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View Full Version : Morris Claiborne scores 4 on Wonderlic


Goobzilla
04-03-2012, 06:42 AM
A #&#ing FOUR! Good thing he can play ball.

RhymesayersDU
04-03-2012, 06:45 AM
Still better than Spider would score.

Dedhed
04-03-2012, 06:46 AM
Can you even hold a pencil to take the test if you're that dumb?

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 06:48 AM
I'd take him in a heartbeat!

55CrushEm
04-03-2012, 06:56 AM
Still better than Spider would score.

:giggle:

HILife
04-03-2012, 07:14 AM
Sounds low.

zdoor
04-03-2012, 07:21 AM
Future NASA material...

Rohirrim
04-03-2012, 07:22 AM
Link?

Kaylore
04-03-2012, 07:23 AM
That reminds me of Vince Young's Wonderlic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/ultimatehayabusa/Vincetest.jpg

BroncoBeavis
04-03-2012, 07:43 AM
That reminds me of Vince Young's Wonderlic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/ultimatehayabusa/Vincetest.jpg

Awesome

I LOLd. More than once.

Goobzilla
04-03-2012, 08:03 AM
Link?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/

Captain 'Dre
04-03-2012, 08:59 AM
Can you even hold a pencil to take the test if you're that dumb?

I thought just signing your own name correctly was worth 5 points! Ha!

DarkHorse
04-03-2012, 09:00 AM
I thought just signing your own name correctly was worth 5 points! Ha!

Morris proved to be tougher than his parents thought

peacepipe
04-03-2012, 09:01 AM
A #&#ing FOUR! Good thing he can play ball.

good thing he's not a QB.

theAPAOps5
04-03-2012, 09:29 AM
I thought just signing your own name correctly was worth 5 points! Ha!

What does a 4 tell you then......

Pony Boy
04-03-2012, 09:36 AM
What does a 4 tell you then......

It tells you that 4 can equal millions......

theAPAOps5
04-03-2012, 09:37 AM
It tells you that 4 can equal millions......

Touché Hilarious!:strong:

Bacchus
04-03-2012, 09:56 AM
CBs do not have to be very smart, but I would give close scrutiney to his character. If he has stayed out of trouble and appears to be a good guy I would not hesitate in drafting him. On the other hand if he is that stupid with some character problems he could end up getting himself in some serious trouble with all that money.

DENVERDUI55
04-03-2012, 09:57 AM
What does a 4 tell you then......

It tells you he was dumb enough to spell his name wrong.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 10:01 AM
Found these Wonderlics out.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/existence/wonderlic.html

Rohirrim
04-03-2012, 10:07 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/

How else can anyone explain a person who presumably has found a way to avoid failing out of college getting such a low score on a basic intelligence test?

And that gives rise to a more important question. What did LSU actually do to keep Claiborne from failing out of school?

Good points. Hope the NCAA checks into this. LSU should be embarrassed.

Bacchus
04-03-2012, 10:09 AM
Found these Wonderlics out.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/existence/wonderlic.html

That cannot be accurate. I got all nine questions right with 13 seconds to spare. I'm not that smart.

BroncoLifer
04-03-2012, 10:15 AM
How else can anyone explain a person who presumably has found a way to avoid failing out of college getting such a low score on a basic intelligence test?

And that gives rise to a more important question. What did LSU actually do to keep Claiborne from failing out of school?

Good points. Hope the NCAA checks into this. LSU should be embarrassed.

I assume that nobody can actually be that dumb. Maybe since he knows he's going in the top 10 regardless of his Wonderlic score he just goofed off on the test, purposely gave wrong answers, etc.

cmhargrove
04-03-2012, 10:24 AM
How else can anyone explain a person who presumably has found a way to avoid failing out of college getting such a low score on a basic intelligence test?

And that gives rise to a more important question. What did LSU actually do to keep Claiborne from failing out of school?

Good points. Hope the NCAA checks into this. LSU should be embarrassed.

This is why my son is playing footbal for a DII engineering school rather than a DI football school. It's not to say they are mutually exclusive, its just that the DI school that gave him offers weren't very academically inclined.

A kid with a 4 on the Wonderlic is about to be a multi-millionaire, I wonder what he'll do with it?

hookemhess
04-03-2012, 10:33 AM
That reminds me of Vince Young's Wonderlic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/ultimatehayabusa/Vincetest.jpg

I don't have a good comeback, so I'll just leave this here (it's all I care about regarding VY):

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/28/284009.jpg

Chris
04-03-2012, 10:37 AM
I don't have a good comeback, so I'll just leave this here (it's all I care about regarding VY):

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/28/284009.jpg

When I see that image I picture him dropping it a second later..

KevinJames
04-03-2012, 10:40 AM
Makes sense..... the kid has a learning disability that has to do with reading. Shame the media is going to pick apart a kid with a real disability.

The test score is not a shocker, but it doesn't reflect on his football knowledge.

Dr. Broncenstein
04-03-2012, 10:41 AM
So he's illiterate....

Shananahan
04-03-2012, 10:48 AM
A kid with a 4 on the Wonderlic is about to be a multi-millionaire, I wonder what he'll do with it?
Drool on it, probably.

Shananahan
04-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Would it be good for Denver to see him fall in the draft? Maybe a team in the top ten takes somebody else instead, and eventually one or two players who might not have been there otherwise are around at #25.

fdf
04-03-2012, 10:53 AM
I thought just signing your own name correctly was worth 5 points! Ha!

Not if you misspell it.

delany
04-03-2012, 12:14 PM
TJ should extend an invitation to Morris to become a Maner.

gyldenlove
04-03-2012, 12:15 PM
Would it be good for Denver to see him fall in the draft? Maybe a team in the top ten takes somebody else instead, and eventually one or two players who might not have been there otherwise are around at #25.

Not really, no player who wasn't goign to go in top 25 will as a result of this.

broncocalijohn
04-03-2012, 12:55 PM
Can you even hold a pencil to take the test if you're that dumb?

Well, they scored the test by where his drool marks hit the page.

BMF Bronco
04-03-2012, 01:11 PM
If he's illiterate, how in the hell did he graduate college?

El Guapo
04-03-2012, 01:16 PM
It just proves that athletics > academics and that the system is flawed (and all about $$$).

DENVERDUI55
04-03-2012, 01:18 PM
If he's illiterate, how in the hell did he graduate college?

I'd be surprised if he did.

Gort
04-03-2012, 01:23 PM
If he's illiterate, how in the hell did he graduate college?

Exhibit A.

http://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-102729-dexter-manley-washington-redskins-8x10-photo-psi-manleyd002.jpg

Exhibit B.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/10/the-shame-of-college-sports/8643/1/

Kid A
04-03-2012, 01:54 PM
The kid has a learning disability that LSU and NFL teams already knew about:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html

When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability. I don’t know much about his disability other than it has to do with reading. Everyone I have talked to tells me that Claiborne has great character and is a great kid. He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom. When it comes to football he puts in extra time to learn and understand his assignments and it is not a problem. Will he need reps? Probably, but no more than the usual rookie would need. In saying that, Claiborne’s test score was NOT a true indicator of his intelligence. He can and does learn.

It's kind of bull**** how these leak every year, making some guys who don't test well (on what's seen as a fairly sketchy intelligence test) the butt of jokes around the internet.

DENVERDUI55
04-03-2012, 01:59 PM
He won't be able to find his jersey because he can't read his name.

cutthemdown
04-03-2012, 02:02 PM
If some players refuse to run, or refuse to throw, or refuse to lift, why not refuse to take the Wonderlic?

ColoradoDarin
04-03-2012, 02:04 PM
The kid has a learning disability that LSU and NFL teams already knew about:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html



It's kind of bull**** how these leak every year, making some guys who don't test well (on what's seen as a fairly sketchy intelligence test) the butt of jokes around the internet.

Oh how will he ever get over it with the millions of dollars and playing a game for a living...

Rohirrim
04-03-2012, 02:10 PM
The kid has a learning disability that LSU and NFL teams already knew about:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html



It's kind of bull**** how these leak every year, making some guys who don't test well (on what's seen as a fairly sketchy intelligence test) the butt of jokes around the internet.

Some team down the line wants him to drop out of the top five.

Kid A
04-03-2012, 02:28 PM
Oh how will he ever get over it with the millions of dollars and playing a game for a living...

What's that go to do with whether the leaker was treating him fairly or not? It's just a ****ty way to treat someone (likely, as Roh said, by a team that wants him to slide) however much money he might be making in the end.

Tombstone RJ
04-03-2012, 02:29 PM
I'm sure he's smart enough to sign a big fat contract.

canadianbroncosfan
04-03-2012, 02:44 PM
That cannot be accurate. I got all nine questions right with 13 seconds to spare. I'm not that smart.

Yep exactly. I got the same thing with just under 20 seconds left. I'm not stupid but to mean it seems like it would be impossible to get that low a score and not be mentally retarded. Unless he spent 1:50 looking for his calculator to see which number came next in the sequence.

baja
04-03-2012, 02:44 PM
Damn you almost have to know the correct answers and intentionally mark the wrong choice to manage a score that bad.

canadianbroncosfan
04-03-2012, 02:46 PM
It's funny as I'm reading this thread, they're talking about it on PTI

broncosteven
04-03-2012, 02:46 PM
If he's illiterate, how in the hell did he graduate college?

I wonder what the percentage is of the college athletes who actually take the time to finish and graduate is.

Kaylore
04-03-2012, 03:03 PM
I don't have a good comeback, so I'll just leave this here (it's all I care about regarding VY):

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/28/284009.jpg

Best national championship game of the last seven years, I'd wager.

Rohirrim
04-03-2012, 03:17 PM
I wonder what the percentage is of the college athletes who actually take the time to finish and graduate is.

Since the average NFL career is only 3.3 years (according to the NFLPA), you would be a real idiot to not get that degree, especially when somebody else is paying for it.

extralife
04-03-2012, 04:21 PM
Yep exactly. I got the same thing with just under 20 seconds left. I'm not stupid but to mean it seems like it would be impossible to get that low a score and not be mentally retarded. Unless he spent 1:50 looking for his calculator to see which number came next in the sequence.

like any test of this nature, the wonderlic scales. sites that pull the LOOK AT HOW SMART YOU ARE ON X TEST/LOOK AT HOW DUMB THIS GUY IS ON X TEST are cherry picking the easiest questions so everyone can pretend they'd be 95% on the real thing. if you're a bad test taker, you won't even get to the easy questions in the first place; and if you do, you'll probably overthink them or panic or breeze past them because you thought they were hard. and if you have an actual reading disability that lies somewhere beyond just being a normal idiot, the wonderlic in particular is not going to treat you kindly. the entire test is about forcing and then punishing speed.

so here's how it goes if you are Mr. LSU guy with a reading disability, average or below intelligence, and unspectacular standardized test taking acumen: struggle to read one question, get frustrated, panic, skip it after wasting precious time, move on to the next, repeat, answer two or three questions before time runs out. I'd bet good money the guy only ever read a fourth of the questions at best.

barryr
04-03-2012, 06:01 PM
How many of the questions on this test is ever football related? As long as the guy knows where is supposed to be on the field and what is expected, I don't care if he can't answer how long does it take if on a bus to travel from point A to point B questions.

broncocalijohn
04-03-2012, 08:47 PM
I'm sure he's smart enough to sign a big fat contract.

Only if they still consider a big fat "X" as a signature then you are correct.

That One Guy
04-03-2012, 10:27 PM
like any test of this nature, the wonderlic scales. sites that pull the LOOK AT HOW SMART YOU ARE ON X TEST/LOOK AT HOW DUMB THIS GUY IS ON X TEST are cherry picking the easiest questions so everyone can pretend they'd be 95% on the real thing. if you're a bad test taker, you won't even get to the easy questions in the first place; and if you do, you'll probably overthink them or panic or breeze past them because you thought they were hard. and if you have an actual reading disability that lies somewhere beyond just being a normal idiot, the wonderlic in particular is not going to treat you kindly. the entire test is about forcing and then punishing speed.

so here's how it goes if you are Mr. LSU guy with a reading disability, average or below intelligence, and unspectacular standardized test taking acumen: struggle to read one question, get frustrated, panic, skip it after wasting precious time, move on to the next, repeat, answer two or three questions before time runs out. I'd bet good money the guy only ever read a fourth of the questions at best.

That line always makes me think of Daniel Tosh's thoughts on it. Something to the effect of "Bad test taker? So you mean you're stupid. You struggle with the part where we find out what you know..."

These people get coached like crazy for every step of the evaluation process. IF he can competently make it through college courses, he could be coached how to get more than a 4 on the test, I'd think. I doubt anyone would look at a Wonderlic and base an entire pick on it but you'd be stupid not to sit down with the guy and evaluate him for yourself.

extralife
04-03-2012, 10:51 PM
That line always makes me think of Daniel Tosh

well, that's the first problem.

of course a 4 is beyond awful, but if you have a reading disability something tells me you aren't going to do too well on a test that gauges your ability to speed read

UberBroncoMan
04-03-2012, 11:37 PM
Since the average NFL career is only 3.3 years (according to the NFLPA), you would be a real idiot to not get that degree, especially when somebody else is paying for it.

An abundance of those aspiring to be pro-athletes.

ColoradoDarin
04-04-2012, 06:11 AM
It's not like he got a 4 on a pop quiz. He knew it was coming, his agent knew it was coming, and they should know exactly what questions were going to be on it. I don't think most teams care about the test itself, or the scores, but they want to see that you put in the effort to study.

Gutless Drunk
04-04-2012, 09:52 AM
Danny Williams ‏ @TweetsDanny


Pretty bad when your 40 time is higher than your Wonderlic...

BroncoBen
04-04-2012, 09:55 AM
At this level ... either you can play football or not. Just like combines, running the Forty is not the same as running after a catch in the NFL. Jerry Rice is a prime example, no one could catch him in a game, but his Forty times were not very good.

Pony Boy
04-04-2012, 10:00 AM
Danny Williams ‏ @TweetsDanny


Pretty bad when your 40 time is higher than your Wonderlic...

Now that's some funny stuff folks ........Hilarious!

broncocalijohn
04-04-2012, 10:26 AM
well, that's the first problem.

of course a 4 is beyond awful, but if you have a reading disability something tells me you aren't going to do too well on a test that gauges your ability to speed read

How about slow read and get at least an 8 on the test? I would rather have him answer only 4 questions and get them all right then to speed through all the questions and get one right. Someone had to have given him some pointers on this Wonderlic test. They did but he forgot.

And zero points for you extralife to criticize Daniel Tosh. Dude is correct and damn funny, mother ****er.

Bacchus
04-04-2012, 11:14 AM
It's not like he got a 4 on a pop quiz. He knew it was coming, his agent knew it was coming, and they should know exactly what questions were going to be on it. I don't think most teams care about the test itself, or the scores, but they want to see that you put in the effort to study.

It doesn't matter if he knew it was coming if he can't read or has severe dyslexia.

That One Guy
04-04-2012, 11:59 AM
It doesn't matter if he knew it was coming if he can't read or has severe dyslexia.

If his condition is THAT bad, I question his ability to have made it through college. They only give you so much extra leeway on tests.

Lestat
04-04-2012, 12:03 PM
i just have to severely wonder how much of it was him half assing it and how much was him just flunking it.

i know some players have said that they played around on the test because they found some of the questions dumb so they answered them the same way.
but to get a 4 is i would think damn near impossible.

bendog
04-04-2012, 12:57 PM
Remember when Eli Manning said he intentionally missed questions of the test they give to get a baseline for guys coming back from concussions?

but if you look at some of the guys who came through LSU's program .... they are not taking academic classes. It's not forbidden, I'm sure, cause you have guys like Mauck who prepared themselves for life .... but the real nfl level prospects. LOL

extralife
04-04-2012, 01:04 PM
How about slow read and get at least an 8 on the test?

"at least an 8," as if that arbitrary designation is going to impress anyone. but your entire post is exactly why I talked about being bad at taking standardized tests in the first place, before you suddenly thought daniel tosh was a qualified expert on anything but bilking half an hour from morons.

That One Guy
04-04-2012, 01:56 PM
"at least an 8," as if that arbitrary designation is going to impress anyone. but your entire post is exactly why I talked about being bad at taking standardized tests in the first place, before you suddenly thought daniel tosh was a qualified expert on anything but bilking half an hour from morons.

He didn't just do poorly. An article I saw said it was the lowest score since they started giving the tests or something.

Bacchus
04-04-2012, 02:02 PM
He didn't just do poorly. An article I saw said it was the lowest score since they started giving the tests or something.

Well, if you are going to fail you might as well be the best at it.


I guess he did not have a punter to copy off of.

bendog
04-04-2012, 02:14 PM
"A vacuum tube, you say. I'll be damned if it didn't look like a crack pipe to me."

Chris
04-04-2012, 02:22 PM
like any test of this nature, the wonderlic scales. sites that pull the LOOK AT HOW SMART YOU ARE ON X TEST/LOOK AT HOW DUMB THIS GUY IS ON X TEST are cherry picking the easiest questions so everyone can pretend they'd be 95% on the real thing. if you're a bad test taker, you won't even get to the easy questions in the first place; and if you do, you'll probably overthink them or panic or breeze past them because you thought they were hard. and if you have an actual reading disability that lies somewhere beyond just being a normal idiot, the wonderlic in particular is not going to treat you kindly. the entire test is about forcing and then punishing speed.

so here's how it goes if you are Mr. LSU guy with a reading disability, average or below intelligence, and unspectacular standardized test taking acumen: struggle to read one question, get frustrated, panic, skip it after wasting precious time, move on to the next, repeat, answer two or three questions before time runs out. I'd bet good money the guy only ever read a fourth of the questions at best.

I sucked on the wonderlic and I did very well on the SAT, for what it's worth.

That One Guy
04-04-2012, 02:29 PM
I sucked on the wonderlic and I did very well on the SAT, for what it's worth.

I read the national average would be a 24. The NFL average is supposedly a 23.

Sucked would be a 14.

Also, this test is multiple choice. If each question had 5 answers, a 10 would be a statistical average. You'd need each of the 50 questions to have 12 answers to only get a 4, statistically. If the guy is this dumb, he'd have done better to just pick A for each question. Then, if he had time, he could go back and try to find one question to use the other 11 minutes on.

55CrushEm
04-04-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm gonna ask my wife for a wonder lick tonight.

We'll see how that goes......

Bronco Vixen
04-04-2012, 02:37 PM
Well the good news for Mr. Claiborne is that the Wonderlic is not considered a valid measure of cognitive ability by anyone except the NFL. In fact, I've only seen one study that bothered to look systematically at the predictive validity of the combine as a whole and found none of it (except for 40 times in running backs - Eureka!) to be predictive of NFL success - and certainly not Wonderlic performance. Shocking I know given the mental midget make up that is the league, the majority of whom would not survive one day in most of your jobs.

Just another example of the NFL stubbornly sticking to antiquated methods for optics sake. One area in which they could effectively use psychometrically sound (i.e., VALID and reliable) cognitive measures (see also: NOT the Wonderlic), would be in objective concussion assessment, but they've pretty much dropped all outside clinicians from conducting such testing. Awesome.

Tombstone RJ
04-04-2012, 02:37 PM
It's not like he got a 4 on a pop quiz. He knew it was coming, his agent knew it was coming, and they should know exactly what questions were going to be on it. I don't think most teams care about the test itself, or the scores, but they want to see that you put in the effort to study.

I personally think Claiborne is a genius. Think about it. He purposely tanks on the wonderlic which causes some teams to question his intelligence. He slides down the draft board to a team that does not suck quite as bad. He's a master manipulator I'm tell'n ya's!

Bronco Vixen
04-04-2012, 02:38 PM
I'm gonna ask my wife for a wonder lick tonight.

We'll see how that goes......

probably about as well as it went for Morris

Tombstone RJ
04-04-2012, 02:41 PM
Well the good news for Mr. Claiborne is that the Wonderlic is not considered a valid measure of cognitive ability by anyone except the NFL. In fact, I've only seen one study that bothered to look systematically at the predictive validity of the combine as a whole and found none of it (except for 40 times in running backs - Eureka!) to be predictive of NFL success - and certainly not Wonderlic performance. Shocking I know given the mental midget make up that is the league, the majority of whom would not survive one day in most of your jobs.

Just another example of the NFL stubbornly sticking to antiquated methods for optics sake. One area in which they could effectively use psychometrically sound (i.e., VALID and reliable) cognitive measures (see also: NOT the Wonderlic), would be in objective concussion assessment, but they've pretty much dropped all outside clinicians from conducting such testing. Awesome.

damnit woman, speak english!

Bronco Vixen
04-04-2012, 02:44 PM
damnit woman, speak english!

Wonderlic = bad test
Claiborne did bad on bad test = ruhtard
Concussion = bad brain

Conclusion: don't use bad test to measure bad brains

Tombstone RJ
04-04-2012, 02:48 PM
Wonderlic = bad test
Claiborne did bad on bad test = ruhtard
Concussion = bad brain

Conclusion: don't use bad test to measure bad brains

:) better...

delany
04-04-2012, 03:41 PM
Well the good news for Mr. Claiborne is that the Wonderlic is not considered a valid measure of cognitive ability by anyone except the NFL. In fact, I've only seen one study that bothered to look systematically at the predictive validity of the combine as a whole and found none of it (except for 40 times in running backs - Eureka!) to be predictive of NFL success - and certainly not Wonderlic performance. Shocking I know given the mental midget make up that is the league, the majority of whom would not survive one day in most of your jobs.

Just another example of the NFL stubbornly sticking to antiquated methods for optics sake. One area in which they could effectively use psychometrically sound (i.e., VALID and reliable) cognitive measures (see also: NOT the Wonderlic), would be in objective concussion assessment, but they've pretty much dropped all outside clinicians from conducting such testing. Awesome.

Objective concussion assessments, while nice (and clearly important to you), does nothing to address what the Wonderlic is in place to do.

What test would you use to quickly factor in during an interview process awarding millions of dollars in order to provide more insight into potential employees' cognitive ability to excel?

This was never supposed to be the end all, be all, Mother of All Cognitive Tests...just directionaly correct to provide another data point to collect as part of due diligence. All to be weighed with everything else in order to mitigate substantial financial risk.

That One Guy
04-04-2012, 04:36 PM
Well the good news for Mr. Claiborne is that the Wonderlic is not considered a valid measure of cognitive ability by anyone except the NFL. In fact, I've only seen one study that bothered to look systematically at the predictive validity of the combine as a whole and found none of it (except for 40 times in running backs - Eureka!) to be predictive of NFL success - and certainly not Wonderlic performance. Shocking I know given the mental midget make up that is the league, the majority of whom would not survive one day in most of your jobs.

Just another example of the NFL stubbornly sticking to antiquated methods for optics sake. One area in which they could effectively use psychometrically sound (i.e., VALID and reliable) cognitive measures (see also: NOT the Wonderlic), would be in objective concussion assessment, but they've pretty much dropped all outside clinicians from conducting such testing. Awesome.

I'm completely going out on an ignorant limb here but I'd put a small wager that those positions which test poorly vaguely correlate to those positions where people get in the most trouble. It may have some use and instantaneous decision making may be the use. Especially in today's NFL, off the field issues have almost as much weight as on the field issues.

extralife
04-04-2012, 05:06 PM
Also, this test is multiple choice. If each question had 5 answers, a 10 would be a statistical average. You'd need each of the 50 questions to have 12 answers to only get a 4, statistically. If the guy is this dumb, he'd have done better to just pick A for each question. Then, if he had time, he could go back and try to find one question to use the other 11 minutes on.

This would, again, come down to test taking ability. Add you are assuming that the wonderlic does not punish for missed questions. I don't know if that's the case or not, but if it is I believe that would make it literally the only intelligence test in the world to not do so.

Punisher
04-04-2012, 05:17 PM
I'm gonna ask my wife for a wonder lick tonight.

We'll see how that goes......

lol This

bowtown
04-04-2012, 05:54 PM
So he's illiterate....

Hillisiterate

That One Guy
04-04-2012, 10:58 PM
This would, again, come down to test taking ability. Add you are assuming that the wonderlic does not punish for missed questions. I don't know if that's the case or not, but if it is I believe that would make it literally the only intelligence test in the world to not do so.

Hmm... There goes my theory. Forgot about the wrong answer factor.

UberBroncoMan
04-05-2012, 12:38 AM
I always thought this test was timed with 50 questions or 49 (1 for signing your name). Basically each question was a point and all still there when the time ran out were 0's. Regardless. I've seen a Wonderlic test and believe most people on this forum could get four off the bat pretty ****ing quick. There's a lot of Elementary School level logic going on. Claiborne is all football. Outside of it he's a dishwasher or janitor.

Bronco Vixen
04-05-2012, 09:41 AM
Objective concussion assessments, while nice (and clearly important to you), does nothing to address what the Wonderlic is in place to do.

Never said they did. My problem has to do with 1) what exactly the Wonderlic itself is purportedly in place to do, 2) how well or how poorly it actually does whatever it is it is in place to do, and 3) the consequences of how well or how poorly it performs.

The original Wonderlic is an archaic test that was designed to measure "general intelligence" or the "g factor" (in before "g-spot" jokes). Not only is the actual existence of a "g factor" or one single defining factor of intelligence debatable (much like it's cousin the g-spot), so is the amount of variance that "intelligence" actually accounts for in job performance - even before one factors in the variability of job requirements.

On top of that, even if you believe that intelligence is the best predictor of job performance (and NFL performance specifically), the Wonderlic has never reliably demonstrated its concordance with widely used, well-validated comprehensive measures of intelligence - so is it really measuring what it is claiming to measure?

Putting aside that concern and believing for a moment that the wonderlic is a valid measure of intelligence, what is its track record for predicting job performance in the NFL? After all, it's been used for 40+ years as part of the combine (even before salaries were in the millions). The answer is not great. There is certainly the moderating variable of position (e.g., QB) but even that hasn't been a reliably strong finding. Perhaps again, because the test isn't doing a great job of measuring "cognitive abilities" or because however we're defining "intelligence" doesn't have much to do with being a successful football player.


What test would you use to quickly factor in during an interview process awarding millions of dollars in order to provide more insight into potential employees' cognitive ability to excel?

So even if we've proven that intelligence is a strong predictor of an NFL player's ability to excel professionally, which again, I don't believe has been done convincingly, either from an empirical standpoint or an anecdotal one, I would hesitate to put a lot of emphasis on any one test - particularly a 50 question test done in 12 minutes. If I were handing out millions, I would not want to factor in anything "quickly." From a strictly cognitive standpoint, I would at least employ a validated measure that can assess multiple factors of intelligence (my theoretical bias), particularly until it's been empirically demonstrated that any one area is more predictive of NFL success than another (e.g., information processing speed, working memory, sustained/divided attention, abstract reasoning etc.). That's part of the problem. No one has bothered to look at much of this systematically so we're still in the hypothesis generating stage - now 40+ years later. We should have a gigantic database by now helping inform us about the cognitive predictors of job performance and we don't.

This was never supposed to be the end all, be all, Mother of All Cognitive Tests...just directionaly correct to provide another data point to collect as part of due diligence. All to be weighed with everything else in order to mitigate substantial financial risk.

The problem with this particular data point (as this case so aptly demonstrates) is that it can easily be taken out of a more comprehensive context and thus not weighted appropriately with everything else. It's too easy to publicly (or privately for that matter) report a score - one score - on one very questionable measure that has not demonstrated great incremental validity - and have rampant conclusions drawn.

Obviously if you're concerned about substantial financial risk, due diligence would include a thorough investigation of one's background - cognitive, psych, physical. It's not as if this information is unavailable.

Bronco Vixen
04-05-2012, 09:46 AM
I'm completely going out on an ignorant limb here but I'd put a small wager that those positions which test poorly vaguely correlate to those positions where people get in the most trouble. It may have some use and instantaneous decision making may be the use. Especially in today's NFL, off the field issues have almost as much weight as on the field issues.

You're not on an ignorant limb at all TOG. On the face of it, that seems like a very reasonable hypothesis and one I would make as well. But hypotheses need to be empirically validated in order to be trusted - particularly when talking about these stakes. I could claim that head size means a bigger brain so that a device which measures head size is the best predictor of intelligence and consequently overall success. While this assertion would make our current QB an automatic mensa member, it is not necessarily valid.

That's my biggest issue with all of this, that despite having the data, there has been very little reported about the usefulness of this particular measure in predicting much of anything, much less success in the NFL on or off the field. And once again, that's unfortunate when we can so easily get a hold of a score and draw strong conclusions.

There are better ways of measuring "decision making." In fact I would posit that the average size of one's "posse" would better predict good decision making than a score on the Wonderlic. I would bet my 4-year-old's allowance that they would be strongly negatively correlated at the least. The important point is that this hypothesis would need to be tested empirically - something the NFL appears to be incapable of doing.

All of this being said, the guy is about as fluid a corner as I have ever seen.

gyldenlove
04-05-2012, 10:06 AM
Never said they did. My problem has to do with 1) what exactly the Wonderlic itself is purportedly in place to do, 2) how well or how poorly it actually does whatever it is it is in place to do, and 3) the consequences of how well or how poorly it performs.

The original Wonderlic is an archaic test that was designed to measure "general intelligence" or the "g factor" (in before "g-spot" jokes). Not only is the actual existence of a "g factor" or one single defining factor of intelligence debatable (much like it's cousin the g-spot), so is the amount of variance that "intelligence" actually accounts for in job performance - even before one factors in the variability of job requirements.

On top of that, even if you believe that intelligence is the best predictor of job performance (and NFL performance specifically), the Wonderlic has never reliably demonstrated its concordance with widely used, well-validated comprehensive measures of intelligence - so is it really measuring what it is claiming to measure?

Putting aside that concern and believing for a moment that the wonderlic is a valid measure of intelligence, what is its track record for predicting job performance in the NFL? After all, it's been used for 40+ years as part of the combine (even before salaries were in the millions). The answer is not great. There is certainly the moderating variable of position (e.g., QB) but even that hasn't been a reliably strong finding. Perhaps again, because the test isn't doing a great job of measuring "cognitive abilities" or because however we're defining "intelligence" doesn't have much to do with being a successful football player.




So even if we've proven that intelligence is a strong predictor of an NFL player's ability to excel professionally, which again, I don't believe has been done convincingly, either from an empirical standpoint or an anecdotal one, I would hesitate to put a lot of emphasis on any one test - particularly a 50 question test done in 12 minutes. If I were handing out millions, I would not want to factor in anything "quickly." From a strictly cognitive standpoint, I would at least employ a validated measure that can assess multiple factors of intelligence (my theoretical bias), particularly until it's been empirically demonstrated that any one area is more predictive of NFL success than another (e.g., information processing speed, working memory, sustained/divided attention, abstract reasoning etc.). That's part of the problem. No one has bothered to look at much of this systematically so we're still in the hypothesis generating stage - now 40+ years later. We should have a gigantic database by now helping inform us about the cognitive predictors of job performance and we don't.



The problem with this particular data point (as this case so aptly demonstrates) is that it can easily be taken out of a more comprehensive context and thus not weighted appropriately with everything else. It's too easy to publicly (or privately for that matter) report a score - one score - on one very questionable measure that has not demonstrated great incremental validity - and have rampant conclusions drawn.

Obviously if you're concerned about substantial financial risk, due diligence would include a thorough investigation of one's background - cognitive, psych, physical. It's not as if this information is unavailable.

The Wonderlic is a test that attempts to measure overall cognitive ability by asking knowledge, math, logic and language questions. Performing an in depth analysis of all these areas would take much too long to perform at the combine and it has been shown that traditional intelligence and cognition tests are biased with respect to cultural, educational and ethnic background.

The wonderlic is by no means an accurate depiction of cognitive ability and probablity of succeeding as a football player, however it is useful as a tool to discover cognitive problems that players may otherwise hide from their potential employers.

The case in question is a good example of this, it has surfaced that the player has a learning disability and would probably have been eligible for special accomodation however the agent failed to notify the organizers so they could verify this before the test. Had no wonderlic been performed it is very likely that this learning disability had not been discovered until after the draft when the player fails to learn the playbook. The low score is not indicative that Claiborne will fail as a football player, but it does indicate that he will need special help and tutoring to absorb an nfl playbook which is much more complex than anything he has used in college, the team that drafts him will now be aware of this and will also be aware that there is a chance he can't be relied on to start from day 1 because of this.

The reason the NFL and teams perform a battery of tests is exactly that no single test is a good predictor of performance, it is ignorant to assume that any single test can predict success in a group as diverse as nfl prospects. On a tangent, the studies that have attempted to evaluate predictive value of combine results relative to success have only done so using correlation, but have no tested wether thresholds exist that may be predictive - such as a 40-yard time less than 4.50 or a broad jump over 10'.

There is no background on cognitive abilities available to the teams if the player doesn't want it, every school has different standards and accomodations for football players and they are under no obligation to disclose this to teams.

Bronco Vixen
04-05-2012, 10:19 AM
The Wonderlic is a test that attempts to measure overall cognitive ability by asking knowledge, math, logic and language questions. Performing an in depth analysis of all these areas would take much too long to perform at the combine and it has been shown that traditional intelligence and cognition tests are biased with respect to cultural, educational and ethnic background.

The wonderlic is by no means an accurate depiction of cognitive ability and probablity of succeeding as a football player, however it is useful as a tool to discover cognitive problems that players may otherwise hide from their potential employers.

The case in question is a good example of this, it has surfaced that the player has a learning disability and would probably have been eligible for special accomodation however the agent failed to notify the organizers so they could verify this before the test. Had no wonderlic been performed it is very likely that this learning disability had not been discovered until after the draft when the player fails to learn the playbook. The low score is not indicative that Claiborne will fail as a football player, but it does indicate that he will need special help and tutoring to absorb an nfl playbook which is much more complex than anything he has used in college, the team that drafts him will now be aware of this and will also be aware that there is a chance he can't be relied on to start from day 1 because of this.

The reason the NFL and teams perform a battery of tests is exactly that no single test is a good predictor of performance, it is ignorant to assume that any single test can predict success in a group as diverse as nfl prospects. On a tangent, the studies that have attempted to evaluate predictive value of combine results relative to success have only done so using correlation, but have no tested wether thresholds exist that may be predictive - such as a 40-yard time less than 4.50 or a broad jump over 10'.

There is no background on cognitive abilities available to the teams if the player doesn't want it, every school has different standards and accomodations for football players and they are under no obligation to disclose this to teams.

You're telling me that it took the Wonderlic test to uncover a learning disability so severe that he could not score above a 4 and that such a learning disability had not previously been discovered in all of his academic and testing history? If that is the case then that is one hell of a sensitive test.

I agree there is not time to conduct a comprehensive cognitive assessment at a combine. My point is that there has been time to analyze data to determine the best predictors of job performance and therefore continue to refine the measures used - with the goal being the greatest predictive power. I agree that using cut points would be incredibly informative. The data is there and it could be very interesting to analyze.

I still assert that there are much better measures out there to assess "general cognitive ability" if that is the goal.

bendog
04-05-2012, 10:57 AM
I think the league is only trying to ferret out "dumber than a rock."

Drunken.Broncoholic
04-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Claiborne tweets "you don't no me" followed by a row dollar signs. He at least corrected himself after first using a row of &'s. He figured out the &'s didn't look like the symbol on his chain.

teknic
04-05-2012, 11:19 AM
Listen, I have taken this test and scored perfect. It's not a very difficult test, which is why it's always news when someone does so horribly that they get a single digit score.

If you can read, there is no reason you should get below 20. Even though you're given a short amount of time (think it was 12 minutes, might have been 15) to complete the test, about half of the questions were so simple that I instantly knew the answer. (ie. What is the next number in the sequence: 0,2,4,6,?, or Which fraction represents the larger amount, 1/8 or 1/4?)

If he guessed the entire test, the expected value would be 12.5/50. Scoring a 4 is pathetic. If you're that stupid, just guess the same letter for each question and you would do better than a 4 and it wouldn't be news.

I don't put too much stock into the Wonderlic, but I wouldn't touch any player that scores in the single digits. There's just no excuse.

Bronco Vixen
04-05-2012, 11:25 AM
I think the league is only trying to ferret out "dumber than a rock."

And what a stellar job they're doing...

http://otrsportsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/PacmanJones.jpg

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/666/683/michael-vick_display_image.jpg?1296002381

http://blogwater.typepad.com/.a/6a014e6050b4d1970c01538df4a69c970b-800wi

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Plaxico1.jpg

http://foodcourtlunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/travis-henry.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_F-WuKFGt45k/TIb2QjQq7iI/AAAAAAAAAaY/7Uj7Q3VEiLk/s1600/tank+johnson+guns.jpg

bendog
04-05-2012, 11:36 AM
Well, yeah. Personally, I agree with the notion that off the field issues have a lot more to predict performance than a wonderlic, but still if VY's score didn't give Tenn pause, their FO was dumber than he is. But this guy is a linebacker. Linebackers are supposed to be dumb/crazy unless we're talking Randy Gradisher

Drunken.Broncoholic
04-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Well, yeah. Personally, I agree with the notion that off the field issues have a lot more to predict performance than a wonderlic, but still if VY's score didn't give Tenn pause, their FO was dumber than he is. But this guy is a linebacker. Linebackers are supposed to be dumb/crazy unless we're talking Randy Gradisher

Whos a linebacker? Claiborne is a corner.

bendog
04-05-2012, 12:22 PM
oh, damn wonderlic

broncocalijohn
04-05-2012, 12:31 PM
Claiborne tweets "you don't no me" followed by a row dollar signs. He at least corrected himself after first using a row of &'s. He figured out the &'s didn't look like the symbol on his chain.

But he still kept the "no" instead of "know" word. But then again, his excuse is twitter. He must have someone doing that for him as just being able to type and hit send for twitter is worth 4 points on the Wonderlic test.