immediately began calling for Plummer's benching.

Jake the Mistake or Jake the Fake, as he was referred to (there is an actual jakethemistake.com Web site), started the season and rode a solid defense to a 6-2 start. While the defense was drawing premature comparisons to the defense of the 1985 Chicago Bears, Plummer was throwing for eight touchdowns and seven interceptions. Hardly impressive stats.

Cont.


https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQI86N7am-fPbMv24UM2PT023nAmFh9odmkiz6SYyHzPsvlH1xb

bpc
04-06-2012, 07:54 AM
I love folks blasting Shanny for Fake's shortcomings as a qb. How many times are you going to roll up into the playoffs, get your head stomped before you make a change at qb? Jake was woeful under pressure. Manning eviscerated him twice, and even when Jake finally got a playoff win vs the Pats, he looked pathetic and his place should have cost us the game. Defense/Champ saved our ass. It only took Jake the mistake one more week to get us bounced from the playoffs with homefield advantage no less.

Folks just need to realize, Jake wasn't very good. The success Denver had was all Shanny/Kubes. If the playoff beat downs weren't enough to tell you why, look what Jake did when faced with a challenge. Dude packed his **** up and folded. What a loser.

Steve Sewell
04-06-2012, 08:10 AM
Once teams took his boot away and kept him in the pocket he was done in the NFL and he knew it. throw in the fact he didn't want to put the work in during the offseason and got butt-hurt when Shanny drafted Cutler. Jake Quit on us.

The one team that could never figure out the bootleg: the Chiefs. It was always hilarious playing against them with Plummer.

BroncoBeavis
04-06-2012, 08:59 AM
Manning eviscerated him twice,

Yeah, I forgot that we had Jake lined up at safety next to Lynch when we were giving up damn near 50 points a game to Peyton. :)

Jake put up a 103 rating in the second loss to the Colts. We were just totally outgunned across the board.

And it's not often you hear people cry about style points when beating the NE Patriots in the playoffs.

The Broncos won plenty of playoff games without Elway putting up HOF Stats. Teams are a bit tougher in the playoffs.

BroncoLifer
04-06-2012, 09:38 AM
I can't wait until Morton, Ramsey and Johnson weigh in with their views on Manning and Tebow.

Fortunately, we already know how Tripucka feels about Manning. But Tensi and Briscoe still silent.

bpc
04-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Yeah, I forgot that we had Jake lined up at safety next to Lynch when we were giving up damn near 50 points a game to Peyton. :)

Jake put up a 103 rating in the second loss to the Colts. We were just totally outgunned across the board.

And it's not often you hear people cry about style points when beating the NE Patriots in the playoffs.

The Broncos won plenty of playoff games without Elway putting up HOF Stats. Teams are a bit tougher in the playoffs.

Not going to say the defense was stellar. That's semi offpoint. You can point to qb ratings but I'm sure of you figure out the average between 03', 04', and 05', it's pretty pathetic. Brian Griese had a great qb rating. That means on third and ten you could have checked down, tossed the ball to the TE for five yds, punted and went about your day. Meanwhile Peyton just scored again. Rinse repeat rinse repeat. Mike got the clue that manufacturing an offense for a guy you signed to justify him was stupid and if Denver was ever going to advance, they needed to re-up for the arms race. A regular Joe wasn't going to beat Brady, Manning, Roethliberger or Rivers. Those guys have dominated the AFC Over the past ten years. Mike was right.

Meck77
04-06-2012, 10:21 AM
Not going to say the defense was stellar. That's semi offpoint. You can point to qb ratings but I'm sure of you figure out the average between 03', 04', and 05', it's pretty pathetic. Brian Griese had a great qb rating. That means on third and ten you could have checked down, tossed the ball to the TE, punted and went about your day. Meanwhile Peyton just scored again. Rinse repeat rinse repeat. Mike got the clue that manufacturing an offense for a guy you signed to justify him was stupid and if Denver was ever going to advance, they needed to re-up for the arms race. A regular Joe wasn't going to beat Brady, Manning, Roethliberger or Rivers. Those guys have dominated the AFC Over the past ten years. Mike was right.

I guess Mike is still "right" eh? Two years with the skins and he's racked up 11 wins with Grossman and McNabb. Grossman? Are you f'n kidding me? The game passed shanny by the moment Elway took landed in the endzone for the last time.

bpc
04-06-2012, 10:32 AM
At what point has Shanny had any capable options to work with? Meck, you sound like a bitter Jake fan. Shanny squeezed as many wins out of Jake as he could. That was magic in itself turning his career around. Unfortunately the playoffs often reveal the pretenders, which is exactly what Jake was.

Meck77
04-06-2012, 10:38 AM
At what point has Shanny had any capable options to work with? Meck, you sound like a bitter Jake fan. Shanny squeezed as many wins out of Jake as he could. That was magic in itself turning his career around. Unfortunately the playoffs often reveal the pretenders, which is exactly what Jake was.

Are you kidding me BPC? I'm one happy ass Broncos fan. Been that way for 30+ years. Elway, Tebow,Jake, Manning hell they'll be another dozen or so QBs before they bury me. It's a team sport at the end of the day.

I'm not really into the whole fantasy football view of NFL football that the internet has created. BPC when I was a kid in Denver that's all we knew. That's all we had.

I can't wait for the season to get started.

Tombstone RJ
04-06-2012, 10:45 AM
At what point has Shanny had any capable options to work with? Meck, you sound like a bitter Jake fan. Shanny squeezed as many wins out of Jake as he could. That was magic in itself turning his career around. Unfortunately the playoffs often reveal the pretenders, which is exactly what Jake was.

Shanny is a great QB coach and Jake is a good example. What Shanny is not is a great GM and the defenses proved that. He's also got a huge ego and this cripples him constantly. Take the Skins for instance, they brought in the headcase Haynseworth and they had a very good 4-3 defense. A defense Shanny is familiar with. So what does Shanny do? He throws a grenade into it and switchs to a base 3-4. Whatever, total ego.

I'm glad Shanny finally got the boot because his ego really is hampering his ability to build great teams.

broncocalijohn
04-06-2012, 10:49 AM
At what point has Shanny had any capable options to work with? Meck, you sound like a bitter Jake fan. Shanny squeezed as many wins out of Jake as he could. That was magic in itself turning his career around. Unfortunately the playoffs often reveal the pretenders, which is exactly what Jake was.

And when we had the chance to make the playoffs, his draft pick sucked out loud. Jake had issues but that 2005 season what awesome and Shanny deserves (with Kubiak) a lot of credit for making the playbook simplier for Plummer to ease up on the INTs and it worked great. We go into the next season winning again and he gets yanked. Cutler, by the end of his reign in Denver, did nothing to improve our playoff position. He made it worse by not even getting to the playoffs. This is when Shanny showed his loss for the game. I blindly backed him but see the light after the fact. Cutler fans might some day see it too.

broncosteven
04-06-2012, 10:55 AM
I guess Mike is still "right" eh? Two years with the skins and he's racked up 11 wins with Grossman and McNabb. Grossman? Are you f'n kidding me? The game passed shanny by the moment Elway took landed in the endzone for the last time.

I thought one of Shanny's top 3 coaching years was in 2005. He got a lot out of Plummer until teams started taking the boot away in 2006. He won a lot of games with a QB who didn't win a lot before coming to Denver.

BroncoBeavis
04-06-2012, 11:11 AM
Not going to say the defense was stellar. That's semi offpoint. You can point to qb ratings but I'm sure of you figure out the average between 03', 04', and 05', it's pretty pathetic. Brian Griese had a great qb rating. That means on third and ten you could have checked down, tossed the ball to the TE for five yds, punted and went about your day. Meanwhile Peyton just scored again. Rinse repeat rinse repeat. Mike got the clue that manufacturing an offense for a guy you signed to justify him was stupid and if Denver was ever going to advance, they needed to re-up for the arms race. A regular Joe wasn't going to beat Brady, Manning, Roethliberger or Rivers. Those guys have dominated the AFC Over the past ten years. Mike was right.

Our Regular Jake did beat Brady, who hasn't won one since he lost his defense. Big Ben has won more than Manning, with far more pedestrian numbers, because of his defense. And Jake played a bad game against PIT in that AFC Championship... but they had a knack for making good QB's look bad, which is why they knocked off Peyton Manning and the heavily favored Colts just a week earlier.

Great defense and a GOOD QB will win you far more championships than a great QB and mediocre defense. In my mind the only real strike against Jake in the playoffs is that one game vs Pittsburgh. But if one bad game against the Steelers in the playoffs means a guy should pack it in, what does that say about Manning... who after that loss to PIT was 3-6 in the playoffs, and had also never gone to a Super Bowl.

bpc
04-06-2012, 12:13 PM
Our Regular Jake did beat Brady, who hasn't won one since he lost his defense. Big Ben has won more than Manning, with far more pedestrian numbers, because of his defense. And Jake played a bad game against PIT in that AFC Championship... but they had a knack for making good QB's look bad, which is why they knocked off Peyton Manning and the heavily favored Colts just a week earlier.

Great defense and a GOOD QB will win you far more championships than a great QB and mediocre defense. In my mind the only real strike against Jake in the playoffs is that one game vs Pittsburgh. But if one bad game against the Steelers in the playoffs means a guy should pack it in, what does that say about Manning... who after that loss to PIT was 3-6 in the playoffs, and had also never gone to a Super Bowl.

I don't think you understand football.

You hype his 2004 performance vs. Indy because he had a 103.1 QB rating. IT WAS 35-3 INDY at HALFTIME! lol. Jake got some garbage TD's in the 3rd Qtr when Indy was playing prevent, trying to run out the clock from basically the 30 minute mark on. He was 6/14 w/ an INT that led to a Indy TD by halftime. Mind you, by the end of the game, this was his best playoff performance. Often, his playoff games went like this. Final result... LOSS. 24-49. Manning Stats: 27/33, 458 yds, 4 TD's, 1 TO.

03' Vs. Indy - 75 QB rating, 23/30, 181 (dink/dunk) 1 TD, 3 TO's. LOSS. 10-41. Manning stats : 22/26, 377 yds, 5 TD's, 0 TO's.

05' Vs. NE - 78.5 QB rating, 15/26, 1 TD/1 INT for 181 yards. Sadly, this was the best effort we could have every hoped for and why he was soon replaced. Taking the ball out of Jake's hands so he didn't harpoon the team was the best way to win. Unfortunately when you get to the playoffs against better teams and better QB's, that ish don't float. Denver escapes 27-13. Brady Stats : 20/36, 1TD, 2 INT's. (Great play by Champ which probably would have been a TD by the Patriots)

05' vs. Pittsburgh, AFC Championship Game, AT HOME : 66.4 QB rating, 18-30, 223yds, 1 TD, 4 TO's. Denver loses 17-34. Roethlisberger stats: 21/29, 275 yds, 2 TD's, 0 TO's.

It is conceivable to say that Plummer was outplayed in EVERY playoff game that he played in as a Bronco. Even the NE game which really turned on the Champ Bailey 85 yard INT return.

bpc
04-06-2012, 12:17 PM
Shanny is a great QB coach and Jake is a good example. What Shanny is not is a great GM and the defenses proved that. He's also got a huge ego and this cripples him constantly. Take the Skins for instance, they brought in the headcase Haynseworth and they had a very good 4-3 defense. A defense Shanny is familiar with. So what does Shanny do? He throws a grenade into it and switchs to a base 3-4. Whatever, total ego.

I'm glad Shanny finally got the boot because his ego really is hampering his ability to build great teams.

I won't disagree with this. I am a big Shanny fan but he definitely brought some baggage with him from Denver to Washington. Ultimately, it probably will hold him back in Washington. I'm still rooting like hell for him to score another super bowl win. I want Mike in the hall of fame when it's all said and done.

bpc
04-06-2012, 12:23 PM
And when we had the chance to make the playoffs, his draft pick sucked out loud. Jake had issues but that 2005 season what awesome and Shanny deserves (with Kubiak) a lot of credit for making the playbook simplier for Plummer to ease up on the INTs and it worked great. We go into the next season winning again and he gets yanked. Cutler, by the end of his reign in Denver, did nothing to improve our playoff position. He made it worse by not even getting to the playoffs. This is when Shanny showed his loss for the game. I blindly backed him but see the light after the fact. Cutler fans might some day see it too.

I will disagree with this. Cutler did not have the benefit of a defense like Plummer did. That defense ultimately faltered in the playoffs vs. Manning but he routinely made defenses look like asshole.

Cutler didn't have an OL, a defense, or a running game like Jake did. In fact, he was breaking in Marshall and a new WR. By the time Cutler had come of age, he was forced to carry a majority of the team unlike Jake, something he never could. Jake had some of the best running games in the league when he was in Denver. In fact, in 2005, he had 2 1000 yard rushers. Try to find that in the time that Cutler was here.

I won't make excuses for Cutler as he has obvious flaws but he was head and shoulders better than Jake. His 3rd year starting he threw for 4000 yds and 27 TD's while on his learning curve dealing with a crap load of injuries and no defense. If he could have stayed in Denver, he could have developed into Drew Brees lite. He's kind of a prick/emo but I don't question his work ethic or motive.

broncosteven
04-06-2012, 02:10 PM
Losing Al Wilson really hurt the D and Shanny never fielded a decent D after that

lonestar
04-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I will disagree with this. Cutler did not have the benefit of a defense like Plummer did. That defense ultimately faltered in the playoffs vs. Manning but he routinely made defenses look like a-hole.

Cutler didn't have an OL, a defense, or a running game like Jake did. In fact, he was breaking in Marshall and a new WR. By the time Cutler had come of age, he was forced to carry a majority of the team unlike Jake, something he never could. Jake had some of the best running games in the league when he was in Denver. In fact, in 2005, he had 2 1000 yard rushers. Try to find that in the time that Cutler was here.

I won't make excuses for Cutler as he has obvious flaws but he was head and shoulders better than Jake. His 3rd year starting he threw for 4000 yds and 27 TD's while on his learning curve dealing with a crap load of injuries and no defense. If he could have stayed in Denver, he could have developed into Drew Brees lite. He's kind of a prick/emo but I don't question his work ethic or motive.

yep those running games were great between teh 20's inside the red zone zip. inside the 5 even worse..

But then Jake did have the best FG kicker in teh league to make up for that..

IIRC we also sucked at TE for his years here..

yes cutlet was the hero but a whinny bitch, excpet to those that worshipped him..

and talk about turno overs in the redzone.. well that was cutlets specialty..

had it not been for Houckli giving him a pass, God only knows what would have happened in that season..

Tombstone RJ
04-06-2012, 02:19 PM
Losing Al Wilson really hurt the D and Shanny never fielded a decent D after that

Yep. Wilson really was the heart and soul of the defense.

lonestar
04-06-2012, 02:20 PM
Losing Al Wilson really hurt the D and Shanny never fielded a decent D after that

Actually I believed that in those last couple of years Al hurt the squad with his inability to wrap up, I'd guess that most of that was caused by his broken fingers.. no fault of his own .. but I can;t count the number of hits he put on folks that bounced off and someone else had to make the tackle..

Shame his career was cut short because of injuries..

lonestar
04-06-2012, 02:21 PM
Yep. Wilson really was the heart and soul of the defense.

I believe that would have been Atwater, not so much Al..

Tombstone RJ
04-06-2012, 02:33 PM
I believe that would have been Atwater, not so much Al..

you'd be wrong as Atwater wasn't on the team when Jake Plummer was playing, he left the Broncos after the 1998 season...

lonestar
04-06-2012, 02:38 PM
you'd be wrong as Atwater wasn't on the team when Jake Plummer was playing, he left the Broncos after the 1998 season...

thanks..

time warp runs loads of these guys together..

BroncoBeavis
04-06-2012, 02:50 PM
I don't think you understand football.

You hype his 2004 performance vs. Indy because he had a 103.1 QB rating. IT WAS 35-3 INDY at HALFTIME! lol. Jake got some garbage TD's in the 3rd Qtr when Indy was playing prevent, trying to run out the clock from basically the 30 minute mark on. He was 6/14 w/ an INT that led to a Indy TD by halftime. Mind you, by the end of the game, this was his best playoff performance. Often, his playoff games went like this. Final result... LOSS. 24-49. Manning Stats: 27/33, 458 yds, 4 TD's, 1 TO.

03' Vs. Indy - 75 QB rating, 23/30, 181 (dink/dunk) 1 TD, 3 TO's. LOSS. 10-41. Manning stats : 22/26, 377 yds, 5 TD's, 0 TO's.

05' Vs. NE - 78.5 QB rating, 15/26, 1 TD/1 INT for 181 yards. Sadly, this was the best effort we could have every hoped for and why he was soon replaced. Taking the ball out of Jake's hands so he didn't harpoon the team was the best way to win. Unfortunately when you get to the playoffs against better teams and better QB's, that ish don't float. Denver escapes 27-13. Brady Stats : 20/36, 1TD, 2 INT's. (Great play by Champ which probably would have been a TD by the Patriots)

05' vs. Pittsburgh, AFC Championship Game, AT HOME : 66.4 QB rating, 18-30, 223yds, 1 TD, 4 TO's. Denver loses 17-34. Roethlisberger stats: 21/29, 275 yds, 2 TD's, 0 TO's.

It is conceivable to say that Plummer was outplayed in EVERY playoff game that he played in as a Bronco. Even the NE game which really turned on the Champ Bailey 85 yard INT return.

You'll notice I never compared Plummer to Manning or Brady. Fact of the matter is there wasn't a QB in the league in 2003-'04 that would've led the Denver Broncos to beat Manning in the playoffs. Those were team collapses, in every sense of the term. Plummer was a good QB. But not one that was going to make a weak team a contender.

2005 was an improvement because Denver suddenly played some defense, and even made Tom Brady look ugly. Then we lost to a team with an even better defense, and as is the Denver tradition, we always blame the QB. So we pitch our decent QB aside, turn the 7-4 team over to the kid wonder 'solution' to all our problems and end up 9-7 and out of the hunt.

Then for two more years the Kid Wonder struggles to get over the hump himself, fails to make the playoffs, and never really solves anything, because the problem is as it always was... no defense.

bendog
04-06-2012, 03:05 PM
nope, I hadn't noticed, but thanks awfully for sharing.

Blueflame
04-06-2012, 03:05 PM
It still annoys me to remember the sight of Atwater in that disgusting green Jest uni. :nono:

broncosteven
04-06-2012, 04:06 PM
Actually I believed that in those last couple of years Al hurt the squad with his inability to wrap up, I'd guess that most of that was caused by his broken fingers.. no fault of his own .. but I can;t count the number of hits he put on folks that bounced off and someone else had to make the tackle..

Shame his career was cut short because of injuries..

I don't remember Al ever being a liability before his neck injury in 2006. Even after his neck injury he was still the best LB and best defender outside of Champ on the team.

UberBroncoMan
04-06-2012, 04:11 PM
I wonder if they're going to interview Plummer when he's 60 and it's going to be the same ****ing story with a Shanaslap.

Punisher
04-06-2012, 08:38 PM
It still annoys me to remember the sight of Atwater in that disgusting green Jest uni. :nono:

Blame Shanny for that

broncosteven
04-06-2012, 09:36 PM
Blame Shanny for that

We were paying for the SB run then Shanny thought he could overpay for a big name FA to prop things up but he made the mistake of choosing Dale Carter among other FA dead cap space eaters.

DENVERDUI55
04-06-2012, 09:44 PM
Plummer was a nice replacement after the Griese debacle. He brought up hope and winning again in Denver and won a lot of games. Unfortunately for him we kept running into the Colts who were a horrible matchup for us with the no pass rush Defense we had. I liked Jake but his time to go came. Manning brings us that same sense we have missed since Jake. Cutler may have turned into the franchise guy but his vag hurt him too much in Denver.

Blueflame
04-06-2012, 10:10 PM
Blame Shanny for that

Uh...yeah and I still haven't forgiven him for it. Letting Atwater go so that we could acquire Dale Carter was one of the worst decisions he ever made as HC. IMO.

Bacchus
04-07-2012, 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by Blueflame View Post
It still annoys me to remember the sight of Atwater in that disgusting green Jest uni.
Blame Shanny for that

Shanahan made the good business move. Atwater stunk it up his final year in NY ending his underachieving year injured. He should have just called it quites when Denver said they were not going to resign him at the price he wanted. It was nothing but a money deal for Atwater who got a 3 year contract from the Jets. I have no idea how much he collected but he made out like a bandit as to the quality of play he gave in return.

Blueflame
04-07-2012, 01:39 AM
Shanahan made the good business move. Atwater stunk it up his final year in NY ending his underachieving year injured. He should have just called it quites when Denver said they were not going to resign him at the price he wanted. It was nothing but a money deal for Atwater who got a 3 year contract from the Jets. I have no idea how much he collected but he made out like a bandit as to the quality of play he gave in return.

Dale Carter was the one who "made out like a bandit as to the quality of play he gave in return" for the $$ he was paid. As I remember it anyway...

TomServo
04-07-2012, 03:00 AM
poor jake. poor, poor jake.
did Elway fold up and w/the broncos drafted maddox? did Montana cry w/ the Niners got Young? did Brees fold up w/ the chargers drafted(retard)rivers?
No. real QBs man up and put there replacements on the bench.
Poor Poor jake laid down like a dog for Cutler.

errand
04-07-2012, 06:41 AM
Not going to say the defense was stellar. That's semi offpoint. You can point to qb ratings but I'm sure of you figure out the average between 03', 04', and 05', it's pretty pathetic. Brian Griese had a great qb rating. That means on third and ten you could have checked down, tossed the ball to the TE for five yds, punted and went about your day. Meanwhile Peyton just scored again. Rinse repeat rinse repeat. Mike got the clue that manufacturing an offense for a guy you signed to justify him was stupid and if Denver was ever going to advance, they needed to re-up for the arms race. A regular Joe wasn't going to beat Brady, Manning, Roethliberger or Rivers. Those guys have dominated the AFC Over the past ten years. Mike was right.


Having a very good to great QB is fine, but until you can pressure those great QB's playing against you, you'll rarely beat them.

Mike thought he had to outscore the Manning's and Brady's.....when he should built a defense that could pressure them without numerous blitzes...his neglecting the D...an especially the DL was our Achille's heel

bowtown
04-07-2012, 07:20 AM
I don't remember Al ever being a liability before his neck injury in 2006. Even after his neck injury he was still the best LB and best defender outside of Champ on the team.

Because he wasn't. Lonestar thinks Al Wilson and Lenny Kreigen are the same guy.

lonestar
04-07-2012, 02:12 PM
I don't remember Al ever being a liability before his neck injury in 2006. Even after his neck injury he was still the best LB and best defender outside of Champ on the team.

Hs thumbs/fingers IIRC kept being broken and playing with casts on his hands allowed loads of missed tackles..*

At about that point he started trying the big hit approach to playing football instead of trying to wrap them up..

 his missed tackles went up and I suspect those hits he tried aggravated his neck issues.. If not flat caused them..

* just looked at his splits on tackles he was consistently good in OCT and NOV with lots of tackles but one year padded those numbers with lots of assists..

Even his last year here he did well in DEC with tackles which I did not remember..

lonestar
04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
Having a very good to great QB is fine, but until you can pressure those great QB's playing against you, you'll rarely beat them.

Mike thought he had to outscore the Manning's and Brady's.....when he should built a defense that could pressure them without numerous blitzes...his neglecting the D...an especially the DL was our Achille's heel

He thought by bringing Champ to town that he would fix Mannings strangle hold on DEN in the playoffs.

Sure did shut down his man but the other WR and slots ate us alive..

mikey never did learn that you win and lose on the LOS and mostly with a DL..


but then he was always a LB defense type of guy.. spent loads on LBs and a pittance on quality DT's.

Even ruined the #3 defense in WAS when he got there I suspect mostly by trying to fix something that was not broken..

Cito Pelon
04-07-2012, 03:15 PM
Having a very good to great QB is fine, but until you can pressure those great QB's playing against you, you'll rarely beat them.

Mike thought he had to outscore the Manning's and Brady's.....when he should built a defense that could pressure them without numerous blitzes...his neglecting the D...an especially the DL was our Achille's heel

Well, I have to differ a little bit. Shanny tried like crazy to build the D but he missed on too many D draftees and FA's.

He drafted 32 Defense draft picks in rounds 1-4 during his tenure out of 64 total draft picks in rounds 1-4. Add in all the Defense FA's he brought in from the very beginning on the DL and at CB, S, LB.

I can't fault him for not trying because he tried like crazy. It wasn't like he neglected the D. He just couldn't put it together, and kept firing his DC's also, couldn't find a young one to take over.

Blueflame
04-07-2012, 03:59 PM
He thought by bringing Champ to town that he would fix Mannings strangle hold on DEN in the playoffs.

Sure did shut down his man but the other WR and slots ate us alive..

mikey never did learn that you win and lose on the LOS and mostly with a DL..


but then he was always a LB defense type of guy.. spent loads on LBs and a pittance on quality DT's.

Even ruined the #3 defense in WAS when he got there I suspect mostly by trying to fix something that was not broken..

If memory serves me correctly, wasn't Champ dinged up late in the season? I seem to recall it being Roc Alexander that Peyton victimized... which would indicate that perhaps the issue was conditioning and the talent dropoff between starters and backups.

Blart
04-07-2012, 04:13 PM
Jake, I will play "handball" with you any time. Call me

lonestar
04-07-2012, 09:57 PM
If memory serves me correctly, wasn't Champ dinged up late in the season? I seem to recall it being Roc Alexander that Peyton victimized... which would indicate that perhaps the issue was conditioning and the talent dropoff between starters and backups.

Also Champ has had Hammy issues almost yearly hampering him at one point or the other..

BUT IIRC Manning ate the guy covering the slot receiver alive..

We kept trying to get pressure with an occasional blitz which Manning killed us also..

That couple with playing in the dome in INDY caused us loads of problems with the pumped up crowd noise..

Glad Manning is on our team now and can't kill us anymore..

Now if we can get some heat on the QB up the gut without blitzing we have a solid chance in every game..

Not saying we will win them but fewer blow outs by getting behind and playing desperate..

Bronco_Beerslug
04-08-2012, 06:00 AM
Yeah, I forgot that we had Jake lined up at safety next to Lynch when we were giving up damn near 50 points a game to Peyton. :)
Jake put up a 103 rating in the second loss to the Colts. We were just totally outgunned across the board.
Plummer killed us when ever the pressure went up a degree or two.

This is the legacy he left in Denver...

---------------------------------------
When you lose $5,000 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/939972-20-athletes-who-love-giving-the-finger#/articles/939972-20-athletes-who-love-giving-the-finger/page/19) because you flip off your own fans in a game you ultimately end up winning, you're probably having a rough season.

"'I'm not a robot. I'm a man that has warm blood and sometimes it gets hot in there running through my veins,' Plummer said. 'You know people do things that they regret. As long as you can learn a lesson from it and stand up and be a man about what your actions were and move on, that's the true lesson you learn from it.'

"Plummer reached his hand behind his helmet and made the gesture upon reaching the bench after throwing a first-quarter interception in the 20-17 win over the Dolphins. The much-maligned quarterback has thrown six picks and no touchdowns in Denver's last two games. His 17 interceptions this season are the second most in the NFL."


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/562/016/jake2e_display_image_display_image.jpg?1321313190

Bacchus
04-08-2012, 06:05 AM
Dale Carter was the one who "made out like a bandit as to the quality of play he gave in return" for the $$ he was paid. As I remember it anyway...

Denver signing Carter was a bad thing.

Denver not resigning Atwater to a 3 year deal was a good thing.