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View Full Version : Article from CBS on DT's in this class.


Requiem
04-01-2012, 01:08 PM
Enjoy everyone.
(http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/story/17711505/draft-positional-series-down-defensive-linemen)

yerner
04-01-2012, 01:15 PM
that got me excited. why not draft two of these guys??

Rohirrim
04-01-2012, 01:23 PM
that got me excited. why not draft two of these guys??

That works for me. Cox in the first, Kheeston in the 4th. ;D

Lestat
04-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Cox and Thompson would be a nice dream combo.
i wouldn't mind Mike Martin either but i wonder how they would use him, NT or UT?

yerner
04-01-2012, 01:31 PM
What about the Alabama kid Chapman? I haven't heard anything about him.

Lestat
04-01-2012, 01:33 PM
he's a NT type who will gobble up the running game and give you a bit of pass rush.
What about the Alabama kid Chapman? I haven't heard anything about him.

Broncojef
04-01-2012, 01:34 PM
I'd love to see Jerel Worthy wearing the bronco orange, he was a beast and a game changer at State.

Tombstone RJ
04-01-2012, 01:39 PM
pretty strong class from top to bottom, at least the Broncos have that going for them going into this draft.

pull-the-trigger.

Lestat
04-01-2012, 01:46 PM
when this draft is over DT better be a strength on the team and draft analysts complain about how many DT's we drafted.

oubronco
04-01-2012, 01:52 PM
Thanks man

oubronco
04-01-2012, 01:52 PM
I'd love to see Jerel Worthy wearing the bronco orange, he was a beast and a game changer at State.

He's at the top of my list

orange skier
04-01-2012, 02:14 PM
Do you think Elway and Fox have already decided who they want? If this year's pick comes anywhere close to Von Miller and his quality, and dedication, and production, then we know we have a front office. And if we have a front office, they will build a dynasty for us.......dynasty.

R8R H8R
04-01-2012, 04:21 PM
pretty strong class from top to bottom, at least the Broncos have that going for them going into this draft.

pull-the-trigger.

Seems like I heard that last year too. Maybe this is the year they actually take advantage of it.

Requiem
04-01-2012, 06:45 PM
Do you think Elway and Fox have already decided who they want? If this year's pick comes anywhere close to Von Miller and his quality, and dedication, and production, then we know we have a front office. And if we have a front office, they will build a dynasty for us.......dynasty.

I'm sure their final grades on prospects will be done in a few weeks. I'm sure they have their guy, but I doubt that guy will be @ 25.

If I'm a betting man I say they go with Worthy. Solid starter, little to no injury history, consistent, gets TFL + sacks and anchored a great run defense (best in NCAA, I believe) and a great pass rush.

cutthemdown
04-01-2012, 06:54 PM
I know people saying Fox and Del Rio love big DT but men do change thinking based on situation. I really think they understand, Elway especially that in Denver you need smaller players. We still want to be big, but we want to be athletic and quick, with great conditioning.

I think Broncos will look hard at Reyes if he is there in the first round. And the DE Winn from Boise ST i could see getting a look in the 2nd. Both of those players really strong and can play inside or outside depending on the down.

Lestat
04-01-2012, 08:07 PM
unless Winn is playing DT for us i don't see it, he's slow as a DE and i don't know if he has the frame to be a 4-3 DT. his teammate McClellin though, he's a nice prospect.

cutthemdown
04-01-2012, 09:00 PM
unless Winn is playing DT for us i don't see it, he's slow as a DE and i don't know if he has the frame to be a 4-3 DT. his teammate McClellin though, he's a nice prospect.

I think he will move around and play both. But when you start talking about 2-3rd round picks most of them have some negatives.

Lestat
04-01-2012, 09:03 PM
dude runs almost a 5 flat @ 294 lbs, that's a DT in almost any scheme.

barryr
04-01-2012, 09:07 PM
I know people saying Fox and Del Rio love big DT but men do change thinking based on situation. I really think they understand, Elway especially that in Denver you need smaller players. We still want to be big, but we want to be athletic and quick, with great conditioning.

I think Broncos will look hard at Reyes if he is there in the first round. And the DE Winn from Boise ST i could see getting a look in the 2nd. Both of those players really strong and can play inside or outside depending on the down.

I also prefer Reyes over all the higher rated DT's outside of Cox. Winn will be a 3-4 DE or won't make it in the NFL at all IMO. Del Rio inherited both Stroud and Henderson at DT when he became the coach, so hard to say what he really prefers since those guys were good enough not to worry about that spot for years.

cutthemdown
04-01-2012, 09:09 PM
dude runs almost a 5 flat @ 294 lbs, that's a DT in almost any scheme.

I don't get caught up in those number too much. He's super strong. Also at his pro day he was timed as low as 4.82 which for a guy his size is good for the NFL. He's also athletic. He looked like he got into a lot better shape for his pro day, but he didn't have a great senior bowl.

I think he could fall into a rotation in a 4-3 where you can play him at end or DT.

Jetmeck
04-01-2012, 09:16 PM
Lord, please let draft some decent DTs.....please ????

Lestat
04-01-2012, 09:23 PM
i think he's a DT who can slide down to DE in certain situations but if he's strictly a 4-3 player then he's a DT for sure imo. i don't care too much about 40 times for a DT but for a DE it's kinda crucial to be able to get to the QB. i like to see a 4.7 or lower for DE.

Hamrob
04-01-2012, 09:42 PM
My opinion:

Cox
Brockers
Still
Worthy
Reyes
Poe

We will get one of those guys. However, I think we could take a guy who falls like Kuechly or Kirkpatrick or maybe even Gilmore.

If that happened, then we would use our 2nd on a DT (Thompson, Wynn).

My choices:

1st round: Cox, Worthy, Reyes

2nd round: Kendricks, Martin

cutthemdown
04-01-2012, 09:46 PM
I'm sort of thinking Broncos look for guys with big motors, who can stop the run. If they aren't great pass rushers who cares we have Doom and Miller for that. Wynn just seems to play the run really well. Sometimes its not so much speed this, how strong he is, its just being a good football player and he looks like that to me.

cutthemdown
04-01-2012, 09:48 PM
Thats why they haven't resigned Marcus Thomas probably. There are so many 300 pound DT in this draft that can do what he does.

I think Broncos plan on either Warren or Vickerson coming back strong. They will try and add a few DT/DE add them to Ayers and Doom and come up with a squad. I do think though while most of us, lots on the board, feel Warren is washed up, the Broncos don't.

Baba Booey
04-01-2012, 09:49 PM
Didn't Chapman play part of last season with a torn ACL? And he was still a huge part of the best defense in college football.

FireFly
04-01-2012, 11:10 PM
Didn't Chapman play part of last season with a torn ACL? And he was still a huge part of the best defense in college football.

Yep. If it wasn't for the torn ACL he'd be a lock in 1st round pick. Probably pretty high in it as well

Shananahan
04-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Thats why they haven't resigned Marcus Thomas probably. There are so many 300 pound DT in this draft that can do what he does.
I think it's probably more a matter of his asking price and just the ordinary pace of resigning a guy who's wanted but not necessary. He's probably not worth overpaying for at this point, but I think he's also likely to be a step or three above whatever a rookie is capable of. I'm hopeful they resign him, because I think he'll probably only improve. Good teams value the defensive line beyond its starters.

I'd be down for Chapman, and we wanted to draft him in the mock draft before Pittsburgh snatched him with the pick right ahead of Denver. I disagree that he'd ever go high in the first due to his skillset, but I'd be plenty happy if they grabbed him in the middle rounds somehow.

canadianbroncosfan
04-02-2012, 01:31 AM
I'd love to see Jerel Worthy wearing the bronco orange, he was a beast and a game changer at State.

Pretty much every mock draft on NFL.com has him going to the Broncos

cutthemdown
04-02-2012, 01:33 AM
Bleacher Report says Broncos should stay away from Worthy. Not that I agree just what they wrote in the article. They also said no to Reyes unless its in 2nd round.

BroncoInferno
04-02-2012, 05:56 AM
No mention of Cincinnati's Derek Wolfe? He seems to be flying under the radar. Extremely productive player (9.5 sacks last season), pretty good size (6'5" 300), and a high motor. I guess he doesn't have the elite combine numbers of some of the other DTs, but I'll take my chances on a guy who was that productive. I've seen him projected anywhere from the 2nd to the 4th. I'd be fine with him in the 2nd.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 07:32 AM
I only like Cox @25 or Poe, otherwise I would draft someone else, or trade down.
Thompson with the #2 pick is a must!
I'm still leaning towards grabbing Hill with the 4th as his tender or taking another DT, again depending on who is taken @25.

Bronco Rob
04-02-2012, 08:40 AM
Dontari Poe

Memphis DT Dontari Poe was one of the big winners of this year’s Scouting Combine, and despite his incredible combination of size and speed, at least one NFL scout believes that he’s not worthy of his kind of hype.

“He’ll be overdrafted,” said the scout, via Mark Eckel of the Trenton Times. “He did all of that at the Combine, so some team will take him way higher than he should go. I mean watch him play, just watch. He didn’t do anything. And he wasn’t playing at a very high level, either.”

This is definitely something that has to be considered, as every year there are a number of “workout warriors” that end up moving up draft boards, despite the fact that their college tape doesn’t add up to their workout’s or measurable’s.

“All I know is he had one sack last year and it came against Austin Peay,” the scout continued. “You probably didn’t even know Austin Peay had a football team.”

It’s worth noting that Poe play’s in the middle of team’s defense, so the fact that he ended up with just one sack isn’t exactly the most staggering statistic. Sure, you would like to see better production and overall ability to get to the quarterback, but NFL team’s aren’t going to be paying him to lead the team in sacks. Poe is still a high-risk prospect that could end up going in the Top 15 picks.



Michael Brockers

Speaking of high-risk defensive tackles, Michael Brockers has been another player that has helped his draft stock with his combine workout and overall size, but his stop appears to be dropping in recent weeks.

Another NFL scout that Mark Ecke’ met with mentions that he still believes in his overall ability.

“I think he’s the best DT in the draft,” said the personnel man. “He can play the run and he has some pass rush.”

Greg Cosell of NFL Films sees Brockers as a project player that “will be drafted based on what he might become, not what he is now.”

Aaron Wilson of Scout.com reports that Brockers will meet with the Titans on Monday and the Patriots, Rams, Eagles and Browns at a later time.



Quinton Coples

There has been some negative attention surrounding UNC DE Quinton Coples in recent days, and some believe that he could actually fall out of the Top 10 in upcoming draft.

According to an NFL scout that spoke with Mark Eckel of the Trenton Times, Coples’ talent remains unquestioned but there are definitely concerns regarding his character.

“He’s good as hell, but he’s nuts,” said one NFL personnel man. “I’m not sure what’s up with him. I’d put him at left end in a 4-3, but he could do everything if he wants it.”

Greg Cosell mentions that Coples doesn’t have the “flexibility of [an] edge rusher” but believes he can be “effective as inside pass rusher in sub-packages.”



Fletcher Cox

Greg Cosell sees Mississippi State DT Fletcher Cox a “much better prospect than [Dontari] Poe.” Cosell adds that Cox’s versatility could lead him to be taken within the first-twelve picks.

Cox seems like a perfect fit in a 3-4 scheme, but I’m sure that won’t prevent 4-3 teams from doing their homework on him. We have him going to the Cowboys at #14 overall in our recent 2012 NFL Mock Draft.



Whitney Mercilus

According to Greg Cosell, mentions that Illinois DE Whitney Mercilus is “not a natural pass rusher” and thinks he could be more effective lining up wide.

Back to Mark Eckel’s article for more perspective on Mercilus on his large 2011 sack total.

“Those 16 sacks are a little deceiving,” said an NFL scout. “A lot of it was just cleaning up. He’s not good against the run at all, so he might have to be a situational pass rusher.”

Mercilus is still considered a first-round pick by most, but that could change in the weeks leading up to the draft.





http://nfltraderumors.co/nfl-draft-rumors-dontari-poe-michael-brockers-quinton-coples-fletcher-cox-qbs-whitney-mercilus/

jutang
04-02-2012, 09:05 AM
Definitely seems like a great year to fix one of Denver's biggest weaknesses. Plus we actually have coaches who know how to draft and develop lineman!

My biggest concerns still remain the middle O-line, MLB (here's hoping Irving is a player). The team is soft up the middle on both sides of the ball.

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 09:10 AM
I predict Dontari Poe gets a big paycheck and turns into a bench turd.

bendog
04-02-2012, 09:20 AM
I predict Dontari Poe gets a big paycheck and turns into a bench turd.

Probably, but I thought that of Phillip Taylor, and he had a nice rookie year.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 09:24 AM
I really really think they need to draft Thompson in the second and take BPA at 25. I think Thompson has the versatility to play either DT spot and will allow for another player later in the draft.

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 09:31 AM
Probably, but I thought that of Phillip Taylor, and he had a nice rookie year.

I'm always highly suspicious of players who "suddenly" blossom at the Combine. Or players who suddenly become all pro on their contract year. It's like buying stocks; Give me the guy who steadily improves, year after year.

BroncoInferno
04-02-2012, 09:39 AM
I'm always highly suspicious of players who "suddenly" blossom at the Combine. Or players who suddenly become all pro on their contract year. It's like buying stocks; Give me the guy who steadily improves, year after year.

Normally I agree, but apparently Poe is said to have a strong work ethic and good attitude. He might just need better coaching. If we still had McD and Shanny, I probably wouldn't touch him, but I think I would be OK rolling the dice on him with Fox and Del Rio.

DenverBroncosJM
04-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Do you think Elway and Fox have already decided who they want? If this year's pick comes anywhere close to Von Miller and his quality, and dedication, and production, then we know we have a front office. And if we have a front office, they will build a dynasty for us.......dynasty.

The #2 pick is a lot easier to hit a beast player than the #25 pick

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 10:03 AM
Normally I agree, but apparently Poe is said to have a strong work ethic and good attitude. He might just need better coaching. If we still had McD and Shanny, I probably wouldn't touch him, but I think I would be OK rolling the dice on him with Fox and Del Rio.

If Cox and Poe are on the board at 25, I don't even look at Poe. My card is on the way to the podium. Why be the team to take the chance? That's what I can never understand. Take the player who doesn't have issues, whose only question is "How much upside?" In Broncosland, a revolutionary concept, I know. ;D

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 10:05 AM
If Cox and Poe are on the board at 25, I don't even look at Poe. My card is on the way to the podium. Why be the team to take the chance? That's what I can never understand. Take the player who doesn't have issues, whose only question is "How much upside?" In Broncosland, a revolutionary concept, I know. ;D

Let's just hope that's the scenario. I would only want Poe or Cox with the first pick anyway. Otherwise I trade down or draft the best impact player, that doesn't play DT and can start day one.

uplink
04-02-2012, 10:08 AM
If the broncos don't pick at DT in the 1st three rounds I'm going to start believing a DT really did kill someone in Bowlen's family.

bendog
04-02-2012, 10:28 AM
I think Poe will be gone. I initially had concerns about Cox, because Miss State is known for recuriting guys with ... less that total maturity, but everything I read about Cox is sort of glowing with upside. So, I suspect he'll be gone too unless they move up, which I doubt.

imo, DT is a very difficult position to draft for a couple of reasons. First, a team has to judge mental ability/character with all positions, but here there are kids of 22-23 who are huge. Are they gonna do what they need to do in offseasons? There's not much of a track record for these guys. Second, any kid who is going in the top 50 or so has physically dominated players at the college level. So, teams have to look at post-season bowls like the senior bowl to "guesstimate" one on one ability. AND, you have guys like Paea who dominated physically, but will have to become more or less finesse players, because they just aren't that big. And third, teams have to project how well a draft pick will take to learning the technique necessary when really very few NFL players can totally physically dominate others.

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 10:34 AM
Here's the Huddle Report's write up on Poe (posted for it's comic effect):

It's hard to list all of the concerns that I have about Dontari, but I'll try. He is lazy, doesn't dominate, is easy to move and block, does not require double teams to be ineffective, does not burst off the line consistently or change the line of scrimmage. Dontari does not shoot the gaps, does not communicate with teammates on the field, lacks situational football intelligence, doesn't use his arms to shed blocks and make tackles -- in fact, when he does, it's by accident. He doesn't put his hands up if he can't get to the QB, doesn't push the pocket and has no knowledge of the fundamentals of his position. Dontari also does not exhibit strong mental stamina but, in his defense, he carries his weight very well. He does not look his size, which leads me to believe that he must have a good work ethic off the field because he is in excellent shape. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. The big question is, why is this kid in such good shape and still plays like he isn't in good shape? Maybe he just plays when he wants to...ya think?

Hilarious!

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 10:38 AM
Here's a fun comparison Huddle Report put up:

Dontari Poe DT Memphis - 2011 season - 22 total tackles, 1 sack, 0 forced fumbles, 0 interceptions.

Now, let's put them against the same stats from Nadamukong Suh's Senior 2009 season at Nebraska:

Nadamukong Suh - 2009 season - 85 total tackles, 12 Sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception.

That doesn't mention Suh's 24 tackles for losses and that's more than Poe's total tackles for the year.

bendog
04-02-2012, 10:45 AM
I sort like the Jean-Baptiste guy ... for his name if nothing else.

Dedhed
04-02-2012, 10:57 AM
I think Poe and Brockers are busts waiting to happen. Both are highly overrated because of their measurables, and both look really poor at times on tape.

I like Cox, Worthy, or Still at #25 in that order. Cox is probably a pipe dream, but the other two are real possibilities.

ludo21
04-02-2012, 11:12 AM
im liking Chapman, and Thompson

Known commodities for the most part. Run stuffers

lonestar
04-02-2012, 11:18 AM
I'm always highly suspicious of players who "suddenly" blossom at the Combine. Or players who suddenly become all pro on their contract year. It's like buying stocks; Give me the guy who steadily improves, year after year.

I totally agree with this premise..

more often than not these guys are just looking for a payday..

we were burnt once on pryce, while he was a great DT sometimes he was not consistent..

he got his fat check and then had to be called out routinly by mikey or Rod to get his fat ass in gear..

Give me a richard seymor any day the guy just gets it done week after week..

show me that guy in that list and I'll be all for him or them..

Shananahan
04-02-2012, 11:22 AM
Here's a fun comparison Huddle Report put up:

Dontari Poe DT Memphis - 2011 season - 22 total tackles, 1 sack, 0 forced fumbles, 0 interceptions.

Now, let's put them against the same stats from Nadamukong Suh's Senior 2009 season at Nebraska:

Nadamukong Suh - 2009 season - 85 total tackles, 12 Sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception.

That doesn't mention Suh's 24 tackles for losses and that's more than Poe's total tackles for the year.
It's really not fair to compare anybody's season to Suh's senior campaign.

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 11:27 AM
It's really not fair to compare anybody's season to Suh's senior campaign.

Yeah, but that's a chasm of difference. People are all hyped up on Poe's Combine performance. His performance on the field, against a bunch of guys who will never sniff the NFL, was horrible. Poe was at Memphis. If he's any good at all, he should have Suh-like numbers against that level of competition. What those numbers tell me is that if Poe played in the SEC, he wouldn't have seen the field.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 11:29 AM
im liking Chapman, and Thompson

Known commodities for the most part. Run stuffers

This is exactly what I have been saying! Chapman is a proven stud verse double teams, stout against the run. Thompson is great being a pocket disrupter and is stout against the run.

I would trade out of the first, give the #25 pick to Philly for their two second round picks. They could take Mike Adams @25 to play LT.
Then take Thompson in the second, Chapman in the third, and this team is really in business.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 11:35 AM
Chapman isn't going to place this year. He tore his god damn ACL. Stop advocating that we draft a player who cannot contribute at all this year. That would be like drafting Darius Watts again.

DENVERDUI55
04-02-2012, 11:38 AM
We need to get a big fat slob to eat space against the run. That's what I want.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 11:40 AM
We need to get a big fat slob to eat space against the run. That's what I want.

Alameda Ta'amu is the guy for you! I also like Thompson, but I think he in the early 2nd along with Reyes. No chance in getting either Reyes or Thompson with our second rounder unless we trade down.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Chapman isn't going to place this year. He tore his god damn ACL. Stop advocating that we draft a player who cannot contribute at all this year. That would be like drafting Darius Watts again.

Why do you keep saying that. There is no reason why he won't be playing this year. 7-9 Months recovery time puts us at or before the start of the season. Why can't he be ready half way through the year? And make an impact come playoff time? Ta Amu won't be available in the third. So what other NT is there? Still, Worthy, are big ass UT's. I have said if not chapman I like Randal a lot. Why are u such a dick lately?

bendog
04-02-2012, 11:49 AM
I think Cox is gone unless they move up. I'm ok with Worthy or Still, and I'd be happy if they moved up in the second to take Thompson.

But, doesn't Del Rio utilize one DT/NT who plays a 3 gap, and another who plays the 1 gap?

BroncoBen
04-02-2012, 12:03 PM
Good Article... thanks for the link.

Denver is in a good position to grab one of the top 2 or 3 DTs coming out. And with the depth at this position, they may even grab another good one in the 3rd round.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 12:18 PM
Why do you keep saying that. There is no reason why he won't be playing this year. 7-9 Months recovery time puts us at or before the start of the season. Why can't he be ready half way through the year? And make an impact come playoff time? Ta Amu won't be available in the third. So what other NT is there? Still, Worthy, are big ass UT's. I have said if not chapman I like Randal a lot. Why are u such a dick lately?

I'm sorry if you are disturbed that I want no part in drafting a defensive lineman who just shredded his ACL in October, played through it and let the condition worsen to the point where he just had an operation in January. Do you really think it is worth Denver investing a third round selection in a guy whose likely return would be at the beginning of the season at the earliest?

No OTA's, no training camp, no on the field playing time since his last college game.

Right -- that's the guy we need to draft.

Hilarious!

KCStud
04-02-2012, 01:37 PM
Fletcher Cox is such a beast. His motor never runs cold. He'd be a great pick for you guys at 25. Not sure if he'll be there though. You might have to trade up.

DENVERDUI55
04-02-2012, 01:51 PM
Alameda Ta'amu is the guy for you! I also like Thompson, but I think he in the early 2nd along with Reyes. No chance in getting either Reyes or Thompson with our second rounder unless we trade down.

Yeah I like Ta'amu. I think he has potential to be a force in run game or potential to eat himself out of the league.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 02:52 PM
I'm sorry if you are disturbed that I want no part in drafting a defensive lineman who just shredded his ACL in October, played through it and let the condition worsen to the point where he just had an operation in January. Do you really think it is worth Denver investing a third round selection in a guy whose likely return would be at the beginning of the season at the earliest?

No OTA's, no training camp, no on the field playing time since his last college game.

Right -- that's the guy we need to draft.

Hilarious!

Your right, they should reach and take an UT who has flashes of highlights as opposed to the guy who can anchor the line for 10 years. Chapman played on an injury and dominated. But let's take Worthy right?

lonestar
04-02-2012, 03:35 PM
Your right, they should reach and take an UT who has flashes of highlights as opposed to the guy who can anchor the line for 10 years. Chapman played on an injury and dominated. But let's take Worthy right?

UNfortunately almost everyone is wanting instant gratification they are not planning long-term but for next week and only next week..

I however would love to have a guy that does both..

But if I had to choose it would be the long-term guy.. Someone that like Miller will do be good for 8-12 years..

Rarely does a DT come out and contribute year one they normally take a couple of years to learn the NFL style of play.. UNLESS your drafting top 5 or so those players do not grow on trees..But some of these kiddies do not get that..



your guy is injured and because of that will fall in the draft..and that just may be a blessing in disguise for us..

Give me a guy that will dominate next year and take this year to get it..

and considering the new 8 week IR list he may even make a difference this year..

Lestat
04-02-2012, 04:31 PM
i wouldn't mind Chapman but only if it's 3rd round or later. he's gonna take a season to recoup from the ACL and he's better suited to be a NT so it'll take a bit for him to really get going. he's a first round talent when healthy but draft value wise is a reach before the 3rd and Denver has a bad history with previously injured draftees.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Your right, they should reach and take an UT who has flashes of highlights as opposed to the guy who can anchor the line for 10 years. Chapman played on an injury and dominated. But let's take Worthy right?

Denver needs a NT and an UT. I see Worthy's value much higher. To me, he is the second best DT in this class next to Fletcher Cox.

Kaylore
04-02-2012, 04:44 PM
I am still looking for the "Can do flips" box next to each prospect. I can't make a decision if I don't know this.

cutthemdown
04-02-2012, 04:46 PM
We need to get a big fat slob to eat space against the run. That's what I want.

Big fatties just don't mix in Denver very well. They suck air. Broncos will look for athletic, versatile DT. They will probably also look for one guy who is a tweener. Someone to move around at end and DT. They try it with Ayers but he just isn't that good.

cutthemdown
04-02-2012, 04:48 PM
Some people mentioning trading down but realistically what player would be there at our spot that would make a team want to move up to it? Maybe if Tannehill that qb dropped? It's not as easy to just trade down as people think.

lonestar
04-02-2012, 04:51 PM
Big fatties just don't mix in Denver very well. They suck air. Broncos will look for athletic, versatile DT. They will probably also look for one guy who is a tweener. Someone to move around at end and DT. They try it with Ayers but he just isn't that good.

THere is a huge difffenrece in Big and fatties..

there are many 320 plus pound guys that can and will contribute if they are not played all game long and given breaks..

right now our big guy is about 310.. most under 305.. that does not cut it in the NFL and stopping the run and getting pressure well that is not going to happen..

Requiem
04-02-2012, 05:04 PM
I am still looking for the "Can do flips" box next to each prospect. I can't make a decision if I don't know this.

Heavyweight boss nukkas! :strong:

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 05:33 PM
Kendal Reyes can do a back flip.
I did say Chapman as a third to fourth round pick, after all you said it he is first round talent.
Jerel Worthy does not have great game tape, my guy Thompson has allowed for multiple highly ranked DEs to produce because of his great abilities. He can collapse a pocket, take double teams, and he causes havoc in the backfield. Give me the guy with production all through college. Ideally I want Cox and Thompson, I just don't know if that can happen.

Lestat
04-02-2012, 05:49 PM
depends on how the draft falls but Kirkpatrick,Hightower,Mercilus,Wright,Glenn,Martin ,Jenkins,Hill,Perry,Still,Gilmore,Worthy,Reyes,Wil son,Konz,Fleener,Barron,Adams,Randle,Jeffery,Branc h & etc could be there and some team normally gets antsy to deal up and grab their guy before he's gone.
Some people mentioning trading down but realistically what player would be there at our spot that would make a team want to move up to it? Maybe if Tannehill that qb dropped? It's not as easy to just trade down as people think.

Rohirrim
04-02-2012, 05:59 PM
Denver needs a NT and an UT. I see Worthy's value much higher. To me, he is the second best DT in this class next to Fletcher Cox.

I agree. How can anybody watch this guy and not want him on the Broncos?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NsGf5i-_dCE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 06:09 PM
I agree. How can anybody watch this guy and not want him on the Broncos?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NsGf5i-_dCE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That's his high lights. I am not biased to any school. When this season began I scouted DTs, because Indy needed DTs. Thompson, Cox, Kawann Short, Star Louteli, Chapman, Randal were all guys who intrigued me from their games, not their highlights.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 06:13 PM
Worthy took plays off, for every great play, there were 3-4 plays he was washed out. But.. If he played intense all the time, I would like he and Thompson as the one two punch.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 06:21 PM
Worthy took plays off, for every great play, there were 3-4 plays he was washed out. But.. If he played intense all the time, I would like he and Thompson as the one two punch.

Do you even know the % of snaps Worthy saw this season? Taking plays off? Haha. That's why they had the best rushing defense in the NCAA and one of the best pass rushes to boot. No great game tape? Hilarious! Guess you didn't see him dominate Wisconsin.

snowspot66
04-02-2012, 06:21 PM
Your right, they should reach and take an UT who has flashes of highlights as opposed to the guy who can anchor the line for 10 years. Chapman played on an injury and dominated. But let's take Worthy right?

It's quite obvious you're new here. We've been drafting injured players on potential for a decade and it's left our roster bare enough to get us the #2 last year.

Pretty much everybody here wants a guy with stats AND no injury history. We've been burned too many times.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 06:22 PM
It's quite obvious you're new here. We've been drafting injured players on potential for a decade and it's left our roster bare enough to get us the #2 last year.

Pretty much everybody here wants a guy with stats AND no injury history. We've been burned too many times.

Spot on. Anyone advocating drafting a DC who has a torn up knee is a lunatic.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 06:30 PM
Do you even know the % of snaps Worthy saw this season? Taking plays off? Haha. That's why they had the best rushing defense in the NCAA and one of the best pass rushes to boot. No great game tape? Hilarious! Guess you didn't see him dominate Wisconsin.

You can't be serious, I have nothing against this guy, he is just not what your making him out to be after my evaluation. If he was so great and I am missing something shouldn't he be the top UT that you have him pegged for? Also look at competition. Monte Ball ran all over them, why did he disappear in their biggest game of the year? I just don't like him @25, and that's my opinion.

Requiem
04-02-2012, 06:31 PM
You can't be serious, I have nothing against this guy, he is just not what your making him out to be after my evaluation. If he was so great and I am missing something shouldn't he be the top UT that you have him pegged for? Also look at competition. Monte Ball ran all over them, why did he disappear in their biggest game of the year? I just don't like him @25, and that's my opinion.

Yeah, I guess a guy who had a TFL in 9 straight games is an inconsistent player. I'm glad you got to watch one game of his this year. He also blocks kicks on special teams and creates turnovers. I'm all about him. I value a DT like that over a run stuffer any day. And wait, he is good at that too. :curtsey:

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 06:41 PM
Spot on. Anyone advocating drafting a DC who has a torn up knee is a lunatic.

He's worth a third to fourth round pick, he played half the season on his injury and dominated! He's not hurt forever!

Requiem
04-02-2012, 06:43 PM
He's worth a third to fourth round pick, he played half the season on his injury and dominated! He's not hurt forever!

I am not interested in spending a third or fourth round pick on a guy who won't be eligible for more than half the season. PASS.

Bmore Manning
04-02-2012, 07:18 PM
Yet when he's healthy he may be the top NT in the draft class.

Lestat
04-02-2012, 07:22 PM
It's quite obvious you're new here. We've been drafting injured players on potential for a decade and it's left our roster bare enough to get us the #2 last year.

Pretty much everybody here wants a guy with stats AND no injury history. We've been burned too many times.

definitely agree with this.
i'm at a loss to understand how people forget Willie Middlebrooks,Paul Toviessi,George Foster,Ryan Torain,Ryan Harris. we don't do well with injured draftees.

Broncos_OTM
04-02-2012, 07:42 PM
If i was to do the drafting. It would be a play maker at 25 . And Thompson 2nd and another DT later after our 2nd fourth. Take a special teams guy in the third. We need a guy at 25 that will start immediately and be a difference maker. Just mo.

27atwater
04-02-2012, 08:01 PM
I am not interested in spending a third or fourth round pick on a guy who won't be eligible for more than half the season. PASS.

That's what 3rd and 4th rounders are. You can't expect every pick to start day 1. If we can land a gem who needs some time in the middle of the draft, then I am all for it.

jutang
04-02-2012, 08:38 PM
definitely agree with this.
i'm at a loss to understand how people forget Willie Middlebrooks,Paul Toviessi,George Foster,Ryan Torain,Ryan Harris. we don't do well with injured draftees.

If decker and Thomas explode would it change your outlook?
Drafting DTs won't really pay off until next year so drafting a guy with a torn acl in the 3 rd or 4 th may not be such a wasted pick. If the knee were degenerative like Dewayne Robertson, then I wouldn't waste my time.

Mediator12
04-02-2012, 09:49 PM
I am really stunned at this thread. DEN really needs both a 4-3 NT and UT. The elite UT is much harder to fill than the NT. Also, it does not mean you need a two gap NT either. The 4-3 NT is still a one gap player who can deal with a double team as he fills his gap.

I love Brandon Thompson and Mike Martin as 4-3 NT's due to their abilty to attack and win their gaps. The problem with both is they are not 3 down players. That will make them less valuable than the under tackles in the draft. As for the UT's, Cox is the clear front runner. The next tier is Worthy, Still, and Reyes. Any of those would be major upgrades, but carry some risk as well.

Run stuffer's can be found late in the draft. UT's not so much! So, drafting DT's has risk early.

As for Chapman, would love him in the late fourth. However, he might go earlier than that. Remember, he will not clear a physical before the draft. That will hurt him a lot more than people think. Especially, since this is an ACL and meniscus. That is not a given soft tissue recovery. While guys can come back quickly, it is not the norm for an ACL. It is extremely unlikely he sees the field next year even with the new IR exemption. He had surgery in late January not September! The hard part is that surgery is very dependent on 3 things. The type of ACL surgery used, the skill of the physician, and the extent of the extra damage from playing on it for 4 months and wearing the meniscus with no help.

No team in their right mind would expect him to be ready to play in 2012. He just might be capable of doing it. But, he could really make that injury a chronic one if he messed up that meniscus. There will be no way to tell before the draft. He also may never be the same player movement wise after its healed. Way too many If's for most front offices to pick before the fourth.

However, you must also remember he is not going to be a scheme fit! Dude is a two gap NT! Not a 4-3 NT. He is not a one gap movement DT. That drops him even further on Den's board.

pricejj
04-02-2012, 11:43 PM
If i was to do the drafting. It would be a play maker at 25 . And Thompson 2nd and another DT later after our 2nd fourth. Take a special teams guy in the third. We need a guy at 25 that will start immediately and be a difference maker. Just mo.

This...Mohamed Sanu, Dont'a Hightower, and Andre Branch are all better options than Jerel Worthy at #25 (not including the OL).

Facts:
1. Worthy went into 2011 as the #1 rated DT, and has slipped anywhere from #4 to #6 (in a DT class that lacks elite talent).
2. Worthy is a decent player, but I grade him out as a slightly more productive Marcus Thomas type player. Basically, a backup/rotational player at UT or NT...not a Pro Bowler.
3. Many of Worthy's plays are made by timing the snap, and thus he has quite a few false starts (he won't be able to do that in the NFL).
5. Everyone claiming how dominant Worthy was against Wisconsin in 2011, needs to remember that Wisconsin scored 42, and Worthy had 2 tackles.
6. Worthy had a bigger statistical factor against Wisconsin and Alabama in 2010 (3 tackles each game), if you watch the film, he was dominated...Wisconsin and Alabama rolled over Michigan State in those games.
7. Worthy was the 3rd best player on the MSU defensive line in 2011:
William Gholston - 70 tackles, 5 sacks
Kevin Pickelman - 37 tackles, 4 sacks
Jerel Worthy - 31 tackles, 3.5 sacks

It's pretty funny that many of you (after pimping Devon Still), are now pumping up Jerel Worthy. The fact remains that Worthy is a 2nd round prospect. If you are looking for an impact pass-rusher, players like Jared Crick, Derek Wolfe could be drafted in the 2nd round and are better players than Worthy.

I am pretty sure the Broncos are the ONLY team looking at drafting Worthy in the 1st round. How does it benefit the team to let 2 DT's go, just to force themselves to spend high draftpicks to draft more?

Shananahan
04-02-2012, 11:53 PM
You're still pimping Crick while talking about the upside of Worthy?

pricejj
04-02-2012, 11:57 PM
If i was to do the drafting. It would be a play maker at 25 . And Thompson 2nd and another DT later after our 2nd fourth. Take a special teams guy in the third. We need a guy at 25 that will start immediately and be a difference maker. Just mo.

This...Mohamed Sanu, Dont'a Hightower, and Andre Branch are all better options than Jerel Worthy at #25 (not including the OL).

Facts:
1. Worthy went into 2011 as the #1 rated DT, and has slipped anywhere from #4 to #6 (in a DT class that lacks elite talent).
2. Worthy is a decent player, but I grade him out as a slightly more productive Marcus Thomas type player. Basically, a backup/rotational player at UT or NT...not a Pro Bowler.
3. Many of Worthy's plays are made by timing the snap, and thus he has quite a few false starts (he won't be able to do that in the NFL).
5. Everyone claiming how dominant Worthy was against Wisconsin in 2011, needs to remember that Wisconsin scored 42, and Worthy had 2 tackles.
6. Worthy had a bigger statistical factor against Wisconsin and Alabama in 2010 (3 tackles each game), if you watch the film, he was dominated...Wisconsin and Alabama rolled over Michigan State in those games.
7. Worthy was the 3rd best player on the MSU defensive line in 2011:
William Gholston - DE - 70 tackles, 5 sacks
Kevin Pickelman - NT - 37 tackles, 4 sacks
Jerel Worthy - UT - 31 tackles, 3.5 sacks

It's pretty funny that many of you (after pimping Devon Still), are now pumping up Jerel Worthy. The fact remains that Worthy is a 2nd round prospect. If you are looking for an impact pass-rusher, players like Jared Crick, Derek Wolfe could be drafted in the 2nd round and are better players than Worthy.

I am pretty sure the Broncos are the ONLY team looking at drafting Worthy in the 1st round. How does it benefit the team to let 2 DT's go, just to force themselves to spend high draftpicks to draft more?

Shananahan
04-02-2012, 11:59 PM
Hmmmmm.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 12:08 AM
Cory Liuget was a better UT prospect in 2010 (63 tackles, 4.5 sacks as a TRUE Jr.), than Jerel Worthy is in 2011 (31 tackles, 3.5 sacks as a REDSHIRT Jr.) Liuget finished with 19 tackles and 1 sack in his rookie year with the Chargers.

If the Broncos draft Jerel Worthy in the 1st round, he would be the 3rd best UT on the team (behind McBean and Vickerson, who aren't anything special).

I suspect Worthy would be a more effective NT, than a UT in the NFL...however, he won't command a double team (not big enough, or powerful enough), so it is pointless to draft him.

If EFX is enamored with 30 tackle/3 sack guys in the 1st round...then good luck winning a Super Bowl.

Shananahan
04-03-2012, 12:11 AM
I'm not sold on Worthy, but they need to invest in the position in one form or another. I won't even care if whoever they take falls short at this point, so long as they simply try.

I was mainly just poking fun at your never-ending obsession with Crick while being so critical of real DTs.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 12:21 AM
I'm not sold on Worthy, but they need to invest in the position in one form or another. I won't even care if whoever they take falls short at this point, so long as they simply try.



I care. Xanders has been atrocious at drafting (outside of a gimme with Von Miller). I'm sick of EFX short-changing the OL and DL thinking they are getting ahead of the game. If they reach for a marginal "wanna-be" UT in the 1st, just to say "There we fixed a problem", that would be bad. I would be okay with Cox (UT), or even Poe (NT) and Brockers (NT) (commands a double team). Guys like Still and Worthy are dime-a-dozen 2nd rounders, who aren't particularly good at rushing the QB and won't command a double team.

I would also be critical if you we're trying to promote drafting Osweiler, or any other back-up in the 1st round. You guys just happen to be infatuated with pumping up back-up/marginal DT's...

...btw Crick has MUCH more production at the UT position than your so called "real" DT's. It's not even close.

cutthemdown
04-03-2012, 01:32 AM
I'm not sold on Worthy, but they need to invest in the position in one form or another. I won't even care if whoever they take falls short at this point, so long as they simply try.

I was mainly just poking fun at your never-ending obsession with Crick while being so critical of real DTs.

So you would pass on a stud WR or Olineman to just try at DT. EVen if the team said well none of these DT probably worth this pick but we need them really bad? I would hate for them to run team like that.

IMO you take best football player available.

Shananahan
04-03-2012, 01:38 AM
...btw Crick has MUCH more production at the UT position than your so called "real" DT's. It's not even close.
You would understand if you'd ever really watched him play.

ZONA
04-03-2012, 01:43 AM
Didn't Chapman play part of last season with a torn ACL? And he was still a huge part of the best defense in college football.

My guess is you didn't read the article the thread starter posted, lol.

Shananahan
04-03-2012, 01:43 AM
So you would pass on a stud WR or Olineman to just try at DT. EVen if the team said well none of these DT probably worth this pick but we need them really bad? I would hate for them to run team like that.

IMO you take best football player available.
That's a little too hypothetical, but if there really was a stud player somewhere else I'd hope they'd take him. That won't happen, though. What's the harm in (just this once) focusing on need and trying to find a guy who can help you where you need help?

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 03:47 AM
I am really stunned at this thread. DEN really needs both a 4-3 NT and UT. The elite UT is much harder to fill than the NT. Also, it does not mean you need a two gap NT either. The 4-3 NT is still a one gap player who can deal with a double team as he fills his gap.

I love Brandon Thompson and Mike Martin as 4-3 NT's due to their abilty to attack and win their gaps. The problem with both is they are not 3 down players. That will make them less valuable than the under tackles in the draft. As for the UT's, Cox is the clear front runner. The next tier is Worthy, Still, and Reyes. Any of those would be major upgrades, but carry some risk as well.

Run stuffer's can be found late in the draft. UT's not so much! So, drafting DT's has risk early.

As for Chapman, would love him in the late fourth. However, he might go earlier than that. Remember, he will not clear a physical before the draft. That will hurt him a lot more than people think. Especially, since this is an ACL and meniscus. That is not a given soft tissue recovery. While guys can come back quickly, it is not the norm for an ACL. It is extremely unlikely he sees the field next year even with the new IR exemption. He had surgery in late January not September! The hard part is that surgery is very dependent on 3 things. The type of ACL surgery used, the skill of the physician, and the extent of the extra damage from playing on it for 4 months and wearing the meniscus with no help.

No team in their right mind would expect him to be ready to play in 2012. He just might be capable of doing it. But, he could really make that injury a chronic one if he messed up that meniscus. There will be no way to tell before the draft. He also may never be the same player movement wise after its healed. Way too many If's for most front offices to pick before the fourth.

However, you must also remember he is not going to be a scheme fit! Dude is a two gap NT! Not a 4-3 NT. He is not a one gap movement DT. That drops him even further on Den's board.

Del Rio liked both DT's to be two gap hogs in his time in Baltimore and early on in JAX. Then he went more conventional to a 3 and a 1 tech, but his 3 tech is also stout against the run. Any NT whether that's a 0 tech or 1 tech shade, has to command double teams, so your not fully right in that regard.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 03:48 AM
If i was to do the drafting. It would be a play maker at 25 . And Thompson 2nd and another DT later after our 2nd fourth. Take a special teams guy in the third. We need a guy at 25 that will start immediately and be a difference maker. Just mo.

This^ Thompson as the first DT taken.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 03:50 AM
That's a little too hypothetical, but if there really was a stud player somewhere else I'd hope they'd take him. That won't happen, though. What's the harm in (just this once) focusing on need and trying to find a guy who can help you where you need help?

It may play out that way, but you should not reach to fill a need at a position where someone with a very similar grade will be there come round two.

Mediator12
04-03-2012, 04:34 AM
Del Rio liked both DT's to be two gap hogs in his time in Baltimore and early on in JAX. Then he went more conventional to a 3 and a 1 tech, but his 3 tech is also stout against the run. Any NT whether that's a 0 tech or 1 tech shade, has to command double teams, so your not fully right in that regard.

I am not sure what you are talking about. Del Rio never was a DC in Bal, he was a DC for CAR under John Fox. Fox's defense, including under Allen last year have always been 4-3 over, under attacking one gap schemes. The same has been true for Del Rio in JAX.

Del Rio did have two huge DT's in JAX in Stroud and Henderson. However, they played a one gap attacking front. Del Rio has Never played a 4-3 react two gap scheme in his career. He has always played a 4-3 one gap front.

Elway 4 Life
04-03-2012, 04:44 AM
I am not sure what you are talking about. Del Rio never was a DC in Bal, he was a DC for CAR under John Fox. Fox's defense, including under Allen last year have always been 4-3 over, under attacking one gap schemes. The same has been true for Del Rio in JAX.

Del Rio did have two huge DT's in JAX in Stroud and Henderson. However, they played a one gap attacking front. Del Rio has Never played a 4-3 react two gap scheme in his career. He has always played a 4-3 one gap front.

Exactly, he was the strength coach in Baltimore.

Ray Finkle
04-03-2012, 04:44 AM
Del Rio liked both DT's to be two gap hogs in his time in Baltimore and early on in JAX. Then he went more conventional to a 3 and a 1 tech, but his 3 tech is also stout against the run. Any NT whether that's a 0 tech or 1 tech shade, has to command double teams, so your not fully right in that regard.

Bmore, Med is one of the most knowledgable posters here when it comes to football. His analysis is always spot on.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 05:45 AM
Exactly, he was the strength coach in Baltimore.

I live in Baltimore, he was the Linebackers coach, next time you cosign somebody at least have ur facts straight.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 05:49 AM
I am not sure what you are talking about. Del Rio never was a DC in Bal, he was a DC for CAR under John Fox. Fox's defense, including under Allen last year have always been 4-3 over, under attacking one gap schemes. The same has been true for Del Rio in JAX.

Del Rio did have two huge DT's in JAX in Stroud and Henderson. However, they played a one gap attacking front. Del Rio has Never played a 4-3 react two gap scheme in his career. He has always played a 4-3 one gap front.

Del Rio and Marvin implemented a two gap DT scheme in the 4-3, that's what Baltimore ran with Goose and Sam Adams. It's also what they ran in JAX. While its a 4-3, the idea is to have two dominant space eaters force attention of 3 of the line players to insinuate one on one matchups. The variations of the 4-3 over and under are different fronts to utilize talent, in Denver's case the over allows the Sam to blitz its perfect with their players.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 05:53 AM
Bmore, Med is one of the most knowledgable posters here when it comes to football. His analysis is always spot on.

His analysis is wrong. I think he is knowledgeable but he is wrong. What nobody else can be right on here or catch on to a mistake?

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 05:57 AM
The schemes were two gap DTs I promise this! I agree with his UT and NT analysis and some of the potential players, even though I think Thompson is a three down player, and agree Cox would be the perfect UT, he had the scheme call wrong.

Elway 4 Life
04-03-2012, 06:24 AM
I live in Baltimore, he was the Linebackers coach, next time you cosign somebody at least have ur facts straight.
You are correct he was the strength coach in New Orleans. As the LB coach in Baltimore how did he establish any DT schemes? Your not supporting your aurguement with his time in Baltimore.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 06:28 AM
You are correct he was the strength coach in New Orleans. As the LB coach in Baltimore how did he establish any DT schemes? Your not supporting your aurguement with his time in Baltimore.

I am telling you what Baltimore ran from the 4-3, two space eaters in a two gap DT scheme, I will find the article and post it.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 06:40 AM
HERE

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1074050-nfl-defensive-schemes-the-basics-of-the-4-3-3-4-and-ryan-defenses

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/some-quick-and-speculative-observations-about-del-rio-and-the

Del Rio did utilize the 4-3 over and under odd man fronts essentially with the one gap scheme, but his base was with a two gap DT scheme. I don't think that will be used here, as he has adapted with the times to a passer league. Before two gap was great cause they ran the ball more.

Dedhed
04-03-2012, 07:08 AM
Denver needs a NT and an UT. I see Worthy's value much higher. To me, he is the second best DT in this class next to Fletcher Cox.

I agree completely. There's pretty good film of Worthy and Brockers both playing against Georgia, and Worthy is by far the better player. Forces double teams and still moves into the backfield. Never handled easily by one guy.

Shows the ability to anchor and penetrate.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 07:53 AM
What is it about Worthy? I rewatched all his games, sometimes he is really impressive, but most times he disappears. Cox or nothing on the UT side from the first for me please. Still has injury history and Worthy disappears... What is it that I am missing?

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:03 AM
You would understand if you'd ever really watched him play.

As I stated before, Sanu (WR), Hightower (MLB), Gilmore (CB), Barron (SS), Adams (RT), Konz (C), Crick (UT), Brockers (NT), and Branch (DE) are ALL good picks @ 25. They would all be able to start for the Broncos right away. Cox won't be there. Still/Worthy would begin as back-ups, and offer 2nd round production.

I have watched 6 of Crick's games. I have watched 6 of Worthy's games. Crick is the superior UT. Worthy shows flashes, and I think he will achieve around 35 tackles, 3 sacks as a UT in the NFL in his 2nd year (not as a rookie) , which is decent but not Pro Bowl level, and does not deserve a 1st round pick. Crick has more versatility, more than twice the production (at the college level), and will outperform Worthy in the NFL. Pass-rushers are at a premium (as the Giants) have shown. Worthy can't hold a candle to Crick.


Worthy isn't as athletic or productive as Brodrick Bunkley, who took 5 years to develop into a solid starting NT.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:08 AM
I agree completely. There's pretty good film of Worthy and Brockers both playing against Georgia, and Worthy is by far the better player. Forces double teams and still moves into the backfield. Never handled easily by one guy.

Shows the ability to anchor and penetrate.

Brockers is an NT and commands a double team (which is valuable in a 4-3). Worthy won't command a double team in the NFL and has marginal production.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 08:19 AM
Brockers is an NT and commands a double team (which is valuable in a 4-3). Worthy won't command a double team in the NFL and has marginal production.

I'm glad someone else can see the same thing I do, a guy that can make high light reels on sports centers top ten for his impressive dunk (sack), but can't make the all star game for being one of the best at his positions.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:34 AM
I'm glad someone else can see the same thing I do, a guy that can make high light reels on sports centers top ten for his impressive dunk (sack), but can't make the all star game for being one of the best at his positions.

These guys are so desperate for a DT, because the Broncos haven't had a dominant DT since Trevor Pryce went to Baltimore, and the Broncos haven't drafted a DT in the 1st round since Pryce.

The reality is, Worthy would begin as a 3rd string UT behind McBean and Vickerson. Why draft a guy like that, when you can draft a starter?

I don't care what Mayock says. Mayock projected Robert Ayers as the best defensive player in the 2009 draft. Mayock projected Knowshon Moreno as a top 5 pick in the 2009 draft. Mayock projected Sanchez as the #1 player in the 2009 draft. The guy falls in love with players, just because he see's a couple flashes on game tape. Never mind actual production, or examining the whole body of work. Xanders pretty much follows everything Mayock says, and that is why he sucks at drafting.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:35 AM
Brockers is an NT and commands a double team (which is valuable in a 4-3). Worthy won't command a double team in the NFL and has marginal production.

Marginal production? Hilarious!

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:36 AM
Marginal production? Hilarious!

Yes. Marginal production.

Jerel Worthy 2011 - 31 tackles, 3.5 sacks

Jerel Worthy was the 3rd best player on the MSU defensive line.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:37 AM
The reality is, Worthy would begin as a 3rd string UT behind McBean and Vickerson. Why draft a guy like that, when you can draft a starter?

If Worthy gets drafted, he starts immediately. McBean isn't even on our team (still a FA) and Vickerson is dog ****.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:38 AM
Yes. Marginal production.

Jerel Worthy 2011 - 31 tackles, 3.5 sacks

Jerel Worthy was the 3rd best player on the MSU defensive line.

Considering you didn't even know what positions Jared Crick played at Nebraska, I'm going to take your evaluation of Worthy with a grain of salt.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:40 AM
What is it about Worthy? I rewatched all his games, sometimes he is really impressive, but most times he disappears. Cox or nothing on the UT side from the first for me please. Still has injury history and Worthy disappears... What is it that I am missing?

You watched all of Worthy's 14 games last night within twelve hours? Doubt it.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:41 AM
Considering you didn't even know what positions Jared Crick played at Nebraska, I'm going to take your evaluation of Worthy with a grain of salt.

Crick played DT at Nebraska. Even you have to force yourself to believe "Worthy is worthy @ 25". Newsflash, he's not.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:42 AM
If Worthy gets drafted, he starts immediately. McBean isn't even on our team (still a FA) and Vickerson is dog ****.

McBean was tendered a $1.26M RFA offer. Vickerson is dog ****, but I bet he has more production than Jerel Worthy next year.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:44 AM
Crick played DT at Nebraska. Even you have to force yourself to believe "Worthy is worthy @ 25". Newsflash, he's not.

You do realize that Crick is not going to play defensive tackle in the NFL, correct?

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:45 AM
McBean was tendered a $1.26M RFA offer. Vickerson is dog ****, but I bet he has more production than Jerel Worthy next year.

Right on. So how about this. Vickerson outperforms Worthy (assuming both are healthy) -- I leave the Mane. Worthy outperforms Vickerson, you leave the Mane. Sound good?

pricejj
04-03-2012, 08:49 AM
You do realize that Crick is not going to play defensive tackle in the NFL, correct?

Crick played DT at Nebraska, was invited to the NFL combine as a DT, and will play at UT if a 4-3 team drafts him. If a 3-4 team drafts him, he will play DE.

Everything that Mayock or nfldraftscout projects, isn't true.

bendog
04-03-2012, 08:52 AM
I am really stunned at this thread. DEN really needs both a 4-3 NT and UT. The elite UT is much harder to fill than the NT. Also, it does not mean you need a two gap NT either. The 4-3 NT is still a one gap player who can deal with a double team as he fills his gap.

I love Brandon Thompson and Mike Martin as 4-3 NT's due to their abilty to attack and win their gaps. The problem with both is they are not 3 down players. That will make them less valuable than the under tackles in the draft. As for the UT's, Cox is the clear front runner. The next tier is Worthy, Still, and Reyes. Any of those would be major upgrades, but carry some risk as well.

Run stuffer's can be found late in the draft. UT's not so much! So, drafting DT's has risk early.

As for Chapman, would love him in the late fourth. However, he might go earlier than that. Remember, he will not clear a physical before the draft. That will hurt him a lot more than people think. Especially, since this is an ACL and meniscus. That is not a given soft tissue recovery. While guys can come back quickly, it is not the norm for an ACL. It is extremely unlikely he sees the field next year even with the new IR exemption. He had surgery in late January not September! The hard part is that surgery is very dependent on 3 things. The type of ACL surgery used, the skill of the physician, and the extent of the extra damage from playing on it for 4 months and wearing the meniscus with no help.

No team in their right mind would expect him to be ready to play in 2012. He just might be capable of doing it. But, he could really make that injury a chronic one if he messed up that meniscus. There will be no way to tell before the draft. He also may never be the same player movement wise after its healed. Way too many If's for most front offices to pick before the fourth.

However, you must also remember he is not going to be a scheme fit! Dude is a two gap NT! Not a 4-3 NT. He is not a one gap movement DT. That drops him even further on Den's board.

Thanks for answering my question. Del Rio is still utilizing two DT's, each playing a one gap, the difference being the larger guy is playing one of the A gaps as opposed to the B gap, n'ecst-ce pa?

I gotta admit it's confusing. Bleacher report suggests he uses two two gap guys, but that's not really what I recall. And, I've read other places that he's closer to the Jimmy Johnson 4-3, which is one gap and uses the DEs to funnel runs towards the mike.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 08:53 AM
Crick played DT at Nebraska, and was invited to the NFL combine as a DT, and will play at UT if a 4-3 team drafts him. If a 3-4 team drafts him, he will play DE.

Everything that Mayock or nfldraftscout projects, isn't true.

He was invited as a "DL." He is down to 275 pounds and has been shedding weight since the combine, and has dropped over 10-15 pounds since his junior season. He isn't going to play DT in the NFL. If you really think someone with a pencil thin base @ that weight is going to hold up at DT in the NFL, you are kidding yourself.

And I don't even have NFL Network and don't rely on NFL Draft Scout for anything. Thanks.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 09:06 AM
He is down to 275 pounds and has been shedding weight since the combine, and has dropped over 10-15 pounds since his junior season. He isn't going to play DT in the NFL. If you really think someone with a pencil thin base @ that weight is going to hold up at DT in the NFL, you are kidding yourself.


He was shedding weight to try to run below a 4.8 forty, and get as agile as possible. Crick may see himself as a Vanden Bosch type (due to his pass rush ability). DE's make more money. He doesn't have the speed to come off the edge in the NFL, and would have better value if he put on 15 lbs. and played on the inside. Mark Schlereth struggled to keep his weight up...Crick will have the same struggle, but it is doable, and he will have good size and effectiveness, if that is the route he goes. Crick at 290-300 lbs. would be a monster and a Pro Bowl UT, if drafted by a 4-3 team.

Speaking of "pencil thin bases", Worthy doesn't have the biggest bubble in the world, so I wouldn't be talking.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 09:10 AM
You watched all of Worthy's 14 games last night within twelve hours? Doubt it.

When did I say that? All there televised games, I watched, rewinded and rewatched and stared him down. I did the same for all note able DTs this year. Since Indy needed a DT I wanted to know who we're the best prospects.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 09:13 AM
Thanks for answering my question. Del Rio is still utilizing two DT's, each playing a one gap, the difference being the larger guy is playing one of the A gaps as opposed to the B gap, n'ecst-ce pa?

I gotta admit it's confusing. Bleacher report suggests he uses two two gap guys, but that's not really what I recall. And, I've read other places that he's closer to the Jimmy Johnson 4-3, which is one gap and uses the DEs to funnel runs towards the mike.

He used to run the two gap 4-3, with his DTs, he has since adopted to a more standard 4-3 with the over and under variations. But he infact ran the two gap 4-3.

bendog
04-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Yeah, I have no idea what del rio did early on - besides getting an idiot kicker to try and hack off a leg and there should be video of that - but he uses the A gap Fatty and the B gap DT (under tackle). And the B gap guy will be harder to find, with Cox the consenus best who will be long gone by the time Den drafts, and then Worthy, Still, Reyes .... and I'd guess the rating there is debatable. Reyes may have more athleticism.

But getting a DT who is really a force as a rookie is most likely not going to happen. Marcus Thomas can play the UT though he has no pass rush. I suspect he'll end up signing after Den's final cap figure is set. I think that's Warren's natl fit, though I thought and still think ... he's done. Marcus Stroud, late of a shoulder staff infection, might stop buy for a burger and beers.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/some-quick-and-speculative-observations-about-del-rio-and-the

pps, it does look like this is a very deep year for DTs in the draft. If Den can add a couple of guys to fit both positions, it's extremely likely they can find two guys in the draft to fit in a rotation with Vickerson or Warren of Thomas.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 09:37 AM
To be honest, I don't think it's easy to find either position for a 4-3. Because in the 4-3 the NT has to generate some kind of a pass rush, and the UT has to be solid against the run! Personally I think Cox would be a great UT, I'm not big on Worthy, and Still has health concerns. I prefer Still to Worthy, but he has injuries every year it seems. Reyes is a freak athlete, but I like him in the second round or after a trade down! Wolf could be a good UT as well as others. I just hope they don't reach @25 because DT is a need!

Requiem
04-03-2012, 09:38 AM
Speaking of "pencil thin bases", Worthy doesn't have the biggest bubble in the world, so I wouldn't be talking.

Ah, no.

DENVERDUI55
04-03-2012, 09:43 AM
Somehow I have this feeling that we won't address the DT position in the draft until later in the draft. We always have these type of debate threads only to be let down. Denver only likes has beens, injured projects, or guys that were drafted way to high and Denver hopes to get them out of their underachieving funk.

bendog
04-03-2012, 09:51 AM
I'm ok with EFX evaluating talent, but from what I've seen, there's simply more value in the second than at 25, though Still should "still" be there. Just saying.

part of me thinks just get out of the first rd.

Part of me thinks take the best 4-3 under at 25 and target a 4-3 NT in the second and move up to get him giving up either the 3rd or 4th picks, and then just go bpa after the 3rd

Rohirrim
04-03-2012, 10:01 AM
When did I say that? All there televised games, I watched, rewinded and rewatched and stared him down. I did the same for all note able DTs this year. Since Indy needed a DT I wanted to know who we're the best prospects.

I hope you're sharing your expertise with some Indy board as well, and not just wasting it here.

Requiem
04-03-2012, 10:25 AM
I'm ok with EFX evaluating talent, but from what I've seen, there's simply more value in the second than at 25, though Still should "still" be there. Just saying.

part of me thinks just get out of the first rd.

Part of me thinks take the best 4-3 under at 25 and target a 4-3 NT in the second and move up to get him giving up either the 3rd or 4th picks, and then just go bpa after the 3rd

Denver is not in a position to gamble and move down with a defensive tackle. Worthy and Reyes easily will be targeted at the end of that round. I think Thompson is going to go before Pick 50. I like Thompson, but do we make our first pick a two-down player?

It is a coin flip between Worthy and Reyes for me. I think the most we can gamble in a trade down is a few selections, otherwise we miss out on those guys and likely Still and have to resort to banking on second tier players to become immediate contributors in our defense.

It would be nice to get an additional third or something, but I'm just worried that if we trade down, we are in deep trouble.

Bmore Manning
04-03-2012, 10:32 AM
I hope you're sharing your expertise with some Indy board as well, and not just wasting it here.

What is that sarcasm

Drunken.Broncoholic
04-03-2012, 10:39 AM
I see 3 teams that I think will draft a DT before the 25. Carolina, Seattle, and Philly. Theres a few more that are hurtin at that position but these 3 may take DTs off the board. There's great value at 25 and trading down is a gamble.

Based on past drafts it would not surprise me at all if they don't draft a DT in the first, and take Stephen Hill at 25th. People laughed at me when I said we would draft Moreno when Orapko was the clear choice.

pricejj
04-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Denver is not in a position to gamble and move down with a defensive tackle. Worthy and Reyes easily will be targeted at the end of that round. I think Thompson is going to go before Pick 50. I like Thompson, but do we make our first pick a two-down player?
It is a coin flip between Worthy and Reyes for me.

Why not get Andre Branch? He fits the JPP, Justin Tuck mold...and has had phenomenal production throughout his college career. He has a good chance of being on the board @ 25.

...if he's not there, go with BPA, and draft Crick/Thompson/Wolfe in the 2nd...

bendog
04-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Denver is not in a position to gamble and move down with a defensive tackle. Worthy and Reyes easily will be targeted at the end of that round. I think Thompson is going to go before Pick 50. I like Thompson, but do we make our first pick a two-down player?

It is a coin flip between Worthy and Reyes for me. I think the most we can gamble in a trade down is a few selections, otherwise we miss out on those guys and likely Still and have to resort to banking on second tier players to become immediate contributors in our defense.

It would be nice to get an additional third or something, but I'm just worried that if we trade down, we are in deep trouble.

I don't really disagree. Reyes might be a reach at 26, but he's certain to go very early in the 2nd, imo. Athletically, he may have the most upside. So why screw around. But the pt I tried for is - I think at least one of Worthy Stills or Reyes will be there after 26. If they're all rated the same, what's the pt in not moving down? .... But I have no gripe with taking one at 26.

But more importantly, imo, is if Thompson's gonna hang around to 57, great. But, if not the 4th rd pick would move Den from 57 to 49 or 48. It'd cost the 87 pick to move all the way to the top of the 2nd, and that's a lot to give up. So, by suggesting Den might trade down to take the loser of the three way race between Worthy Stills Reyes, I was thinking to use whatever value that gave to move up from 57 in the second to get Thompson, and Den gets to keep the 108 in the fourth round.

I just think that hoping Thompson is there at 57 is too big a gamble .... assuming Den wants to come out with two of the top 7 or 8 DTs. So, they gotta find some value somewhere to move in the second rd. But how they do it less important in getting two of those guys.

Champman, Martin, Crawford and Crick all look to be around in the third, but I don't see much more than potshots in the dark there. But there should be some RB/Oline value with the 87, 108 and 120

pricejj
04-03-2012, 11:03 AM
Andre Branch @ 25

Dedhed
04-03-2012, 11:05 AM
Brockers is an NT and commands a double team
No he doesn't. He gets pushed all over the place, plays too high, ends up on the ground all the time, loses his gap, and lacks recognition.

He is tall, though.

Dedhed
04-03-2012, 11:07 AM
Speaking of "pencil thin bases", Worthy doesn't have the biggest bubble in the world, so I wouldn't be talking.It's now pretty clear that you've actually never seen Worthy.

bendog
04-03-2012, 11:30 AM
I don't get the love for Branch. With Ayers, miller and Doom, how does he fit?